Clay Travis chats with Darren Rovell

he is? Uh he has. We've been talking. We went back and forth on Twitter about this. People out there who haven't been paying attention. Earlier this week, Darryl Moray, the the general manager of the Houston Rockets, and a tweet supportive of democracy protests in Hong Kong, which is a semi autonomous region of China. The Chinese government flipped out over this at the same time that basically the NBA was supposed to be having a goodwill tour and

everything has fallen apart since then. We are talking now. On Thursday afternoon, they played the first preseason game between the Lakers and the Nets, but the but China mandated that there would be no media availabilities associated with that. In the NBA acquiesced to those requirements. China also refused to play the games in the country. You could watch the game here in the United States on the NBA UH network if you put it on early this morning. So, uh, Darren,

So let's let's start here. Uh. My contention is that this is a body blow of a significant magnitude to the NBA's over overall brand, which I believe is rooted in authenticity. And the authenticity that the NBA has sold, at least to a large percentage of its fan base is our players are real, They say what they think.

We don't police their opinions on anything. And now the NBA has found itself confronted with a true issue of a substantial global nature, unlike let's say, the transgender bathroom law in North Carolina, which led the team to abandon the state of North Carolina, or something as relatively inconsequential as the use of the word owner, which the NBA replaced with governor. Do you believe and agree with me that this has been a overall very bad week for the NBA. Let's let let let me just start by

going going back a little bit. Daryl Morey is the GM of the Houston Rockets. He's not the GM of the Memphis Grizzlies or another team. The reason why that's important is because Killman for Tita just bought this team for two point two billion dollars, and probably ten percent of that valuation is based on the fact that through Yao Ming, the Rockets became the most relevant team in China more than their relevance deserves, more than they deserve at all. Um, And so what percent? So let me

cut you off there. What percentage of that two point one billion dollar valuation of the Houston Rockets do you think was attributable to their overall brand value in China? Uh? At least ten, I would think, I would think more.

But two million dollars you think connected? Yes? Yes? And if you were to tell me that, um, there's going to be horrible relations for five years and the Houston Rockets at least for five years with no foreseeable future of returning to where they were before, I would say that, you know, it's three hundred or five hundred million dollars off. Um, Yes, this is a this was a Collot. This is this was a horrible, horrible week for the NBA, So let's

put that in context. But the fact that it was the rockets and the fact that the guy who kicked down the door, Yao Ming, had to make a comment, he couldn't hide because he is running the Chinese Basketball Association, So it could not have been worse. From that standpoint, What do you think Darryl Moray was thinking? Do you think he had any clue what he was stepping into when he decided to tweet? Why do you think he decided to do it? Okay, So I've done about a

hundred fifty thousand, hundred sixty thousand tweets. I don't know if this is the same for you for nearly a hundred nearly a hundred thousand of tweets, by the way, for me, so so for the five absolutely horrific tweets that I put out, there is one thing in common. I was not a focused. My twins were crying. I was doing something else. I was watching something else. I truly Daryl Morey's a smart guy. He's an m I

t he's a Northwestern guy. I mean I think that in the moment, whether he was drinking or whether he was just not a focused He knew what he was saying, but did not did not digest the fact in the moment for some reason. How perilous this was, be sure to catch live editions about kicked the coverage with Clay Travis week days at six am Eastern three am Pacific. And it's interesting because we talked about this a little bit. Uh,

I know, we went back and forth on Twitter. I believe about this the most expensive tweets that have ever been sent. Elon Musk had his issue with the Securities and Exchange Commission when he said he was going to take Tesla private for four hundred and twenty dollars and then later had to pay a huge fine and I think give up its chairmanship or a part of the governing structure of Tesla as a result. You had Roseanne

lose her show over her attack on Valerie Jarrett. You have had Donald Trump certainly has sent tweets that have either hurt the market cap or impacted the overall start market.

