Carson Leno Fallon. Now it's wine talks with Paul K. Hey, welcome to wine talks with Paul K. We are in studio today, but to have a conversation for the second time with Josh Ratt's Gavin Brewer stabbard. Sorry, wine talks, of course, available on iHeartRadio, Pandora, Spotify and for the listeners, our disc filled up even though it wasn't full. And so we're retaking this and it's, it will get, cover a lot of ground a lot quicker this time around. Anyway, that's what happens. Hey, listen to Wanda
Mann. She is an influencer and editor of the Psalm Journal in the east coast side of things, as well as the editor of the tasting panel, one of the trade bags that I regularly read. Really interesting conversation on her take on the wine industry and what's happening. But because we have our guests from South Africa today, I wanted you to tune in to Mae Elian Lankisong, and she is 98 years old. She was on the show about two months ago. She was alive when her parents Chateau was invaded by the
Nazis and watched them literally shoot it up. She also hid three israeli families behind a wall and fed them for three months before their escape to Argentina. It's incredible conversation and her memory is unbelievable. But now while we're here, we're here to have a conversation with Josh and Gavin about the, the south african wine movement in
America. Welcome to the show. Thank you. So we're talking, we covered some of this ground already, but just for the lay of the lamp, for the listeners, it's not easy to get to America from South Africa. I mean, this is a long haul. It's a long flight, but I won't have it any other way to be in the states for these two weeks and to meet fine people like you, Paul. Well, I appreciate that. There's definitely easier ways to get to than
the route Gavin and I took. Now is this because of, I mean. Is it expensive to do this just where we needed to end up and just the connecting flights? But, you know, I started off by saying when you fly from here, the states to South Africa is direct flights. So it's not, you don't have to go through Europe and reconnect there. You can fly directly from Cape Town into Atlanta with Delta or into New York with
United. So getting from South Africa or getting from the states to South Africa is actually quite easy and not that difficult to fly to do. Do you know Peter Kauf, master of wine, one of the few south african master of wines. He's here in America. I gotta have to connect you guys. That would be good. He's great. I've been helping him with his website. It's very
interesting. Since you got the marketeer here, we'll talk about that. But I called him and said, look, I had a conversation with May Elian, I need to get to South Africa soon. And I asked him for the same instructions on how to get there and he said the same thing. But then he asked me, hey, I haven't been able to sell any wine and I'm trying to figure that out. Can you help me do that? I said, sure. Okay, I'll trade you on this. But the lay of the land for South Africa.
We don't see a lot of south african wines here. And we were discussing a little bit that New York, the east coast has always been more prolific when it comes to imports. Maybe because of its proximity to Europe. But if you walk into a wine shop in Europe, I mean, in New York you can see many, many more imported wines and there's many, many more importers in the east coast than there are on the west coast. And so here on the west coast, trying to get your
name out. Tell me the lay of the land in South Africa. If I come to South Africa as one of the listeners, where would I go? Where would be the best place to go? So you fly into Cape Town and you land at Cape Town International Airport. And around you you have six to seven loose standing mountains that basically rise up out of the ocean and hugging these mountains. Halderberg, Stellenbosch mountain. Simonsburg, Boca, dry hills. Those four mountains hills is where Stellenbosch
is located. And we are from Stellenbosch. So I really, you know, that is where my love for wine lies, is in Stellenbosch, in our little ward, which is poker, dry hills. But then, you know, you still have the Swartland, you have Himmel and Arde, you have the Robertson Valley. And all of these wine regions are in very close proximity from north to south, east to west. 100 and 5200 kilometers. Highly condensed. Highly condensed, not a large.
You're speaking kilometers to Americans. Yeah, that was when I said it. I thought, you know, it's easy to pound. Take two thirds of that 20 pounds. Divided by two, you got 10, is a little bit more. Two thirds. Two thirds. Yeah, basically, yeah. So is South African appellated that way in America, if you are in Napa and let's say you want to be a Rutherford Oakville, whatever sub region there is to Napa. It's quite a federal event to create a sub
appellation out of a larger one. Is Stellenbosch being a larger appalachian? Yeah. So you've got coastal region and then within that you'll have Constantia, Cape Town, Stellenbosch. But all of these are, I think the. If I have it correctly, I think in 1972 the wine of origin scheme was promulgated in South Africa. And you're right, it's not easy to. Our ward in Stellenbosch, Polkadria Hills is the youngest declared ward
in Stellenbosch. And that was done in. I think the final paperwork went through in 2006. But we dramatically different than the other sub wards of Stellenbosch. And you have to have that differentiation to be able to apply for your own classification. We're going to talk a lot about marketing today, but do South Africans relate themselves to a particular region? Napa is a great example. Not a lot of people would say, yeah, I can
tell. Additionally the Rethford, Oakville or certainly the mountains. It's a little easier to tell the terroir. But would a South Africa, a general south african consumer of wine say, yes, I know what stellebash means, I know what Cape Town means, I know it. So I think the modern wine era in South Africa, you know, we talked about 350 years. That's how old, plus how old our industry is. You know, we seen as both new world and old world because of the amount of years or the, you
know, the. The length of time that we've been producing wines. But then how old our soils are, the climate we have relatively warm, but maritime. And saying that, you know, I think there was a. It was referred to as a revolution. It was in Swartland, which is an area, one of the areas in South Africa. And they created hype around what they. What they are doing. We were before more controlled by larger cooperatives.
