Carson Leno Fallon. Now it's wine talks with Paul K. Hey, welcome to wine talks with Paul K. And we are in studio today, about to have a conversation way out in Harlem with Wanda man. Introductions in just a moment. Wine talks, of course, available on iHeartRadio, Pandora, Spotify, wherever you hang out for podcasting and have a listen to claude
Roquette. He has lived and worked on the greatest vineyards and areas of wine in France, but landed in Napa Valley working for the Smith Haute Lafitte Bordeaux house at a winery called Cathiard. The wines are fabulous wines, and we talk about the French coming to America and using the new world, let's call it the new world, to make wine. You start to see a great difference in not the quality, but the depth of the wines and the
complexity here about that as well. I just released an episode with Frederick J. Ryan, the CEO of the Reagan foundation, but more importantly, author of the book White House a History, the preeminent authority in America on what was poured when in the White House. And all the history that goes with it is really quite interesting. Probably due for a second episode just to catch up on all things at the White House. But now, while we're here, we're here to talk about wine with Wanda
man. Wanda is the east coast editor of the famed trade magazine Psalm Journal, as well as the tasting panel. Welcome to the show. Thank you for the invitation, Paul. Happy to be here. Well, I've been watching you online. I guess that's what we do these days, right? Yeah, that's true all the way. We watch everyone online. And you've been contributing to the wine space for quite a long time. And you grew up in New York? I'm a native New Yorker. I was born on this island
of Manhattan, so this is my hometown. Wow. There can't be that many of you around. You know, people always say that. I guess it doesn't seem that there are, but I'm like, you know, we have all these hospitals and babies are being born in New York every day. But it is you're more likely to encounter. I'm just thinking in terms of the wine community in New York. There's a handful of us that I can think of that were born in Manhattan. But, you know, New York is where people come
to make their dreams come true. Right? So not everyone's born here, but, you know, we're here. We're here. No, that is interesting. Part of New York is that it does have that sort of moniker that whether you're coming from Europe or whether you're coming from in America to land in New York to take your shot because there's such a hotbed of not only food and wine, but entertainment and all the rest of industry. Anything you want to do, New York has it. You know, I'm not sure if
we're still the city that never sleeps. I think since lockdown, people have gotten a little groggier. But definitely it is a place where you can invent, reinvent, rejuvenate, you know, pursue that dream, that passion. So it's nice to know that we still have that going for us. Well, we miss it. Like I told you, my daughter lived in Harlem as a boulanger for a restaurant that earned a Michelin star. And now she's in Potsdam. You ever heard of Potsdam,
Sarah? Where is that exactly? Well, it's not the edge of the world, but you can see it from there. It's as far north in New York as you can get. Okay. Okay. It's quite a. Quite different than Manhattan, actually. I would think so. But you ended up in college in California. Actually, just down the road from where I'm at today. How did that happen? Yes, I went to Pomona College. I'm a proud sage hen. That's our odd little mascot. How did
that happen? Yes, I had no family in California. I'd never even really been to California until I visited Pomona the year that I was graduating from college, Pomona became a very hot school. So I actually went to high school in Massachusetts. I went to boarding school. And that year a lot of us applied to Pomona. I think it really started moving up the rankings in that time. And I flew out to visit in the deep depth of winter in New England. And I went to sunny Inland Empire and I said, oh,
it's a good school. That's a bonus. I really like this weather. Yeah. I have to say, the sunshine played a major decision. But I did like the fact that it was a small school. There were no teaching assistants. So in some ways, it didn't feel so different from Andover. It was just much better weather there. Well, all five of the schools in that group are highly acclaimed educational institutions. So, I mean, you could have. You did very well for
doing that. Well, why didn't you stay in California? I finally got home sick. I stayed a couple of years after graduation, but I left home at 14 to go away boarding school. And then I did a junior year in high school in Spain and a junior year in college in Spain. So I'd always been kind of a bit of a nomad. And I was ready to be back near, near my family, quite honestly, and enjoy New York. I never really had, you know, teenage experience in New York. I went away
to school at 14. I would come home for break, so I wanted to experience my city as an adult. And good decision. Yeah, it's been great. It's been great. You know, it's interesting. New York used to be, when we were there, pre COVID, man, there was a wine shop, like, on every corner. I mean, it's one of those towns where wine is an important part of the culture. Certainly the restaurant, food, the hospitality side of New York is incredible. The hotbed of
restaurants and Michelin stars. But there always seems to be a wine culture that just sort of runs itself. It just kind of takes care of itself. It's got wine bars, it's got wine shops. Did that, was that part of your, you know, post college lifestyle? To be honest, no, not really. I wish I could say that it was. I got into wine and very roundabout way. When I graduated, I eventually ended up working as an events planner. So I
was working with nonprofits. I was producing red carpet galas. Took a few detours, and I ended up becoming the events director at the Princeton Club in midtown. And part of my responsibility was putting on the wine and spirits tastings for the members, because those were no brainers, they were profitable. My general manager was happy and got members in the club. The events always
sold out. So I started meeting people in the industry, and at that point, really, my wine knowledge was, it's white, or it's red, it still, or it's sparkles. I really didn't know much. I was the person, like, do we have the tasting mats? Do we have the decanters? Are they chilled right? But through doing those events, I started meeting people in the industry. And someone invited me to have lunch one day, said, oh, you were
so great to work with. Why don't you come one day to one of our events that aren't at the Princeton Club so you can enjoy the tasting? And that was really my first time sitting across from a winemaker that was probably about 2010 or eleven, and I realized there was this whole world I didn't know about. You know, he talked about these grapes like they were children, you know, throwing around these terms, malolactic fermentation, trellis systems. And I'm
