In my selections, I try to cover a quite broad price range because I truly believe that wine is for everybody. It's not something that only people who are eager to pay 80 bucks a bottle, they should get a good wine. I think there are many good wines. 15, 20, 25, €30 or 30 bucks. My mission is really to try to find good wines also for a good price because I truly believe that wine is for everybody.
Sit back and grab a glass. It's Wine Talks with Paul K. Hey, welcome to Wine Talks with Paul K. And we are in studio today in Southern California. Beautiful day, actually, it's kind of cold today. About to have a conversation with Claudia Caligari at the Tuscan coast as she's looking at the ocean deep in the night. Have a listen to a show I just released on Zach Arman. He had brought to America the Armenian wine trade. He's opened up in
28 states. It's a crazy good conversation about how to get started in distribution in America, though a very difficult industry. But now while we're here, we're here to have a conversation with Claudia Caligari. Welcome to the show. Thank you, Paul. Great pronunciation, by the way. Thank you. Well, we, well, I, I, I do speak French, but my Italian is probably completely worthless. And I appre. But I appreciate the compliment
you are with. You call yourself the Tuscana. And this is what brought me to you on LinkedIn was the Tuscana Wine Club. But as well, you have a personal brand called Caligati Wine Room. Is that what it's called? That is correct, yes. And this is where you talk about all things wine. But the Tuscan Wine Club is what intrigued me because I think I sent you a message early on about like, oh, you know, and you said, well, I don't really, we're just. How old is the club? Well,
it's about two years now. Yeah. Two years. Well, okay. So not very long. Yeah, it takes a little while. Yeah. Because I came from this industry of direct to consumer marketing and it really, what it is, it's kind of an interesting irony that we're faced with as a wine club subscription model because really probably you set out, or let me, you can answer the question. Did you set out to expose the drinking public, whether it's American or Italian, to what, the boutique side of Tuscan
wines? What's the, what's the objective? That, that's correct. Really, the, the reason why I actually started this, this club and this whole idea of, of the discount of wine club is because I have a Long experience in the wine industry. I've been working in wineries for over 16 years. And therefore I had many people, many contacts, many customers, friends at the end of the day who always reached out to me asking about suggestions for, you know, niche wineries, boutique labels.
And I would suggest so many nice wines. And they always told me, oh, nice, but we cannot find it in the States. So it was a little bit frustrating to see that only the predominantly the big brands reach international shelves. And so I thought, since in my experience I've met so many wineries, so many nice, authentic producers, I thought, why do I not come up with a model that connects small wineries with wine lovers just by shipping direct to consumer, from Italy to whenever, wherever in the
world, nearly worldwide, really. This seems like, well, and correct me if I'm wrong, that the idea was good, but the execution was probably not so simple. Meaning, did you have. I mean, we already know the headwinds. Go ahead. It's actually growing. I'm, I'm pretty, pretty happy about it. Let me say that I come from the marketing world, so I've been in marketing all of my life in wines. And for me it was very easy or it was natural to come up
with strategies and promotion. But one thing is to create a strategy and to plan an idea or a creative event. The other thing is to convert that into actual sales. And so that's the challenge that I'm facing myself, mostly due to the fact that I've never done it before. So I've always been just a marketeer. However, it's working, it's picking up, but it's not easy, as you correctly say, because there are so much digital
competitions. I do have the feeling that my in person relationship, when I meet people, either in the US when I come for events, or when I come here touring the region, sales is really easy because they get to meet me, they see me, they can feel or know firsthand my choices, and therefore they trust immediately. I once said that in person activities have a 90% conversion rate because it's nearly impossible that anybody I know and I meet in person
do not buy something at the end of the experience. But digital, it's a different thing. The competition is extremely high. The trust of people, it's something that you need to build over time. And therefore that's something a little bit challenging. Let's delve into that because it's kind of an interesting situation in that you're in Italy and you find these interesting wines from these boutique wineries, which I think would play out in any
wine region of the world. But if it wasn't for the digital world, this would be almost an impossibility to market in America and get traction with any kind of expediency. Because you did it, you got traction in two years. But at the same time, yes. The barrage of messages for the consumer on their phone and in their computer and the wine itself. Once you click on a wine ad, you're going to get all kinds of wine ads that you are competing. What, what's your pitch? What are
