Once you start really diving into the process of making wine, it's not a difficult process to make. You can make wine in about three steps. It's crap, but you can make it in about three steps. You learn the next hundred steps and it's a drinkable wine, but it's the thousand steps you learn. They really define you as a winemaker. Sit back and grab a glass. It's Wine Talks with Paul King. Hey, welcome to Wine
Talks with Paul Key. And we are in studio today in beautiful Southern California. Actually a little blustery here in Monroe. About to have a conversation with Phil Long of Longevity Wines way out in Maryland today. Hey, have a listen to a show that I just came out with a guy named Zach Armand, young man who's decided he's going to take on wholesale wine from an area of the world that nobody knows about called Armenia
and grapes that no one knows about, called Areni. It's a fascinating story about here, how he got involved with this crazy industry. And give us a review and subscribe. If you don't have anything nice to say, don't do it. There's something good to say, go ahead and do it. That's how we keep our egos in check here in the podcasting world, but not why we're here. Here to have a conversation with Mr. Phil Long of Longevity Wines. Welcome to the show, Phil. Thank you, Paul. Great, great being here.
I appreciate you having me. Well, fascinating story. And we met up in the aaav, the association of African American Ve association tasting and had a fabulous time there. But. But we stumbled across the only time in my life in career where I ran into somebody who grew up in Inglewood near me as I stayed there till I was about 7 and we were neighbors there at 80, I was at 84th street and you were at 82nd, and you went to Daniel Freeman Elementary. And until. Until I didn't. Right. Kindergarten
through fifth grade. And they decided that's when segregation and busing was going to happen. So I was bused for the sixth grade to Lati Hera. Really? Yeah. Oh, wow. We didn't talk about that. So my father had a pharmacy on Van Ness, right near Manchester. And then he would take me to school. I mean, take me to work. I'd stamp brochures or something. And then the driver would drive me to Daniel Freeman, which I don't remember being that far from there. No, Daniel Freeman was probably
three blocks from. So it's really close. So it's really close. In fact, when I was old enough to Start walking to school. I remember my mom standing out on the sidewalk watching me until I got to the school block. Oh, wow. So that was that close? Yes, it was that close because my parents house was right across the street from the pharmacy with a little Spanish style home. My mom raised us there. And then we moved to 84th Street, I think when
I was probably three or something. And in my first lemonade stand was right there on Manchester, near Prairie, you know, before the Forum. Before the Forum, right. Yeah. I watched. There were occasions when I got to high school. I remember walking. I don't remember why, but I remember walking and watching the form being built. Yeah, Isn't that crazy? Yeah, it is crazy. I learned how to ride a bike at Hollywood park parking lot and you know, we went to Huck Finn Day and fish in the.
The lake in there, whatever. I don't know. Darby Park. Darby Park. You know, I ended up. We end up at the beach Cities and I ran cross country in high school and I won one race during that, my freshman year anyway, and it was at Darby park when we raced against Inglewood High. Really? Yeah. And I. Maybe it was this nostalgic thing for me, but, you know, it was like we used to have Cub Scouts there and my brother was. My dad was Scout master of the Englewood Cub
Scouts. And they had their Pinewood Derby at Darby park and. Wow. Yeah. You know, I haven't spent a lot of time in Inglewood lately, but I. I hear has changed enormously. Oh, man, you can imagine with Sofi Stadium and. Right. All that. My grandparents are there at the cemetery at the Corner Prairie in Manchester as well. Oh, really? Yeah. And my dad was chief of staff at Daniel Freeman Hospital. Oh, wow. Really? Yes, I believe that's where I was born. Oh, really? Really? Wow.
