When we do some trainings with the staff, I tell the people we are not order taker. We should surprise the people that they get a special moment. We create really special moment. The people should not forget that they have a reason to come back. You should not be the superstar. You should feel them that they are the superhero. When they are coming, sit back and grab a glass. It's Wine Talks with Paul. Kate. Hey. Welcome to Wine Talks
with Paul Keane. We are in studio today at a blustery day here in Monrovia in Southern California. About to have a conversation with Stephanie Henn from Hamburg, Germany. She's the lead psalm at the five star Fontenay Hotel as well as a master som introductions in just a second you have a listen to a couple shows coming out. I have one show that kind of blends immigration to America with the pursuit of a wine career. This is with
Zaya Yunan and that's coming out soon. So have a listen to that but not while we're here today. Here a conversation with Stephanie. Welcome to the show. Thank you. Hi. You know, we were just talking about Germany and, and the German wine scene and it's, you know, I don't know that the American market is, is tuned to it right now. We seem to go through cycles with, with Riesling in particular, but other German wines as well, that
they were very popular. When I first started doing this in 1988 with my father, we, we sought, you know, great Rieslings to present to our customers and then they kind of fade away, they come back is how is that market in Germany? Do we see the ebb and flow of Riesling or because it's sort of the noble grape of Germany. It's a rather steady appreciation. I think it's.
It was still. There was a time when it gets really fancy, maybe it was three years ago that the people really have been crazy about old Riesling and Riesling was really famous and now the people are again interested in other great varieties. I think at the moment it's really nice when they have some Pinot Noirs. That's upward trend that the people are interested about the quality of the German Pinots and what we do, we sometimes try to do some things which are not
in fashion at the moment. We show a Sylvana from Germany. If you have international customers that can be really interesting for them because our German wine institute, they are just pushing Riesling and Pinot Noir international and Silvana is a great variety. What is a little bit different because it's just grown in Germany and in the Alsace and a little bit in the north of Italy. But it's a really good structured grape and it's a wine what you can show in. In restaurants
with food. If you don't want to change for red wine for main course. Silvana can be a really good possibility to drink one wine for a whole menu. And yeah, we do it sometimes in the win wine caring and yeah, I think this is really good. You said something interesting about German Wine Academy. Yeah, and we were just talking about my father's certificate to a seven day class called the German. I forgot the name of it. It was the Wine Institute, I think. If the
Wine Institute. Right. So. But you're. You're a master song which is the pent ultimate degree of. From the court of sommeliers. And I know there are not a lot of women that have this degree. There's one right here in my neighborhood, Elizabeth Schweitzer. She's been certified for years. She used to work here actually Wine of the Month club. But what, you know, why did you do that? What was the pursuit? Was your family in wine? Were you in wine? Was there just
hospitality? Seemed like an interesting place to go. Yeah, it was. I was a lazy student, so. Well, it's nice to admit that, you know. So I finished school after 10 years and thought working would be easier. Then I started doing a training program in the hospitality industry in a little hotel. I'm born in a vine area. I'm born in Flanken, so that's where the Silvana is coming from as well. But I'm coming from a spa city. So
we have a lot of mineral water. Where I'm grown up and around the city there are some vineyards. So in the place where I did my trainee program there was a one star Michelin restaurant with a really good. The owner was really good because we always had to try what we served. And then I thought why do we serve this wine with this course? Where is this food coming from? And this was really the story behind everything was so interesting that I started
learning. And because I was so lazy, I wanted to have a graduation when I learned I wanted to have something. Yeah, you're very humble about this laziness. And then I started when I was finished after you in Germany you do this training program for three years. And afterwards I. I moved to other place in a two star Michelin restaurant. And then I started working together with a good summary and already focused on studying about wine. And then with. I think I was 21 or 22.
When I first signed for a German sommelier program and this was. They. They told me in three months it's, you can have your exam and then your sommelier and. But this was just a little drop on. On the mountain or a little drop on a hot stone. It was just the beginning of. And then when I was finished with this program, I thought, okay, let's continue and go on. And then I started with the call of master sommelier program. And then I thought, okay, entry level, the
introductory and certified. Okay, it's nice, let's continue. Advance is really good. So with the advance, it took me. I had to go four times. No, it was the third attempt. Then I passed. So it took me three times to pass the advanced exam. And I thought that would be the highest level I could reach. And I was happy with it because during that time I was working in a freestyle Michelin restaurant as I had sommelier full time. And then I thought, okay, maybe I'm not clever enough.
