I am really interested in understanding wines of origin, understanding what makes a wine uniquely itself. And when I look at the systematic approach, it helps us to understand the kind of structural components of wine, but it doesn't speak at all to the origin of wine or the meaning of the wine. And so if students think that that's the end way of tasting, then you're missing all the joy, all the enthusiasm, all the identity of a wine. Sit back
and grab a glass. It's Wine Talks with Paul K. Hey, welcome to Wine Talks with Paul Kay. And we are in studio today, beautiful Southern California, about to have a conversation with Tanya Morningstar, the CEO of the Cellar Muse. Hey, listen, I just launched a new. I'm gonna launch a new podcast called the Song of America. Song of America is the name of a book written by the famed restaurateur Monsieur George Mardikian in San Francisco. And it's his. The book is about his
track to America and his success as a restaurant tour. I took the name, I was able to get permission from the sun, and I created a podcast around stories of immigration that turned into social, financial, or political success. And so the first episode is the Agonian Brothers Crazy stories about early days of racing in America, as well as immigration to the United States by the grandfather. So have a listen to that. Hey, give me a good review.
If you don't like it, then don't review it at all. Right? And subscribe, please, but not while we're here. We tried this once before with Tanya Morningstar, and complete failure on the technical side. So we're back in studio together. Welcome to the show. Thank you. You know, I asked you, what do you call yourself? And I said, CEO, and you go, yeah, that sounds pretty good. So. But you are. You.
You just got done telling me about your certification and your teaching of champagne to professionals and to just dovetail off of that, because this is an interesting part of our industry right now. Here. You are certified to teach certain aspects or maybe the entire history of champagne to professionals. What does that mean? What does that mean to professionals? What do you call a professional? Well, I guess I'm see how I'm going to answer that question. So essentially,
the. The wine boards of. Of the world have, you know, marketing money that they want to invest in training people who work with their wines. And so in the case we were discussing the champagne specialist certification and some of the other, I was talking about a special sensory workshop that I developed to decode the winemaking process of champagne. And also, as I said it, to listen for the different players in the symphony, these are things that
wine boards support. So, for example, they want us to interact with sommelier journalists, importers, salespeople, and help them to understand their wines better so that they can represent them better. So in those cases, sometimes wine boards like the Comite Champagne will sponsor and support curriculums that, for example, that I
produce, like the Sensory Workshop. And then I can invite people in those categories or wine students who are pursuing higher level certifications and hopes to enter into the industry and offer it for, you know, virtually free. Now, the Champagne specialist course is a paid course, but the Commiteier Champagne developed it and, you know, brought me and a couple of other educators out there to train, to train to teach it. So. Well, let me ask this. This is this
balancing act that we're in because. And I think it's. I think generationally, it just happens all the time. And, you know, the. The language of wine was different for Michael Broadbent and Harry Waugh than it was in my father, than it was for you and I, and maybe different for the future generations. Yeah, but there's this whole movement socially about, you know. Well,
I don't ever believe in demystifying wine. I don't believe in the idea of simplifying wine because it's not simple and it's just if you want to know more, learn more. Right, Exactly. But so the idea of training professionals on the sensory perception of champagne and the, you know, I love this concept of picking the instruments out of the symphony. It's really great analogy. Does that fly in the face of what this generation that's coming in now thinks
wine should be accessible to everybody and all. Whatever that. Whatever those things mean. Innovation, Whatever that means in the wine trade. Is it? Yeah, I don't think those things are incongruent at all. In fact, it's really, really important to me to teach what you were saying about making things specific and accessible and not oversimplifying to me, I like kind of to equate it to falling in love. Specializing your previous knowledge
may or may not be useful. Yeah. Right. You really need to show up with is your curiosity and your willingness to. Your openness to discovering about that subject. Right. And through doing that, I always say you can specialize before you generalize if you are willing to be deeply curious and engage your. Your love. So I do feel that teaching complex subjects is not exclusionary. And the way that I do it, I think I have kind of a special approach to. That seems