Actually, I was born. I was born here in dc, Believe it or not. Oh, wow. Yeah. And then you moved from D.C. to Englewood. Born here. Went to nursery school in Oakland, California and went from kindergarten all the way through, you know, until I tell. Until we moved up to northern California in 2002. So I pretty much spent my entire life in. In Southern California. Wow. How is it then that two guys living two blocks apart of the same generation both got into the wine trade? Yeah, I've. This was
not my journey. I. I didn't actually know wine was made in this country when I was in college. Wow. Wow. Yeah. That was a late bloomer there. Pretty much. Yeah. I thought it was France or somewhere in Europe. Wine just wasn't really a part of My upbringing, so I didn't have much, much exposure to it. Well, what's interesting for me, my dad was standing at the counter at the pharmacy on Van Ness and Queen Elizabeth was coming to town to meet President Eisenhower. And he. And he
poured. He was the first president to pour an American wine at the White House. Wasn't for a state dinner, it was for a lunch. And he poured him. Poured her Charles Krug special select Cabernet. And my dad reading the news LA Times sitting at the counter on Van Ness thought this was pretty interesting. And I guess one of his Lions Club buddies had a liquor store down the road and ordered a case and that started this journey. But you, you
didn't, like you said you didn't know wine in college, but. And you studied architecture when. What was that plan? What was the plan for the architecture? You know, it really wasn't a plan. It was a default actually. Ever since the seventh grade at, at Crozier Junior High. I took one of the courses was drafting, right. And I don't know, for some reason it. It just clicked. I ended up doing everybody else's homework because nobody else could get it. Like this whole isometric
perspective. What does this mean? What. It just clicked. So from that point on, drafting and being a creative has been my life. When I got to Englewood High, I immediately signed up for architectural drafting. Turns out I knew more than the teacher did, so he would all the students to come to me. So when it was time to go to college, it was really boiled down to what two Cal State schools offered architecture as a major,
and it was Pomona and San Luis Obispo. San Luis Obispo is more of a engineering oriented school and Pomona is more of a design oriented school. So that's where I went. And so while you're there, you continue this love of, of the idea because it's really engineering at this point, right? It's not really. No, it's really design. It's. It's really designing buildings, homes, you know, styles going back through all of the different ages of architecture and
design. And it was really fascinating. I mean, I still carry that with me today. It's kind of cool. Well, you would think too, in the wine trade that is a really interesting part of the business, which is design of wineries, not only for architectural history, but the functionality of that is very important as well. In fact, your design of your winery is really fun. Having seen it online, had not a chance to go there, but I'm sure that you had a lot to do with how that was going
to function. You know, I, I, I give, I give Deborah the credit, but it was, you know, it was a collaborative thing. I think our goal was with the winery, not to, we just wanted to create an environment that we weren't pretending to be something we're not. We just, we just wanted to do us right. So a lot of the furnishings in the winery, a lot of the things are there. I actually built. There are things in
there from my family, actually. In the main barrel room, underneath the main long table, there's a huge Karestan carpet that was in my house. Wow. On 82nd place. Really? Wow. Cool. Very cool. So we just use things that really said who we were and, and it just seems to work. It's just like home. And that's what we wanted. Probably got a lot of. You probably got a lot of comments on that. Just the wine world in Livermore Valley. But here's this giant carousel.
Carbon. Yeah. People look at it and they can't believe how old. I can't believe how old it is, how much it's held up. But yes, there's a symbol. I mean, there's, there's a, there's a couple paintings from my grandparents when I, when I was in Oakland going to nursery school. So there's just a lot of history and again, just who we were. We weren't, we weren't trying to be a Tuscan villa wannabe. We just want to do us.
And it seemed to work. Let's talk, we're going to talk about that a little bit about this lifestyle of wine and, you know, how people try to get into it. And they, they do exactly what you're saying. They build these elaborate, sometimes gaudy places to represent who they are, but that's not really who they are. They're just trying to flaunt something. But so, so how did you migrate from architecture to, to wine? And your career is amazing. We're going to talk a lot
about those things. But was it because we're in college now? When I was at college, you know, we were drinking the cheap bourbon. We didn't, you know, we didn't. My dad had a liquor store, so, you know, that was easily accessible. But when was it that you had. You got this bug? Because this is tall order. Well, it certainly wasn't during college. College. I remember my first ever taste of wine was at a, a high school camping trip. I'm like, what?
And the actual teacher. No names. The actual teacher brought a bottle of Boone's Farm apple something. And we were all able to partake in this little. This bottle of Boone's Farm. That was my very, very first taste of wine. But college was more. It was Schlitz malt liquor and tanker and tonic. It. It just wasn't a wine time. No. I mean, yes. Well, when you get out of, you know, you get out of college and you start, you know, getting into the world, if you're going to
date and you're going to go have dinner, you. You better know a little something. So I kind of developed some favorites. I, I remember Concrete Cab from Napa was a favorite at one point. And then I had a friend who, who collected wine, and he brought us over one night and he introduced us to silver oak by serving a flight of multiple vintages of silver oak. Wow. Vertical. I'm like, wow, this is good. How much does it cost? Oh, no
wonder. Yeah. When was, how long ago was that? That was probably in the mid-90s. Mid to late 90s. Yeah. Back when Silver oak was Silver oak. Yeah. No offense to silver. No. They're still selling thousands of cases. Yeah. Oh, sure. But. So we started getting out, exploring and understanding why. But then we migrated to Northern California for actually a corporate job. I was creative director for a large design firm here in.
Or not here, but in Northern California. And when we got to Northern California, it's such a difference than Southern California. It's. You're in the middle of wine country, usa, period. You know, if California were a country, we'd be like the fourth or fifth largest wine producing country in the world. And most of it's in Northern California. So you can't
drive in any direction without ending up in one country. So every weekend we tried to get out and explore because I never lived anywhere else but Southern California, inevitably we'd end up at a winery because you can't go in any direction. You can't really do it. Yeah, no. So the, the process to me sort of grew on me. It was fascinating. So Deborah and I just decided, let's, let's try to make a little wine in the
garage. You know, that's that. But that's not, you know, that curiosity is, I think, you know, it's not, it's not popular, necessary, but it does require that curiosity to peel this industry back. And I was reflecting on something you said. There was this. It's a very cerebral subject, if you want it to be. And you, you pursued it that way. There was a TV show, there was a French movie that I was watching on the plane not too long ago. And it was, you know, the, the gentleman said, wine is the
intellectual part of a meal. And that stuck with me because it is part. It is that part of the meal where you think and you wonder and you, you. This is what you're doing when you're tasting silver oak. And you. We're. We're fortunate enough to have a flight of, you know, a vertical flight of silver oak to, to stimulate your curiosity. Right. But then today, I. Mike, my saying is that wine's not a beverage, it's an experience. Yes, and that's. Right. That's a really good point.
