A Master Of Wine, A Master Of Fine Arts..And Common Sense, Meet Susan Lin

Most things I've ended up doing in my life, like the Master of Fine Arts and other things is I just, honestly, I had to do it. There was a fire in my belly. I wanted to learn and I always want to learn and I, once I start learning, I really don't want to stop, sit back and grab a glass. It's Wine Talks with Paul K. Hey, welcome to Wine Talks with Paul Kay. And we are in studio today in a beautiful, actually not

beautiful, sort of a rainy, blustery day here in Southern California. About to have a conversation with Susan Lin, the master of wine here and a master of Fine Arts. Introductions in just a moment. Hey, have a listen to our new podcast called Song of America. It's coming out shortly and we're going to talk conversations about immigration to America and success by doing that, either financial, political or social. It's a great conversation, starting with the Agonian brothers, world

renowned racing history in America. But now, while we're here, here to have a conversation with Susan Lin. Welcome to the show. Thank you very much, Paul. It's wonderful to be here. We had such a nice conversation off camera prior to doing this. I'm looking forward to having this conversation. But it's raining in Northern California as well. That's right. The wind is blowing, the leaves are rustling. Hopefully you can't hear me. We're

bracing for flooding. And I live right here in the foothills of Southern California where my daughter was displaced by the fire. So fortunately did not lose her house. But man, you should see the mud flow when it rains like this. I can only imagine. I hope you stay safe. It's just as scary as, you know, the fires were anyway. Oh, wow. I want to talk to you a little bit about wine, of course, and we're going to talk about wine and music and. But the Master of Wine is a really hard and

difficult process to embrace and to continue with. I have an anecdotal story about my attempt, but what got you, why would you do that? Like, why would you take that five or seven years of your life and commit it to wine? Well, the passion starts from way, way longer before that for sure. But the more immediate answer is like most things I've ended up doing in my life, like the Master of Fine Arts and other things, is I just, honestly, I had to do

it. There was a fire in my belly. I just didn't. I wanted to learn and I always want to learn and I, once I start learning, I really don't want to stop. Like, once, you know, more the more you know, you don't know. And the more curiosity and wonder there is for the world and everything that we can learn and share from each other

and within ourselves. And it's just kind of a wonderful virtual and sometimes vicious cycle because, you know, of course, that kind of study is pretty brutal, and it's very, very much exercise in management of time, emotions, spirit, all sorts of things, but very, very much worth it. The wine was prior to the Master of Fine Arts, or you were a musician prior to the wine.

Enthusiasm. Thank you for asking. I was a musician prior to the wine, obviously, because training in that kind of performance art starts way before legal drinking age in this country. I guess that makes a ton of sense. I thought of it that way. That said, wine was introduced to me quite early by my. My maternal grandfather, and it's to him that I must thank for my introduction to wine and my understanding of what a wonderful beverage like wine and even wonderful spirits like cognac can have

on the. The wonderful effect of bringing people together and bringing kind of camaraderie and magic that is absolutely has. Has no definition. It's something so special. It really is. When. When I used to be very young, my grandparents lived in the United States before they returned to Shanghai. I was lucky enough to be able to go to a lot of dinners at their house. And we had the kids.

Everybody had the kids eat first, and then we shant us off to the living room to play so that the adults could actually have their time together, which I think is a really smart thing to do. And. But afterwards, you know, when the kids went to the living room, I didn't want to go because every time my grandpa would bring out some sort of bottle and something magical would happen. Yeah, that would be around the tables. Yeah, yeah. And I thought the labels were

so attractive. I wanted to know what was happening. And my grandpa, he really treated me like an adult, and he shared with me, he taught me what he knew, which was to lead by example, because he loved talking about these with the people gathered around the table, the adults. And he. He let me sit in on that, and he would let me taste little bits. And to this day, my mom says she has no. She had no idea that I was tasting wine and spirits. When I was

really little. He would literally just, you know, pour something and slide a glass across the table silently. And then I would take a sip, and then I would slide it back across the table silently while everybody else was talking. And from there, I was always studying piano among other instruments like the trumpet Et cetera. But piano is my main instrument still. And I was playing in hotels and restaurants to get some work experience and to earn some

money while I was going to school. And I would see this ritual replaying with what was happening at these restaurants. People, they would share a drink together, talking business or, you know, just having wonderful conversation and the ritual of the opening the bottle or the bringing of the drinks. And between sets, I would talk with the bartenders and ask them, you know, what their life was and everything. I mean, I know it was underage at

the time, so it's pretty amazing that they let me hang around that. But I was just the pianist, so it was okay. Right. Who is this girl asking us questions about stuff? She's supposed to be playing the piano. You know, this is interesting thought though, that you just said, here you are as a young, a young girl and you're parents had no interest in what their father was doing, but you grabbed an interest. And it's kind of an interesting overlay to humanity and wine because not

everybody grasps it like you have. Not everybody is curious. I think every generation becomes curious at some point in their lifespan and some are later than others. But it's interesting that your immediate family, that there was an interest in sort of a generation skipping. Interesting. Yeah, it's interesting too because my parents don't really drink. So it's just my grandfather, my father. Wasn'T a wine guy. He didn't get interested in wine until being raised in Cairo under

the English protectorate. He wasn't, you know, he was just exposed to wine through that. But he was sent to the pharmacy, pharmacy actually at this point to get a liter of sweet and a liter of dry kind of thing. Oh. But it wasn't until Queen Elizabeth came to America in 1959 to meet Eisenhower that he bought a case of Krug Special select that. That sort of lit. Lit the idea. And I thank my father every day, even though he passed a few years ago,

