Clay Talks With Bruce Pearl

go to the final four? What does it feel like to almost go to the final four? What is the experience like to coach in the n C Double A tournament? And how long does it take when you either win or lose in the n C Double A tournament to get over the experience? If that makes sense to kind of start with contextually. Hey, Clay, if this is the first question, right, we're gonna need more than an hour because and I think the wins and lost this thing. When you bring Bruce Pearl on the show, you get

all that. You get the winnars and the losses, which I think it's really really good. Um. You it's it's completely different. First of all, the Final Four is the National Association of Basketball Coaches UM meetings. It's our annual meeting.

So when you're not playing in the Final Four, you're basically hob nobbing with your fellow wizards, uh, catching up on how bad the officiating was, all your long rule changes, UH, you know, eating too much um and uh and and and and you know, kind of celebrating your seasons, having meetings, you know, looking at you know, uh, the different apparel and the different equipment and all the different things that

out there, things that you would do at conventions. UM. If you're in it, UM, you're on a magical carpet ride, and you're wondering how in the world did a bum like me get to be on a stage like this and be playing for a national championship. And you you just stop and thank God and for the thanks for the blessing and and um, and you just hope that you are up to the task to help your team

win a national championship. And then when you don't get here, but you almost got here and maybe should have could have gotten here, UM, you replay every play, every call every preparation. I should have done this, I could have done that. If we did this, we could possibly be still playing. But I think when you do that, that's how you get better. Um, because you know, I'm not

gonna sit still. I'm gonna I'm gonna reload. I'm gonna rebuild and I'm going to grow as a coach because I want to I want to get back here and I want to win one. So I got so many things that I want to dive into, but I just want to start with your career. You mentioned how fortunate you feel to make it to a Final four, which you did with Auburn. You were close a lot of

times with Tennessee. But when you were coaching at Southern Indiana and I think you started off at Stanford and then you were at Iowa and you're grinding and you're working as hard as you can. Um, sometimes you don't ever I'm curious, when you're at Southern Indiana and you're a coach and you win a national championship there, did you ever think were there times where you thought, man, I'm never going to get that big job. Because the reasonly we talk wins and losses and why I love

the concept of this discussion. Coaches. There's so much focus and you know this on success. You have success, people want to hear about how amazing it is, what does it feel like? But I feel like you oftentimes learn more from the losses along the way. And I've talked about things that have gone in my career that I didn't anticipate. I'm sure you have had, like you said,

so many different ones. When you are coaching at Southern Indiana and you turn on the television and March Madness is on and you see a coach k or you see you Roy Williams, and you see guys who have been doing it for a long time. Did you feel I've told this story before, coach where I remember going to Triple A baseball uh and watching a game and this is probably fifteen years ago or so for me now maybe ten where I thought, Man, I'm in Triple A in my career. Right now, it seems so close

to get to the major leagues. I can see a path, but I don't know if I'll ever get that opportunity. Do you ever have those thoughts along the way as you climbed yourself up towards a guy who could coach in the n C Double A Tournament. Yes and no. Um, here's this is what comes to my mind when you're asking that question. When you and when you were in Nashville and you were doing sports talk radio in the afternoon, Um, you were trying to be the absolute best show in

that region, uh, for those three hours. And I don't think you were too terribly worried about anything other than being the best at what you were doing at that time. And one of the things me has helped make me successful every place I've been, I bought. I was all in. I wasn't leasing, I wasn't renting, I wasn't one foot in and one foot out looking for the next best thing.

And I think so many times people in life, especially in their early stages, it's okay to think big, it's okay to dream, but take advantage of what you got, what's right there in front of you, and do an amazing job and put yourself in position for other opportunities to present itself. So. Um, the reason why I won championships every place I've been is I treated it like it was my last job and like I wanted to

be at that place forever. And I truly did. And when I had to leave because it was time to leave Division two or go for mid major to Tennessee. Um, yeah, I got the Ziggie at Tennessee, so that really wasn't my choice. It was hard to leave. It was hard to get in the car and pull out and leave my wife and my kids and my family to go to that next best thing because I was bought and

I was all in. And I think so many people make the mistake of just not doing a great job with what they got and get guess what, as a result, they don't get to move on. They don't get to do what you've done, they don't get to do what I've done. Now, in answer to your crash, you directly, there was only one day a year, maybe two, when I ever thought about man. I remember when Tom Iso

and I were assistance. He was at Michigan State and I was at Iowa, and Tom's head coach at Michigan State, and I'm the head coach at Southern Indiana and and and the only time was on selection of Sunday or the first round the answer that tournament. When I was in Division two, I'd watch that day and I'd say, you know what I want to I do want to get there. I want to get there and and then But with the acception of that day, that was the only day it ever occurred to me to try to

be someplace else. When you were at Boston College, I think were even the mascot. I remember hearing that story. When did you decide, Hey, coaching basketball is something I might like to do. Uh? And when did you start to think, hey, this is going to be potentially a career I'll pursue. Well, it's a long story, but I'm trying to be brief. So I was a pretty good athlete in high school. Uh. I had a career ending knee injury in high school. Boston College was the best

athletic program in New England. I grew up in Boston, and so I went to BC and walked on the basketball team and got cut, just got a bad wheel. But I met Dr Tom davis Um. When I was in high school, I was coaching fifth graders, I was umpiron, I was refereeing, I was always coaching. I was honestly, never did I think I would ever wasn't trying to be a coach. I went to BC school management marketing, economics,

political science. I was gonna go out and get a real job my senior year after working for Tom Davis and every capacity possible, including as a manager, an assistant director of this or that. I hosted Patrick Ewing on his official visit as a as a as a member of the team. UM. Tom Davis called me and he said come over to the house. And I'm like, oh, Ship,

what I do wrong? Last time I had to come over the house, I got caught streaking across campus and he found out about it and he saved me to the students and I'm like, well, I haven't straight across campus in years. And sure enough, I'm driving to his house and oh my god, he's leaving to take a job and he's gonna ask me to go with him. And sure enough, Clay, that's what he did. I was a senior BC in March, graduating in June, and I went to Stanford to Tom Davis as an assistant coach.

And not one day that I worked for him because I wanted to be thought i'd be a basketball coach. Not at all. I just love BC. I love BC basketball. I loved what I was doing and and little did I know that my entire life. I've been coaching when I was playing, I was coaching when I was when I was playing, I was coaching little kids. So just something I always do, I always had done. That was

God's plan. I just didn't know it to the day to the day I walked in his house and the next day he and I were on plane to Stanford. All right, that's an amazing story, But I gotta go back. What were you streaking across campus four? Did you lose a bet? Was it part of it? How did that happen? That's that was back in the day. That's what we did. That's just what we did. We got naked. We ran across like I did it three times, once school cafeteria, middle school, once uh the prom and then and then

and then once at at BC. We actually we actually got in the car, uh and we went to the BC, went to we had there was a football game at Holy Cross out in Worcester, and UH me and a bunch of our buddies we got in the car with a lot to drink and uh locked our clothes in the trunk and drove to West naked and and just you know, just like who had the balls to actually get out of the car. You know, who was going to give him the key? You know? And and and and I don't remember a lot about that trip other

than thank god we didn't get arrested. In my parents never found out about it. You know what's funny, as I'll confess to this too. Uh Uh. When I was in college, I had a bet with one of my buddies who was a Baltimore Ravens fan. Um and uh and I was a Tennessee Titan fan growing up in Nashville. And uh we bet whoever was gonna win a playoff game. Titans had a playoff game against the Baltimore Ravens. They lost,

of course, because they always lose every playoff game. It feels like that matters just about and uh, I had to do a streak around. I went to George Washington in d C. So I had to streak around d C. And what it was funny about that, Um, First off, I didn't get arrested, but I think it would have been a federal offense because you're you're in the District of Columbia and uh and coach I remember um and

our freshman year dorm. Uh. The Secret Service raided the dorm because a kid was making fake I d s. And it was a federal offense because you're in the district of Columbia, right, so you know a lot of kids know about you know, you're seventeen, eighteen years old whatever. In a college campus, you want to be able to get buy a beer, go into a bar, and so fake I d are common. And this kid, uh in

the in down the hall one of the freshman dorms. Yeah, they the Secret Service raided his dorm because he was making these fake I d s. But so you go, it was that the w Admission's office is promoting very much coming wa get a federal offense. Yeah, no kidding. Uh, by the way, so was the culture. So for me, I grew up in Nashville, and there was a big culture shock for me going to GW because it was a very Northeastern school and I grew up in the