to be working and makes people feel really welcome. And so even when I'm teaching courses that are designed for high level speciality or designed really to teach people who are already in the wine trade, of course there are a lot of enthusiasts that end up in those spaces and I think that it's, and I have a way of welcoming them also. I really, really feel that it's important to me that everybody
feels ready to show up as they are. And that means even when we're talking about complex subjects like champagne, the more that we can not oversimplify but demystify and come together, the more people can bring their authentic selves into that moment. And when that's invited, I think that everybody really benefits and people don't feel like they can approach
really complex subjects. So to me, I don't really teach beginners, but as long as you've got kind of a basic understanding of, of Vinny Vidi as we call it, you know, winemaking and analogy on a, on a base level that allows you to enter into a certain subject, we can fly pretty high together. The consumer side of this, I mean, isn't this the allure of what wine is? And I, and I'm trying to get this, you know, my position on this, which is yes,
wine is consumer oriented, we need consumers. But the allure of wine, the study of wine, the character of wine, the reason we, you know, crave a particular type of wine at dinner time is in itself the complexity and the story and, and that automatically leads you, if you're interested, to learn more about soil if you want, or trellising or the things that go
into changing the, the expression of a wine. So I, I'm just having a hard time with what the general public perception of what wine is and where it needs to go versus the actuality of it, which hasn't changed for 12,000 years. It is still the same product. Right? I mean, hopefully those days, but it's so on the consumer side, how do you, what's, how are you received with this kind of teaching when you do this? Well, I
think great. I mean to. One of the things is, you know, I've been in the industry for a lot of years and last time we did this we introduced me a little bit more but. And mentioned that I'm also a historian and taught wine history at college level for a decade and also have an online wine history that I course that I created that people can come to and find out about, just to
mention that. But as far as consumers in the classroom, all that to say that over the last 30 years, I have seen such a wonderful transformation in our industry from gatekeeping of knowledge on the part of, you know, snooty psalms to a world where consumers are savvy and self directed and professionals are expected to be trusted advisors and guides, as opposed to some kind of gods that have some information or some way of
accessing the pleasure of wine that nobody else can touch. And I love that it expects more professionals because consumers are more deeply interested. And that also coincides with the rise of Eno tourism and this desire for people to have more intimate experiences with wine, which I love. So I hope that kind of answers your question, that I think that the enthusiast is. Oh, is. Has a really
different place in the world than they had before. I think that serious enthusiasts 30 years ago that were learning about wine were usually wealthy people who had deep cellars and were more part of this elite access to wine. And I love that that's really, really changing. It's an important part of my work. You know, it's an interesting thought. You know, it's. It is. I suppose
my dad got into. He was business, I mean, then he fell in love with it once, you know, he's a pharmacist by trade, counting pills, and all of a sudden there's a liquor store became part of his. His chain, a small chain he had. And wow, this was really fun. People. People aren't sick when they come in and complain. They come in and they go, hey,
I'm looking for, you know, something really fun to do. Yeah. And so he started spending more time over there and he fell in love with the product and was quite knowledgeable and traveled the world and went to his classes. But I suppose you're right. I suppose we're casting a larger net to have people be interested in the product. And I have this romantic view that all generations come around at some point to have a curiosity about what it is, but it still doesn't answer the question, you
know, is it simplifiable? And I don't. I don't believe that it is. But how much. How important is the story? You know, you talk about history and I had a conversation, you know, Chad Luddington, you know who he is? He's a. I think he's a master of wine. Maybe he's not. But anyway, he. I had a conversation yesterday and he was correcting himself, one of these historians, where he says, you know, in 1375. No, I'm sorry, 1350, you know,
