Wine is magical. If you can find that, and if you find a group of people who also share that passion, you really evoke an incredible conversation that's able to, as we mentioned, just bring you to a spot that you probably could never have dreamt of. But at the same time, I never, ever feel that, you know, it's wasted on anybody because I think wine brings people together. And that for me, connections is the most important thing. And bringing people together over wine, it adds to that beauty.
Sit back and grab a glass. It's Wine Talks with Paul K. Hey, welcome to Wine Talks with Paul Kay. And we are in studio today in beautiful Southern California, about to have a conversation way out in China with Emily Steckenborn. Introductions in just a minute. Hey, have a listen to a show I just put out. Actually, you can watch it on YouTube as well with Catiard, with Florence Cathiar. She is the proprietor with her husband of Chateau Smith au Lafitte
as well with Cathiard Vineyards in. In. In Napa. Incredible insight. And they were both on the French ski team when they met and became celebrities in our industry. But have a listen to that. But now while we're here, we've already had a pre call with Emily, but it was so fascinating, I couldn't wait to get her on the show. This is Emily Steckenborg. She is the host of the podcast Bottled in China. Welcome to the show. Thank you so much, Paul. I'm so
excited and really a big fan of your show as well. So looking forward to talking with you. Well, that's very kind of you to say. You know, I have a question. This is a serious question. Okay. Does the Chinese food in China reflect anything of the Chinese food we have in the North America? You know, I'm so glad you brought this up because when I first moved to China back in 2009, I really expected to have fried dumplings and just all these different foods that I was
expecting and it was nothing, nothing like it. I was so disappointed. And I actually lived on ice cream the first year, so that's when I was very, very young and could do that. And let me just say that it is completely different, but some of the best food I've had in the world is definitely in China. And I've traveled nearly every week for years out in mainland China. And every single region is
completely unique for food. So gastronomy, what we know back in US especially when it comes to know the fried rice, fried chicken, all these different things, sweet and sour, you don't really see it as Much as you would expect out in mainland China. It's completely different way of eating and the ingredients are different, and it's very, very different. I don't know if I. If that makes me feel good or not. I. I feel like I've been bamboozled all this time. And I. Well, me too. I don't blame you.
Very Asian area in here in Southern California. And though I will say I had a. We entertained. I don't think I told you this when we spoke the first time. We entertained a principal of a high school from Shanghai, and he had to pass an English proficiency test to come here. And he shadowed the professor, the principal of Arcadia High School here in Southern California, for six weeks, and he wanted to live with an American family for at least a week.
Now, am I so American? I don't know. We're Armenian. We kind of have that way about us. So he. But he wanted to live with us, so we did that for a week. And his English proficiency wasn't very good. So it was very hard to. To manage this guy. But I picked him up every day from school, dropped him off, and he wanted to eat what I ate every morning, and he wanted to drink what I drank, and he wanted to eat dinner with us because he wanted to experience American
living in an area. Right. The poor guy. I was on a diet, so I was. Oh, just salad. Disappointing. So, but the point I was going to make was that he knew the restaurants in Arcadia to go to already before he got here, and one of the. He took us to one of them. There was no English on the menu at all, so. And I don't remember what I ate, but I'm thinking, wow,
that might have been a little more indigenous. What did this cuisine come from? Not the subject of our podcast, but I wonder where this American version or North American version of Chinese food came from. Any idea, you know, if you vice versa? Well, it's actually much more southern China, so we're thinking Hong Kong, Guangzhou. And actually a lot of the dishes as well come from different regions in Asia, so. Because, of course, you also find sometimes
sushi at a Chinese restaurant, you know, in America. So it's not, you know, it's not off the menu that there's also some interesting way that they localize to the market. And actually that brings up such a big topic, actually, Paul, in regards to our conversation, because vice versa, if you do look at food, Western food, now, today's changed a lot. If you go to main cities like Shanghai, you'll
have incredible cafes and French food. But of course when I was there at the beginning, over 10 years ago, if you had a fruit salad, it had tomatoes in it. Right. Like you had a different types of foods that they, local, they thought the Chinese would like, but it was westernized. And so their idea of Western food when they do go to the US now, of course you have hamburgers and all that, but at the same time wasn't really a lot of western food. So actually vice versa, there was a misconception
as well of a lot of the ingredients that we would use. And, and so it goes both ways. It definitely goes both ways. But a lot of the cuisine that you do see out in, you know, Canada, US etc. Is actually coming a lot more from Hong Kong and from Gwangju than it does from North China or Chengdu or Yunnan food, for example. That's so interesting. I just, I just had this flashback and then we'll get started, I guess. But my wife's cousin owns a very well
known restaurant here in Southern California. It's been open for 35 years. It's iconic in its, in its position in the world of restaurant restauranting in Southern California. And when very popular with the, the indigenous Asian community, when they come to visit their friends from China, they go to Mipiace and many of them don't speak any English and they bring along on their phone pictures of the food that they've been told to order
by their friends. Okay. Yep. And so that's how, I just think it's fascinating that it gets back to mainland China that this, when you go to Southern California, you must go to this restaurant and here's what you're going to eat. So food, the culture of food in China, is it that, I mean, is it part of like the America in the 80s when it became popular? What, what is that? Well, you just raised two points. Number one is the power of social media in Asia and the way people eat.
So what you'll also see, and probably that could be what happened as well, is not only word of mouth. And if we do even look at wine, the second most important factor when we did our research looking at consumer habits first is that people actually are going to go online, they're going to look at the brand. The second one is going to be recommendations from, let's say top psalms or critics. And the third will be recommendations from
friends and family. So recommendations on food, where to eat, where to go, what to do is huge. Now the second big thing is also Xiaohongshu, for example, which is the Equivalent of a mix of Instagram and that type of asset because as you know, Instagram's blocked. In mainland China there's a lot of food blogs and food tours where you go, spend 24 hours in Hong Kong, spend 24 hours in Los Angeles where you should go eat what you should eat. So this is driving the consumption.