And advance is okay, it's good. Not that much people on the market who have this graduation. And then I'm stopping. Advance is the, the level just before master. Yeah, and it is, but it's kind of difficult because you have to pass your exam during three days and you have to pass all the three parts, the tasting, the theory and the practical. So you have to prepare everything and if the first day is okay and then the next night you, you have the pressure for.
And it's just in one year that you have to pass. And that was always when you are already tired. Because when you work in a freestyle Michelin restaurant, sometimes it can happen that you are tired. Yeah. Let me ask you, let's stop you there for a second. Is that, was that a surprise that when you got into being a master sawman running the wine program at a three star restaurant, that, that, that amount of work.
And the reason I brought this up is I have very close friends in the industry, of course, and they, they all work in different types of locations where some get to go home at 8 o' clock every night and some don't. And some work till midnight. They got to clean up whatever they got to do. So was that a surprise for you that there was so much effort to put into being the lead psalm in a 3 star restaurant?
Not really. It was. I, I knew before that you have to work a lot, but yeah, it was and I enjoyed the work because it was really on a high level. And I think fine wine with really high quality of food that was it was so exciting to have every day working with a crazy guy in the kitchen who has good ideas every day and serving food out of trees. That was more than. I was so happy to see how the people can be excited about eating and drinking. So I did never
think about that. This is a hard work for me. But afterwards it was just difficult for me that if you do this job, you don't really have enough time in your, yeah. You don't have spare time to study and, but you were lazy your life. But you're a lazy student. How did you do this? I mean, yeah, I, I, it was, I, I, I had to tell my chef in that time that I'm going to leave because I wanted to push for the master summary exam. And then I just quit the job. Wow. And, but that was, I was already five
years there. And he could understand it because for him it was the dream to achieve the three star. And then he said, I can't say stay if you want to follow your dreams and if you think you don't have enough time in your head to be concentrated for studying. And then I think it was the best decision because it was long. You should not work your whole life in a free star or for me, I should not work in a freestyle Michelin restaurant for my whole life because
I also want to live my life. Yeah. And not just to help other people be happy. I like to see how happy they are. And I love. And that's still, I think it was also, even if that was a hard time, it was also a good preparation for the rest of my life because, and even for the preparation for the master so many exam because I knew that you, if you go push a little bit harder, it's, it can be worth it. And you can do more than you think you can. You can.
It's like if you prepare for a mother marathon, you, you can, yeah, you can push yourself more. Sometimes you think, okay, after 25 minutes, I'm done. But if you, if you continue training, you can be faster and you can do it longer. Yeah. You know, that's interesting. Those are interesting thoughts. I, you said a lot of things I want to kind of peel back here.
One of them is, and I don't think this is unusual that you might choose if you're going to be in a three star environment that you might be choosing between pure your whole life being about hospitality. Yeah. And your, and the rest of your life. I mean that. And it seems like in today's environment, in order for three star restaurants to exist with all the social changes and all the different post Covid problems that. That they need to be more
efficient. They need to get the maximum value from their employees and they need to maximize all the parts of their business. And that just requires a complete commitment on the part of let's just say the master Psalm or the psalm of the restaurant. And I. And I sensed that we were at Tour d' Argent in Paris a few weeks ago and. And I was looking around, watching the staff and paying attention to the psalm and how he was working. I thought wow, this is a serious commitment of your life
to hospitality to be. And you called it fine dine or high level of dining. Is that. Is that the way it feels these days to be in that environment? I think it's really. Yeah. I still love this work. So we are still having here good restaurant in the hotel. We started in 2018 with the opening. So the good thing after I left and I. After I started with my preparations for my master exams
I had the opportunity to come to Hamburg. So the freestyle was in Bavaria and I moved to Hamburg and then I had had the chance to do a opening of a five star hotel as a handsomely with an empty wine cellar. So that was. Wow. Normally we don't really do like a. We don't write a master. Yeah, like the master. Like the master of wine they have to write an essay. But for the master somebody's we. Our theory part is just. Yeah. Kind of practical.