and I'm like, wow, I don't know. Sure. That I'm that granular with my wine history. I wonder if that sort of intimidates people into the subject versus just trying to learn why, you know, they, they relate to one glass rather than another. I think that this is an interesting subject to kind of weave into what we were talking about before, what people, the state of our industry, what, how our enthusiasm as professionals or consumers or wherever we're at in that continuum, why, why the story
matters now maybe more than ever. And I was thinking as you were talking about how the rise of this savvy, curious, loving, if you will, consumer, right? If we're talking about curiosity being about love, coincides with, of course, our deepening access to information, right? The great equalizer of the Internet, you know, and, and technology. But also one of the things that that access has brought us as humans is a fracturization of our mentality, right? We're a million
places at once. We're expected to be tracking all kinds of information and events that are happening in faraway places. And I just don't think that our nervous systems as a species are developing fast enough to take all of this. So we're anxious, we're all exhibiting tension issues. And this good thought. And so the wine, curiosity, wine is a hobby, can heal this mentality because it's a whole body experience. When we are engaging in the study of wine and the exploration of wine,
we're using everything about ourselves. We're using our physicality, all of our senses, our front and back of our brain, right? The primitive memory part that's associating with, with our sense of smell and taste, our analytical aspect, our, you know, our social personalities, where it's really healthy behavior and it drops people into one place and time. And I think it's, I think this is why more people, young, young people are interested in this specificity. I think they're drinking less,
they're engaging differently. And I think that this, that the story connects to this ability for us to be present with other people. And in a global world, that means other people in a vineyard on the other side of the world, maybe that we'll never meet, but we're still in one place, in one time, one terroir that made that wine, one culture, one person, one or a team of people. And here we are choosing it in our classroom or at our table to share with real
people that are in front of us. And that to me is really great. And this kind of enthusiasm has a reciprocal effect because we are in conversation with the people and traditions who make wine Whether we ever talk to them simply by putting that wine into our bodies. That the smaller producers, the smaller appellations have never been
such an exciting time to love wine. Because when people are interested in those stories and purchase those lesser known wines or appellations, the people who make them have financial incentive to elaborate better the truth of how to make the best wine in that place. And so I think there's a lot more out there to discover. For example, I'm, you know, one of my expertises is in Bourgogne wines. A subject that cannot be simplified. That,
you know, that is endless. Right. And, and I really believe that you do not have to be a wealthy collector to love Bourgogne wines and to engage in the value system of terroir that, that Bourgogne wines has to offer, which is one place, one time, one, you know, the name of the vineyard, the Klima is the name of the wine. Right. That place. And so I think, you know, ranging from if you're in the Macon, you know, for example, you can have that experience of understanding that specificity
for 25 bucks. You know, that's true. And, and some of those wines are now getting good enough so that they're, you can put them away for a little while and so that people who are not wildly wealthy can start to sell their things for a few years and see how they become more interesting. So that's. Stop it there for a second. That's a really good point. Particularly since the, the evolution of Bon wines,
particularly entry level. And I think most of the consumers that go to the supermarket, you know, the entry level begonia wines that are, there are just not very good representations of what they could be at a price that's very palatable. I know we're talking about growing crew vineyards. You know, you can get, so you can get a nice burn rouge if you go to the right maker.
But that's. Let me, let me back that up a little bit. Yeah, I think, was it Paul Meyer who tried to buy a property there and, and got this 12th century rule thrown at him and fell out of escrow. But his comment was basically all Enophi. Wine and collectors end up in Burgundy because of this complexity and this idea of terroir is so specific and important. Yeah, but I'm going to go back to the consumer for a
second. You said something really interesting. The enthusiasm, particularly from an educator like you, who gets in front of a, a, a group and lights up. And whether it's a consumer group or a professional group, you can elude this. And I had to, I had to say something. There's. I think I mentioned before we started that I'm back on the little league field as the old guy, the grandpa, and I'm working with 7 year olds.