And also in China we have an app called Da Zhong Xianting and that is basically where you could see everybody's review for food. That's where coupons are integrated into the platform. Honest reviews of food and people are very picky. And it does even for myself, I will not go to a restaurant before reviewing everything that
I'm going to eat and making sure it's exactly what I want. So I think it's a different way of perhaps consumption and also influence on where people go and trying to find the best spots. So America developed its nouvelle cuisine in the 80s. Jonathan Waxman Michael McCarty Joaquin Special Ken Frank and it's always been, at least in the wine trade that the Asian communities have been a little bit behind the curve. Right. Japan's a little bit ahead of the curve
when it comes to wine. The Chinese seem to, you know, they, they grasped onto a few years ago, did very well with it. Consumption seems just changed. Is, is it the same way with food then? It, it just takes a little while to, to get traction. And are they health conscious about the food now that they're, that they're eating? Definitely food. You know, they definitely are conscious of that and they're careful
with food. I think it's more about the taste and the food and maybe the ambiance more than, you know, health in general. But especially when people are dining out, it's very different than what they would consume at home. Now when you're asking about the revolution of food, food culture in China is very, very strong.
And I would say it's a way of life. And yes you, if I'm understanding your question, that micro chef and, and those chef influencers, I feel like China's always been very, very food based and a lot more about gastronomy. And it goes to say when you go into China, there's not one food, there's various styles of food and various regions all have their own specialty. So I would say the whole food culture and how unique it is is not new whatsoever, but I think it's being amplified.
But of course the idea is that social media and also the idea that beyond Michelin Guide there is Black Pearl, which is its own Michelin Style recommendation. So it even has its own program. And I would say if you have anybody who's been to China, they'd know that food is absolutely incredible and very, very diverse and taken very seriously. I've never gone to one meeting for wine
where food was not the topic of the conversation. It is that important and it's something that people are very, very proud of. Let's do a quick timeline of how you got there, because you're not just trying to ascertain the languages you might speak. Because you're from Toronto, though, it's not the French side of, of Canada, but you did study in France. I'm assuming you speak some French, right? Yes. You obviously have a very strong Chinese accent now. So you speak
some Chinese, you articulate English. Your English is very good. So how did you end up in China from Toronto? I've never heard anybody say it like that, but I'll start to say it like that, though. Paul, thanks. For now, it's going to be stuck in my head. I'll bring it out when I don't need it. Then they'll know I'm just not from Toronto, I'm from China. No, but,
but actually, it's funny you say that. So, yes, we did grow up in French because obviously even in Toronto now I can't say it, but even out in Toronto, actually, my mom's side is all from Quebec and from Maria. So we do speak French. And there is a strong French within other areas outside of Quebec and those provinces or that province. So I actually, my actual, I guess, start into
China was back in 2009. That was just for studying and I was very grateful for that because my family kind of sent me off to China and said, go figure it out. Now. We did learn Chinese growing up, and one of the key things as well was, you know, at the time 2009, China was really booming. And, well, actually, I would say it's still kind of under the. Under the radar, but there wasn't much information about China. All I knew is that we saw the potential that this will evolve into a
key market. And I was very fortunate that I had a family that also saw the future and that was able to say, well, this is going to be a growing economy. If you could speak either both languages or work with these two countries, you're going to have an advantage. And they were very, very much correct. And I, you know, you see that in India in a way where I tried
to study Hindi for years. It just didn't stick to me because I wasn't in the right environment, but it's one of those things where I think languages not only open up doors, but they forge real good connections, real understanding of the market in a way that perhaps other people might go to China for five years or three years and just never integrate or fully understand what it
takes. And so I went back officially in 2011 after some wine studies at Niagara College and also, you know, trying to get into the wine industry and started off my career back in 2011 in Shanghai at that time, and then stayed for over a decade or nearly a decade in Shanghai working with some top importers, distributors, wineries, government organizations as well, helping to consult their consulting for airlines like China Eastern as their official consultant for business and first class.
So a lot of things there. But it was definitely an incredible moment. And most importantly, it was a moment where we had the chance to experience China's growth. But also you saw how complex it was. We had different types of situations always come up to us. Either was tariffs, which with us and China, or terrorists with Australia and China, or then it was the anti corruption law which destroyed a lot of the fine wine market early on. And it was always something new
happening in China. So to be able to be, to pivot, to take what's coming at you, to change your plans every two, three months, it was actually very much something that I understood quickly and I think it's been very valuable. Are you completely accepted by the Chinese community? I think that now in, in China, that is, I think
they're extremely welcoming. China is incredibly safe and people respect if you make an effort for language, if you make an effort to integrate, people are so receptive and open and I would say I'm very, very grateful. And another thing, actually, Paul, and I know you didn't ask that, but I think it kind of goes into that question. Some people ask me, you know, what it's like working in China as a woman, especially as a very young woman, and I
look much younger than my age, so I've never had an issue. The Chinese mindset is both that if you're ready to work and put in the effort, you will get rewarded. And equally, a very exciting part as well is that especially in say, Shanghai, the women are the ones who manage the money, who are really the decision makers. And I've met so many incredibly
talented women. So it's a very inclusive environment. And I would say because of that, I would really, you know, I'm very grateful for that opportunity and would recommend it to anybody to go there and to be Open to the experience. I mean you chose to rather patriarchal societies, right? I mean you've got the French patriarchal and then China, of course.