you trying to sell them? I'm not competing with any E commerce because I don't have the power for that. What I'm trying to really do is to build my personal brand. So I'm trying to make sure that people really trust my choices and they're happy and really happy to subscribe because once every four months or six months, they receive a shipment from me and it's always new, new wines that I personally select for for them. So
taking into consideration their personal profile. So something a little bit more customized than an E Commerce, you know, that's something that I really don't, I don't consider as a competition because it's a completely different service. What I do, what I, that I have a CRM where I keep track of all the preferences of my customers. And before any new shipment, I send out a survey to see what they prefer from the previous shipments so that I can fine tune the
next. And over time, I mean it's just two years, I already have quite a good history of my consumer profile, tasting profile or preferences. Yeah, it's a great work. I mean that's hard work and you are being successful at it. But you know, I, I did it for so long, like I said. And even though you are, I'll put another context. When I started doing it myself in 1988, I never
thought the wineries, for instance, were my competition. The winery experience for somebody who visits Napa Valley and joins a club is because they did that. And so I would, I never considered them competition. But, but that was before the digital age. And now no matter what you do, if you're trying to attract somebody to your club, they're gonna be barraged with other E commerce clubs, wineries, because the algorithms are gonna suggest to their advertising platform
to deliver a message. And so you're, are you differentiating yourself from those by saying, look, I'm on the ground here in Tuscany, I am creating these brands, you're never going to see them in America. And taking that the Next step. How do you do that? Well, I have a number of, of activities in my personal strategic plan. As I said earlier, in person activities
are the one that works the most. So I'm really trying to push my in person events either in, in Italy, but mostly in the US Last year I did a tour in December where I organized five events and in ten days presented four labels which I selected to nearly 600 people in person. Right. So those was really successful because again, conversion rate in that case was really high.
And of course all those people that I meet in person then become at some point either repeated customers or they come to Italy sooner or later and then they reached out to me because, because they had a very good time at the event or they refer me to a friend who is coming to Italy. So it's a good, you know, a good, it's a good promotional tool which I would like to increase in the future.
So as a matter of fact, I'm talking right now with an event agencies or with an agency in the US to help me find events opportunities in the US because that really what I think it's the most successful thing. And then the hospitality and touring of the region. Winery trees here in Italy, in Tuscany. It's also working very well because even if people just hear about it and see the videos and the posts about it, they might become customers because what they see what somebody else did and
so they, you know, it's engaging even if, you know. I organized last year a wine retreat at Toscana Wine Retreat, which was an immersive experience of five days, four nights, all around wine education. We had like 12 people, not, not a lot, but the echo around it was really high. So people saw the videos, were getting excited as me signed up for the next dates. And so I'm trying to
organize. I mean, as I said, I come from marketing, so I'm not a typical salesperson just trying to, you know, put the price and try to sell it. I'm not like that. I'm trying to create, yeah. Creative activities that help me promoting myself and
my wines. That's really, it's funny you said that because generationally I have been watching on Facebook and Instagram and LinkedIn and all the different platforms a younger generation who probably has no sales skills in the sense of I spent my life selling stuff and it is a unique, you know, outlook on life and the, the number one premise of any sales organization. There's a guy in America who, who, who has more. I mean, the number of times I've heard His radio added,
you know, nauseating. But he's talking about the most basic principles of salesmanship, which is understanding the customer's needs, where they're coming from, and, and satisfying those needs from what you have in your quiver and what you have in your arsenal of things to give. And if, if they don't align, then possibly the need of the consumer needs to be shifted in order to align with you. And that's, that's all it
is. It's not a complicated thing. And I'm reading that they think this is such an enormous idea that we have to meet the consumer where they live and blah, blah. That's been done for the, you know, history of salesmanship. And they act like it's a new idea. But your thing, this is a fascinating to me because you're coming to America. This is a lot of, of work and, and logistics and planning, and then you end up
with a 90 conversion rate. Meaning of the 600 people, probably 540 of them signed up for your club. Or place an order, or place a. Single order, or place an order. Yeah. When my dad started this in the 70s, in 1984, he learned about something similar to that, of course, in a different era, and that was showing up at a trade fair. And in, in America, we have these state fairs and county