And post 94, after our freedom, democratic election, things opened up and we started focusing more on identity of independence and focusing on what works, in what areas. And they really kick started it, that revolution. But subsequently the other regions have really up their game in identifying what their uniqueness and
strong points are. And to a general south african consumer, yes, he's very aware of whether the wine is from Swartland, Himmelan, odd and Stellenbosch, firstly because of the style, secondly because of what they are doing there. They are different in what works in those areas. And then thirdly because there's a focus on quality, you know, and focus on quality is strongly related and correlated with a place and sense of place and identity of place, I think you'll
find. It'S pretty clear which each region is doing and stylistically, variety, all those kind of things, it's pretty clear what they're. What the different regions are doing and focusing on. So for the consumer in South Africa, it's pretty clear. If you like Pinot Noir, you go to the Yemen order. If you like Cab Sav, you'll go to Stellenbosch. So it's pretty clear what the difference. Pinot Noir from South Africa. Yes.
When did they start happening? Amazing. Pinot Noir. Amazing. With Pinot's from Burgundy becoming so difficult and exclusive to attain because of scarcity and price point, people are looking to other areas and we talked about it, whether we new or the old world, a lot of burgundian drinkers are happy to pivot towards south african pinot or shad because of the style that sits narrowly. Interesting thought on the marketing side, things. I was at a. There's a restaurant here. Are you guys going to
the beach cities while you're here? To Manhattan? Hermosa. We're going to Santa Monica. We're going to Santa Monica. We're going to go up to Venice beach for one day. They're going to be close. I haunt Hermosa beach, which is just south of Venice. There's a restaurant there called Arthur J. It's very well known, very exclusive. Wonderful list of wines. And when I go there, I often get the wine oldest dirt, which is a south african wine. Yeah, yeah. And it's
fabulous. And every time I order it, the waiter, the psalm goes, you know, tilts their head and says, what? How do you know about this? And because there aren't a lot around. And now you're telling me Pinot Noir is coming from there? And Pinot is such a conduit to the soil. What are we getting out of South Africa when it comes to Pinot? Because Burgundy's burgundy. Let me just back up one more second. It used to be in California, you would say, oh, this is very burgundian.
You would compare yourself to Burgundy, when in reality, it's nothing like it. Right. Tell me about the south african pinots that are being grown. So I think, you know, that's also something that I feel very strongly about. We mustn't try and say it is alike. You know, we can say our wines are of this quality because of that reason, and it compares because it is of a premium producer that does it very well. The soils, like you said,
it's granite. There's a little bit of limestone, they've got proximity to ocean, there's a bit of altitude, so it's split into tiers. But the wine show fruit purity. It has a little bit of a nuanced, you know, herbaceousness or spice, depending on the soil that it's grown on. But it's got this beautiful, seamless freshness to it as well. And it's classic, but it's
purely south african. And I always say, you know, whether you're drinking Chenin blanc, which we specialize in, which is very important for us, or whether you're drinking Pinot from, you'll always have the thumbprint of the african sun on the wines, you know, that will be there, you will taste it in the wines. But we don't produce it overtly sweet or overtly extracted, because we understanding our terroirs, we're focusing in what works where, which I've said a couple of
times now. And because we're understanding our terroir, we can better use that resource in the cellar to really produce terroir specific wines. So let's discuss terroir for a second, because 90, you, you said that in 94 is about when you think the technology and the idea of a current marketplace for wine in South Africa started, even though it's been there for 350 years. And I had a conversation with a winemaker in Missouri. Yes. And he is propagating american grapes of Vitis
Lambrusco. So it's not Vitis Vinefera grapes or the wine grapes, but I was sort of looking at him cross eyed, going, what is, what are you thinking? Because you have zero history. You have nothing to help you understand what this can produce. But even 1994 is not old, right? I mean, this is relatively young. How are you managing, understanding what this terroir is delivering to you? So, you know, at that stage, you know, winemakers traveled, man, you need
to understand what is happening in other areas. You need to work in other areas. You need to bring that knowledge back, that technology, and then implement it on your unique resources that you have, your soils, your climate and the grapes that you have. And even though it's young, I think the progress that we've made in the last 25 years has been immense. We're the darling of a lot of wine
journalists across the world. You know, our traditional trade partners, which has always been to Europe because of history, you know, our biggest export market has always been the UK, but the quality, you know, that has been exported has just grown in leaps and bounds, and that is because of producers coming into the game, bringing that expertise that they've built up and that experiences and investing that into this exciting region, which is South Africa.