for exposing me. And I say exposed because he can't teach you this affinity or this desire, but he can certainly expose you to it. And that sounds. Happened in your family. Yeah. So you were, you were a musician first. You know, this is interesting. I did a. I had a Sardinian wine here, pretty sure it was Sardinian, where the Bose Manufacturing company put vines in a room. Are you aware of this

study? No, actually I'm not. Okay. So they put. They played classical music to a vine in a, in a soundproof room and they played rock and roll music to a vine In a soundproof room. And the vine, the vines grew away from the rock and roll and towards the orchestrated music. You've not heard this? This is so interesting. No, I'm so glad you mentioned this because I have read so many studies in my own research and in all my projects and everything that I do. But what amazes me and what delights

me so much is there are always more. And I'm so happy that people are interested in this and want to experiment with that. They now have a huge Bose stereo system or amplification system in the VI on the island of. I believe it's Sardinia. And so have you had any other studies or any relationships where wine or manufacturing of wine and music have synergy? Well, certainly many people have and many producers have and are working with music in the vine growing

process. Like Chateau Palmer is one of them. And, you know, they love jazz over there, so they play a lot of jazz in the box. And, you know, and it's, it's, you know, they're the fermentation areas. And then of course, the in barrel. There's a lot of people experimenting with different types of vibrations. People are doing this with, with bourbon too. I mean, like, there's. I'm trying, I'm trying to remember the, the producer, but there was definitely one bourbon distiller who, who

exclusively uses Metallica or something like that. And I thought that was very interesting because they want their ones like, they want their, their spirit to have that character. Um, but I'd like to be able to do a study where you isolate just frequencies so you don't actually have the, the other elements of music which make it so complex and so characterful and wonderful and that reach our senses.

But for the, you know, for something more of a isolated scientific experiment, it would be really great just to have certain barrels exposed to certain frequencies over a long period of time. And that's something that I'd like to explore doing with a winemaker who is. Who was willing to. And interested in what the results of that might be? Well, you know, they talk about wine and my dad used to

say this, and he was a chemist by trade. It's a living thing to the extent that it doesn't have a heart and blood, but it certainly is evolving. And there's a process going on in the bottle and in the tank, and maybe there's an influence there. But what is your specialty then? You wrote a thesis on the idea of perception of wine and music hand in hand of some sort.

Yeah. So the thesis that I wrote was actually not from the viticulture or the maturation process, but actually from the finished product and the sensory perception of anybody tasting the finished wine. So the name of the paper was somewhat long and unwieldy, but it is academic. So it's the influences of classical music on the sensory perception of a Brut non vintage Champag. So. Well, non vintage. And that was. That was very specific.

Yes, because for any experiment, you have to. You have to make sure that the scope is manageable, that you can. That your data will actually make sense. Right. You know, of course, I'd like to do many more. So, you know, I. I've worked on smaller experiments since then, maybe not as big as this one, because I had 71 participants over eight different sessions with nine to 11 participants each, each one of. Each one of them with tasting order music. Music order randomized specifically through

a Williams design Latin square randomization technique. And, you know, all those other things that come with a. A scientific framework for any experiment. Right. So I've been doing this cheaper to. Have it non vintage. Right. Well, one of the. One of the reasons that I wanted to do it for this experiment was because I wanted something that was very largely commercially relevant. Grootnov vintage is a tremendous

category. And the wine that I chose specifically was through, again, research on consistency across markets, on the sort of dosage tasting and all that sort of thing, because they can differ wildly between markets, dosage rates and other things like that. So I wanted one that was very, very consistent and that had a really great market presence. And of course, none of the people who took part in the experiment knew anything about what the experiment was, so they didn't know any of this.

But all that background work, of course, was very important to setting this up in a way such that the data would be useful and not confounding. You write this paper and you come to a conclusion. Did the conclusion support the premise that you started with, or did you find something different about the perception of wine through, particularly in this particular case, not vintage champagne, with the

introduction of music. So the simple answer to the question is both, because there's always surprises in any experiment. Right. And the thing that I was most terrified of was there would be absolutely no, you know, no effect at all. But if that was the case, I would still write that paper because that would be important to know, Right? That's right. I'm always going to let any of my personal thoughts get in the

way of this. But. But actually, among the 71 participants, there definitely was statistically Significant evidence towards an actual influence, but in very specific ways. Not every element was. Was statistically significant. And the ones that were, were really interesting. And then there were several things that. That did surprise me as well. So. So just to give a premise of this, it was the one wine, as you noticed in the title, it was Brut, not Brutnant vintage Champagne,

singular. So it was one control wine and four different pieces of music that were carefully chosen across a quadrant of different types of combinations of musical elements. Right. Because, you know, music has so many different textures. Right. And it can be fast, it can be slow, it could be bright and jumpy, or smooth and deep sounding, all those things. So I kind of had this quadrant and I made sure that there was a representative piece in every one of those

quadrants that hit all those combinations. And I worked with my past professors in my master's program to make sure that the pieces fit those and vetted it through them as well. So. So there was also a silence control. So people would listen and they would taste the glasses. They had no idea what was happening, what this was for. They just like having a free glass of wine. Right. This is great. Yeah. Five glasses in front of them. Five glasses in front of them. And. And they would,

and, and would listen to. I would play each piece and they would, you know, rate from 1 to 9 on all these different things, like, you know, the different characteristics of the wine. Freshness, like acidity. Right. Fruitiness, complexity, richness. You know, things like that. You know, one of those very characteristic things that we would want to know about any wine. Right. And then also they did how much they liked the wine and, you know, and then we

did this for the music. How much did they like? How much did they like the music? How would they rate it? Would they rate it as, you know, calm or exciting or character of the music? Right. And we also did this for the wine as well, so that we would have an analog. Like, was this wine calm or exciting? That sort of character type of thing. And it was so interesting as I spent a month crunching the data. And this is literally right before the pandemic lockdown. So I'm