And it hit me that the reason I'm successful there, and I say that tongue in cheek is because I am enthusiastic about it. I do love it. And why I would go out on my Saturday afternoon as a 66 year old on Tuesday night and Saturday afternoon and play baseball with a bunch of 7 year olds that have a hard time even understanding the game. And what they respond to is the enthusiasm I have because it's such a great game and I have so much fun playing it and
teaching it. And I think that's really important on your side to stimulate, you know, the intellectual thought process of, of learning about wine. Because it is exciting. You can be. Or it can be completely droll and blah. Not the French word droll meaning funny. But yeah, the, the English version. Yeah. How do you do that? How are you instilling this enthusiasm is just passion, natural. Well, I love the word enthusiasm. It's a, it's a beautiful word. And I think that first of all, being
accessible myself is important. I, I want to say, for example, I, I do a lot of mentorship. I love to mentor people in their wine path, professional and personal, to enjoying more and finding what their way towards their, their goals with wine. And I had a student who went through the WSET diploma with me and they were starting to teach and they were feeling nervous about showing up in a classroom having really smart people ask really hard questions that they might not know the
answer to. And I said, listen, you know very well that none of us know the answers to every question. And so every teacher at the beginning goes through this anxiety that they're not going to be able to perform perfectly like you were saying, you know, get the exact right dates. And I said, when you don't know something in front of a classroom, it's this wonderful opportunity to make everybody else
realize that you're human, that they're smart. Because in the room maybe somebody knows the answer or maybe collectively you can discover it. And so actually showing ourselves as, as real as teachers and engaging in the, in, in the value of our students I think really brings people out of a lot of the anxiety that historically is centered around
wine, around wine generally, you know, that we're some. The person next to us knows more than us and is a better taster and all of this kind of B.S. you know, instead of kind of being open, curious and sharing our flaws and our, and our joyous, you know, discoveries. So I think that's really a part of it is seeing, is seeing myself as, as imperfect as an opportunity and always. Wine in a wine classroom is full of really smart people. You know, there are people,
my students have PhDs. They have, you know, diverse educations in a multitude of subjects. They bring so much to the exploration of the sub. Of the subject that we're on hand. Even if I am the expert, I learned so much from them. So I think that attitude is really, really key to making people feel welcome and bringing people into their best exploration of a subject together. I think you're
right. I think that does break down the barriers that you have a personal concern with their path to, to understand this and that, that, that tends to loosen up the environment a little bit. And you're, I think this, I hate to say it, I mean it works with 7 year olds and why wouldn't it work with adults? You just, you have a true compassion for their, for their outlook and their concern of what they're doing. How important do you think
that is? You said something interesting. You said about, you know, the tasting and you know, there's some people that can sit in front of a row of wines, all cabernets from the same vintage, and talk about the, the, the appellation. Possibly, I, I possibly could do that. I mean I tasted a lot of wines, 100, 000 wines in my career. And I, but I have certain, you know, my outlook leading to this question. My outlook when I tasted those wines wasn't to do that. Yeah, I didn't
blind taste. I sat there every Tuesday from 9 to 2 and tasted wines. But my job was to find the best value. So my skill set in this industry is tasting a wine and being able to position it from a price standpoint where it belongs, not, not necessarily where it's being sold at, but you know, where it would belong based on price, value, quality. Yes. I can dissect the wine. I can tell you about the structure. I can do all those things, but not everybody, not everybody can do that. Yeah, but
many people can blind taste much better than I can. And I'm wondering where you think your skill set is in this industry of education and then how important do you think it really is to be able to say, well, I sense raspberries and blackberries and cocoa and you know, all those things and, and confuse people. Like, I love this question. And I think about it a lot, in fact, because I have a kind of. I have
my own way of teaching tasting. I've taught all W set levels and also, you know, practice both systematic and deductive approaches and. And everything else. So I. I have had to teach lots of different tasting rationales in my experience as an educator. But I found myself a few years back realizing that I had allowed the propaganda to enter my head that from the movie Psalm, for example, you know, that these mostly guys are these gods with special skills that none of us have, including me, you
know, and it's like. And that was. So I guess I want to kind of. I joined a group of. Of a tasting group of Psalm, deductive approach. And first of all, I realized that there was. How do I want to say this? I was so curious at this stage of my life how I still had something in my mind telling me that I couldn't do that. And it's really just, you know, it's not a trick, in fact, and I'm going to explain that. I don't want to get off too off track
here. For me, I am really interested in understanding wines of origin, understanding what makes a wine uniquely itself. And so when I'm thinking about tasting rationales, that is what I am curious about, which is why I do teach tasting a little bit differently. And when I look at the systematic approach, the W said approach, for example, it helps us to understand the kind of structural components of wine, but it doesn't speak at all
to the origin of wine or the meaning of the wine. And so if students think that that's the end way of tasting, then you're missing all the joy, all the enthusiasm, all the identity of a wine. All. Many of the greatest wines in the world, for example, are medium, medium plus, medium, medium plus. If you go to Bourgogne, all the greatest wines of Bourgogne, they're going to be medium, medium plus all along the line. How interesting is that? Not. Does it point to anything
meaningful? No. Right. And so that is a stepping stone. Being able to understand the structural components of wine to being able to understand wine. They're not the same thing. And the deductive approach or the Psalm approach ends up looking a little mysterious, but it essentially gets a little bit more towards identity, but in a very technical kind of way that if you learn how to execute it and you also understand wines of origin, you can actually blind taste. And it's not that
hard, in fact. And I loved exploring, demystifying that process as well. And then in the end, what I'm Interested in is transparently tasting for origin. So that means really understanding what the impacts of the different, of the various aspects of terroir are on the sensory experience. So, for example, elevation, soil type, climate, proximity to bodies of water, wind, you know, all of these things. And then how people respond to those environmental issues are essentially
what terroir is. And so if we're really exploring one place, right, this is how I say specialized education is about, you know, is about intimacy, right? You're looking at one place, one wine, right, and understanding all of these elements and then translating them to the actual sensory experience so that people can start to taste and be like, oh, the quality of the acidity is like this. And I understand, you know, I know exactly where I am. That's probably not an easy thing for people to
grasp onto originally. So I don't think that this is actually hard, you know, and that's. And I. And so there's a way that I like to approach this kind of teaching that is really about. About understanding the place itself. And I think once you just, you can go through that exploration, people start. It starts to make sense.