We just speak, we don't write. But what I did I. For my preparations I could write a wine list for a five star hotel with two restaurants and two bars just from zero. And I could do an international wine list and I could. Nobody told me what I should put on this. It was just carte blanche and they trusted me that I am not going to spend too much money and that I will do it as the people like to drink.
I think and that was a cool thing. Too much money for. I'm sorry to interrupt you but I think too much money for a restaurant tour or hotel is a whole lot different than too much money to the Psalm. Who's putting together the list? Right. I mean this. Yeah. What were your thoughts when you were doing this list? This is a very interesting point because there's a
whole. I don't know if you're aware of some of the socialized issues with they're calling it dumbing down wine and we need to change the language and I don't agree with any of it. But it's interesting that you had to start from scratch, create a list. What were your thoughts? Because I mean, did you know who the Hamburg five star hotel or the Hotel Fontenay. Yeah. Client was? Yes. Or you were doing a sort of looking at the whole industry of wine and say I need to represent it all. What were
you thinking? I thought because before I was in Bavaria, I was working in a five star hotel in Hamburg as a sommelier. Not as the head sommelier, but I was working in the sommelier team. And so I thought, okay, I know what the people are drinking. And I knew that a lot of people have been also visiting the place where I have been before. So. And during my tastings I, when I did my blind tastings, I had already a lot of wines in my, in my mind, which I wanted to buy.
Because when you travel and yeah, when you, yeah. Go somewhere, it's in the wine areas you, you won. You already write down and you remember years afterwards that this wine should be nice on that place or and in Hamburg. The good thing is we are in the north of Germany, so we don't have any wine areas around. The people who are living in Hamburg is. They are open minded because it's a harbor town.
So you can bring wines from all over the world because they don't really care if the wines travel by ship. That's a good thing. And then I thought that would be also really cool for my preparations because I need to study about all. Because I'm lazy. And then I had the reason to study about all the wine areas about. Of the world and to think about which wineries are interesting wherever. And I could do something. And I had this wine list to create.
And if you do it. Yeah, it was, it took me about three months that I had to look for the wines, talk with some distribution people to save the wines in their cellar till our wine cellar was finished that they could deliver. Yeah, it's an interesting thought there because I just was sitting with a restaurateur here in Los Angeles and he was saying that his bottle sales were off considerably, like 40%, which is more than most people are suffering from. And he brought in a new song to
revamp the list. This is a Mediterranean restaurant. And he decided to use all Mediterrane minds and get away from the standards. Yeah. So which, and you said something earlier where, where you notice what people were drinking. And so is this a decision on the psalms part? And you mentioned you travel the world. Well, like we were just in Sicily and I got to take, you know, Masculaze. Yeah. You know, I got to drink some of these Aetna Mountain wines and
things that you don't really see on lists here in America. And so the argument I'm making is, do we look at wine lists for what people are drinking, which is what you're bringing to the table, having been in the field versus what you think they should be drinking based on what's being made in the kitchen? Do you have to balance this idea because you want to expose your clients to the really interesting wines of the world that would do
well with the foods there. Yeah. Or you just whatever they want? I think when it depends on which part of the hotel the people are coming. We have a two star Michelin restaurant in the seventh floor of our hotel where the people are drinking. I think 80% of the people who are coming are drinking the wine pairing with the menu. Oh, really? Wow. So this is really good because I thought I do the wine pairing out of the wine list. So I sell all the wines. Like I try to don't have two wines or
three wines from the same area in the wine pairing. And I just do like a world trip of wines in the wine pairing. And I usually have one wine or sometimes two from Germany. Because if we have international guests, they want to taste what we have. Yeah. So. And in this case we have, I think 80% of the guests who decide for the wine pairing are happy to be surprised. And if the other 20% are expecting. Get the wines they know, sometimes you find it out after the first
wine already. Then you have to try what they like and then they don't get the wine pairing. What is really like the best pairing with the food. In this case, we would have some wines by the glass which are. Yeah. Good value for everyone. And you would find different things. Yeah. What we can do by the glass and what I write with the wine list, it's not a. Yeah. Not just like my favorite wines from worldwide. It's more. Yeah. I think it's about 80% is classic. Yeah. And because I think if it's
Gallium Classic, it. It should be great. Otherwise it would never get a classic example for area. And yeah, it's like we do. If we have wines from us, we have Rich Montebello. I would say this is classic. We do buy the glass at the moment. A wine from Sonoma Coast. It's Pinot Noir. Yeah. Pinot Noir from. It's. I forgot the name. Yeah, I don't. Yeah. Now I. It's. We can get into the weeds about some of these. Somebody's Let me ask you another question.