A gender Kardashian correct, there was about Snapchat that wasn't overall like basically, I think I can't remember if it was Kylie Jenner or Kendall Jenner and Frankly, I can't tell the difference between the two, but one of them said that Snapchat is is like the new design on Snapchat is awful, and it was a cataclysmic hit to their stock. Nike obviously announces Kaepernick has a drop, then

goes back up. But the difference, I would say in general with those is the stock market value, you know, like adjust every single day, So unlike those where they can bounce around with stock prices and everything else, this has more of I think an impactful and potentially lingering resonance than some of those do. Would you agree? Yes? And you know, I want to go back because I want to be able to answer your question. You know,

you talked about authenticity now. I never I still thought it was the Jordan's I wasn't tricked by their social warrior status. I thought it was very much the Jordan Republican Dubai shoes too. Um and I do agree that it looks shallow to not engage in this when you have issues of human rights and lack of freedom. But you know what it's it's the truth is and they

can never say this. It's not important to them. It's not important to their lives, and that's why they can't talk because and maybe that's horrible, but it's they can't. They can't. They can relate to police brutality and wear shirts I can't breathe, but they cannot relate to a place that is not free and where you're persecuted and thrown in jail for things in America that they just can't.

They can't relate or they can't relate that quickly. And so I think they're being honest by not saying anything. But I also do think because if they said something, if it was what you really wanted to hear, it be really ugly. But I do think it is a shot against their authenticity. The question is what does what is that worth? And I don't think it's worth that much. Okay,

I disagree. I think it's worth substantiable. Let's take away from the individual players for a moment and let me just say I think the NBA opened itself up to this accusation of hypocrisy, and Adam Silver did as well. And this is not something that's unique to me. I wrote this three years ago, and it's not something that's

unique just to the NBA either. It annoys me to no end when people decide to say, like I think there were a couple of rock bands, for instance, that said, Hey, I'm not going to play in North Carolina because I disagree with the transgender bathroom bill in the North Carolina

state legislature. But those same rock stars or rappers or whoever they may be, are willing to go to all sorts of kleptocracies around the world and play concerts in those places, and they don't care at all about the fact that they're playing in front of an audience that doesn't have the same basic human rights that they take for granted as Americans. I would say, you are you are? You are believing that there should be consistency, and I

think in life there is not consistency. You know there when when something is closer to you, even geographically, you feel different about it. I would suggest that this is that what I think is happening here is I never bought into this woke universe of response. I thought it was something that to me, if you're going to be considered brave, and I've said this for a long time, you have to risk life, liberty, or at minimum something very dear to you, in order to be truly called brave, right,

I think that's a air definition of bravery. The NBA and the players have not risked anything by the stances that they have taken in the United States related to politics. I would say that for Steve Kerr, I would say that for Greg Popovich, I would say that for Lebron James, I would say that for Adam Silver. They have gone after targets that are not in the wheelhouse of their existing fan base. If they are going to do that,

and again, I I am of the ILK that believes that. Ultimately, if the NBA had just said all along, hey, we're about trying to make as much money as a capitalistic organization as is possible, then I think people like me would not have called them out on hypocrisy. I don't mind that, right. I understand what Disney is trying to do with China. I understand what Apple is trying to do with China. All these big multinational global brands that have to somehow in order to make money off China,

acquiesced to some Chinese directives. I don't think it's smart as a as a political matter, but that's for governmental relations. I don't really get involved with individual brands, but you're you're, you're basically upset with the self branding and the societal branding of the NBA players as social warriors at whatever cost. Yeah,

and well, because there is no cost to them. I mean they they have, you know, been praised and and and and gotten treated as if they are incredibly brave for stances that they have to get required that require

no risk. And what happens for its icons. We we we overestimate, you know, we we talk about how charitable they are, and you know, and then you look behind it and you see that, you know, they don't give any money to their own foundations, and we prop these guys up on a pedestal for everything that they do. I think there's some truth to that, but I think there's a different level that the NBA received, And I

think the media was culpable here. And I do think I'm curious if you agree with me here the NBA, the media that covers the NBA, if you compare them in general to the media that covers the NFL, is much less contentious and much more akin to a cheerleader group than it is to a rigorous and why do you think that agreed and that and that's that's that's also because they've they've had practice the NFL. I think the media has feels less pressure on itself because Roger

Goodell is universally hated but much. I think before this, I think Adam Silver before this was you know, lauded and loved and and seen as smart. But I think that's because to a large extent, the people who cover the NBA agree with the social causes that NBA players and owners in the league has its best. No. I

think it's because they're more comfortable listen. When when you're a reporter, you have to know when to take your shots and if taking your shots are worth it, taking shots at Roger Goodell or the establishment of the NFL or the union. It's easier to recover from taking those shots because you have the whole world behind you. It's chicken or egg. I mean, it's like you know you have. It's because there has been so much negative and the

public agrees with the negative. That's what frees up NFL reporters from being able to criticize in the way that NBA reporters don't. I think that's interesting, but to me, the purpose of having a free and independent media is having media members who are brave enough not to worry

about who's lining up behind them. I can maybe I'm rare in this, but I can legitimately say when I do my radio show, or I do my periscope, Facebook, or I write my columns, I never think are people going to agree with what I say or what I write? I think, do I believe? But but don Clay, you don't have to show up at the arena every day. You don't have to you don't have to show your face.