fairs and you go to them and there's always wine. And so he set up a booth and he went from 400 members in 1984 to 800 members in 20 days. Wow. And this became our regular. I have a point to this, by the way. Our regular form of marketing from 1985 to 2007. Interesting. Where we would just go to every weekend to some kind of show. In other words, what you're doing an experience for somebody to have a conversation, to shake their
hand, to meet these people. Yeah. Because what does that do? That actually makes the customer loyal to you because they remember this handshake and this experience. And that changed when Groupon started and the Internet started and that became more difficult. And I. What I'm intrigued by is it sounds like based on what you're doing, what I've read, it's coming back to that. It's coming back to this experience. Yeah. I think there is just too much available and everything look very good
online. Everything look gorgeous because, you know, with the AI, with the graphic design, everything looks nice. But people, or fewer and fewer people trust what they see. Really. So when they have the chance to meet someone in person and shake their hands, they really trust it. I mean, you Have a loyal customer forever if you are good at following up and getting back and so and so. But I truly believe about that personal touch. And that's where
I base my business really. So that's why I would like to increase my events next year, in the next years. That's also why I'm doing my diploma with the WSDT school. I just want to build a little bit even more my authority. Even if I've been working in the business now for 18 years. But a name on a business card always helps. So I'm doing the diploma at wsct. Sure. That's great. Yeah. And you're becoming. And this is. There's another brand, it's
called Perath. That was around when I was starting this industry and this guy was doing home wine tastings and they became very successful. He became a very large organization, a different era of life. So you can't really compare them. But it sounds like you're becoming the direct to consumer arm of smaller wineries. Yes, because you mentioned earlier that you realize that wineries were your competitors. But I don't feel that way because the wineries I normally work
with do not have their own wine club. They don't have the organization to promote themselves to direct to consumer. Not much, at least. And therefore they see me really as a partner when I bring a label to an event, to a tasting. They are very supportive there because I act as an ambassador, you know, I just don't list a wine on, on. On a website. I talk about it, I show the pictures. I try to share the passion behind it. I really make a lot of storytelling, which is what I have.
I'm lucky enough to see every time I visit those people. So it's really true, you know, it's really something that I, I live firsthand and therefore they are very supportive with my venture. I don't work with many wineries right now, probably around 20, 25 in Tuscany, that I work on with on a regular basis. But we have already built a quite strong relationship. It's actually the opposite. I didn't, I didn't think wineries were my competitors because of basically what you're doing now, which
is creating an experience. Wineries are not competitors because I didn't have the. The value of show of a wine, of a person coming into my store. Well, we did have a store. But coming into my tasting room, for instance, and tasting a wine and then remembering that the rest of their life, in fact. I have an anecdotal story of a friend of mine. This is years ago. Who went to Italy, who was in Tuscany, who shared a glass of Chianti Classico with somebody and fell in love with it as
they're sitting. Maybe they're in Rome, maybe they're in Florence. I don't know where they're exactly. And they asked me to get them the wine, and I did. And they. With, oddly, this particular brand that tasted was available in America. Okay, so, no, you know what? This is actually funnier. They had it there, they took a picture, asked me if I could get it, and then I got it for them. They said it doesn't taste the same. Oh, wow. That happens quite often. I go, because you're not on
vacation. Yeah, but. So it's funny that you tell me this, because I've heard a couple of times this theory, and last time when I was in the US In December, someone told. Specifically told me, well, I really like this wine. I taste it in America. So if you ship it from Italy, it will taste the same. Okay, that's an interesting point of view. That's a total. Yeah, that's totally right. And the other one, which is even
funnier, he. This other couple had a wine at a restaurant, and they ordered it from Italy, and it came to America, and it got sent back because the. The licensing wasn't in place. And then they asked if they could use my import license to bring it here, which I did for them. And so they. They picked it up. And I said, by the way, where did you have this? He said, in New York. I go, what do you mean? He goes, yeah, we had a restaurant in
New York. I said, are you trying to tell me you had a restaurant, a wine in New York, but you ordered from Italy, and then you went through months of. Of turmoil to. To land it here when it was already here in America? And I could have gotten it the next day, probably or two days later. They're like, no, we didn't know that, you know, but that's why Tuscany. You grew up there? No, I actually moved to Tuscany in 2008.
