Okay, we're live. Hi, this is William Ramsey. Welcome to William Ramsey investigates on today's show of a very special guest, a return Against. His name is Philip Fairbanks. We talked back November six, twenty twenty about a book. He just published, an excellent book. The title of that book was Pedalgate Primer The Politics Politics of Pedophiliam and his website is his full name phil Fairbanks dot com. You can see it on the screen here on YouTube. But I was
looking around. I've done some research recently and I've had this consistent kind of name pop up over and over of mk Ultra. So I did an interview with somebody about the killing of Martin Luther King, and the author's name was let's see, I can't remember it right now, but the book was Who Really Killed MLK? And mk Ultra popped up. So I was like, oh, I didn't know that James rol Ray was affiliated with the mk
ulture program. And then I've been looking through some other stuff and I watched this video I know about Sirhan Sirhand. I've interviewed Lisa Piece, who might have a number one book about that case, and his whole mk Ultra connection. And then I really watched a really good video which I can post here and i'll post in the show notes. I recommend people check it out. It's the title of it on YouTube is can you Be Programmed to Kill? On Command? Sir Han's fascinating story and is put together
by Chase Hughes who runs the Behavior Panel. And then you need to check out the Behavior panel too. Oh really, really really fantastic how these guys can put people together. So it's really kind of about human behavior, but it's also about our history. It's kind of like a lost history chault, which I do in some research, but it's a long thing, and it also pops up in Chaos who I interviewed Tom O'Neil about Operation Chaos and Jolly West. But we can talk more about that. So Philip Fairbanks,
welcome to the show. Thanks for coming back. Oh thanks for having me. Awesome. So for people who may not have heard our earlier interview, can you kind of talk about your background? And you had done an interview about this subject of mk Ultra, which is why I reached out to you. Can can you talk about that then we can kind.
Of oh yeah, well, you know Honestly, I think mk Ultra was probably one of those like turning points I was. I was eighteen when I first learned about it. I had recently turned eighteen, you know, and I don't know as soon like when I first heard about well, the CIA did mind control experiments with LSD, and I heard it from a guy who was like an acid head. So I'm like, this guy's making this stuff up. This guy's crazy. And then I look it up. I look up mk ultra and well that's all she wrote. It
was definitely a major turning point for me. I think there's some things that you can learn that once you kind of wake up to that it colors everything else, you know, you'll see to date. And mk ulture was definitely definitely the case for me. You know, It's it's something that I've been interested in for years. And one of the things is, you know, everybody gets hung up on the LSD stuff, and you know, and that's a big part of it. But I think it's a lot
bigger than that, you know. I think that the cultural control stuff, like you know, the the CCF, the Congress for Cultural Freedom and you know, the Human Ecology Fund, you know, working in anthropology, and you know, there's a whole lot more to it than just you know, Kentuckians up for seven days straight on LSD and you know,
all that stuff's really interesting too. But you know, especially in recent years, that and another thing that I'm really fascinated by is noticing these institutes, these institutions that pop up over and over again, you know, universeveries. Often they'll have a BSL three or BSL four lab. You know, that's another thing that I see a lot, you know, the connection between like Stargate and mk ultra, the connection between biological Warfare and mk ultra. You know, there's all
these little tangents. So it's it's it's a whole lot more than just LSD experimentation, though.
I agree. Can you talk about those two things, the Human Ecology Fund and the CCF, because they do tie into just how broad and vast mk ultra was. People don't know. But you'd had tons of subparts.
Right, oh yeah, exactly. Yeah, Yeah, there's there's like, you know, over one hundred subprojects.
You know, the whole thing.
Started out as Project Bluebird, then later became a Project Artichoke, and then in nineteen fifty three it became mk Ultra and all those you know, different subprojects. But you know, apart from the you know, awful human experimentation and whatnot, Uh, there was a huge cultural control element. You know, you've got a mocking bird where we have you know, uh, basically,
you know, folks embedded within the media. Uh, you know, editors and owners of newspapers and magazines, reporters running their stories by the CIA. Uh even after the Church Committee hearings, you know, uh Bernstein, Carl Bernstein wrote the piece at Rolling Stone about the CIA uh using reporters because a lot of that was held back. You know, they were fine with letting people know, oh yeah, you know, we
we dosed people with LSD without their knowledge. We did these awful experiments, but they wanted to keep that part secret, uh, even when the Church Committee. So that tells me that that's that's important stuff. You know, the Paris Review, Kenyon Review, all these major like literary and art journals, uh are are getting c i A money through front organizations, you know, the the Human Ecology Fund SRI. Uh. You know that
that's just just a couple of examples. I also recently read an article by Julian Assange from Wiki leagues on the take and loving it when I was looking up the Human Ecology Fund, because once again, the stuff that they were doing in the social sciences and anthropology, uh, stuff like Stanley Milgrim's Conformity Experiment or the excuse me, Solomon Ash Conformity Experiment, the Stanley Milgram consent to Authority Experiment,
Phillips Lombardo's Stanford Prison Experiment, all this kind of research, you know, and even going back to like you know, uh, doctor Watson and Baby Albert. You know a lot of this you know, early behaviorism stuff, and then.