South and it was more brusque. I think it was great for me because people were tougher, harder edge, thicker skin. It was good for me at eighteen or nineteen years old to get used to that in a way maybe that it wouldn't have for my career. Was it a culture shock for you to go from Boston to Stanford, like to take that job, or because Palo Alto is amazing. But I have to think that Boston and Palo Alto were not that similar, at least for you as a kid growing up in the in the Northeast. Now it

was very different. Uh you know, growing up in Boston. Um, he was born in nineteen sixty. Um. I lived through the era of force bussing. Um saw it, saw real racism, saw real racial tension, real white on black fights. Uh, tremendous anti semitism. Um, that stuff all mattered. Um. And while there was some amazingly wonderful ethnic neighborhoods in Boston, the Italian North End, the Irish South Boston, the Jewish quarter of Mattapan, Dorchester, Blue Hill Avenue, Um, there was

a lot of uh, a lot of identity. Um that that wound up creating a lot of conflict. And as a coach and team builder, UM it bothered me to my core. Um the and when we play sports and we go to playground, it's shirts and skins. I don't give a rats ask what color you are? Can you rebound? Can you make a shot? UM, I don't care a you got a temple or church or if you don't, you know, can you guard somebody? And and and we play as kids and and and we're not we're not

identifying each other that way. And but our parents and our grandparents maybe are or were and and so I was so glad I grew up in Boston to see the greatness of the ethnicity, but the damage that it could do as it relates to the relationships. Then the second thing answered to your question, So I grew up at Kennedy Democrat. You know, um, you know the Kennedy family you up in in Boston at that time. I mean, it was just like, oh, my god, that you know

and and and and so much. They were heroes, absolutely heroes and and and and and why not? Um? And then as I drove across the country on my slash honeymoon and also my what, I drove out there to start working at Stanford. Um. And I was always a Boston Globe reader. Um. I began to pick up newspapers. Back in the day, the newspapers used to report things, and if you wanted an opinion, you picked up the back of the page and read the editorial and you

found out what the opinions were. And Clay, what I what I came to know then, back in extreme two, when I traveled across the country, is that the same story that would be written in the Braston Grobe would be a completely different story in the Indianapolis Star and the Davoine Register and the l A Times. It blew me away and I came to realize then the incredible power of the media and how the media could absolutely control, I say control, not influence the minds and the makeup

of the readers. And I and it's scared to crap out of me. And then of course I went out west and and you know, and and I see the good in everybody, Clay, I do. I see the good. I saw greatness Huthern, California, things that I loved, and most of it was the weather, um and um and yeah. And then through coaching, I was able to get into the Midwest and the South, and I've I've seen this great, great,

great country of ours and um. Yeah, but it's amazing where you live, um, and what you read or what you watch or listen to has not an awful lot to who you are and what you believe. Yeah, I'm curious, by the way, now that you mentioned it, what was it like to be a Jewish kid going to Boston College, a you know, Catholic Jesuit school. Did that feel incongruous to you or did you feel comfortable there despite obviously

a religious difference. I don't know what the vibe is like at Boston College or what it would have been like for you from seventy eight to eighty two in the time that you would have been there. Yep, Claire, I went to BC for a reason. I went to BC just for exactly that reason. Um. You know, there are stereotypes and there are perceptions. Um, there aren't a tremendous number of Jewish athletes out there that would be a stereotype. Could it be factually true, I don't know.

But the perception of a Jewish man would be, you know, you're gonna be a doctor, or you're gonna be a lawyer. You I mean in real estate, you're gonna be smart, You're gonna make money. Whatever that stereotype or perception you necessarily would be. It wouldn't necessarily be digging ditches or

being an athlete. Against all stereotypes, and I came to I came to understand that I could change that, that I could go to Boston College with with with a very large Catholic population, and they can see me pray, they could see me sweat, they could see me work, and if they want to put up if they wanted to fight me, because I had to fight a lot when I grew up for being Jewish. I didn't tell them I was Jewish. I told him I was Israeli. And then I asked them if they wanted to go,

like you want to dance, I'm Israeli. Let's dance with the idea being that Israeli people were thought to be tougher. Is that is that what you were thinking? Damn, damn right, damn straight and and yes, and and that's what I wore, you know, that was my armor, that was my courage, that was my I could look to Israeli leaders for strength,

and I did as a as a young Jewish boy. Um, and you know what all it all it was, Clay was getting to know each other, overcoming you know, the ignorance of never really having a Jewish friend, or never really having a black friend, or and and and and so my life has been through sports. And it started at a very young age, saying, dude, we are we are brothers Abraham, the father of all nations. We are brothers from another mother, But our father is the same.

He's the same guy that that that brings us together. I tell people all the time when as as I've never been more religiously comfortable anywhere in my life than in the South, nowhere among among evangelical Christians. Um. Because when you go to services there, they read from the Old Testament. They talk about Jesus being a rabbi and being a Jew. And when I hear that as a coach and as a as someone that whose whole life is about bringing people together, I'm saying, there it is

Jesus brings us together. He doesn't separate us. My whole life growing up Jewish, that was a separator. They believe Jesus was a son of God, we don't. They believe he was the Messiah, we don't. There's the line the sand, that's the bloodline. It's drawn, and if you live on this side or that side, we're willing to go to war over it. And I'm like, no, no, no, no, no, no. Their God, their number one guy. They're dude, the greatest

guy to ever walked the face of the earth. Jesus was Jewish, He celebrated Passover, he celebrated that he walked to Israel to Jerusalem how many times a year to celebrate the new year. Russia sean key, poor dude. That that connects us. Whether you don't think so or not, I do. It's right there in the history books. And then that's who I have sort of become. Can't we look at the things that we have more in common than the things that separate us. It's such a there's

so much to unpack there. Did you early on recognize because that's really what you have to do as a coach, right. The coach job is to bring people who may have tremendous differences into a cohesive whole. Much of what goes on in the country today is the opposite of that. Right, You appeal to a certain segment of the population in the hopes that you can motivate that group to support you going up against somebody else. Now that obviously your team in some level is going to have to go

up against other teams. But when you go to southern Indiana, you've been at Stanford. You've been at Iowa, You've been an assistant coach. How did you end up there? And what was the experience like to go from being an assistant coach to being a head coach? How much did you have to learn? And I'll give you an analogy here that I love UM that I think you'll appreciate um.

Back in the day, I remember hearing a great story from Norm Chow and I think it's a great metaphor larger universe for people as they engage in a new job. When he became a head coach for the first time, and I think it was at Hawaii, he was standing on the sideline clock was running down and he thought to himself, boy, somebody really should call a time out, you know. And then he thought, wait a minute, I'm a guy. I've got to call the time out. I'm

the head coach. He had come from being an offensive coordinator, where you watch somebody else have to make the call, right like you can be in the headset saying, boy, somebody should call a time out. But he was thinking to himself as he watched the clock, boy, somebody should call it time out. And then he thought immediately like early in his coaching career. You're the headman. You know he's still aligned from Harry Trueman. The buck stops with me.

I suddenly have to make that call. What is it like to go from an assistant as you work your way up, grinding no telling how many hours, to suddenly being the guy who has to call that time out, who has to make that decision. How did you find that transition? If you went to work every day as an assistant and felt like you had a very impactful role like Norm Chow had as a coordinator, um, then there's not as big a transition um to be in

the head coach. But if you went to work and just simply punts the clock and really didn't take it home at night and worry about it, and and we're sleepless because you couldn't get this done or that done, UM, or couldn't go back to sleep because your mind couldn't get off of what plays you should be calling, then

there's a huge jump, and then you're not ready for it. UM. And I think because I was an assistant and I tried to care uh, and I wore it on my sleeve, I wasn't impact in the games nearly as much as the head coach of the players. But but it mattered as much to me as it did to them. And so if it matters to you, I think that adjustment is a lot less the pressure UH, and the anxiety UH is greater. Um. You know, every time a head

coach gets fired. UM. Oftentimes the coach a little better off financially, sometimes a lot better off financially, But down goes his staff and their families, and the trade trainers and the strength coaches and the nutritionists and the statustans and all those other people who aren't as financially secure. And so I wear that I have responsibility, Clay, when I got fired at Tennessee because I lied to the n C double about a stinking barbecue. All right, all right?