It was my second working experience in wineries, and I've been hired by a large winery in Montalcino called Bamfi, you probably know. Oh, I know May. What's her name? May. Christina May. Cristina. May Cristina Mariani. May. Yes. Lovely, Lovely woman. Yes. I've been working. So I moved to Tuscany for. For wine. Really? For. For my job, for work. And I will be working there for 12 years before I moved to the coast to work in the
Bulgari region. And work for Marilisa Allegrini, another wonderful Italian woman of wine. And, and yeah, after that experience and after, you know, what I learned along the way, I decided to start up my own business. You know, it's interesting you said women and wine because I interviewed Emilia Nardi from Sylvia Nardi and, and Montecino. I had Christina May on the
show when she was here in la. And you know, the woman and wine conversation is, it's important that this month it's a, an awareness issue this month, but for a long time it was highlighted and that not only because there was a small amount of women making wine, but they're even less percentage wise in executive roles, entrepreneurial roles and you know, CEO type roles. And that's changed some. I sent off a young intern here at the Wine of the Month club to Cornell. She went to, she
got accepted to Cornell Enology School. And, and she's. Her job was to write all the talking points for the podcast I did with women at the time couple years ago. And is there, is there an awareness in Italy for women in wine and has it been a tougher road for women in wine in Italy? Well, in a production side it is traditionally male, I have to say there is now a shift. There are new winemakers, female winemakers. It's changing, but I would say that it's still a pretty much male
area. If we talk about marketing, promotion, sales even, I think the women's share has been growing dramatically over the last 20 years and now probably it's not even. But there is a very large part of it. And I've been asked many times this question about my point of view on women and wine. And personally I always found it as a plus for myself working as a marketeer. So marketing promotion, events, I've always, I mean, I never had
a problem. I always find that being a woman was just a plus in this part. And it's nice to see that there are so many new female venture. Actually, a couple of months ago I helped out an American importer build up her wine portfolio from Tuscany and, and she specifically asked for wineries run by women, which was a very interesting project to work on. So there are, there are many, there are many around and there is, I think that the future is bright.
There's so much, there's not much distinction really anymore. I think, I think, I think that the lines have been blurred. Actually the best comment was from a woman winemaker in Napa who I spoke with and she said, I don't even know why we have to even Bring it up like. Yeah. Why? Is it part of the discussion? Yeah, but at the same time, it is Women in Wine Month or something right now here in America. And. Yeah, and there are a lot of like, association
groups, events. I don't belong to any of them really, because it's, it's just normal to be a woman in the business, you know. And so, I mean, I, I don't dislike creating networks, of course, but it's not my. Yeah, it's not my goal. It's. I had a wonderful young girl on the show. She was a young black girl and she was in Oakland and she was making wine from flowers. Oh, it was a fascinating conversation. And I said, have you, have you run into any, you know, sexism?
She says, not only sexism, racism and grape supremacy. Okay. Like, well, I've never heard that before. And what she meant was when she would go into a wine shop with her flower, wine based on flowers, and then the, the proprietor would say, well, we only buy wine that's made from grapes. I go, that's pretty funny. So when you, when you bring your wines to, to America. Now I'm gonna come clean on something. We were in Tuscany. We were actually near Cortona.