You know that was financed through the now Watson and whatnot.
That comes a little earlier, and that's another that's another issue that that I think is worth bringing up. You know, the the received history of m k Ultra is what happened was we had these you know, soldiers who were brainwashed by the North Koreans, and so now we know that they've got this technology and we've got we've got
to get it ourselves. Now. I don't buy that story because if you look at the Wendell Johnson Monster Experiment, if you look at Ghsterbrooks, we were already working on this stuff in the thirties and forties, right, you know, we like to blame it on the Nazis. Oh well, you know that was just human experimentation the Nazis were doing and when they were brought over in Project paper Clip by the CIA.
No, we were already some of the experiments that were going on in.
The US inspired the Nazis before they got imported after Nuremberg. So so yeah, the the complicity of academia is a big part of this.
It really is the media. You know, like once again people.
Think mind control, they don't think how subtle mind control can be. And I think that the cultural element. I think that's the reason why you know, there's so much emphasis on just the LSD stuff, because the cultural control element, that's where it gets really really subversive, right right.
No, that's a great point. And calling it mind control is like calling something cooking. It's a general term. I mean, there's so many some points about shaping history, shaping culture, Like you said, in the Human Ecology Fund, I think that comes into Timothy Leary when he was at Harvard thinking that he got money from the Human Ecology Fund for LSD. And uh, I mean there's just so many players. Can you talk about some of the main names, like you talked about Esterbrooks and was it the Quiet Room
or whatever, the Silent Room? Can you talk about what he was up to?
A yeah, g Hsterbrooks ruined the mind of Candy Jones. Candy Jones was an unfortunate subject who uh, you know, Esterbrooks was looking on a way to create like basically a perfect spy who wouldn't fold or buckle under torture. You can keep torturing them, but they don't have the
information until you say the secret code word. And you know, it's really interesting to me because Esterbrooks was uh, you know, he's uh, he's influential to some of the people who would be involved in the false memory syndrome foundation as well, which is which is in the news today, which considering the whole idea of creating a dissociative uh disorder where you have you know, the the personality splits and you
have these specific alters. That's literally the idea of dissociative identity disorder, which oddly enough, the false memory people are very against the like no, that that can't be done. So you know, it does make you wonder why you know, guys like Morris West u or Lewis West and Jollian West, which, by the way, I recently got, uh you know, I'll have to email those too.
You.
I got a couple of PDFs. I'm collecting some stuff from the u U c l A's Library Special Collection and you know, just really fascinating stuff. I got a couple of folders so far. One on the his work with cults and the Cult Awareness Network and also yes he was everywhere, Oh yeah, yeah, Jonestown Scientology, Charles Manson, Jack Ruby, Timothy McVeigh.
Over and over again again.
Yeah yeah, it's really it's really really uh suspicious where this guy shows up.
But sorry you because you mentioned the False Memory Syndrome Foundation. I want to put up on YouTube this document from nineteen ninety four and it details the executive directors and some of the people on the Professional Advisory Board. If you look on the bottom, it says Lewis Jollian West, right, but other names there and some of these are like the usual suspects, Richard Offsheet, Martin Orne, and the kicker is Elizabeth Loftis And do you know where Elizabeth Loftus is?
And absolutely yeah, I've actually spoken with her.
I've of course fonded a little bit. Yeah, where is she to tell the audience where she is?
I think she just got done testifying indefensive Galain Maxwell.
And you know, I saw somebody pointed out on Twitter the other day.
It's you know, it's kind of mind blowing the thing that the woman who defended Ted Bundy when he was just up on kidnapping charge before he broke out of jail and killed more women. That was Elizabeth Loftus, you know, uh O J Simpson, Bill Cosby, Uh, you know, just all the Woody Allen, Harvey Weinstein. You know, I remember talking to her and I was asking if the hate mail had subsided, and she's like, well, you know, I
was in the defense of a very unpopular person. I'm like, but you mean Harvey Weinstein, right, like you know, And.