But but that goes to the point, that goes to the point of yeah, that's what makes you you, but it also makes you more comfortable by the virtue of the fact that you don't have to show your face. Well, but most of those most of those guys are useless. I mean this goes to a larger context of what's the value of most people who cover a team? Not much? I mean, right, like if you took out if you knocked out of the people who show up for a press conference and only allowed two percent of people to

ask the questions. And I've been arguing this for a long time. The value of the press conference would be higher because there's a huge percentage of people there that provide actually nothing of value based on their attendance there. So look, if if Lebron James said, Hey, I'll have a sit down with you and you can ask me any question under the sun, I would do it. He wouldn't do it because I would actually ask him questions that he doesn't want to answer, I always say on

my radio. And he believes, and he believes as all these NBA stars believed that they should be afforded the right to pick and choose the questions. Now, now, I've never said that they were social warriors. I never said that they deserved more than I thought they deserved that society. That's not my problem. But yes, I mean they're they're going to pick and choose because they feel like they deserve the right to do that, because they've achieved basketball

success and they don't want anything to compromise them. Yeah. I don't think that there's any danger to them though, is my point? Like, if Lebron James came out and truly wanted to be the Mohammed Ali of our generation as opposed to lazy people who haven't studied history, comparing him to Mohammed Ali. He could say it's more profitable

to pick and choose, correct. I understand that. But if Lebron James truly wanted to be Mohammed Ali, he could come out and say, I believe all one point four billion people in China should have the same basic human rights that we have in America, and the fact that they don't is wrong. It's a very simple statement, but it worth eight million dollars a year for him not to say that. Okay, but he's got hundreds of millions of dollars, and so Mohammad Ali risked his entire career

in order to become Muhammad Ali. I mean, he took a stand on a contentious social issue that a lot of people disagreed with. For all of Lebron's talk about how brave he is and how active he is, what's the most controversial thing that Lebron James has ever said. I'm taking my talents to South Beach. It was entirely a decision rooted in sports. He's never said anything remotely comparable to I ain't got no quarrel with the Viet Com which is what Muhammad Ali said. You do have

to be fair, you do have to compare generations. So like, would Muhammad Ali be who he was if the endorsements were dangling the way they're dangling, And that's a great question. Maybe maybe he never would have. Like Lebron is a step up from Jordan's. Jordan wouldn't talk about anything, So Lebron's a step up. He'll talk about things he's comfortable with, but he will talk. Jordan wasn't comfortable with talking about Ain't Steven I would? I would disagree, And that's an

interesting argument. You can argue that Jordan was a step Lebron's a step up from Jordans. I actually disagree. I think what Jordan represented was the goal of appealing to everyone with the excellence of his talents. But he only wanted for his talents in basketball to be his calling card.

That is, to me different than Lebron, who I think recognized that he was not going to ever reach the six titles of Michael Jordan's or reach the elevated stature worldwide of Michael Jordan's, and so about twelve or fourteen years into his into his career, he pivoted and decided, I'm going to try to become a figure like Muhammad Ali more than I'm going to be a figure like Michael Jordan's. And as a result, they give both of these guys. You can you give these guys, both of

these guys way too much credit. I don't. I don't think they think about their brand in that way. I think Jordan's just simply said, listened up until this point in a black man wasn't speaking to white to white people for endorsements just didn't happen. I mean, yes, there was, there were small endorsements. O J. J had hurts other than O J. Who who who, as alleged by Black

America like made himself white to do it. Um. But but yeah, but yeah, no, and so it was enough of a challenge to be the everyman as a black person in five um. And and so I don't think he wanted to screw that up. Um but I don't.