really happy that I hustled and got my experiment together. And I did all my live experiments in December. Wow. Yeah. Without a mask. Yeah. And, yeah, because we could all get together and be like, you know, in person and drinking there's. And tasting wines, you know, all that sort of thing. And then in January, I crunched all the data and then through February, and then lockdown happened. And I had all the pandemic to analyze my data and

write this paper. So it was very interesting. So it's really, it's a. It's relatively recent. And I was a marketing research student at usc and we used a product called sas and it was basically takes all that data. Now, of course, we had to use virtually a mainframe to crunch data back then, and now you can do it on your phone, probably with the same app. But that's the interesting thing that you just did. Let's get back to sort of the practical

part of this. You had two parallel interests in your life. You're a Master of Fine Arts, you're a piano player, you sing, you play the trumpet. And you were exposed to wine as a young girl and had this affinity towards the subject. And you bring them together. And it would seem to me not unlike going on vacation and having a glass of Chianti at a trattoria in Italy. And that tasting different

to you when you get home with the same wine. And because the experience has changed, but you've put it in sort of a lab environment, change the experience, and came up with actionable. I mean, is it actionable data or just academic data that we can now say, yeah, this, there is a experiential difference between what you're drinking and what you're listening to. So, yeah, the results were really interesting actually, because some of it corroborated some of the data that

had come in the studies before, before me. But I was really, really surprised that there were no studies that focused specifically on a sparkling wine, because with the presence of. Of carbon dioxide in these bubbles, I mean, it really makes a difference. And so I

really wanted to focus on that. And what was really interesting was that pieces that were, that had fast tempo and had a generally a higher pitch, so the tones were a little bit higher, were generally perceived as much more fresh, refreshing, vibrant and effervescent. And the piece that was the exciting, bright and light and had those characteristics was deemed the

best wine of all. When, however, people listened to that because it was the same wine, but people didn't know this and everybody thought the wines were different except for out of 71 participants,

70 people thought the wines were different. And we had a great split between people who were, who were really, you know, wine professionals, people who are master's, wine students, master song, you know, things like that, people in industry to just, you know, half of people who were just wine enthusiasts who enjoy wine but don't

really study. And it was the same around music too. There were people who loved classical music, who hated classical music, didn't study music, you know, all that sort of thing. So I did the, I did the statistical analysis to make sure that that wasn't a confounding factor. And I was lucky to have gotten a good split. Pretty much 50, 50 of all the different types. And it was crazy because the wine that was tasted in silence regards across the eight

groups, and this was completely in different order each time. That wine was terrible. The wine that was tasted in the silence was terrible. Even when somebody said, people said, oh, my gosh, this is Mazorski's pictures at exhibition. I hate this piece. Good Lord. And you know what? That wine was still way better than the one that didn't have music with it. Isn't that crazy? Wow. No wonder that surprised me a lot. I mean, I still get the shivers when I relay

this because it was just so. I mean, I went through my data over and over again to be like, really, like, I mean, even, you know, the wine professionals, when they say, like, you know, people training for massive exams, like, you know, WSET or the Guild of Master Songwriters or mw, they would, they would say, specifically listening to anything while tasting is absolutely, you know, it's taboo. Like, we don't want anything to be interfering with our process. Right. Wow, that's. And then

be like, so listening to music. I don't like listening to music with this. But you know what? The wine without any music with it was just the worst wine. It scored lowest on effervescence. It was flat, it was unbalanced, it was bitter, too acidic. Wow. But really pretty granular in its change. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, it was the least liked wine all across the board. And even when somebody didn't like the music, the wine was way better and way more

imbalanced. And just, you know, it was so interesting because there were two pieces that were deemed probably the most favorable. I mean, well, the wines were rated the most favorable with two particular pieces of music and that they were two contrasting pieces, but they were both very fast and high pitched and with very dynamic articulation. Meaning it's not just really smooth tones, but like more jumpy, exciting. But one of them was very light. One of them was the finale to Camille

Saintson's Carnival of the Animals. And if you've ever watched Fantasia 2000 by Walt Disney, it's the one with the flamingos and the yo, yo. Oh, it's awesome. It's fun and it's just, it's very light. It's very jumping and people love that. They're like, this is bright and exciting wine. It's effervescent. It's just wonderful, just really, really lovely wine. One of the best wines. And then the other one on the other side was also exciting, was also high pitched, but instead of light, it was,

it was passionate, it was bold. You know, it was Brahms Violin Concerto 3rd Movement, which is very, very tempestuous in a lot of ways and extremely passionate. They rated that one as, yeah, very, very effervescent, very bold, but richer, much more complex. And listen, it was like, it was almost like they were describing a vintage campaign at that point. It's fascinating for a couple of reasons. One, it explains why when I, my wife's giving me the silent treatment, my wine doesn't

taste as good. A few more other aspects of that that I could appreciate that. So now I understand that part, that aspect of my home life. But, you know, I wonder if this. I want to get on some other subjects, but I wonder if this affects like I, you know, spent my life tasting wine on Tuesday mornings for 35 years and, and went to hundreds of probably trade

tastings within a variety of environments. And you don't even think about that fact that maybe the background noise, the general noise or the background music being played at a restaurant. I was just at a Melrose restaurant at a tasting and, and you know, there's music in the restaurant. There might be an effect on what I'm tasting based on what's being played besides what snacks they have and things.