I honestly kind of feel bad for her a little bit because I don't know if she realizes that it opposed me to world defending and I know, you know, the the party line is I'm not defending them, I'm just entering the science into the courtroom.
Okay, fine, but you're also being paid by the defense of awful people, so you are technically defending them.
She has a choice, she doesn't have to do it.
Oh yeah, yeah, it's six hundred and fifty to seven hundred and fifty an hour.
You know.
I encourage people who are interested check out the cross examination in the Robert Durst trial is It is fascinating stuff. And I honestly don't think she gets though how much this is going to hurt her, you know, legacy, because you know, I don't think I think maybe she's misled on some things. I think she's been used by some bad people. But I don't necessarily disagree with a lot of the science. I disagree with how it's applied and generalized. Like the she did the lost in the Mall study
and the lost in the Mall study. They were trying to implant false memories in people of being lost in the mall when they're a kid, and then they wanted to apply that to you know, can people be implanted with false memories of abuse?
Now?
One big problem with this there's another study that they did where instead of being lost in the mall, they said, you know, oh yeah, you got you had your the thermo or rectal thermometer you had your temperature taken rectally. Uh, And it was a lot harder to convince people that something had penetrated their orifice than that they'd.
Been lost in them all, lost in them all. That's easy.
You can convince somebody that they were lost in them all and they'll start remembering the person who found them, if a trusted family member or something starts talking about it. But yeah, so, uh, I do believe that there's there's a lot to uh, you know what, what she's done.
It's you know, applicable, it's it's good science. I just disagree with how that's it's kind of applied towards the idea of abuse, because traumatic memory doesn't work the same as regular memory, you know, And like that's one of the things when I talked to her, you know, we were talking about like pregnancy. There are people who go into fugue states during pregnancy. They're you know, soldiers who have you know, memory blocks and memory loss due to trauma.
You know.
She argued that it's kind of apples to oranges there, and that there's other factors like, oh, they didn't get enough sleep, and there's traumatic brain injury maybe, etcetera. Etcetera, etcetera. Well, a lot of that kind of thing is happening in a case of you know, physical or sexual abuse too.
If you're living with someone who's abusing you, you might you know, you might not get enough sleep, and you might also be being physically abused and you know, so if it applies there, I do believe that you could get a similar kind of state of you know, memory loss or more so a memory block. I think, because you know, there's some things that I believe that our brain does try to protect us from. Uh uh and uh for whatever reasons though, And by the way, loftus
Well also was a consultant for the CIA. Martin Orn, who's tied to mk Ultra was was the one who invited her onto the Scientific Advisory Boards. So you know, uh, there there are a lot of people who I would call like m k Alt adjacent. Michael Persinger is another one,
by the way, uh he he. He developed this helmet with these electrodes that would stimulate the temporal lobe, which you know in in like some people who are mystics and some people who are artists sometimes have issues with their temporal lobe, which causes you know, some uh, strange mental phenomenon.
So you know, he was.
Able to kind of like simulate something like a religious experience using electrodes. And you know, I find that really interesting, is it? It reminds me of you know, Nexium did some weird like MK ultra style experiments, which I honestly believe that that cults were probably or at least possibly used within mk Ultra I think, I think, uh that, Yeah,
you know, it blows my mind. How doctor West. You know, I'm reading through all these letters he's sending trying to get donation money for Cult Awareness Network, which ended up being taken over by scientologists later. That's that's an interesting side note to the folder I've got. You see that
happening like in real time. Uh, but it blows my mind because he's talking about all these coercive cults and the things that they do, and I'm like, are you is your issue really just the competition, because what these cults are doing is not worse than what the MK Ultra scientists were doing with psychic driving and sleep in all this literal mental torture. And now speaking of sleep deprivation, that's another one of the most interesting things about these folders.
I'm getting from the Special Collection is seeing the original typewritten documents and then seeing what was changed afterwards. Like, for instance, at one point, doctor West is talking about what is it? Uh, He's talking about how you know, sleep deprivation is helpful for extracting extracting information, and then it's like crossed out and it says effective. And I'm you know, I really wonder if that was him or his secretary who was like, now, we probably shouldn't say torture is helpful.
But here's the thing that was, Like what West would write stuff that he clearly knew. Yeah, I mean so, like there was a paper that he wrote in nineteen sixty five titled the Dangers of Hypnosis, which he said dangerous groups led by crackpots who will hypnotize their file and followers into violent criminality. He knows that's happening because he's doing it. Yeah, so that's the whole thing.