And I've always thought that fascinating about the reps representatives that called on me over the years, particularly the French women that would come in here to sell wine and they all had a very similar drive to them and, and almost the reasons were not exactly the same to get out of France, but clearly it was to go on your own. To make my own decisions, to forge my own way. And that was much more difficult in France than it would have been
here. And when I would speak French. And they also didn't like it. Not because my French was so bad, because it wasn't that bad, but it was, you know, they just loved speaking English and being part of the, the Southern California community. I think that's kind of where it was. And then he chose a chosen industry which generally has been put down because of their. It's not non acceptance of women but you know, there's just not that many women in executive
positions. It's growing a little bit, but. So you have two, I'm not saying strikes against you, but certainly two pieces of headwind in this. I didn't feel well, I guess ignorance is bliss. Well, you could, you can set your limitations or you can do your best. And I think honestly at the end of the day I hear a lot of that and I guess that's a very, to be honest, a very North American thing where at least when I did work a little bit in the US I felt like
everybody talked about it so much it becomes your reality, right? Oh, I'm against or they did that because I'm a woman now. I'm not ignoring that that does exist. Perhaps I'm also taking a different approach. Great. If it's something I can't change, I'm just going to work harder than anyone. Like I don't, I don't see why that would ever stop me or I would use it as a crutch. I mean I'll be very open. I started in the industry. I was 17. You're not allowed to drink when you're 17
in Canada, I think it's a little bit older, it's just a year away. But I never let anything stop me. If I wanted to learn something, I go and do it. And I think that if you have that mindset, anything comes to you, you will embrace that. And so if ever I did have an issue where I was too young for this big position or they didn't think, you know, now I say my age, I never did for up until the last few months. But you know, I just feel like, oh,
I'm not, I'm definitely not. But you know, I wouldn't even say some, some things that would bring me into that topic. But, you know, you are. People always put these limitations in front of them and it's actually their wrongdoing. So no, I think if you, if you want it as a woman, you can, you can get it. You might have to work hard. Don't let it stop you. Why that'd be. You'd hate to look back,
right, and regret that. Well, there's, there's something important about that. And I had a woman on the show, she was a R D C executive and she started her career in, in the world of alcohol as like the Corona girl kind of thing. You know, she'd show up at a bar and she'd be scantily dressed and she would pour shots for people. And then she saw an executive from, from, from Young's Market at the time come into the, to set up for this event and she goes, one
day I want to wear the business suit. And she became Southern California, major player in the district. And she retired the same, actually the same exact day I did from the trade. But she came on the show to talk about. It's almost a lie. She said it's a lie to think that you can do all these things and particularly in the industry that we're in, which is very demanding, which is. Takes you to restaurants at night and your schedule is very fluid, as you already know,
to when you get home and when you're. She had triplets and so she said, yeah, yeah, right, that's different. Right. But she said it took the kids, I don't know, six to nine months for them to trust her that she's. When she said, I'm going to step out, you know, I'll be back in an hour kind of thing for them to trust her. And it's, it's very demanding. And I mean, given those circumstances, is it, is, is
the trade in China like that? Are you out doing tastings at night entertaining dignitaries with wine as a luxury brand representative? 100% and especially true in mainland China. When I had a team, we had a team of ambassadors across Asia and, and for my team In China, our KPI was over 250 events a year. Right. So
you could just imagine how many times you have to go out. And I was drinking with government and our, and our Wholesalers and our distributors and traveling at least to one to two cities a week minimum. And we were drinking, I would say, at least three, four times a week. And it wasn't, you know, if, you know, Chinese drinking culture for business. And it was very much Gun Bay, right. So you had to go to every table. We had sometimes 50, 60 tables. And you have to go drink with
everybody in chairs and show face. So definitely. And I think that that that was a very demanding time of during my career because it was quite extreme. I think Hong Kong, the drinking is a lot more reasonable. So yes, there different types of consumption. But if you did come to China and you were expected to be in that role, I would expect that you would be able to do
that. So I think it's changed a little bit, of course, for health reasons and also just because as you go on, it is a difficult schedule to main. I do think it was really worth it to be able to meet so many people, understand the trade, what really goes on in tier two, tier three markets, really what's going on, what the consumer wants in China, what they tell you, not just what you read in a magazine. So I think that
was very valuable. And yes, it is very difficult. You have to just make choices and also try to find balance, which I think is also a different phase of each life. And I could do that at that phase. And now today is a little bit different. You know, you said something earlier, but consumer habits and just brought it up again. You know, there is this big shift in consumerism of Chinese, in the Chinese community of wine. And this is one of the comments I was making about the curve
that the Asian communities go through when they find wine. And that is they start with only the best that they can find. The best Bordeaux, the best Napa, the best whatever. And then eventually the community learns that there's some really great things in different price ranges and the community's got out. But you moved into the luxury brand market with lvmh. Was that a whole different experience for you when you got to that level of marketing and consumerism? Not
necessarily. I feel that in regards to what we do in China, yes, in general, I think the consumption habit, especially earlier on, was very much driven by Bordeaux and was very much driven by the top chateaus in terms of knowledge base and understanding. And then you did have a wave of people just purchasing that who did have money. So that was a very different time. And yes, you're correct, we have to adapt. The consumer now is very different than just buying labels that's still an important
and incredibly important part. I did mention at the beginning that that's one of the key factors for consumers who are choosing a bottle of wine. Brand is the number one factor. Now, it doesn't only be the expensive Lafitte. It could be as a general example, it could be Penfuls, which is one of the most recognized brands. And I used to work with them. So it is a brand, right? The 407 is a brand. Then you have Cloudy Bay as a brand.
So these very. These brands are incredibly important. And people underestimate the amount of time it does take to build an investment require. But also what people underestimate is the power of a brand. And sometimes we feel like discounting is the right option or all these different tactics. So my recommendation, as you mentioned, is, you know, is the. Is the consumer very much into brands in China? Yes, they are. But it's not just because it's a name. It's
because what it represents. It represents. If you purchase this, you have a quality guarantee with it. That's really where it is. And also it's the clarity of saying, if I buy this, because, you know, as you know with wine, right, you can only know if it's good once you've opened the bottle. So are you willing to pay 50, 60, 100, $200 to find out you don't like it? So you're going to go with what people recommend. If you're not too aware of. Of how to taste wine now, with
education, with tasting, then it becomes a very different story. And that's where people now are branching out, especially in tier ones where they're interested in orange wine and they're interested in natural wine. And you see the movement towards Burgundy, whereas that really wasn't existing 5, 10 years ago. Burgundy was just not a thing. It was really dominated by Bordeaux. And today Burgundy is very exciting, but it's really for a very niche consumer. Kind
of. Kind of lies with what I'm saying, because, you know, all roads lead to Burgundy when it comes to being an Eophile, eventually. And it takes a while to get it. And I opened a bottle of Grand Cru yesterday and I was just like, blew everybody away. Had never experienced this complexity
before. But you said something interesting. And it was early on in social networking, back in the early days when Facebook first started, and there weren't even ads on Facebook because no one wanted to leave social networking to
buy something that you just didn't do that. It was completely opposite of today, but it was contended and was part of the narrative that the generation that was jumping on Facebook at the time, 80% of them would have preferred a recommendation on a product than to go out and figure out on their own. Now I'm the opposite. I have to figure out my own. And if I make a mistake, that's my fault. But. But that still seems to be true, particularly with the way marketing has been going these days