And we spoke about it earlier. The big thing, you know, and talking about this Missouri and Vitis lbruska. I think the consumer, and this is where the marketer and the young agenda, they want things that are evolving. That's changing, that's different. You know, the traditional wine drinker was, I buy my six bottles of romani conti, or my six bottles. That's a great example, or whatever. I buy that religiously each year. The allocation is. The new consumer doesn't
necessarily want to build a seller of deepwater. He wants to buy something tonight and drink it this evening. And it's fresh and it's evolving. And I think it goes more towards looking at what is unique from your area, what is differentiates you, what makes you different. And we in South Africa look at sin and Blanc. That's our one variety that differentiates us from any other new world area. It's known because it's a french variety from the Loire.
But we in South Africa have 65% of the world's planting of this variety. So we use that as our calling card. I'm obviously very biased. I think it's bloody amazing, the wines that we make of it. But there are people that, you know, masters of wines, journalists for a lot of different publications that also, you know, underline this. And we have. We've got a group of american
psalms coming to South Africa. They're visiting us in late May. There is awareness, there is an excitement, but, you know, route to market is a difficult route to follow. And that's why we're here the next two weeks. That's why he's sitting right there. That's certainly. Well, it's interesting point, because sort of validates what I was saying in that you have many, many, many years of experience with Chenin blanc. Not only your
winery and your family, but South Africa in general. And Chen and Blanc being a very versatile grape, it can make sparkling wine dry, it can make sweet, late harvest dry dessert wines and everything in between. And we grow some here in California. You do? But not a lot. No. And because this industry is so slow, it's one year at a time that you get
to play with what you're given. And despite the billions of variables that could occur to create the grape that you're harvesting and making wine from, you know, it takes a long, slow, arduous trail to make what you think is specific to where you're being representing, and I mean, I think in the world of wine, if you're not representing a sense of time and a sense of place, you've already missed some part of this industry unless you're trying to be part of the supermarkets of all
the sugared up stuff that we drink. So I think that's a really valid point. Look, you never know. Look at Sancerre. Yeah. You could buy Sancerre all day long ten years ago, and now you can't touch it. The prices have gone through the roof and Shannon could take that path. Is it because you guys come here once a year and you start waving the flag? Poor people. These wines, you know, it's, it's a little bit like, it's
a little bit like, you know, in the trenches. Yeah, we walk in the streets, we meeting, and it's not, you don't go only in at the top, you know, don't only talk with the high distributors, the vice presidents and the presidents. We ride through from the, you know, we, we talking to the guys that, that sell it. We're talking to
the guys that buy it. We're talking to the guys that eventually drink it. So it's multifaceted, these trips, you know, and, and exposed, exposing our brands to people, you know, it's a long and hard way of doing it, but you create awareness and then you create, I always say that, you know, and this is now not strictly how we do it here, but the greatest ambassador for our wine region, we create by
getting people in South Africa. You come to South Africa, you experience the Winelands, the beauty of it, the tourism around it. You fly an hour and a half north to the bush, you experience the wildlife, you experience the whole of South Africa. The friendliness. Those people that drink the wines, they come back and they are ambassadors. And that's normally, you know, these things. When we have a tasting and it'll be consumers, you'll have a group
there. Have you been to South Africa? One will put up his hand. He said, the most amazing experience I've ever had in my life. And I brought my friends to taste the wines today because I tell them they must go there. Kind of excitement that we now, it's a little spark, but we want to fuel that and use that. You know, there's a million other strategies that you can do it on a more formal basis, but we here to create that excitement for what we do. And once they taste the wines, you
know, it's easy because the wines are bloody delicious. That's right. Well, no, it's an interesting point of today's marketplace, and this is my thought process. Maybe we'll hear from the marketeer on this. I think the Internet has done a disservice to wine world, even though sales volume is up because people can buy on the Internet. But what it's done is created a consumer who's a very, very priced conscious and much
less varietal and or terroir conscious. And I can only based on my experience, for instance, when we are on Amazon, which was legal at some point, the only wine we ever sold, and I put my whole portfolio up there, I mean, Burgundy's and Bordeaux and Napas, whatever was Moscato Diosti from Stella Rosa, you know, that 700,000 case per. You know, and the reason is that person shopping for something that they know and understand, they're not shopping to look around and have feel
it. The only way you can do that is to do what you're doing. Have dinners, taste the wine, put it in a glass. And I believe in the picture behind you in this patch here represents a time of wine that we need to go back to, or going back to, which is the experiential conversation over a glass. Talk to each other about what's going on in that glass while you're having it. Whether you're an educated buyer or taster or not, doesn't really matter, you know,
quality when you taste it. Have you when you come to America? Well, first of all, is that the case in South Africa or does everybody. Kind of know what's going on in terms of South Africa? You know, Africa, I don't want to say it's a little bit behind the rest of the world in that, in that sense. But I find that personalized experience is still very big because we don't have the biggest online markets and it's still a very growing
thing in South Africa. You still get a lot of people coming door to door doing tastings one on one at your winery. So I think in South Africa itself, I think that's still very much the case that people do the personalized experience. Do the chats show you around the, the vineyards and the, and the seller? So I think in South Africa that is, that's how it is. Obviously, the rest of the world is a little bit more Internet driven and things.