Yes, absolutely. That's kind of interesting. And so the, the Master of Wine folks, this is your thesis for your Master of Wine, correct? Yes. Do you think you're crazy like doing this or did they have a supportive position on it or that were they anxiously waiting for the results? Well, see, what it is, is, you know. You mean the, the examiner team. Yes. When they read it. Okay. I have no idea. Like the candidate doesn't know anything what

happens. They're just, they're going through, I mean they have to look at every paper with a very judicious eye and make sure that it is a sound paper. There aren't holes in it. There aren't just allegations being made without being supported and making the framework is correct and the analysis, the sound, all those things. And so of course I was very much waiting on pins and needles for, for the, the phone call because they will call you and tell you whether you pass or you haven't.

And wow. I, you know, so I, I don't know how they were feeling when. When they read this paper, but I only hope that it was very interesting for them. And then it was. It was somewhat of a. Of a pleasure to. To. To go through. But I remember that phone call so vividly because I was trying to calm myself, and I obviously could not calm myself. And I was sitting at the piano and playing and I played. I played pieces like three to five times faster than

I would ever play them because I was so nervous. Yeah, slow it down. That's really interesting. So let's, let's delve into the MW a little bit. I had a great conversation, I told you, with Tim Hanai yesterday about some of this and, you know, the, the Master of Wine for the listeners, you know, probably the most coveted, difficult certification degree to get in the wine trade. But it's not as academic as I thought it was. There's a lot of practical study that comes to this, the marketplace,

you know, to flip it around. When I tasted wine, I don't consider my skill set all that great, though. I can do it to describe wines and structure and the sensory part of it, but I certainly understand the value of any wine that I taste because I tasted so many 5, 10, 15, 20 $500,000 bottles of wine in my career that, you know, that's. I consider that my specialty. You can't do it all in this industry. But it is. There is a practical side to the mw, not

just blind tasting. Being able to describe character or figure out a vintage or figure out a location of origin. Oh, it's much more than that. And that's why I thought it was a wonderful path to challenge myself with, because there is absolutely no textbook for this sort of thing. It's a breadth and depth of understanding of all aspects and all reaches of the industry. So starting with viticulture, from soil science to music in the vineyard. Yeah, I never learned that much

about soil cationics exchange. It's fascinating stuff. Right. But, but, you know, going to go through those agricultural practices and what kind of, you know, economic and, and, you know, sustainability and other types of considerations there are that affect those decisions in, in, in agriculture and in grape growing, even what variety you choose, et cetera. And then, of course, going on to winemaking, the, the chemistry of winemaking, but also the,

the. The decisions that come in there. Always, always economic and market pressures that affect decision making as well as, you know, what is the dream and what is the goal. Right. From everywhere, everything from bulk wine to Petrus. Right. So an understanding of all aspects of the market. And then, you know, the,

basically the logistics side, which is really fascinating. I learned so much, you know, about, about QA and qc, about, you know, just all the specifically specifics of transporting wine, what kind of, you know, like oxygen transfer rates when bottling, you know, Sarbanes,

Oxley, all these other things, ISO standards. And you know, what, what is important to this and, and it really helps me appreciate so much more what goes into even, you know, just maybe not two buck chuck itself, but something like it. You know, it takes, it takes a bit to even get, you know, any bottle of wine out there. And of course, not all bottles of wine are created equal. Equal, but it's. Where is the, where, where's the effort? Where's the quality in context and for value?

Really, really helps you appreciate that. And then of course, on paper 5, 4 and 5, the 4 is about the business of wine. So like you said, some very practical aspects, but always analyzed and synthesized and, and examined in a very academic way, which I really appreciate too, because you again, you know, not just Bordeaux, not just California, not

just, but all around the world. And all different price points, all different categories because wine is a commercial product and it is available across so many different markets, so many different price points for so many different categories and use cases. Right. Is there another product that is like wine in that. Yes, it's a commercial product. So I've been driven by

consumerism. There are organizations throughout the world that promote that and that actually support wineries in understanding that. But then there's this academic side which you studied and just not the least of which is studying music and the influence on the palette that is completely not ignores, but is devoid of the commercial side. It's a whole study and I don't think one can exist without the other. In other words, if we remove profitability from the wine, would we have a

different industry? Would we have a different product? Would we be only focused on terroir and character and driving those, those, those metrics? Yeah, that's a really interesting question. I love the way you put that because they do go hand in hand. I mean, I've always loved academics, but I also want to do things. And so I don't want to live in the proverbial ivory tower

because I want something to. I want it to be useful, you know, and that's why I wanted to do this thesis as well in this particular study, because it does have implications for the presentation of wine. Right. Whether it's in a tasting room, in a restaurant, like you Mentioned earlier, I do a lot of research on, like, sort of retail atmospherics in a sense, like in restaurants or in tasting rooms, like, how do we calibrate the

music? What kind of. What kind of clientele or what kind of feeling do you want in the a.m. versus the afternoon versus evening? You know, we're going from like, you know, Breakfast at Tiffany's to, like, you know, a nightclub at the end of the day. What kind of music, how many beats per minute? Right. How many beats per minute, decibel level? Because there is an effect on how. How people will order, how they will consume, how fast, how slow, you know, and that sort of thing. There is

a lot of effect. So it's a lot of the research and work that I do now, too. It just hit me that I asked this question of winemakers quite frequently, and I get the variety of answers, and sometimes I only understand the question, like, what is the end game? We work on trellising, we work on understanding the micronutrient exchange at the tap root level and all the things that go into that. You studied at the mw. But what's the end game of that? And I'm

waiting for them to tell me. This is about extracting the best terroir and making sure that every wine is expressive of its vintage and in soil. And maybe it's not, you know, maybe it's. Maybe the end game is just to sell more and to produce a wine that will be more commercially acceptable. And I'm not talking about, you know, apothic red and Josh and the wines are in the supermarket. I'm talking about a level of wine that is sophisticated, complex, and driven by, you know, its location and

its vintage. But let's just focus on that marketplace. What is the end game, do you. Think, for these people who study the master of wine? Is that what you're asking? Well, no, the winemakers, what would the winemakers. What would be the end game of all the things that go into making wine to change? In other words, the Burgundians made wines in the 12th century, and they're different than today's Burgundies.