We'll talk about that, too. But that's. There's a big chasm and leap between. This is an interesting subject, and I can't tell you how many meals I've had with people that just, you know, the, the wine geek who goes on and on and on and on about it, but, you know, would never step into trying to make it. I, you know, I've been around all my life. I would. I deliberately stayed away from trying to make it. What. Why was that so
interesting for your wife, too? You know, once you start really diving into the process of making wine, it's. It's not a difficult process to make one. You can make wine in about three steps. It's crap, but you can make it about three steps. You, you learn the next hundred steps, and it's a drinkable wine. But it's the thousand steps you learn, they really define you as a winemaker. So it's the complication of it and the under. Well, what does that step? What. What do those
steps mean? Is that experience, study, academic reading because, you know, you taught. You think about it. There's. That, there's one process where you go to enology school, you go to UC Davis, you go to Cornell, you go to Ever, you learn enology and you learn the bacteria. And then the other ones you're a seller at. And you, You're. You work your way up in the cellar. Both of those end up with, you know, rather dramatic experience to get to a product you can drink and sell.
You just decided to do it by the seat of your pants. Is that what you did? Well, my seller was, you know, my seller experience was the garage. Yes. You know, we made in the G White, made wine in the garage from 2003 to 2008 and decided to. To jump in and see if we could. See if we could sell what we make. So. So you
had enough. You felt like you could go. Like so many of the stories, particularly the early nap eventers, you know, I put the stuff in the back of this car and I drove to LA and I, you know, I hope the car was empty when I got back home. Is that the kind of thing you did? Something like that. You know, we really wanted to be able to produce wine commercially and to do that you have to have a bonded facility, which I mean a little
side step to the story. We got our wholesale distributor's license back in 2000, I don't know, four or something, which allowed us to. So we started an online based wine club. It's kind of like California Wine Club. We visit a different Appalachian each month and feature wines. But that also gave us the ability to start producing wine under our label in other bonded facilities. So we started integrating longevity into the monthly wine pack. So it really gave us a little bit of a kickstart.
So when we opened and we started what is still today, you know, longevity Wine Club, I think we lost one customer because he really just enjoyed the variety. And now that he was going to be eating all longevity, he thought yeah, I want, I'd really like the variety. But only one customer left us and that was a great, great kickstart. Man, I wish I had a success when, you know, well, one of the month club was, you know, like it was the first club
in America that was successful. We, but we peaked around 2000. I don't know, I guess it was around 2013, maybe 12 or something. The long career of this 35 year club that we had. But man, it changed a lot in the last couple of years to the point where we sold it. But you mentioned California Wine Club, Bruce Boring or Jerry Becker and. Nope, just I admired
them from afar. Yeah, they're great. I got off camera, I'll tell you some great stories but, but then again, okay, so now you've, you've made this leap, which is a huge leap and you obviously have the bug now and you want to do this and then you. One of the issues today, right now with the whole wine trade is the consolidation of, of wholesalers. A lot of small brands are getting lost in the big
books. You know, if you go with Southern or R D C or something, you're just going to get, you know, squished and you, you landed with a really large distributor and a family run organization called the Franzio Frangio Group, Bronco being their distribution arm. That's a, that's an accolade in itself to be able to, to land in that book. You know, you start a business hoping at Someday in
whatever medium that is going to pay off for you. Right? That's, that's what you're, you're hoping for, but you never know what that is. And the, the story is back in 2017, a friend of mine came over to the, to the winery and he said, we're just sitting around just having a glass of wine. And he looked at the label. He says, I don't know why I didn't think of this before. I think, I think Fred would really be interested in partnering with you and helping you expand. And I honestly, my, and I
quote, I said, fred who? And he said, he said, fred Franzia. And I said, I just laughed. I said, yeah, sure. Right, dude? Yeah. He said, can I take some bottles to him? I said, you take him anything you want. So he was my friend. Steve was the cork salesman for Bronco or one of the cork vendors for Bronco. And I also bought my course, but we had been friends for years. So he took Fred some bottles and I'm not kidding, two weeks later, I'm sitting
across the table from Fred. That's phenomenal. Yeah, that, that's scary. Well, he's like, he was, he was the king, you know, at that point. Right. I mean, I think what the, the cool little story, the indication of where I was. I'm sitting in the lobby of Fred's trailer. Believe it or not. I'm sitting in the lobby and there's this framed picture on the wall. Kind of faded color, you know, 60sish, kind of, you can tell. But there
was a plaque with all the names of the people. And there are probably 50, 60 people in this, in this plaque. And you read the names. Every single Italian family name in the wine business you can think of is in this one picture. Wow. The Martinis, the Rossis, the Gallows, the Mandavis, the Sagacios, the Fran. Everyone you can name is in this one picture. And I just thought, I, I, I, I, I, I shouldn't be here. Can I sneak out at this point? That's amazing. There's just an indication of where I
was in that moment. That's a crazy good story. He's such a, he was such a powerful man and, but a fair guy for the listeners. You know, the Franzia family is hugely responsible for the wine industry in California and, but also responsible for some pretty shady stuff. And I, I had to remind, you know, Classic Wines is their other distribution arm. And I did a lot of business with, with them and spoke with Fred many times on deals. They, they were one of the great things about Fred was he was
willing to make a deal. Right. And, you know, and he was a shrewd negotiator. But, you know, we. We did. I had a lot of wine with them, and. And he just wanted to make deals. He wanted to make it work, you know. Right. It may cost a little money on the back end, but he knew I'd come back for more in the future, so it was great. But, you know, responsible also for trying to fool the feds into thinking he was making white zinfandel out of Grenache.