nodding my head and thinking, boy, I have a lot to learn. And that was really the catalyst. I started going to more tastings. I started buying books. I was already writing at that point, I had a pretty popular lifestyle blog and newsletter with. With advertisers, and I covered fashion and food and arts and culture, but I slowly started integrating wine content. And then I think it was at a time where a lot of women my age were at a point in our career where we wanted to know more about
wine. Your early thirties, you're making a little more money, you're going to events, you're going to fancier restaurants. You want to be able to say something other than white wine. So as I was learning, I was sharing with other women especially, who wanted to know, what is Chardonnay? What is suncer with what is Vermentino? So it was just. It was kind of like the right moment, the right time. So I always laugh when people say, oh, you're so new
to this. It's just when I started, there was no instagram. You know, it was a blog. And I used to do in person events for my readers. But, yeah, I've been kicking around for about 15 plus years now doing. Do you think that that is an academic curiosity where you sat there, or was it driven by your need to understand wine specifically or food? I always try to pin this down. What is this motivating factor that piques our curiosity at some point and we just have to learn
more? I think it's a little bit of both. Being an anthropology major, I think I'm just always naturally curious about any type of culture that's different. So the wine culture is certainly something that was new and exciting, a new way of looking at the world. And it brought in all the issues that I was interested in. Culture, language, science, artistry, spirituality, it's all there in wine. And my dad was a professional chef, so I always grew up with the love of
flavor. And so even though we spend a lot of time more focused on food, my dad did buy me my first bottle of wine when I was 16. So I think all of these things kind of combined. Like, wow, this is something that, yeah, it tastes good. I'm getting a little older, I'm appreciating more about it. But really, for me, yes, the wine should taste good. That's important. It being delicious is an important part of its appeal.
But I think the stories are really what attracted me, just learning why people do this, why people collect, why people change careers to become winemakers, why people continue when they lose everything in a fire. You know, just what is that drive? So I think that's really what keeps me interested, are the stories. It's funny you said collected. I am not a collector. We never even. My business was about $15 to $20 wines after 35 years
of doing this. And I never collected it. Never even told. I thought, you know, collecting wine for a financial gain was really not a good idea. But now, because I sold the company and the buyer wanted nothing to do with our seller, I've got like, I don't know, 3000 bottles almost of some pretty cool stuff. And I. This mentality of collecting has settled in. I'm like, man, if I
drink that, I'm not going to have it anymore. And that's like, I'm like, you shouldn't care, just drink it because what are you doing anyway? But you're an anthropology major. Yes. Well, look, I had 30,000, 30,000 cases here almost at all times. And so I really didn't need a seller and I really didn't need any. But now I have to have one. But you know, anthropology major is an interesting viewpoint for the wine business that, you
know, they found that winery in Armenia 6000 years old. They found the winemaker shoes or maybe did they have cellar rats back then? Maybe that was a cellar rat shoe, we don't know. But there is something very historical about wine as a beverage. Was it part of the curriculum at all when you were in college? You know, not at all. I mean, Pomona, like, you know, was not a party school at all. I think the only wine I ever drank during the Pomona years was a wine cooler and some boone's farm.
I was like, oh my goodness, all those years in the west coast, I never visited Napa, Sonoma, Central coast. It really was not a part of the experience. And then recently I met Chapney Corson, also Pomona College graduate. And what sparked her interest in wine was a wine tasting class at Pomona. And I'm like, they didn't have that when I was there. Well, that's so interesting. Wouldn't it be anthropologic? Anthropologic? Anthropologic, anthropological. I mean, wouldn't, wouldn't
wine be part of that curriculum? Because it goes so far back. You know, I think you've given me a good case to go to the school and say I'd like to be an adjunct in the anthropology. I may have found a new gig, but no, we talk about anthropology covers linguistics, archaeology, culture. And I'm sure we must have talked about wine at different points, but it was never a focus. There were no wine classes at Pomona at
all, so. Well, I think this is what separates wine from every other beverage is this historical viewpoint and its cultural additive to, you know, lifestyle. I mean, you know, they know, they know what vintages King Tut liked. They have to tell you something, right? There's something
unique and ethereal about this glass, the wine. I just wrote an article that I'm going to post today, a short article on the contemporary issues with wine in the marketplace and how I think history has its back because it's not going to go away, of course. And if somebody wants to drink it out of a can, let them drink out of a can. But that's eventually going to be a non issue as well. But for you, you sat at this table, you tasted this wine, you heard these stories, and
now you realize you'll never learn at all. Yeah. And even now, I mean, I think even if you talk to masters of wine and master psalms, I think that's the beauty of wine, is that you will never know at all. So it keeps it exciting and it's also very humbling. So that's why I'm always a little, I have a bit of trepidation when someone says you're a wine expert. I'm like, I may know slightly more than you just because I've immersed myself in it, but to call myself an expert, I
don't feel that. I feel I'm someone who's learning. I'm passionate. I like to share that information. It has certainly made topics that I didn't have much interest in before more interesting to me. So I think about geology at Pomona. Rocks for jocks, we called it. I hated geology. Well, once you get into wine, you become like a soil and rock nerd, right? Like really riveting and exciting. Like, if only they had taught this through the lens of wine, I would have found it
interesting, perhaps. So I, you know, I always regretted not going on to grad school. I was admitted, and then my life took a different direction and I decided not to go. But for me, wine has kind of filled that void of ongoing education. You know, they say that it has for me, for sure. I mean, my mom, if she was alive, would have gone, you know, who is this kid who understands, like, world geography? Like, I didn't care.