So, yes, I think it's tough. But yeah, in South Africa, I definitely, I feel like especially the younger generations still want human contact and conversation and see things in front of the eyes. So I think that's very important. And if you lose that, you sort of. You lose a big part of your market because people don't know what they're buying. That's true, because all they see is your bottle. They don't know what it means, who's there, where it comes from.
So it's very important to keep that human contact. I agree with that. It has a very romantic view of wine that eventually all generations end up with this particular glass of wine that turns them on to the idea of what wine can be. I don't believe. I'm Adam about this. That packaging is the solution. Yes, we can work about sustainability. I think sustainability in wine is probably
the most appropriate industry to be sustainable. But the fact you put it in a plastic jar or a can or a bag in the box or a squished plastic pet bottle is not represent what's in the juice. That's not the point. You buy
things for. You buy them for what you're talking about. This is experience. So to come back to a point that Gavin was alluding to is, I feel it's great to do these trips and to chat to people about your region, but to really, truly get someone to understand what you're talking about, you have to get
them there because the magic's in the place. And if someone's standing there and you're showing them table Mountain and you telling them about this world and showing them the sea and they can see it for themselves, I think that's the big seller, and that's what people need to see to truly believe in the magic of a place. And, I mean, I think, like Evan said, we need to get people to South Africa
to live it and to market it for us. You know, I think that's the biggest way to market your region, is to get people to see it and experience it for themselves. Is there a direct to consumer market in South Africa? You and I don't know the rules because there's 50 rules here. More than 50. But there's 50 states that create 50 rules. Yeah, no, we can. We can sell directly, and it's. It's not as regulated as. There's obviously rules in place, but.
But. But we can sell directly from the farm to the end consumer. But. But, um, so, you know, maybe just to jump onto it, there's a whole book on the. You know, and looking what. Why do we still drink wine? Why do we. You know, we drink wine because of the history and of this and that. Our history is relatively short. But we sitting here, we, you know, we second cousins. His father started our winery in 2000. So we about 25. We're 25 years old. 25 year anniversary. 25 year
anniversary this year. We're a family business that focuses on the core of producing bespoke, specialized quality wines. That takes into consideration what Aotearoa gives us, how we take care of our soils and our vineyards and then in the cellar, treat it with respect. And there's a little bit of romance to that, but we don't want to go and put our wines into pet little bottles and we can't do that. Whole industry is 90,000 ha. That is not even 10% of what Italy
produces, which is a million hectares, you know, so it's such a small industry. We need to focus on that, that special relationship, you know, telling our story, bringing what is different from us, you know, as a family, our focus on quality. The Chenin blanc and the Cabernet franc, we make and tell that story and that's why we are here. You know, it is a difficult way, but the volume isn't massive, but the quality focus and the story and the idea of South Africa being this magical place
on the southern tip of Africa. Well, that's why I brought it up, because certainly if you come to South Africa, which is not the easiest trip in the
world, we already discussed that. But even if you go to Napa and you're with your girlfriend, boyfriend, significant other, wedding party, bridal party, and you go to a winery and you sit and you laugh and you talk and you experience this brand and you join the club, for instance, which I was in the club business for 35 years myself, which has now changed
considerably. And the reason this change is that experience. And so certainly if we go to South Africa and go to your winery and taste, every time I see that bottle, I'm going to remember, particularly as late and after work, I'm tired, the kids are pulling my shirt tail, and I can have that glass of wine and drift away for a little bit. There's no other beverage in the world that creates that memory. And of course, with the human palate, the nose and your taste buds are the most memorable
sense you have, right? You can smell like, we were in Paris and they served a quiche to me and I freaked. And my wife's like, what is wrong with you? I said, this is my mom's quiche from like 50 years ago. She would just say quiche, right? When you smell something, you go back then I think that's what's in your favor when it comes to the experiential part of wine, because otherwise, it's just, it's sweetened up something on the shelf, and it's an augmented reality label. And who cares?