Well, I. I didn't have any personal association with those experiences. You know, Fred was a. Definitely an interesting human being. He didn't have much of a filter, and he definitely told you what he thought, when he thought it. But I. I love the guy. You know, he. He saw something in me, and I met him in 17, and we formed a partnership in 2019. Oh, it was rather. It's rather young, really, when it comes to the world of wine. But. But you said something
really interesting, and I want to peel it back a little bit. There's. The wine industry is being. Not gonna say bashed, but it's. It's. There's this issue with racism, there's an issue with women in wine, and that there's only, you know, 25% of the winemakers are women, and there's only 5% are executives. And. And you think about these immigration families, all these Italians. Now, maybe there was a. There was a. Maybe there was a propensity for Italians to
stay together. But, you know, the industry really was founded by immigration, immigrants, and it was coming to this country. Yeah. We all need to remember, you know, during those times when the Italians were migrating to California, they came with grapevines in their pocket. That's what their families did. That's what they're, you know, ones before them. And for them, they. They just all had their own wine in their own house. Every. Every household
would produce their own, however small a batch. That was the house's wine. House wine. It was that house's wine. So when they migrated, they came here with grapevines in their pocket. When you look at African Americans in the wine industry, you got to think back. That's not how we got here. So we started way, way, way, way, way back behind them. And, you know, you mentioned 5% or executive, 25% are women, 1% or African American. And you. Because
that's what it sound like. You're saying that's. Because that wasn't part of the culture when you came here. There's, of course, a lot of reasons why you came here, and one of a bad mark on the history of the country. But. But generally it wasn't part of the lifestyle, because I checked in with the. I checked in for the listeners, the AAAV, which is the association of African American Vendors in 2004 or so. And I can't remember what the social issues were at the time, but I wanted to feature
a wine from your group in the club. And so at that time, we were probably buying a thousand cases of red a month and 8, 900 cases of white, something like that. And if I remember, there were like five members of the association at that point. Now, had you founded it at that point or how. So the association was founded by Mac McDonald. Mac McDonald was recognized as this phenomenal black winemaker, not because he was a black wine maker, he was making 90 point pinos from Sonoma.
And it's like he was just making gray wine. But as he says, I used to go to events and people didn't look like me. So when he did find someone that looked like him, they started to band together and share resources, you know, combine purchases to help each other out. And that's how AAAV was born. I met Mac probably around 2010, 2011, at a black History Month event in San Francisco. And we just. We just stayed in
touch and became friends. I had no idea I was being groomed as his replacement, but that's sort of the evolution. I. Deborah and I joined AAAAV in 2016. He invited us to pour at the symposium you went to this year. That. That particular year was in some Sonoma. So Deborah and I went up and we poured and we chatted, and he called me the next week. He said, look, man, we need you. So. So we joined. And then in
2018, I became vice president. And then in 2020, Max stepped down and I took over the reins. And. And that's where you land today is. That'S where I live. Correct. But I. But the thing that was inspiring about the show, and I had promised Andre I would come, and for a lot of reasons, one is I'll taste anything I can get my hands on. And that's. That's why we. That's how we get better at what we do and how we learn. But I
thought it was fascinating and I knew a little about your history. I thought, I'm going to come up and just see and wines are great. I expected no less than that and some really interesting stuff. But what I Found really interesting. When I was done, I was telling my wife, I said, you know, the concerns of almost everybody there weren't the race, the fact that
we had to or make an organization called the association of African American Vendors. They were facing the same headwinds, the same troubles, the same marketing issues, the same social networking issues, the same manufacturing issues, the same distribution issues that just about any other winery has to go through. Yeah, and that's so true. I get asked all the time, well, you know, what were your challenges as a black winemaker? And then. That's exactly right. The same
challenges of everybody else making wine. You better make good wine. You, you know, you better get it marketed well, you better get it placed well. Because, you know, look, when you're on the shelf, unless, you know, you don't know. So that's right. It better. I mean, that's where we're at a point now where all of our longevity portfolio that's now internationally distributed, the entire portfolio of longevity is, is 91 or more. So we're in a really
good place with our portfolio. I'm really happy about that. But yeah, we got to make wine. Just as you can't rely on, you know, a niche and be successful in this business. Well, that's interesting point though. So the, the niche is that we're African American winemakers, which is
really cool. And you know, I think my point earlier about the Italians was, I don't know where, I'm not going to call it segregation, but sort of the, the African American community outside looking into the wine industry, wondering, you know, what this is all about, was part of, you know, the Italians, let's face it, the Italians kind of when they get involved with an industry to get to kind of take over. Right. So, but I mean, that wasn't deliberate, obviously, but it is an intimidating subject
for everybody. And then for a community of minority like the African Americans to say, you know, I think we want to do this and you make great strides. I mean, I understand there's like two or three hundred members now in the, in the group truth. There's the, there's around 300 members of which in this country there's about a hundred either black owned wineries or black winemakers, our black wine brands in the, in the country today, which, you know, at 100 out of 10,000 will do the
math. Right? Yeah. Right. It's very small, so, yeah, very small amount. But in the end, we got to make good wine just like everybody else has to make good wine. Yeah, you can't, you're right. You can't rely on that. No, you cannot. I mean, it's hard enough. There's a lot of really, really good wine out there that doesn't get any traction ever. No matter what, no matter who made it. Right, right. Correct. It's a tough industry. Especially.