Exactly. But that's one of the subjects that your brain wraps around when you start studying wine as well as, like you said, rocks and things. And part of that says, and maybe this is where this contemporary viewpoint of the wine industry is. And I think, and we'll talk about that a second, why I think
it's going backwards a little bit. But is that the intimidating factor for your friends, let's say, who consider you an expert when you bring up sheast or chalk or, you know, granite and tap roots and all those things that, the buzzwords that we know but make everybody else's eyes spin, is that the intimidating factor for all? And we're going to talk about the cultural aspect of this, too. But is that in general, the things that people go, oh, you know, I really, I just want
a glass of wine. I don't want to hear about it. Yeah, I think it can be, but it doesn't have to be because I think, you know, sometimes wine can feel like inside baseball, right? Those of us in the industry, you know, we throw around our vernacular and our way of speaking about wine because it's a language that we know. And sometimes we forget when we're talking to consumers
and new drinkers that they're not familiar with those terms. So when you say, oh, yeah, it went through Mallow, oh, yeah, this wine has some va, and they're like, what are you talking about? Right. So I think, you know, I've been doing a lot of events with consumers now at festivals, at private clubs here in New York. And I think at the beginning, you just want to talk in very simple terms. They can understand. It shouldn't read, you know, like a taste sound, like a tasting note or
a scientific description. I always tell people, I want you to leave with maybe three things you didn't know before. So then when you go to that cocktail party, for example, the number of people who don't is like, oh, I don't think I like Sancerre, but I like Sauvignon blanc. Well, I've got a surprise for you. Sancerre is Sauvignon Blanc. How about that? Oh, I don't really like Chardonnay, but Chablis is great. Well, you know what? That's really
funny. Or people who think we talk about all these different flavors, and I've had someone genuinely ask, so, like, do they add, like, when you say it tastes like strawberry and hibiscus and tea leaves, do they add that to the wine? No, they don't. But, you know, there's some shared chemical compounds between those fruits and wine. Now, you don't need to rattle off the name of all the compounds to show off, you know? So I think sometimes we just need to be a
little more simple when we present it. And then for those people who want to know more, they'll start geeking out like I did. They'll find information on their own. They'll start going to more advanced tastings and seeking out more, you know, challenging experiences. But I think we do ourselves disservice when we say, you can only talk about wine in this way.
I agree with that, and certainly unintentional because I suppose in order to describe things or to talk about it, to understand, if you really want to dig deeper, you're going to figure out that, yes, like, we'll just say the other night I had a dinner with a french winemaker who came to our home, young man, and no one else in the room would have understood this. When I told him, I said, I've got a sparkling wine here, grown in, you know, it was in sheath. And he goes, oh, absolutely.
And it's not champagne. It's not an expensive bottle, but it's really good because he understands what that's supposed to be like, and certainly no one else in the room was going to know that, right? So it's unintentional that this vernacular occurs because you've got to study it. How many people do you think when you have those events with the consumers and you try to bring the language to a point where most
people can understand it? How many think come away percentage wise with at least the idea, I'd like to take the next step. I'm sure this is a guess, but because most people go, hey, I went to this event. It's really cool. The guy was talking about this and that, and, you know, I still like, you know, my, my apothec red. So what do you think? There's a group? I think so, because I think the fact that they even showed up for that
event shows that there's a virgin. Now, once in a while, you see someone whose partner clearly dragged them to the tasting like, honey is date night and we're going to a wine tasting. I had an experience last year in Aspen. There was a couple sitting front row center, and one of them looked miserable for the first ten minutes, like, I don't want to be at this event. She made me come to this tasting. So I kind of kept looking over at him, and I said, I think he's
softening up a little. After two sips, we get to the third wine, he's nodding, he's participating. After the session ended, he's the first person I went to, and I said, am I wrong? But I had a feeling in the beginning, you don't really want to be here. She made you come, didn't she? He goes, yeah, but I got to tell you, this was really fun. I learned a lot. And he's like, I would do it again. Wow, that's great.
