Clay Travis talks with Kirk Herbstreit

and joining the series of Wins and Losses. If this is your first and we're about to talk with Kirk curb Street, I think you guys will really enjoy going back and checking out a lot of our other guests, whether it's Shant Terry who founded seven Sports and Rivals, Paul Findbaum, Mike Leach, Dan Wetzel, Yahoo Sports national columnists. We have been all over the place, Jason Whitlock talking to a lot of different people in the world of sports, media,

politics and business. And today we bring in Kirk hurb Street, a fellow Nashville and at least for the past several years, but he has been I would say, the face of college football all for basically the last twenty years. And Kirk, I appreciate you you coming on with us, and I want to start back when you were growing up in Ohio and I know your dad is a college football coach.

If I could have gone back in time when you're eighteen years old and about to go off to Ohio State and say, one day you will be the face of college football. Would you have thought that meant that you would win two or three Heisman Trophies or would you have thought that it might be media related? Man, First of all, it's it's great to be with you. Always enjoy our team, the chance to talk to you. Um, if you would have said that for me, you got to go back now. That would have been in the

in the mid the late eighties. You know, there was no such thing as the Internet, there's no such things as social media. So you have to kind of go way back and and and appreciate where we were in that in that time. So if you would have said that to me, I would have definitely thought because it back then it was Keith Jackson and it was just

everybody else. You know, there was there was just if there was a game on Saturday, you know, you kind of watched that game and there might be a few other games on, but you really they really weren't kind, they didn't really resonate, And so I would have definitely said, if I'm the face of the sport I would have had there have won the Heisman or national championships and and let Keith Jackson call my games, you know, to be able to be on the cover of s I

you know kind of thing. But man, it's incredible how much you know, and I know you can really appreciate this being in the media. It's just incredible how much things have changed from you know, when you when you just had a handful of college football games and teams like Notre Dame or Tennessee or Home State, those big brand names had such a distinct of advantage because they all their games typically maybe we're on TV even if they were regionally televised, whereas now, I mean, geeze, like

everybody's on TV every weekend. There's probably four of your fifty games. Uh that that at your fingertips. So it's just a different world that we all live in today. All right, let's go back to you as a kid growing up. Uh, And we'd like to start, like for people out there who are listening for the first time or if you just come in, the concept is wins and losses and kind of going through how you end

up where you are. And obviously you are in and have been in a prominent position in college football for a long time. But growing up, were you a guy who played every sport imaginable? Was football your first to love? How would you kind of assess your coming of age when you were playing sports growing up? I was. I was a seasonal depending on the season was my sport. So if you asked me what was my favorite sport in the spring and the summer, I would have said baseball,

we had it out, is my favorite sport. And then is the the leaves changed and the football's came out. I was not only playing football like on a team I started in fifth grade, but I was I was big into backyard football, you know. I mean we would and I was always organized, and I get the lawnmiller out and I cut the lines, you know, in the in the to make the field, and I mean there was a lot of work that we went into our backyard football games that I played in. And my parents

divorced when I was about eight or nine. So I was trying to explain this to my boys because they've they've had a lot of more stability in their life other than we moved from Ohio to Nashville. But I was trying to explain to them, Guys, you have to imagine, you know, you went to basically to school. You went to an elementary school and to a to a high school. I said, I probably moved from the time I was in second grade until ninth grade. I'll probably moved five times,

five or six times. I moved around a lot. Um but one thing, and I was a shot, very very shy kid. Um painfully shy, Like my face would get really red and he was embarrassing, and people would kind of laugh and laugh at me because my face would get so red. And the one constant that I had the kind of let me because I was imagine being a quiet kid and and moving a lot. That's a

hard thing on a kid. And the one thing that that kind of gave me a chance was was gem and recess because I could at least hold my own in those areas whenever we had, you know, a chance to be outside to play. And so for me, I had no idea what I was doing, um as I was moving around and being kind of the shy new kid. But thankfully playing sports kind of opened up doors for for me at least meet friends. In fact, it's funny when I go back and see people in high school,

especially teachers. They cannot believe that my job is speaking of millions of people on Saturdays now, because because I wouldn't get up, I wouldn't get up in front of class and give a speech. I would just take a zero. Like I'm literally would just not do it. I was terrified to get up in front of the class to give a give a speech. And now it's ironic that I'm obviously doing what I've been doing for the last years.

How did you overcome that? Because there's a lot of people out there, you know, they had the I think Seinfeld had their routine where he said, like, uh, you know, they're the biggest fears in life. Number one is public speaking.

Number two is death. And he's like, so, if you had to choose, you know, like doing the eulogy for a lot of people is worse than being the guy in the casket, right like in terms of fear, which is funny to think about, but I'm sure there are a ton of people listening to us right now who have that fear. You know, standing up in front of people and talking is just such an overwhelming experience. I

was having this conversation with my oldest son. He's eleven, and he was terrified to do the school spelling be because he didn't want to stand up in front of everybody and have to spell right. And I feel like there's a lot of kids out there, certainly who have been in that position before. So you talked to millions of people now. I think the biggest audiences that have ever watched college football games have watched the games that

you call. How do you go from complete fear stage fright too, being so comfortable on the stage like you are now. I have no idea other than I'm doing something I love, I tell you. I think being the quarterback at Ohio State, especially my senior year where I was voted captain, and when you're the captain in school like that, you're you're kind of a mouthpiece, not just for yourself, but a lot of times for the team.

So you know, these a lot of these sec big ten media luncheons, you know, when I was a senior, I went to that and that was really the beginning of me maybe getting comfortable in my own skin because you're sitting there and there's fifty microphones in front of your face and ten or fifteen different cameras around you, and that became a kind of a weekly occurrence for me, um where you would just kind of wold court with the media and it was all impromptu, just kind of

winging it um, you know, with the media. After you know, certain practices during the week, they would open it up to the media, and a lot of times I was kind of the guy that would go out and talk to him. And I think just by doing that, it got me to get really comfortable um in in speaking. And what I found was I got more and more comfortable with my job speaking on air where there was a local radio, initially in Columbus and eventually at ESPN. But if you asked me to speak in front of

forty people, I would be really uncomfortable. So I found that was even in my probably I could speak and sending millions of people on TV and be hey, but if I got in front of thirty people or forty people and I had to stand up in a room and speak, I would go back to being a kid and having that fear. And I the only thing I can think of that allowed me to overcome it, as

we're just speaking right now, is repetition. You know, just the more I did it, the more I got comfortable with it, and I get asked to do those quite a bit, and I kind of have a rule with my agent said, you know, especially with family at home, as much as I travel in the fall, and it's just something I have to do, I'd rather pass on all of those kind of requests because it's not worth the turmoil to this day that I go through um

to give to travel somewhere to give a speech. I'd rather just be at home and hanging out with my kids, my wife than deal with it. So I don't if I've quite overcome it. I'm more at ease with it than I have been in the past because I do it so much. But I don't know. I don't know if I'm that guy that's like, oh it's easy, no problem, just stand up there, you know, you just talk. You know, I'm not you seem to hear that guy. You You seem like you could get up in front of anybody

and and give a speech. I'm just not that guy, and I'm I'm eating to this day. I do it, but I manage it. I don't thrive or like really enjoy it. You know what's funny is I think I had that fear and and have for a long time. Um, but I just got so used to it. And it's interesting because it is such a fear. Um. I noticed it in high school, like I was the student body president. I would have to get up and talk in front of the students, and I feel like that was where

it kind of I got used to it. And I really don't think about it at all now in any way, And I don't know, I think that that is interesting, the repetition of whether you have to do it enough times where you stopped towards you You know, you don't really think about it or worry about it very much. But it is interesting because I do think that there's

this idea when people here see you talking. I think it was interesting that you brought it up in front of millions of people that you must have always been comfortable doing it, and oftentimes comfort comes with repetition, even if it's not natural, right, And I do think that's that's very true. So let's go back. You said you were good. You're traveling around going to a bunch of

different elementary schools. When did you realize you said you had, you know, some kind of athletic ability and that would help in recess and and such things to help interact with the kids. When did you start thinking, Hey, maybe one day I could go play a college in college football or college baseball. Maybe at the time, when did you start thinking it might be possible. Uh, there's a

specific game. UM my school that I went to, Centerville High School in the in the Dayton area that and it's it's actually it's it's not known for year in and year out developing Division one players, but they've had, um ironically some guys that have played not only in college, but have made it and gone on to the NFL. And so when I was playing, it's one of the

schools you typically don't play till a year senior. You know, some cases you'll play as a junior just because there's so many guys out and it's had such such a good tradition. So going into my junior year, we were playing at the time a team that was ranked in how USA today comes out with their ranks, and they were ranked number one in the country, school called Cincinnati Princeton that just had a lot of a lot of great athletes and an incredible program, and we're playing on

the road at their school. And if Las Vegas said as wine, in that game, we were probably an underdog by three or four touchdowns. I mean, they were supposed to They had about ten Division one kids and they were really loaded, and we're supposed to get worked. And it was my first start of my career, my first and as a junior, and we somehow ended up getting into the fourth quarter with them, about three minutes to go,

they were up by a touchdown. We score to make a twenty one to twenty and our coach came out and asked us, you know, collectively in the huddle, you guys want to go for one or go for two, and we all yelling at him, you know, we want to go for two. And we went for two, and we ended up making it, and I ended up scoring that that extra point or that the two pointer. And back then it was it was a very different world and how you could relate or relate communicate with recruits.

At that point, had never received a letter in my life. And the monday after that game we beat that school, was a head coach at the highest state had sent a telegram uh to me saying that he had heard about my game, and I was excited about it, and you know, he highest state as a school and he really consider and here I grew up a passionate college football fan. And as he said, my dad coached in Ohio State with Woody and with both Shimba Quitter and then actually went with both to Miami and Ohio to

help start create the cradle of coaches. So college football was just in my d n A. And so from my first letter to ever come to me was from Ohio State and from the head coach himself. Uh, it definitely was like an eye opener for me that I didn't I was just trying to win a starting job, and next thing I know, after one start, there's a

head coach Ohio State reaching out to me. So I think right after that game, I realized, wow, you know, because I had to be I was six three and about a hundred and probably eighty five pounds as a junior, so I had a guess the size, and it was just a matter of really just fine tuning my skill set and just trying to, uh to get better and better. But that was probably looking back at it now, that was probably the moment realized, Wow, this might actually happen

for me. What were your stats like in that game that you guys won. Do you remember a running quarterback? Yeah? In fact, we are like a lot of teams in

that era. We ran the vier And then going into that year, my head coach, who is kind of an old school kind of like a drill instructor from the Marines, just an old and tough guy, he traveled out to Colorado Springs, which is an entire staff and they wanted to learn about the option and the triple option out of the wishbone, and so they spent a week out

there with the Air Force Academy and figured out all inside. Now, we truly ranched option from the wishbone formation, so we had just switched to uh that ball offense in so, yeah, we were much more of a of a run oriented I probably that year. I would guess as a year went on, we ended up throwing more. But I would guess I ave reached probably fifteen twenty passes a game. I would I would I just guessing off the top of my head. And in that particular game, I think

we definitely ran the ball more than we threw. I probably ended up throwing for I don't guess hundred fifty hundred seventy yards in that game, but I think I probably ran through maybe eighty or ninety in that game. I would guess that, Uh, I was I was kind of your typical today's game. I would have fit in perfectly because I was your typical kind of dual guy. But I got it. I think I got on the map more as a runner, uh than I than I did as a passer, especially early my my high school career.

