Carson Leno Fallon. Now it's wine talks with Paul K. Hey, welcome to wine talks with Paul Kay. And we are in studio today about to have a conversation with Charles Smith. Introductions in just a moment. Hey, have a listen to Gavin Slabber just came in from South Africa. I just released four, or this is actually the first of four interviews I did with winemakers from South Africa. It's an amazing conversation and there's tons of stories to tell from down there. I think you ought to
listen. And don't forget Mae Elian Lankasong, who was also in South Africa but was born in Bordeaux. She's 98 years old and she tells the stories of the Nazis coming into her parents chateau and literally shooting it up. Have a listen. Also, meet Jessica Kogan, one of the brilliant digital marketeers in our industry. She came from the icon, fashion icon Donna Karan. It's Koran. Right, Karen, young lady. And she applied her know how to wine and is now on a
company called Connect the Dots, where they're doing digital marketing. Has incredible, insightful things to say about that, but not why we're here. We're here to talk to Charles Smith all the way down from Walla Walla. Welcome to the show. Great to be here. Thanks. Fresh off the plane. Yeah. You had quite a tour already. Vegas and. Yeah, I started in Seattle on Sunday, headed to Las Vegas. Came this morning from Sacramento, and I'll be flying out tomorrow night to St.
Louis. So let's talk about that for a second, because this is, I was talking about Jessica Kogan here. We were talking about the experiential side of wine, and that kind of the needle seems to be moving back to that. You see this patch here, which is Les Amie Devant chapter my father ran in the seventies. Are we doing this to get people? Are we meeting consumers, meeting vendors? What are we doing? We're
meeting about everybody out there. We're meeting the consumers and we're meeting people that are in the trade. I mean, wine runs from top to bottom, and we want to see everybody. So are you showing the wines at dinners? Are you talking to the, like, today you have a meeting, you're going to go show the distributors or retailers all a to z. Let's do it all. And how often a year do you do this? I used to before COVID I did it all the time. I mean, I was, sometimes I'd be on the road for 60
days and straight. But the thing about it is, you know what? You know, there's wine and then there's the wine business. And you have to get out there and show yourself and see the people and want to see what people are talking about. And that's what's really interesting about it. I mean, I've got to go to so many great places around this country, though. Never found myself there. It wasn't for wine. Isn't that great? It's really
cool. Yeah. In fact, the woman I was talking about, who's 98, who lives in South Africa, she says, you know, you must come see me because we're friends. I'm like, wow, that's a really profound thing to say, because wine does do that. It makes friends all over the world. Yeah, we were making some friends last night, drinking plenty of wine at dinner. But that's not the way it started out. Right? I mean, reading your background,
the business of wine is complicated. We know that. We'll talk about that in a little bit. Sure. But the ethereal value of that great glass of wine, that 19 90 99 syrah you made. Yes. That started you down the path. I mean, was it just for fun? What were you doing? No, it was for survival. I needed a job. So the thing is, I had an opportunity that was laid before me, and I took it. Necessity is the mother of invention, and I needed. I had necessities and I needed to be inventive, so I just
did it. I never would take a winemaking class. I never worked a day at another winery. I never read a book about wine. I just did it. I showed up two days earlier when I was going to custom crush my wine. I watched them do what they were doing. I wouldn't couple that with everything else that I knew. I stepped right in and made my first wine, 1999 wall. Wall valleys thraw 15 barrels. You know, I mean, I'm sorry to say it this way, but it seemed like all
the things were against you, right? You didn't go to school, didn't go to eenology school. I sent an intern off recently, Decornl. She started her thing. She's taking bio and all the things. And here you are, you know, bootstrapping it by necessity, making 300 cases of Syrah, which is not the most popular grape in the world, at least. Maybe it was less now or then. And then you went out to sell it. I mean, that's great to make it. That's so fun. It's so romantic. We make wine and what
a great lifestyle. Right? But then you realize you got to sell this stuff. Yeah, that was actually, that was not really the challenge because I think when you're putting some really delicious wine with a label that people can't comprehend. You put it in their glass and they try it, and these are people that are buying for restaurants and wine shops and so forth. They know a