So I think that when you make it real, if you keep it down to earth, that even those folks who think they're not interested, and sometimes it's, like I said, sometimes they didn't know if it's a science geek, they really cling to the science. Like, oh, I didn't know that. Or someone who's really into, who's environmentalist. And I hear about all of the sustainability
efforts and wine. Sometimes it's a social justice perspective when they hear about whiny, sort of very involved in important social justice issues, you know, gender diversity, racial diversity, equity parity. So I think, you know, you meet people where they are. So I would like to think more than half the room will continue to go to wine tastings, will go to wine shops and step out of their comfort zone, because that's the main thing I tell people, we all
have our comfort wines just like we have comfort foods. But I challenge you. When you go to your wine shop, don't always reach for that same bottle that you always get. Have a conversation, develop a good relationship with your wine cellar, and expand a bit. And you don't have to like everything. And there's nothing wrong. I don't care how many points it has. You're allowed not to like it, but understand why you don't like it. Maybe
you like a more acidic wine. Maybe you like a less acidic wine. Maybe you like more complexity. Maybe you, you know, you, you like lots of tannin, grippy wines. Maybe you like a jammy wine. There's nothing wrong, but understand what you. Do and don't like, you know, that's a great thought. And I had a buyer here at one of my wine shop was open. It was dore. He was one of the best pallets buying pallets in Los Angeles, for sure of my experience. But uncannily, he was able
to take somebody's record. Some walks into the shop and says, I usually buy you this. And he'd say, well, I'm going to take you over here to try something else. And that's a talent for a wine shop owner or a wine club owner, to be able to hear a particular style and then take the next step, left or right, north or south, as to what that person might like. And that's an important thing.
But you said something very important. This is the part we're going to peel back now, and that is this experiential part of wine. I think the industry has been plagued by a couple of things, and one of them is the advent of the Internet and the advent of 50 cent a liter wines coming from Europe being bottled with fancy labels and being sold as something more than they are, and the disillusion of the consumer.
Because the story can't be when you're sitting at dinner with your friends, hey, I got this for $5 on the Internet. There was a new club started during Christmas that I watched called Vino Cheapo, for my God's sake. I mean, give me a break. So why would you, you know, why would you do that at dinner? Hey, I got this. At Vino Cheapo, you know? Yeah, maybe the wines are good. I don't. Well, that's a
different story. But the point being, I think that wine actually is going back to, like, the seventies and eighties, when my dad had his wine groups and the Les Amie Devant was around in America. And you would go to the dinners and you would hear from the winemakers, and that's where you start to understand the differences and the history and the romanticism and why a glass of wine is different than any other beverage. Are you seeing more of that? You know, I've noticed, you know,
when I go out to eat, I'm really impressed. When I look around the dining room and I see young people in their twenties and thirties with really good battles on the table. I think we're living in an age where the younger generation, they really care about what they eat and drink, and a great deal of their disposable income goes there. And I know we talk about, you know, they're not drinking enough. And part of that is, look, when you're young, you don't necessarily want to drink what
your parents are drinking, right? And we were all young once, right? So it's a process. But I do notice, at least here in New York, I feel hopeful because I see that they're not just saying, oh, give me the cheapest or the second cheapest. I look, I'm like, oh, they spent more money on wine than we did tonight, and they're enjoying entertainment. So, yeah, I think people want to be a part of the conversation, and I think social media
has fueled that. You know, when you see people, one of your friends in college who suddenly is a social media influencer, talking about wine, it's like, oh, I want to speak that language, too. So I think social media has really helped to fuel that conversation. There are some downsides to it as well. But I do think it has captivated a larger audience in a way that wasn't possible with just
a print magazine. I think you're right. I think as well, probably in the magazines that you contribute to, a lot of articles are about the decline in sales for the listener. We're not talking about like this 30% drop in sales. We're talking a few percentage points. It's also coupled with the overproduction of wine and everybody jumping in to see if they can make a million dollars. And of course, we know how that works. That will add it and the advent
of the supermarket formula wise. Now, this is an interesting problem that we have, and I just realized the complexity of it as we're talking. You walk into about Ralph's market, supermarket, safeway, you know, Kroger's or any of the East coast chains, and virtually the shelf is the same. Right? It's a popular. Well, the beauty of New York City is you can't buy wine in the supermarket. Well, that's true. That's true.
So for me, when I, it always throws me off when I'm in another state and I'm like, oh, my goodness, they have a whole aisle of wine. I'm like, how does anyone navigate this? There's no one to help you. That's a really good point. I didn't think about that. Maybe, and I'm sure it's not the intention of the bureaucrats of New York, which was to actually create a system that forced somebody into looking at wines other than what's at the supermarket. Because there is no
wine in the supermarket. Exactly. Even though, look, there is a lobby, you know, that very much wants to be able to sell wine in a supermarket. And of course, the wine shop and liquor store owners are lobbying against it, of course. But I think the wine shop does a much better job of creating a wine culture than a supermarket, which feels much more
utilitarian. You go there for your necessities, you have your list, you grab what, you know, the times I've been out of state and I've walked through these large wine aisles, they lack that energy that you get in a wine shop. Well, there's no, there's no question. And that was a point I was going to make. But since you live in New York, you don't get to experience it like I do. But if you go to Vaughn's here at Ralph's, it's the same shelf, you know, there's Cali red right in the middle.