Yeah, Hey, you know we mentioned Sir Hans Sirhan earlier.
Sir Han joined the.
Rosicrucians and was hypnotized, and the rosa Crucians told him write down all your thoughts in this notebook and do mirror gazing exercises. You know, I really do believe that, Like I don't believe Sir Hans Sirhan killed RFK. I believe that he was there in order to shoot a bunch of you know, to shoot a gun and have everyone look at him so that the people who actually did it got away. You know, he was seen on a range with the woman in a polka dot dress,
and that same woman shows up at the assassination. There were more bullets fired than were in sir Han's gun. The bullets that went through RFK were a different caliber. But of course the LAPD lost the door, they lost, they burnt the pictures, you know, just a coincidence, kind of like a.
Huge evidentiary cover up in them.
Yeah, yeah, I mean, it's just they didn't even like, they didn't even try that hard. It feels like like, you know, if you're going to do a cover up, you should cover up the fact that you covered it up. But no, we know how many shots were fired because you can hear it, and there are still some surviving pictures where we see how many bullet holes are in the wall and the ceiling.
So no, there's all kinds of problems with that. At least of Peace actually said that she thought that he was a selected and he disappeared for like ten days or two weeks or something, and she thinks that's where he might have gone to be programmed in LA, which we know these guys were around at that time.
There were Yeah, yeah, West was at UCLA the neurobiology or Neuroscyie.
Psychiatric Institute nineteen sixty nine to nineteen eighty nine. It was when he was there. But there was another character whose name I can't remember, who was also doing this stuff. His name was oh Man, I can't remember it right now. But there was another guy around LA who was another
one of these doctors. And uh, but Lisa Peace said that Sir Hen, Sir Hen was probably selected, but she thought that they placed or somebody placed in all the opportunities of where Robert Kennedy was going to go out of the Ambassador Hotel. That there were different teams there with different Patsy's, can you believe it, right, So they were gonna get him one way or the other.
One Yeah, yeah, yeah, Like you know, it's kind of similar with the jfk assassination. It's likely that there were at least a couple of attempts around that same time.
Uh, they tried to kill in Chicago and Miami. Yeah.
Yeah, they definitely weren't gonna leave anything up to chance. They were gonna wait until the perfect moment. They had all their contingency plans blocked out.
And the whole bit.
About the cover up, you know, that's mk Ultra too, Project Mockingbird. You know, the the control of the media because people believe that if a story is.
That big, it will get out.
Well, it's not gonna get out if all the mainstream press is under the auspices of the CIA. Then if there's a CIA hit or you know, I mean, you know, even with John Lennon, uh, the the guy at the door, Uh, you know, his doorman had some CIA connections, like going all the way back to Kennedy and the Cuba stuff.
It's you know, right, was a Cuban immigrant, Yeah.
Yeah, who'd done some work with like he was he was potentially tied to the CIA stuff. It's it's uh, it's mind blowing.
I'm gonna play this video. Let me play the end of the studio of Chase Hughes talking about can you be programmed to kill? On command? Sir Ans fascinating story.
So partnering with the mob, yeah, we know that also for a fact. So investigators tell us that this ranch where Seirhan worked as a stable boy, the operator of this ranch had ties to the mafia, and that the mafia in turn had links to the CIA from their work together trying to kill Cuba's Fidel Castro. And then in Pasadena, Sirhan met a guy only known as Radio Man, and he's this guy who Sirhan met that shared Sirhan's
amazing interest in short wave radios. And they believe that Radio Man used what they call walking coercive persuasion and what they say is quote possibly hypnosis end quote to control Sirhan. And an investigator wrote the statements about killing RFK written in mister Sirhan's spiral notebooks, which Syrahan did
not remember writing. Quote were written by mister Sirhan in a hypnotic state and while communicating with a third party over his shortwave radio, and thus were coercively and involuntarily induced. Over the next two years, Searhan began visiting firing ranges not far from the ranch, with guidance from this radio Man on how to shoot at targets, and he spent about six hours at the range on the day of
the assassination. So if you're able to hypnotically program somebody to completely forget an entire event, also make them commit murder under hypnosis, and even make them act on command from a pinch on the neck by a woman in a polka dot dress, you think you might be able to make them also write something in a journal. I'm just saying, So let's dissect how this all could have worked.