I mean, eventually, I already saw all the 19 crimes labels. I don't care anymore. Please don't convict me of a crime. We want to create that excitement for South Africa. How do we do it? We do it by specialization. We say, come and visit us. We here, we're showcasing the wine. So food is very important. Obviously, wine and food is hand in hand. We use the concept of bry. This is what we do. This is our traditional way of
preparing food. And it's over open fire. We use the hot coffee, and you see a meat or vegetables or breads or anything like this, and then you eat around a table and you share wine. And we're using that concept to create excitement for South Africa because that's something different that we do there. The way that we prepare it, the produce. You know, you think of Italy, you know, in the countryside, how great the produce is. You eat the fresh tomatoes. You remember your experiences in Tuscany,
but in South Africa, we have that as well. We can also create that nostalgia if you come and visit it and if you come and see it. But it's just a place that is so amazingly beautiful and full of potential. And, you know, we want to turn people onto it. We want them to say, I want to try south african wine. And how are we doing? We're saying we're doing the best wines, you know, from the Southern Territory. So when you're here, let's get real. When you're
here, you. You started well, this, this time you're on the west coast, you're visiting here, we're sitting, have a nice chat, but you're gonna go on to some account. You're gonna go to a restaurant now, are you gonna go to a retail store? What are you gonna do? So this evening, we're having one of these barbecues, but first we're gonna have. One of the tacos that suggested after the. Where are you going? Do you remember vendome? I
think. Okay, I think it's account. It's an account. It's an account. Yeah. Vendome. There's one right down the street. I don't know. It's a small chain. I'm not sure exactly what. And so you're going to pour? You're going to eat and pour. People paid to come to this? Yes. And you're going to tell the story. That's it. And then these people are going to say, hey, you know, what? I'd like to buy a case. I have to tell you a funny story. Yesterday, I went to an organic tasting, biodynamic organic,
and I actually bought something from the table. I filled out a form, and the guy yells in front, it's like 300 people. He goes, hey, guys, I sold something because no one ever does that. You know, on the trade side, no one ever fills out a form and places an order. But I know the guy. But the pull through volume from that point, from that conversation, from that experience, that handshake is what you're counting on. That's it. And that's why
we believe that the important. The distributor that we're working with, when we leave, they'll follow up on that and they'll, you know, build that relationship and make sure so, you know, selling a bottle of wine, there's so many steps. You know, I've just finished the harvest. My last grapes came into the cellar in the 28 march. So for the listeners, it's because they're in the southern hemisphere. Yes, yes. I take things for granted. I apologize. It's because we're in the
southern hemisphere. It's not because it was climate change and it's changed the whole. No, we blame a lot on that, by the way. So we harvest from early February to mid April, roughly. That's our harvest period. And we've just finished that. And now, you know, we've just finished that. We are now starting with our launches of our single vineyard wines in South Africa, which we sell directly. His father is doing that. We've got on the plane to come and tell
the story here. When we're back in South Africa, it goes on and on and on and on. So it's not. We sit back, make the wine, and then go. Go on holiday for the rest of the year. There's such a massive after production work that goes on. And Josh is fundamental to that now. You know, stepping in and driving that awareness of what
we do. Our base is low, so there's a lot of opportunity for growth, I think, and I believe, and I hope that as people look for areas that are unique and different, they'll look to South Africa, they'll see the 350 years of legacy because we're looking at things that have a little bit of history around it. Yes, there is. What are they currently doing? Because we're living in the current climate and we're making wines that are extremely popular and it has a lot
of value at price point. We haven't even discussed price point wines. The quality and the price point. I think you can't beat South Africa. Nowhere in the world you will have wines that have the amount of fruit, structure, elegance, drinkability that South Africa has. And that's across the price. We really go from 2035 45. I just think South Africa offers so much at the different. And we started off by. You didn't even know
South Africa makes pinot noir in the himalayan. Arnold. It's magic. I've never had one. It's magic. But Chen Blanc, Cabernet Franc, that's what we specialize in at Ross family wines. You know, pinotage, our heritage, variety, which is unique to us, that is being improved in leaps and bounds. And that's something that I think in future will be hugely popular as well. So there's so many things that is layered to this and we need to tell that story, but we're very excited to do it.
I. You know, I'm talking a lot now. When I visited Tuscany and specifically to taste the super Tuscans, you know, just to get a bit of a. And the Antonori family we spoke to, and they said, you know, 600 years worth of heritage right there. They said it's only the first 200 years. That's difficult. After that, it's very easy. You know, we had year 25 at the moment. That's right. And we are enjoying it tremendously, what we're doing. But that says volumes,
really. This is one of the things I wrote down, which is you're really stewards of the next generation, because chances are you're not going to see the 200 years yourself. So I hope so. I hope. Unless you're moses or something. Right. But you said a lot of stuff there is really important, because the price point in here, this wine of the month club originally was $15. You know, I would sell wine for $16 to $20 and I would have to buy them, you know, pre cheap. And
so that wasn't easy to do. And that not saying that's the reason I didn't do many South Africans, I did have access to them, but. And I did. And I had no resistance to features south african. Why? Because I wanted to show. Yeah. In fact, when I first started, my father, the first thing that I was responsible for was buying a romanian wine. And that was still
soviet then, and we found one, and so that's what we did. But what you're up against is, and I'm talking about for the listeners to understand our trade, is that if you're with a supplier and you've got a $15 wine or a $20 retail seller and you got a price point to sell wholesale so that somebody can pour it in a restaurant or put it on a shelf and make a dollar, which is not easy to do. You're up against the guy who walks into my office trying to sell
me something. But an hour earlier he was in a sales meeting and the winery said, oh, by the way, if you sell ten cases today, I'm taking you to Hawaii. Right? These resources that these big houses have that have all this stuff that they put
on the shelf. And so all of a sudden you're not in the book. You know, you're there and you've came out here and you had dinner, but, you know, the guy on the streets going, man, if I can sell a couple of cases, I got a free espresso machine, you know, you know, have you seen this kind of resistance or are your suppliers giving you the attention that you deserve? So, you know, we don't have the support from, you know, generic bodies and the
budgets to do things like that. The exchange rate, and I mentioned it earlier when we had our first conversation, they ran to the dollar. It's fantastic for you as an american visitor to come to South Africa because you've got a lot of bang for your buck, but the other way around, it's quite difficult. So we do. Our importer brings groups of people over to South Africa and that's where a lot of the loyalty is. I wouldn't say bought. That's where a lot of the loyalty is built.