There's menage a trois and floor stacks of Josh and you don't get to make a decision. In fact, I posted a picture the other day of the Ralph's market Cabernet section. Every single wine had a shelf talker. So it was either about the price or is about the points that got it. And I posted. All I wrote was, how do you make a decision? And it kind of goes back to what I'm talking about, which is we need these wine shots. We need the department manager anyway at a large
supermarket, if they have one, to help us break out. But then on the flip side of this, and you probably experienced it, we need those wines for people that don't drink wine to come into the fray. Grab a bottle of an interesting label and like, have you seen the freak show label? They're like a carnival picture. Yes, yes. Right? And they grab, they go, oh, this is interesting beverage. And then they move to
the next step. And it's sort of like you need that entry level conversation before you can get to the stuff that we like to talk about. Absolutely. I always say very few Americans grow up, you know, drinking Brunello, Bordeaux, Burgundy. So you know that the palate, you know, there's a gateway. You have your entry level wines to kind of sparked the excitement. That's actually a really good point. I never drank gin. My dad made me. I made a martini every night for him. Son, make
me a martini, but I never drank it. And then till I was an adult, now I drink too much for it. So, yeah, I never understood why my dad liked whiskey. I'm like, oh, smells like listerine. It's horrible. But then once I got into wine, I started appreciating, you know, spirits as well. Yeah, you got to start. You got to start. That's the key thing. What are you hearing about non alcoholic? And this goes back to my romantic view of wine and the ethereal value of glass wine. But non alcoholic is hot.
It is not. Sure I get it. I'm trying to figure out low alcohol, which I think is a better product, but bag in the box, all this cans. Had a conversation with the Cornell professor who's working on a food grade lining to help canned wines go longer. And I can only look at that having watched my dad's wine shop and my wine shop and everything go through its cycles as just blips in the consumption of wine since we talked about this 6000 year old winery in Armenia. These are just consumer
pieces that just kind of go up and down. And really, I think the low alcohol, because there are definitely times that I prefer lower alcohol wine right and again, you know, being more conscious of what we're consuming. And I think it also allows your friends and colleagues who don't drink to at least still participate in the ritual with the no alcohol. But as I said in an interview that I did last year, personally, I like my wine with alcohol. To me, that's what a wine is. I like the alcohol.
I don't think we should demonize it. I think there's a real movement now that seems to be surging moderation. Drink smartly, but enjoy. But I think, just like we shouldn't overdo sugar, we know that too much sugar can be bad for us. Yes, too much alcohol is bad. But, yeah, the no alcohol, I read recently, what's the chain of Boisson? That a lot of their stores are closing. They started in New York. I believe they have some on the west coast, and their whole model was alcohol free beverages.
And so the cynical part of me is like, maybe people realize they were spending $30 for a pretty bottle of iced tea or fruit juice. Yeah, right. Maybe that's the problem. Well, it's kind of interesting you just said this, and it just hit me. This generation, LMNOP or Z or X or whatever we're talking about, and millennials as well, they were all about organic biodynamic. They're all about what you put in your body, but they drink white
claw, which is kind of ironic. Exactly. But at the same time, for the listeners, non alcoholic wine is wine. And of course, it certainly has something to do with what you start with. It needs to be pretty good for it to end up being pretty good, removing the alcohol. But then they have to put back stuff in order to make it palatable. And so
they put water back, and they put flavoring agents, whatever they do. And so all of a sudden, now, a non alcoholic winery is not really wine, obviously, but it's not as clean as maybe a biodynamic wine is, or an organic wine might be. And so maybe there's an irony between the generational output outlook on what you put in your body and the idea that we're not drinking alcohol, but what about all the crap we're putting back into the wine to make it palatable.
Yeah. And again, I don't want to disparage, and a lot of people who are working very hard in the low nose space, as they call it, but I don't think, I think they can all coexist. Yes. Oh, that's a good one day when we talk about wine, traditional definition of wine is that it is an alcoholic beverage. Yes. And if you want to do something wine inspired or wine adjacent
or a wine proxy, well and good. But I don't think that I would hope that the goal is that, oh, 50 years from now, most wines will be alcohol free, because I think that completely changes this history, this narrative, this legacy. So I think we can have innovation because we're a diverse population and people want to try these things, go for it. But let's recognize wine kind of is the foundational drink that we're working with. And I think
that's like the beginning of this conversation, was that these little. Little blips and little consumerisms, it led me to have this conversation in my head about most winemakers and vineyard owners that are not engaging this industry because they think they're going to make a billion dollars, will tell you that they're just passing through and they're just stewards of the land and stewards of the beverage. And we think about it, you know, Madame
Clicot was making wine in the late 17 hundreds. Champagne. It's pretty much the same as it was, you know, the profile, the flavor profile might be a little different, but it's a fermented grape juice beverage that's got bubbles in it and it's sealed with a cork. And it's pretty much the same after 300 something years. Yeah, exactly. So it's kind of interesting, speaking of her, you know, she was a pioneer. She was. Had
her back against the wall to get into this industry. But a woman who was a formidable businesswoman of the time in women and wine, it's still kind of a struggle out there. And here you are, an influencer and a writer. Have you encountered any headwinds and sexism in this industry? Oh, I think, you know, whenever people ask this, I'm like, you have to remember, wine is a microcosm of everything else in our society. So this idea that somehow the wine industry would be a utopia, Shangri la,