If you, if you have a holistic picture in your teaching, instead of didactically going through, you know, some kind of linear or abstracted or separated, you know, exploration of the elements of what make a wine itself. If you look at it as a whole picture, people can engage with it, imagine it, and then the. And then it makes sense why wine tastes the way it is. Which is why I love to teach through. Through immersion. So I do lead immersive educational experiences in France,
Italy and California. I've got one coming up in Sonoma. I'll be doing one in Champagne in May, Borgonia in September, around Lake Garda, also in October. And when I do that, it's not just taking people touring. I curate highly. The wineries we go to are not necessarily the most prestigious, but they are. Sometimes they are. Sometimes they're places that aren't open to the public that'll receive me and have that access. Definitely want to provide people with access, but curate the most
complete learning experience of that place. Why do they come to you over all the millions of. Let's jump on that concept of vino tray Euro. Would you call it travel or travel? Because, and I'm going to say it with this premise, I do believe, and I, and I think has always been this way. It's just now becoming more obvious and more important that experiential changes, experiential episodes are what drive wine and what Keep people loyal to a brand. You
know, they're. They're, they're going to reflect every time they see this. And, you know, things are happening in France in particular, where. Where wine tourism is becoming actually a thing. It never was. You couldn't go to a tasting room in Bordeaux until recently. Really? Yeah. And so why do they choose Tanya Morningstar's program over, you know, what was the name of the famous travel company in the 70s English group? Anyway? Why. Why do they do that? Well, I think that
there's a lot of reasons. First of all, I only lead tours in places where I have really special access, so where I have deep relationships with the people who are culture makers and. Or preserving cultural heritage through their work. And I'm able to get those people to meet with us. For example, in Borgonia, we visit, you know, some places that don't receive
guests. And in Champagne, that's also going to be the case that some places that don't receive guests will receive my students enthusiastically and give us a lot of time with the cellar master or the family. And, oh, in Borgonia, for example, the map maker Sylvan Pizzio had lunch with us, you know, and the president of the. Of the, you know, partnership with UNESCO for the preservation of the Klima, you know, invited us to his winery in Maurice St. Denis, and we tasted all the Klima. I like
to do things. We went to La Flevre and met with Olivier and tasted all the wines. And then I filled my backpack with single Klima wines, and everyone took their glasses, and we walked from Pluni Morochet through Meursault, stopping in the Klima and tasting the wine. And then you really understand. You know, you've met the winemaker, you've seen the winery, but then we're walking through the vineyards, touching the soil, looking at the slope, tasting this one,
understanding it, then moving on to the next. We know why they're different. And so. Let me stop you there. How do. How do. I mean, this is a very extraordinary trip. I mean, you're probably half of the words not understood by most people. So how do we get this to. To the consumer who's at home, you know, only sees that the supermarket, the entry level, Burgones, or Vuv Clicot
for that matter. I gotta tell you my story. He. You obviously speak French to some extent, so there's a. I'm not gonna say who it is, but somebody named their spa in Napa Rendezvous Rendezvous. And I'm like, why would you do that? Since vuv means widow. Yeah. Yeah, that's funny. Anyway, so, yeah, I do speak French and Italian, and I think that's one of the things is that I don't take people places where I don't have intimate relationships
with that I can share. Because all the people who travel with me, they are savvy travelers, they're super smart, they can organize their own trips, and they do, but this is different. Right. And so then your next question, how do we get that to the consumer. Make people feel that energy that you have, but they can't jump on a plane and go to Bourgogne or Champagne? Yeah, not everybody. I do have some projects. They're a little top secret, but I have a project to address this home experience for
enthusiasts that can't get on a plane. But you'll have to wait for that and follow me. But I do think that teaching in the classroom, the way that I like to teach, almost gives people a relief, as if they've taken a little adventure and in the way that I teach holistically. But I think that this experience, a lot of people don't need. They don't want necessarily to know all of these things. And so when you have. When you have professionals who have had these experiences,