What did it feel like to score that two point conversion you're starting your first I mean, is that still one of the greatest FeAs in our life? Oh? Yeah, Like I can remember like it was yesterday, and I try to talk to my boys about that all the time. You have moments and opportunities that that will live with you for the rest of your lives, and you don't realize that at the time. But especially that moment. We were, as I said earlier, we were such a big underdogs

for our school where we went. I mean, when we went to play somewhere, you know, we would bring you know, four or five six or five four or five six thousand fans on the road, like this is old school and high school football is passionate. I mean, they're our home games will be ten or twelve thousand people. You know, you go on the road and your fans are traveling about where you go, and big student body goes on the road. I mean, it just meant a lot to

our community. And so to win a game like that and just to have euphoria in our homestead all the way stands because we're on the road. It's it's it's just it's the first time you realize, holy cow, look

look at the hysteria. Look look what's going on here, and look how happy everybody is, and you realize that it's the first time in your life the magnitude of what you're doing is not just middle school football or you know, peewee football like it's very and it states like Ohio and Texas and in Florida and Georgia, I mean high school football for for these people, it's it's

a way of life. And I just happened to be at a school and and that that particular night playing against the school where it was sold out stadium, standing room only, and to make your first start, Yeah, you don't, you don't forget something like that. Was your dad there? Yeah, oh yeah, my family would come to all my games and um, just yeah, he was I can't imagine, you

know what what he was experiencing them. I thought it was really cool about trying to and I now experienced it myself having my own cares, so he kind of felt like he had his run and now it's kind of my turn. And he would always try his best to kind of stay back, and he was not. He was the opposite of one of those that it's like, you know, out front trying to show everybody who he is, and he was the opposite. He would stay in the corner and just try to be quiet and be by himself.

And even after the game when I come out of the locker room, he you know, he he'd be out there with with my mom and the rest of my family. But it wasn't like it was him and then everybody else. He was just kind of one of the group, which I always really appreciated. I'm curious on this and we're gonna get I want to go back to your recruitment and go into Ohio State and stuff too. But you mentioned your dad and you've got I think four boys, if I'm not mistaken, and they've all been involved in

athletics a variety of different ages and different sports. Um, I I had as I'm curious what kind of parent you are watching their athletic events. I want to tell you a story. Uh this past season, like my eight year old is playing basketball and I'm not coaching. I coaches a little league team. I'm one of the assistant coaches. Uh. So I get used to kind of talking to the team and everything else, and so I'm talking to him during the game, right like, hey, you got a man up,

you know, because it's eight year old basketball. Like they don't get back on defense, like they'll drive you crazy, right. Uh. And I'm not coaching the whole team. I'm just trying to, you know, get get my kid because he plays better when he When I'm like, hey, you know, get back on defense or whatever. My wife turns. My wife turns to me, and she says, you can't do this. I said,

what do you mean I can't do that? She says, you're, you know, a somewhat public figure because you're in the world of sports, and people in this gym are going to know who you are, and they're gonna be like, oh, there's Clay Travis coaching his his kids, And I don't really think about that at all when I'm watching my kids play. And I'm sure you're the same way, Like I'm just a dad, right, I'm just a dad, just

like or just like everybody else who's in there. But in my mind, then she's talking to me, and now I'm trying to consciously thinking, oh, you know, like people might also be paying attention to how I'm watching my kids. You have to have thought about that and dealt with it way more than I have. How do you go and watch your kids play sports and just be a dad?

Great question, um. I started off probably around the ages of your boys when my my my identical twins who my oldest nineteen now, they just left home about a month ago to go to Clemson, and when they played baseball because I am I'm a big baseball guy baseball, and I tried to coach uh them when they were at seven, eight nine range, and I quickly found that I have serious issues, like I have a know, I

know exactly what I'll tell you another story. I have a I have a competitive problem, like I can't I can't just be like to not just my kids, but kids in general. No, that was good. Good. Try can't do it. I can't do it. So I I quickly after a couple of embarrassing moments, you know, and when I just my competitive spirit just got the best of me, I quickly said, Okay, having a good relationship with my

boys is way more important. And like winning the league at eight U baseball, so I I decided to kind of go into the stands and just clap and just not talk um at all. That that was there was a turning point there, and it was just a summer baseball team. So yeah, I've never had to worry about who's watching me now in the stands, I get excited and elbow my wife or if there's someone sitting next to me. I use my hands a lot, so I'll push somebody or or elbow somebody, you know, in a

in a fun way, not like um. But yeah, that that's all I do now. I And and uh, watching parents today, it't it crazy? Especially sports? I mean you must have you must have some great stories of of folks that you've seen. Oh look, I mean this is this is me. I was coaching third base recently. All right, and uh, we're gonna throw to third, and it's runners on first and second, one out. We're playing a team, a good team in the league, right, the team that

was going to go on and win. So this groundball kind of gets misplayed a little bit, gets picked up, thrown to third. Our guy beats it easy right, like it's should be basis loaded, one out, umpire. Umpire calls him out. I got a perfect view on it, like it's an awful call. And I'm like, oh, you know,

like so how much how much do you argue? Because the year before we lost a game because a runner was called out for running outside the base paths because he was trying to avoid running over a shortstop fielding a ball, right, and the the head coach, yeah, that's exactly right. Yeah. So last year we were like we should have said something because it was the wrong call and it cost our kids game. But we didn't want to be the dads who were like, you know, overreacting.

But we're like, hey, if the rule gets blown, like you should, you know, like it's it's so I said to the umpire, said, hey you missed that one, and he and and so as I'm jogging off the field. I I stopped to him and I say, hey, like you just I mean that wasn't really very close. I mean he was all the way on the bag, like about to stand up, and you called him out and

the umpire said I don't care. And I was like, all the things you could say to me, I don't care is the worst thing you could say, like your only job, Like, hey, I'm sorry. I saw Yeah, that's exactly what I said. And then I kept going and eventually like somebody had to come out into like I kept but I was like when he said I don't care, that was like it set me off. I was like, of all the things you could say to somebody when you miss a call, hey, I saw it differently, Hey,

I'm my bad. You know, we'll try to make it up to you later, like you know you could like there's some sort of it was a private conversation, but I don't care. I don't care. I was like, well, you're getting paid. This is not for free, right, Like you're being paid the best you The least you could do is at least try to get the call right. And if you miss one and you get called on it, then at least have the gumption to say, you know what, I missed that one. That's my bad. Oh oh, well,

that's that's funny. Like so I jogged over. Another parent came over and he was like, you just gotta leave him alone. I know. He blew it, like you just gotta stop talking. And it was like, yeah, it was like you know, probably a seventeen or eighteen year old kid. He's like, you're just lucky he wasn't looking at his phone when the play happened. Uh was what the was what the other parents said. And by the way, this is wins and losses. I'm Clay Travis. We're talking with

Kirk curb Street. Um, so that that's the balancing act, right, is UH trying to figure out? And you just mentioned it. While you mentioned it, You've got sons at Clemson, you went to Ohio State. You talk about every college football program under the sun. You have relationships probably bly with coaches and training staff and everybody else on every program, major program, certainly in the country. How in the world do you avoid, uh, making people think that you are

incredibly biased one way or there. This is something we talked about before privately, but it's the number one thing in a social media ages, you're doing game day, you're calling a game, you give an opinion, and people immediately decide, Oh, it's because you're in favor of X team and you're against YE team. You're pro the SEC, you're pro the Big Ten. You love Ohio State, but you moved out of Columbus and trying to make up for it, you hate him, Like how do you balance all that out?

And and do you even read the mentions after a game or after like do you even try to? I'm just there's so much noise. I'm curious what you do. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's all sir um. First, I think in you and I've spoken in the past, We've known each other for a long time now, but you kind of know how I am. I mean, I take so much pride in my preparation and so much pride and in the game itself.

Like I've watched games go through five highlights of the Tennessee Florida game, Like I watch, you know, from the opening kickoff to the last play of the game, and I do that. I have done that every Saturday for the last twenty five years. So I don't I don't whether you like what I say, or you don't like what I say. That that that I have no problem with. But the people that think I am an agenda, like

what how can I possibly have an agenda? When you know, if you think about it, I watch as much as I can, and I talked to as many people as I can, the coaches and the players who are involved, and then I give you an opinion. In some weeks, it might be for your team, and that's when you get man, you're amazing, You're so good at what you and then the next week it's against your team, and now it's you're such a homer, or you're you're a hater, you're a trader. It's like when aren't people going to

figure year out? Like I don't have time to keep score of like who I'm supposed to be for who I'm against? I just say what I think, you know, Like the last two years, Ohio State always seems to

be in the crosshairs of the playoff. In the last two years, I have adam rely said after the conference championship games, because it's a big zoo from the time the SEC uh SEC championship game, the Big Ten championship game, and then that game ends and then the debate in the frenzy literally begins that night on Sports Center for US until the next day when we announced who the four teams are. And if anybody's really watched me, they've

seen in one in one year. In fourteen, Ohio State was sitting at six and t FU and Baylor were ahead of them, and they went out with a third string quarterback, Cardil Jones and Wisconsin fifty nine and nothing or whatever it was. And I went on TV after that and I said, is based on the way they've been playing all year, the fact that they proved with a third string quarterback. If anything, they're not taking any

steps back. I think they put an exclamation on their end of their season, and I think Ohio States a better team that they should be in the top four. Of course, I was in Ohio State at home or a bah. They went on to win the national championship, beat Alabama, beat Oregon. Well, the last two years, I've been very very adamant about Ohio State not deserving to be. In fact, two years ago I walked off the set because I said, if they put Alabama and Georgia in,

I'll be It's the right thing to do. But there's no way they're gonna be too worried about being politically correct. There's no way this committee is going to do the right thing. They're gonna worry about Jim Delaney and all the other politics. They're gonna put the Ohio state in even though Alabama should be in there, and sure enough, boom, Alabama shows up. I walk off the set as in, I was so proud of the committee. I was so like, I can't believe we live in an era where the

committee doesn't worry about politics. Like the A people would have definitely slated well they lost, they won move Ohio State up. Like here were people using their collective minds and reasoning to put the four best teams in and sure enough, Alabama deserve that opportunity, and they got put in. I walk off the set. People thought I was walking off the set boycotting that Alabama. I'm like, do you not listen? Like, well, how do you miss that? Like

I was? I was dumbfounding excited. So anyway, this is just a couple examples of every week for me. So what I've learned a long time ago is just gather as much information as I can from very reliable people who are involved in the games and playing and coaching, watch as much football as anybody in the country, and then just give my opinion and and and not really worry about it. Lets let's let's let things just fall where they where they may, and and just go about

my business and probably just like you. I mean, when you're in our world, that's that's really all you can do. But I don't really get caught out. I could say one sentence and I'm a big tan Ohio State homer, and the same sentence, I'm an Ohio State hater and ann sec hole. So you can't win with those people.

So I try not to worry a lot about offending kind of that lunatic fringe or what what they might be upset about, because if they're not upset with me, they're upset with you, or they're upset with someone else, you know what I mean, Or that always upset. I mean, that's the passion is what makes college football, I think, the best sport that exists in our country right like in terms of sure enjoyment and everything else. But that also the passion can flip and turn into what makes

it the scariest and the wildest. Uh. And we'll get to like versions of that maybe in a little bit. But I want to circle back now. So you're you get that first amazing letter from Ohio State. Um, and you said your dad obviously was a coach. Do you remember being around what he hayes and like getting to meet some of those guys back in the down Oh yeah, I remember sitting on what he has his lap as a as a kid and looking up to him at that age it's like probably, uh, you're either middle or

youngest son looking up there. You know. For me, it was like in the mid seventies and Archie Griffin was on the team, and I put Archie Griffin's helmet on in the locker room, went home one of the years he won the Heisman and sat on what he hayes his lap after the game with his white shirt with his cut off sleeves and his glasses and his hat on, and I'm literally looking up at zeus, you know, like me at that age, like I'm like like like are

you kidding me? Like this isn't real, you know, And to have a chance to come around, you know, my dad would take me from time to time. He didn't abuse that, but he would take me from time to time and ended up actually going to Woody's funeral when I was in tenth grade. And you know, I was

around bow quite a bit. Boschen Beckler, who my dad and he coached together and became really good friends and and stayed in touch, and then he recruited me pretty heavily, and and UM just just stuff that UM for me was, you know, looking back at it, UM just obviously helped develop the person that I became. Because if you would have asked me as a senior in high school when sports were you know, I was really starting to kind of grow and who knew what I was. I was

trying to shoot for the stars. You would have said, what's your perfect scenario in your life? What would you want to do? At that time? I would have said, play football Ohio State and play short stuff for the Cincinnati Reds. Like I grew up with a big red machine and Red's Baseball and listening to Marty Brennaman and and so I was not I'm going to the NFL guy at all. I was I'm going to MLB was my thing. But I want a desperately I wanted to play college football um and and after that again in

seventeen or eighteen. My my dream would have been to go on to play baseball. So Ohio State recruits you and ultimately you end up going there. Did you was there any possibility of you going elsewhere? Or in your mind did you ever even conceive that you might go elsewhere even if you're talking to other schools. Was it always if Ohio State offers me a scholarship, I'm going there in your mind? Or did you even did you consider? I mean, you talked about meeting Woody and like obviously

the iconic nature of your connection to Ohio State. What kind of recruiting situation did you find yourself in? Well, I was I was heavily recruited and being recruited by almost every school in the country, and I, in the back of my mind knew that I was always going to go to Ohio State, but I wanted to be involved with the recruiting. Ironically, Earl Bruce my senior year,

was fired in November of my senior year. He got fired, and uh, I had to kind of tread water until they named a coach because it took him about three or four weeks until they finally announced that John Cooper was going to be their head coach, and I was, you know USC and Penn State and did you take did you take other official visits? Yeah, yeah, I looked at Michigan and Penn State. I wanted to go out to USC, but by the time I decided, I had

already kind of led them on long enough. I knew I wasn't going to go out there, um, and so I had to just be honest with him and tell them that I was had already made it might have made up my mind. And then the second that they named Johnny Coople, I didn't know John Coople from a hole in the wall. I didn't know who he was.