But I think there's appeal there, right because Jordan. If you wanted to kind of put Jordan in that context of becoming an everyman pitch man whose race was not integral to his overall appeal, that was also the case with back in that those days, Eddie Murphy, will Smith would later take that baton Bill Cosby, certainly in The Cosby Show, which was revolutionary in the sense that it portrayed a black American family as not that much different

than a white American family. Right, You're trying to appeal to everyone, the idea being that we, despite our differences of race or gender, ethnicity, whatever else, actually have a lot more in common than we do indifferent And I think what Lebron has done is sliced and diced a small segment of that population and said I'm gonna try to fulfill and be the every man for this small group. And I think that you may be right that it's

not a calculated decision. I tend to think there are tons of branding people that are sitting around with these guys trying to pitch them all day long on what they think makes sense. Um and uh. And certainly social media can complicate this because you have the ability to make decisions kind of instantaneously. Um. And The idea with social media, and I think you would agree, is that

authenticity matters more than anything. But if Lebron is going to sell this idea of a quality of everybody being on the same level of the importance of speaking truth to power. That's kind of his brand now, right. He certainly has basically just done what he said he would never do, which is shut up in dribble for money. Yeah, no, I I get it. I don't think I think, well, well that makes sense. I don't think that's going to cost him. I don't. I don't think that's going to

cost him. And the reason I said I thought Adam Silver had a win was, you know, I do think it was a win for for the business. And I'm not trying to say that it was the it was the right move. I just do think that, you know, I had thought that that China wanted to win, and I thought they'd lock him out of the arena. Known would show up. They didn't lock him out of the arena, and everyone showed up. Fox Sports Radio has the best

sports talk lineup in the nation. Catch all of our shows at Fox sports Radio dot com and within the I Heart Radio app. Search f s are to listen live. I think China saying you can come play, but you have to play by our rules, which means you can't talk to the media, which means your players say nothing. I think that's a win for China because it is I mean, really, if you break it down, what actually

happened there. China told the NBA and their teams and their biggest stars Lebron James, Adam Silver, Kyrie Irving, Anthony Davis shut up and dribble, or you have to leave our country and we're gonna money, and they did. I think in the process of playing the game and not walking away, I think Adam Silver felt like he had to do what was right for business, and I think

from a business standpoint that was right. I also think that you know, the people who I'm just I'm trying to look at this in a non emotional way, right like, just from the business standpoint, and it's hard to do that because of what China has done to its people. But um, I think that he did make the right move in being able to play the actual game despite the fact, as he said that it was not on

TV there. Um he did not leave. He did not leave because he basically was saying, we want to play for you, we want to be here, even if it was under their terms. Um, I think that I think it was the right move from a business standpoint, and I was told there were people who were trying to tell him, no, we should go, we should go, and he was absolutely insistent that they play the game. Yeah, I disagree. I think that I think they should have gone.

Here here's what I would say. You asked a good question, what's the impact when they come back to the United States, right, because not like they're going to stay in China for very long. Here's where I think this could be significant for them. I think certainly when they start to try to speak out again. Like let's say that I don't know, I don't know where the next All Star Game is

going to be, but let's say it could happen. It wouldn't be stunning, right if in the state of Georgia, Like you may know where the next NBA All Star Game is gonna be. I'm just gonna pick a state, Georgia. Let's say that Georgia has an abortion but like they have that abortion bill that Hollywood wasn't happy about, right or whatever you want to call it. And there was talk about, oh, we're gonna pull our pull our resources out of the state of Georgia because of the precedent

that they set with North Carolina. Anytime they're going into a state that has a controversial political legislation in front of it. Now people are gonna say, well, you pulled out of North Carolina. If they decide to get involved in that politically, the immediate response is going to be, dude, you played games in China. You can't complain about any existing state law anymore in the United States, no doubt, There is no doubt to me that that is accurate.

That is accurate that they that they have I agree with you, they have compromised their ability to really do anything from a political maybe social standpoint now that you can always bring up China. Not only that, like sorry, you can line up. But the question is, I don't think that costs them that much. That's that's where we differ. Yeah, I'm gonna get I'm gonna get to that in a seccause. I do think also all this conversation, every single team that wins, are you going to go to the White