they're the ones who. Who share that next, next step. There are enthusiasts who do want to take these trips, who are. Who want to deeply understand the landscape and the culture and how those things are and history and how they're tied in together. But not everybody can afford that or is ready for that. They may want to have that glass of wine and they want to understand something about it that brings them into the present moment,
but they don't need everything. And so that's why training professionals, or sometimes guiding journalists or writers, which is another thing that I do, is so important because. Because then we bring home that. That whole experience, that deep understanding, that intimacy, and we can share it easily
with a person. Even if we have an exchange of just a couple sentences, when that wine gets put into their hand, those are the appropriate sentences that spread spark that person's imagination so that they enjoy more. So there's a lot of levels of what we want to know, what we need to know to enjoy wine most fully. And I think there's a couple different kinds of wine. There's engineered wines that are delicious but don't tell a story of place
and then which. That's fine. I don't. Not very interested in those myself. But formula wines, we call them. Yeah, but they could be delicious. You know, and. And then there's wines of origin. And with wines of origin, something about that connection is important, but it doesn't have. Nobody wants the Psalm who's like, telling you the whole story, and you're like, okay, okay. I really didn't need to, you know, I
don't need to know all those things. But sometimes just giving a little bit of truth and bringing people into the specific moment is all that's required. Yesterday, I had a call with a doctor's group. You're probably aware of some of these. You know, the concierge medicine is becoming very popular, and this is sort of a holistic thing. And I really wanted to hear about it because I take that very seriously. Yeah. And when he saw the studio here in the background, first he says,
I'm. I used to be a sound engineer, so he was really interested in what I was doing. And second, he says, you're in wine. He goes, I have this. And I found this very refreshing, and I don't hear it very often. And I have to tell my friends when we go to dinner, because we like to bring our own bottles, as you probably do. But I tell them, if we're going to go to Italian restaurant, don't. Do not bring, you know, duckhorn or silver oak or whatever,
you know, basic Napa stuff. I said, we need to bring the wines of the origin of the. Of the food, and let's start sort of understanding that. And so this guy voluntarily said, look, I go to a restaurant, and if I'm in an Italian place, I ask for the list and I want the Psalms recommendation for the food that we're eating from Italy. Yeah. And, you know, and then. Then he quoted,
what, you know, grows together, goes together. And I think that's a. That was such a refreshing start of a conversation for somebody that actually is seeking. And the point I was going to make was I thought by the time we had done chatting about his last experience at the Italian restaurant, that he had been to Barolo, he was talking about it as if, you know, he was walking the vineyards of the famed hill, you know, And I'm like, well, I was just there and blah, blah, blah. He goes, no,
I've never been. And so his. His experience, his knowledge of Barolo had strictly come from eating at Italian restaurants, talking to the Somme, and drinking the wines of the region. And I go, wow, that's really powerful way to do it and not have to leave. You could do it at home, too, as well. But if you're disciplined enough to think that way. It's such a relief. It's why sometimes my. I remember one day I
was studying, and my. My kids came into the. My. When my son came into the room, and he was like, why are you so happy? And I was like, I've just been, like, spent two hours in Provence in my mind, you know, and that makes me really happy, you know. So I think that, yes, we're talking about engaging our imagination, you know, through multisensory modalities. And that can be through tasting, reading, looking at maps, watching, you know, films or drone
footage, which is incredible. Some regions have great drone footage. But I think that you said something that I wanted to pick up on, which was about your friend and what goes together, grows together. And although I think there's two ways to kind of approach that. One of the one way is to say another thing that I love. For example, thinking about champagne and how champagne is consumed all over the world, how it's important to all of us, right?