But we had been talking. My dad had been talking to some of the folks at Ohio State that were still there after Roll Bruce had gotten fired, and he basically told him, when you announced the coach, you know, I think Clerk wants to announce, literally as soon as his press conference is over, that he's he's going to go to Ohio State. And so once they announced it, um, I went ahead and said I was gonna go to High State. But yeah, I I enjoyed being recruited, but

I didn't enjoy lying. After a while, I just kind of got old, and you start to become friends, like friends with the guy that's recruiting you, Like Kevin Steele was relentless um. In fact, when I was if you go back and look at Tennessee football, if you go back to the mid eighties, um, there were some great players that were coming out of Southwest Ohio and even Chuck Webb who was up in the Toledo area down and I would give Kevin Steele all the credit, um

for his style of recruiting. Relentless friendly. I mean, you felt like he was your best friend, you know. And so I didn't know a whole lot about Tennessee football back when I was growing up, And yet I really wanted to go to Tennessee because I wanted to hang out with Kevin Steel, like he made such a favorable

impression on me. And to this day, he and our friend now and you know, I followed his career and he's obviously doing a great job at Auburn, But um, he did such a great job recruiting me that that I I very easily could have gone. And if I've been funny, if I had the campus should have been hard to say no after you get on campus and look at their history and tradition, But he was. He

was recruiting me. I just remember that, um, just because of all the other kids that he was able to sway out of Ohio and go down to play for Tennessee. Can you imagine what it would be like? So you're a pretty high level recruit in the nineteen eighties, I believe it was. Can you can you imagine what it would be like to be a high level recruit now?

Because you I'd imagine then, like you had coaches who come to your school and certainly they could call your home, but it's not like you have a cell phone like

I was. We were driving around, I played golf course with Kirby Smart and we were in the card together for six hours, and uh, he was just talking about the sheer amount because I mean the amount of time and contact and it's all text right, Like the amount of time that they spend having to interact with these kids, Like I just can't imagine year after year you're texting with fifteen, sixteen, seventeen year olds. I can't imagine the coach.

But I also can't imagine being a fifteen, sixteen or seventeen year old with you know, multimillion dollar head coaches texting you all the time. Can you even imagine what that would be like? Now? I can't because back then it was just you would you would give him your home address, yep, when you've filled out your questionnaire, and you would get inundated with so much. Now it got to the point where you didn't even open up open

up the mail. Would it would just it would just be piled in your corner of your bedroom and probably just hundreds and hundreds of pieces and you just not that you're bragging that no, yeah, I open them. It just it was the same kind of rhetoric. It was the same kind of speel. Yeah, as a fifteen, sixteen, seventeen eight year old kid, you just kind of get tired of and I would think getting text you know, players they probably ghost coaches all the time just kind

of look at it like, oh, yeah, what's up? You know, then they just kind of move. Unless it's a coach or a school that you maybe have interest in, then maybe it's a different deal. But yeah, it's one thing to get it from Kirby, it's another thing to get it from you know, the hundreds of other teams and coaches that you're not necessarily interested in that they're just wearing wearing your phone out that would get that would

get tiring for sure. And and not to mention, they try to work other angles, whether it's a sister or a mom or whoever it is. So um, yeah, that's that's that's a different game and something obviously our generation didn't have to worry about. So you arrive at Ohio State, you're a bally hoo'd recruit. John Cooper's the new head coach. How much of a culture shock. It's still in the state of Ohio. But and even though you went to a high school where people cared a great deal, Ohio

State ball big time college football. Even if you go to a big time high school is a huge step. What did it feel like for you as a true freshman at Ohio State. Well, first, my dad when he dropped me off, he said, you're gonna go in and everybody's gonna be, you know, highly recruited kid, And it's like, I want you to remember this, Uh, kids in your class four or five years later, we're gonna look at this class and if half of them playing, you'll have

a very good class. And I was like, what they're all gonna play? You're not let me. These guys are all everybody's all state. Oh this all that? You know?

You go to a school like Tennessee, Ohio State. You look at every recruiting class, you read every kid's resume, and you're just blown away, like you can't imagine winning a true freshman Like right now, we just you and I were together and we went through Alabama's recruiting class, George's or Tennessee's or Ohio State, anybody right now that the kids who are rising freshman, we would look at their resumes and if we put a star next to who, we say it's gonna make it. I bet you added

twenty five of them. We probably twenty of them, at least maybe twenty two of them. If we're trying to predict that they're gonna be, they're gonna make it, not even become a superstar, just be a major contributor, a starter. You would you would be able to find twenty out of twenty five easy and sure enough you go back and look at recruiting classes. When my dad said that,

I know he's crazy he's right. I mean, you know, whether a guy gets an injury, guy gets homesick, guy gets the girl pregnant, back home, guy gets this, guy gets back. You start to look at everybody's recruiting class, and sure enough you get those that hit you know, you're you're having a pretty good class. So he left me with that, and I remember walking in and thinking I had a really you know, you're talking about highs

and lows of your lives. I had a really hard time just getting over that I belonged in there, like you know that the here's a locker room and a place that I had always revered and always looked at when I went in there as if this was a different place, Like this is like going to almost a different planet when I was a kid, And now to go in there and you're like, now, it's almost like you know, the green lantern, you know, It's like now, all of a sudden, I get I get the outfit.

I'm one of the guys, and I'm I'm wearing this? Are you kidding me? I'm not supposed to have this on. I don't don't need this, I can't wear this. So I you know, for years I had a really hard time adjusting, not just to the game and to the speed of the game, but just to feeling comfortable and feeling as if I was warranted and being in that word it was. It was something I had had a hard time overcoming initially. Do you think if you had been in a different era that would have been a

transferse situation? You stuck it out, and I bet when we get you were really happy. But particularly with quarterbacks, it's like you get there that first year and it doesn't click, like they're already looking to go elsewhere. Uh would that have been you? You think if you had grown up in this different era of of college football? Well, I'm glad you brought that up. And I got to the point as a red shirt sophomore. They went to

Notre Dame. They brought a kid named Ken Graham and who was a backup on a Notre Dame national championship team. Tony Rice was the starter, and he had transferred in. He had a big arm, big huge guy, a big arm, and I have been working like crazy to kind of be in a position that I was in, and here comes a guy who's transfers in and eventually they were looking at him to become a starter. And so I was starting to kind of realize, you know that this

is tough, and and I'm chasing this. I've been chasing this for three years, and going into my fourth years has sort of been going into my red shirt. I guess my red shirt getting the beginning of my red shirt junior year, and I was just kind of getting discouraged. And I remember talking to my dad because I put baseball in the back burner and I was as good as the baseball, if not better, and I always wished I had played that. And I told my dad, you know, Dad,

I think I just can't take this anymore. I'm not sing eyed I with the coaches, with the offense of staff and philosophy, and and I really wish I had played baseball. So basically looking for an easy way out. And I was like, I said, I'm just gonna go play baseball. And my dad was like, no, no, You're you're not doing that. You're gonna you're gonna you're gonna

go through spring ball. You're gonna compete, and you're gonna see where things are and we'll kind of see, you know, where you are after that, and when you want to talk to the coaches about something you know that you might want to do. After that, then then you can do that. But you're you're not You're not giving up. And so I was from a generation when when your dad told you that, you listened, and even though I didn't agree with it, I equally strapped up my helmet

and went out and did what I could. And so what I found was I outperformed this individual as far as the way they keep stats and seven on seven when they would keep stats and say okay, Kirky or whatever percentage and can't you or whatever percentage? And the same in team. And so going into my junior year, it was kind of a split thing, but they aired on the side, if I think more his potential because it is his big arm and it fit the offense

that they were running. And so we would kind of split some some reps and then he would take the upper hand and then we'd split some reps and eventually he about the middle of the year on he would take he would start to take the most of the reps. And so while I was discouraged and frustrated, I was going into my my last year and after all I've been through and I, you know, we don't have enough time to kind of talk about everything I've been through.

I finally sole kind of the light at the end of the tunnel, kink I am graduated and it was basically my job. And that spring going into my senior year, the head coach, John Cooper did something differently and you voted for captains in the spring going into uh into the summer. They've never done that before, and me and

a guy named Steve Tovar were voted captains. There were just two captains, and I was voted unanimously, and the fact that I was voted by my teammates, it was like a huge boost for me, and it allowed propelled me into the summer and into my senior year with a lot of confidence despite what I've been through. And looking back at it, I guess I get very passionate and emotional when I see kids who, to their credit or only years old, when they hit some adversity and

they decided to get into the transfer portal. And I look at it now at hindsight, and I think that not only did that, that attitude of sticking it out helped me to eventually graduate from the home state to be part of the Ohio State football family and to be appreciated. It was really a turning point and kind of a fork in the road in my life as an individual. And I wouldn't be sitting here talking to you right now. I wouldn't be doing what eventually I

got into. If I would have said, Man, this is terrible, I'm out of here. I'm gonna go play baseball, or I'm out of here. I'm gonna like today's kid, I'm gonna go transfer, doing another school. I'm gonna have a transfer portal. I wouldn't be doing what I'm doing today. And so when I hear kids face, you know, and

every individual cases, you know, it's different. I'm not saying all kids who transfer are making a mistake, but I think the kids that see competition and they get the short end of the stick maybe and they think this isn't fair. Um, I feel like taking the easy way out isn't necessarily always the right answer, And especially if

you're a traditional powerhouse program with big, strong alumni. There's something about Jalen Hurts that if you talk to Alabama alumni, the fact that he stuck it out and the fact that he got an opportunity in the SEC Championship game to perform and do well, and he graduates from Alabama and he moves on. Now he's at Oklahoma. But if you if Jalen Hurts goes on to try to play in the NFL, let's say it works out for a

year or two. Let's say it doesn't work out at all, and now he's looking to try to figure out what he wants to do with his life. Jalen Hurts is going to have an army of people they're gonna want to try to help him succeed in life. And a lot of those people are gonna be Alabama alumni because they're going to see what he went through and how he kept fighting and how he put the team ahead of himself. And there's something about that quality that people

are drawn to that. And so I think when I see kids just immediately enter enter the transfer portal, I think they're looking at a five year window of their life and they're not looking at a forty five year window of their life, and how that decision can impact

them in so many ways beyond just playing football. And hopefully there's coaches or family members in their lives to help them see that, but I'm afraid of many cases, um, that's not the case, and they just try to find that theory of the grass as greener on the other the other side of the fence, and I think that's where they're They're trying to find that quick fix, and to me that isn't always the right answer based on

my experience anyway. Be sure to catch live editions about Kicked the coverage with Clay Travis week days at six am Eastern, three am Pacific. We're talking to kirkharb Street. I'm Clay Travis. This is the Winds and Losses Pot podcast. How did your senior year at Ohio State go? It went well? I I think I had an injury in the second week against Bowling Green. Listening to this, we play Bowling Green, who was actually wanted. You know, there's always one team in the MAC you just don't want

to play well Bowling Bowling Green was that team. They were outstanding that year and we ended up losing my number one receiver by a guy by the name of Joey Galloway on a kickoff return towards a c l out for the year, another guy by the name of Robert Smith cracked three ribs in that game, and we

lost him for for a few weeks. Um. So, a guy named Eddie George started to get more and more carries my backfield that year with Eddie, Eddie George, Robert Smith, I had Choe Galloway at wide receiver, a kid named Brian stade Line who played. By the way. What's remarkable is four of those guys that you just mentioned, including you, all have ended up making livings in some way talking about college football in the NFL. Right, that's right, that's right.

