Welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast, your guide to the White Tail Woods presented by First Light, creating proven versatile hunting apparel for the stand, saddle or blind. First Light Go Farther, Stay Longer, and now your host, Mark Kenyon.
Welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast. This week on the show, I'm joined by Kip Adams of the National Deer Association to discuss what very well might be the most important action you can take this hunting season, filling a doteg all right, welcome back to the Wired to Hunt podcast, brought to you by First Light and their Cameo for Conservation initiative, And as we are wrapping up the year, we need to talk about a very important issue,
something that is important for your future deer hunting. The habitat where you deer hunt, the odds of seeing a killing mature bucks in the future, the future of deer hunting as a privilege that we can participate in the future, of our ability to effectively manage deer populations here in America as hunters, rather than having some other group of folks or service manage deer. That's how important our conversation
is today because we are discussing antlerlus's deer harvest. Why it's becoming something that is increasingly of concern for folks within the deer hunting and conservation world. Why we are seeing deer harvest and antlerlass harvest in particular declining so substantially across many parts of the country. Why that's a risk, Why that's a problem, Why that could lead to worse deer hunting opportunities for you, and all those other things
I mentioned. All of this we discuss with my guest today, mister Kip Adams, the top dog when it comes to conservation.
Chief Conservation Officer I believe is his title at the Nation Deer Association, and he's going to detail for us all these things, explain why for almost all of us in the United States of America, other than a few areas of the northern reaches of the country where there are some lower deer populations, but most of the country we have a very very healthy deer population, if not too healthy, too many deer that are impacting the health of the deer herd, impacting the health of the habitat,
and impacting all of the things. So that's the game plan today, discussing why all that's of concern, Why that's a problem, and then how we can do something about it, discussing everything from you know, how to determine whether or not all of this applies to you and your property. That's a key thing. Which kinds of places do need increased dough harvest? Which places don't. I want to make
sure you can answer that question effectively. Number two, which dose should you be shooting the mature dough the young dough? How do you determine if it's a buck, fawn or a mature dough? How do you make sure that this is not a shed buck and it is a dough. All of these different questions we cover, as well as many others, and then finally we talk through some techniques, some strategies, from ideas for how you can fill those
ante list tags. So we're gonna talk why, we're gonna talk, how, we're gonna talk when, and hopefully gets you all up to speed on what you can do to make a positive difference as a deer hunter and also sharing the meat, sharing this other folks who might be in need as well. That is the plan. This is how we're gonna wrap up the year. It's going to be an important episode. If you have a week left of the season, two
weeks left of the season. I know some of you guys have more whatever it is, Please if this applies to you in your area, if you live in one of those places where you have those growing deer populations where not enough doughs are getting killed, please join me in participating in filling another dough tag or two. I know that I have goals of getting five plus more. We have an extended dough season this year in Michigan, so our season is going to go into mid January.
It is, and I'm gonna be participating right on through the gory end of it. Hopefully gonna put some more meat in the freezer, share some with some family and friends, and have a really good time on the way. So that's the plan. Without any further ado, here's my chat with Kip Adams. All right here with me back on the line is Kip Adams. Thank you Kip for being here.
Again, absolutely Mark, thanks for having me.
I always enjoy our chats. I always appreciate you making the time to do this, and today we are here with I think what's fair to say is an urgent call to action for anyone listening and I'm titling this episode. I think by saying something, by titling it as maybe the most important action you can take this hunting season. Something like that, Kip, And I'm curious, from your perspective, is killing an ant list deer filling an antlyst deer tag?
Would that qualify as one of the most important actions a deer hunter can take this season in your mind.
Absolutely, And there are certainly places across the white Tails range where deer herd, you know, we're very low and antelyst harvest is you know, a light harvest is appropriate, but those places are few and far between. Most places where we have white tails because of the reproductive rate is so high, it just necessitates that hunters fill more ant list tags. Then we've been filling across much of the
range over most of the past decade. So yeah, I agree with you, that's one of the most important things we can do to ensure the future. You know, we have a healthy deer herd next year and well into the future.
So this is something that I'm seeing pop up more and more with a sense of urgency from people in the whitetail hunting conservation community. Definitely from the National Deer Association and other agencies on the country related to deer organizations related to deer. This this kind of flashing red light saying we need to take more antlers deer, we need to shoot more does we need to manage the populations more. What's going on for people who maybe have
not been hearing this, who haven't been paying attention. What are these things that are making this so concerning where we are right now? And why has there been this increasing, you know, level of concern around if we're taking enough dos and people saying, hey, take more dos, take more dos?
I mean we and in the state of Michigan, our deer lead deer biologists sent a very explicit letter I think it was last year to all hunters in the state of Michigan saying like, hey, you have to start taking more does otherwise we will not be able to have deer hunting as a management tool in the way we are right now. So it's getting to a pretty serious level here. Now. Can you just catch people up the speed if they have not been paying attention to
this and not have been seeing this. What is causing this level of concern? Why is this becoming in the shoot.
Sure. Well, you know, as hunter is one of the most important things we can do is, you know, make sure that we harvest enough antalysts deer to balance deer herds with what our habitats can support. And that often is it odds with what hunters want to see. And I'm the same way when I go hunting, I want to see deer and if I can see a lot of deer, you know, that's fun. I get it, that's fun. So as hunters, you know, nobody wants to go and says, man, I hope I don't see very many deer today. Well,
we equate that to how many handless do we shoot. Well, if we shoot that deer, then there's fewer deer in the landscape, so we can't see as much. But the reality of it is we need to shoot appropriate numbers of antalysts deer to not have more than our areas can support, not as many as we want to see, because most areas cannot support as many deer as we
would like to see as hunters. So historically we did a great job shooting bucks and not shooting dos, and that worked really well when we were trying to recover herds across most of the range. And it's funny to think back. You know, nineteen ninety nine is the first year in the US that we shot more analysts deer than bucks. Now, I know a lot of your listeners weren't born in nineteen ninety nine yet, and there's a lot of new hunters that makes that sounds like ancient times.