good glass of wine when they taste it. And it made it pretty easy because, you know, my 1999 wall, Wall Valley Sorrel was absolutely delicious. And who doesn't love delicious wine? What was the label? It's Kay Vintners. It was the original label. Was Kay Vintners? Yeah, the black and white ones with the big black k on it. So, you know, I had not seen your Charles Smith label until, I think it was when the Wall Street Journal club. And as you guys know, I was a wine of the month club. We've
done this since the seventies. That's a picture of my dad in 75. But one of the first big clubs that came out that was competitive at that time was the Wall Street Journal club. And there was this bottle, this white label with black ink. I don't know if it was a Charles Smith brand or the Velvet devil. Could have been. And I got, who is this guy? What is this brand? Right? But the one thing that's interesting as a legit brand, it wasn't something that they had made
up. So. So you thought this was fun. You did it. You sold it all. I guess you had an Astro van, some kind of. Well, yeah. You really slept in the stuff. Well, you know, I started with $5,000, borrowed in a van and borrowed grapes as well. So, you know, you said you just get in and do it, you know, like this morning, and you got up really early. It sucked. But I
needed to come down here and see you today. And so I just, you know, pulled my pants on, pulled my boots on, and walked out the door, and here I am. And so what, I mean, really, that's inspiring, though. Was that an aspiring, you know, beginning, like you did, that you sold it. People thought, this is really good. And you're like, wow, this is. I kind of like this. Well, I was just really
pleased that people were responding really positively to my wine. And I think people found it somewhat refreshing that, you know, that I was, you know, just being myself and, you know, being the, you know, the owner and the winemaker, or whatever you want to say, showing up and doing it, you know, I mean, you know, I had my van full of wine, drove from wall low with 84 cases in my astro van, which means the front wheels, tires were barely on the road, and
I knew I'd stop at the first account that I knew that might take the most wine to take some weight off the back. Yeah, right. And I would be in Seattle until every case was sold. I say, you want to try my wine? Yeah, when can we buy it? I said, right now. It's in the car. Wrote in the boys, they wrote me a check, and down the road I went. So you're an only winemaker. You were a shipping guy? You were. I was the only employee. Oh, it was dreadful. I mean, you know, a little.
Few years later, we got a little bit up on this kind of the accounting side of it. But, yeah, it was just me. I mean, I was only one there. For the first six years, really, so. Six. I mean, I started house wine, which I sold to preset brands, and I started house wine brand in 2004, and by the time I sold it was 93,000 cases. And I hired my first person to take care of the financials and the shipping part of my, my wines. And then I started Charles Smith wines right after that
when, you know, kung fu girl and the bevel devil and all that stuff. And, you know, but along the way, I've been, you know, kind of not reinventing myself, but continue down the road doing new things, not repeating my way that I do things. I mean, everything we farm, we farm with no forces of death in the vineyard. There's no synthetic chemicals or anything in the winery. Everything I make, whether it's two barrels or 100,000 cases, is
native fermented. The only thing in my wine besides the grapes and the vessel, the rest in it is little. So two, and that's it. I mean, I'm inspired by true winemaking wine that is honest and integrity, and therefore it's bulletproof for me. I can go out and put myself out there on the line every time I visit someone because I know that I did my work. When did that come around? Like, you made this first cases of Syrah and then you thought, I'm going to do this again. No, I
was going to continue. I mean, you know, you know, there. Was going to always be this natural ferment. You're always going to use natural yeast. You were going to build from the ground up what would be today. You know, we call it organic or natural, whatever words you want to use. Yeah, well, it's not. It's not what is labeled as natural. But, I mean, I'm on the right side of sulfur. You know, I mean, there's. There's a right amount and there's the wrong
amount. The wrong amount is too much. And the wrong amount is none. Right. You know, I mean, you know, I don't want my wine to taste like IPA or smell like IpA, you know, I mean, I like wine, but for each their own, you know, people like natural wine, you know, go your own way, do what you want, you know, but it's not what I do. I just make more, you know, kind of old world style wines
with. With integrity, but I make it them in their new world. Well, that's the good point, though, because when we was tasting wine here all these years, and they started coming out with, and look, you and I know there's no definition for natural wine doesn't exist. The FDA has never even heard of it. It's just an idea. They all tasted like kombucha. And it's like, wait a minute. The