Understood. But we don't believe in. And also that strategy is a little bit short sighted because I only sell that wine because I get something and then the next guy. So that brand now loses behind because somebody else is offering a better reward for his ten K status. That's right. So that will never be part of our strategy. We'll rather
make less wine, but better wine. And we hope that, you know, in the landscape the way we are, where people are drinking less and they're more aware of the alcohol and the nutrients in the wine, that they'll say, I'm not going to buy three bottles, I'm going to buy one good bottle and I'm going to buy a south african bottle. Yeah, that's what we're hoping. We're not having to chase these volumes and incentivize with a budget that we don't have, but we buy, not buy.
We build loyalty and upon that we will drive and you earn loyalty. That's it. Build, earn, because those are never going to end. There's a group called the Adeny Global Group. They're out of the Rhone Valley, but it's a think tank for wines. You got to check them out. And she made a comment to me. He's like, look, wine has always been about the consumer. I agree with that. So the question
I have was, a lot of people go to Napa. I'm a doctor, I'm an asphalt contractor who made billions of dollars in making freeways. And I see this lifestyle in Napa, and I go, oh, my God, I would love to have the chateau, and I'd plant my vineyards, and I can walk out every morning, listen to the roosters, and then I gotta sell something. And all of a sudden, this is not so much fun and it's not so easy. Is there a contingency in South Africa where somebody, you know, wealthy family
comes into the neighborhood, they go, I really want to be a wine person. Definitely is happening also. But it's more. It's not south african people, it's more european people coming and buying the farms. Gavin, why? They're cheaper than Bordeaux and Burgundy. Again, the hero. And the dollar goes quite far in the rand, and you can purchase quite spectacular property. And it's happening quite a lot. They buy up, and then it's plugged into large distribution. But, you know, we
are independent. We are free to do what we want and how we want to do it. You know, we bring that individuality, and maybe I haven't said it, you know, good enough, but 20 years ago, my cousin started what we do Rod's family once with a vision to produce Chennai blanc and Cabernet Francisco. To produce it in a way that is world class, to compete with the best from all over the world, and to do it like it hasn't been done before. And we've been slowly chipping away at that. Where did this
vision come from in the first place? So he, you know, he was a bit of a mavericker, and he studied wine, he worked abroad, and he saw. But everywhere in the world where people are successful, they specialize and they focus. And in South Africa, we had a little bit of a shotgun approach we made from a moscato all the way through to a sweet cab, and we hoped we would sell anything. That
specialization hadn't really happened. And he brought that vision and determination into our family business and established us as a winery that focuses on these two varieties. Chen Blanc obviously made sense because we have more than half of the world's variety. We have old vineyards that make exceptional wines. We're planting new vineyards that is suited in the area. So we need to do that to rejuvenate, to better produce, to
better understand, you know, the direction we are going in. And Cabernet Franc, I think, you know, his classmates at the time thought he was on designer drugs maybe when he chose Cabernet Frank, but it's. Again, he did it because it suited to the area. And if you want to be sustainable, you know, we love using that word, you know, in all segments of the market and sales. But if you want to be sustainable, you need to focus on what works in your
area. And those two varieties worked in our area. That was 20 years ago. He started it with a backpack on his shoulder. And now, you know, we can sit here, myself as his cousin and him as his son, and tell you the story. And we've been doing it for 25 years. It's only. But a little window curtain has opened only so much on what we are looking to achieve, you know, but it's a very exciting journey and it's something that's hell of a rewarding. And, you know, South Africa
hasn't got the. It's not as well known in the States, but I think, you know, when this little secret gets out of the genie's bottle. Oh, man, oh, man. Hold us back. I'm looking forward to that. We just. You discussed pinotage for a second. I wanted to. For the listeners, pinotage. I mean, if you were to talk about south african wines ten years ago, 1520 years ago, that's all you talk about. Chen and Blanc and. And pinotage. And pinotage then was a very creole. So Tari, it's a hybrid between
Ciso and, I think, pinot noir. Pinot Noir. But it had this very unusual character that was. It would put you off even in the nose. Was that indigenous to. So I think, you know, that's. If you think about the parental variety, senso pine noir. And during the period, the sixties, 1780s, when we were quite close, because of that terrible regime that we had in place, there was an evolution of what we were doing. Things were being done the same. I think peanutage was probably produced in a way that
didn't suit it because it wasn't cab, it wasn't. Syria didn't need extraction. It needed to be picked earlier, it needed a lighter hand, it needed a little bit of whole cluster and whole berries, it needed a little bit of concrete, you know, these type of things. And stylistically, pinotage has shifted gears, you know, like you won't believe the wines that are currently being produced are spice and perfumed and full of fruit and have all these
fantastic, you know, components in it. But the focus of that stage was these two varieties, but with specialization and focus on areas, what works. You know, we've evolved and we've gone past that conversation. We make some of the greatest
heroes in the world. We make some of the greatest. We make some of the greatest Cabernet franc in the world, even though we biased in saying that, you know, but peanutage is one of those things that are unique to South Africa and in a very competitive environment, you need differentiation, and that differentiates us, but we need to produce it in a way which I mentioned, because wine drinkers, you know, they'll move on very quickly if they don't like something. And