But think about it. You know, we've been hunting white tails, you know, in the US almost one hundred years under you know, regulated hunting before we shot more dos in bucks. And that's really the whole QDM movement. That's when you know, the QDMA was was started. So hey, let's let's teach
people the value of shooting dough. So fast forward, Mark with a lot of the education from when we're out the year two thousand up to the year about twenty ten, hunters really answer the call and we're harvested more analysts deer than bucks every year through that time, which was great. For the first time ever, we were getting deer herds pretty much in balance with what our habitats could support.
That was awesome.
Well, somewhere around you know, twenty eleven, in twenty twelve, we had a couple of terrible hemorrhagic disease years. We had some other things going on where hunters had reduced deer herds. Other side of mortality kind of took over, and suddenly deer herds dipped a little bit in many places, and it scared the heck out of hunters. So that's when they said, WHOA, let's back off. And since the early twenty tens, we have just been harvested and fewer
and fewer and fewer analysts deer. That's what really brings us to where we are today because with everything, you know, that pendulum kind of swings, swings one way or man, we're harvesting a lot of analysts deer. Folks get nervous right now, it's kind of swung all the way to the other end where we're just protecting them too much. And as proof of this, we look at percentage of hunters in the US that are successful. A decade ago, it was about forty eight percent of all hunters would
shoot a deer annually. You know, that's just one. You know, most people think man hunters are going out where everybody's killing them old. The reality is over half of the hunters don't shoot a single deer. If you look at now today, that's only about forty percent of hunters are successful. So what's happening is hunters are just choosing not to shoot deer. This isn't a matter of there's no deer available, deer herds a two. This is hunters making conscious decisions.
I am not going to pull the trigger on in many cases that dough. So that's what's led us to where we are today. We're just harvesting deer at a lower rate at a time when deer herds are growing across most of the range. That's why you have more state wilife agencies than ever before today's imploring their hunters please take an ant list deer. So that's what really probably brings you and I to sitting together here this morning talking.
Yeah, so are there any I guess, what are the signs that this is actually happening? So I know people are worried about it. I know the state agencies are worried about it. Have we seen this in the actual harvest reports? I mean I believe we have, because I think you and I have talked about this during some of our deer or conversations. But it seems like this is now translating to lower harvest numbers in the states
that they're reporting. I think I've saw in Michigan like you said, or maybe this is something I was reading earlier today just about the fact that our deer harvest numbers have been going down dramatically in Michigan, like something like twenty five percent decline maybe last year or something along those lines. So this is translating. This isn't just like a vibes thing. This is like a real data thing too, correct.
That's absolutely right. And states are measuring this with reduced ante list harvest, and this is at a time mark we are at historically high buck harvest, So we are killing as many or more bucks today than you know that we have almost every year in the past hundred years. So what that means is that shows us that deer herds are continued to expand that's how you have more
bucks on the landscape. So we have actual data showing reduced antelyst harvest in many states, increasing buckharts in many states. That shows the deer herd is growing. We have reduced nutritional planes in many states. As they're collecting biological data on deer so they know, you know, kidney fat indexes showing deer going into winter with with lower fat levels,
body weights by age class dropping. There's lots of different indicators showing we clearly have more deer and in many places more deer than we have good, high quality food available. So yeah, there's you know, states measure this stuff differently, but you know many, many states that they have absolute solid data showing deer herds are growing like crazy. We're shooting fewer dose. We're not shooting fewer bucks, We're shooting fewer dos. And that's why we really have to You know,
it's fun to be shooting these bucks. That's awesome. I love too. Now's where the step is. Hey, as hunters, you know you got that, but like, that's awesome. Now, let's follow that up and make sure you get a dough or in many cases, you know, a couple of dose for each of those bucks that you're shooting.
Okay, so what does this look like if this trend continues? I guess what I'm getting at here. What I want to better understand is what is the risk of inaction if we don't change this trend? If the deer populations continue to swell and we as hunters cannot manage them in balance with the habitat and balance with the herd. What negative ramifications might be in store.
Well, first of all, if we're if we're not harvesting enough dose so that deer herds get too high. The first ramification is, you know, our deer herd health starts to suffer. They're just not getting you know, enough food to meet you know, their their growth requirements are certainly not to meet what their potential is. So that means body weights get smaller, means they can raise fewer fonds. It means anglers get smaller, you know, none of which hunters want. So that is the impact to deer. Then
there's the impact to the habitat. If there's more deer than there should be, our habitats become degraded and then they can it can hold even if you were deer in the future. So that's the bad part to habitat. All those other wildlife species out there that share that habitat with deer now they're negatively impacted. So it's negatively impacting those And then from a hunter end, you know, we continue to have higher crop damage dollar amounts because
of deer. We continue to have more other deer human conflicts like deer vehicle collisions, et cetera. So as those things increase, that just makes hunting become less important if we're not doing the job that we want. You know, only about four percent of our society hunts. You know, You and I are in the distinct minority in our kids, you know, and we don't get to do anything in this country because four percent of us want to do it.
And you hear people say it's my God given right to hunt, and man, I wish it was, but that's not true. We get to hunt today because between seventy five and eighty percent of American adults support legal, ethical, regulated hunting, and they support that even though most of those donut support it, because they see hunters providing that free service to society. Part of that, or a big part of that, is harvesting enough antlyst deer to keep
deer herds healthy. So as hunters, we want to do the best job possible to be providing that service to society so that we get to continue to do it, because if we don't, society is going to find an answer somehow. I'm doing everything possible every day of work to make sure that hunters are the champions and the ones that continue. So that's why we try to educate hunters on Hey, this is why it's in our best benefit to be shooting antlysts deer and be mentoring other
people and encouraging them to shoot analysts deer. You know, we're not looking to get rid of all the deer. We're just looking to harvest enough so that we have a deer herd in balance, whether it's habitat, so it's very healthy deer herds, healthy habitat, and then you know that is what will allow us to hunt into perpetuity.
Yeah, yeah, you know, it's what's concerning, or one of the things that's really concerning when you look down the road is what happens when whitetailed deer are looked at as more of a nuisance and a pest and a detriment than as a benefit to the natural world and to society. And all right, we've heard from many years, like insurance companies not wanting there to be so many deer.
Because of that, you're hearing more and more in city and suburban environments where deer are damaging not only cars and people's lives, but then also landscaping, whatever might be.