Do you prefer, and this is for the listeners, this is for the listeners that may show up at a restaurant, a two star restaurant in Hamburg or anywhere. Do you prefer as a psalm that. Well, for instance, at Tour d' Argent, when I was there, a beautiful list, obviously wonderful Bordeaux and Burgundy on their list, aged as well. And I, I just told the psalm, I go look, here's the budget. It was like €450 or whatever it was. And I we like Bordeaux and for this case just let the
psalm do their work. They know most of the wines in the. Listen, in your case, you know everyone on the list because you created it. But a lot of times the psalm walks into a current list. Do you prefer that over or how do you handle that? I mean like. Yeah, I don't know. This is, you know, spate for Gunder with this. I don't know, not a good idea. So I don't. Do you know, do you just let the client understand what you're
thinking and, but let them decide or you, or you. Do you prefer when the client says here's my budget, here's the districts we like. We're about to eat this, make some recommendations. I think you would ever find something. If they tell you what they like to drink, you can find in, you can. Maybe you can find an example what fits with the menu. What would be mainly in the budget? The wine which would fit the best. Yeah. And even if it's not like a perfect match, they are, they will be
happy to drink the wine. As a psalm. You prefer being able to. Sometimes I do. Sometimes I say I, I, I would recommend if it's like a course where what we did. So again I. It is a Pinot Noir from Marina. Yeah. 21 vintage. And it is like that is a really good example. We have a main course with Lamp from Limousin and we do Pinot Noir with it. And sometimes the people think with lamp you should serve something heavier. And I had a guest, he was drinking, he, he thought about drinking a Syrah from
Barossa with it. And then I said if you dramatic difference. And then I, I told him that we are serving a Pinot Noir with it and if he wants to have a Syrah with it, I would have a wine from Amitash. That that's not that you tell them that what they want to drink is wrong. Maybe give them just a little bit something what goes a little bit more in the direction that they are happy. Yeah. And even if the wines are Too young. You should tell how do you like the wine?
Do you like it when it's still more on the fruit driven side? Because this wine could age longer. Something like this. I think you should. Should always help the people to have more fun with enjoying wine and food. Do you think, do you feel like that most people come to your restaurant, are educated in wine or they prefer to rely on you or they just want to drink. The standards, let's say you carry, you know, the basic Bordeaux or the basic Napas that they just run with what they usually drink.
I think we have all of them. You do? Yeah. Where are they from? What's your typical client? American? We can't say we have any typical client. We have a lot of people from Hamburg because the people love to go out in Hamburg and this is really a good place. We are in the middle of the town in a really nice. Yeah. Quiet area and it's in the seventh floor so they have a really good view. We have a lot of people from Scandinavia, from Denmark. Yeah. There are also sometimes people from us
traveling. The only thing what is not so good is that you can't fly directly to Hamburg. You have to fly to Munich or Frankfurt. Yeah. Or London, Amsterdam. That's. That's so it's not. It's a destination. It's a destination to get the Hamburg. Yeah. And what's it famous for? What's Hamburg famous for? As an industry. Do they have you know glass or porcelain or. Yeah, we have the harbor industry. It's like we don't really do industry. It's more. We are famous for logistics. Oh wow.
Yeah. And ships or. Yeah. Like what's the. Yeah, they. They are building ship something. Oh, ship, yeah. Wow. Okay, so let's go back on the one I was. I just wanted to. I haven't been to Hamburger. I thought maybe I'd find out what's going on over there. Yes. There is a lot of. For trade and for logistic. The city, what we are famous for. There's a lot of.