So that landing with the Franzi is, you know, I wanna, it was a great story that you just told about, you know, sitting with them and seeing these people on the, in the picture and, and realizing, you know, where you're at. I mean, that's kind of what's happening, right? Like, wow, how did I get here? That's, that was exactly it. And be. And be successful. And so when you mentioned worldwide, what's. Is that change?
Is that new that you've gone international? We've been shipping to Japan, I think, for a couple years. We've been shipping to the United Kingdom for a couple years. I, I would like to. International markets are really fickle market, so I mean, I'd like to do more, but it's, it's, it's definitely an interesting market to deal with. So we're gonna, we're keep picking at it and see if we can do more. But, you know, we're really relying upon our partnership with, you know, Bronco and RNDC here
to really fulfill the goals we're trying to reach. You know, it's interesting because usually, at least in today's world, if I wanted to set out and make wine, actually, I do have a license to. I have an O2, actually. Okay, well, but there you go. I have a fruit press around here somewhere. But, you know, typically, even with pedigree kids that are up in Napa, who, you know, went to Napa High School, you know, they, they're not going to get a free hall pass
to get into a book. They, they have to go earn that stripe, which is typically getting, let's say 100 placements on their own. They take their wine to drive it around. They, they put it in a restaurant, they put it in a store, and then they go to a wholesaler and say, Look, I've got 100 places. Because most wholesalers aren't going to build your brand right. You get to build the brand right. And then they'll take it over once,
once you have enough traction that they feel that they can make some money. And even today I, I find that distributors, I mean, they're, look, they're, they're great, but they're pretty much right paper. That's, that's kind of the, the Goal to build a brand, you've got to be out there in the market. You've got to be out there in the field. You know, thank goodness
I get to work with some really great people at Bronco that are. That are in the field pushing the brand and, you know, pulling things like, you know, next week's wine, dinner together or market visits. There's just a whole itinerary for me when I get there. So I've got a lot of help, which is great, but, you know, but I got to. I got to be there to really make the next level of difference. They're doing a great job, but, you know, my hit rate if
I walk in the door is 100%, so. But there's only one of me. Well, that's a, That's a really, really good point. And I've done a lot of these dinners over the years, and the, the number one thing, whether it was Gwanak or the Langtree family or whoever it was that was coming down to do a tasting with me or dinner is like, let's sell some wine. Right? Like, I love doing this. And, I
mean, you have to feel like a little bit of a celebrity, right? When you walk into a room like that and everybody's hanging on every word you said and they showed up and paid money to hear you speak and, and, and eat and have a meal with you, it's. It is a little surreal, a little different from what I. You know, I didn't expect that to be part of the gig, but, yeah, it's a. It's a little bit like that. I mean, I'm. I'm getting to know some great people, you know, members of the aaav. Dwayne
Wade's a member. John Legend's a member. Yeah, so it's a. It's an interesting world, but you're right. It's about moving cases. We just did a. Just a small wine dinner at a country club in, In Florida. I think There were about 18 tickets that were bought, but we sold 20 cases. Wow, that's pretty. I know, right? So normally it's the other way around, but, yeah, being there, it makes all the difference in the world. What were some of the headwinds that you didn't expect
when you started this? Like, you did it as a hobby? You. I don't like, did you expect the margins to be as difficult as they are, or did you. Were there headwinds that you. That you encountered that you thought were racially motivated? I mean, was there something that just said, wow, I Didn't expect this, but let's go at it. So when we opened in Livermore, they're really. I didn't face any really real racial barriers. Now I didn't. Now, I'm not saying others
don't, but personally, I didn't. I think, going back to our previous conversation, it's the same as everybody else. I think for me, you know, jumping into wine at 40 something, as far as, you know, producing wine for others, there's so much you don't know. Yeah. You know, I didn't go. I don't have a degree in analogy. You know, I never went for viticulture and analogy, which my son is actually doing now. So I had to learn everything in the school of hard knocks, having
mentors making mistakes. And I remember saying to myself one time, I just want to learn how to make wine so I don't have to know how to fix stuff. I just know how to make it so I don't have to fix. Yeah. So that's a noble pursuit. That is a great pursuit. So, yeah, there's always obstacles in the way. I mean, even today, there's obstacles, as you well know, with the, you know, the whole N A or non A movement that's happening, the restructuring of and moving of all the distributors.