But I think a thing that's popping up more and more, at least in my world in areas that I'm reading about and studying, I'm reading more and more about people within the environmental community and the larger conservation world looking at deer as one of the largest detriments to biodiversity and ecosystem health across the country, as this vast overpopulation of deer is destroying important habitat types that are important to pollinating insects, or it's all these other critters that
need a healthy, thriving habitat. In areas where deer are overpopulated and we're not managing them, they're just crushing habitat, which then is impacting all these other at risk species. And like you said, if hunters aren't seen as a viable way to manage these deer in balance with the habitat, people are going to seek out other solutions and we
will lose our opportunities because of that. So I think you know you've seen some of these things happen in suburban environments and city environments where cities and townships are hiring sharpshooters to manage deer populations. I don't know what that's going to look like and if that will continue to scale in some kind of way if we don't
step up to the plate. But what are your thoughts on this biodiversity impact that I continue to read more and more about people looking at white tailed deer as a threat to many other species of wildlife because they're, you know, in some areas, just really leveling the vegetation. You see these browselines that are clearly define the lines across the landscape where there's hardly anything beneath it. Can you can you discuss that a little bit.
More sure, And that's absolutely true what you're saying. And you know that's one of the reasons deer are known to be a keystone species. They have the ability to negatively or positively impact, you know, the area that they're living. There's very few other species that can can impact it to that level. Beaver's are one example. You know, beaver can come in and absolutely change the habitat where they are. Uh, deer are at the top of that list because deer
are so good at surviving. Think about this deer, the oldest well white tails are the oldest deer species we have. You know, they've been around for over four million years. You know, they are good at surviving in many cases at the exclusion of other things that they share the area with. So you know, even if we do a poor job managing them, they continue to find a way to at least survive, maybe at lower levels than they are now, but they're going to continue now as they
do that. This is where they are negatively impacting that for all those other wildlife species are out there, and where this whole biodiversity concern comes in, you know, in that conversation. Conversely, you know, if we do a good job managing them, they can be the champion for everything else.
That's why the value of deer campaign, you know that we're so proud of in our spearheading now, is to let all those people out there that talk about the biodiversity or a concern to that that may not hunt, to make them aware of all of the positive things that deer provide in large part funding for our wildlife programs, you know, to protect all of those other species out there, butterflies and bees and non game and small game. So when hunters, when we get it right, Oh my gosh,
we are, you know, the champion of champions. Deer are the vehicle to make that happen. So as managers, let's we know how to put a game plan together, we need the hunters to implement it. And then when hunters implement it correctly by shooting appropriate numbers of analysts deer, man it is so good for all of that biological diversity.
When we fail to implement that part correctly, that's when it all starts to fall apart, and that huge segment of public that doesn't hunt starts looking at hunting in a negative light. So that's what we're trying to guard against here.
Yeah, and I think we're starting to see a larger proportion of our community recognizing the positive impact that we can have right on the larger natural world on the environment, especially those of us who are fortunate to have land that we can manage and improve. Like we've seen many of us have seen the absolutely tangible impacts we can have on the landscape by you know, improving the early successional habitat component or planning food plots, or managing timber
or whatever might be. All of those things help deer and they help all of these other creatures, and so many of us are starting to see the value there and how we can benefit the everything. We can benefit the biodiversity. But a really important piece, like one of the very most important things we can do, maybe more important than making some of these habitat improvements or just as is this dear antlelus harvest management component of it. If you just improve habitat but you're not managing the
dell population, you probably are. You know, you're missing out on a huge upside that could be there if you were to do both right. So they go hand in hand. Now, another thing here that I have heard increasingly getting bandied around, and something that I think is concerning to many hunters, is one of the more aggressive proposals that I have been hearing for those people within the government or otherwise trying to manage the deer population. People saying, hey, we
got to get these deer populations down. It's becoming dangerous, it's damaging the environment, it's etc. Etc. The idea of putting a dollar value on on deer again and allowing folks to monetize them, and opening up market hunting to some degree again to try to incentivize harvest can you speak to how viable that is? Is that? Is that? Is that a real threat? Is that actually possible down the line, and why is that concerning if it were to happen.
I think that it I'll answered the first question is is that a real threat? I think absolutely. You know, we have markets in wildlife in other places. You know, you're allowed to sell muskrat meat in Maryland, that's done all the time. We sell hides of fur bearers, we sell fish, so uh, you know, uh, deer are not
allowed in that. You know when we ended the whole market hunting back in the early nineteen hundred, you know, that's what saved deer populations and it's been such an integral part of our North American model of wildlife conservation. You know, no markets for that, well, there's always been loopholes around that, not for deer, but for other species. So is it a viable discussion? I think absolutely. I think it's something you know, that should scare the heck
out of a lot of hunters. You know, we have the opportunity to fix this right now that in my opinion, commercializing white tails would be a bad idea for the future of wildlife management. I don't think that's good. And I'm not somebody that's a traditionalist and just has to go by what we have done in the past. I am all about finding solutions and thinking out of the box. I just personally don't think that is a good one
for white tails, at least not now. You know, maybe in the future that may be necessary, but right now, I don't. I do not think that's a positive thing for deer or the future of our over wildlife management programs.
But it's absolutely something that's being talked about more and as the number of hunters that are at least the percentage of the US population the hunts continues to decline, that is something that would become a more real and real discussion and something that could absolutely be on the table for hunters in the future.
Yeah. So again another clear reason why we need to take control this issue now ourselves, rather than let somebody else take control of the narrative and put those kinds of solutions on the.
Table, right for sure, for sure.
Okay, So, one of the things that we always hear when the topic of antelus harvest comes up is well, there's no deer in my area or everyone already shoots all the dos where I am, or this will crush the deer population where I live. I'm not going to do that. How can someone determine whether or not this issue applies to them? How can you determine whether or not you should be harvesting antelus deer where you hunt?