that, yeah, people just will take that Yelp or the Michelin. I use the Michelin guy when I travel. But they'll take that recommendation over trying to hammer it out themselves. And I'm assuming that with the, with the Chinese apps is very similar, 100%. You know, you have, I think I mentioned very briefly before something called Little Red Book. Little Red Book is where most people now don't even use search engines. They just go on that little imagine. It's almost like a, an Instagram
interface, right? Or kind of a blend between Instagram and TikTok. But you can also purchase on that app. So if you wanted to find a real review about the wine you're going to drink or a real review about the product you're going to purchase for makeup or perfume, you can watch a little video and figure it out. And consumers, you know, we do see that the economy is struggling, so spending is also tightening, is changing, and therefore people are a little bit
more cautious with their spending. And therefore they do want to make sure they're getting value for money or they're, or they're making sure what they're receiving. When it comes to other apps like platforms where we purchase Tmall, JD.com, taobao or other apps, you see the recommendations everywhere and you see the star rating and then you see how many people
even purchase that product. A little bit like Amazon would, right? And same thing, when you do go on Amazon and you want to purchase anything, it does matter if it's a two star or a four star. Is there, is there a DCC market for wine in China? Can I order online and have a ship to my house? The D2C network in China is absolutely incredible. I would say it's the best in the world. And I used to only buy my wine online and you could order a
bottle. Incredible things even from the 90s or they always had something special and great prices now. So you do see a lot less tnt. So wine coming into the market, which is parallel and it would come to my house packed fully packed in a great packaging within one or two days. You don't Need a signature. It's just left outside of your door. If you're not there, no one takes it. There's, you know, there's surveillance. So you don't have
any of that. That. What is it called? Like, balcony fraud? Is that what it is? Sorry. Yeah. I could have made a fortunate. We don't have that right. Logistics is really incredible. And even for food. I was just with a friend yesterday and we were thinking. We were just discussing how I never cooked at home. I just never had the time. And I would take takeout, but I would have food maybe for $5 and it would still be included with delivery. That's how insane it
was. And it's very much that. Very low prices, huge. You know, right now also, you do see a lot of people who can't find jobs. So there are a lot of delivery men and applications which can do the job very quickly and efficiently. So the integration and seamless experience, even of somebody who's doing a live stream and you purchasing that bottle and the bottle coming within one or two days is. Is real. And it is a great consumer experience that you want to purchase
online and you can refund it and there's no issues. And it really is set up in a way where, you know, a lot of my favorite stores in Shanghai just don't exist because everything's online and they have their own official flagship store. So it's a very different way of consuming wine. Isn't that amazing purchasing? Isn't that. Yeah, like. Well, Canada is very
restricted. You know, they have like 100 tariff on. I sent a case of Opus once to Ontario and it was, you know, they were going to tax me the same value of the case of Opus, which is like $6,000. And so I said, no, thanks, I'll take it back. But. And in America, everybody knows the DTC rules are ridiculous. And part of the reason that my wife and I retired when we did was, was because she didn't want to do 38 more tax returns, you know, by the. By the mid
year. So we just stopped altogether. And so that's really interesting that culturally it's better. It's better than America, it's better than North America. And so I was looking at some of your credentials and you're talking about one of the things that was written about you, the top 50 wine influencers. What does that mean to you? You didn't seek to be a wine influencer. And is it something that you. I'm
gonna say leverage, but something that you use in your job today. No, I think I never really say it or use it or anything, but I think that's probably coming from the podcast and the conversations and then being able to bring out the stories of what's going on in China and share that with the world. When I did start Bottled in China, it was 2016, and so it
was very early on where there was just. I was just fed up to hear all the news about China or especially for food that we were talking about before, and also the wine industry and people having such a negative perception. So I guess it was coming from that, where, you know, having that platform to discuss and try to change people's idea and concepts of China and give more clarity on the market. But I would say it's always useful, of
course, but I definitely never. I've never used it. I didn't set out. My goal is to understand how the business can grow in Asia and Asia Pacific, and of course, with a focus on China. And that's my. My first focus. You have a very efficient way of articulating your thoughts. And I've had many influencers on this show, and it would take me sometimes. Remember we talked about earlier how sometimes shows just don't go that well? You know, a lot of those. A lot of those just
don't go that well. I can't get them to produce an original thought. And as a marketeer, the influencers were worthless to my business when I started, and I just tried out where. And so I wasn't trying to put you in the corner. It's like, hey, what's your influencer stuff and what's your status? But I was trying to ascertain if that was. Obviously, that wasn't a goal of yours at this point. It was just that you had a message that you wanted to bring to the table, and that's what
you started to do with the podcast. And so Bottled in. In China, how often are you recording that show? You know, I really wish I could do more. There's quite a lot on my plate at the moment. And as I mentioned, Bottled in China, there's. There's no. We talked about that previously. There's no advertisement. I do it truly out of passion. And the goal really is to just share the stories. And also because our industry is so incredibly diverse, Paul, you know that better than
anybody, that people are outstanding and. And these stories and it's. And also the business side, I love the business side of our industry. I know some people, they just like the wine or they like the stories. They love the history. I Love the business side of what we do because it's. It's people, it's product, it's passion, and it's complex and it's very complex and it's innovative. So,
you know, for bottle in China, we. I used to do quite a lot of episodes, maybe three, four a month, but now I only do once a month. And to be very honest with you, I think it's the right rhythm for now. I'll pick it back up once my exams are finished in a few. But the idea really is that as long as I can bring a voice and bring different perspectives is really the goal.
And I think we've done quite interesting. We've been featured in airlines. We've had the chance to speak about this at various conferences and just excited that we get to do this out of pure passion. And I think you should have a passion, whatever you do in life, even a little side project, because it allows you the chance to develop new skills, but most importantly, to connect with people that you would have never connected with before. Well, we are very fortunate. And delivered. Mine wasn't
delivered. My dad fell in love with wine in 1972 when he started his wine shop. But. And it wasn't meant to be. He was a pharmacist, but I thank him every day. He passed away a couple years ago for. For having brought me to the table on this business. And it was business. I mean, when I bought it in 1988, I wanted to sell bottles. Man, we sold 17 million bottles in 35 years. I just
wanted to sell more. And all of a sudden it clicked in. And this goes to a comment that was made on one of your blogs or one of your articles about you, which was this journey of wine. It is such a multifaceted product that represents nothing else in the world is like wine. Maybe from Anthony Bourdain's quote that we talked about earlier about culture and the landscape of culture, food and cuisine is really what life is about. And wine obviously is part of that. It represents
place, it represents a time. And one woman put it very eloquently to me. She said, what other product can you take halfway around the world, put on the table and say, this is who we are. You can't do that with anything else. And this is when we were right. The journey. But the passion you're talking about is real passion because you cannot possibly get through this industry with the amount of work it takes and the messaging and the storytelling it takes without having a deep
desire to tell the stories. You can't do it. I'm doing two a week, you know, and it. And I don't have a staff anymore. I used to have an engineer. I used to have a digital designer. I also had a social network. I don't have anymore. But I'm not slowing down because I want people to feel what a proper glass of wine does. So that leads to this question, and it's on your thing. Is that my journey of wine?