And all I had to do was in my in my interview with the n C double, A I didn't have an attorney. Why I don't need an attorney. I didn't do anything wrong. They were gonna ask me a bunch of questions about some phone calls. We're fine, Who goes into one of those without an attorney? My dumbass. And then all of a sudden they pull out a picture and it's a picture of a couple of players that had a dinner at my house with a hundred other people. And if they were a year older, they

legally could be there. But they weren't a year older. They were a year younger, and we already had him committed, so we didn't get any advantage. But instead of just telling the truth, myself and my assistants didn't and panicked and went back to the office and called the n C double appy one. You know what, you guys gonna come back. We didn't tell you the truth. Um. But when I made that mistake, which I am accountable part,

I know, I minimized it right there. And I shouldn't have done that because what I did and and and not telling the truth um cost myself my job a reputation, but it also impacted those other families, Thank god. Steve Forbes is the head coach at Wake Forest University, and Jason Shay is assistant and um and I'm at Auburn and um and and and and and and and everything is good. I'm curious when you left, and I'm gonna come back to Tennessee because I do think that's a

fascinating part of your story. Uh. But when you left Southern Indiana? Is it valuable to learn? You said you had kind of thought of yourself as a head coach, maybe as an assistant coach. Is it valuable to learn without everybody watching you as a head coach? And what I mean by that is there are a lot of guys who get their first job, and when they get their first job, they're immediately going to be criticized and

analyzed in excruciating detail over being that head coach. How much did being and I'm sure there were media that covered you, but how much did being under the radar in some way as a head coach at Southern Indiana

make you a better coach? Was that a better pathway than maybe, in retrospect, having gotten a head job at an n C double, a major institution where people are paying attention on a day to day basis well bow Ryan, who coached at Wisconsin coach at Wisconsin Prattville in Division three in Wisconsin Milwaukee in Division one mid major before he ever got the Wisconsin job, And when Bo was at Prettville, I was an assistant in Iowa getting ready

to take the Southern Indiana job Division two BP. Let me tell you something it's the greatest thing I did. You know, Uh, I learned that a coach. I cut my teeth and understand this, Clay, you might only get one shot of in a head coach, and you better win because if you don't win, you might never get another shot. Guys get it, they lose, they go back

and be assistance. Maybe a few years later they'll forget about what they did when they got their chance, and maybe they got another chance, but most of them don't. So the key is, you better win, and you better take a job you think you've got a chance to win, because it's the only chance, your only chance to get you know, to get another job. Um. But Division two is really good, Division three is really good because guess what, there's great coaching at those at those places, sometimes almost

better coaching than Division one Division one. You've got good coaches, but guys that can recruit, guys that can run programs, but not necessarily all of being great coaches. Um. And I think that I think you know that that would be um obviously a a a great you know, training ground, uh, and a great preparation uh, not just not having as much attention. Um. Look, no matter what you do, you gotta win. You know, when you're winning. When you're winning,

they're worried you're gonna leave. And when you're loose, using their packing your backs. So coaches are always coming or going. You want a national championship, by the way, at Southern Indiana in your third year, and then you continue to coach there. I'm looking at right now, two and thirty one and forty six. How tough of a decision was it to make to go to D one and to take Wisconsin Milwaukee. I'm sitting I'm sitting on my porch with my wife and uh and and we are you know,

I got it going on in Southern Indiana. What are they paying you? By the way, what are you making at Southern Indiana at the time end of the day? Known really at the end of the day now I was. I started fifty six thousand UM back in three I took a pay cut to to to be an assistant coach. I was an assistant coach at Iowa. I took about a twenty five thousand dollar pay cut to move to Evansville,

Indiana to become a Division two head coach. Much to your wife to take that, Okay, it was it was Okay, it was I wanted to You know what, you gotta take chance, you gotta bet on yourself. And so I wanted to be a head coach and that was my but that was my chance. I left when I was thirty two years old. I was ready. Tom Davis said to me two things when I left him. If your teams look like our teams, that would be a good thing. Teach what you know how to teach. Don't leave me

and go learn a new system. This is a system, you know, make it your own, make it better, but but let this be your foundation, that Gary Williams Tom Davis system of coaching basketball. And a second piece of advice he gave me was be yourself. I could never be Dr Tom Davis. He was a completely different guy. He was way smarter than I am, he was more patient than I was. Whatever the case was. But it was great advice because that way I could always be myself.

I didn't have to try to be something else. I could be authentic, like it or not. Right, Claire, you know me, people like me, people hate me. It's win or lose, right, It's there's there's no vanilla when it comes to Bruce Pearl and it's not because I'm not I'm not trying to play to my base and I'm not trying to to to please the enemy. Um I know, I know who my family is, I know my friends are,

and I know who my opponents are. And um so no, and then when I when I when I then when I left Southern Indiana as a Division two coach, I had worked up my own TV show, my own radio show. I mean, I had it going on, and I got myself up to where I was making about a hundred eighty thousand dollars and to go to Division one Wisconsin, Milwaukee. I took the job for a hundred and fifteen thousand.

I went from a Division two job and and a and a in a very modest town to where I could barely afford the rent in Milwaukee, and built that

up after a few years and did better. And then find you four years later Milwaukee I beat Alabama, beat Boston College and then Tennessee, Kim Cohne, did you know your life had changed because a lot of those mid major coaches, I mean, by the way, I think that's an incredibly instructive I always like to ask people what their salaries were because a lot of people on the way up remember them, and I'm glad you told this story. And by the way, we're talking with Bruce Pearl, I'm

Clay Travis. This is Wins and Losses. Box Sports Radio has the best sports talk lineup in the nation. Catch all of our shows at Fox Sports Radio dot com and within the I Heart Radio app search f s R to listen live. I'm glad you told that story because a lot of people believe that in order to go to a new job, they have to make more money than they made at the old job. And what I try to tell people ask people ask for advice or questions, I say, don't think about what you're making,

think about what you can do. And I don't know if you're familiar with this concept, Coach, but I bet it makes a lot of sense to you. I'm big on the idea of the adjacent possible. And what I mean by the adjacent possible, if people haven't heard it before, is if you take a new job, do you have opportunities to do things that you didn't at your old job.

Easy example, you couldn't go to the Sweet sixteen at Southern Indiana, you could win the d two national championship there, but you couldn't go to the sweet sixteen, so you go from one eight to one fifteen. Many people would say, oh my god, that's a big step back. Same thing when you took fifty six k to go to Southern Indiana and you're taking less than you were making as an assistant at Iowa. People can look at that and say, oh,

my goodness, why would you go back? But sometimes you're going back because the future is so much more positive. Right Is that kind of the thought process that you were in when you made that decision to go to Wisconsin Milwaukee? Yeah, now that was it? And um, you know I I wanted to you know, you start off with those questions, only I did want to coach. In the answer double Division one championship, And I think the

biggest thing was simply this. I was comfortable at Iowa before I became a head coach, and becoming a head coach made me a lot more uncomfortable challenge me. I

was comfortable winning two one games and losing. And I had the best job in Division two at Southern Indiana in a great town, and I got uncomfortable taking a real bad job at these Wisconsin Milwaukee for no money in the league with Butler and and Detroit and U I C and Lola and and and you know, we beat Butler three out of four years, uh to win that league. And UM got uncomfortable. And then the other thing too, I think is very interesting, Clay, is this um.

People that know let's say Clay Travis, they may really only know you for the last year. The guy that took over for Rush, the guy that's a regular guest on Hannity, guy that this guy right, all right? And there are there are other people that knew you ten years prior. Then there are other people that knew you ten years prior to that. Here's my point. Everybody else sees you as a Clay Travis you are today. But you know what, you don't you see the guy that

you've known How old are you? You know the guy that for forty one years, they only know you for the last year. So for me, I'm sixty two. For forty five years, I was broke. I was an assistant, I was a Division two coach. I was nobody from nowhere. Yeah, we were winning, but I was so far off the radar. Now when I walk into a home or I walk around the final four or I'm on when it wins and losses right now with you, it's the Bruce Pearl from Auburn and Tennesseee that people know. But that's not

the guy that I still know. Like I still won't buy a whopper unless it's two for four dollars. I ain't paying, you know, the three sixty nine or three seventy nine for that one whop. I'm not because I was poor for forty five years and and and that's that's who I really am, and and and and people just don't know that when they bump into people that are, you know, sort of at a place right now where I'm at the top of my profession right now. But