Well, I think that you know, what hunters need to recognize is that all of our state wildlife agencies, you know, implement our hunting seasons, and they manage deer on a wildlife management unit or a deer management unit or deer management zone basis. You know, as hunters, we hunt at the property level. Our wildlife agens aren't managing deer at the level that we hunt. They're managing them on a
larger scale. And then we need to realize that in across those units, there are places where there's more deer than there should be. There may be some places where there's fewer deer than they should be in somewhere it's right about in balance. So that's where you have someone to say, there are no deer in my unit. Well
maybe there's no deer on your property. That's probably not true, but just understand that, you know what throughout that unit you're hunting in, there has been a lot of data collected by your state wilife agency, and that's why they have applied that harvest the level, whether you know it's moderate or high or whatever. So don't be arguing that that's wrong for that whole unit. Now within the property that you hunt on and pay I hunt at the property level, and so do you, and so do every
other hunter from that. There are ways to be able to figure out, you know, should I shoot any dose, should it be one, should it be multiple? And there's some scientific information that I can give you. The easiest thing mark is actually on our website, we have a dough harvest diagnosis. It's a page you can look at
and there's a bunch of questions. You just answer yes or no to each and at the end you count up the number of yes as the number of nos, and it tells you should you be harvested more deer in your area or not. So if folks want to go do that, that's an easy way to do that. But I will tell you, in general, across most of the white tails range, a good place to start is for hunters to be harvest in at least as many ante lists deer as they are bucks on the property
that they hunt. There's places in New England, there's places you know in northern Minnesota, Wisconsin or Nebraska with deer herds are you know, not real productive or at least not growing quick that you just simply can't harvest as many dos there. But that is not true for most of the white tails range. Almost all the white tails range, we need to be harvest in at least as many antalysts deer, and in most cases more antalyst deer than bucks.
Everybody can apply that right to your property level. If you're a hunt at your in Michigan camp, you know, when we shot five bucks this year, I will issue you should have been shooting more than five dos, and in many cases probably at least twice that many. My my hunting camp in northern Pennsylvania, our twenty year average is we shoot between three and four ant list deer for every antler buck that we shoot. And uh, and we have phenomenal hunting. You know, lots of folks say, well, man,
you know you guys shoot nice bucks. I wish I could hunt there. Well, you know, part of the good hunting is we work hard on the habitat, and we work really hard to shoot enough ante list deer each year, so you know those those go together. But that's a good place for folks to start. Start by shooting more does than bucks.
Where do we find that dough harvest diagnosis tool you mentioned on the website? It does go.
It is so at Dear Association dot com. There is there under I think it's under one of our programs or materials available. Gosh, it's been so long since I have looked on the side. I know we have it there, but it's on our site. It's a one page pdf that folks can grab. I've been to make it easy. Mark when I can do we get done here. I can send you there or email that to you if you want to include a link to it in the show.
Notes or something. But yeah, we'll have a link.
I'll make it available because that's a super easy way. If somebody says, hey, you know what I actually collect data? I do camera surveys or I scout a lot. A good rule of thumb is, if you want to stabilize a deer herd, shoot twenty to thirty percent of the dose each year, which means if you shoot fewer than twenty to thirty percent, that deer herd is likely going to grow. If you want to reduce the deer herd, shoot more than twenty to thirty percent of the dose.
So you know, say you do a camera survey and hey, I got ten dos using my property. If you shoot two or three, you probably keep that deer herd right there. If you shoot you know, four to five us a chance show you're going to reduce it. So that's a good rule of thumb as well. And that's what I have used. We do summer camera surveys on our Pennsylvania farm.
I have every year for over twenty years. That is exactly what I do to estimate, Hey, here's probably how many different bucks are using our farm during the year, and then this is how many doughs we're going to shoot. We go into every deer season with a plan and I tell all the guys hount in our land, you know, we're going to shoot you know, eight to ten dos this year. We're going to shoot you know, eighteen to twenty dos this year. So that comes from that camera survey.
Not everybody can do that, So that's why we also developed that dough harvest diagnosis sheet I mentioned, So you just go through it and answer yes or no, and then come up with with what your strategy should be.
Terrific And like you said, for probably three quarters of the nation, the answer is an obvious yes. Definitely for anyone in the bottom two thirds of my home state. Here in Michigan, I think you'd be hard pressed to find anywhere in this state other than the far northern reaches where there's just not a pile of deer in most areas that need this kind of action. But despite that fact, people my you know, I have friends and folks that I know who had the same questions, concerns,
or excuses for not shooting. Does beyond just well there's not enough. So you wrote an article recently for the NBA's website that covered some of these. I wanted to talk through a few with you, and one of them is something I've heard from people, which is, well, my state has such a crazy high bag limit. You know they they't like in Michigan. I think you can buy ten dough tags. They're trying to shoot every day deer
out there. All these deer must be getting killed. There's no way I should shoot a bunch of them because everybody else is, or you know that I've been hearing there's depredation tags being given out. I've heard of some farmers shooting fifty deer every year over here. I better not do it myself. Can you speak to that one a little bit?
Sure? And you know when I get it, You know, I'm the same way if I'm hearing what's going on in my town or down at the you know, the local bar or local coffee shop. You know, yeah, I heard Mark shot three and he had people over his private shot ten, and that story gets shared. Suddenly you wonder why there's any deer left in your in your whole township, the other gone. The reality of it is,
that's not true. The reality of it is, we monitor harvest success rates from every state in the country annually, and you know, less than half of the hunters that go afield any year shoot a single deer, and about half of those that do shoot bucks. You know, if you're only going to shoot one deer, many people prefer a buck, so most won't shoot any A good percentage shoot a bux, which means then there's a large percentage
that don't shoot any dough. So we share some data to show, hey, most people don't kill a single dough, even though you have the opportunities to kill multiple dose you know, all those years. The reality of it is most are not. So that's the first thing to let we try to share our folks, just to make them aware we're not making this up. Here's what the data actually says. You don't need to be afraid to shoot one because you think they're all gone or that they're
over harvested. You know, most people just simply aren't shooting that at all. So we try to make that available because if hunters see that and start to understand that, that's the first step to reduce in those barriers that maybe we can convince them to pull the trigger on a dough.
All right, here's another one. Well, I don't want to shoot a dough in the late season when we're discussing this right now, because that dough has already been bred by the big giant buck that I hope is running around out here, and I don't want to lose that future buck. I don't want the genetics from that big buck to disappear because I shoot the dough that he bred. What about that one.