Kumbaya, that all of these other problems in the world. No, we have the power of wine. That, you know, it's kind of keeping. Us safe transcends it all. No, it's just not true. So, yes, I've experienced things, you know, just as I experienced them when I worked in other industries, but I do see the progress that has been made. You know, when I first started going to wine tastings, 20 1011, I was often
definitely the youngest. Now I'm no longer the youngest person in the room, which is, you know, you've reached that stage like oh, I'm sorry. So I definitely. I can check that list. Okay. Not the youngest anymore, but I was the youngest. I was often the only woman and often the only person of color in the room. Now, when I go to tastings, especially in a city as diverse as New York, you think about it. To have events in New York that didn't reflect the diversity
of this city, it's kind of crazy. Yeah, it is. Now I go to taste things, and I see different ages, different backgrounds. Yeah. The progress has been made. Now, it doesn't mean that there doesn't linger some of these issues that just exist in our society still. You know, people who want to mansplain, people who assume because, oh, you must only like sweet wines. Right? You know, people will make off. Oh, let me tell you about the grape and Barolo. Oh, really? Oh,
Borrello is not the name of the great. Thank you for enlightening me. Yeah, well, that's. Yeah, it exists for sure. It exists for sure. So the question, because I was at the AAA, and for the AAAV, for the listeners, it's the association of African American Vendors event in Napa. And I think there were 22 or 25 tables. I tasted every wine that was there. Oh, wow. And they were fabulous. You know, the whole lineup was amazing. Right. And I've had a lot of conversations with folks
from there. I had a conversation with Dwayne Wade's operative, George Walker. George. Yay. George is fabulous. Yeah. And we had a great conversation. Yeah. It's an intimidating subject, and I wonder if that's not the root of why people of color, women, LGBTQ community hasn't been involved. Because on the outside looking in, it's kind of intimidating. We talked about it a little bit before, rather than an exclusive, you know, an attempt to keep people out. I don't think that was really the
case, but I think it's just an intimidating subject. And barrier exists. Yeah, intimidation definitely can be a factor. And how much of a fact, I think, varies from individual to individual. So I think, yes, there are trends that we see that impact groups, but always say we have to keep the individual in mind. So, yes, I did notice there were people coming up at the same time as me that I saw kind of drop out and always wonder why they faded away. Did they get tired of being the only
one in the room feeling like they weren't being heard or seen? Whereas my nature is I just keep showing up. I'm a little bit stubborn that way. Like, I'm not going to let that deter me. So I think it is important to always say it's not enough to give people a seat at the table. You have to respect their presence and let their voice be heard. So I think there was a tendency in the beginning like, oh, well, more people are coming. That's great. But are they feeling welcome?
Good point. So, and how do we do that without pandering? How do we do that in a respectful way? And I'm not saying I have all the answers, and there's certainly a learning curve, but I think if a true intent is there, people sense it. And I can tell the difference. When someone is inviting me, like, oh, Wanda, we know you've been to Italy. Wow. At least 20 times. You've written so much about Italy. We want to tap into you for your expertise there, as opposed to, oh, we need a black woman in the
lineup. You sense the difference. I'm very sensitive to that because I don't believe in tokenism. I don't like feeling like I'm being pandered to. But you also have to create a pipeline for people to get the experience and the education. So it's great to see the scholarship programs that exist now. It's important to show that there's so many other careers and wine. You don't have to be a writer or a winemaker. You can work for an importer if you have a
legal interest. You can use your law degree to work in the wine industry, be a publicist, be a copywriter, work in marketing. So I think there's so many other areas that aren't as visible that would benefit from more diversity across the board in terms of age, race, gender, all of it. You know, that's a fascinating point. There are so many angles to this industry and to do. And I spent, like I said, there are already 35 years buying wine and bought a lot.
I think I sold 17 million bottles. But I have gotten all that traction all those years. Doesn't compare to the exposure I've gotten through this podcast, which was generated just because I kept hearing great stories here in the shop. I decided to put a microphone in front of the stories, but traveling the world, and I was telling this to Angela McCrae the other
day on the podcast. I said, you know, you're in the beginning of a career here, and you are going to find that the welcoming arms around anywhere you go in the world that you are participating in this industry and the way you are, in her case, with the AAAV that you're going to be, you're going to have an amazing experience. Like you just said, you can go to Italy and represent yourself, and you're like, it's a whole community and a
whole fraternity. And, I think, irrelevant of your race or your sexual orientation or your sex. It's worldwide recognition that we're on the same page, or we try to be. On the same page, you know? It's so true. And I sometimes feel very corny because I feel like I say it at every press trip that I'm on, but I'll look around the table, and I'm like, how else would this have happened? That me, you know, humble background from
New York, first in my family to go to college. I'm sitting with someone who has a title, whose family's been making wine for 400 years, someone who's a mayor, someone who's a dignitary. I was like, we would never have met with if not for wine. And not only not are we meeting, we're enjoying each other's company. This is the ultimate icebreaker, because we all have this passion, and it lets the walls down. It's almost like we give someone the benefit of
the doubt. Now, look, there's some jerks and wine, too, but in general, you're a wine person, okay? We can have a conversation, and then if, you know, it's, you know, it kind of opens the door. And that's what I really love about it, that people that I never would have encountered, you know, are in my circle now and in my corner and have really been great allies and supporters because we have this shared passion, and I think they