I didn't. I didn't start here say I'm glad you brought that up, because that was gonna be my question. When you got the job at Tennessee. Suddenly you start making money, right and also the attention that comes with that. And I always like to ask people. And look, I did not have h substantial money either, like I was all would never order you mentioned the whopper. I would never order something that was anywhere near the most expensive

thing on the menu. Uh, you know, like, if you sit down in a restaurant, you're like, oh, man, I would know. Now it's a good thing to not have to worry about that. I was gonna ask you when you got to the point where and maybe you're still not there, which is also fascinating, where you could go

to a restaurant. Uh. And I'm not saying it's like the most expensive restaurant in the world, but you don't worry about what something costs you still in your mind, every time you sit down, you look at the prices on the on the menu, and and and are conscious of of of those four or five years when you didn't have the money to order whatever you wanted. Well, I do, I do a little bit because I remember, you know, I remember that, Yeah, we went out to

dinner on Sunday. Um, every other Sunday. I had everything I need as a kid. But literally going to a restaurant that was at every other Sunday. Uh, an ice cream cone. That was for a really good report card. Um. That wasn't just like let's go get ice cream, we're hungry. That was you know, hey, we had a we got a good report card, Let's go get an ice cream. Um. And that's how I grew up, and so I sort of still failed that way. I still go to the

clearance track. I walk into a store. You know, I'm right, I'm right over that. Come right over that clearance track. Man. You go to a pro shop right now. Man, you walk into pro shop and and you look at what they want for some of them shirts. Yeah, I just go over there, right Yeah, I know. I mean, look, I get made fun of all the time for the clothes that I end up wearing. I mean I buy stuff at Costco a lot. I mean right off the you know, like I get, I eat the samples and

uh and you know, like I'll buy. I mean, my kids make fun of me. I've got a lot of Kirkland brand stuff because I just I mean, one, I'm probably clueless. My wife is better at spending money on on clothes. Certainly, there's a lot of a lot of people out there listening not even along right now, and shoes for god knows, but I'm kind of clueless a lot of times on it, so uh, it doesn't register.

I mean when I went to g W there were a lot of kids with a lot of money, and they would always you know, somebody say, hey, did you see Uh you know what what what that guy is? Uh? You know what that guy's jeans cost or what that girl's purse. I I was so clueless on it. I didn't even notice. Like it just went right over my head. And I think there's a benefit to that, but it is. So you go to Tennessee. So what was it like?

And and this is where we met because I'm a long time universe My grandfather played for General neil in back in the day. People know who are listening? Uh? And and so I grew up going to games and that that was the big trip we would take growing up in Nashville. Get to go to watch a game in neil and Stadium. Uh. And I was there for Thompson Bowling when it opened back in God to go watch games there. That was as big as things got.

And you got to Tennessee, and Tennessee did not have an illustrious record, certainly basket all history wise, necessarily certainly not to go to six straight n C Double A tournaments like you did. What was that experience like to go from I'm sure there were fans at Wisconsin Milwaukee in southern Indiana and I'm sure you cultivated them well, but what was walking into a fan base that was as hungry for success as Tennessee like for you. Yeah, Clay, for the first time in my career, I was probably

a little bit over my head. Um. I was forty years old. Um, I had more talent. I had left more talent at the University of Wisconsin Milwaukee, then I inherited it Tennessee. Um. But I wasn't playing in the Horizon League. I was in the SEC um and Uh, it was almost overwhelming. But you know, we had some interesting pieces. Um. And we had a great point guarding C. J. Watson. We had a a that that really really was was needed, a fresh start. Chris Lofton had a great freshman year

for Buzz Peterson. Uh. And of course no Kentucky and Louisville. Um and um. You know, nobody had recruited Chris out of Maysville, Kentucky. And um, he he was gonna leave. Maybe told me you're losing your best player, he's leaving, And I said, well, I mean, okay, he's leaving. He's leaving. I'd love to meet with him one time, but I'll meet with him. So I met with the team. Um, and you know, of course, you know we need to

tighten things up. There wasn't a ton of discipline. You guys were missing class, they were late for things, so and so forth and so um. My very first night on the job. My next morning, the next morning, I get a report that like five kids miss class and and and a couple of kids were late. And believe or not, ironically, one of those kids was Chris Lofton,

who's never liked anything. He's the perfect kid, right. I called those seven kids up, and you know, so tomorrow morning, six am, Um, you're running and uh, you know, for a come on, coach, you know, I just I won't happen. I said, look, I told you guys the other night that you know that you're gonna start going to class and do these things. You've already gotten all your second third chances. You have to get there at six o'clock

tomorrow morning or pack your bags and leave. And uh, Chris Lofton showed up to that run, and so did those other six guys. And that's when he called home that night. He said, co he said, Mom and Dad, I'm staying at Tennessee. And that changed everything for you because boy, oh boy, was he fun to watch. Now you also, and this is something that I think is significant.

You've talked about how you use sports to make a difference beyond the world of sports, and Chris Lofton's story, and certainly the work you did with Pat Summit, who I know you had a tremendous relationship with. In fact, let me ask you, what was Pat Summit like for people out there who were not familiar with U T. S women's basketball coach. It's one of the most legendary coaches of all time. Did you know much about Pat Summit before you got to Tennessee. You guys hit it off.

But what was she like? Yeah, she was just a sweetheart. Um, Pat could have Pat would have been. Um, she would have been successful no matter what she did. If she was a university president, if she was president of country, if she was a United States senator, she was a men's baseball coach or a women's basketball coach, Pat Summit would have been would have been one of the best to ever do it. That's just how she was driven, how she was raised. Um. She was an incredible mom.

She was a great friend, she was loyal, and she created a brand Clay. How in the world could could the Tennessee volunteers have ever walked away from the Lady Balls.

I mean when we were the Valls at Tennessee, that was like nothing compared to being a Lady Ball, Like and then and then, and then and then these you know, these cancer culture folks that are on the other side of things, or these these women's activists, they looked at Lady This as somehow not being as good as oh, we gotta be the Lady Bulldogs, we gotta be the

Lady this or that. No, we're bulldogs. Well guess what at Tennessee, the Lady Valls had it going on and the Balls weren't ship compared to the Lady Balls, and they gave it up, had some It created the Yankees. She was the Dallas Cowboys, she was the brand for women's college basketball. She was the face and she owned it. And um, obviously Tennessee, you know, Tennessee loved her for it. And it was just tragic, you know that we lost her, um,

you know, at such a young time. And then as far as Chris Lofton is concerned, you know the story behind him out living cancer and of course we went and we beat Gan Outlive O U T l i v E. And that was Tennessee Basketball's fight against cancer. UM Chris was diagnosed with cancer. UH after we lost to Greg Odin Mike Conley in the n C Double A Tournament. A random drug test turned up the fact that he either had taken steroids, he was pregnant, or

he had to sticular cancer. We were already for pregnant, but that didn't happen. And UH and he fought at me won. He came back his senior year and UH and and and then after Chris graduated, we started out Live. We raised over two million dollars UH for the University of Tennessee Hospital Cancer Institution. And in fact, I'm very proud that the Chemo Hut Chemo and Radiation Hut on the fourth floor. I believe the cancer Institute is the Bruce and Brandy Pearl UH Chemo Hut if you will.

And UM I brought that campaign to Auburn and UH we do a UT outlive A U T l I V. And this year alone, we're gonna put two fifty dollars in the pockets of cancer patients in the state of Alabama who are having financial challenges while they're fighting their cancer. Because, as you know, cancer is something that it's not a one you know, it's not a one trip pony. You gotta you gotta do the radiation and the key moment

the surgery. It can take years. That takes you out of work, and that sometimes makes it really hard to pay the bills. How can people donate and be involved, by the way, because there's a lot of people listening right now, I mean, that's phenomenal work. They just I'm assuming they can type in on Google basically A U T A U T L I V E. Every penny we'll go to a person that is in financial need. Um, we even we even when I first got here, did it.

We did. We sent some money home to Tennessee. But right now we're working with twelve agencies and hospitals in Alabama, so outlived com and we'll get that money to a family, more than one family that that needs it. If you could go back and recoach any game that you had at Tennessee, I don't know if you go back and watch and I'm curious on that, like what game would you want? It gets Michigan State to go to the Final four. I was there for that one. I watched

that in person. What what would you what? What would you change? Oh, it's an easy fixed, clay, it's an easy fix. So we are Um, we are down. Um, I think we're down one. No, wait a second, we're tied. And it's late in the game, and Scotty Hopson. I call Scotty's number to get downhill. He gets downhill, he gets filed. Um and um, he makes the first one and we go up one. Yeah. I have Wayne Chisholm and Brian Williams on the free throw line and Casey mrs.

That's a big mistake. They're both big kids. I should have had them both back. You got a one point lead, take them off the line, make or miss. Get your defense established. Scotty misses the second one. Both Brian and Wayne go chasing down the rebound. Michigan State gets the rebound, they outlet it, they get down the floor and with about three seconds left, maybe they get the ball to the rim and JP Prince has called for a file.