when people visit South Africa, they always want to drink peanut butter. It's one thing, you come there, you want to taste it, and we can make it interesting and great. They only won't drink it because it's a gimmick in South Africa. They'll take it home and buy it off a shelf from their retailer, you know, because it was made well. So I think that variety pinotage has evolved the most from what you have in your mind to how. Interesting point,
though, you just made it, which is. That's what I remember now. I've had some more contemporary peanut butters that did not carry that. And, you know, it was always considered maybe it was a flaw, maybe it was a soil, maybe who knows what it was? And now I get it based. And I love the idea that, you know, carbonic maceration was part of this sort of solution, because I agree with that makes a ton of sense. But look how
slow it's taken. And I don't know anybody that right now my wine drinking public would say, do you have any peanutage? Because those years probably created a resistance to the product. This might be a sensitive subject, but you brought up the regime, and I want to bring this up because I had a very interesting african american woman here. I actually was at the African American Vendors association tasting two weeks ago in Napa, tasted about 75 wines, all african American owned.
And she said she went to South Africa and she had wine with. It was a couple of sisters. Tiv and sisters. Yes. Yeah. More than two, I guess. Yeah, more than Mary. And she said that their number one marketplace was America and why? In that she sort of called it racism to a certain extent. But she came back to America and got into the industry and created a group and has become an influencer in the industry. And it's an issue here. I
checked. I can't remember what social event occurred in the early two thousands that I decided, I'm going to go find an african american wine to feature in the wine of the month club. I could not find anybody that was making enough for the club. And I was probably buying, I don't know, 7800 cases of red at the time a month. And now there's 200 members of the same organization when there's only five. Is that an issue in South Africa still? So I think the industry
has evolved quite a bit. We have one wine that we produce, which is the Mister de Compostela. M? R. Stands for Humbe and Rohtz. So my cousin, when he was a winemaker at El Air in the late nineties, he had an apprentice in Zakorna M? Vembe, who was one of the first black african qualified winemakers. And they built up a friendship there that transcends now three decades already. And in early 2000, through that friendship, they decided to build a wine together, which was called the Compostala from
Raj. And this year we are releasing the 2020 to at the end of the year. And that was one of the first south african partnerships where it was purely because of friendship. Two winemakers coming together and building a wine that is very unique and quality focused. And, you know, that's something very special for us. That wine is, in terms of its regard, is probably one of the highest rated. Really? Wow. South african wines in the border classification each year stands head
and shoulders above its peers. And we're very proud to be part of that. And that was long before this conversation really started. We went through something and we are very glad at the evolution that is currently happening. There's. It's fabulous. And I spent a lot of time with that. And women and wine in America, percentages
more winemakers than there used to be, 25% probably. Now, coming out of school, I actually had an intern here, and her job was to write my talking points for when I had women winemakers in the show, and I wanted her to watch. And now she's at Cornell, at theology school, because she got so inspired by these conversations. Very proud of that. But, you know, it's an intimidating subject for generally, for people, it's intimidating. And so I don't think the industry set out to be
exclusive, but because of the. Because of the nature. And there was an ad today. Somebody posted an ad today. Despite our second time around, we're actually almost out of time. But somebody wrote, posted an article, not article, and two advertisements that were in an older trade mag, let's say from the seventies. One was about Inglenook wines, and they said, if you want to learn about wine, you should
understand, this is the ad now, you should understand the language of wine. And they had some basic descriptors that would use. And then the other ad that he posted was about dry sack sherry, and it was something a man's drink. And he goes, there's a couple reasons why these two art ads would never run again. And I can understand the man's drink thing. You can still run it. People just get offended by it. But the other one, I didn't, I
didn't quite. I haven't grasped this concept yet. And there's this whole movement to change the language of wine. Have you witnessed any of this or talked about it or. I think it's probably one of the big things with wine is, you know, we young, I'm relatively young, we want to break down these barriers that stop people from engaging with wine. We want people to drink wine like they enjoy drinking it, you know, and not have this heavily over complicated ways of
describing it and excluding people. We want inclusivity. And, you know, I'm glad that that ad won't run again, you know, describing how you must talk about wine. Right. Because each person's opinion and perspective is formed by his past and what he was exposed to. And what I have been exposed to in my life and yours is very different. That's right. So how must we now be forced to describe how we centrally smell and taste something? How is that going to be exactly the
same? And because you say it in one way, it's right, and I say it in another way, it's wrong. And that, for me, has never made sense. So we must embrace this opportunity of allowing people to just enjoy wine for what it is, not discourage them, because they don't understand it all, but try and explain it and include and expose more. And I think trying wine from South Africa is maybe a very good way to start doing that.