world has been making wine that way for thousands of years. It wasn't until the forties or whatever where the copper sulfate was introduced by the border ladies, all those kinds of things. It was always the way you're making them, wasn't it? I mean, what's that? Well, I think that the wines didn't travel so much. And I think that the idea of some stability is really important. I mean, if you go to a restaurant and you order raviolis today, you find them delicious, and
tomorrow you go and order them again, and it's a completely different thing. How many times are you going to go back to that restaurant? That's true. You know, I mean, if I'm buying a bottle of wine, I mean, I would like the next one I buy to be fairly similar to the one I just had, you know, and, you know, if people think it's, you know, playing russian roulette with drinking wine, I mean, they find that fun. Hey, like I said, for each their own. I just
don't choose that for. I think that's probably the basis of your growth because, you know, so many wineries doctor stuff up to make them taste the same. You're still bringing to the table something that's reflective of what you've been doing, certainly, but not, you know, the crap they're bringing from Europe for fifty cents a liter kind of thing. No, I'm making the wine that I remember inspired me and why I fell in love with wine in the beginning. And it was when I was working
as a migrant restaurant worker. I worked winters in Palm Springs and summers in Lake Tahoe and Napa Valley. Well, you know, you can't put it all your life experiences, there's. And I worked at this restaurant at the spa hotel called the Agui Caliente room. And, you know, he had a maitre d captains, front waiter, back waiter, and bus boys. And I walked through the kitchen to get a job, and I got a
job as a back waiter bringing food out. And I realized that the captains, they always had these service bar near the kitchen and always had this cold white wines and the ice buckets, and they were just drinking this wine all night, like, what isn't? And eventually, you know, I just snuck some for myself. I was like. It was just, you know, I've been working. It was warm, and I was, you know, running around the restaurant doing what I'm doing. And it was fresh, white and minerally,
and it was exactly what I needed. It served the exact purpose, what I think wine is supposed to be about. And believe it or not, it was Parducci Sauvignon blanche, a very basic wine. But back then, Parducci Sauvignon Blanc probably only was grapes, and I'm sure I don't imagine they're the same, but what I'm saying is, I fell in love with that wine because of that, and a very,
you know, serviceable wine, and is all I needed. And that's what I want to do for me, you know, if wine isn't pleasant and feels pleasant in your mouth, there's no point in even drinking it. So this experience at the restaurant that said, wait a minute, this is really interesting stuff I got. Because you
hadn't really experienced wine at that level before that? No. Well, one thing I noticed when I started working, I said, for about a couple weeks, I noticed there was this one waiter that apparently must have been, like, the best waiter because he had a medal around his chest, like he'd won some waiter competition. And I asked one of the captains, who's that? I said, that's the wine guy. The wine guy. What does he do? He comes in late, leaves early,
and drinks all night. We have to tip him out. And I'm like, I want his job. Sounded pretty good. Yeah. Sounded like a really good idea. Assuming the medal was a taste of. A. Yeah, I thought he had a medal. But, you know, what did I know? You know, I'm a high school dropout from Loomis, California, so what do I know? We don't, you know, we don't see those around much. You know, the last time I saw taste font was Kevin O'Leary, the shark tank guy, right? He was on the show,
and he was wearing that thing. And I go, wow, I haven't seen that for years. No. So, anyway, you found that on the hospitality side. This was an amazing experience. It's your aha. Moment. Everybody has them in the wine business, but then you go on to say, you talk about you want to create wines for the people. What does that mean? It means that I want to have people. Everyone should have access to good wine no matter how much money they
have. I mean, I never made $50,000 in my life until I was 43 years old and my fortunes changed. But the thing is. But I knew the good bottles, and I could find them in a set amongst a sea of selections. And the idea with, you know, my first is the wine integrity that I'm putting in the bottle because everybody should have access to good
wine. And secondly, I'm known for my labeling and branding simply because I want to be able to communicate the language of wine to people who don't speak wine so they can have access to the good stuff and find their way through all this shit that's actually in the market. Thank you. And give them real wine that doesn't have adjuncts. I mean, there's over 70 things that you can put in american wine. Some of the things I