Actually think he got it clean. If I just took Brian and Wayne off the line, Um, we would have defended that. We'd have beat Michigan State. We'd have gone to Indianapolis, where Peyton Manning was the quarterback for the Colts, and we would have played the final four. The first game he gets Butler the game Butler almost beat Duke of the buzzer that have been that had been Uh, it had been us um um in that final four. Um, and Peyton Manna would have been sitting on my bench

because obviously on the stadium. So how quickly after the game did you realize you had made that wrong decision to have both those guys on the free Was it like instantaneous in the locker room after no, the minute, the minute we filed, the minute we found, the minute those guys chased the ball down and like, oh, I need to get him off the line and get him back. Um. So you're that close to the final four. How long does it take to get over that game? UM? I'll

let you know what I do. Yeah, you know, I meant because you think you could have won a national championship potentially that year, right, you go to the final four, Butler but Duke. I thought Duke was the only team, uh, that we could It was like West Virginia Butler, Duke and Michigan state it would have been Auburn. We would have played West Virginia. I'd say we would. I think we would have beaten them, and then we would have

gotten Duke in the Champions of Game. Duke was better than us Duke Duke Duke won the enough chapiship that year. But I would you know, obviously would like to, you know, had a shot at him when you lose your job at Tennessee, And you mentioned it earlier over I think the n C double a shortly thereafter made that not even a penalty, right, Um, in terms of having like a seventeen year old, I think it was a junior

over to the barbecue, as you mentioned. Uh, so you get in trouble, not for really the infraction, but lying about it. Do you still should Tennessee have stood behind you? You've seen a lot of coaches that have had a lot of different issues, UH that universities have stayed behind stood behind them. That may have changed somewhat, Uh in the last you know, seven or eight years, maybe more so than back then. But do you wish Tennessee had stood behind you and supported you? Uh? And and if

they had, I'm assuming you still think you'd be at Tennessee. Yeah, I I think. Look, a couple of things happened at that time. Um. You know, first of all, you know, should Tennessee have fired Philip Falmer a year after he went to the SEC championship game and almost beat l Sho, who won the national championship? Uh? And the answer is yes, Um.

Eight games later they fire him, um and and and the reason why they fired Philip Falmer was because he beat everybody except he had a hard time beating this guy that just got the job at Florida named Urban Meyer. And um, uh you know, and the guy who just got the Alabama job. Yeah. Well, little did Tennessee realize at that time that nobody had beaten Urban Meyer would beat Urban Myers Saban. But they didn't know that at

the time, and they should have. He owned Georgia and South Carolina and Vanderbilt and Kentucky and everybody else he played and um nine wins and the outback ball wasn't enough, all right, and and and and obviously they're still they're still cursed for it. And then you know, from my standpoint, the Tennessee fans were wonderful, Clay, absolutely wonderful. And I apologize to them for making a mistake. UM, But the leadership at Tennessee UM at that time, the board of trustees,

the president, UM didn't stand behind me. I think Mike Campelton R. A. D. Tried but he wasn't able to. And UM No, it was it was, it was a it was. It was very hurtful. UM. I still love Tennessee because I love the fans there, I love the people there. UM. And and I gotta tell you, I'm glad that I am at Auburn. UM again got at a plan and I'm not saying it was his plan for me to make a mistake like that, but obviously saved me, offered me grace, and I wound up going

to Auburn. And for me, this has been the great This has been the greatest fit for me. UM. Auburn is a fantastic place. And by the way, if your kids don't go to Tennessee, they should, really they should really look seriously. Yeah, knowing who you are and knowing what you're all about being an Auburn man or an Auburn woman, loving God loving country, um Man, Auburn is a We need more places like Auburn in our country. Our kids, and you know, country would be even better

off if we had more places like Auburn. It's it's interesting you say that, And I'm gonna come back to in a sec how much beating up of yourself. You and I got to know each other. You would come on and break down, uh college basketball for us back when we're doing the three h L Show in Nashville, and you stayed in Knoxville and you took a job outside of basketball and you're there close to the University of Tennessee. You had to sit out I think was

it three years? Uh, where you're not allowed to coach. How much did you beat yourself up over that experience? How tough was it to stay in Knoxville and be so close to a job that you would obviously loved while not knowing necessarily if you were going to get that next job. And I'll ask you about how you came to pick Auburn and how that came together. But how tough was those were those three years for you? Well? Uh, they were tough. Um but but but but there's there

was one very simple reason behind it. I looked at one of the coaching job Donnie Nelson offered me the Dallas Legends job in the G League. UM, and I almost took it. And I always appreciate coach Carlisle um and and and uh those guys for giving me that opportunity. Um, but I was a divorce dad, and I had an eighth grader and a and a young one in high school. And I just couldn't leave Knoxville for that reason. I

just I couldn't leave them. I couldn't take them with me, and I I didn't want to Um, you know, I didn't want to leave town, um, having just recently been divorced, And so I had to stay in Knoxville. And Bill said pon the HD Hackney company gave me an opportunity. You see those trucks running all over all over the place with that big H delivered stuff in the convenience stores that along with XM Radio, along with three h

L along with ESPN. I worked about six jobs to try to you know, pay all the mortgages and pay all the things I had to pay, um and um. And then when Tennesse when Auburn came knocking. It really was partly a recommendation that Mike Hamilton made to his friend J Jacobs who was the a d then and said you need to hire him. This guy is good. Character wasn't an issue. Um, it don't for better worse. It's our culture and our character our greatest strength and um.

But the coaching staff that I put together, the men I have around our kids, UM and um and so everything everything's worked out really really well for us, club blessed. Remember when you took when you took the Auburn job, Remember us having a conversation. This is I don't think you'd be upset about this now because you've have had tremendous success. But you said, hey, I did it at UH Southern Indiana, I did it at Wisconsin Milwaukee, I did it at Tennessee. I think I can do it

again at Auburn, but I'm not sure. Uh. And I remember that that conversation, just because you're taking a new job, and that first couple of years at Auburn, I'm looking right now. You had losing records, You finished thirteenth in the SEC. You had everything rolling at Tennessee, the recruiting, you went to the Elite eight. You're a play away

from the final four. How much self doubt did you have early in your tenure at Auburn because I imagine finishing what four and fourteen and five and thirteen, those first two years had to be humbling for you. Um, you know what, You're absolutely accurate with every single word you used except the last one. Um. I am a very humble person. UM. I know I don't act like it, but I really am. And I'm not paying myself. I'm not paying myself a compliment because I don't think a

ton of myself. I don't, um. And but you're right. I had an immense self doubt. Like I went to my I went to Jane said, Jay, listen, I've been here two years. Um, I was out three. Um, what I'm doing right now is not working, not cutting edge. Um. When I went to when I was at Milwaukee and my days at Tennessee what we were doing. It was in fuego. I mean, people wanted to know what we

were doing and how we were doing it. We were on top or you know, or at least you know for an up and comer, for not being a blue blood. And absolutely I had tremendous self doubt. Um, and even thought about, you know, man, I might I might have lost my touch, right maybe and UM, I wound up, you know, recruiting a couple of good players, you know, making a couple of adjustments on my staff, studying a little bit, and UH got it back. And for the

last five years, nobody's won more. We won three championships in five years at Auburn. We won more games than anybody in the league in the last five years. We've beaten Kentucky seven years in a row. Now, we haven't beat him every time we played them, probably been him half of time. But we've I mean, we've done the things that you need to do, UM to be considered one of the best programs in the SEC. I meant to ask you another question back, because I do think

it it factors in here. This is wins and losses. I'm Clay Travis Bruce Pearl. Fox Sports Radio has the best sports talk lineup in the nation. Catch all of our shows at Fox sports Radio dot com and within the I Heart Radio app search f s R to listen live. You mentioned having young kids. How do you balance being a dad with having and this could be true for being a mom too, with having a highly

intense and pressurized job that is so incredibly competitive. You seem to have, based on experience, a really good relationship by and large with your kids. How do you balance that? What advice would you give now you said your sixty two, your kids are grown. Uh, there's a lot of people who are listening to this right now that have young kids and they're trying to be successful professionally but also

get that work life balance. Do you have any words of wisdom for people out there who were trying to balance all of this? Yeah? You know. UM, we go to work every single day basically so that our kids will have it better than we had it. Um, and sometimes that takes us away from the precious ones were trying to take care of. Um. Honesty is the best policy. My kids always knew where I was, and there were

trade offs. Um. I didn't have any fishing trips or ski trips, not many of golf vacations with the boys. And I'm not complaining. Um, I worked and I hung out with my family. Now did I enjoy working? Did I go on a golf trip every now and then that was work related? Um? Yeah, But my kids always knew where I was and when I was away from them and I had to miss something, um, we talked about it. And I tried to get them to understand. Now,

I didn't miss the parent teacher conference. I made as many games and plays and things that I possibly could make that took a priority, and my kids knew it. And then the other thing I did. And my dad did this with me too. My dad took me. He worked every Saturday, but he took me to the office on Saturday. I worked out in the warehouse while he worked in the office on Saturdays, and it was a way for us to come and go together. Because he worked six days a week, he could have gone in

the office on Saturday and not taking me. I always took my kids on the bus. I always brought when I went on the road. I always took one of them with me. I had one when when I was in southern Indiana. Now when I got to Tennessee, not quite as much because of the way we traveled. Um, But you know what, do the best. You can make sure your kids know where you are and and if you can't be there, make sure they at least understand why and and provide them with an explanation. What would

you mentioned Auburn being such a fantastic place? What makes Auburn such a fantastic place in your mind. What do you wish the rest of the country was like like Auburn is. What does Auburn do well? What would the country? What could the country learn from Auburn and your experience? Well, you know what. First of all, um, as you know, Clay, I am conservative. Um. I grew up at Kenny Kennedy Democrat. Um.