You know, every. Everybody's going through sort of a re something, which I'm just hoping that it settles down so we can, you know, get to work. Well, I think you are on that path. And I get this question all the time as well, you know, as a DTC consultant, because we've done it all here. We've. We've seen it all. We've. I sent. My last full year in business, I sent 33 million emails out. You know, we were all about those kinds of things. And I think what
you're doing in the. In your Livermore facility, that and these dinners is really what used to happen with this badge here. This is Les Ami Devan. It was my dad's badge when he had a. A chapter in 1975. Wow. And. And people would come together. Mandavi would show up and taste with them. They'd have these dinners that women were dressed up. You know, they went. In my case, we lived in the beach area, so they go to Marine Land at their banquet room. And the experiential side of wine is
the slow grind. Wine's a slow business. I mean, it's once a year. Right. You only get one chance a year to do it. One shot. The marketing of. It's pretty much the same. And I think that is pulling back because the barrage of messaging on the social side of things and. And the generational gap between wine buyers and, you know, what's on the marketplace is. Has to find its bottom, and then it'll rebuild through things. Like what you're doing with the experience of wine
becomes the. The experience of wine rather than the package or a can or a Tetra pack or whatever silly things are going on out there. Well, you're constantly trying to hone in on that target, but the target keeps. Moving, and that's because it moves. The. The marketing of wine can move so fast. Like, let's just take non Elk for a second. I had the pleasure of. And when cans first came out, I had the experience to taste a wine that was bottled from the same vineyard. The same
manufacturing one went in the can, and some of it went into a bottle. I got to taste those side by side, and they were different wines, you know, dramatically different, but they were different. And I also had the chance recently to taste the same vineyard designated Pinot Noir. Non alk version of it and the alk version of it. I mean, a huge difference. I mean, they don't. I mean. Right. And I don't. I have this romantic thing like, why would you drink a non Al wine
when they're. They're just not any good? There's. They're not pleasant. Right. It's not. Going to the Florida Country Club and having a glass of wine, you know, with Phil Long at a dinner, you. You can't do it. It doesn't. It doesn't work that way. And I've not tasted very many NA wines, but the movement itself is huge. There's. There's mocktail bars opening all over
the place. Like, really? I've never seen one. Yeah, we've got. There's at least two new ones here in D.C. that just serve mocktails. You know, I don't. Maybe I'm old. We're both in that same boat, man. So, again, the target keeps moving. Do you. Is it a fad? Is it a trend? Is it a. The direction? Who knows? Like I said, the target doesn't stay in one place. Well, I kind of feel like it's like the Boone's Farm, you know, it's gonna come and go. The
Matuse. Well, Lancers is still around, I think, but all those various blips in. In the wine trade, that spike in valley, and you know, that they just come from seasonal things and not seasonal being along. Potentially a long thing. Because the non Al people are pushing it hard and that's fine. And I, we went to the fancy food show in Vegas a couple years ago, and the main push for beverage at that show, particular show, was non al distilled spirits and
non alcohol. But again. And I had this conversation yesterday with a woman who's. Who's taken the Bible and all the references to wine and has crafted a message about wine and the human soul and Christianity and the Bible. And I've always tried to define why wine has such a connection to the human soul. It's almost indescribable. I've never had a winemaker explain exactly why he thinks the grape is this conduit that is like no other beverage. White Claw is
not going to do it for you in that regard. Right. So wine has a unique place. I think it does. And it kind of goes back to it defining, you know, when I said experience. Well, what. What does that mean? Well, it means it's not just about the beverage and the nuances and the palate and the sense. It's not. It's about where you were. It's about who you're with. It's about the time you had it. It's about that memory of the
experience. It's not just the wine. The wines helping really create an experience that you take with you where you're right, you're not going to get that from a can of butt. It's just, no, it's not gonna happen. Or Schliss, for that matter. Exactly. So I, you know, that's how I define it. It's probably pretty poor, the defense definition, but it really is about the experience. Well, let's just take. You're talking about Dwayne Wade and John Legend have their. Have. Have their
participation in the industry and their propensity towards wine. And I've. I've had both. I think they're great. I sold a lot of John Legend wines here. Love when we were. When I was selling under the Boise group. Has that had an effect on the popularity of wine in the African American community and engaged more discussion, more curiosity? Oh, for sure. Any, you know, any engagement from the culture. The more, the more representation we have, you know, the better it's going to be.