Do you think about the statistics on that. That's a pretty remarkable number of people to all be on the same offensive side of the ball. Yeah, that's a great point. And all great guys. I mean, Joey and I were best friends in college and continue to be really good friends. Eddie a really good friend and so happy for what he's accomplished obviously here in Nashville, and such a solid dude. Um. So, yeah, I mean we ended up. We ended up. The best way to describe this is we week three, we play

at Syracuse on the road. Was this is when they had Marvin Graves and they were like fifth or six in the country and we were supposed to get killed and we ended up beating him and Eddie had like three touchdowns in that game. And the very next week we're playing a terrible Wisconsin team and we come back down again. That's why I'm so big on emotions in college football, for you up, are you down? Where are you? And we were down against Wisconsin thirty local kick lost

to a team we should have won. That kind of sentence into a little bit of a kind of a turned down, kind of a two weeks spin out where we just didn't play our best football but ended up

doing well. We came down to the Michigan game, to the Rose Bowl and we ended up tying them, and that was when ties, Yeah, just brutal, and they went they had been a roll records, so they went ahead over us UM and that was back then there was no bcs like you really went to the Rose Bowl or it was like you know one year we went Rose Bowl or Liberty Bowl. It was like Rose Bowl or Citrus Bowl. So that's why John Cooper who got so much heat, is he could not win that game.

And in many cases, um, you know, the Rose Bowl was on the line. And if you want a couple of them. I think people would have been pretty happy with his era, But losing to Michigan, it's like it's like Tennessee losing Alabama every year. I mean, it's just eventually it's going to catch up to and that's that's what out doing. So you finish your career at Ohio State and you do you have any hope at all? You talked about baseball and how you thought you were

pretty good. Do you think at that point, hey, I have some kind of career beyond Ohio State athletically. What decisions are you making as your college football career comes to a close. And he's a great questions that things

I haven't thought about in years. UM. I was a business major at Ohio State and marketing major, and one of the things that Ohio State did back then is they had a guy that was assigned to help players that if they wanted to kind of get into um, you know, their field, he would try to connect you with people who were um either either either different alumnie will try to help you kind of get started with your career, or just different companies that would reach out

to the athletic department say hey, if you have somebody that's uh, you know, in the pharmaceutical sales. We're looking to maybe high are a couple of guys that kind of thing. So I was interviewing. Graduated in the spring, but I was interviewing throughout early spring, trying to either get into medical sales and pharmaceutical sales. So I was going and I was putting on a suit and tie as a marketing major. I was going to interviews based on this guy's leadership and and just the way he

was mentoring me. And I was getting a lot of opportunities. There was a company called Worthington Industries that's that's up in Columbus, and um I was getting second and third interviews. So I was balancing that and also thinking, hey, maybe I'll maybe I'll try to do the NFL thing. And what I found was with the NFL, it was hey, we want to bring you in as a free agent and I and I for me, I just again, different era,

different time. A lot of guys back in my ear if they didn't get drafted, they would need to go free agency. They would go World League, or they would go Arena League. And I did not want to be a guy that could not cut the cord and just bounce around. You know, what are you doing? Well, I'm playing an arena football, you know, and arena to Like some of these guys, they just cannot let go of

their athletic career. I did not want. I had such a phobia against that that I felt like, if I was going to be drafted, I feel chase it the best I could. And if I didn't get drafted, I'm done. I'm moving on. I'm going to find a job and kind of get started with my life. And so when I did not get drafted my senior year, as I said, I had some free agent opportunities could have done the arena.

Did you did you have a party for the draft or anything, or were you anticipating that like that would have been a surprise if you yeah, yeah, yeah, No, no party, even if I would have been a first round or I don't know, if I wouldn't have a big party. I I think that's like, I don't know, sometimes I feel so bad for those guys they throw the big party and then they don't get drafted on the first night, you know, and then it can go over into the next night. I don't think I would

recommend having the big party. I don't know, it's just me, but I know we didn't have any party. It was just again a different time. Guys, a lot of guys didn't really have parties. Joey Galloway was playing basketball when he got drafted seventh or eightes overall. Um, it was just a just kind of a different time. But no, no, no, no draft party for me, nothing like that. Didn't get drafted. Like I said, a few teams call after and see if I had the interest in coming to the free agent.

No interest at all. I had just my mind made up. I was moving on, and I had been through a lot in those five years and I was ready to just kind of put that behind me move on. And like I said, I thought I was going to get into the business world. And it took a while I was doing that. I reached out to two local of radio stations that that did talk shows, and I grew

up a big sports talk radio fan. Like if you got into my car as a teenager, um, you know a lot of times people were listening to music and going to party and if you got into my car, I was heading to the parties. It's just I was listening to Reds Baseball with Marty and Joe, or I was listening to seven WW listening to Andy Ferman and Chris Collinsworth talking sports like that's that's what I did.

There was no satellite radio, there's nothing like that. I listened to the local radio that happened to be WW and Cincinnati, which was a big station, and that's what I did. That was like my hobby. I really enjoyed listening to talk radio and thought that that would be a really cool job if I got older and had

that opportunity. So with that in mind, as I'm doing these interviews for these these pharmaceutical sales and medical sales, um, I just threw a couple of floaters out to these local AM stations to see if there might be any

opportunities for them to have. You know, last year study that talked about the upcoming football team, and nothing really happened for a few months, and then late spring early summer, one of them responded and said, it's ironic you're reaching out or changing our format basically from elevator music to

an all sports format. You know that that was just at the beginning of the time when all sports radio is starting to kind of become a thing, and they were going to start an afternoon drive talk show with the guy that they called the Voice of the buck Eyes, the guy who did the play by play, and he needed a partner, and they were gonna pay me if I would do it. They were gonna pay me twelve thousand dollars with no benefits and you know, not nothing,

just twelve thousand dollars. This would have been what year, like roughly, um, this would have been nineteen spring of nineties nineties. So for people they're listening, it wasn't. Twelve thousand dollars was not what I was getting at it is. Twelve thou dollars was not a lot of money in either. No no, no, no, no, no no. But here's the thing. So I got to the last interview was one of these pharmaceutical sales John's. I thought I was gonna take it. Took a year, a sample of the whole nine yards

past it. I mean, they're ready to hire me, and they say, is this this radio saying if you're gonna take it, you can't you can't become a sales rep for us. And you're traveling around, you know, different cities, and you're gonna be on the road a lot. We can't we can't guarantee you'll be home to be a show in afternoon drive radio show. There's no way you can do both. So you you got to kind of

make up your mind. With a pharmaceutical sales job. This is like oay, you know, it's like much more stability. And so everybody that I talked to at that time to get advice, they look to me like, are you out of your mind? Like that or that? Basically everybody telling me to take the pharmaceutical job, like, you know, you what an opportunity, how lucky for you to play at Ohio State open up these kind of doors for you.

You're nuts not to take advantage of that. And in the back of my mind, I just kept looking at that radio show, having no idea what it potentially could lead to. I didn't even think about that. I was just thinking, how cool would it be to talk in the radio for a job, because I've been listening to these guys and we went against a lot of people and what they were recommending. And after all those interviewers, I turned down all those those business opportunities and I

took this this local radio, making twelve thousan dollars. Now, I was coming off living off of a scholarship check, so twelve thousand dollars was actually a raise from what I was living off of it. You know, there was no cost of living, no pel grant. Like, I didn't have a lot of money as a student. So now you know, I made and I had roommates, so we shared rent, we shared own alternationing, electric power and all

that stuff. So I I was like, you know, I was making a little bit of money, but I was loving what I was doing. And that started. He actually started that the summer of nineties three was my first actual welcome to the show was so think about how how many years ago was that? Now that was a long time ago. I ended up doing radio for fifteen years. So so yeah, twelve thousand dollars. What time of day were you on? I was on from five thirty to seven.

It was the initial job that you had. And the first time you sit down in front of a radio mike and start talking at five thirty, that's the first time you would have done an hour and a half of radio or what kind of experience did you have in radio? Zero zero experience. I was working with, like I said, with the play by play man, who, by the way, now is the play by play man or the Los Angeles Angels. He does the Games Angels and

has for all that fifteen years. Um. But yeah, I just sat there and he and I just kind of like you and are doing right now. I just kinda hung out and talked, and eventually people started to realize it was and elevator music on that station. People were talking sports, and we didn't do a lot of they were were not a whole lot of marketing going on back then, so it was just word of mouth. Eventually people figured it out and we start to take calls, and you know, it was an hour and a half

and it was a blink of an eye. But he would take it. He would take it out a break, he would go in to break, he would throw out the traffic, he would you know, all those kind of things. All I had to do was hit my button on and you know, kind of be his sidekick. That that was my gig, Like I didn't have to worry about anything. And then the show started to become successful, and then it went from five thirty seven. They went from four to seven you know, after about I don't know, eight months,

not eight or nine months. So now we're on for three hours, and then they bumped me up by a little bit of you know, a little bit more money. Um. But again, man, I was just doing something I loved. And that's when I learned a very valuable lesson, and I tried to speak my my son's about this is fine. Something you're passionate about and try to go out and make a living doing it. And you know, I don't care. What it is saying is if you can find a job that involves your passion, then you get to go.

You get to be probably the only maybe five percent of Americans to go to bed on Sunday night and actually look forward to the next week. They look forward to going to work on Monday. There are a whole lot of people to do that. And if you find something you love, you're not worried about how much money am I making, but you're worried about just doing something you love. Eventually you're gonna get better, and you're gonna get better, You're gonna hopefully get more opportunities, and eventually

that money will come. But if you're chasing money, I guess it's doable, but you're not going to be very happy doing it. And I've learned that just by accident really more than anything, just by another fork in the road there whether I would have gone pharmaceutical sales or talk radio, and I decided to do something I thought sound of fun and something I wanted to do, which which was talk radio. Fox Sports Radio has the best

sports talk lineup in the nation. Catch all of our shows at Fox Sports Radio dot com and within the I Heart Radio app search f s R to listen live. So when we're talking to Kirk herb Street, I'm Clay Travis. This is the Winds and Losses podcast. At what point does radio lead to an opportunity in television? Well? This, this is this is the craziest story of all. So Jay Crawford, who used to be at ESPN and he's a kind of a local keyp guy now in Cleveland.