That's what we're going to end every sentence with. Try wine from South Africa. A friend of mine made a very good, for me, for myself, a very good comparison. Which ties into the question is, he said, in terms of wine, wine needs to find its live golf. If you take the PGA Tour and now the live golf, wine needs to find its live golf because forever it's
been done like this and there's no other way of doing it. And now you've got this live golf thing that comes along that's more inclusive, more open to everyone. People are enjoying it and there's record crowds now. So I think wine needs to sort of do that. That's a pretty interesting analogy. Yeah. So I just think it's. Which is more fun, which is more inclusive, which doesn't box people up. You know, people can experience how they want to experience it and
not be told how to experience it. And I think that's a. That's what wine, the wine industry needs to do, is you need to include people and let them experience something the way they want to. You think Gary player would go after that? Was he south african? He was black Knight. But you know, we love talking about the soil. And these guys here,
they want to. They want to. They want to live it up. And I think, you know, where our sales are going to come from in the future is probably from the younger wine drinking community who's prepared to try things different. And we need to spice it up. Like he said. Well, look, you've probably done this before too, and we're gonna wrap it up.
But I can't tell you how many times I've run into just. There was an email string going around today with my college friends and one guy chimed in and this guy, I mean, he's one of those guys, he'll tell you all about the Lafitte he drinks and all the classified growth Bordeaux and the grand coup Burgundy's. That's all he talks about. It bores the hell out of me. And I've done this for 35 years. So I want to. I want people to experience that glass of wine too.
I just have a problem with this concept of innovation. We need to be more. What innovation? This is the same damn product. It was 6000 years ago. But maybe just the conversation around the product and that thing that we spoke about, including people. Yeah, well, almost every conversation, probably as you, as I have. And they're non threatening conversations like, I'll go to dinner tonight and it will come back to wine. And I'd be very careful about how
I present myself. So I'm not, you know, talking about all the stuff that I don't want to hear, but it always opens up to wine. It always talks about wine and. And it's people asking questions. Exactly. You know, and I'm very specific about the answers. Not to be boorish and all that stuff and talk about the soil and the taproots, but it's a subject that people want to
know. They do have interests and then there's. I have friends. They buy the same wine from me every month, and they just know what they like, and they're not interested in knowing more. And I think a lot has to do with that. Are you an inquisitive person that cares about history? I love history. I read all kinds of stuff about history or going to France. I'm reading about Josephine Baker. I like that. But not everybody's like that. Exactly.
Gavin's like that. He loves these reasons. But you always know. This is the part that fascinates me about wine, is that when that person has that wine, that really triggers something. And it's not a store bought, you know, apothec red or Josh. Those do not stimulate thought processes, but they'll have that one burgundy, or that south african old as dirt, or they'll have something that they'll go, oh, my. God,
that'd be amazing. I think I've always. My dad's always said to me, just something he's taught me over the years, is wine. Wine is very different and unique to any other alcohol beverage is the fact that wine is. Wine is a lifestyle, if I can say to you like that, or for us in our family, wine is a lifestyle. Wine's always been there. We talk about wine. We enjoy wine. So I think the way you live out your wine experiences is you can speak about the soil to people who love
to hear about the soil, or you don't have to speak about it all. You just see how nice it is and you enjoy it. So I think it's so diverse as well, in, like I said, coming back to my. My comparison, you just need to stop worrying about how other people want to enjoy their wine. Just enjoy the way you want to. And there you go. And one more thing about the inclusivity. I think South Africa is definitely making forward steps, I think, especially in terms of women in the industry. I think it's a
massive growth in South Africa. So I think definitely we on the right track in terms of. In terms of that. And as well, we are the rainbow nation. And I think since 94, as we said, I think South Africa has been making fantastic strides. In that sense, I think it's onwards and upwards. Well, it's great to have you guys here to hear about it. We're at 53 minutes already, which is amazing. Very insightful and thoughtful conversation. I really appreciate you being. I hope it goes well the rest of
the trip. Thank you. Because you do exactly what you came to do, which is teach people you know what's going on. In the southern hemisphere. When it comes to tonight, I'll talk and he'll fill up the trolleys. Yes. And, Paul, if our whole trip we only got you to come to Africa, that's a win for us. Hopefully, we'll see. I desperately, when I talked to May Eliane, I was trying to get down there like this first quarter. I have to go see her. And so that will happen for sure. Chipping
a putz away from us. Chip in a putt. That's it. Or a PGA. Whatever. Whatever floats the boat. Just go for the green. And one. No layoffs. Cheers, you guys. Good luck. Thank you so much. Thank you for listening to wine talks with Paul, Callum, Cary. And don't forget to subscribe because there's more great interviews on their way. Folks, have a great time out there in the wine world. Cheers.