I think from that one. I say, you know what, You're right, you should have shot that dough back in September or October. Then you wouldn't have had to worry about it. There's a lot of benefits to early antler this harvest, and I would love if we could shoot all the dos on us, you know, in October. The reality of it is that just doesn't happen. So we get into you know, the rut, and then we're postbruck.
From a biological standpoint, it makes absolutely no difference to that deer herd whether you shot that dough early in the year or after she had been bred. Think about like this. We know that a lot of the bucks out there get in and on the breeding, and in fact, research shows at about a quarter of all the twin fawns we see aren't real twins, they have different fathers. So we know that not only are a lot of bucks breeding, we know that some does are bred by
multiple bucks. So between that we know and the other research done on actual antler growth and who's siren who, But from a hunting standpoint, mark we can't do anything to impact antler genetics in the wild. We can absolutely impact antler growth by making sure that there's not too many deer for anaria, and making sure that bucks are getting into older age classes. Those are two things that
hunters can do every single day. We can do absolutely nothing about the actual genetics of what those those faons have, you know, from the sires. So from that, if somebody is saying, man, I don't want to shoot a dough now that's bred from it, maybe have bred by the biggest buck, you don't know, that probably was not bred by him. And even if he was, you don't that's not a guarantee that that faon will have big antlers
if it is a buck fund. So that doesn't even need to come into you know what, the conversation at all.
So I want to reiterate or have you reiterate something you said there for those people listening who are really fired up about big giant bucks, they can't influence how many big giant bucks they're going to have by shooting call bucks. Because we've talked in the past about how the as you just said, we can't really influence genetics. You can't influence it by making sure that the genetics of a certain buck are passed on by not shooting
a dough. But there was something you did say could influence the antlers of future deer, which is making sure there's not too many deer in the landscape. Right, that's correct.
Age is the biggest influence for antler size, just letting them get old enough to express what their potential is. The next biggest thing is just nutrition, making sure they you know what, And I will say this, I've been blessed to travel across the country actually and across the world to talk about white tails and work with white tails. In almost every place I have been, those deer would have been benefited from more nutrition, even in Southeast Ive.
I have been in some of the best whitetail country in the world that grows some of the biggest whitetails, and in those areas, those bucks could be even bigger if there were fewer deer there and they had more food. So, as hunters, we do that by enhancing habitat and by shooting dos so that we reduce the number of miles competing for that good food that we provide.
Yeah, all right, moving down the list, how about well, I don't want to shoot does right now or at any time of year, because I don't want to accidentally shoot a button buck, which will then be my future booner that I'm working towards and spending all this money on improving habitat for and got all my fancy hunting gear to shoot. I don't want to shoot my bucks by accident. What do you say to someone who's worried about that, and how can we prepare? What can we do to ensure that doesn't happen?
I think one tell them, hey, thank you for at least considering shooting an analyst deer. Thank you for being cognizant enough to understand the difference between buck vah dough fonds and adult doughs, you know, and try to do a better job from a manager standpoint, and shoot a dough as opposed to a future buck, because by passing buck fonnds, yes, you can have more bucks on the landscape. But also by shooting that adult dough you are doing a better job helping manage that deer herd by reducing,
you know, one of the breeding females. So that is all very good. There's nothing wrong with being concerned about that. In fact, it shows that you have a little more respect for that deer herd and want to do a good job as a steward. Now I'll say this, there is nothing wrong with shooting fonnds. Absolutely nothing wrong with either buck fonnds or dough funds. So you know you
don't need to feel bad about that. And there's a great rule of thumb that shows you know, all of your antlers harvest, as long as about ten percent of that are buck fawnds, you're totally fine. You're not negatively impacting the future of that at all. Now, if fifty or sixty percent of your handlers harvest are buck fonnds, you are absolutely going to negatively impact what you have. But as long long as you keep that total antless harvest to about ten percent buck fawns or lower man,
there is nothing wrong at all. So know that going in. Okay, now I see some ant let this, dear, how can I do the best job picking out or making sure one is a dough and not a fawn. Well, if you shoot them earlier in a year, it's easier to tell because there's a greater size difference.
I like that.
But now, man, those buck falls can be about as big as some of the adult does, particularly the one and a half year old doze. So with that, there's a couple of things we can look at mark from a physical standpoint and a behavioral standpoint that will help us. So from a physical standpoint, fawns are still a little smaller, but if we look at the bodies, like and if you're seeing broadside deer an adult dough, if you look at the space between her front legs and her back legs,
it is rectangular. That same area on a fawn is more square because they're just not as long as a dough. That's why it helps having multiple deer available, because just looking at one you can be tricked pretty easily, but if you have two there to compare, that makes it a lot easier. If we can see their head, the distance from a fawn's forehead to its eye is about the same as it's eye to its end of its nose, so that if you look at then's whole head in profile,
the eye is about right in the middle. An adult dough, the distance from her forehead to her eye are shorter than the distance from her eye to her nose. You can see that long and I have identified so many antlests here as a dough or a fawn based solely on looking at that heads from the side. If we see them from the front, a fawn's ears appear larger relative to its whole head than a doze, so we can use that as well. So ears, face, and body.
There's three things from a physical standpoint that we can help differentiate between those two even before we get to any of the behavioral stuff. So those are all great indicators from a physical or a behavioral standpoint. Then we can watch how they interact. Fawns are less wary than adults, so they're almost always the first deer that shows up at a food source, particularly a food plot or some
other area that doesn't have much cover. Maybe you're in a you know, helping some oak woods and there's a big open oak flat. You know, hey, they're often the first one's in there as well. So seeing the first deer come in, waiting the harvest on that one, you know, until another one is present, can help you pick an adult dough or Hey, if you want to shoot a fawn, you know you can bet that you know what the first one in there is a good chance it is
a fun if you have multiple deer there. Now you can watch not only the size, but behaviorally as well, who appears to be in charge. Oftentimes adult doughs will go over, you know, and it can either smack a fond to remove them from an area, or the faun will follow the dough and it's very clear kind of who's in charge. So we can watch some of that behavior as well and do a really good job identifying that. And from that, the last thing that we can look
at is if we see the head shape. Even without antlers, bucks have a very flat head, So whether a buck that has shed its antlers or a buck fawnd, it's very flat between the ears. Dose have rounded heads, so it's really really easy to tell that when they're in summer coat. It becomes a little more difficult in winter coat. But if we study and we can still see that. So that's a great way to differentiate buck fawns from dough faunds, buck fawns from adult does, or even bucks
that have shed their antlers from adult does. So with a little bit of study, and I will say this, it makes that way easier if we have some good optics. So you know, don't go hunting without your binoculars. You know, I never leave home without my vortex binoculars, and I spend more time in them than I do my scope, and I confirm what's going on there before I go to my scope. So good optics really help. Not shooting in real low light situations can help, or waiting until
there's better light can certainly help that as well. So, you know, there's things that we can look at on the deer, there's things we can observe from deer, and there's some things we can do from a hunting end as well to all, you know, improve the chances that we're shooting adult dose and not buck faonnds or any fond or even shed bucks.