can't even pronounce. One of them, you actually, if you put that in, after five days, you don't put another chemical and it turns to strychnine. I mean, this is like nuts, really. Wow. Yeah. There's over 70 additives in marijuana. You know why they have them? You know why they're illegal? Because people use them. I guess that's the thing. Defoaming agents, color, sugar, insanity. I mean, wine is supposed to be from the earth. That's right. I mean, it's something, you know, maybe that's
why most supreme things we could ever imagine putting in our mouth. Maybe that's why your wines make people feel something. There's a. You went by it, actually, Galliano. He just passed away, unfortunately, and I went to go see him years ago. He had a beautiful 1500 gallon redwood tank of zin. And he made good wines. You know, he actually was a pretty good wine maker. And he puts it in a glass, and it was a little prematurely orange. Okay. And I said. But I loved it. I said, I don't
know if I can sell this because of the color. He goes, well, we can fix that. So we went in the lab, he opened the Nords refrigerator, and there's a bottle of, what, mega purple or mega red, whatever it's called, that sugar additive. And he drops in the glass, and the whole thing changed. I go, no, man. I can't sell that to people. Now that I see you do it, I can't do that. Yes. So how do you. How do you do that? Because this. This industry is ebbs and flows, and we seem to be
in a depression right now. We seem like millennials aren't drinking Gen Z's. They're drinking rtds and all this stuff that's out there. White claw. How do you maintain this philosophy and get wines like this to people at a price that they can afford? Well, I just stayed the course, let everybody else muck about and trying to maximize their profits. I mean, I know what side my bread is buttered on. It's because the consumer who buys my wine helps me
pay my insurance. All the folks that work with me at the winery, this is how we make our money. So, how do we want to do it? We want to do it the honest way, the right way. We want to earn every dollar we make by doing what is right, and that is what we stay true to. You know, these other companies, they want to do what they want to do. I think. I think they're destroying the wine business themselves, because who wants a drink? You can go. You can get it.
Go to a restaurant, get a really good glass of pint of beer by somebody that's passionate about beer, a good brewer, and a clean glass with a nice head on, delicious. And then maybe you have a bar with a big back bar, and you got some bartender there that's passionate about cocktails and making a nice drink. You know, that's around $10. The pint's around $8. And then. Or you can get a glass of wine that's full of adjuncts. If I was a
23 year old person, I'm not drinking. Drink that wine. That's crap. I'm gonna drink the beer made by a passionate person with integrity. I'm gonna make it drink a cocktail made by this delightful person behind the bar that is into it, or I'm gonna drink this wine where. I mean, it's not even. It's disrespectful. I believe that's the first time somebody has sat here and explained the terroir and the glass. That comes from
the philosophy. Right. Because, you know, the terroir being the general term of weather and soil and picking conditions, all that. But romantically, I think it has a lot everything to do with what you're saying right now. Yeah, that philosophy. There's a right place for everything. And, you know, whether it's you know, my substance, Sauvignon blanc, whether it's one of my cave, Internet, syrah, whether, you know, whatever medium, or my new Pinot Noir
project, Golden west, it is in the right spot. You know, for example, I make this Pinot noir called Golden west. And you think, okay, what pinot noir in Washington state? Well, 60 years ago, somebody would have said, pinot Noir in Oregon, you gotta be crazy. Now, that person's a genius. Now, you know, so now probably people going, Charles Smith, he's crazy.
But, you know, I thought about it. If most people think the best Pinot noir has come from France, from Burgundy, well, what would we possibly have in common? Which, where we are, turns out we're at the same latitude as bone, where my pinot noir, we are continental climate, not coastal like bone. We are within one degree of the growing season in Volney. Wow. Right? Being with one degree. And also we have over 50% limestone, which is what you get on this hill in the first cruise of vos
Robonay. There's four reasons why Washington state, you should be able to make absolutely superior, killer Pinot Noir. I just named four reasons why I could do it. Well, I mean, it has been known for Bordeaux varietals and some roanvir idols. And now here you are, biting off something interesting. We went to the 1989 McMinnville, Oregon Pinot Noir festival, the second year, and they had invited Dron and Jaddo and all these people to. And what's interesting this is. I want to reflect on this.