You have a journey of wine. Do you think that is that actually in itself is the definition of the aristocracy that people feel about wine? Like, we're so passionate and we'd get to the table even last night, I'm talking about this Burgundy, and I'm talking about, you know, or something, and then no one understands what I'm talking about. And I'm. I just kind of hit me when I was writing this, like, maybe that's the separation. We had this journey, and we had this moment
or this epiphany or this wine took a little longer. And that people that don't feel that yet. Is this the difference? Is the aristocracy. Does that make sense? Yes. So, you know, I think now it depends how you always speak. You know, I def. I do feel that with any guest I have or anybody I meet, you do have to change your speech. Right. How we talk about wine and our passion is very different than if we had somebody who's new to wine.
So I guess I would say you do have to tailor what you're going to say and how you present it. I mean, I've done thousands of presentations about wine, from wine basics to masterclasses. And the reality is that you cannot. There is not one size fits all. And it's not about your journey. It actually is about the consumer's journey. So if you're speaking to a consumer, now, this is different, you know, the podcast. But if I am speaking
to a consumer, I try not to talk. You know, I ask them questions, I engage with them, find what's interesting for them. What is their experience? It's not about me at all. You know, I don't think it should. No, I agree with that. So that leads this other thing, which I brought up on a podcast the other day. And I kind of hear me, and I go, wow, that's kind of interesting. And that is. Yeah, wine can be intimidating to a lot of people. And it is, because it's complicated. I mean, real wine
is complicated. If you're. If you're. If you're selling peach flavored, you know, fermented grape juice, that's different. But if you're really selling a glass of wine that has the character that we talk about, it's intimidating because people, they don't want to hear the words. And I think this swirling and sniffing is for the birds. I think talking about cassis and all those things is irrelevant to most people.
But almost invariably, even last night when we had corned beef and cabbage, the conversation comes around to wine. And it's unintimidating at that moment. And I think it's. I think I learned your lesson, which is if you don't say too much and just listen to the people talk and you hear what they're feeling and sensing and what they want to say, then it becomes rather important part of a dinner conversation. There's a French movie out
now. It's about the first restaurant. Have you heard about this? You know. No, no, I forgot the name of it. Now I remember. Anyway, let me know. I'll go try to. I'll go try to find it. It's a great movie. I saw it on the plane, and the head guy says wine is the intellectual part of the meal. And that seems so true. Yeah, for sure. But, you know, I think. I think that there's different people and ways consuming. I always put myself in the shoes
of maybe somebody. I mean, I'm not a big whiskey drinker, but there's some people who are fans and know everything about whiskey and all the different styles and collections, and they. And they have an incredible collection. And so I always feel humbled because at the end of the day, I feel I know nothing. Right. And even for wine, it doesn't matter how long you're in the industry, if you just retain that, then you realize, like, yeah, you're also not
an expert at everything. And so it's just. It's just your perspective, Right? So I guess in my view is, you are correct. Wine is magical. If you can find that, and if you find a group of people who also share that passion, you really evoke an incredible conversation that's able to, as we mentioned, just bring you to a spot that you probably could never have dreamt of. But at the same time, I never, ever feel that,
you know, it's wasted on anybody, because I think wine brings people together. And that, for me, connections is the most important thing. And bringing people together over wine, it adds to that beauty. It's so unique, and it's harder to define, actually. It's actually really hard to define why that happens. I did have a guest on the other day, and you should have her. Well, I don't know if they understand the Chinese market, but she was two masters in theology from very well known
schools and one Ph.D. in theology. And she is, you're waving the banner of the Bible and wine. And I had to have her on because I wanted to articulate some of this stuff. And we had a great conversation and it almost defined, it almost defined why of all the beverages we can have, why wine connects to the soul? I mean, what was her, what was her response? Well, she, basically, because it's from God and that's been built into the process of wine and
how it, how grapes become the conduit of the soil. Because I told her, I said, you know, the scientists can tell us how those happen, how the micronutrients are transferred to the tap roots and they go up and we trellis things that we change the way. They can tell us how that happens. They don't tell us why it happens. Why does it do that? And why do we sit around and share
glasses of wine and relate as humans? And why, why does the evolution of our palate end up in place like Burgundy, where the complexity becomes known? Why do we get bored of over sugared, over extracted fruit wines? Why do we get tired of White Claw? Why do we get tired of some of these wines coming out of Napa Valley and end up with these true expressions of the soil? Anyway, so the conversation was about. That was really interesting. I'll have to go check it out.
I look forward to that. Her name is Gisla. She's German. So you, you're now with a luxury brand. And, and this is important part of the conversation about what we do, because I'm tired of, frankly, some of the lip services I've put on some of my posts of we need to be more innovative in the wine trade, you know, and then it's just people that haven't been through the ringer, they haven't, you know, what I say is it's easy to give advice from the veil of COVID than it is
to use it at the point of attack, right? And we need to be more innovative. We need to do this. And I, I don't think cans are innovation. I don't think tetra packs are innovation. I don't believe that at all. Or there's two types of innovation. Innovation that deals with the consumer and these temporary blips in the marketplace and innovation in the vineyard and at the winery and the brands we're putting out that represent something. But you're in a, you're you're in a luxury brand.
I mean, you only deal with that side of the fence. How is that in China and how is that for your own objectives? Well, I think, as you mentioned, we have brands with incredible stories to tell and quality to back it up. So that's very exciting. And definitely we are also pushing the boundaries in regards to the experience. But at the end of the day, you're correct. It is definitely something we could be proud of, and I think that's very important.