This is going back to your training a little bit because I've been reading recently I went back and found magazines in the wine trade from the 70s around the Judgment of Paris days. 75, 76, 74. And I'm reading these articles from Michael Broadbent and Harry Waugh, these famed critics and it's. They're very similar to what's written today.
Languages, you know, how they describe wines is a little bit different. You know my father used to cringe at some of the descriptors I would use because generationally we use different things but, but it doesn't. It seems to me that the position of fine wine has never changed, never will change. But there's a whole. And it just seems like generationally there's a movement every time we're going to do this, we're going to change the language of wine. We have to dumb it down, we have to
make it more approachable for people to understand. But it never happens that way because in my opinion, everybody comes to this point where they can go to a Michelin star restaurant or even just a fine dining restaurant and listen to a psalm that's properly curated a list and enjoy a proper, honest glass of wine. Have you seen any shift in your career from when you started understanding wine to today's consumption that people are not as educated or more educated or more interested in pairing or
less interested in pairing? Have you seen any shift at all in the contemporary consumption of wine? Yes, I think it was after the lockdown. Yeah, that should have been a lot. The people came back and they have been highly educated. That's true. They were drinking much more at home, weren't they? That was so funny to see it. And it was really interesting to see because I think the average price of a bottle of wine would we sold after the pandemic was minimum 10 to 15 to 20%
higher than before. And the people, they have been talking and they have been asking questions. I think they. Yeah, okay. Maybe it was also because they have just been sitting at home with their closest friends, our family, and they really enjoyed going out and talking to other people. And I think after this period of time it was, it gave a big push to the people to. Yeah. To study and to read about wine and to create a wine cellar because they. That's really interesting you said that.
Yeah, because I think, I think contemporarily, I think the, at least on. In social networking and other parts of the wine conversation, you would hear people think the opposite. And I, and I agree with you completely. We here at the. My company was the original Wine of the month club, the original direct to consumer business in America. And you know, we were, our sales were up
30%. And when the average, when the average purchase back then was like let's say €20 or 20, 20, you know, $22 or so, they were, they went to like $100 or 100, you know, and I couldn't keep those in stock, you know. Yeah, same in our place. I always struggle with buying wines. It's like now I. I buy wine for a lot of higher entry level price for the wines by the glass, and then you just get 60 bottles and then they are already sold out, and then you have to buy again. So. Yeah,
right. Easy wines. Nobody wants to drink. Okay, that's really funny. Yeah, I'm glad to hear that because, like, I don't like getting into arguments, you know, on social networks, because it's really silly and it's just a waste of time. Yeah. But it doesn't anger me. But it frustrates me that these conversations are occurring when we know when you know, when you see it in your restaurant, what people are actually doing. And as all the rest of it is,
you know, in English, we call lip service. Right. It's just a waste of words because what the reality is, people are enjoying fine wine. They are enjoying the conversation with you as the head psalm to do that. And the other thing that's interesting to me, and I want to ask you what's happened on your list? And this is also generational. Yeah. In my father's store, we had Boone's Farm, Strawberry Hill, we had. We had Lancers and Matuse. And these wines that were easy to drink in the
70s, said White Zinfandel. And now we have these white claws and these flavored sodas and, and. And ready to drink cocktails, you know, eroding the base of wine sales. But there are some movements, I think, that are kind of interesting. Yeah. Organic, biodynamic, orange. Do you have any. Do you even have a section on your list for any of those categories? No, I don't have a separate section. I just put them in the list. And for us, it's more that we don't really have too fancy wines.
It's just like a little bit orange. Or even if it's orange, it's still kind of clear and clean. So. Yeah, right. And then, then we do like, we have a Pinot Grigio from. From Trento, from Foradori. What is pink? And sometimes I say to my sommelier team, I say, with some people, you have to tell them before that this wine is pink if it's. And with some people, it can be funny to. Don't tell that. Well, that's interesting. You know, Grigio's got that pink skin
anyway, you know, so. But this is extended fermentation. And, you know, there are a lot of people looking for a Pinot Grigio, which is clear or gray in color and which tastes not really intense. And if this customer is getting a pinot grigio, which is pink. Yeah, You. You should tell him maybe better before if he was looking for Pinot grigio with a really clear, straight, crisp style. But sometimes it can be really funny to see the reaction. And then they say, why is it pink?