Right. So why. And then if we are monitoring and checking all the metrics that we have and we know all these amazing statistics and chemistry breakdown of a wine these days, what's the end game? What are we trying to do? Yeah, of course, it depends on the person, but I'd like to think that, and especially in the conversations that you and I have had with producers and vintners, it seems like, you know, There is a vision of creating something and then there are outside pressures that will shape

what that original vision is. And the, you know, it's not always a compromise, but sometimes there are things that, you know, you, you, your vision evolves necessarily through, through the lens and the context and the parameters of those outside pressures. Right. So I think that really what it is, what it is and you know, I think about it in a way that, you know, we all, we all want to be. If we want to put something out there, we would love it for people to like it and for people to like it,

then it's like they will give you feedback if you're lucky. And then you decide whether you want to be liked in that way or not. Right. And there are tough choices to

make about that. It's like, you know, when I decide, I've studied a lot of musicology along with performance practice for piano and music such that, you know, am I. So I'm faithful as much as I can to the composer, but yet where there are places where I can make an interpretation of this because it's coming from me and I have a vision and a dream of what this piece sounds like, you know, so other people might take issue with that. Like, you know, did Chopin really mean that, you know, in

this passage here? But at the same time, and you want, you want your performance to be, to be liked. You want people to enjoy your playing so that, you know, they will, they will hire you again, they will want to hear your music again. At the same time, you can't play it if it's not coming from

you. Right? But you have to really do all that groundwork and all the academic stuff and all the theory stuff and all the practical stuff like getting it in your fingers and get it in your body so you are true to the composer as you understand it and you've done your work there, but then the rest is up to you because it has to come from you and express that. And I think it's similar with winemakers who are dedicated to what they are creating and they have

a vision. We all have a vision. We've done the work and we're still doing the work. The work never ends. I mean, I'm learning more every time. I mean, whatever piece that I've sat with for years, I'm learning something. New pieces take years and wines take years. And I think it's a very, very similar concept in that regard

because it's, it's a never ending journey. But you do have to listen to, to, to what, what those outside pressures are, and especially if you do want to sell anything, but that's the case is that, you know, people will sometimes, if they have the luxury, not have to worry so much

about that they don't have shareholders to answer to. They're able to make more decisions in the way that they wish or they have, you know, a lot of, they have a huge seed investment or funding to be able to work with and they can really shape the vision the way they want it and then see what people say and decide what they want to do there.

And in others, they might have to, they might have to, you know, kind of capitulate a little bit more in the beginning, but then as they, as they gain renowned notoriety or what have you, then they will have the means to be able to do maybe a spin off project that really is more of their experience, direct expression of their dream. That's a really great analogy and it goes back to this scenario. I'll

paint that in a second. But the idea that, you know, wine, I mean, music, right, Somebody could be very mathematically attuned to what music is. They say, Dennis from, you know, the Beast Boys was a math genius when it came to music. And, and versus the passionate art of music, that will change the interpretation of the math,

right? So you're going to play a thing. So this leads me to this question that I ask sometimes, which is maybe with your master of wine experience and what you've studied, we can peel it back a little further. And that is if I have a vineyard manager or winemaker who's been studied the Same vineyard for 25 years, he's made 25 vintages, she's made 25 vintages. And going into a vintage that you probably start to feel what we think is going to happen, we start to feel this, what this wine might

be. We see the vines growing and we've got so much experience watching these vines and, and the change of weather in terroir that we start to form an opinion of what this vintage is going to be like, what it should taste like, versus somebody that's traveled the world, made 25 different vintages at 25 different places. Armenia, Romania, South Americ, Bordeaux, Burgundy, you know, whatever, Spain. And you give them the same vineyard, we end up with two different products completely. Right.

And wouldn't that be the same in music that if you had somebody who's well versed across all forms of music on the piano versus one person that only studies Bach and they both sit down and play the same piece, you get two different pieces. I mean, even when, even when there's musicians who have, you know, both have only studied Bach or, I mean, that's, it's a tough one. Or they're two Bach experts and you'll get two different pieces. I suppose

that's right. Much less people who have like, you know, studied all the, you know, studied from like, you know, Scarlatti all the way to, to, you know, past, gosh, like, you know, John Adams or whatever, we would still sit down and like, you know, play maybe like the same Chopin nocturne that many people have

played. And it would be very different for sure. I mean, like when I, if I'm listening to the, if I hear music or if I'm listening to the radio and I, I don't know who is, who is, who's playing sometimes, like, I'll, I'll know, like, oh, it's that person, you know, because if you've listened to their recordings enough and you know, you. Know, yeah, you can just tell. And they do that certain thing or, you know, whatever. You just have that sense. So it really

is true. But it is an individual thing. And so absolutely. I mean, you will get two Chopin experts who will, who will violently disagree about a passage. It's so interesting because I used to talk about this to my customers in that, you know, if you, if you decorate your home with the same paintings artists, eventually you get a feel for that artist's painting and that everywhere you turn in your home you have a rendering or painting from the same artist

and wines the same way. If you taste enough of one wineries, wines from the same winemaker, despite the varietal difference in the location of the vineyards, you start thematically to feel who this person is. And I think that makes a ton of sense and jives with this art of wine, not the science of it. Do you, do you keep up then with the market side of this? I mean, are you. You're so embedded in the academic side and, and, and the complexity of wine.