The portfolio. Now, if I understand why, you also have two parts of the question. One is about innovation, the other one's more about selling luxury wines. And I guess the idea around innovation, look, I guess it's twofold, right? Innovation you just spoke about packaging has been there since the early 80s for various types of bag and box and cans, et cetera, and it just never really took off. So it's not innovation. I know there was
a. We talked about that too previously. There is a French article recently in a French magazine all about how French are going to invest because they're trying to help the industry into innovation. But there was no solution. So, you know, innovation is an important part because innovation is at the center of any type of creation. At the same time, the wine industry has always been innovating with so many different products, if it's rtds, if it's different grape varietals
and different styles. So there's always been innovation, but it's not what you think it is. And there's probably a lot more innovation that happens in the vineyards and in the wineries that people just don't even know are part of the wine process. So the other thing is consumers, just as you would buy a laptop or as you would buy any product, that wine glass that is quite heavy with a cork still resonates today. So beyond innovation, doesn't
matter where it is when you are selling luxury goods. And of course, we are very careful with our carbon emissions, et cetera, et cetera. But at the same time, it doesn't replace the fact that a beautiful wine in a glass packaging with a cork, which is, by the way, if you talk about sustainability, cork is the most sustainable product there is, then actually it is something that will be there for quite a long time. And I don't think the alternative packaging is as exciting for every market.
People always assume that the trends that are applicable in the US and UK are somehow applicable here in Asia, and we just don't see that. We don't see the note the low alcohol Movement being very strong. People are not drinking as much alcohol in Asia because business is bad. And wine was very much driven by business and these big, large, I guess, dinners that people were hosting, okay, so that's toned down and then you don't see the whole cans because wine is associated with
a luxury product in general. Whether it's a $10 wine or a $50 wine here in Asia it's still a luxury Western consumption. Right. Just as when you go and have a beautiful, I'm not saying like a Tetley tea, but of course like a high end to our tea coming from, you know, those type of those experiences is, is walking into somebody else's beautiful, you know, culture. And now
China's also making their own wine, which is super exciting. But I guess my point is it's a different way of consumption and so innovation that applies in the US and UK is not necessarily the same innovation here. Now where we do see Asia really innovating comes down to the marketing, the experiences, the route to market. As we said, seamless E commerce, integrating livestream, you know, we don't have so many regulars of I guess regulations that is, sorry where you can't livestream or have to be
careful about, you know, talking about wine on a live stream. You could do that so freely and then sell the product and put it right into your cart as you're watching. So that for me is innovations. How do we make that purchasing even more seamless for everybody? Why are we solving problems when you can't even ship to another state? You know, I feel like that's something that we've got to change probably before we, we jump into
claiming we need to change it all about wine. I mean wine has been there, it's always gone through phases, it's been quite resilient. But I feel like we're always trying to talk about innovation and I personally just don't see it like the idea that NFTs, I feel that came in, that came out. Digitalization, I know is still another big topic, but I just don't see a one size fits all. There's just
options to that. So I guess that was one question and then if I understood Paul, your other question was I guess, I guess fine wines and really how is that working with fine wines? And the idea is we need to, as you mentioned, it's about the human connection and that's where the fine wines really makes a difference in my view to lifestyle, Lifestyle you can market to all fine wine is understanding your consumer and catering personalization connection forging
real, real connections in the industry. And of course, understanding the product and what it can and the qualities of it better than anybody could to be able to be a point of differentiation, understanding the consumer. Wow, what a novel idea. Yeah, well, that's true. I'm not being sarcastic
because I brought it up the other day on a post. You say that actually, Paul, but I would really, really love to know how many journalists and how many CEOs of a company and I think our business, you know, we do it quite well, but not everybody is out shaking hands and meeting customers and asking the questions. Sometimes I think you see a lot of these research or insights and they're coming from people behind a computer who just don't actually do
business. And so there's always what you read and there's always what actually the consumer is how their purchasing habits actually really change. So I like to hear people like yourself who actually deal with the consumer and have had those conversations and then I'll take some insights, but not sitting behind in an office. Bravo. Because, you know, I spent my life selling stuff and I'm talking about copiers and all kinds of things, and it always was about
your client. What your client may have a need that they explain to you. There might be an explicit need to what they're trying to solve, whether it's wine or whatever. And there might be an implied need where that they're not sure that they have a problem yet. And you have to help them understand, you know, where they're at and maybe satisfy the need that you created for them. But it all starts with understanding them and then solving their problem with what you
have in your quiver to do it. And it doesn't always work, but that's really what it is and it's, it's universal. It happens online every day. You. I deliver a message to you that you have no interest in my product because I'm not doing anything for you when it comes to your needs or that my social networking is, is, makes you realize maybe I do have a need and then we solve that need together. But that's what it is. It's always been that and wine's always been consumer
driven. But you have, you're. You have a unique set of brands. In fact, just this morning I made a reservation at Le Le Tuperi for, for dinner when we're there, which is one of the LVMH restaurants in the mall, in the shopping mall. So I'm excited for that. But the other day, I think, I don't know if I told you this the
other day when we spoke, but my son in law asked the question. I was pouring a bottle of Cheval Blanc for my wife's birthday and we had an incredible, incredible day at Cheval Blanc, having lunch in the vineyard with Monsieur Clouet, et cetera. I think I discussed that. But he said to me, is a thousand dollar bottle of wine really 50 times better than a 20 or 20 times better than a $50 bottle of wine? And I say, yeah, you know, you'd. Have a. Yeah, what's your take?