And then you have to start in a talk and then you can tell, you know, it's a. A variety, which is pink skin, so it should have a little bit color, and then it can be cool to sell such a wine. Yeah, you know, there's. There was a. Go ahead. Yeah. And sometimes the people, then they are really happy and that. It's. That Pinot creature can taste really intense and have this juicy character and even some tannin structure. Yeah. So here's what I found
through tastings here. Every morning, every Tuesday morning for 35 years, I'd go to the tasting room, I'd stand there at 9 o' clock, and the salespeople would come in and bring their wares. And it was. It became sort of this temperature of what was going on, the wine trade, whatever the sales people were bringing in. And I was doing it every week. I had an understanding of what the marketplace was being presented and what the consumers were. And of course, we saw all
the ebbs and flows. But what bothered me about not only the organic and biodynamic movement, the orange movement was. It was almost an excuse for the wine to be a little too rustic, a little too edgy, a little too rough on the edges. When you and I know, the Burgundians, the Bordelaise, they were. They were organic by nature, were they not? Before we. Before they introduced pesticides and insecticides. Yeah. And. And so I found this to be. Well, it's organic. Like, I don't. I still want to.
I still want a pleasant experience when I open a wine where this organic, biodynamic or orange. Yeah. I don't want to have to feel like I'm drinking it for my health because of some kind of kombucha. Right. It still should taste that. You want to drink more than one sip. Yes, exactly. That was interesting. And I also do. If I buy some wines which are orange in style, I. I have a look. If I put them sometimes in a glass for two days, and if they oxidize too quick, I don't buy.
That's a really. I never thought. I used to put wines out, have them pour. I'd come back in a few hours to see what happened, because sometimes the flaws don't come out until later, but two or three days. That's really interesting. Sometimes we do that if it's really wine like this. And I think orange should not be an excuse for faulty wines. Yes. Yeah. And sometimes they sell wine more expensive than single vineyard wines. And it's a worse. It's not their best quality what
they put into the orange. So it should be. It can be an interesting style. Do you have good quality? Yeah. Since we're on. On orange wine in Georgia, the country of Georgia's, you know, probably the originator or at least, you know, propagates that story. And I went to a tasting. I went to a raw tasting. Not sure if you're aware of rods that Isabelle from the Master of Wine from London. Actually she's French, but she's from London. But she has this group and they go
around all over the world and they open. They have these tasting events called raw. And so I went to the Georgia section and there was that really old world version of their orange wines. I mean Amphora untouched and just really hard to drink. But very traditional. You know, it's not. It's. This has been going on for years. And then there was a. Another table that was all proper current technology, stainless steel, clean version of the same types of wine. And they're two different things.
Do you see a consumption trend any different? Let's say that 10 years ago, in other words, I asked this question about orange wine, but I'm talking about even old world Bordeaux versus New world Napa. Do you see a trend or how people are drinking? I think the trend is that people want to know where the wine is coming from and how it's made. They are asking more questions what the people do in the vineyard because now they know how much some. Yeah,
let's say farmers. Not only winemaker, it's also with the production of food that that's really. With the vegetables that they spray a lot. And so the people are a little bit more asking or they are happy to hear if the winemaker is working organic or maybe. Yeah, certified organic. I don't know that every. I don't think that everyone does really understand the difference between organic and biodynamic. But I think that's something what our customers are looking
for. And they prefer more the origin than a label. I'm glad to hear that. Just with. With wine, with champagne, it's crazy. So because you have this really big group which is drinking the. Just the small grower champagne. But that's a really small group and we still have the people who are looking for the big brands and in this case they spend. They don't really care about how much it costs. If they are looking for Krug or Ruder Crystal or Boulanger
Couture enfant or. Something like this grand de Champagne Comtesse. That's so interesting. I wonder why champagne? Because I love champagne and. And they're pro. We were just. In fact we just went and visited Monsieur Clovis Tanger in champagne a few weeks ago and I thought they're pros at. I mean the champagne district is their pros at making things feel like you're part of the group. Even though, you know, VUV makes 25 million bottles or some. Whatever.