He and I started a show, one of those George Michael Sports Machine Sunday night shows. Now everybody seems to have them on, even here in Nashville, and there's three of them on on a Sunday night local news. There's like a thirty minute all sports show. So he and their company decides those radio station and this TV station were owned by the same family. They decide to start a thirty minu it Sunday night sports show, and they

want me to co host with him. So now you've never done any television at any point in my life other than being interviewed, right, never anything, And now I'm writing scripts and and watching him teach me how to write scripts for like Lead INDs. You know where you're on Cameron reading telepront reading teleprompter. You know, people at home don't realize reading teleprompter when you've never read teleprompter and not sounding like you're reading. Oh, it's an amazingly

difficult skill to have. It is, especially when you're twenty three and you have zero TV experience. And I'll tell you to this day, one of the greatest things I ever did was taking that show. So, you know, being in Columbus, we would do Reds or Indians or Browns

or Bengals. I mean, Ohio State. There's just a lot going on in that market to be able to talk about, you know, a ton of golf, and so I'm doing Lead in you know, when it's a single shot on you and you're reading maybe three sentences into the highlight or whatever it was. So I did that. I would do my radio show during the week. I was part of the Ohio State Radio broadcast. I was the sideline

reporter from from down on the field. And then I would Sunday night, I would do the the Sunday Night show for thirty minutes and I would be reading teleprompter and doing my best with highlights and talking about a fish out of water for you know, probably for six months just trying to figure out what most people probably do in college. I was doing live on the air and create experience for me and allowed me to really grow. And every time I would be on the even thought

about working at ESPN. I'd be on the sideline and there was a guy by the name of Jack or Root. Were you to be on the side, remember him. He was with a lot of times he was with Keith uh and sometimes with Brent Musburger. But he would see me with his big, huge radio pack on and you know, saying weight about twenty five pounds, and he'd look at me with his his dark rounded sunglasses and he'd be like, what he's like, I see you all the time? He's like, why aren't you doing TV? I was like, I'm doing

this is great, man. I'm by now I'm up. I'm up to like twenty eight or thirties thousand in my mind because I'm doing that TV stuff and I'm loving life. I'm you know, I'm hanging out with my buddies and not really traveling other than one Ohio State footballs on the road. I like, I had a great gig, you know. And and he's like, you gotta put a tape together, you know, And you got you gotta, you need to get on TV. Every time I'd see him, you would

say that. So so the three season and ninety four season, I'm doing this well the ninety By the time the nineties, that's, by the way, Eddie George, when he was like at the highest peak of his he went on to in the highs of he's just starting to really cop up. And so I come up with, I have no tape. What am I gonna send ESPN? I don't have any TV other than Sunday Night Show. So I come up with an idea. And no, I didn't have an agent, Nobody told me to do this. I come up with

an idea that. I go to Ohio Stadium in February stadium twenty degrees out, it's empty. I get a local TV guy, camera guy to come with me, and I do a fake sideline report. I think. I was like thanks, Keith, and I did like a you know, like a I don't know, I make something up, you know, for thirty or forty five seconds. I do two of those. I asked Eddie George, who's a huge name at the time in college football, and Joey Galloway, who was just about

to be drafted, and their buddies of mine. I asked them, Hey, could you guys come over the newsroom and take something with me. I'm not gonna put it on air. I just want to put it on my tape. And they're like, sure, we have no problem. So I call I have them come over. We spent about ten minutes. I I fake like I called the show buck t Corner, your host perfect. I interviewed these guys, ask him about whatever for about ten minutes. So I put that on. I put the

fake sideline reports from the empty Ohio stadium on. I would love to see that tape today, and I sent that to ABC Sports and I've seen it to ESPN, and that's how angually ESPN responded back to me, and uh, that's how eventually I ended up getting hired there. So what did they hire you to do the first? Like, did they ever ask you about that? That would be an amazing video To find it has to be somewhere, right, Yeah, I guess I don't know where it would be. But

I I didn't hear anything. Again, this is this is pre internet, pretty email, pretty everything. I didn't hear. I I sent that, like, but you said that like a VHS tape and like a Manila envelope to somebody's addressed that you had Jack dud. I literally don't even know if anybody saw that. I didn't get a thank you note. I didn't get a hey, we'll be in touch. I didn't get anything. So I just assumes somebody looked at it, throw it in the trash, moved on with their day,

like I had no idea. And like two or three months later, ESPN calls and says, we would love to fly you in for an interview and audition and and we're going to send you some some stuff on the Georgia Alabama game from the previous football season from the season.

So they send me all this literature and information on the game that was already played, and they want me to kind of show up ready to go to be able to we're gonna do some studio work with you, and we're gonna do some play by play color work with you. I've never done play by playing color in my life. So I am up until I'm not exaggerating, I'm up till three or four in the morning putting together aboard because the when I did Ohio State Radio and the play by play guy had this board that

he would do. So ever reason I knew anybody did a board was he did it. So I'm up with all this literature they sent me, and I you know, I'm going over Andre Hastings and Eric Sire and all these different guys, and I'm like looking through their media guy to see any his cousin played, And you know, I mean, it took me forever, and I'm going through every player, every starter, and I made this board. I've never worked as hard to this day on a board

as I did that board. Um to go into that audition, So I fly the next day after doing all this work on this board, we sit down and speak for a little bit, maybe for an hour, and they just trying to get to know me a little bit. And then they say, okay, let's go downstairs. And they brought Jack Edwards, who used to be a sports bank on How do you remember him? He came in. I didn't. I didn't. I didn't really know anything about him or know who he was. I'd seen him on Sports Center.

But we do like a segment. Um, they give me an idea of what we might talk about, they show me, give me a little bit of time to kind of go over it, and so we do like a little segment on TV. And they just watched me talk um, you know, see if I can speak and look at the camera. And we do that for fifteen or twenty minutes, and they say, okay, I remember we asked you to look at the George Alabama game. We want you to give any notes or anything. So I'm like so excited.

It's down into my bag, pulled his board out. I mean, I've got hey. Jack Edwards looks at that and he's like, wow, it's like you put a little time, just like you put a little time into that, Like yeah, of course, yeah, I put it down and right on the sports center uh desk, and they put a game on in the monitor that's inside the desk, and Jack's acting like to play by play guy, and I'm being the color guy. And we probably all that work talking six hours easy

on that you probably did three plays. And then they're like, okay, all right, thanks guys. Oh man, that's it. I said, we're gonna do the whole game, did like three t three plays, and then that was it. Put me in a car some met the airport said thanks. And that was in April March or April of April, May, June, July, early August. I'm on a fishing trip in the Upper Peninsula with my dad and my uncle and my grandpa, and my roommate called and said, some guy named Mo

Davenport from ESPN called you. He needs you to call him as soon as possible. Season starts in like four weeks. I honestly, again, i'd forgotten about it. I thought I just failed. They called me and offered me a thirteen week sideline reporting on a new station called ESPN two.

I was going to be in eideline reporter. They're gonna pay me seven fifty dollars per game and right away I get my calculator out of my Yeah, weeks adding all that up to see kind of where we are, and sure enough it ended up I ended up taking that and kind of the rest is uh, the rest is history. But that all was working with Dwayne Stats and Todd Christiansen most weeks being the sideline reporter and that was crazy. Dude, How I'm nervous? Yeah, how nervous

were you for that trip to ESPN? Because I think there's a lot of people listening right now who want that opportunity, right, they want to get a chance whatever field you're in. And like you talked about all the hours you prepared for like you were way over prepared for what you did, right, and you don't get any feedback, but when you were walking into that room for that interview, and I think there's a lot of people who can experience that and have at some point in their careers,

Like what did that feel like for you? Completely go back to what we talked about earlier about how shy I am as a person. Um I was. I was out of my comfort zone, but at the same time could not believe ESPN um had called me. So I was like, I'm going to see this through. I'm going to overcome I'm going to get comfortable with being uncomfortable, basically, is what I decided to do. And um walked in

there and and ESPN. If you've never been there, it's it's it's like a kind of an even back then, it's like a big campus, you know, like I always envisioned it being in New York City and with a huge buildings and you know that kind of thing. That was my perception of ESPN before I went there. And then I went there and it was it was like in a suburb, you know, and it just happened to be uh year years ago it was just a local New England sports network. It was you know, not not

ever envisioned and growing and what it became. And so the founding fathers they weren't really worried about growth. And so by the time I came along in the mid nineties, they've been around for I don't know, you tell me twenty years, maybe fifteen seventeen years maybe by then, and so you could see that their growth was going out, you know, sideways, not up, and they were buying up McDonald's maybe across the street or they were buying this,

or they're buying that because they were outgrowing um. And so when you walk in there and you're you're going in for an audition or an interview, man, it's it's daunting. It's it's a pretty intimidating experience, at least for me, especially for the lack of experience that I had at that point in my career. And they couldn't they couldn't have been any more gracious, but it's still pretty pretty scary thing to go through. You do the sidelines, uh in I guess the fall of for ESPN two, how

long do you do sidelines? So I I did that the entire year, and when we got to November, I kept reaching back to Moe Davenport, who was kind of the boss back then, and I kept saying, Hey, you know, if there's ever a game where somebody calls in sick, or there's ever a game where you have more games and you have announcers and you need somebody, um, I would love to do some color. It's I can ever do that for you love to have a chance to took all game? And He's like, I hear, yeah, I hear,

you just be paid just be patient. Just be patient kind of thing. Oh. Um, the whole season went through. We get near the end of the season and he calls me and he says, I think I've got an opportunity for you. Um it's Minnesota. This by the way, this isn't like Main versus New Hampshire, Right, I mean again, you can go back to my age and where I was at this point in my career, I was doing sideline reporting and most of the the games. My first game was Hawaii in Texas with Ricky Williams as a true

freshman at Hawaii. Um, we're doing so. I mean, you got paid fifty dollars, but your airfare costs more than that at least, right, I mean to get out to Hawaii, Well, luckily ESPN covered for Yeah. Yeah, That's what I'm saying. But like, I mean, that's that's pretty that's a pretty awesome game to get to go to. Yeah, yeah, yeah exactly. And I'm in Hawaii and so I'm seeing the country.

I'm seeing the world outside of the Big Ten. And I was in the Mountain West, a bunch with like teams like Sunny Lubick in Colorado State and and b y U and then we went into the Big Ten and and so we bounced around. I had a really good experience with it. But like I said, halfway through where I reached out if there's any games. So he calls me and says, I got a game for you. Minnesota, Wisconsin.

That's what they crafted all Bunyan acts, you know, and it's always a sold out game, and it's gonna be at the Metrodome. It's gonna be a Minneapolis You're gonna be calling the game. And I'm like, oh, that's awesome, you know. And obviously I knew Wisconsin and Minnesota from being in the Big Ten, but I didn't really respect or understand that rivalry until that week. Um Man, the play by play guy's name is escaped in me. He did hockey for a long time, he did baseball. I'll

think of it. Um just a quality broadcaster, really good guy, but a but a guy that had been around and and and done a lot of different games. At this point in his career, was really known as a hockey guy, MLB guy. Um So, but he did some college football that year, and so I'm teamed up with him and he's he's like, have you ever done this? And I said no, and he's like, oh you're Evila. He was just great. He's like, you're gonna have a lot of fun.

You're gonna do a great job. And we worked together for that week and I called that game and it was actually a great game, and Wisconsin ended up winning the game and ran across the field and you know, grabbed the acts and it's like, you know, they're cutting down the goal post or you know, faking like they're cutting down the goal post. But it was just a really cool experience. And this sounds crazy, but of all the things I've ever done, nothing has felt more natural

to me than that been. Like calling a game, like doing the audition did not feel natural to me, um doing you know, all these things that I've ever done, even locally doing radio and doing that Sunday night show that I did, reading prompter didn't feel naturally to me. Calling the Wisconsin Minnesota game felt as natural to me as anything I've ever done. And so that's when I was like, this, this is where I've got to get.

This is what I want to do. When I called that game, and that was the end of the ninety five season, and then as the season ended, a month or two later, they called me back and said, hey, listen, we got another opportunity for you, and we're going to have you do the entire arena football season for this spring and and work with Todd Christiansen, who's going to do the play by play, and you're going to be the color gap man, and you guys gonna call fifteen

weeks throughout the spring and into the summer, and it's gonna be on ESPN. And I was like, in, I'm in. I want the reps that I want to do that. I don't know a thing about arena football, but I'm in and I had So that was what I did in the spring of nine and did. The color guy by the name of Kurt Warner was the star of the league that year. He was the m VT before he went to the Rams, and he played for a

team called the Iowa Barnstormers. So we'd be in like Cedar Rapids, calling games, you know, just all over the place. And I actually had a really cool time time calling the games and getting those those valuable reps doing color work. And then halfway through that season, I get a call that says Craig James has left game day he's going to CBS. To CBS got to the NFL from Fox, so he's going to be part of their new studio show.