Obviously a very good 50 bottle of wine is very good. And 99.9% of the people would not know the difference, and maybe I wouldn't either. But I said, you just had a bottle of Cheval Blanc regardless. And so that's, that is the difference between a properly positioned brand and you're right, there's a, there's a level of guarantee to what you're tasting and what you're drinking. But, but it's the story. I mean, it's really
the story. And that's why I find your podcast interesting, because you're trying to tell the stories and we are storytellers in this industry. You brought up something interesting. Two things. I do believe that the wine industry, of all industries in the world, is probably the most prone to sustainability. It's not the easiest necessarily, but I think it's probably the most logical natural industry to be sustainable. And somebody put
it the other day, you said a cork is very sustainable. Well, somebody's told me, well, guess what glass is? It's recycled sand. I go, well, that's really interesting. Like, I never thought about it that way, but I do believe that our industry has the most opportunity to be sustainable. But then you, you, you talked about the tactile, this little bit of a tactile presentation of wine where we got the nice crystal glass, depending on what you're drinking. And anybody always asks,
is a glass matter? And I said, well, you pour two wines, one in a nice crystal glass and pour another one in an amber tumbler and, and drink them and you'll, you'll find the tactile difference is important. But it led me to this experiment. I did. You know Jean Charles Boise, right? The Jean Claude, of course. Yes. I was on his podcast as well. He's really, what a passionate individual. Yeah. So he has a collection of glassware from Baccarat and it is
serious stuff. I mean, this stuff is heavy. And yeah, I had, I had my one ship, my wine shop, but then I had Max Riddell on the show and he's like, you know, the thinnest neck and the thinnest bowl and all the, you know, the. And neither one of those is accurate. Neither one of those is better. I mean I totally get John Charles. We, we drank together once in his heavy. They're so heavy and had some Raymond Cabernet in it. And that's got a tactile presentation. And then when you have Riedel's
finest crystal, it's a different presentation. But neither one's better than the other. I thought that is so amazing to me. I just find that fascinating. Well, we had on the podcast we had Dr. Charles Spence, who is one of the leading psychologists, Oxford professor and he actually does consumer insights and purchasing and understanding why how you can increase your environment for either food or purchasing wine purchasing behaviors. Very, very fascinating. One of very
insightful persons. And he did a study on, on wine and it. Does bottle weight matter? And it, it actually does. People did link bottle size and weight to quality of the wine. You saw that very much in China, especially before, let's say 2015, where or even probably now, but especially before 2016, we had a lot of OEM. So this was basically where people would go to Bordeaux and they'd bottle their own wines and bring in
their own chateau. Because you would make much more margin if you could have your own chateau name on it. And nobody knew or could research that the price was actually $10, but you're selling it for 80. And the whole packaging was a beautiful chateau with a French like name and a very heavy bottle and a cork. And if you could do that, you could sell especially when people didn't have much understanding of wine, you could
sell for much more expensive in tier 2, tier 3 cities. So, you know, I do see a lot of people going, you know, like, glass is important and I do think it is, especially for entry level wines. But when you're at the higher end, you know, I think packaging is still very traditional and the consumer who is looking to age wine is still very much in a traditional packaging. Now it doesn't mean that there's no innovation with screw caps and that wines under screw cap can't age. You know, I
do think that there's a lot of science to back that up too. But I'm just saying, you know, the, the experience and willingness to purchase at an expensive level. I think there has been a lot of research that actually proves otherwise. Despite the claims that sustainability we should be moving towards plastic bottles for wine, which I definitely Advocate on a specific level and a specific consumer. Right. Like there should be choices. Go for it. But
when you are. Obviously, that's just my point of view. No, I agree with that. I think there's places for all those things. I was an avid golfer for many, many years, and I used to make me laugh that, that, well, you could take, you know, this plastic bottle of wine on the golf course. I'm like, I'm not taking wine on the golf course. Okay. I'm not taking. I don't drink wine on the golf course. Beer maybe, but not wine. Anyway, is there, is there an issue in China with faux wines? You know,
obviously, Rudy here, he was. I don't think he was Chinese, he was Indonesian, but he was right here down the street. His house where he's making the fake wine was right here. He was watching you when you were doing your. Your dinners and wine clubs and was thinking, all right, cool. That's. That's what I'm going to copy next. You're very close. You know, they would. Are you the. Yeah. So you are the inspiration. Yeah. Is it a
problem in China? Because, you know, I read that people were creating fake yellowtail, you know, at 269 a bottle or something. I just thought, wow, what an amazing industry that is so popular that you would do that. Well, Paul, doesn't it go back to the whole point at the beginning? Brand is key. And people always underestimate that. They think, no, no, no, mine is different. I'm not famous yet, but mine is different. And if you are looking to expand, and I'm not just saying China,
right? Thailand, Indonesia, Malaysia, all these different countries, brand is key, brand is paramount. So, you know, getting your name out there is very important. And it goes back to. Look, if people are going to, I guess, replicate Rossa Retreat, Yellowtail, Penfolds, you know, the basic tiers, then I think it says something about how important brands are. And I think, like, as you mentioned, even to the lower ends, we don't see as much as it, you know, the wine
industry is down. So the people who were doing that were not necessarily wine lovers. They were people who are there for money. Right. So once business goes down, then they're off to something else. You know, it's probably more profitable to do something else like a fake bag. So people are. In China, people aren't. For those people who are doing that type of business, they're not here because they love the wine and they're trying to replicate, you know, yellowtail to get
it to the Mass population. No, it's because they saw a chance to be able to produce something with people who don't really understand and would purchase because of the brand and because they could just have the same logo because the name, maybe people couldn't read English so they just assumed the logo itself was the key. And then you had a completely different name. And then the other side of it, we don't see as much of it because there's a lot of crackdowns, but we do
see a lot more. And government right now is really focused on that. And you'll see even recently there has been a case, USC 137 million. This was out in March and this was actually out in Zhuhai, which is a tax free area, I guess Hub, where you could have your products go there and then shipped into China, but they weren't paying taxes. You saw that as well. 6.7, $6.1 million worth of burgundy and top wines out in Beijing recently as well. Same
issue where they were doing cross e commerce, cross border. And the, the reason they're getting crackdowns is to be honest with you, the government, the government needs money. That's it. They're not paying the taxes on wine and therefore they're getting stopped. Now these are real wines coming in from Hong Kong, coming in from different areas, but because they're not paying their tax,
they're getting stopped. So I think that's what you're seeing right now because it's more about money than it is really about cracking down on products that you won't, you know, you're not going to be able to get money from. You said something very funny actually, you didn't even know it. These people, no, that's not good. These people that, that, that fake wine for the money. Could you pick an industry harder to make money in than wine to go fake wine and hopefully make some money on
it? Because it's hard enough to make a legit stuff. It's such a difficult industry. It was funny we were having. Very true. Yeah, it's tough, it's tough. I, you know, I never, somebody asked me the other day, why did you get into, you know, manufacturing? And I do have a license to make wine, but man, I just, it's just too hard. And branding, like you mentioned something important and we'll get off. We're already at an hour. Branding seems to be like the, the
goal of most wine people. They want their brand to be successful. And you have, you represent major brands in the industry, but it's also the Most difficult thing to do in just about any industry and to get any traction and to get your name out there and particularly in wine. And I tell people, like, if you think you're going to go into the supermarket in Southern California and knock off Josh and Apothec Red and these huge
brands, and this is all another subject we could talk an hour about. But try and get shelf space away from Newman's Own salad dressing, if you have a salad dressing, or Crest toothpaste, if you make a toothpaste, you're up against huge odds to, to get any traction out. And that's one thing about the wine business, that if you're in it, like strictly to make money, you're going to try and build that brand and sell it to one of the big companies. That's all you're trying to do, right? Or
right. You love it, you're romantic about it. You try to make a product that people will love. Yeah, and there's a. There's always something for everybody, you know, but the wine industry is very, very fragmented. What was it? Was it Silicon Valley Bank Report 2023, they mentioned that. Well, they assume that there's around roughly 200,000 different wine brands in the US you can only imagine, you know, how fragmented that is. And so what makes you
stand out? And then the other reality is I really true believe that there's some brands that do inherently well and some that just, just whatever you might throw at it, the just don't stick. They might have great shoes. It just does not stick. And I think sometimes I think there's that chance where, you know, you could really try and it just doesn't work for some brands. And it could be location, price, packaging, but not even beyond that.