And we, I had a great time in Cortona. I went with the wine shop owner and we, we had a lot of fun. But we went on this little wine tour and I was compelled to buy wine. And my wife was like, why are you buying wine? You have a warehouse full of wine. I said, well, we're out, you know, and it had a little bit of character. It's satisfactory. But by the time I brought it here and it cost me a lot of money for what would have been just regular old generic California based wine,
it was undrinkable. I mean, I couldn't drink it. I threw it all away. I wouldn't even give it away. It was, it was just not good, which just wasn't made well. It wasn't like it was a bad bottle. It was all just not drinkable. And so the point I'm making is, you know, this is a complicated logistical issue. Here you are in Italy, you get small makers, you got to get the stuff on the boat and you got to
get it to land in America. You must use a clearinghouse or distributor in America to, to get it in the thing and then you have to ship it to somebody or are you packaging it there and shipping it direct? Yes. Really direct? Yes. So direct to consumer in Italy has become such a big thing. Directly from wineries. To, to the final consumer that now there are logistic companies in Italy that
take care of the whole journey of the wine. So they pack it here in a very safe container with plastic insert inside so that you make sure that the bottle will not break first of all. And also the temperature will be better over time. And what this logistic do is to all the free tiers of the system so they have a federal license, they have a distribution license and a connection with the local retailers
just to dispatch the wines. So everything is completely legal but it's shipped direct from Italy and is shipped on a plane. So is. I'll tell you, I did this for, like I said, a long time and I was not legal. I mean it was mostly legal. I mean, I don't know if that's even a legitimate term, mostly legal. Okay. But my licensing allowed me to do all that I was able to ship into those
states. I did legitimately. I paid the taxes on the wine, etc. But I sort of fudged the rules on what I could ship and what I couldn't ship. So Sounds like it's easier to ship from Italy than it is. Well, I don't go into the retail system so my, my shipment is a direct to consumer so it will not touch the retail system. And, and ye they have developed or they have made agreements with local retailers to make sure that all the paperwork is done accordingly. How do, how do you find your customers?
Well, I started with my personal connections as I said. Giving up any trade secrets now? Well, I started with my personal connection. First of all I spend a lot of time on LinkedIn because I decided that it's my number one platform. I'm a sole entrepreneur so I don't have the time to work on every social media ever right now. Maybe in the future I will if I will have some help. But right now I'm Quite active on LinkedIn and I do a lot
of networking as I said. So I'm trying to really find any opportunities I can get to be in front of the people either with tours or these speaking gigs they call you call it, which has proven very successful. Last year I did, as I said, five events. That was my second time actually the first time it was a good try but not perfect. So last year I did some speaking coaching, speaking session and it was really successful, really standing ovation at the end of the show. So it was very.
Yeah. What was the subject of that? What was the subject of that presentation? Well, what I do in these events, for example, just, just to Create the context. There was this location who was trying to raise funds for a specific cause. And I offered the format of a wine tasting. So what I did was to ship the wines for before the events. And I came with my four wines which I specifically selected for that event. And I organize an educational tasting,
storytelling, because my style is not too technical. What I try to do when I do wine tasting events is really to engage with the people and try to, yes, give some educational tips, but a lot of stories, some humor around it, good wines, of course. And so it ended up being a very enjoyable night for everybody. Those very wine geek was coming to me with specific questions afterwards, but all the other ones were just enjoying the stories
behind. And I chosen four wines from Tuscany, but from four different regions of Tuscany or areas. And therefore, that night was kind of a virtual journey through Tuscany, was showing pictures of places, giving a sense of the area, of the culture of the region. And people were really, really engaged. And at the end of the show, when they tasted the wine that I've been talking about and paired with some food, if they were interested, they could place some orders, ship direct. That's.