You know I'm I'm much more Republican leaning. Um. And and I love our country and I'm a patriot, and I believe in values, and I believe the sanctity of life. Uh. I believe in God. Um. I pray before meals um and um. And I try to live a life where I'm doing the things that would give God a chance uh to to bless before it. Um. How you treat people, Um, you know, the kindness that you show, the generosity of the show. Um you know, UM, that's kind of what

Auburn is. UM. If you're interested in a different girl every night, or going out to a different bar all the time, and if you want to run fast, then you need then you need to go somewhere else because you're not gonna fit in at Auburn. UM. Our student athletes are students. They're they're grinding, they're training, and they're working. We're having fun while we're doing it. But you know, sometimes fun is going to watch Sunny Lee in a

gymnastics meet, Ravan, going out to the bar and getting trashed. Now, back when I went to Boston College, it was different, and it was sort of different then. You know, it was like animal Farm. That was what college was. It was animal Farm. And you remember that movie right was not Animal Animal House, Animal House, Animal House, Animals, the book Animals, and and that was what I grew up thinking college was supposed to be. So how drunk could I get? You know, like I said, how many times

could I streak? You know? That's what That's what That's what. That's what I thought it was supposed to be. That is exactly opposite of what Auburn is. And um, you know,

we're gonna stand at attention for the national anthem. We're gonna point our right hand over our heart and a left hand behind our back, and I'm gonna stay at attention until the flag leaves the floor and and um, you know what, and if you don't like it, get over it, and if and if and if and if you If you want to do something else, that's fine, it's up to you, but do not criticize me for

doing what I feel is right. And that's one of the things that we lost to like like, um, you know, in my family, UM, I've got a couple of children that are way left to center, all right. I got a couple of children in a way right a center. And I'm actually kind of proud that that we're a mixed family, if you will. But we're gonna sit down over dinner and we're gonna have a conversation and we're

not going to get elevated. And I'm I may not agree with what you think about what's going on in Ukraine right now, or what's going on in Israel right now, or what's going on at the border right now, or what's going on in Washington right now, but I'm gonna respect your opinion and I'm gonna listen to it, and I'm not gonna find eight ways to send it to to tell you that you're wrong, even though guess what,

I don't agree with you. Um. The difference at Auburn is we should be able to share our thoughts in exchange of ideas, and at so many other places, particularly places that are more liberal. Uh. It's their way of the highway. And if you don't agree with them somehow, you're either a racist, or are part of the basketball of deplorables um or or something that just is um not very complementary. By the way, I agree with almost every everything you said. It's not going to be a surprise.

You and I see eye to eye on a lot of things. Let me ask you this. I love Charles Barkley. Um. He obviously is Auburn basketball. Prior to you, a lot of people when they heard Auburn basketball would think Charles Barkley. What is Charles Barkley like? What does he mean for Auburn basketball and the university as a whole? Charles Barkley

is like this. When you are at a party and it's a crop room, there are people in that room, they're talking to you, and they're actually looking over your shoulder trying to see who the next best guest is that talking. When Charles Barkley is talking to you, he's looking at you, he's engaged with you, and most likely you're either the janitor, the bartender, the server and hold on a second. Michael Michael Jordan's, I'll be right with you.

Hold on one second, like he'll finish his conversation with you before he gets to me or Michael Jordan's or anybody else in the room. He is genuine, He is kind. He feels grateful to Auburn for having stayed with him at a time when he was young and uh, you know, got into some trouble and recognizes that Sonny Smith as his coach, Auburn as his university coach, Pat Die as its leader, helped get him from where he was to where he went. And um, you know, Charles Barkley is

a great American. He does. And I've been fortunate to get go out to dinner with him a couple of times. Uh, we overlap. I don't know him perfectly well, but he gave I was out to dinner with him once, and I think you'll appreciate this advice. One of the best piece of advice I've ever gotten, Uh, he said, Clay. Uh, this was early in my radio career because the guys who worked down at Jocks, I think you probably know Lance Taylor, Ryan Jim Dunaway, Ryan Brown. They had a

great show. Um, we were out to dinner with them, and they have Barkley on all the time because Lane has been buddies with Barkley for twenty some odd years. We're out at dinner, Lance, me and Barkley um in Birmingham and uh and Barkley said, Clay, you know, because we had just done the show. He said, I got great advice for you in media. He said, if you and I think this is great advice for life, but it certainly works in an industry where you might be

in public eye sometimes. He said, if you worry about the people who don't like you, then the people who do like you won't like you anymore. And I just thought that was so incredibly profound. This is before social media had taken off. This is probably, you know, two thousand six, two thousand seven. We're having this conversation and it makes more sense today than it even did back then. But I use that with my own kids, right, because you're someone who's comfortable in your own skin. We've all

seen your shirtless. For God's sakes, I liked I am very I am very comfortable in my own skin. For better or worse. I'm gonna tell you what I think, But if you disagree with me, that doesn't mean to your point on your your family, Like if somebody he says, hey, you're you're crazy, that's an idiot. I had a opinion. I'll laugh with you, you know, a click of beer glass. We can agree to disagree. It's not going to change the way that I feel about you on a one

on one basis, and you're that way. And I think Barkley kind of distilled it right. I mean, that is a perfect advice, especially in the social media age, when everybody's terrified no matter what you do for a living, you're afraid of what you might say on Facebook. It's gonna cost you your job you say something on Twitter

or Instagram or wherever it might be. And that leads me into this question recruiting and talking with kids, and you mentioned, you know, like every time your phone goes off, I'm sure you've looked down if it's two am and you're like, oh, you know, what might have gone on. You're sixty two years old. Our kids different now than they were when you started coaching. If so, how do they need coaching more now than they did when you were younger? How would you assess the trajectory of the

country through the kids that you coach in your experience. Well, that's a great question. I think that. Um, I would say the kids have changed a little bit recently, and I'll tell you why in a second. But my general thought to you is, no, they haven't changed that much. They still want discipline, they still want to be held accountable, they still want to be coached, they still want to

be pushed, they still want to be great. And I think that we think because of all of the things that go on, and including a lot of culture and the transfer portals. And if it's not if my a, if my little league, this little league team isn't playing, isn't pitching me, I'm gonna go. My parents are gonna get me across town. I'm gonna go play for the other little league team. And rather than you know, we

we we flee rather than fight. Um. You know so often, UM, but I think generally, and by the way, it ain't the kids fault. It's our fault. We haven't taught him, and and and we have not been great examples, and so quit blaming the kids when they screw up. It's it's our responsibility to coach them and teach them, and and and to be the adults you know in the room.