Whatever the number is be exaggerating probably but I always been fascinated by the way they were able to position the style of wine. And you always feel like there's something special going on even though it's a mass marketed huge brand. But. And I'm interested to hear that the consumer is different. How they look at it is different than a regular
consumer. Yeah, I think so. Yeah. And I think sommeliers or wine people, they are more focused on the small grower champagne and as well some sparklings from other places than France. What is growing in Germany is German sparklings. We do really good quality of Meto traditional sect from Germany from growers and as well the Austrian do a great job. I've been tasting something really nice from Jacqueline Baskin from the Basque area. Wow. Or as well from. From the. From the
penades in Spain. It's. It can be really great. Yeah, I think that's interesting. You know one of the great. What's the word? I'm not going to say failure. That's a little too strong. But you know, Hans Cornell, when they came to Napa in the 60s maybe before it was a great story of a German influenced sparkling wine from the California that I think through family there was. I can't remember the story exactly but the. The families kind of fell apart and the whole. The
whole brand fell apart. But it was a very popular brand and it was a well known story about the German immigrant who came to America to make sparkling wine. Was it Tramsberg or. No, it was Hans Cornell. Cornell, yeah. So I'm glad you said this earlier about people asking the questions because in the marketing of wine now is convoluted. It always has been in a certain case. But when I reflect on my father's. I'll show you this picture. This is my Dad's store
in 1975. He's standing in front of his and the imports are in front of them and the domestics are behind him. It was complicated then because it was relative, but now the idea is telling the story and certainly manufacturing techniques, farming techniques, the history of the winemaker is part of the story. Because I contend that when somebody buys wine on the Internet, that that's not a story. I got it for 5 bucks a bottle or
10 bucks a bottle through some. The story really comes down to what you're saying, which is people asking the questions and that your list, you can tell a story behind each wine on the list. Yeah, I think that's good. That's the reason to go in a restaurant or to go in a good wine shop if you have those people. Yeah. You have to be the one who's telling the story and to surprise the people.
Yeah. I just posted a. A sound bite or a video bite from Steven Spurrier when he was on the show and I. And the part I picked out was really interesting and I hadn't heard it for a while, which was wine needs to communicate. Yeah. Something. And that's what I think. You might. And maybe correct me if I'm wrong, but when you see a customer taste a wine and they're eyebrows go up or their face changes or, I mean, does that light you up when that happens? Does that make you feel
good? Sometimes I do. With some wines, I think they are perfect with a course and you taste it together and you think, oh, cool. Perfect match. And then you try to tell the story. But if it's not a story, if it's not a good story, after one week I say, okay, we don't buy more of this wine. I need better stories to tell. Even if that's our job. Right. Yeah, it's. Sometimes it can be really. Yeah. Can be really boring. Then if. If the story is not that much interesting. Yeah. Well, but isn't it.
Doesn't that just go along with the idea of what. I mean, wine is consumer driven. We're. Our job as a seller is to. It's to romance. It is to give people the story. But when it's all said and done, it is a connection to your soul and it is the reason people come to a restaurant like yours to experience it. That'll never. I don't think that'll ever change. Despite all the noise we're hearing today about changing the game of wine. I don't see how it changes. How do you change wine?
You. You can change. You can't change it. It's 12, 000 years old or 6000 years old already. Right? Yeah. You just tell you. I think it's always about the people behind and about the areas where the wine is coming from. And it's a lot of emotion. And the good thing is the people are in the restaurant or in a bar drinking and enjoying the wine. They don't really think about what happens in the world. That's also the good thing of
job of a sommelier. You are always creating special moments for people that they focus on the good things of the life to enjoy to have this hedonistic situations. Just what kind of aged Bordeaux in Burgundy do you have on your list? We have 85 Chateau Marco still. Wow. Yeah. Because when I created the list from zero the good thing was the people already knew me in the. Yeah. The distribution. I I I called everyone and said okay. The seller is empty. What do you
have that's not good? Old vintages. And it was really cool. So I had a really good distributor from From Bavaria who is negotiation for a lot of Bordeaux. So we also have. We do 86. We have 92. We have 98 Lafitte. We have younger vintages of. But let's say younger like 2000 and 2005 of 2005 Ponticanier. 2000 of flashbash. Sometimes I do 2010. But it's up how long the wine can age. And sometimes I also just buy smaller charges. Like just six bottles if it's a good price to put on the list.