The problem is there's just not that much of it, so to speak. So. So that's, you know, one of the reasons we struggle. But yeah, I mean, I. John and I are good friends. I had his wine great. I'm great friends with Jean Charles. They're all, you know, big supporters of Aaaav. So, no, I think it's a positive for, you know, there's the people that have the money that can do it that way, and there's the people like me who.
Who didn't and did it that way. So it doesn't really matter in the end, you know, we're stronger together than we are apart. That's a good point. This. The whole is greater than the sum of its parts. Right. I have to say, whenever we. We're in Napa quite frequently, and we hang in Yonville typically, and if I have friends that come or visit us, I have to take them to Boisse's atelier there because it's just such a departure from what people think the wine industry is about.
Yeah, it's a little. It's a little different. And this is the came down version. I. I hear the version he wanted to open was a little too risque, and he had to tone it down a bit. Yeah, I had this behind me, behind the wall. You see there. There's a. There was. My wine shop was there, and. And. And I actually went with this sort of graffiti, you know, grunge look. It's
really cool, actually. I had a graffiti artist come in and do it. But when you walked into the building, I was trying to copy the Raymond Red room that John Charles created. And my wife's like. And there's an auction house down here called R.L. spear, and they have. It's mostly props they. They just. They commissioned with prop houses. And so these giant stuffed white polar bears came up for sale. And I already had painted the room this red, you know, this. This
bodello red. And my wife's like, what are you doing? I said, I want to be like Jean Charles. And so fortunately, she. For her, the bear went for more than I was willing to pay. So we did not have a giant white stuffed polar bear in the wine shop. But, you know, I think those. I think those are part of the industry. I think you need to do those things. I mean, that people accuse John Charles of ruining Buena Vista because it was such a historical place in Sonoma and turning it Frenchie.
But you know what? I think that's part of the industry. The wines are good. They're solid. He knows what he's doing in that regard. I love his father's burgundies. You know, we. We. We bring our personality to the table, and that's. I think that's perfectly fine to do that. Yeah. When I first saw the. The Napoleon signs walking up the walk at Bu. I'm like, oh, my God, what's happened? But after I got to be friends with Jo, I've taken people there, and it's still a great winery.
Great. Now you get it. We even. We've even thought about using it as a wedding venue. So we'll. Wow. Yeah. So we'll see. So what's. What's next with longevity? What do you. What. What do you set your sights on? I know that we're trying to weather this cycle here, and it will happen. And I think my general advice to most of the wineries that are doing this is just stay the course. But what. What's on the horizon? More varietals,
techniques? What are you working on? You know, it's interesting when you're partnered with somebody like a Franzi family or a Bronco, you know, you have opportunities aren't necessarily presented. They weren't presented to me before. So, you know, line extensions. We can present a line extension based on. On the need. Not necessarily because we decided to plant, you know, eight years ago, this particular varietal, so we can kind of move with the industry. You know, we've gone through
an interesting transition. One of Fred's love was the Helix cork. So when we debuted nationally, we debuted with the Helix cork. His cork didn't work. It worked as a product. It didn't work as a product. The public embraced. Yep. So once we abandoned that and our scores shot up, you know, we're just now starting to get traction. But just as you start to get real traction, you know, like, RN DC is restructured three times in the last 18 months, that.
That doesn't help. Right. You know, we've got a new CEO at Bronco. You know, he's. He's figured out his stride. So, you know, and on top of that, the market is what the market is. And, you know, if you have. If you have deletes on any chain to get back though that shelf space, it's a. It's a. It's a steep uphill climb. So, yeah, Helix didn't help with that. But. But like I said, I think we're in a really good place now. I think we're. We've
addressed all of the issues, and we. We just got to really just keep pedaling right now, and I think we're gonna. We're gonna get to where we need to be. I didn't know that that was his product. I remember that. I remember it. I saw a few of them come through here. You know, the one thing about wine, the month Club was. And I started on Tuesday mornings. Every morning for 35 years. Tuesdays, pure habit. I would start tasting wine nine to two. And you saw everything, right? I mean you saw
every trend and everything that was contemporary or not working. I saw flavor to everything. I mean it was just unbelievable what would come through the doors here. And I would made sure I, I tasted it, you know, whether it was. Had any potential at all to be in the club. It didn't matter. I would
just taste it. But you said something. I wanted to bring this up. Chastity Cooper posted the Constellation article about Constellation Brands possibly selling off their, their wine sect sector which includes Mondavi and some amazing brands. And I. You know how you post. If somebody posts something, you make a reply. Usually the reply goes unnoticed or just somebody responds once like the author of the article. But the most I had like eight people respond to what I wrote after she
posted it. And I wrote the margins suck. There's a generation, generational gap, dip in sales. There was too much crap put on the market that flooded and produce a sour taste for wine, pun intended. But the good news is the product is 12,000 years, 12,000 years old. It's probably not going anywhere. Right. And I think that's the stay the course part of the conversation. I don't think wine's going anywhere. You know, people say it, it's, it's cyclical, you know, kind of like global warming.