But as a MW do on a daily basis or monthly, weekly, whatever it is, keep track of what's going on the consumer side in the marketplace, you know, what you see at the markets. Like, my wife hates it when I go to the market with her because I always go to the wine section to see what. To see what's going on. Of course, that's what we all do, right? Yes, I get it every day. Every day I look through at least three different news

aggregate aggregation sites and I check all links. I see what's happening and I keep up with, with numbers because like in the work that I do too for retail I work with fine wines and so I'm often, I'm always looking at what the market will bear. I'm looking at auction prices, I'm looking at what is happening in the Livex indices, the research that comes out from Wine Market Council, things like

that. So it's, and just the news in general like you know, daily 750 the buyer mining girls like they always have some really, really interesting like Wine Business Weekly. They always have really really great articles to, to see you know how the market is. And I also keep up with a restaurant and spirits constantly as well because the spirits industry is very important as well. And what's happening in restaurant on, on, on premise, off premise for both of those. So I, I look a lot

at that through the Brown Forman newsletters. I highly recommend that. There's a lot of stuff happening in there and then the, the, the shanken also on what's happening with, with cannabis because that's really important to what, what that, how that might, you know, affect the beverage trade. Well it's interesting you mentioned that part particularly Brown Forman since that's going to be you know, the mega, mega cycle part of wine and the

pure esoteric business side because that's what they're about. And actually I want to read you something I wrote as a response to the, the posting of the article where Constellation possibly is selling off all their brands, you know, which is Mandavi et cetera. And so I just wrote as a colloquial comment and I've never gotten so many replies from a comment how you make a comment on LinkedIn or something and then you know, once almost virtually nobody

replies to that comment. But I've gotten a lot of replies to this comment. What I wrote was because the margins suck, there's a generational gap in sales. There's too much crap was brought into the market souring the taste for wine, pun intended. But there is a, there's light at the end of the tunnel and that wine's been around for 12,000

plus years and it's not going anywhere. In other words, all these sort of market cycles and things that go on really are, are ineffective to the longevity and the value of the proper glass of wine. And I say that because there's a lot of lift service right now on the Internet, LinkedIn social about innovation and the marketplace. What we're going to do this, it's this catastrophic, you know, Dip in sales. And, you know, it's agricultural and it has its ebbs and

flows. There are foods and services that ebb and flow as well with popularity. But I don't think wine, wine being agricultural and having to be five to 10 years out, that you have to look at your marketplace and hopefully predict what's going to happen and you can't. And so now we stuck with the glut and prices are dropping and sales are dropping, but I don't see it as catastrophic. What's

your sense of that? Well, this is definitely a much needed market correction, I think, from what happened, especially during the, I mean, the pandemic was just a very, very strange thing for everybody. Not just the wine industry, but certainly there was a huge spike in sales. Yeah. For wine and spirits, for obvious reasons. How do we elevate the everyday when we're stuck at home? And certainly it was helpful. But then people, you know, when people drank their sellers and

then they decided to buy more and then they bought more and they would. One of the wonderful things that during that time was that people would, would call me up at work and be like, I'd like to be able to send a case of wines to my daughter because I can't visit her this year. You know, things like that, ways to show camaraderie and friendship and love, which was wonderful. And that's what wine's always been about too. Right. Good thought.

But then, but then market correction. Right. You know, we're seeing that with like, you know, champagne sales continue to fall, et cetera, et cetera. Champagne's not going to become irrelevant. I don't think anytime soon. There will be, like you said, ebbs and flows. But I think it is a good, There is always a good opportunity for us to think about, you know, the industry folks to think about. Can we rest on our

laurels? Can we always just keep doing things the way they are? It's always great to look around and see, well, you know, how can we meet people where they are? Who are these people? You know, we have to remember that and be able to speak to them in the way that meets them where they are. It's an opportunity to just, you know, continue to evolve with the world. Because as wine has continued to evolve the world throughout the centuries, since

antiquity. So I think it's, it's, it's more of a nuanced approach, but largely it's been able to come through, you know. But I think it's always good that we have more competition. People like, oh, you Know, people are going to cannabis or they're. They're going to RTD, you know, cocktails, etc. I'm like, well, that's good. It's good for the consumer always to have more choice. Sure. And it's just, you know, how do we. How do we find our place in that? You know,

and what's the use case? Right. So Barefoot Bubbly with Galo has an incredibly great use case, but. And they've been very successful with that. And so it just depends, like, what is. Who are you trying to be? Who are you trying to reach? What are you trying to be to them? Right. So funny you said that. I had Mike Houlihan on the show with Bonnie, his partner,

you know, the creator of. The creator of Barefoot. Yeah. And I had this anecdotal story because in 1989, he came to my office and I just started with my father, and we had this little tiny warehouse in. In Redondo beach. And really, I mean, literally, you could barely stand up in the second floor office that we had. And he came to visit and he had just acquired this 40,000 gallons of. Of. Of red wine. I don't remember what vintage, what the varietal it was. Didn't know what to do with it. It was

a debt somebody had paid him, a debt in wine. And so he would never been in the business trying to figure it out. And so he came up with this barefoot thing. He's gotten the name from Davis Bynum. They had a retired label that they called Barefoot Barefoot Sellers. Anyway, I called my father after he left, and he's a very hyper dude. And I called my dad. I go, dad, you won't believe this guy. He comes in here and he's got this wine. He calls it, you know, the Lafitte feet

of the California wine. And I was so like, you know, I didn't even. I wasn't even in the wine trade yet, effectively, but I still thought that was, you know, sacrilegious. And I thought, what a stupid idea. And I told Mike this on the podcast. I said, we thought this is the stupidest idea ever, even though it became the biggest brand in America. You know about that. But this is something you said important, and we're running out of time, but I want to address it.