see how much I love it. You know, you can't think of any other industry, and this is more for the benefit of the listeners. But that that occurs in, like, if you make widgets or semiconductors or if you make lawn furniture, nobody cares. If you go to the manufacturing section of Paris and have a conversation with a lawn furniture maker, the man you show up in the wine trade, and that conversation is in recognition, and acceptance is
immediate. And I think that bodes well for the industry when it comes to BIPOC and LBGQ community and different sexes, in that it really eventually has no barriers. It's just making people aware of that they did exist. And I say this because I had a conversation with Elizabeth Taigny of Cornell Vineyards in Spring Mountain and a very strong woman and a very good winemaker, and she almost was offended when I asked the same question. I just asked you about
women in wine. And she goes, why does it even enter the conversation? Why do I have to have that conversation? I just make good wine. I go, you're right. Yeah, no, I get that. And it's. Sometimes I'll see a headline, let's black woman wine writer. It's like, well, why can't it just be wine writer? But I get it's important to acknowledge people who break barriers, and it's hopeful to think that we reach a point where it's so diverse that you
don't have to call it out anymore. Correct? Not quite sure we're there yet. I was on a panel last year and this question came up. It was a women and wine symposium. Like, do we still need these events in these organizations? I said, the reality is, as far as we've come, women are still making around eighty seven cents to the dollar compared to what men make. Era, which they've been talking about since I was a little girl hasn't passed. But I haven't heard that acronym in a long
time. Yeah, but it's true. And there's still people still working on that. So there are still issues, you know, when we look at healthcare, when we look at socioeconomic issues, you know, some of us are doing really well and we feel like, hey, I've made it. And maybe your little circle of friends is doing really well. But when you look at the statistics, women are still, you know, not getting our fair share of the pie sometimes. So I think it's important to
not say, okay, we're done. So I think that's why it's important, and I think it's important for people who feel marginalized, you know, for women to get together. I'm the immediate past president of La Dame Descoffier. You know, we have 44, 45 chapters around the world of women in wine, food and hospitality. And, you know, I think it's important for women to have these communities where they feel like not only they can dis a bit, but have a support system, benefit from the
knowledge of those who've gone before you. How did you navigate these challenges to hear from people who have been there before? You know what? I have seen change, so we have to keep at it. But we're not done. We're not done. But I get what she's saying. You don't want the fact that you're a woman or a black person, an asian, Latino, to always be the leading headline, because I think it's a delicate balance. It's a delicate balance.
There may not be an endgame to that. Maybe it's just humanity, you know, and it's just the viewpoint of humanity, humans that you're not going to change the DNA, and you need to raise that flag all the time. When I was. When I reached out to the AAV in 2000, I can't remember what social upheaval there was, but it was early, two thousands. And I wanted to see if I could feature black owned winery wine in my
club. And I found the association that just started, I guess, because it was like 2004, 2006 or something, and there were like five members, I mean, literally like five members that were making wines, and none of them made enough wine for my club selection. So then when I recontacted Angela for the show, and now there's 200 members of the association, and, you know, there should be more than that. And when I brought it up with my friends or other people in the community, the
wine community, they're like, I didn't know that even existed. I didn't know that was a thing, you know, that there was such an association. And. But I think the prevailing theme when I was talking to everybody, there was like, we know that we're. We're representing ourselves as a black winery, but we'd prefer just to represent ourselves as a winery when the time comes to do it, because we make really good wine and we make. There's a wide
range of quality. Not quality, wide range of styles from Virginia to Napa. There was. There was a woman there. I couldn't believe this. And it's actually pretty good. But she makes a method champagne canned sparkler. Interesting. And so if you, if you take the next thought, like, okay, how you disgorge it, and she goes, I don't. I'm like, whoa, okay, so whatever. But it's really, it's really
quite good. But anyway, the point being, we know we should continue to wave the flags and present the thing, but not, like you said, the leading element of that conversation, it should be, oh, by the way, this is a black owned winery, or this is a chinese owned winery, or this is a women owned winery or women winemaker. So that the recognition exists, but you really want them to swirl that glass and go, wow, this is really good. Exactly. You know, just, I want my
writing to speak for itself. When I give a presentation and look, you know, I think every person of color knows that look, I've experienced it. You know, when I walk to the front of the room, like, hey, welcome to the event. Like, oh, you're the presenter. Yo, girl, that looks kidding. But at the end of it, I wouldn't say, well, she was a great presenter. Like, oh, she was a great black wide presenter. Yeah.
You know, and it's complicated. Look, our history is so young. You know, it wasn't that long ago that my mom was a little girl in Georgia attending segregated schools. So the past is never really the past, to quote Faulkner. Right. And this is our very recent history still. And like I said, we have a long way to
go. And these organizations like AAA are important because the fact that it went from nine to now, 200 producers shows that by creating a structure where people can learn from each other, learn how to navigate from a supportive group, to help eliminate some of those roadblocks, it's important to have that. I think you're right. We're not a monolith. So you have to balance that group support with being able to be your individual self. And that's what I try to do.