Yeah. So on that shed buck topic, that's another one that people are worried about. So the obvious thing, as you described there, was to make sure to check out that head with your buy no's and carefully study the forehead, but from the body perspective or anything else when it comes to determining or differentiating a mature dough from a shed buck, are there any other things you would recommend looking for?
Yeah, and that is a legitimate concern as well. And I'm very cognizant when I'm hunting in late December or January of watching an antlyst deer to make sure it's not a shed buck. So one, I am making sure that I use my optics like we just discussed. Two, I am watching structurally on that deer bucks at that time of the year. For most of the white tails range. You know, my buddy's down in Alabama and Louisiana and
the place is at rut really late. This is a little different for them, but for most of the ear else of the country. You know where our buck's rout in early to mid November, late season, once they have shed. Structurally, looking at them, they are off and just thin looking. They are rectangular between the front legs and back legs
like the dose we talked about. But they tend to be slim because you know, they just don't eat much during the rut, and there's a lot of data the shows you know, they'll lose twenty to twenty five percent of their body weight during the rut, so they can get pretty slim. That's why a food sources. You know, they're trying to eat all they can to put on anything possible, you know, before we get into the full winter. So looking at them, if you're looking at a deer
late seas I clearly see it's an adult. Can't really see the head good, but just looking at the body, if that body looks pretty round or pretty fit, it's probably a dough. It's probably not a buck that's gone through the riggers of the rut. Conversely, if you look at it and go, now, that looks a little slim, there's a better and an average chance show that that can be a buck or it's a dough that's just really nutritionally deprived. But that's something that I use Behaviorally.
Those bucks still act a little different from the does. You know, once they lose their ramtlers, they know they don't have them anymore, so they're not as apt to you know, fight another buck. But they still often act to be a little bit in charge, you know, over the does. So if you see a bunch of deer, particularly in you know, say a food plot or maybe you have corn and you watch a deer come in, that just seems to look like attitude is a little more in charge or just kind of in many cases
that is a buck that shed their antlers. You know, they don't often lose that whole attitude, you know, when the antlers are going on, So just behaviorally there some you can as well, But if I'm hunting in I am just really really studying is that head flat or not, and trying to pick up on those other cues, because you know, man, a buck that makes it through, you know, into late season, if he has shed his antlers from whatever, you know what, I don't want to be shooting him either.
I want to make sure I'm putting my tag on a dough, so I take extra care and I'm extra cautious that time of the year.
Is tarsal gland stain something that can reliably help you differentiate it all at that point in the year.
That's a great point. Sometimes. Yes, bucks and doze will rub urine eight year round. They will do that. They just tend to do it a lot more during the rut and bucks tend to do it more during the rut than dose. So once they're they're testosteron levels start drop in and they're out of the ruck, they're not rub urinating as much, but you still will see that dark tarsal staining on bucks, and particularly older bucks that have rub urinated a lot. It hangs around there a
lot longer than it does and does. So it's not an absolute telltale sign every single time, but that's a great suggestion mark and one thing that you can use, you know, as one more clue to Hey, is that likely a buck or is that more likely a dough? So yeah, that's a really good tip.
Yeah, okay. So another question, and this one isn't whether this isn't so much a should you hunt dose or not? This is a Okay, I've decided I'm going to start hunting. Does one of the other questions that you get is Okay, which dough is the best to shoot? Because a whole pile of them just came out into the cornfield er just came out in front of me in the clearing, and I've got a whole bunch of different ones. I
see some big ones, I see some little ones. I see one with two fawns, I see one all by itself. What is the best dough to shoot? If I want to try to make an impact on the herd as we are discussing, if I want to help manage the dough herd to bring down that population or at least stabilize it, what dough should I be shooting?
The older does tend to be better mothers. So if you're they tend to recruit more fonds. So if you're looking at reducing the deer herd, shooting an older dough can help the most. However, we can't estimate age of dose on the hoof like we can bucks, so that's a very very difficult thing to do. So what I tell people to do is and this is exactly the
advice that I follow. If I am looking at a group of deer and I've identified, you know they're all does, or there's doze and fawns, or you know, all the deer at least all the adults there are dose, I am picking the biggest one out. I am shooting the biggest dough in the group. That is more likely to be a dough as opposed to a fawn. It's going to harvest deer from across the wide range of ages.
The biggest deer there is not necessarily the oldest. I have seen two year old dough win big dough contest. I'll see in three year old dough, four year old dough, five year old dough. Kind Of like humans, some of
us tend to get a lot bigger than others. Some just don't grow as big, so by harvest and the biggest dough in the group, you're going to get the most meat for the freezer, which is good, minimize the chance of harvesting a fawn, and then you're going to then also help harvest deer from across the whole range of age classes, which is really good for the deer hurt. Maybe as an individual landowner that's not important, but overall
that's very good. So that's my advice. And if the biggest deer there was guaranteed to be the oldest, that's great. But since we can't figure out which is the oldest, sometimes behaviorally you can watch interactions in the more dominant one tends to be the older one. But a very easy piece of advice that I think across the board works really well is pick the biggest one out so that you can put the most meat in your freezer.
Yeah, I've read recently about study came out somewhat recently about the possibility of there being super does being does that are disproportionately impacting the population? Is that something you can elaborate on at all? Have you have you seen that?