Used to, back in those days, even my dad's days, you would say, oh, this is very burgundian, or this is very bordelaise, or this is. And you would refer back to regions that aren't where you're growing, and you're growing now. Walla Walla. I'm assuming that's the region. Well, not the Pinot noir. This would be the royal slope, but. Okay, so royal slope, Pinot Noir. Yes, but it's going to be its own thing. It is absolutely its own thing. How many vintages now? First venues was 2018 and just
released in 2021. And every year you're feeling more. Yeah, if we had a couple glasses. Here, you'd be here. You know exactly what I'm talking about. That'd be really interesting, because, I mean, peanut water is just not something you talk about, even though Oregon is very successful with it. Well, there's great growers making oregonian and great winemakers making oregonian pinot noir. And it should be oregonian because that's where they're making it. Same thing for Californians, but it's
a different flavor, it's a different sensation. And the one wine that I'm making in Washington is also something that you would not expect domestically. Very earth, earth driven wines. Pnoir being a conduit, really, to its growing conditions. Absolutely, 100%. I mean, it's a very vivid and transparent wine. Have you been down the wine aisle at a supermarket lately? Yeah, yesterday I was in Sacramento visiting
Rayleigh supermarkets. Yes. And what did you see there? Did you see, I mean, to me, I'm gonna say what I see before I put my own foot in my mouth, but I took a picture the other day of this giant shelf of Cabernet with a shelf talker on every freaking bottle. And it's all the same stuff. I mean, it's all the same formula. It's sugared up. And if it's a snapper, it doesn't matter where it's from. It's a wine cocktail. Yeah. So how do we, how do we, how do we get out of
that? How do we tell people, look, there's something so interesting out here, I think. When they eventually, which will never happen, because there's powers that we won't want it. When you put ingredients on the back of the bottle, when they realize that their wine is more than just grapes. Are you doing that? Are you putting grapes on it yet? Not yet, but I will. But I just feel that it's like the way we farm and the way that we ferment. I don't need
to write it on the bottle. People should expect that when they're getting wine produced by Charles Smith. Of course it's not going to be junked up. Of course it's going to be pure. Of course it's going to have integrity, because that's the only way that that guy would do it, and that's. I'm that guy. So, you know, it's said here that you are the largest now manufacturer of wine in Washington. That is incorrect. I am the largest independent producer of wine in Washington state. Largest
winemaker owned winery. I have quite a number of projects. I have caveenters. I have six toe. I have wines of substance. I have Vino, I have Cassa Smith. Am I forgetting anything? Oh, yeah. Golden west. Are they each philosophically different brands, or are they varietally different? Is that what you try to do, or how do you. The philosophy is a clear thread through everything that I do, but the idea is I approach every wine in every project if it's the only wine
that I do. Wow, that's a statement. It should be that way, right? Yes, it should. And I also make this. Now everything is front and forward. I mean, I drink more of my twelve to 15, $15 bottle of wines than my more, you know, lofty priced wines. And because the only difference between my wines between less priced and high price is the yield from the vineyard and the time aging. That's it. This is fascinating because you've created this philosophy from the ground up. You were in
necessity making wine because you needed to pay the bills. By the way, my necessity right now, because I don't have a company functionally selling wine, is voice acting. Okay. I want to become a voice actor. That's my back against the wall. Probably should start making some money. And so I've been working on voice acting. That's what I want to do. I probably wouldn't be very good at it. No, I think you might be. But it's for fun. It's like, I love the
necessity part of this. But you grew up with a philosophy. You started with a philosophy, and you're still doing that. I think that's obviously a very important part of your success. Because if you're just gonna make menage a trois out of, you know, sugar and grapes or things like that, you're just gonna be part of the me too movement. You know, we have this, too, and it's gonna be on the shelf. Yeah. And the thing is, there's some really good, you know, wine stewards
and in the restaurants and in the grocery store. I mean, we met this really lovely person, that nugget up in Sacramento yesterday. And they're putting their best foot forward to do the best work they possibly can. So, you know, there are people that are really passionate about it. But, you know, there's also, you know, it's a big business. You
know, wine business. Well, it is a big business. You know, the funny thing, this company started in the seventies, and it started really once it got into a direct to consumer, mail order type company. It really was relying on the fact that you're going to find good stuff available. I mean, I used to buy odd pallets from Sebastiani they made and never tried to sell or pay. My port I was able to find, and so. But those things are gone now. They