The greatest challenge right now we have, Clay, is the social media is the platform, um, and the kids are spending an enormous amount of time on it and on their phones and uh and and the time they're spending doing that, they're spending a lot less time either going

outside and playing and learning how to interact with one another. Uh. Or you know the days of you know, just going on a playground and just playing some ball, or you know, going out there and throwing a couple of sweatshirts as first, second, and third base and playing stickball versus you have an organized umpires and selling concessions and travel ball and all that. I know things have changed, but I'm old school, so we lost some of that. But if the kids have changed,

it's not the kids fault. If I asked you the question about Tennessee, I want to ask you the question about Auburn. If you could go back and recoach any game at Auburn, which game would it be? And why is there one that immediately comes to mind? Um, you know it doesn't come right to mind. I don't know that I could replay the Virginia game again and I think we did the things that you're supposed to do down the stretch to win that game. Um. Obviously, was

Virginia better than you? Is it easier if you lose to a team like you said, Duke was better than Tennessee the year you might have been able to go to the Final four? Do you think that uv a team was better if you played a hundred times, would they beat you more than they than you beat them? I think we I think it'd be pretty down close. I really do. UM. And And obviously at the end of the Virginia game, we had a couple of really

tough calls. UM that that that prevented us from getting that call wind up being factors at the at the end, um UM. Maybe the last game that I that I coached against Miami, UM, we were the better team, we got upset by Amy. UM And I would have done a number of different things there, um differently, And so probably the last game I coached would would be the

game that I would coach differently. What um, If you win and that you've been to the final four, how much different is your life if you win a national championship or you don't win a national championship in terms of the way you feel about yourself. Great question. Nothing, Um, wouldn't affect me at all, but the perception would be enormously different. Um, you get to the final four, you win a national championship, your perception is different. What's your

perception of Bruce Pearl. Your perception of Bruce Pearl is what I did at Tennessee. You know six and tournaments, you know a couple of Sweet six teams and the lead eight one game in the final four. What's your perception me at Auburn. It's it's based in these championships, and and and and things along those lines, Um, and and and the more you do, the more your perception changes it. It really doesn't. It would not change my perception of me. Um. I'm just I don't. I don't

see myself UM in that same light. UM, others perhaps do. UM And UM, I'm just trying to. I'm trying to win the next one. I'm just trying to. I'm just gonna try to win the next one. And you know, when I when I when I retire and I look back on it, UM, then all of a sudden, I think those championships will matter. UM more than they actually do right now and then and then then the biggest question would be, you know, how did I make How did I impact my coaches and their families lives? How

do they impact my community? Did I make my community better? Did I that was I generous? Did I help people that were in need? Um? You know, did I help my student athletes become men and become better fathers? And um? And then did I utilize my platform, clay to try to make a difference in the world. And you know that's you know, one of the things that is I get myself in some trouble sometimes is I'm very active in social media about things involving Israel in the Middle East.

And um, I get involved and on the political side of things because as a Jewish Man, when we said never again, there are limitations to what I can do to ensure that will be never again. But if there are atrocities taking place in China or in Ukraine or in the Middle East, that I cannot be silent, even if I'm perceived to be on the wrong side of an issue, or if my fans or people that you know in basketball say, look, you need to really worry about coaching. Uh. If you were so worried about that,

you're beat in Miami. Instead, you're worried about the wrong stuff. It's not that I'm worried about it. It's just that for the people that are worried about it that don't have my platform, my voice, can give them hope that there are people talking about it. There are people that

are pointing it out. There are people that are calling it out and trying to trying to prevent some of these things from you know, from happening from from from our country getting into a awful treaty, whether I ran, and putting billions of dollars into the pockets of a country and a leadership that is the sworn enemy of the State of israel I, just as as as as an ally of of of of the United States and

one of its greatest allies. I don't even see how that's possible unless you really really believe that the people that you're sitting across the table from are telling you the truth that they really don't care about ballistic missiles are getting a nuclear weapon, or they really don't care about trying to find a way to sell their oil uh through the Russians and having that be Uh. An absolutely back door for the for the Russians to be able to avoid all these economic sanctions that we're putting

on them and Iran. And oh, we're letting the Russians and the Chinese negotiate a nuclear treaty with Iran that's going to affect all of our Abraham Accord allies and Israel. We're we're doing it. Oh. And by the way, we're not allowed in the room like in other words, we go to Vienna, like the American delegation, we sit in another room. You are, so you are so well informed on this, by the way, and and I'm nodding along as you're speaking about all this, uh, and it makes

me want to unpack this a little bit. So let me start here. We did you go to Israel for the first time? We talked early on in this conversation. I'm Clay Travis, He's Bruce Pearl. This is wins and Losses. We talked about growing up for you, uh, in Boston and going to Boston College, being Jewish, experiencing what that was like, the divisions of Boston, and you're a kid

growing up bringing people together through sports. When did you go to Israel for the first time, and I know you have, uh, you have coached in athletics in Israel. Uh what has that experience been like for you in terms of formulating and defining you as an adult man class? I'm grateful that you asked that question. The first time I went to Israel was in nineteen sixty seven when I was in Boston, sitting in the den of my grandfather as seven years old, and he's watching TV. So

I'm actually not in Israel. I'm actually in Boston. My grandfather was a plumber. It's a strong man, a tough man, and uh, a quiet man, a man that kept kosher, that went to services on a regular basis. Um, uh my idol, and uh he was weeping watching the television set. In nineteen seven, Papa went to bed really early because he got up really early every every night. So after supper, Papa would wash up, and very shortly after supper and

the sun went down, Papa would go to bed. But but this night he was up late and he was crying. In a seven year old I walked up to Pappa, said, Pappa was wrong, what are you crying about? He papped me on his lap and we watched the news, and it was it was the Sixth Day War, and he

told me about Israel. He told me how important the state of Israel was, and that if Israel had existed when his family was fleeing Ukraine, that if Israel was was existed back in the twenties and the thirties and the forties, the six million Jews that were murdered in the Holocaust may have only been a million because they would have had a place to go and be safe. Many tried to get into this country. My puppet emigrated to this country in nineteen thirty two. He was fourteen

years old. He became a citizen when he when was when he when he was in his mid thirties, and he just was afraid to go to sleep because he was afraid that when he woke up, Israel would not be there. Because he explained how Israel's was surrounded by enemies that wanted her. They wanted Jerusalem. They wanted it from the river to the sea, and they wanted it from sixty seven. They wanted it in seventy three during the Keypool War. And you know what, some of them

still want it now and they can't have it. When did you go to Israel for the first time physically. Yep. I'm almost embarrassed to say that it wasn't until two thousand and nine. Um, why did it take you that long? And why did you go for the first time? Because my plan was to either join the army here in this country, uh and serve for a year, or actually go to Israel and serve for one year. That was

my plan. And then as I as I mentioned to you before, I'm a twenty one year old senior Boston College still with the plan of either going to United States military or the Israeli married. I didn't hadn't decide which one when Dr Tom Davis offered me a job to go within the Stanford in March of my senior year, and so that thought of serving either my country or Israel um went away and I never went back. I went back in two thousand and nine where I coached

in the Maccabi Games. I coached my son Stephen, and Uh we won the gold medal. We beat Israel and overtime in the gold medal game. And thank god, it's really hard to beat Israel and Israel, but we managed to do it gime of basketball and m and since that time. I've been Israel a couple more times. I'm going again in May, and I'm going again in August

with my team. I'm bringing the Auburn basketball team to Israel because I want my players to see the diversity, to see that it is not an apartheid state, to see that about half the population in the state of Israel are almost as dark as they are, and I want them to unlearn some of the lies that they've been told. Um and then maybe someday they want to come back there and play basketball, because, other than the NBA, one of the one of the one of the best

places to play professionally is in Israel. What was the experience like to win with your son in two thousand nine in Israel? Danny Grunfeld was on the team Ernie's sun Um, my son Stephen. We had some great friends that were on that team. Todd Gold then, who was a new head coach at Florida, played for me on that team. Todd was on assistance. Yeah, he was one of his assistance at Auburn when I got the Auburn job.

Todd is a very very dear friend. Is gonna do a great job for the gate is um and um man. It was just an honor to where the USA, you know, and it was honored for me to take those young men over there and learn more about their roots. And you know. And and again, I have a love from my country, the United States of America that that that is different than my love for Israel. I'm grateful for Israel. UM. I owe everything to this country. I would die for

this country. UM. I probably would give my life for Israel as well. UM. But I want I think the way you get to feel that way is by going over there and experiencing it. And unfortunately, Clay, just like so many things that you hear and read, it's it's people want to know the truth about it, and it's so very, very difficult to get the truth. I'll just put it to you in this in this context, there

are nine million people in Israel. There are six million Jewish people, and there are three million Arabs living in the State of Israel. About two million of those Arabs are you are Israeli citizens, and most of them live far better quality of life than the Arabs that live in the surrounding countries in Egypt or Lebanon or Syria or Iraq or Iran or whatever. There might be a duct in Jews if any they're not allowed. Jews are allowed. I want to go. I've never been to Israel. I mean,

I love to travel. I would love to experience. It's it's on my list to go. Uh, you know I was raised. Yeah, guess what next? Next? May? Next? May. I don't know if you know Governor Billy very well, I do. I do. He's an auburn guy. I'm sure that's how you do. Yeah, and he's an awesome guy and um, you know, depending on how things are in his state, because he would never leave unless things were in a great spot. Billy wants to come to Israel with us as well. You did you need to come

on that trip? I would. I'd love to so love uh to walk where Jesus walked and uh with you and your your family and uh, that'd be such a cool trip. That's May of May have twenty three, Yes, sir, I'm in. I'm gonna. I'm gonna. I'm literally writing it down right now, May have twenty three. I want to make that trip. I'd love to go. I've never been. Um, it's a place that I've always wanted to go and you obviously would be able to help show us around

a couple more questions. First of all, I appreciate it all the time. I know you're at the Final four. There's a ton of things going on down there. I'm Clay Travis, He's Bruce Pearl. It's wins and losses. Um, you mentioned coaching in in uh in Israel with Stephen who's on your coaching staff. Now, great guy, uh maybe one day will be a head coach himself. What advice would you give everybody out there? I coach little league baseball, a little league basketball. I've done it all with my boys.