And where was this? What city? Well, that's another good point because I decided to focus on places which are a little bit off the beaten path. So I'm not going to New York or to California, where all the wines of the world are there, but I go to, you know, I went to Iowa, for example, I went to Illinois in Chicago, and I went to Nebraska. And my most successful events were in Nebraska. Really? I had the Andrew Lincoln. Yeah, yeah. I did an event in Lincoln and I did the two events in
Omaha. And the event in omaha could host 130 people seated. And it was fully booked in about a week. So we did a double date, like a Friday and a Saturday. And also the Saturday was fully booked. So I had in that location 260 people listening to my stories. And it was very nice. And those were the most successful events. You know, that is amazing. I. I think I knew about this because my brother lives in Lincoln. Oh, wow. And my brother was also the president of a touring company
for a long time. He retired now, but I think they sent me somehow or my nephew who's got an interest in wine. And I just struck a memory that there was somebody coming to town and they were going to talk about Italian wines. I may have known about your event, unknowingly know about it. That's fascinating. I think that's a brilliant thing to do. And. And the reason I Brought up this gentleman in Cortona who was a jeweler who had a wine shop in Kansas City
as well as in Cortona. Figure that out, right? I mean, are you talking about Mollusini? Right. Yes. You know, I know him very well. Yes. So he wanted me to. To help him, which I'm happy to do, but we have nothing yet. And that was the exact comment was we got to find places. And my wife was like, why are you gonna go to Napa? I mean, the Napa, they're not going to come to your
show. But if you go to Temecula in California, which is a wine area, but not, you know, snooty wine area or some other small village or small city in America that they don't see these things. Yeah, it's a brilliant idea and I think really good for the industry. Yes. Because they are very excited to come. I mean, it's not just another event. For example, the Chicago event I did was probably the least successful because Chicago, busy town, it was the coldest time of the
year. Many events in place, so I had like 60 or 70 people, not many. So. So yeah, all the other ones were really successful. No, that's great. And so have you planned then this next tour and where you think you're going to go? Yeah, well, I'm probably coming. Well, I would like to go back to Nebraska, I have to say, because I have now, I've been. I've been there already twice, which means that the first year was a guest from them, and the second year they called me back, which is. It's very
nice. It's always nice when they call you back. So I hope I will be back either in December once again, or let's see. And then I'm planning from June this year on after I'm done with my diploma course, because I have my exam in May and now I'm just studying all the time. After my exam in May, I'm planning to hire an agency who is going to help me create new opportunities. And what's the response then? I mean, Italian wine, Sangiovese, you know, super Tuscans. Is
it, is it a new to them? Do they, do they go, wow, I've never even heard of this? Or are they like, these are the best I've ever had? Or what's their general level of knowledge and education when it comes to the wines you bring? Well, so far the general knowledge was medium to low. So again, before the event, I send out a survey just to make a few questions and get the Feeling, you know, if those people have been to wine tasting before, if they can name a name of
a variety from Tuscany. Simple, simple questions. And therefore my events were really a mix of educational, but really how to taste a wine. So not specifically Tuscan, very general wine tasting education. Bits, bits here and there and then a deep dive into the Tuscan varieties. The funniest thing, once I did an event and we had three Sangiovese and one Vernaccia was a gentleman came to me and said, don't you have a Cabernet Sauvignon?
So I was trying to explain, I mean, I brought on purpose three different Sangiovese from three different areas really to talk about the differences within one region and how they can express differently. And at the end, well, it was a little bit surprised that there were no other international variety. But overall, everybody is quite pleased by the quality of the wines. Let me say that the wines, I'm independent, so I don't have any particular relationship or commitment to any winery.
And therefore the wine that I bring, I really. Wines that I truly trust that I think that they can meet the appreciation of my customers. So I never bring extreme wines or too much oxidize. I try to really pick a style that I think can be appreciated by, by most of the people. Obviously I pick wines that I like myself, which is my number one criteria when I list a
wine in my wine club. And yeah, overall, I think that people are really mostly happy about the experience because of the wine tasting and the educational and learning something new, because that's something that probably they did not have the chance to do that often. You triggered a memory of mine. And that was, that was exactly our pitch at the Wine of the Month Club, which was an earlier time when wines that we sourced were true