For our best moments, we want to have champagne, even when there's other delicious wines that we could have that opening up to all of the cuisines that champagne can serve and all of the cultural sensory perspectives that the tasters and drinkers have. Cultural, sensory, right. And this brings us back to the idea of language and how we talk about wine.
Because if we're going from a systematic or deductive or this formulaic tasting approach usually designed by British people, then it excludes huge, everybody else in the world with all their different smell, taste, and cultural experiences, right? So I love this idea of opening up wine to be an international ambassador of love and peace, essentially, you know, in a way, because we're sharing something with people from another part of the world. And then the other thing is to, you know, if you're
thinking, what goes together, grows together. So thinking outside the box and welcoming other cultures into your sensory experience, right into that in a partnership is one thing. And then what goes together, grows together, falls into something that is really kind of my ballywick, which is what I was thinking about, you know, do you want to be called CEO? And essentially, I want to be called a preserver of cultural heritage
because. Wow. I feel that what I do, I deeply invest in understanding why and how something is the way that it is. I research and become allies with the people who are progressing traditions, creating traditions, preserving traditions. I've worked with
UNESCO, as I mentioned. And so when we think about what goes together, grows together, it is true that we could pair wines in a lot of different ways, but when you take that perspective, and this is why I teach a lot through food as well and highly curate those experiences. We're starting to understand how and why a wine is the way that it is, based on the other agricultural and cultural influences that co developed with the.
With the identity of that wine as well. And so traveling through food and wine is in our imagination, whether it's in a restaurant or at home, really can bring us such an intimate experience as you described, that you could think someone had been there a bunch of times. That's what happened. Yeah. It's beautiful. It's an interesting thought. I just. It just hit me when I started studying
French. My wife was 15 years now, she's been doing this charity for an Armenian group, and she raised a lot of money for doing this big event. My house gets consumed by women for like three weeks. And so I thought, you know, this is like the 15th year. I said, you know, I can't deal with this anymore. So I'm just going to go in the room, I'm going to study French. My dad spoke French.
I want to learn French. Yeah. And I started with the applications, you know, like Rosetta Stone and there's a couple other fluens, and. And I realized it's impossible. I don't care how smart you are, you. You cannot learn a language through one of those applications because it has nothing to do with the culture. It has nothing to do with understanding Napoleon. And Josephine has nothing to do with understanding Josephine
Baker doesn't have anything to do with that. It's just this rote system that they think, you know, attacks your brain cells in a better way than the other guys. And until you decide that you're going to go to France or read about French or read about the revolution or read about whatever you want to read about. But understand the culture through the cultural heritage is when you start to grasp the concept of the language. Yeah. And the food and the wine.
And I, I tell the story many times, but my mom was an incredible cook, and she traveled the world as part of, you know, her. The wine business as well. And it had been probably 50 years since I had smelled this quiche that she used to make, and it was in Paris. And my wife looked at me to when. When the food was delivered, and she goes, what's wrong with you? Because he's like, my face had just changed. And I said, I haven't smelled this for
50 years. And I wanted to make this exact quiche. And that's how memorable wine can be for an experience. Food Obviously. And then cultural understanding is so critical to that. And I think that's a really great. Approach that you're taking to when you open yourself up. I'm always the one crying over my food or laughing uncontrollably or, you know, I think food is very emotional, and I'm not afraid to
open myself to it because that's the joy. I do love to help encourage people to enjoy their food more. But on another subject of language, I'm always trying to come up with different learning modalities that can help people approach this level of intimacy. Because that's where real joy lies, right? Is knowing something closely. So I've come up with a new kind of workshop that I. I'm gonna be developing this year and offering, which is a integrative language,
Food and wine Immersive day. So, for example, it's a way of learning French and Italian and Spanish so that we'll have, like, classroom time in the morning to learn actual vocabulary and grammar around wine and food.