We have an opening on college game Day. They literally told me, you're not going to get the job, but at this stage of your career, be really good for you to just go through the experience. We're gonna fly Corso and fouler in. Be good for you to just go through that experience and just kind of see what it's like. So I said, okay, great, flew in in the middle of the week because those those arena games around the weekend, flew in sat down. There's lead Corso

sitting right next to me. I'm like, oh my gosh, like and he could He's just like he is not hey, hey, how you doing, just talking to and uh, how you're gonna kill him? A great jock. You're gonna have fun. Here we go, get ready and then music starts that that that that and Fowlers, you know, welcomes us and we do it. We do a segment. We do like a dummy segment, and I think there were maybe five or six guys that came in. I have no idea

who the other guys were. I think Mike Adamlee might have been one of the other guys, but I'm not sure who the other guys were. And we got done, and a couple of weeks, maybe two or three weeks go by, I go back to an arena football games and my agent called me and said, um, he's like, you're not gonna believe this, but they're going to hire you to do a college game day. I was like, I was in the Detroit airport actually on my way up to Iowa on a connection and stopped at a

pay phone. How about that, Yeah, that's amazing. Yes, And called him on my sprint card, Um the eight and then you wait for the ding and then you dial the number. And called him and he told me, yeah, going to do the you canna do? You've assigning to a three year deal. And that was That was the summer of nineties six and that's that was it. I was doing it ever since. So you're how old in

this at twenty six years old? Now, game day to be fair for people who were listening to us right now in nine is a shadow of what it would become. Right I I did did go on. I mean it was it was just kind of starting to become the iconic show that it would become. But I mean at the age of twenty six, like you just said, your sons are, you know, nineteen years old now at Clemson, like your four years or three years out of college.

I mean, that had to be kind of unbelievable. But also you probably didn't even realize how big it was going to be, or did you at that point in time. Man again, at six, you're thinking of tomorrow. You're not thinking about the show. I just knew that I was on machine, always watched and even at that time, while it didn't have the audience, um that we have now when we show up around the set, I think most people who liked college football tuned into being that show. Yeah,

I think, yeah, yeah. I mean there was that show, and there was a show on CNN with Chuck Uh there. You had a few options if you're a college football fan. But that that show was kind of unique because the correct James and Corso and it was just starting to travel on the road. Um that kind of gave it a you know, kind of a unique feel to it.

But man, I again, you're just flying by the senior You could see in my career how things just kind of went like all of a sudden just cruise and then bing bing bing bing bing, like it just everything just kind of happened at once, and um so I wasn't really thinking where this might go or how long am I going to do this, or I was just thinking honestly going back to you know, going through being honest with yourself. My biggest thing was I'm not going to hide the fact that I'm an anomaly in this

business on a national level level. I'm not a Heisman Trophy winner, i was not a household name on a national level. People in the Big ten region probably have heard of me. People in the SEC A, SEC Big twelve, PAC twelve have literally no idea who I am. So instead of being embarrassed about that or hiding from that, I decided to go back to what I did with that board, which was I'm going to be the hardest

working analysts. So they may not know who I am, but they're going to realize, man, that guy seems pretty prepared. That guy seems that nobody's talking about Like that was my goal from the beginning, was to try to be that guy that people would just because I knew I as a viewer myself. I respected guys like that, so I thought, I don't really know, I'm not talented enough to be a stick guy. I don't really don't even

know what that means. So I'm going to be myself and I'm going to be uh, the most prepared guy on the set. Like those are my goals, and that's what I've decided to do. And I think over the course of a couple of years, and you know, I started to find that people were willing to accept what I had to say because of the way I was working at it. And I think that that kind of allowed me to create a brand and for myself that if even to this day, here we are twenty five

years later. You know, people don't know me like they know Desmond. They know Desmond from winning a Heisman and doing a Heisman pose. You know, they know David Pollock for being whatever he was, three time All American or whatever. You know, like the most guys on TV, they they are known, uh first and foremost for for the kind of player they were. And for me, I think I am known more for for better or worse, for the

analysts that I am on TV. And it's taken five years to to build that up, and like I said, I think it all goes back to me. Instead of being bashful or ashamed of people not knowing who I am, I decided to kind of hit that head on as opposed to running from it and trying to avoid it. What was the first game you did with game Day? First game Day? We did it on the road in ninety six was Michigan at Colorado at fulsome field in Boulder, Colorado.

You and I were talking from it. Came on the air about how beautiful this time of the year it is to go out to the Rockies. He got a chance to do that, and you think about a game in September out in Boulder. Um, they're really at the foothills there, the Rockies. I I just was like, wow, this is incredible. How nervous. How nervous were you before that first show? Um? I was nervous, but I wasn't terrified like I wasn't Um I was. I was in an okay place because the guys that I worked with.

I think the thing that brought me, um some hesitation or some nerves was how would Fowler be towards me? You know, he was such an established leader of that show of corso was just so as soon as you meet him, he's just like if you and I were together right now, we can and had said, hey, coaches, is Clay you don't like? He just has that personality. He just makes you feel welcome. It's just him. Chris is the guy you gotta He makes you feel welcome, but you gotta kind of earn your stripes with him.

And so if I had any trepidation at all, it was this Chris respect me, you know, does he think I'm okay to be on the show? Like? And I wanted to make sure he felt comfortable with me. I didn't really have fear of being on air or nerves of being on air. I just was I just wanted them to know they could count on me as being a good teammate and holding up my end of of the job or my responsibility you know, on the set.

And you know, and I think Chris and I over the years of really built a pretty strong bond, you know, in that regard. But yeah, early years, especially that first year, that was my main thing was I don't know if you know Chris or watch him or been around it, but he is true professional you know, and he's he's his own worst critic for himself and for the show, and is not afraid to talk about that in meetings, and you know, and that's what makes him great, you

know what he does. And so more so than the producers and the bosses, Chris was the guy that I was always trying to make sure kind of get his blessing, I guess more than anything. So when you are doing Game Day and you've been doing it for twenty five years now, I guess or whatever the math is on that, which is wild to think about. And there are a lot of people listening to us right now who are like, I can't believe, you know, like ninety six doesn't seem

very long ago to me. You know, I can think about the players and the games that happened back then, but you think about how many games there have been over the years, and how much you have done. How did you so. One of the things that I talked about with with younger people is writing, radio and TV are all different disciplines and what works really well and one of them might not work in the next might not work in the other. You have to learn how

to be good at all of them. You said you did local radio, you were good at it, It's totally different dynamic. How did you get good at television? Like? Who did you learn from? What did you do to become comfortable? Would you go back and watch old game days? Would you go back and watch games that you called? How did you sort of refine and get better at

your craft? Um? I think the big thing that I did was I had my my eyes open and my ears open, and I was paying attention to other people, most notably Leek Horso, who they was the only other analyst on the set at the time. And what I quickly learned was I was going to be myself. When I first started on the job, a few producers pulled me aside and said, you're going about this wrong. You need to argue more with Corso. You're being too nice

to him. That's not going to work. And because they were used to correct, James and Corso kind of going really going at it. That became their stick was those two arguing with each other. And Craig had a big personality, think kind of just kind of southern guy from Texas and just like, man, oh man, you're crazy, you know, just just and I here, I am grew up with my dad as a coach, all those other coaches that I was more I would. I always treated coaches with respect.

I could never go like, of course, so you're crazy, Like I just couldn't do that. And so, especially how nice he was being to me off air, I could not stick it up. I had to be myself, and so the show changed drastically when I came on because I was not I'd argue with them, but it was in a kind of respectful tone. And so what I did I answer your question was I realized I could never be Lee Corso. But I realized was I thought they hired me to be a football analysts covered to

three technique, inverted safety, four verticals. And what I learned was Lee Corso always says in our meetings, we're in the entertainment business. We are. And what I realized was if you watch game there, you watch Shack and Charles, Like, the reason those two shows work is because they're not beating you over the head with let me show you

how much football I know. Like, don't get me wrong, we'll talk some football and we'll break some film down, but we're more kind of laughing self deprecating, teasing each other. Rinaldi's gonna make you cry. We're gonna come back and we're gonna kind of cry or laugh some more at each other. We're gonna get you some real XCEL football talk. It's kind of like a mixed bag. And what I guess I learned how I personally fit into that was I'm not here to just beat people over the head

with XO talk. See when I first got into it, I thought I was here for exo talk, And when I quickly learned was there's way more more to studio television than just exo talk. And I think being aware of her and just then being an observer and being a listener and being willing to change and being willing to tweak and being willing to kind of stay kind of just me, not trying to be somebody else. I'm

just gonna be me. Um. I think you just kind of grow and develop and kind of put your foot in the water over here a little bit, you see if that kind of feels all right, and maybe go over here a little bit, and you just try to. Most importantly, you just try, and you you do studio work. I mean, you understand when you can when you can be yourself. I think when things typically work the best. Like I hate when our producers right or try to

script something that's going to be funny, because it's never funny. Like, the things that end up being most memorable and funny are the things that are impromptu, are things that are unpredictable. Like if you went to dinner, we wouldn't script out our dinner conversation. Like we could just go to dinner and we hang out and you'd probably end up saying something that kind of had us all laughing or we kind of respond to it someone else to be laughing,

And it's just very natural spontaneous conversation to me. If you can do that, then I think you can have really good TV. It just happens that we're talking college football and coaches and opinions and and things of that nature. And um, I just think that there has to be a willingness to listen and grow and not kind of put yourself into a box. And That's what I've done and I still do. I still feel like I'm changing and growing and adapting, um along the way. How how

have you avoid that? At six? You're basically a contemporary of the players at your age. Now you're a contemporary of the coaches. How has your worldview changed as you've gone from you've got four kids, You've got kids who are going to be freshmen in college. Now I can see this on my own life with you know, you start to see things through the parents eyes as opposed to the kid's eyes. You certainly have had to follow that trajectory in a public way on game day. Have

you felt it? Yeah? Yeah, yeah, for sure. Um, we used to kind of kid Courso because he was the guy that saw things through coaches eyes and that generation, and we were the younger guys, and we've kind of kind of kind of elbow him and giggle at him. And I think what I have found is having kids Number one helps you know, to keep you kind of plugged into to the world and and that kind of that next generation. I think that's number one for me. Number two is I think that, um, you don't always

have to agree with what you're seeing. Um, like we were talking about the transfer portal. I'm not trying to sound like a guy from a different generation like these kids today are crazy. I'm just trying to tell you

what what that experience did for me by staying. And I think people who jump to the transfer portal have to you know, as I said, it's an individual case by case study, but I do think that, um, I have some experience there, and I I refuse to be like trawl Line and the Sam guy like this is the way it is, it's the way it should be, this way it always be like I'm just not that guy. UM. I try to really stay plugged in, you know, strategically, but also I think as you're saying, just the you know,

the way the world has changed. I stay plugged in with Lincoln Riley. You know. I used to talk with Pete Carroll all the time, and I love to have heart to hearts with these coaches when there's no camera on, there's no mike, it's just me and them just talking, and I like to find out like this is going on. Since the mid nineties, I've done this, so I do it every year. Just talk to them about life, just talk to them about their challenges with they're facing in

their locker room. And I try to be the guy that's plugged into ten, not the guy that was plugged in the that's trying to figure out, so what's is it's still going on in ten you know, I think people that that do what we do, whether it's coaches or broadcasters or whoever it is, it's around for you know, a you know, a couple of decades or longer, you're

you're making a big mistake if you think. And you can listen to broadcaster as it tell guys that they talked about when they played and you know they played like twenty five years ago, like what is you what is your experience as you're you're playing days? What does that have to do with this third and six? For

Aaron Rodgers? Like nothing? You know. So so I try to be a guy that talks about today as much as I can, not only through my own life experiences, but through a lot of work with the players from today, talking to them about, you know what, what their challenges are that they face, and then also, like I said,

the coaches. And I think I've just found by doing that, being inquisitive, having open dialogue with guys about not just football but about life, I've just found that helps me kind of stay plugged into um just being relevant, you know, to to today, whether it was or or or if we're talking, like I just feel like that's part of my responsibility is to continue to kind of grow and and change and band from one way or another with some of the social demands and challenges that everybody faces,

whether it's players or coaches. Fox Sports Radio has the best sports talk lineup in the nation. Catch all of our shows at Fox Sports Radio dot com and within the I Heart Radio apps. Search f s R to listen live. Talking to Kirk urb Straight, I'm Clay Travis. This is Wins and Losses Podcast. You are a voice for a massive audience when you call a game. You've got a big audience on game day, but the audience for calling a college football national championship game or playoff

game is seismically larger than that. We're in a world where audiences are diminishing almost everywhere but sports, right, Um, how do you talk to everyone? It's it's it's a broad question, but I'm curious how much you think about it, Because you're talking to the eighty year old grandma when you call a game, and you're talking to the six year old who maybe watching his first national title game, and they all are hearing your voice. It's very unique.