And I think wine is totally different than anything else in this regard. And that is when you said, meet them where they're at. You know, there was a post on Facebook the other day, if somebody had gone to Paris Wine and. And spoke with a vendor and they were touting that they had just sold 24 million cans or bottles or something of, of a wine fermented grape juice product and how exciting that was. But it was peach flavored, whatever. Okay. So I mean, I suppose that's

meeting the consumer where they're at, right? They're able to sell 24 million bottles. Yeah, that's pretty good, Pretty good number. But gosh, doesn't that fly in the face of what, you know, a good glass of wine could be, an honest glass of wine. This whole thing that we started the conversation about how it brings people together and they talk about it, I mean, are you going to talk about your peach flavored. Well, you know

what it could be. It's, it's, you know, like people talk about what's, what's your starter, you know, thing. Right. What gets you into the category. Right. I mean, remember Boone's Farm strawberry? We sold a lot of that. Right. So does, do people brag about that? Maybe not, but there's good memories built on that. Perhaps just like the Barefoot Peach, you know, whatever it is. And then maybe later they'll be, they'll be exploring some other things when they

have learned a little bit more. They see, they see other bottles in restaurants and they, then they get a little bit more spending power and they'd be like, what's that? Right. So they already have an entree, which I think is really important. And the other aspect of meeting them where they're at is sort of like,

you know, messaging in general too. Right. You know, so, you know, maybe not just like, you know, showing a fancy looking label and saying like, you know, drink tradition, you know, something like that. It's not that people are doing that per se, but you know, a lot of, I mean there's so many proliferating articles about like how to reach audiences on

TikTok, you know, and that sort of thing. Like, you know, keep it bite sized, keep it like, you know, about behind the scenes, you know, that sort of thing. And I'm showing people doing crush or whatever and keeping irreverent and very small bite sized little, you know, segments, video segments. Right, there's that. But I think, you know, that can be useful as well. But at the same time, I think it's all those things like what is it that they do want, do they want the peach flavor to start with?

Right. You know, or just in general. Right. They want it to be sessionable. They want to be able to bring it to the, to the beach or to. Or they want to Be able to be at Coachella music festivals and, you know, not be carrying around stemmed glassware or even, you know, whatever it is. Right. So. But still have a great time. And, and it's, it's, it's taking those into things into account. You have to say, okay, is this us, though? Like, you know,

do we, do we want to expand in that area? Or are we, are we, you know, firmly where we're at, which makes sense for a lot of producers and then it maybe doesn't make sense for others. So it's like, interesting thought because, you know, 70s had white zinfandel. You said Bartles and James Boone's farm. Maybe some of the memories of Boone farm aren't so great if you're in high school, but whatever. But that's an interesting thought because I had. Chad Ludington is coming on the show.

I don't know if you know him, but he's quite the academic historian of wine. And he was saying that. And this goes to your idea of, well, people come to the table with something peach flavored wines, Boone's Farm, and then they, eventually we'll move into something more. More a finer wine, let's say. And he said that there's a doctor, a PhD anyway, who's discovered why we get bored of the same profile and particularly sugared profile, that sweeter things tend to fall flat on our palates

eventually. And we want more complexity, more dryness and necessarily talking about wine only, but that our palates evol from tasting the same old thing over and over again. And this is why there's hope for people that start with peach flavored wines and for the industry to move into other things. But here's really what I want to get to wrap this up. But there's a lot of complaining on the web about innovation and the wine industry slow and the wine industry blah,

blah, blah. And I keep thinking to myself a. Yeah, it is slow because it's only once a year, right? You, you can make cider whenever you want, you can make soda whenever you want, you can make beer whenever you want, but you can't make wine whenever you want. So that cycle is minimum of 12 months. Besides barrel aging and everything, everything else

and the other is there's, there's a lot of smart people in this industry. I mean, we're not, it's not just farmers, which is, of course, one of the requirements to be in this industry is to be farm oriented, but agricultural oriented. But there's a lot of people that have come from other industries that have made a lot of money or been very successful. Industries have, industries have brought their knowledge base, their drive, their

enthusiasm, their inspiration to the industry. And it, it kind of gets to me that the whole industry is being categorized as behind, not innovative. They don't listen to the people and all the things that go along with, I'm sure the articles you've read or heard about. And, and that's just an opinion I'm looking for. It's like I have this problem with that accusation on the two premises. One is it's very slow because once a year. And two, how can you say that when there's

so many smart people that do this? I know, it's interesting. Thank you. And you. So many, so many people out there. This industry is very inspiring. I absolutely agree with you. Just the people, the people in this industry are amazing. And the more I meet, the more inspired I am and just like, wow, you know, again, there's so much to learn and so much to share. But you know, it's interesting how perception can become, you know, a form of reality. Right.

And I think there might be an echo chamber, a bit of an echo chamber effect happening with this because you know, a lot of this happens in media now. I mean people, I mean a lot of people are, journalists are trying to do their very best. But then there's a lot of other, there's a lot of outlets that sort of, you know, maybe it's even AI now that's just taking those and scraping those and summarizing them in a, in, in a bite sized form and missing some of the important

concepts. Right. So that could be part of it. But I think more to your point, you know, I think, I think the fine industry has been actually quite innovative, especially in the last 10 years, packaging, you know, cocktails, you know, craft cocktails, getting, you know, wine into that, especially for fortified. I mean if you look at what Croft has, has done and you know, the port industry has done in general and, and really trying, and, and Sherry trying to get, you know, their, their,

their wines into craft cocktails. I mean that has taken some, some traction, right? Yeah, it's really, really fun stuff. And then. Yeah, besides packaging, besides that, you know, and also just, you know, what it, what it means, you know, like wine, wine and cans being sessionable even in bag and box and things like that. Turning the tide with Tallest Creek, you know, really lending a lot of legitimacy to this on a, on, on a, you know, close to a premium level now.