House as long as Donald Trump is there? It's a discussion. If the Lakers win the title, let's say, and Lebron James tries to make a big statement by saying, I'm not gonna go see that bum in the White House, meaning Donald Trump, It's not going to have any residents anymore, because immediately, even for people who support Lebron James, they're gonna kind of have to nod their head and say, but dude, you were willing to go play in China,

and you shut up and you said nothing. And then you come back into America and you take advantage of freedom of speech and the fact that there's no real danger to your brand. You look like a hypocrite. Now you went to China, but you wouldn't go to the White House. Now, let me also say this, You know as well as I do, that the NBA Finals bring

in a huge audience that isn't otherwise committed to the NBA. Right, Like the die hard NBA fan I tend to agree with you is probably not going to be very impacted by this. Right, if you have season tickets, if you like a particular team, if you like a particular player, you're probably going to continue. But that's a relatively small

part of the American sporting audience. In fact, if you look at like the start of the NBA playoffs, four or five million people might watch a big NBA playoff game in the early rounds versus fourteen or fifteen million who watch in the NBA Finals sometime up to you know, I think what happens is those are the people the NBA has to be concerned about. And I do think there are a lot of part and that a lot of people in the middle part of the country. I live in Nashville. I think there are a lot of

people in the state of Tennessee who love basketball. I think there's a lot of people in the state of Indiana who love basketball, State of North Carolina, normal middle of the road people who are going to be very

turned off by what they saw the NBA doing in China. Now, if they get a great, unbelievable series and they get let's say, I don't know the two best teams that could possibly play, and I don't even know who those teams are right now, but they get Lebron in the finals, and they get Lebron against somebody from the East who's valid,

maybe the strength of that overall series could matter. But I do think they've lost people on the fringes who are otherwise gonna watch Netflix, or who are otherwise gonna watch Amazon Prime or the latest HBO show, and they'll say, screw it, I'm not gonna watch the n b A. I didn't like the way they responded when they were confronted with an issue in China. As an American, I don't find the league response correct. I do think that can impact at the fringes one or two, notch it,

I don't. I think I think they're h I think their risk is the Rockets because they happen to be good and uh and I do think that that China will as things have the potential to get better. I think they're going to continue to blame the Rockets and yeah, is not going to help. So I think they're you know, from a from a world standpoint, I don't think Americans are going to feel effected by this, even the casual

fans on the fringes. I think that their concern has to continue to be China, and if the Rockets are really good and they're in the finals, it will hurt them more. That's an interesting point that the Rockets are there that the China might not even show it. Yes, right, I mean now that could be a legitimate that could be a legitimate concern if the Rockets are in the NBA finals, and they could be if Russell, rest Brook and James Harden go, well, um, what did you think

about the NBA? I guess it ended up being the Houston Rockets cutting off questions now for players about China. Do you think that will become commonplace? You know, I think that, you know, with with Steve Kerr, I mean, do we believe I'm not sure. I believe that Steve Kerr doesn't have enough information. I do not believe that he's too smartly. Yes, I do believe. I do believe

that players don't have enough information. Um and and so I think they're legitimately worried about you know, what they're gonna say or you know, and so they cut them off, just like Clemson doesn't allow their football players to be on social media. The same thing. Um, So yeah, it's not it's not ideal, but I would rather than do that than the Steve curR answer of you know, I got to learn more, because I think they really do

need to learn more before saying something. Be sure to catch live editions about kick the Coverage with Clay Travis week days at six am Eastern three am Pacific. We're talking to Darren Ravelle. By the way, go follow him on Twitter at Darren Velle Love following him. We've known each other for a long time. We don't always agree, but that's one of the great things about living in America. We don't have to on every single subject. So, uh, it would not have this show in China. Would not

have this show in China. Yes, in America. Now though Philadelphi, you protesters chanting free Hong Kong escorted out of the arena. Wells Fargo in d C. Last night, protesters show up to support Hong Kong kicked out. Now they're Chinese teams

playing against American teams, So that's what's going on. How much does the NBA have to be concerned that a calculated attempt to make the NBA the focal point of all protests could occur among activists in the United States now because of the way the situation in China has played out. Concerned, They do have to be concerned absolutely that the NBA is just the right place to protest, because, as you know, protesters go where they can be most effective,

can be heard the most. No, they're gonna get kicked out. So listen. Having watched the video in Washington, Um, you know the security guards were definitely told about this. I'm not sure that that the Wizards or anyone was thinking about it. I think the NBA has been so busy in China that they haven't figured out, you know, how to put everything together. But the NBA has a group called Team Bow, which is essentially all the teams are

competing against each other, but they all share information. And it's better than any other major league out there. And I expect them to share information and and probably you know, just do the best they can. And and probably and I think that might mean allowing them, you know, because if once you allow them to hold signs, and there's not the video, the home video, you know, the cell phone of the guy getting his free Hong Kong signs uh uh taken away, then you make them powerless or