How do you coach your son? What advice would you give for people out there who I met? A lot of them are listening right now. How do you coach your son? How? How did you find it? Not only you know, like I'm sure you uh, you know in in college right where he's on the team with you at the University of Tennessee. And how is it more difficult to coach or have UH coach your son when he's a member of the team, or more difficult to be the head coach and have your son as an

assistant coach on the staff. I'm curious what the dynamics of that are. Like, Yeah, well it is hard to coach your son. Uh it is way easier to let somebody else coach him. Uh, it is hard. Um. You know, I I love to tell this story, but you know, UM, whether it was when he was a kid or not, you know, Stephen always threw his bat, he filed out when we lost or or or or or or or he cried when we when he filed out or when

we lost. UM. And I always tell parents I'd rather teach him, I'd rather try and teach him to care a little less than the care. Um. The kids that did know whether we what are lost and what the score was, and I didn't know whether to be happy or sad, win or lose. Those kids I had a real problem with. UM. I didn't have a problem with a kid that threw his bad or cried we got beat. I could we could manage that, We could channel that

that anger. UM. The advice would be this, just trying not to teach your treat your kid worse than you treat the other kids. Try and be fair because although some will criticize you for favoring your kid, in reality, we don't We actually are harder on our kid. He should be playing shortstoppable, playing at second base. He should be and third. We bat him sixth um, because we're afraid that, you know, maybe somebody would accuse us of favoritism. Um,

and so trying not to be harder on him. I remember one time, after Stephen didn't play very well, I got in the car. I said, who do you want to talk to your dad or your coach? He said, I don't want to talk to either one of you. That is fantastic. Um. What about coaching with your son compared to coaching your son now he's on your staff?

How is that different? Easier? It's a lot easier, Um, you know, and and and and and and look, no matter what your life's greatest accomplishments are, they are the greatest accomplishments because of not what you achieved, but who you achieved them with. And so that's why, you know, weddings are certain celebrations of life, births of old um. You know, things winning a championship, when you do it with your coaches and your players and your wife and

your kids, they just it's so much more meaningful. And so it is awesome coaching with Stephen, and he is. He's ready to be a great head coach someday. And I'm open he's gonna be the next coach at Auburn. If you how many more year sixty two? I'm sure you're looking out now into the future. How many more years do you think you can coach at a high level? You mentioned when you came back to Auburn you thought for a couple of years. Hey, I'm not sure if I'm going to get the change, get the turn. You

obviously have things rolling in terms of sec success. How many years do you see into the future that you think you can coach at a high level? Clay, as long as I can stay healthy and I can continue to compete, uh, and and give our kids a chance to be successful. Um, I'll coach, um, but I'm not gonna be one of those guys that's coaching um. UM. You know in my seventies, for example, no chance. Um. So I've got an eight year contract. I'm sixty two. UM, I don't know that. I don't know that I make

it all eight um. But I don't worry about Just take it one year at a time, take it one day at a time. But I can tell you in my crystal ball that I have to make up for what I lack in all the things that I lack with effort and energy. And so as long as I could put forth the effort and energy and we're competitive, I'll keep coaching. You have one game that you can pick anyone to coach for you, your life is on the line. Which coach are you picking and why to

win that game? I always think this is a fun question for coaches. You can't pick yourself. Who would you pick? Who do you think would be that guy that you would select? Yeah, if, first of all, there's no chance I picked myself and my life depended on it, it'd be Rippettino. I think Rippettino. Um is the best I've ever done up against um. And the reason why is he knows what he's doing. But he also knows what you're doing, almost better than you know what you're doing.

He knows why you're doing it, and he knows how to prevent you from doing it. Um. He's been He's been my toughest matchup. Last couple of questions here for and I appreciate the time. If you don't get that job at Stanford, if Dr Tom Davis doesn't say, Hey, get on this plane with me. We're going to Palo Alto. You mentioned that you might have gone into the service. Do you think you would have found your way still back to coaching or do you think your life would

have gone in a completely different direction? And where do you think it might have ended up if coaching was not the answer. Um, I hope I would have gone to the military, and then that may have sent me in a direction. Um, But it didn't happen that way. Again, that wasn't God's plan. UM. I do believe that I was supposed to do what I'm doing. I do, But if I hadn't gotten too coaching right then I don't know that door where or how and when that door would have been opened for me again. And so I

would have just taken a um, a job, a regular job. UM. I have no doubt that in that job, I wouldn't have found a way to win. I wouldn't have found a way to be successful. UM. I don't care whether we're playing pick up or whether we're playing hop scotch. Um, I'm gonna try to win and um and uh, the only confidence that I have is that is that I'll work to try to find a way. And by the way, I'm okay with not winning. I'm okay with losing. I get that. Um, I just I just have a lot

more fun winning. Everybody everybody knows that feeling. What do you hope when you hang up the whistle, so to speak, and your career is over as a coach? What do you hope people think about Bruce Pearl as a coach? You mentioned I think it's so well said that I

remember having this conversation. I'm sure you've met him at some point with Derek Dooley and uh and he said, you know, when I was twenty five years old and I decided to walk out of the law office and go into coaching, getting to be the head coach of the University of Tennessee would have been a really successful tenure.

But if people look at it and say, well, I'm only going to think about three years that he was the coach at Tennessee, they don't think about the path that you had to get to to get to that point. And I always think that's instructive for everybody out there listening. People say, you know, hey, when you take over Rush Limbaugh, what if you fail I'm like, well, first of all, you can't fear failure. Uh and and the opportunity was too good to pass up, and the influence was too

good to pass up. But if it doesn't work out, it doesn't work out. You know, I had to do a lot of things right to get to that position, to take that job, And I think if you only succeed, it probably means you aren't trying to stretch yourself too far. And I say all of that to ask you the question. You're sixty two. Now you may coach for eight more years, like you said, make it into seventy. What do you

hope people take again? To your point, people may only define you if they've only been paying attention to Bruce Pearl at Auburn. They think one thing if they only paid attention to Bruce Pearl at Tennessee. But there's probably some people listening right now who watched your team's play at Southern Indiana and they've known you for most of your profession nor career. What do you hope people take

from your coaching career? Well, I would hope play that they would take um the approach that that he was more than just a coach, that he took his job as a coach and a teacher in the game of basketball very seriously, and he was and he was very good at it. His team's won championships. UM. Is there a chance that the runs at Southern Indiana or Wisconsin, Milwaukee, at Tennessee and at Auburn were as good a run as they had had in their history? Is that possible? Uh?

Coach Barnes right now has a has a real opportunity to to get there. With coach Meyers, I didn't. I wasn't there as long UM we had a good run that we were where we were there though, there's no question, UM. And so that's important, but probably more important than the success on the basketball court is that he cared about

things UM that had nothing to do with basketball. He carried about his players, He cared about his staff, compared about their successes, UM, their preparation for whatever else was like, cared about the community and worked really hard in the community to make it better. UM. And and and loved our country and and and you know, like I said, would have would would do the things that a citizen UM would do, UM to help make our communities and

make our country UM. And the best we possibly can and so UM, things like being a good like you. You had said to me, you said you were aware that my family is close, and you judge me based on You've got great kids and you know you could see their relationship. That's that's important to me. You know that people would would would respect me as a as a man, UH, as as a father, UM as a husband. UM. And you know I want the whole thing you know I want. I want, I want, you know I want

that I can't. I don't worry about what I can't control and um, and I don't worry about what people think because people are going to think what they think. UM. I I probably care more about the people that I either respect and admire. I probably care what they think more than I do, more than I really do what everybody else thinks. I wrote down May of three, I hope that we can make that trip. I really would genuinely love to go to Israel, spend that time over there,

bringing my family, have that experience. Uh. Bruce Pearl, you guys can tell I'm a fan. Does fantastic work in many different facets. Uh. Both that all the places he's coached, but all the lives that he is influenced and also pretty fun guy. Appreciate you, guys. This has been wins and losses. I am Clay Travisy is Auburn men's basketball coach Bruce Pearl. If you enjoyed this one, check out some of the forty plus other conversations, and thank you for spending time with us.