If it's cyclical, it's definitely not revisiting anywhere it's been before. No, that's true. Like I said, it's a movement. You got to figure it out. You just have to, you gotta bob and weave and you've got to anticipate the unexpected and, and adjust, you know, innovate, adapt and overcome as they said in the movie. So that's what you've got to keep doing. There is. And we're out of time here. But I do want to
bring this up. There was. There is a contemporary movement there, younger folks in the industry that haven't gone through the school of hard knocks like you have and I have and had to suffer through these cycles and understand. Try to try to figure out what the next step is. Because the agriculture is slow and as we talked about it's one time a year and you, you're thinking
five to seven years out of what you're going to be doing and. Right. If the marketplace doesn't cooperate, you know, you, you've got decisions to make. Correct. But one of the things is innovation. Somebody posted an Article about they visited Paris wine and this Guy had sold 24 million bottles in six month of, you know, peach flavored wine. And, and it was fermented grape juice, but nothing. You can't call it wine in the sense of what you and I are
talking about. And so I always wonder what you thought of like this. What is this innovation idea? What does it mean? What does that mean? Let's innovate. Does it mean we innovate at the winery and create a better version of what we are? Or does it mean we go after packaging ideas and we have, you know, thinner cans or taller bottles or whatever those they're going on. What, what would that mean to you? Is there any thought process on
innovation in this industry? I mean, if you, it's interesting. Innovation in this industry is a long, slow train, right? If you look at a bottle of wine, if there was no label on the bottle and no capsule, that exact bottle, the only development there was was when they figured out that they should make a punt so it would stand up straight. Right. Other than that change, that was the innovative part of the bottle. So there hasn't been a lot of innovation.
You know, obviously labels are here, they're all over the place and how you label the bottle, there's many ways you can do that now, but overall there's not a lot of innovation. So coming out with, you know, what do you do and so call it. Why? Well, you can do, you know, we have a label called Four Hearts, which is slightly frizz a better for you flavored Moscato available Total Wine. There's a black cherry flavor and there's a honeydew melon flavor.
Again, a little bit different, you know, different audience. You know, four and a half percent alcohol, 80 calories a glass or something. So it's not, it's. That's innovative. You know, people are coming. Like I saw Matua has mature, you know, New Zealand SA Blanc, but they also have one called Lighter which is like eight. I, I think, don't quote me, eight something alcohol and
less calories. That's right, yeah. So there's always going to be these little variations that continue to change to try to answer the consumer's desire at the time. Like, like right now, like the big over the top alcohol wines are coming into focus. Why are people buying 16 and a half percent alcohol wine? I know, right? I don't get it. But it's, but it's a thing. But it's a different direction than what the other direction was. Correct. It's A totally different
direction. So I think innovation within the industry is, is those sort of idiosyncrasies rather than. I mean we've all seen somebody. You put wine in a box that's only so successful. You put wine in a can that's only so successful. Overall, the bottles aren't going away, you know. And like I said, the punt was the genius. Yeah, that was big. And the cork, you know, that was it. Madame Clico did. But that's a. Interesting thought because I wonder.
I contacted, Remember Ariel, the, the non alkal wine that's been. I mean I was stocking non alkaline in my dad's wine shop. So it's not new. Right. It's been around. It's always been the same suffer, suffer. You suffer through drinking a glass of it. But I contacted, I think it was Rodney Strong makes that particular brand. And I go, he goes, it's. It's 3% of our sales, you know. And so I'm wondering if, if any of these things ever become
the major traction. These, these innovative ideas, flavored wines, cans, Tetra packs, whatever, ever become a major part of the sales volume of a regular brand like Longevity, that makes Cabernet and makes Infinil mix, whatever. And we have, you have to have these other things on the shelf. Like you said, total wine. Yeah. I think those customers, pardon the pun, the longevity of wine is going to be. What we know is wine. I think that's it. Like you said, the
non alks, they're going to come and they're going. They're being introduced to a new audience for all intents and purposes. So they're not the ones that sort of have that background inherent in them of knowing what other wines are like. And if they get on board with the non elk and they think this is good for you and this is what wine tastes like because they really don't
have any experience what wine tastes like. Right. And I think it's going to be around to a small degree, but I think it's going to hit little blips and, and come and go. Just. I think they're going to be the little innovative things. They're going to be temporary blips on the scale. Then I don't think they're going to have a huge long term trajectory like, like a normal bottle of wine would. That's a. I think that's what I think. That's my opinion.
Well, it's been a wonderful conversation. We're already at 50 minutes. So happy we had a chance to connect and get you. Catch you away here in Maryland. Good luck with your wine. Dinner coming up. Oh, thank you. Be successful, be a lot of fun. I'd love to visit one of those. I'd love to come see Livermore. I've not been up in years. Are you guys putting on another tasting for the AAAB again soon? Yes, and we're in the planning stages of the next symposium. I. I don't know if we have a date
but as soon as we do we'll be publishing it for sure. And now we're going to. Was that open to the public? I don't think it was. Was it? I believe it was. Yeah, it was open to the public. Okay. Again thanks for the time today and fascinating conversation and I hope we get a chance to shake hands again next time we other. Yeah, I look forward to it. Thanks a lot, Paul. Cheers.