I haven't seen that. I'm guessing they're probably talking about ones that are recruiting more fonds maybe or just tend to be better mothers, you know, because they would have larger impacts, you know, on the on the deer herd. So there's no doubt some do a better job recruiting fonds. All of them, ninety nine percent of them are going to be bred. Most of them will then be able
to deliver fonds. Some just are do a better job recruiting them, and recruiting means they keep that phone alive till they're six months of age and they get into the fall deer herd. The most dominant does get the best fawning areas. Oftentimes, the best fawning areas are the ones that they are able to recruit the most fonds from because it's where they can hide best from predators. It's where you have the best food available to the
mother to feed that fond. So some of that mark is that they just have qualities that make them better at protecting fonds. Some of it is they're just the dominant dough in an area, solid they have all of the things stacked in their favor to be able to actually recruit those fonds, you know, and nutrition is a big thing there. If you take a phone, I mean a dough on an area, the dominant dough, big healthy dough. Take the quality of the milk that she's feeding her fon.
The quality of that is exactly the same as the most nutritionally deprived dough on that area. One is not better than the other. The difference is that dough that has a bunch of food produces way more milk for her fond So that fon will grow much faster because they have a lot more resources, They grow faster, they grow quicker than others. They are faster at an earlier age than others, so they're better able to avoid predators,
and they tend to be bigger in the fall. So that's why it's important for us to make sure that we don't have too many miles on the landscape, because then dose can actually raise more fawns. Every other fawn on average is a buck fawn because they're born at about a fifty to fifty ratio. So for people to say I want the most bucks, I say, you know, God bless you, I do too. I like to see bucks and that keeps people hunting. Do that by shooting enough does so the dos are as healthy as popular.
That's when they can recruit the most fawnds. That's how you recruit the most bucks on the landscape. So, man, when we do things right, it all works out good to benefit us. And I believe the hunters want to do things right, So sharing information like that with them can help convince them of the need and the benefit of shooting a dough.
Now, speaking of fauns, a lot of people have worries or questions about shooting a dough with fauns. So we're sitting there in the tree stand and a mature looking dough and two fawns step out into the open in front of you. What are your thoughts for someone who is faced with the shoot or don't shoot question at that point, because some people have worries about.
That, Absolutely, no great question. Most of our fauns in the northern half of the US anyway, where where deer are writing in November. Most of the phones are born in May and June. That means they are wienable by mid to late August. By ten weeks of age, they're wienable. They could live on their own. Now, we don't have deer seasons in August, partly because of that, by the time our deer seasons start, those fawns are totally fine to make it on their own if they have been orphaned.
So what I tell people is there is no biological concern of harvesting that dough. Those fawns will survive, or at least there's a good chance that they're going to survive. The only time I would be hesitant is if those fawns still have spots. If it's a spotted fawn, man, there's a lot of benefit to leaving that mother with him for a longer period of time. Now, obviously that dough will continue to help them avoid predators in that, you know, but we don't need to worry about most
of that for the most part. If the fawn is spotted, don't shoot that dough. Give it fawn more time with it. But if you're into deer season, that fawn, you know, is not spotted, It is eating vegetation, it is going to group up with other deer anyway, there is no
biological concern with shooting the mother. Now, if it just makes you queezing and say I just don't want to do that, I understand that, go ahead and shoot a different do but understand, there is nothing wrong with you or somebody else shooting that dough that has fawns with her. It's not even guaranteed they're both her fawns because fawns
grouped together. And there's some research out of Pennsylvania where they trapped deer and did DNA work and in many cases the fawn or fawns that walk in with that dough, they weren't hers. They weren't even related to her, you know, maybe they lost their mother so they just grouped up with her. So it's not a guarantee that you're shooting, you know, their mother. It's just a dough in that area. So nothing wrong at all with with with harvesting that adult dough.
All right, So I'm convinced I need to do more to manage the antler list deer population in my area. I'm gonna go out there and shoot doze. But I've listened to seventy two podcasts from Wired to Hunt about how to kill big mature bucks. Nobody ever tells me how to kill big old doe. Can I get Kip Adam's top three tips for killing a dough in the late season, since that's what we're talking.
Sure, I'm hopeing a bunch of folks have shot them early. If you haven't, it's not too late. We still have season so one. Once this run is over, you know, doze now are looking also to get as much food as they can getting into winter, so food sources are an awesome time in the rut, those doughs are often and heavy cover just trying to stop from being harassed by bucks. So you know, hunting really heavy cover is often advantageous. That's where we want to be in many
cases to catch those cruising bucks as well. But the rud is pretty much over, winter is getting you know, setting in dose. Need to feed as much as possible, so food sources are perfect. If you have anything left in food plots, if you have opportunity to hunt agricultural fields, if you have an opportunity to hunt mask crops, if you're in an all wooded area, find the mast, you know, if there's any acorns left, any beech nuts left, they
want that. If not, find areas in wooded areas where or wooded situations do you know that have a bunch of young seedlings. They need those buds, so they're going to do as much as possible to maximize calories that they can take in. So I'm hunting food sources like crazy late season. That is where we stand the best chance to cross paths with a dough beautiful.
Have you ever tried any outside the box tactics to fill a dough tag? Do you ever call? Do you ever decoy? Do you ever I don't know, slip around, spot and stock, anything that's a little outside of the norm. Is there anything like that worth considering?
I No, I don't know that I've ever called in a dough in late season. I often continue to call while I'm hunting. I was running this past Friday night when I was sitting with my nephew in Pennsylvania. Our run is mostly over, but hey, there's still some dose or some bucks that are interested in that. So I think it's fine to call anytime. Deer communicated a much higher level through you know, sounds than many hunters realize. So I have never called in a dough late season.
I don't know that that's one of, you know, the most likely things to call in, but I wouldn't be afraid to try it, you know, just because of the amount of time that they do communicate. I think spot and stock is totally fine. So I would be very careful because this time of the year in much of the white tails range, it gets loud to try to sneak around. It's either you know, krusty snow or we have ice or whatever. So I would be very careful
along those lines. But I wouldn't rule that out. I'm thinking food first, and whatever I can do to get myself in a position to catch one on food or you know, or move into food as what I would do. I would not be afraid at all. And actually I would encourage people to set up outside that are different stands that you have hunted most of the season in. You've probably spooked some deer from those stands though, are aware of where they had been, you know, chased, So
get into other areas. Maybe try take a saddle, you know, and hunt out of a saddle in a place you haven't hunted from this year. Maybe even just get out and stand by a tree or sit in an area.