You know, back in the day when we grew up, everybody would watch, for instance, The Cosby Show, and every sitcom had to appeal to everybody. Right, you are still in the business of appealing to everybody in an age when everybody wants their voice to be heard and every sentence, you know, gets dissected. I'm curious how much that has changed as you've called games, and whether you even really think about it and how you go about talking to

an audience that big man, great question. Um, you know what I'm talking about, right, because you remember like it used to be like you would sit down and everybody would watch the same television show together, and Grandma would like the Cosby Show the same way that six year old would watch The Cosby Show, and they had all those kids to play the different role the grandparents are on there. Nowadays everything is a niche, right, Like your

boys are nineteen. They may love something that you've never heard of. In fact, they probably do, and you may love something that they've never heard of. Yet you're both gonna sit down and watch the college football National Championship Game. Yeah, I think about it a lot. Um. I I feel that ESPN has put me You talked earlier when you introduced me is kind of the face of the sport, voice of the sport. And I don't sit, you know, walk around and like to announce that or like to

think that or anything like that. But the reality is because of the role that ESPN has put me in. I mean, they put me into the Saturday night window back in two thousand and six, and I started calling games on on ABC and started to do their their biggest bowl games. Um, I've called more Rose Bowls as an analyst than anybody and called more of these championships than anybody. And so you know, I as much as I looked at and I'm never gonna ever compare myself

to a guy like al Michaels or Keith Jackson. But for generation of fans, like they're going to hear my voice on a lot of these bigger games, and that's something that I'm proud of. That's something that I definitely think about. That's something that when fans come up to me and want to talk, uh, I'm keenly aware of

giving them a good moment. Like I don't want to ever be a guy I probably to a fault when it comes to college football fans and will stay disorderly I want to give everybody I come in contact with um a good memory, because I feel like I feel like that's part of my role, you know, as to be like the ambassador of college football. I try. I try to be the voice of reason of it anyway, you know. And um I, when I call a game, I could very easily call the game so just coaches

and players could understand the game. But I intentionally called the game so that eight year old grandma you're talking about, or that six or seven or eight year old it's watching it. I try to paint a picture and try to describe the action. Because Mike Terrico, when I first started to do games with Mike on Thursday nights, I never really called a game in my life. He said, I'm going to do the job of telling what is happening. If you can just focus on this for me, tell

me how or tell me why it's happening. That's that's the only lane I want you to stay in. And that was back in I think it was the first year did he and I in Courso were calling games, and I'll never forget him telling me that. To this day, I try to give you the how or the why when I'm calling the game, and I try to do it in a way that play you or your wife or your kids or whoever can can understand it. And that's that's kind of my role. That's my job, and

you don't want to dump it down. So it's like elementary. But you also, you know, I've got a chance to draw things. They try to help people the way I describe something. You'll very rarely hear me say a football term without supporting it with what I mean by saying that football term. So yeah, I think about what you're asking all the time, and I think that it's you know,

it's it's something that I definitely take very seriously. And and again I want to again point out it's not as if I'm putting myself into that stratosphere of of college football announcers. I just feel that ESPN because of the role that they put me in, you know, game day for it's year on game day calling the games. You know, before with Brent on that big window on Saturday night and now with Fouler and that same window,

doing all these postseason games. You know, we do the the bigger playoff, the playoff game, we do, uh, the national championship, and you do that year after year after year after year. You know, you're like you say, you're voicing. Your face becomes synonymous with with the bigger games, and so I think it has as much to do with the roles that ESPN has put me in as much

as anything. It's definitely something that I've seen. UM proud to be in the position that I'm in, and it's something that I definitely think about and UH and take great sense applied of trying to be that person for for fans. Be sure to catch live editions of out Kicked the Coverage with Clay Travis week days at six am Eastern, three am Pacific. The last couple of questions for you here and again, I'm Clay Travis. This is

Wins and Losses with Kirk herb Street. One of the challenges you talk about the good things at college football, it's the passion you moved from Columbus down to Nashville. UH. One part of that is because in Columbus, obviously everything is Ohio State. You and your family have incredible connections to Ohio State. You you fought it out, became a Buckeye starting quarterback. I mean, all the different aspects of

your career associated with Ohio State. Why did you feel the need to move to Nashville And how are you treated now? Because I'm curious. You're a twenty six year old kid and people may know you vaguely, but obviously as game day has exploded, your sort of public persona has exploded exploded to how much of a regular life are you able to have? Uh? Yeah, it's it's when

you go back to the era when we moved. It was just when um, you know, I don't even know if Twitter just really started back then, but it was just starting to become a little bit louder, you know that the feedback was becoming a little bit louder, and people's opinions and people could reach almost touch you with with how they felt about you. It was a little bit more transparent, a little bit more in your face. And I have nothing but great things to say about

Ohio State and their fans. You know, I think that like all fans, you know, Tennessee has them, Alabama l s u Any Rabbit Sand bas has and everybody. The fans of of these schools are embarrassed of that radical three or four percent. There's just unreasonable and crazy. Yeah, and when when you have them and you're living with a young family. You know, nineties seven percent of higher state fans, I think her obviously great people and great

fans of passionate fans. Those three percentersn't have to kind of make you take a step back and and wonder. I mean, you watched the news today and it didn't take a whole lot since fit people over the head. And so the fact that it was I was so visible right in the middle of of a suburb in Columbus, people pretty obviously would know when I'm home and when

I'm away. Um, we thought, my wife and I both thought about possibility of even though we both love Columbus, is possibly one day move being away and trying to get a little bit more trivacy or just peace of mind. And we decided on Nashville, which ended up being a you know, a great move in a great city. You

know very well. We didn't know a whole lot about it until we moved here, and we actually thought of moving to Austin because of my travels, That's one of the towns that had really had stood out to me. And after we went down and back to Columbus. We stopped in Nashville and looked around and and just couldn't believe in we kind of a school there that that

that we ended up sending our boys too. But when I walked through the school, I remember vividly now the sixth grade, which is the oldest class, down the last wing in this hallway, this hallway, and reading there their mission statements to each of the individuals had written that particular year in sixth grade and read one, two, three, the fourth, the fifth, the sixth, and I kind of turned over the guy that was taking us on our tour and I was like that their parents, you know,

right right these forum and They're like, no, that they wrote him. And I'm like, wow, it's just blown away by or the things that they were saying. And so I kind of walked out of that well meeting me heap a hold my life. I said, Man, I don't know about you, but I want my kids to go to this school. I don't even know where we're gonna live,

but I wanted to go to this school. And so that that walking through that school really changed our decision to be instead of thinking about it, like let's do it, and we sent our kids to that school and we ended up moving down and thinks we've been down here now eight years, which is incredible to think. Um, My, my order boys were in fourth grade, we moved here and now they're freshman in college and so um, things

have been great. It's it's definitely a different way of living compared to where we're from, as far as the schools and not. You know, people listening, we won't understand this, but we're not used to play the way they divide things up by if hear in Williamson County you know, da da da dada. In Davidson County you need to go to that. And we were like, we just were used to whatever suburb you lived in. You know, that's where you kind of went to elementary school, middle school,

high school. So we've had to adjust a little bit to learning all that and there's so many different choices. It's you know, down here to go to school. But overall, you know from living down here, people are incredibly cool and gracious. And again I don't want to make it sound like people in Ohio and Columbus are not. Um, it's just when you play football Ohio State and you go on TV and you have to be fair and objective.

I think the maturity of people really appreciate that because they know when they listen to you, they're always going to get how you really feel. Um And again, I think it's just for that that that radical group that's that's out there, that for us was just enough to to maybe maybe it's a good time with a young family to to uh set up camp somewhere else for the time being. And and we've enjoyed. It's a great town.

And we didn't realize, man we moved here, Nashville would grow and become this quote unquote it's city, because literally a year or two after we moved here, that show Nashville came out, and the growth of this city has just exploded. And it's almost like living in a different city in just the eight years we've been here. I can't imagine what it's like for you and for others that have been here for a long time but still just very fond of it and just appreciated our time here.

For sure. This is I think maybe the most difficult thing you do in general. You know all of these coaches very well, especially over the years. You get to know them and you talked about how you'll talk about things other than football. You know a lot of the players very well. When there are difficult stories surrounding the coaches or the players, how do you deal with the private person that you know and their public persona which

may be very much different. And the reason why I asked it is as as I have moved into the arena where I make the living that I do. I like to judge people based on face to face interactions, and a lot of time you get the opportunity to do that, and that's very good. But the public is judging people on their public perception, and sometimes there can be a mountain range of difference between what someone is

like in your experience and what their public persona is. Like, how do you handle stories like those where you're required to talk about somebody that you know, may know well personally, but publicly that situation is difficult, right, especially in these fraught times where it's almost like if you defend somebody who's in a tough spot, then suddenly you're stained by them, right, yeah, yeah, yeah,

that's tough, And you're right. You get to know these guys on a personal level, and then you know whether they get caught up in something or you know, they're they're being judged on wins and losses or whatever it might be. And now you've got to go on TV and say they don't deserve to have their job anymore or something like that, and you're gonna have you know, that's going to be an incredibly influential perspective to take. And it's more difficult when you know that person than

it is if you don't. Yeah, I guess that my of coping with this because at espn UM you probably have noticed in the last three or four years you watch almost any analysts on TV that they're really encouraging analysts to have really strong opinions. Yes they're calling it cutting true and and they want you to be out there and you know, kind of take a stance, and uh, they're rewarding for rewarding people who are willing to go out there and not be afraid to say things. You know.

And I guess in my case, from doing this for so long and going back to my role as I like I said, I try to be in my mind, there's so much a violatility on this side and there's so much volatility over there on that side. Did I try to be a guy that's trying to which is hard to do in today's society, whether sports or politics. I try my best to be strong with my thoughts, but also to try to be UM. If the person I'm talking about, we're sitting on the desk, That's the

way I always think about it. They may not like what I have to say, but they're not going to feel disrespected. And the way I said does that make sense? You know? So if Urban Myers and the Crosshairs, whoever it is, you know, Jim Trustle who they may not agree or like what I have to say. You know, Urban Meyer was caught up in that stuff UM last summer and I go on it seems like every week we go on the air and talk about it, and

I again, I would. I would, in my mind envision Urban sitting on our desk, and I would talk as if he were sitting there, and he might look at me and not not like what I was saying, but he would he would. It's when emotions kind of settled for him. He would look back at it and at least understand what I was saying and not feel that

he was being attacked or it was personal. I think sometimes in our business because people are trying to steal the moment or they're trying to capitalize on an opportunity for them personally. You know, they love to kind of like just go crazy, you know, and you see that every like if you and I turn on our TVs right now, someone's going crazy on something, you know, like

that's that's what everybody does. And I always feel like, you know, I'll go crazy if it's a kid that's like being more about himself than the team, or a guy that's that's that's show voting and disrespecting somebody like,

that'll get me worked up pretty quickly. But when guys gets guys get in some trouble, I try to be, like I said, a guy that's going to be strong, but at the same time fair uh as much as you can and and not dance on their grave or try to try to take advantage of of the you know, a counch of sarkas of over the top kind of

kind of stuff. Did a lot of guys do who do you think the coaches that you've worked with and that have coached over the years would be great on the game day desk if they were willing to do it because there's a lot of guys like Urban is gonna be on the Fox College Show right, Like, so far, it doesn't seem to me like Urban has leaned into the idea that he's a TV guy. Right. You talked about the difference between a coach and a TV guy.