at least diminish. It's right, they need to conflict in order to create a lot of attention. But the downside is the downside is if these games are being streamed into Hong Kong, I mean into China and into Hong Kong and everywhere else, then the Chinese censors may well say we can't have Chinese games airing here, and less the n b A is going to be cutting out the signs before it arrives to us. But how do

you do that with a live sporting event. The reason why I bring it up is, you know this, they will edit all different sorts of movies, right like the Newest Avengers. They'll take out a couple of minutes that they decide offends Chinese viewership, but they have the opportunity to view that in advance with live sports. This seems like it could be a real challenge to the NBA's

China partnership. If people underneath the baseline are allowed to hold free Hong Kong signs up or sitting courtside, how in the world do you handle that when somebody goes to try to save a ball out of bounds and the camera naturally follows the player and there's four people in a row holding up free Hong Kong signs on the front row. Right, Well, well listen, let me in with this. Okay, this is I think this is the most complex situation we've ever had in sports that an

executive of league has ever had to deal with. Okay, it's when you look at Donald Sterling, there was one choice to make. Um. Yeah, Pete Roselle made the wrong decision with JFK when he got assassinated and going out and playing games. And that's but there are so many complexities to this. If Adam Silver sees the business, he's being heartless, gutless, unethical. Uh. If the players don't talk,

they're losing their authenticity. They don't you now don't trust them about caring about anything other than battles that they can always win. Um. So this is gonna be from a from a journalist standpoint, this is gonna be really really interesting to cover and from a human standpoint too. I mean, what happens is a player going to go out on a limb this year, an NBA player when things die down and it's not just basketball. Is a team going to try to say all questions are about

basketball this year? Okay, fine, then we're not going to talk about the team charity or what the guys doing off the court. So there's so many tentacles for this that uh, it's it is just going to be so fascinating to cover this, And I think her people are going to be challenged. Executives, team executives are going to be challenged. There is there is more to do off the court now than on the court. And um, we've

never seen anything like this. Last question for you, how does the NBA respond if a player writes free Hong Kong on their sneakers or a player wants to come out in a free Hong Kong T shirt like they allowed other UH players to make statements about police brutality and whatnot. What do they do? Does the NBA have to implement a policy here? Do you think somebody challenges the you know the basically right now, what appears to be almost an agreed upon silence on this issue. Will

someone challenge it? And if some what it on how much the NBA you know, wants this business? It really does? It depends on whether Adam Silver wanted the business, did not want a backdown, wanted to play, wanted to say that China will still play, will agree to your rules. But you know, obviously China is not going to want those signs or those those statements on shirts for pregame or anything like that for warm up um or on

a shoe that is played during the game. You know, so I think that they're gonna they'll revisit it, they'll figure it out, But I totally expect there to be some sort of formal policy that Adam Silver is not going to care if it gets out. They did they people didn't talk about the fact that, you know, the NBA clearly put a quote of silence on these players. But I think, you know, coming out, we're gonna we're

gonna see what's behind the curtain. And and if Adam Silver doesn't want people to find out, I don't think that's going to happen. But they're going to have to make some really clear rules. And if you find out that each player doesn't can't, can't have free Hong Kong on them, and people are going to assault the NBA again and say they're you know, they're for money and they're green the Chinese the Chinese government's rules because they just want to make money. And maybe Adam Silver is

gonna have to be okay with that. It is a challenge that the NBA has that the NFL, for one, doesn't have, the NHL doesn't have, and certainly Major League Baseball because the NBA has relied so much on creating basketball as a global brand. I'm with you. I think this is one of the most fascinating intersections of sports politics, culture. Uh and beyond that, we have ever seen, and I certainly didn't see when the weekend started that this was going to turn into the story that it has. Thank

you so much, Darren Ravelle for the time. I think people are really going to enjoy this. Uh and good luck to following the twist and turns as they continue to emerge. Clay, I had a lot of respect for you. Always great to come on with you. That's Darren Ravelle. I'm Clay Travis. Special addition of the Wins and Losses podcast discussing the wins and losses for the NBA as it is dealt with China all week long. Thanks for listening to us. If you enjoyed this one, you'll enjoy

wait a lot of others as well. Again, this has been Winston Watson. I'm Clay Travis, and thank you for listening. H