So I mean, that's really fascinating. I think there's just more risk taking actually happening and more risk taking happening in the side where consumers really aren't seeing it, unfortunately, which is, you know, in, in the vineyard, like, because of climate change, you know, what, what great varieties are we choosing now? Are we changing that? Are we moving sites or we have greater sustainable practices. And this is where I do see some activity

happening, which is great. Which is the message of what are we doing to. To be sustainable? What are we doing to. To make sure that we're doing stuff that is not harming generations to come. Right. Whether it's the land, whether it's the animals, whether it's people, everything, Right? So, and that really fits into, again, meeting people where they are and what narratives they are, they, they are attuned to right now. So I think that that is a great place of

change, innovation. Because, you know, there's a, there's a saying that my aunt used to say was, you know, like, oh, you know what I said? Like she was being courageous about something because I always think she's fearless. She said, you know, courage, courage is always just scared out of you. That's right. And it doesn't translate as well from Chinese, but I think

you get the point. And I think that's really what it is like, you know, climate change, other realities that then those outside pressures will force innovation. And that's not necessarily a bad thing. But I, but I think that there's a lot of, there's a lot of good momentum going for this in terms of innovation in an industry. But again, to your point, it does happen. Maybe some of the aspects happen more slowly, but some of

the commercial aspects I think are happening really well. It's a questioning of reaching people in terms of. That's a great argument. I didn't think of that in the argument in defense of the industry that sustainability, biodynamic farming, organic farming is innovation. It just to keep up with. And it's hard innovation because those are long cycle things. Just to become organic takes minimum three years kind of thing. So I didn't think of that. I think that's a great analogy and description of

what the wine industry has done. And that's a mega, you know, that's a mega one. That's a macro change in innovation because that, that is hard. And I'm not sure I agree with all the certification required and all that, but I think in general the thought process for wineries to be sustainable and probably, probably an industry that is most likely to benefit and most obvious to have sustainability along with organic farming, which, you know,

that whole argument, that's a whole other discussion. But I'm gonna ask you a quick question and we're gonna call it a day. Started in 56 minutes. But this is a book written in. It was originally a French book. It's called Wine is the Best Medicine. And since you're an academic, we're gonna ask you a question. And it's Dr. Murray, and he is an M.D. also homeopathic doctor. And he's written this book about human maladies and the curative

character of a wine. And this is much like the mw. See, it's not about the answer necessarily, though the good answer. Right answer is good, but it's how you arrived at that answer. Like, why did you say that? So I'm going to give you a malady, and I'm going to give you three choices of French wines. Oh, my goodness. And that could solve this. Now, don't. You're not on the hot seat because only 33% of people get it right. So it's really pretty much random. Wow. Unless you study this guy.

So. And then there's. And then the. In the book, it tells you why he chose it. So if you, let's say, have an allergy, would you have a glass of dry champagne? Would you have a Madoc red? Or would you have a coat de bone for an allergy? And why would you choose that? You mean like sort of a hay fever kind of allergy? Yeah, I guess we'll see. Yes. Could be metaphor. I mean, the. Okay, the research is, is still ongoing for histamines and biogenic amines.

But as we know, fennel just, you know, from, just speaking from the way that wine grapes are comprised of, you know, what they are comprised of, rather, the two red wines are going to have a higher level of biogenic amines and histamines. So in that case, we would go with the champagne because it might, just might just be a light and make you feel better in general. But, you know, it's. Of course the Cote de Bonne is going to be a little lighter as well. And the tannins, tannin content

is lighter. And that. Then of course, the, the, the third wine there would be the richest in that. And of course, people who would, who love, who love a richer mouth feel and just a little bit more texture and tannins on those wines are going to love those. Because I know just, just from like, you know, anecdotal evidence, no matter what people say they like or don't, if they like Something. Whether they have an allergy or not, they'll still feel better after drinking that. Okay, that's funny.

Who answered? Who said that once? That was one of the guests. And they like, well, it doesn't really matter. Oh, it was a PhD doctor. She, I forgot which PhD was it? But she's like, it doesn't matter. You're going to feel better. Well, I'm sorry to say this. It was the Madoc. And it's, it's funny because it says it's because of the potassium and the reactions. It says, talking about allergies. Reactions appear as secretions in the mucous membranes or edema of the subcutaneous cellular

tissue produced by an excess of serious production. These unpleasant reactions do not prohibit the reasonable use of an appropriate wine. And I said Madoc because it's rich in natural potassium. This alkaline metal in small doses acts as a water excretion. Okay, okay, you've gone out from that aspect, which is really cool. And I didn't know that about potassium in terms of secretion, so that's really interesting. I was thinking about it from like a hay fever point of view, which,

you know, people take antihistamines for. Yeah, no, that, that makes a ton of sense because, you know, people complain that the sulfites are giving them problems. It's really not. Okay. Well then let's see if we get this right. The, the, the dosage. I mean, he's a doctor, so he's getting a prescription. I love this. Sorry. It's two glasses a meal, which would be effectively probably back then a bottle a day. That's not so bad. Wow.

Anyways, fun book written in the 70s. You can get it in French and you can get it in the French and English. It's called Wine is the Best Medicine. That's fascinating. I'm gonna have to read this. Well, we're gonna have to do this again because we have so much more to talk about. But that's the end of today's session and I do call it a session. It's kind of like a psychiatrist session because we can air some of this stuff out. It's such a

pleasure to have you on the show. Likewise. It's. I love speaking with you. I mean, I feel like we could, we could just keep talking and I. So much to learn from you. I know. So I can't wait till the next time. I appreciate that. We will do it again. And, and I'm going to watch a couple more of your videos here and read more of your documents. So we get back together, we can dig a little deeper. Thank you. I would love that. Cheers. Cheers. Thank you.