Maybe you can't hunt as long as we would have earlier, so you know, maximize later in the morning catching deer leaving food or just before an evening, you know, but try spots that you haven't spooked deer from during the course of the year, and you know, hit them from a new area like that can can be a great suggestion.
Yeah, you know, one of my favorite things to do in the late season part of the year, when I'm focused just on dos is I will take the anything is better than nothing approach. So i might not be able to get out for a full morning hunt or a full evening hunt, but I've got from eight thirty to nine thirty in the morning after breakfast that could just slip out maybe. So we've got these late firearm
seasons across many states these days for analyst deer. So I might say, well, I'll have breakfast of the family and then I'm going to go out for just an hour with the gun, and I'm gonna go walk the edges of some fields. And oftentimes that's not going to work when you're trying to hunt for one specific mature
buck or something. But if you're trying to shoot any antelust deer, you might happen to catch that dough that's still feeding just before stepping into the woods on the edge of the bean field, or you might actually catch one when you glass over the hilltop and see that there's one just inside of the cover about to bed down, and you can sneak within one hundred yards or whatever.
I found those little kind of get it in while you can kind of opportunities that are outside of the box end up sometimes being possible when you're targeting antlers deer and are really fun and when you're trying to do whatever you can to fill an antlyst tag and do your management responsibility. It's a great way to make it happen when you maybe don't have all the time in the world, or you're trying to fit it in
between different things. Those types of things are possible when it's this kind of hunt.
I agree. And you know the nice thing is is once deer seasons are done and hunters have left the woods, you know, after a few days or a week, you know, deer often start resuming some normal movement patterns anyway, So it's a great opportunity for that, you know where that may not have happened at the end of your rifle season, but you know, hey, it can happen now. Another benefit of that is, man, you have a perfect opportunity to.
Do some postseason or at least Yeah, it's not postseason, but late scouting to see where deer are moving, you know, once all the hunters will leave, and so yeah, you know, I think that you get some information to help you next year, as well as provide an opportunity to shoot an antlerus deer late.
Yeah, or maybe even a buck late if you still have your buck tag. Maybe you've already shot some antlous deer and you're trying to add another one or still can fill your buck teck.
Yeah, this is a great time to try something new, that's for sure. What about the situation where somebody says, well, you know, I already killed a buck this year, and my I only need one deer worth of meat in the freezer. Or maybe they kill two deer and they don't need to they don't need any more meat. So this person who has a full freezer and they're saying, well, yeah, I would do this, I would shoot some does, but I just I don't need to. I don't need to eat it. What do you say to that person.
I think there's a bunch of folks that fall in that category, And I say, you know what, we have a perfect opportunity to help feed others today in the us about one in seven households or food insecure, you know, I mean, and they don't have enough meat. This is a perfect way for a hunter to shoot a dough which helps that deer herd, and then donate that to a needy family. Maybe it's a somebody down the street, maybe it's a friend or family member, can take it
to a soup kitchen. There are many venison donation processors across the country that can take that and get it into the food bank hands, and so that that is a great thing that makes the hunters look like a champion of society.
You know.
Society loves it that we're solving this antlust deer under harvest problem at the same time feeding people. You know, and I get it, Mark, there's a there's a bottleneck today with fewer processors than there used to be. I see it in my state of Pennsylvania. I know it's in your state of Michigan and elsewhere. We have met with a lot of state wildlife agencies about this issue and where are trying to develop a national map of where venison processors are located. Pennsylvania is done, so we
started in my home state of Pa. We have that map now and are starting to add other states to provide a resource for hunters. Hey, here's a place you can take a deer to have it, you know, processed. We have on those listed on there. Hey, these ones are involved with venison donation program, so it doesn't cost you anything to leave that. So I think this is going to be a tremendous resource for hunters because a lot just don't know where to go, you know, particularly
we lose more venison processors. So we actually are working on trying to get some federal funding to increase the number of processors that are available to hunters, but then simultaneously making the current ones that are available, put it on a map to make at a resource for hunters to see where they are. So if you, even if you're Freezer's full, I promise you there's somebody in your community that can use it. Get with an NDA branch
in your area. We can help find a home for or your state Wildlife agency or your state venison donation program. Somebody needs that, it needs it desperately, and as a hunter man you can you can be the winner and provide that for Yeah.
So whether it be to get some information as you just described regarding processors, or finding that deer diagnosis, the dough harvest diagnosis one sheeter you mentioned, or connecting with an NDA branch, or becoming a member. All of these things I know are over on the Deer the National Deer Association's website. Can you tell folks where to find that, how to get involved anything else you want to leave folks, let's.
Say, sure, you can go to Dearassociation dot com. We provide all kinds of information there for for hunters. You know, research information, hunting information, recipes, you know, the dough diagnosis, harvest and all kinds of other stuff. You know that that's all there for the take, and we encourage folks to grab it. Sign up to be a member. There's there are different levels of membership. Our paid membership provides all kinds of discounts to some awesome hunting industry items.
If you don't want to be a paid member, we have a free membership as well, which gets you our weekly newsletter to keep you up to date with all kinds of good information. So there's lots of ways to be able to get involved and uh, you know, if if you want to do something positive for the future of our deer herds or our hunting heritage. Man being being a National Dear Association member is the perfect place to start.
Terrific Kip. As always, I really appreciate your time. Thanks for chatting all right, good to see you.
My friend's great day.
All right, and that's gonna do it for us. Thank you for joining us, Thanks for being here. Hope you had a very merry Christmas. Happy holiday, is a wonderful time with your friends and family. Best to luck out there in the woods. Good luck filling some more dough tags. Let's keep the keep that momentum moving. Let's get some dos on the ground. Let's fill the freezers. Share it
with folks, make a positive difference for the environment. Keep our ability to manage deer within the world of deer hunters, rather than having some other entity. You have to do it. We can control the situation, We can influence this situation. We know the solution. We just got to get out there and do it. So here's to having a great antalyst season and until next time, stay wired to hunt.