finds. It, it got toward the end of the 35 years. And I'm talking about up to a few years ago where, you know, to find wines in that price range, you weren't finding rare, interesting, fun wines. You were finding bulk items that were coming in from Spain that, you know, you had to figure out which ones were better than the
others. And that that was not what my, my ambition was. And that's one of the, one of the justifications for selling it was it no longer became that interesting find, it no longer became an interesting overstock. We did wines, you know, there was a, I remember one wine from Sebastiani, which is a very famous family owned winery at the time, and they found, you know, 10 pallets of this wine in their warehouse that had just not forgotten about, but it just wasn't doing anything. It was
great. But the reason they had it was they had the three year old daughter scribble on a piece of paper and that was the label. And they decided not to take the label to the street because it just was not, you know, it wasn't Sebastiani. And that's what we lived on. These interesting wines that had a fun story and that changed. But it's kind of ironic to me we would say the same thing. You, you're just saying I'm not aligned with a particular
one. So you get the best value, you get the interesting things. I find I go out on the street and I look for you. And that's a really important feature to a proper wine club. One thing one of my customer told me that showed me, but just because I don't really know very much or very well how
the American wine club work. Once he told me, I really like your wine club because unlike some wineries wine club that send out leftovers wines to the memberships, my wines in the shipments are just selected on purpose for the wine clubs. So I don't have any leftovers or it's not like an old vintage that I need to, you know, get out of the warehouse
or whatever. So this, this gentleman actually I'm sorry about those wineries but he canceled the two subscription and enter into mine because he really liked the fact that he was always getting new wines with a thought, you know, a thoughtful selection behind. And don't feel bad for the other wineries. Yeah, well, and there's something that you said that, that makes me think about the fact that in my selections I try to cover a quite broad price range because
I truly believe that wine is for everybody. I mean it's not something that only people who are eager to pay 80 bucks a bottle, they should get good wine. I think there are loads many good wines, 15, 20, 25, €30 or 30 bucks. And my mission is really to try to find good wines also for a good price. Obviously in my wine club you will find also single vineyard Brunello's over $100. But you will also find very good wines for a good price. Because I truly believe that
wine is for everybody. You know, it's an interesting thought because I had this conversation this morning. Then we were talking about entry level Burgonne. Like when you go to the supermarket in America, you see Lu Jadot and a couple other major brands and their entry level versions of Burgundy and they're not good. You Know, I'm not disparaging the brand, but the large, some of the large houses that bring in Von Rouge, you know,
they're just, they're okay. But there's some wonderful entry level burgundies from these small makers that if you go to the right place to buy them or the right wine shop, you can get about the same price and you can get something that actually is quite revealing to the region. And Chianti clearly is like that. You know, I've had, I've had Chiantis and fiascos that were excellent, but most of them are, you know, the traditional idea behind a
fiasco, which is like the country wine. But the. There are some really good entry level Chiantis that if you know where to go to get them, Keani Classicos too. There are some very well priced Keani Classicos. But again, you know, the, the way marketing and Wine in America works is very hard to get shelf space and exposure for those brands because of many, many factors. And here you are finding those exact things
and sending them direct to the consumer. Truly, you know, but the point I was going to bring up earlier was your club has that premise. I'm going to find you the best I can find and for the price. And this customer of yours was like, yeah, I get leftover things from winers. I think that's changing. Okay. Because particularly post Covid, the direct to consumer model was critical in most wineries revenue stream because they couldn't. There was no
tasting room. Right. Yeah. And so many now create brands or create blends just for the direct to consumer club. And so they make it a benefit to join the club because you're going to get access to stuff that we make that nobody else can get. And I think that's an important piece. You're doing that anyway. Right. They can't get them.
But you're combining that with the idea you're not aligned with. Because I also look at this and maybe this is one of the pitches that you could use or do use, and that is if you decorate your home with the same artist's paintings, eventually it becomes mundane because you get used to the style. Because the style doesn't waver too much unless you're somebody like Dali or somebody.