Old wines from Burgundy. Yeah. Not really. What we have from Roman Aquant here is still some 2012 left. Wow. Yeah. But not that much. We have some wines in white. We have. Yeah. Le Fl. Some of the Grand Cru from 2014 because it was. I don't remember in which year they had a really small crop. And sometimes then they give you all vintages with the new release. If. If I have chances like this. I always buy because the people are happy. If they.
Because I I hate to tell the people in the restaurant this wine can be nice in 10 years. Yeah. So do you. Do you appreciate it when somebody orders a wine like that and they would you like to taste it? Because maybe you haven't had a chance to taste. I do this all the time. If I order something I think it's interesting. Obviously some psalms will. They're going to smell it and taste it. But do you appreciate it when somebody offers you go get a glass and
let's. Yeah. I always just take a little sip and then I say cheers to the people and say I will bring it somewhere and enjoy it with a little bit time. Maybe I taste a little sip and take my time when all the customers have left. Because it Sometimes, yeah. Can take too long when you spend too much time just with. I don't want to show the other table that I'm drinking with one table.
I just do like this. Thank you. And if you want to share it with me, I would bring it behind and I can give my colleagues as well a little bit of that. That's what I prefer. That's very nice. Yeah. I'm gonna leave you with the stock because we're already at 52 minutes. I know it was very fast, but it's something to do
with your trade and what you're doing. And I'm sure you're in the same ilk, but I. We were in Palermo and I. There was a psalm that brought the list and there were two things that impressed me. One, the. The way he presented the wine, the way his enthusiasm to present us and to display and to decant and to check and to. And is the way his energy was working. What it made me feel as just a client, just a regular diner, that this gentleman really appreciated the fact that we were there
and that we were. That we asked his opinion and that he wanted to show this wine, whatever wines they were, didn't matter. We had two or three different wines that there was something special going on on his side of the table. And I. And I. That's sort of almost a recommendation here because wine is all about the experience and the stories we talked about. But the way this gentleman made you feel that you. That you were in his career to present that
wine and to make you feel like, wow, I really. This is really great. Yeah. Was a really important. And he was. He was Albanian and he was from. But it was. We were in Palermo and I. I've said the story a few times. Is that like how you feel about it? Like you want your diners to just feel the energy that you've brought to the table? Yeah, yeah, for sure. And I want to make a. Share that with my colleagues as well. It's like I
always. When we do some trainings with the staff, I tell the people that it's not. We are not order taker. We should surprise the people that they get a special moment. We create really special moment. The people should not forget that they have a reason to come back.
And even in this really difficult times when the people are really looking at their money and they don't go out like easily every day, it's really sometimes if you go in a hotel as we are, it's a lot of money what they have to bring if they come and there are a lot of other places and you have to make something special what the others does don't do and that they remember the people who are working there.
You should not be the superstar. You should feel them that they are the superhero when they are coming and then it is that they really feel like coming home and give them a good, good time if they are here. Yeah. Excellent. That's right on. And that'll never change. And that is probably why we do this in the first place, is to get people to emote like that. It's been such an honor to have you on the show
and a pleasure and I wish you luck. And I'm not sure that Hamburg is in our most recent travels, but certainly if we ever get that way, we'd love to visit you. But it's really beautiful. Maybe not that much sun as in California, but we have a lot of wind which blows the clouds away. No, it's beautiful. It looks. Sounds beautiful. So I can, I can send you a picture of, of our place and maybe one day you come to visit us. Yeah, would be great.
I have more time than I did and it's certainly going to be something in the back of my mind as part of our wine bucket list, how to experience food experience bucket list. Thank you again for being on the show. Thank you. Bye Bye.