You'd have to lean into the idea of I'm willing to be a TV guy like Lee Corso has great coach. But you said it best. He said, I'm an entertainer, right, Like we're in the entertainment business. I'm not in the coaching business anymore. Who would be willing in your experience to lean into it? Who could be great at at your business? That's a tough thing. I I have talked openly, I should say privately openly with with coach Saban about doing it, and I think he would be I think

he would be a superstar. He's almost like, yeah, Hutton like he he speaks so softly when he's on the desk with us, you know, because he'll he'll come on a lot, whether it's when we do game day in Tuscaloosa, he'll come on with us in the morning or obviously is his team the rare moment they don't make the playoffs, he'll be are one of our guests analysts, you know that we'll have at the championship game and just you

know what he's talking. He's talking so softly, yet you're like leaning into him because you don't want to miss anything that he's saying, because he just he's like Yoda. You know, He's got so much to say that you just want to like write everything down that he says. And I think he I think that the energy of that show w bring out aside to him, that would be a lot of fun um. Not that he's ever going to try to one day, you know, try to be a leak corso, but I think I think because

of his knowledge, he would do it. Do you think he would do it? When I do? I do. I think he's still you know, I just got the hip done, and I think he's still feeling like especially after the way last year ended, I still think he thinks he's got so much left at him that I don't think he's he's thought about it, like, let's do it. But every time he gets done being a guest analyst with us, he always comes over to me, Hey, Hey, what what what how do you say, how do you think that win? Bo?

How was my fan? Coach? You're doing great? I mean, I'm telling you, this is your thing. He's like, I had some fun that I had a good time, you know. So I when he I think when he's done, I think we could definitely talk him into joining us. I really do, because I say what he'll find is this keeps you involved enough for especially the game day. You're going out to the games and you know you're you're

you're around the crowd, you're feeling that energy. Um, it's not obviously nothing close to wearing his white half zip and jogging out in the field with with the Crimson Tide. But when when he closes that chapter, and I don't I don't want to portray as if he's in a hurry to close that because I think he's feeling like he's got a lot, a lot to do, and I know he wants to advantage last year's lost to Clemson.

But I think he's I would guess he's got another I don't know, four or five years in him would be my guests minimum. Um, But when he whatever that is that he's done, he would be the first guy who's currently coaching that I think could be really really good. Um at joining us on the set and being in TV. You're gonna be calling some point, I don't know. You may already have your schedule. I'm not sure if it's out at a Clemson game. Your sons will be freshman

on the Clemson football team. This is something that you may have thought of at some point might arise. You know, as you were calling games over the years, have you thought about what that will feel like? Uh? You know, I guess if you think back, Greasy, you know, called games alongside of Keith Jackson that his son was involved in. I can't even imagine how hard that is to do.

You talked about just watching them play. Have you thought about what that feeling will be like to look out onto the field as your own kids run out as a member of a college football team. I have not. I have not. I'll just say this, um my kids.

The fact that they have an opportunity that they went to Clemson's football camp last summer and did well enough to kind of raise uh Dabo and some of the staffs eyebrows and to call me and say, you know, we we we we might want to talk to you about having these guys come on and has preferred walk ons, And I had no idea really what that meant until we visited with him and started to talk more about it.

And I'll be honest with you, man, They're probably very few programs and coaches that I would feel comfortable with and sending my my own boys to go play in that role, whether or not a five star or four star or whatever, they're going as preferred walk ons, And it's it's I'm not picking favorites. I'm not picking sides.

I'm just telling you what I see and I really believe from the bottom of my heart, the whether you're Trevor Lawrence or my twins or anybody in between, you're going to be treated based on are you going to class, are you trying hard, are you understand your assignments, are you showing up to meetings on time? Are you treating the trainer as well? Are you treating people with respect? Like so like football for me was with my twins.

I'm not saying it's it doesn't matter, of course it matters, but as a dad with with two freshmen that are he's going a red shirt this year and then spent another four years with Dabo and his guys, his staff pouring into them like that. That to me, is is incredible. And when when when they talk to me about wanting to do that, Like I said that, that's one of

the few schools I would let him go. And I think the fact da Will lived himself at Alabama, I think probably has a lot to do with why he runs his program and why he treats the players all exactly the And it's one thing to say that, it's another thing to actually do it. And and you know, my kids have been there, like I said, about a month now, and the coaches have not been able to

be there. They're on their on their summer vacations and with their families, and I think my boys will come home this weekend and then then they'll go back and they're actually taking summer classes all the freshmen do, and then they'll get going um like July one, and then they'll start being with their position coaches and all that. But up to this point, you know, they've never called, you know, we we extend and said anything, but everything has just been positive about the way the players have

treated them. And I'm not surprised. I just bring that up because um, people have said, why are they a Clemson, why are they not at Ohio State? Or why did

I at this place? I think it has more to do with just Clemson have to be a school that presented them with this opportunity, and then me knowing what I know about about that program, it was more of me just kind of being very appreciative and excited for them to have the opportunity as far as calling the games, and it won't even cross my mind, um that they're out there, you know, part of that team as red

Shirts still dress for every home game. Ironically, Game Day is doing a kickoff to the A c C Network into the season, starting uh in Death Valley for Georgia Tech that Thursday night game that they opened the season with. I think it's on. I want to say that August one. Think it would be because Florida Miami if I'm not mistaken, right, Yeah, doing that and then the twenty Nights will be there, so they'll be there and be great to see them, um,

you know, being a part of that program. But as far as you know doing with c D if that ever comes to fruition and I have to worry about one of them the receiver, and one of them is a dB. You know, if they're ever out there and I'm calling the game, that will be a great problem for me to have to overcome if it ever comes to that. But for now, man, I'm just just so proud and excited that they are a part of of that program and look forward to seeing how much they

grow and change and develops young men. Just being a part of that, been around Dabbo and that staff. What do it feel like to drop him off? For me? It's very hard. My wife still, I think, is managing it. I think the fact that we get them home this weekend for a couple of days. Uh, there's two more days that they have off in August. Well, there's like a weekend I want to say eighteens somewhere around there

that they're allowed to come home. It hasn't quite hit me like it's for real, for real until maybe those two trips are over because she's going to get to go to all the home games go see him. Of course, I unless we unless we do a Clemson home game, I will not. Um. It's hard, man. We were a we're parents that live and breathe in the front row like we we're just hands on, you know, just plus to be in that position. And so you know, when you take two out of your fool or out at

one time. The hard part is when you go upstairs and you go down the hallway where there's usually usually four of them and now there's just two, and you open up their door and like their bed is still perfectly made, like nothing's happened in their room, you know. So that part's kind of eerie to see both their rooms just completely clean, and which is never the case when they live here. And uh, you know, but it's

part of life. And like I said, it's the fact that they're on this journey and where they are, uh, that that gives you peace of mind and kind of gets excited about what they're what they're part of, and what they're about to face, you know, for these next five years. But it's hard, man, It's hard to let go when you when you when you're heavily involved. As

you know, some parents out there can can relate. It's it's weird too all of a sudden let two of them go and and uh, now they're not at the house. So now we're a family of four instead of a family of six. We got a rising jr. And a rising seventh grader still here at the house. Be sure to catch live editions about Kicked the coverage with Clay Travis week days at six am Eastern, three am Pacific. We're talking to Kirk Herbster he wins and the losses. I know I said last question a long time ago.

I actually mean the last question here you have said, like, I don't want to put myself in the category with Keith Jackson of the world. But I think right now, if you probably did, it's a it's a cliche and a trend in sports to do the Mount Rushmore. I think you're close, if not already on there to being

on the Mount Rushmore. For college football fans, you may not want to accept it, but for for for people that you know, if you right now, we're pick for people to put on the Mount Rushmore of college football. Certainly from the calling perspective, you mentioned how many Rose Bowls you've called. The College Football Playoff replacing the BCS. I know you called some of those BCS games, but now the College Football Playoff just makes it so much bigger.

I feel like you're not an old guy now you've got a lot of years, especially if you look at the Brent Musburgers of the world and look at Billy Packer, even like how long you can call games because people get used to your voice and get used to you being there. How wild is that too? Here, as a kid who grew up a fan of college football, to think I am one of whether you want to admit it or not, you are the most iconic faces associated with college football, that blows me away. I mean, it's

it's saying. I mean, if people would ever view me that way and that way, I mean, that's that's that's for me, That'd be a pretty good thing to be remembered by, because, like I said, I would just a kid growing up in Southwest Ohio and it's and around and love sports and just happened to love college football and and too lucky enough to be able to play it and not lucky enough to be able to cover it and talk about it. And you know, I I have always tried to make my job about the players

and about the coaches and about the storyline. That's I think part of the reason I like the NFL. I love college football, and I I try to get out of the way of those stories. And I think people have asked me all the time, man, what do you get tired of it and get bored of it? I'm like, not at all, how can you? I mean, things turn over all the time. I mean there's players that come and go, and there's great players and great stories that

come and go. They'll be you know, crank it up this year in a couple of weeks and we'll have new players start to surface and new stories and and so for me, I think that's the great thing about it.

But yeah, I can't even fathom that, Like, if people would ever think of me in that way like that, that would that would really blow me away, And it would be an incredible honor because the way I've always looked at at those guys and the guys that called the game is the most notably Keys, but there's been so many others, whether it's brand or I go back to like Bill Fleming and Chris Schenko. I mean, they're just amazing guys from but even Al Michaels when he

was younger, Uh a great job with college football. So um yeah, it's that's uh something. One day, way down the road, I'll look back at and think about it right now. I just keep trying to prepare and uh and be ready to go for the next game. We'll be watching this fall as we have been for a long time. Kirk Herbstreet has been our guest. I appreciate the time. I know it's it's been a long conversation,

but it feels like the snap of fingers to me. Dide, you have cornered the market on questions like take a clad for this or something like you really or good at asking questions. You know what I think is what would I want? I've I've never done it, you know.

I used to when I was a practicing attorney. I would sit down and I would have to write out a list of questions, you know, to think about for a case, and I try to listen to the answers, but then ask the question that if I were out there listening, you know, you're talking about how you call the game so that you know you want to And I think that's the key. You don't want to appeal to the six year old and the eighty year old.

I think, what would I want to hear somebody in your position to answer and try to get out of the way. Most of the time because what I find is, uh, usually you know, like there aren't that many forms. That's kind of the goal of this, right is to give people a chance to actually speak in something other than a ten second clip, right, which is great. People are great at at clips and everything else, but you don't really get to know them. And the thing I love

about radio is and now this podcast form. I think the people who have finished this conversation are gonna be like, Man, I've watched Kurk Kirk Street on Game Day for twenty four years, but I feel like I really know a lot more about him now than I did before I started the conversation, before I started listening, And that's kind of the goal. H you got it now, And honestly, I remember talking when you when you wrote that article

years ago. I remember walking out of there and thinking, man, he has he has good questions and you just did it again. So obviously that's your thing. This podcast is great, but that that could be a future TV show for you too, or you can sit down with a guest and and ask him questions. That would be it would be a huge success. Yeah, I think it'd be a lot of fun, but a key is having guests who come on and answer questions honestly like you just did.

So thanks. So you can follow Kirk at Kirk herb Street on Twitter if you want to follow him give him feedback on this. It would be actually, I hope positive as opposed to going after him because he picked the team you don't you didn't want to win. Uh And like I said, we'll be watching you on on ESPN and ABC all fall along and for years to come. Awesome, man, great, great talking to you. Hope to see you soon. Yeah, for sure. That's Kirk curb Street. I'm Clay Travis. This

has been Wins and Losses. If you enjoy it, give us a rating on the podcast and go listen to some of the other conversations. I think you guys will enjoy them. Hey, that