Just somehow I don't know what it is. And then, so I guess the idea really is maximize what works and grow what works and focus on what works as opposed to trying to push against the current sometimes. And that's where I think some companies go wrong. They go in every direction and then the brands that actually are, are flowing, they start to devaluate those brands. And they could do that by price cutting or by getting to the wrong market or by being in the wrong position.
And then they lose that one asset, which is their cash, their cash cow. Right. That you want to protect that at all costs, in my view. So brand is important and it's not easy to do. I agree with you. And I don't have the secret sauce, you know, because every single brand's different. And to be honest, with you, if you hear the consumer and you see it, then you maximize it as opposed to trying to push it. There is no formula. If there's a formula, we, you know, everybody would try
it. They all try to copy the next guy. That was successful. Some, I think some beverage company was just bought for $2 billion. It's a flavored sparkling water. Well, how many of those are there? Hundreds, if not thousands of different ones. And this particular one got traction, and then it just sold for 2 billion. And I can't tell you how many people have been on the show that come in here with an idea that really is clearly directed at trying to get market space,
trying to build a brand, sell it off, and retire. I mean, it's obvious at that point. Like, one of them even suggested that Lafitte Rasheed is going to be in a can one day. You know, it's like, well, really? Anyway, so this is fascinating. We're already in an hour, and I know that we need to move on. And we. I think we're going to do this again.
Well, dive more into China on the next one, for sure. I know today's topic was, you know, all different angles, and I loved it because it's true that you bring a real nice sense of comfort in your podcast, where it's just so human. And I. I feel like you've nailed it in the way of connecting. That's why I could see you did sell 17 million bottles. That's over. Is it 35 years? Is that. Is that the exact number you mentioned? It was. Right. But then I have to ask you, I know you've.
You've talked about this before. Paul, I hate to. I hate to turn this out just very. Because I want to know, you know, when you say that, what is your one tip to selling wine? That you think if I could walk away today, it would help me in my. In my career. What's the one tip for selling? Well, that's a really good question. It depends. If you're talking about pre digital marketing and post digital marketing, pre digital marketing, it was all about the
experience. This badge here, I think I showed you last time. Les Ami Devant was about gathering and talking and sharing wine. And if you could, as a subscription model, convey that clubbiness, as my dad and I used to call it, that camaraderie around what you're selecting and that. That earnest attempt to find the best stuff you can find and share with your friends, that camaraderie came through in our presentation. Digital marketing is a different
story. Because you only get seconds to tell them your story. And the loyalty is like this big, like no loyalty in on that side. And so, and somebody told me this yesterday, totally unrelated, and he was talking about my, the podcast. He was also talking about this show that I'm trying to produce. And I, and this is my advice to wineries. When, when they ask, I tell them to stay the course. You know, you just said it. Pick that piece that is functioning for you and that works for you and that
resonates with you and stay the course. Because it's so easy to get fragmented and to bring your attention that you lose sight of your goals. And in the digital marketing world, that means you have to test like, you cannot put out anything that's not a test against something else. Because as Kevin O'Leary told me on the podcast, what works today is not going to work tomorrow. Or what your work, what worked yesterday is not going to work today. And so that's the evolution of digital marketing.
It's too fast. And so loyalty is this thin when it comes to. As it is in the wholesale market too today, but loyal to this thing with the consumer. And if you don't resonate with your story with them, right, Then you can't afford the acquisition cost to find that first customer. Like that's what it comes down to. Yeah, I think just one point on that. That. Because what you. I just want to stop you because can you actually show me your, your badge again? That's the.
Remind me what you just mentioned. That was the. So is becoming. They have a few, right, like the Bordeaux. Then you have some champagne, you have a few groups. And I, I think that I'm seeing that more and more in Asia. Yeah, it's experiential. I'm seeing that. All that experiential innovation. I go to Chateau. Right, but exactly what you mentioned. You said that people want to feel part of a group. You know, why do you learn so much about wine? So that when you're here
at the dinner table, you're the one who's the expert. You bring that in, you're part of that, that niche. I think that, you know, that's interesting what you just mentioned there is getting people in, in this kind of exclusive round and making them, you know, to be honest, feel special. Right. Isn't that why we're all here in general in life? Right? You want to feel, feel connected and. You have, you have brands that can do that. With the Florence Cathayard, you know, she's like,
she was very forthwith with where she's at. And, you know, the winery in Napa is struggling. It's not, it doesn't do that great. They worked very hard to do. You're talking about a accomplished woman who was, you know, French ski team and who, you know, revitalized Chateau Smith Lafitte. You know, she was very
forthcoming and understanding and explaining that. And it does come from finding the client, finding the customer, finding the, the resonating with somebody and making them feel like they're part of the program and they'll be with you for life that way. Inglenook, when I was with Engelnook over the week, last week, two weeks ago, that's what the gist of the conversation was, was we really exist here on our club memberships despite the fact the margins are better because you're
not going through the wholesale, you know, three tier marketing. But that repeat, you don't have to buy that next order. Like, if you're on the Internet and you're just pounding it, you've got every single order you've got to buy and it costs you money. And many of them are unprofitable once you're done processing it. But that next order from your loyal customer doesn't cost you anything. You didn't have to buy that
customer. You have to buy that order. There's no acquisition cost of that order because they just bought from you because it's you. And that's, that's the key. And I think that's branding in general. But that's as much as. I know. That was a great answer. It's true. Yeah. Lots to think about. Well, we'd love to do it again one day and stay in touch. I don't think I'm coming to China soon, but if you're ever near the west coast, we'd love to tilt the glass with you. Same here.
Thank you so much, Paul, for all your great questions and of course, the chance to discuss wine with you and your listeners. So thank you very much for this opportunity. Cheers. Cheers.