Then a long, long lunch that's curated where people are allowed to speak English, but that will be, you know, kind of integrating more vocabulary and language around the ingredients and service and all these things, but not in a. In a oppressive kind of way with little games, like, you know, having little cards that you can, you know, identify which one is the mushroom, you know. Or which is
great. And then in the afternoon, kind of return to the classroom, but to flow through tastings, through eating. And in partnership with, you know, I speak these languages, but in partnership with people who are actually language teachers so that
we can come together. And then at the end of the day, it can either just inspire people to enrich their language studies that they're engaged in so that they can travel, for example, or so that they can read better about wine and understand the, you know, the terms that are always in French, for example, are always in Italian. I think that's a great approach. Alliance Francaise does that. Basically, the events, you do them, but you're going to curate them yourself and.
And produce it. I think that's just the way to do it. And I. And I'm making that analogy because wine would. A person's understanding of wine would benefit greatly also from understanding the culture. Like, for instance. And we're almost out of time here. But I. I'm a little jealous of the French protection of their regions for not only wine, but cheese and butter. And it was really interesting to me because when I bring
that up with the French, just. Actually, I was talking to Florence Catiard the other day, they. They also look at the new world, the Napa side of things, like, hey, we can go to Napa, do whatever we want, which is what they did. Plant whatever we want. We can decide what we want to grow. We can make whatever we want to. We don't have to, you know, play by any rules. And I go, what? You know, the grass is always greener, I guess, when it comes to these kinds of things. But I think as Americans
and as. As. As culturally, I'm not gonna say restricted. The American culture is because it's founded on freedom, but, you know, we don't seek those things. And here you are providing an opportunity for somebody that wants to learn those
here, not having to travel. I think it's a great idea. Well, I do like to point out, historically speaking, that, you know, for example, about the new world, we as Americans often have this rigid idea that the old world is, you know, this historically rich, fixed place with, you know, culture that never changes, you know, and that the new world is all open. And actually, these things are not
exactly true, and I have a lot to say about that. But one good example in Napa is that Cabernet Sauvignon was only first mentioned in the early mid-1700s. It's not a. It's not an ancient grape variety. Right. And so. So it's less than 100 years later, it appears in Napa. That's a profoundly historic. Yeah, it was mission, I think, partnership.
That we have with Cabernet Sauvignon. So, you know, for example, when I take people to Napa and Sonoma and we visit the axis of KAB and, you know, these areas in Napa and Sonoma and potentially Lake county, you know, this is also a deeply rich history that can be explored. And I think it's interesting to look at ourselves and look at the old world differently, to look at the old world and recognize the innovation, tradition. Emile Paino, the kind of probably the very first wine consultant, said,
tradition is experimentation that worked. And so there is no preserving tradition without being experimental and open. Right, right. And so traditions will die if you do not innovate them. And so I really like to open my mind to what that means as a American or, you know, for American wines and our traditions, which are real and for the old world, too. So I think. Is that on your website, tradition is. Is experimentation, Network, maybe. Yeah, I love to quote that.
I feel like I've heard it, and I thought, well, I wouldn't have heard it otherwise. You know, it's Interesting, because when I was talking to Florence, I looked up Smith Lafitte and it had been founded like in 1379 or something like that. And here they bought the Louis Martini property, which was founded in, you know, 1885 or something. I thought, wow, there's a 500 year difference between the founding of their two wineries. But just as important culturally for them to create this
tradition in. So I guess it can start any time. We are out of time. Okay. And we have plenty more to talk about. Yeah, we do. Fascinating conversation. And it's so inspiring to hear the things you're attacking to. To move the needle for the industry, for the consumer. It must light you up when you have somebody that you watch the light go on and go, wait a minute. It's the best. That's why I. That's what it's all about, actually, especially. And the reason. I'll just finish. But when I
first led one of these wine tours, I kind of fell into it. And at the end of the week, more than one person in the group said it was the best week of their life. And this was the first time I'd ever done anything like this. And I thought, well, that's a vocation then. I mean, if I can give somebody that kind of joy and pleasure, then I. I must move towards that because, you know it. What's better in life than to. That's excellent for others to live more richly.
Thanks for the time today. And we will definitely reconvene. Okay. We'll do.