But wine is kind of the same. You know, if you have the same winemaker and they're making wines from just various plots of vineyards or various grapes, you end up with a theme. There's a thematic feeling to a group of wines made by the same winemaker. And you're Avoiding that, yeah, I'm trying to do that. And I see that there. I thought I knew many wineries, but since I started this business, obviously I get exposure also to wineries. So people reach out to me to look for opportunities to
partner with me. And there are so many nice realities around there, out there that struggle, really, to get exposure because the competition is so high. And now, I don't know if you feel that, but in Italy, in Europe over the last 15 years, there has been this shift from land owners who previously sold grapes or bulk wine to bigger wineries now that the new generation is involved. And then maybe they studied winemaking studies or marketing or whatever. Now the new
generation say, okay, I don't want to sell bulk wine. I want to bottle my own wine with my own label. So there's this new generation of young producers that are really. I'm happy to. To help out, really. And yes, I've seen that. I've read that, talked to people like that,
and it's happening here. But at the same time, I want to slap them in the face and expose them the reality of, again, the difference between making wine and having a winery and actually needing to sell it, what is now a complicated, convoluted market. Well, both you and I live in a very lucky place because California and Tuscany, I think, are not so difficult, right, to sell. Imagine if you are a small producer from, I don't know, Le Marche or Umbria or another region not so well known
internationally. In that case, it's really, really challenging. But I think in Tuscany, if you have a vision, if you have some entrepreneurial skills, so not just farming skills, I think there is a. There is a way to succeed. We were in. When we were in Cortona, I drove down to Montefalco to see my good friend Valentino. Valentini. Yeah. Who in worst case, should just have. Should be a movie star with that name. That's white wine in Italy. And we had a
wonderful time with him. He couldn't believe we drove all the way from Cortona down there to see him. But he's been in my shop here a few times. But, you know, his brand is in America, and in Saga Latino is a, you know, a unknown grape here. And we were talking. We were talking a little bit about expression, words, the wine business and what people do sometimes. And so I had a customer asked once, I was actually, I was on a TV show, and the host of the show said,
have you ever had Sargento? And I'm thinking to myself, sargento. And then I realized they were talking about Saglantino. And what do you do? Correct. The guy on his own show can't do that. Right. You know, we're already at, at 45 minutes here, which is amazing. It's such a wonderful conversation. Yeah. So what's next? What's your. When's your first trip back here and what's. And after your diploma pass? Well, my next is the diploma really. Now I want to focus 100%
on that. And then I have the high season, touristic season starting in, in May, actually. I have a few groups coming from the US to, to Tuscany to spend a week with me or experiences. So I'm going to be busy till late September and then, yeah, I'm planning to organize trips. Now what I'm trying to do is to combine larger events, like the ones I told you before, with smaller events because now all my membership subscribers become friends in a way because we have such a
close relationship. It's not like an E commerce. You know, I sometimes I even meet them and so they always invite me. So I'm planning to sometimes do like smaller wine tasting either at their places or with their friends and try to maximize my trip when I'm in the States, also meeting my current customers and organizing. Organizing something with them and with their
network. You know, that's an interesting thought. We'll wrap up with this. And that is people always ask, you know, what do you do about score suckling and wine enthusiasts and all that? And they seem to be losing a little traction. They're not as. Not that they're not reliable, but the concept is, you know, if I taste that 90 point wine from the Canary Islands and I taste a 90 point
wine from Napa Valley, they're different wines completely. And so the, you land on this idea that while you, you find one of these services like suckling or whatever that most aligns with your palate so you can trust their 90 is going to be in your. Your a 90 on a cabernet, for instance, is going to be in your
wheelhouse. And that's really what you're doing because you have to trust the wine shop owner and that our shop, I had a little shop here and I had a very good buyer who when a person walked in, understood based on what they drank in the past, what where to take them in the store and what wines to show them. And that's a talent. And that's what you're doing basically is you're, you're embedding your skill set in their home.
To find them the things that they feel like is a good representation of what is supposed to be, which is really your primary function, and that they're going to like it. And so I'm impressed. It's. It's gonna be fun to see where this goes. And of course, if we're anywhere near Tuscany, we're going to Sicily next month. But that I'm not going to pass through Tuscany to get there. We would love to come out and taste some wine with you. Sicily. It's
on my bucket list. I'm thinking that this model of the Toscana Wine Club might evolve in a different way in the future. And Sicily is on top of my list. Yeah. Their wines are, you know, replicating this model with the Sicilia Wine Club. People would like that, I think. Yeah. Also, I know so many people in the US with some kind of Sicilian origin. And so they were really enthusiastic about the idea of me picking for wines for them from boutique wineries in Sicily. So that's one of
my projects for the future. Not this year, but maybe next year. Well, good luck with it now. And such a pleasure to meet you and speak with you about this. And I'm sure we'll do it again one day. Let's just make sure we do it when we. When we start the Sicilian version. We'll have a yes masculaze together or something. Yes. Cheers. And I will invite you next time I'm going to be in the US for events. Well, I. I do owe my brother a visit in Lincoln. I haven't been there for years,
and he has a wonderful family. Both his daughter and son live there and married with children and all that. And I would encourage them and even treat them to your seminar if you make it there, so. Deal. Cheers. Thank you, Paul.