don't. Everybody's bringing in this junk. Like I talked about earlier, they bring in 50 centiliter white wine from Spain. They put it into 20 different labels, and they make it look really good. And they put it out there, people buy it, and then they go, ah, yeah, right. This wasn't that great. And this is a bad thing for the industry. Yeah. I mean, you're killing the golden goose. It doesn't make sense to me. But once again, I'm not the one making decisions at these other companies. I'm
just making my decision. And our aim is true. And there's lots of fantastic winemakers here in the US and Europe, and you've. Seen now that this, you know, you're doing what you're doing, and that's what you need to be doing and continue to do. But do you see these global shifts affecting your business? Let's just take white claw. Ready to drink cocktails, non alcoholic wines, orange wines, all these things that have, which, in
my opinion, are just ebbs and flows, and we always had them. We had Bartles and James. Exactly. Wine coolers. You nailed it. They just kind of come and go. Yeah. Thank you for your support. Yeah. Bartles and James, California corps, you had where microbrews got really important. The ready to drink happened because of COVID because people couldn't go to a bar, and people are not really that much into mixing their own drinks at home. So it was easy way to do it. But bars are now open. People
can go and socialize. Pubs are open. Wine bars and restaurants are open. You've had these things all through. Same with the white claw and so forth. The thing is, you know, let's say you're in Seattle, you're gonna go to see baseball, and, you know, your friends all drinking beer, but you don't really like beer that much, but you drink one anyways. Or. Or you go, you get a glass of wine, but the wine's not very good that you're gonna get these stadiums. You know, it's always these
big, big brands. And then you have this fresh, fruity thing to drink instead because you don't really want beer. You don't want a glass of wine. That sucks. So you drink this so it has a purpose. I mean, yeah, that's true. Seltzer does have a purpose. And the thing is, it's an alternative bubbly, cold beverage for people that probably don't like beer. You know, you said something profound, actually, because you just separated the consumerism of wine.
The people we need to have do this. My dad once was driving a nap in 74, stopped at the Sutter home, met a guy named Bob Trincaro, and they tasted a white, pink wine. And so that brought a lot of people to the wine trade that weren't drinking wine before. Right. And then they learned that you don't have to drink sweet peak wine. No, but I mean, I mean, what is it? Sutter home white Zimmerdale. I mean, that's millions of people starting to drink wine. That's right. I
mean, we needed that. And it created, it helped create the expanse of the american wine trade. So myself to set her home for that for sure. Thank you. Maybe the white claws of the world are kind of necessary to get started. Or the sparkling, canned, you know, brooch, the stuff that people. Yeah, you gotta start somewhere. And we just, and then you stay the course with the Charles Smith brands and you, when they're ready, have an honest glass of wine. Yeah. And that's why
I call it now an honest glass. Yeah. True wine. That's true. Absolutely. You know, it's been, we're out of time already, which is unbelievable. No kidding. Yeah. It went so down, so smooth and easy. Well, I know you have an important day today. What, what is after your next meeting you have, you're here for a few more days in Los Angeles or what are you doing? Yeah, I'm here in the Bay Area. I was just there. I'm here in
southern California for today and tomorrow. And like I said, then I'm off meeting old client, long time clients, new clients, going around, talking about my wine, drinking some wine, hopefully drinking some good wine today, tonight at dinner. And I'll be out in Venice beach tonight. I'm just out running around. I think probably for lunch, we're gonna probably go grab some little mexican food and wash it down with ice cold beer. Well, there's a few places around here I can tell you turn you onto,
and I think it's really important what you're doing. As I wrap this up, because experience, I think because I spent ten years digitally marketing, I sent 33 million emails my last full year in business here. So you know what it takes to create all that? And half a million dollars on Facebook, a million dollars on Google Ads, all those things.
It's the conclusion I've come to. It's all going to implode because you cannot deliver as many messages that are being delivered to everybody's phone and sell enough to cover the cost to do all this. And it's going to go back to what you're doing today. Well, there's going to be a point where people are just going to put their phone down because they realize they don't have a life any longer. They'll go to a restaurant.
You see six people in their twenties all sitting around, you know, attractive, nice looking people at a nice restaurant, and they're all staring at their phones and put their phone down and look at each other, you know? I mean, can you talk to my wife? But no, I'm kidding. Just kidding. Yeah. Well, such a. Such a pleasure having you here, Charles. I hope we can do it again one day. I'm available. Maybe up and. Maybe up in Walla wall. We do.
Yeah. Wayne, come visit me up in Walla wall or at my winery in Seattle. House of Smith, Jet City. You're on. Yep. Cheers. Cheers. Thank you for listening to wine talks with Paul, Callum, Cary. And don't forget to subscribe because there's more great interviews on their way. Folks, have a great time out there in the wine world. Cheers.