Where was your father a chef? Oh, you know, it's filled. My dad, had he. He came too soon, because he would have been a television personality for sure. You got 10% of it. You're. You know, my dad's story was really interesting. He grew up in rural North Carolina, moved to New York as a teenager, went to Brandeis High School on the Upper west side. That's where. Yeah. And let's say, unlike me, my
dad was not that into school. He was always cutting class, and his favorite thing to do is hang out at the library at Lincoln center and listen to old jazz albums. And there was a man in the neighborhood who was a chef. And one day he said to my dad, like, come here. I see you all the time. You don't seem like a bad kid. What are you doing? And he said to my dad, since you're not going to school anyway, I
think, I don't remember if it was a week or two weeks. But anyway, he took my dad into the restaurant, and basically my dad apprenticed and discovered that he really loved being in the kitchen and he was good at it. So he never went to culinary school, but he worked his way up. And, you know, my favorite story is when he cooked for his fun day. And I was like, oh, dad, this video, beef stew is so good. He's like, that is Bouffe Bourguignon. So he really was a student of french classical cuisine.
That was the foundation. But I always said I had the best of both worlds. He made the best north Carolina pulled pork barbecue I've ever had in my life. That's true. He also introduced me to Boeuf Bourguignon and Pate and wine. Yeah. He didn't work at any well known restaurants, most of them are probably Kohl's now, you know, the nature of it in New York, but that's how
he supported us. You know, that's a very french thing to do, which is, you know, they kind of have to declare at some point we're not going to go to college. We're going to either be a chef. I just got done with a podcast with Frederick Caston, who's exactly the same story, except in Avignon instead of New York. But basically, you know, in the wine industry, it's like that, too. You can sell her out your way to being the winemaker, or you can go through, you know, Cornell
White school or UC Davis and figure that out. But what would he say about the kitchen environment? Was it less racist? Was it more accepting? Oh, interesting. I mean, I think definitely, you know, at that time, I know he definitely had experiences. I've heard about them. I think, you know, I must have inherited this from him. Like, it's not going to keep me from doing a thing I love and I think I'm pretty good at, and I want to keep getting better. So he kept showing up,
but I know he had challenges. And I said to him, I said, dad, you're so mean in the kitchen. Like, when I would go visit him at work. But I think he never wanted. He wanted to have that authority. It was important for he was running that. He was running the kitchen. And sometimes the people, most of the people that he supervised weren't black. Right. So was a diverse crew in the kitchen. So he wanted. It was very important for him to have that presence of, I'm not your best friend.
I'm the leader. And for many people, that might have been the first time they encountered a person of color who was the authority figure. Right. I can see that. And now it's much more common. But when he was doing it, not so much. Well, you think about it, the kitchen environment, like I said, my daughter was a. Worked at the Lincoln restaurant. You know, almost every chef that's celebrated today in their heyday was like that. You had to, because think about the line chef, the sous
chef, the line cook, the saucier. These people most probably don't give a crap about anything, right? And so if you let them to their own, to their own leading, you're going to end up with a poor product. And so it takes an authoritative figure to manhandle the kitchen to make sure it comes out the way the leader wants it to come out, because once that plate leaves the kitchen, it's a representation of that person. How much his team respected him. Right. You know, so.
Yeah, but definitely, I think you're right. I inherited a lot of that. I just use it in wine. My cooking is decent, but. Well, but you're Ladame d'Escoffier. I mean, the father of french food. Your dad had to be proud of that, you know? So. Yes, for sure. For sure. I find the wine trade very similar to the hospital food trade because it is hospitality. When it's all said and done, we try to put out a product that people are going to appreciate
and bring people together that they talk about. And that's the one thing about wine that's such a fascinating. I'm sure it's with you, whether you're sitting at dinner with your best friends who understand a little bit about wine because you've been hanging around them for a while or somebody you've never met before, but the conversation always comes to what's in that glass. Yeah.
And then they like to throw out something that they learned that they know, and all of a sudden, this unintimidating, unthreatening conversation of wine happens. And I love that. Yeah. And I try not to be like the know it all. Cause I'm not. But I like to move the conversation forward because it's. It really is. It's not political. You don't have to worry about, you know, offending anybody about making, you know, disparaging comments. You can just talk about it.
Yeah. I think as human beings, you know, we're drawn to ritual as well. Right. And everyone is so busy, more of us are working from home. So the ritual of sitting at a table, sharing a bottle is something that I think is primal in us. And wine kind of forces us to take that time out and savor the moment, the conversation. We're so much to go. A grab and go culture. You grab your coffee, you grab a slice, and you
eat it walking down the street. And wine kind of forces us in a very beautiful way to remember what it's like just to be together. True. Such a. You were already at our time, which is unbelievable. With so much to talk about, but a fascinating conversation. I hope we can do it again. Yes. Hopefully in person one day. Yeah. We have not plans to get to Manhattan in the near future, unfortunately. They used to love doing that to visit my daughter. But
we're always in Napa, and we'll keep tabs of each other. And if I love, I take my little portable studio up to Yonville and I just sit in the hotel conference room, and we do podcasts many times up there, so we'll just keep tabs and see what your travel plans are next time you're up there. We could be up there as well. Sounds like a plan for sure. Thank you for the time today and cheers. Cheers. Thank you for listening to wine talks with Paul Callum. Caryn, don't forget to subscribe
because there's more great interviews on their way. Folks, have a great time out there in the wine world. Cheers.