Hypnosis is largely about three main things, association, suggestibility, and focus, And as focus becomes sharpened onto a single thing, hopefully the hypnotist or the hypnotist voice, suggestibility continues to escalate,
as does dissociation. Association is just separation from self like feeling like your conscious mind and unconscious mind are two different entities, and children who grow up with trauma get really good at association, and some people might mistakenly call this compartmentalization, But that's a completely another show we can do on that. Sear him and descriptions from every expert
who's interviewed him. Even in the opinion of the prosecution's expert, witness had no mental issues he was the ideal candidate, not just for hypnosis but full on programming with on demand amnesia just kind of just jabbed into the soft So this is a story about the inexplicable things a country will do to maintain power while they're calling power peace and the after effects of the mk ulture program I'm sure will be felt by thousands of people for
decades to come. It literally changed history. But here's the really scary part to me. The mind control program officially ended in nineteen seventy three when a Congressman yanked back curtain on this whole thing, figured it out super pissed off. But every time a giant conspiracy gets revealed, even with Eric Snowden's big reveal, we get told that it's all in the past, And for the last two hundred and fifty years, we're continually reassured that nothing like this happens
anymore until something else gets exposed. So seer Hand has been in prison for fifty one years at the time that I'm making this video for you, and the board has just now recommended him for parole. There's a lot of evidence I didn't cover.
In this video.
My goal was to show what's possible, not what necessarily happened.
All right, Sorry about that. That was probably went pretty long. But I think that's really interesting. So it tells you kind of what's going on with Sirrin. I recommend people watch that whole thing too, By the way, you know, you.
Know, also that whole case reminds me so much of Pinkley. The Phony Must Dies is the Catcher in the Right, right down to being encouraged to write down your thoughts in a notebook, which incidentally, coincidentally would later be well, look see it says here that excuse me, not Pinkley, but Chapman. Yeah, the Phony Must Dies, says the Catcher
in the Right. But yeah, I believe that Chapman and Hinckley were also like uh, sir hand style, you know, I mean, like you start sounding crazy when you start talking to candidates. But I think that's why. But what year did that movie come out? Right at the same time as Bluebird?
You know what I'm saying, Which movie mentoring candidate?
Yeah, you know, right before, right before Kennedy's assassination, you know, like a year or two before Kennedy's assassination. I think that sometimes.
You can get closer to your mic you're talking from the other side of the room.
Yeah. I think that a lot of times. Uh, you know, movies like that and stuff like.
Straight Philip, phil Can you get closer to your microphone? Yeah?
Hold on, can you hear me?
Yeah, I hear you fine, But you sound like you're talking from the other side of the room.
Oh okay, I'm not sure.
I don't know you sounded better before or did that?
I don't know. Oh, I don't know what happened.
I don't even.
But we'll sorry about that.
Hold on, can you just shove it closer to your mouth?
Yeah? Is this any better?
No?
No? Oh, my gosh, I don't know.
Anyway. Yeah, no, you you do start to sound crazy. But when you put everything together, there's like almost every assassination has some kind of MK person, And one of the things that kind of came to my attention was the name of James o'ray. I never knew that he was kind of an MK person. I had no.
Idea, and he was. He was also tied with with gun running, right, But.
Do you know that he was let out of jail like he had some kind of strange thing where he got let out of jail sixty seven.
Oh wow, No, no, I did not know that. That's that's very interesting.
Yeah, but it was Chuck Tolsen. So it was the lover of uh oh, the guy thehead of the FBI.
What was his name, uh Hoover.
Yeah, So Tilsen paid off somebody at the warden the Missouri State Prison to get James o'ray out because he was selected. Oh wow, and he had some mystery guy just like radio Man. He had Raoul remember, so some kind of person who's never named was his handler, and he was probably Mkaid. I mean, it's crazy.
That's a That's another thing. You know, you mentioned the mafia, you mentioned the Cuban connection, that they really do like to use the same networks over and over again. And incidentally, you'll see these same networks used for drug running, for human trafficking, for gun running. It's you know, it's it's it's the same guys over and over again doing these
same things. But yeah, no, I I definitely believe that, like like the Hinkley thing, I mean, come on, how do you buy the story of George H. W. Bush has never worked in intelligence? And then they go, Okay, we're just gonna make you the king of the CIA. Now they don't do that. You don't become the head of the CIA with no intelligence background. So what we know then is that he's got some intelligence background we don't hear about, which is maybe why he was in
Dallas on that day that Kennedy died, you know. And and then when when Reagan was nearly assassinated. I do believe that that was a hit. I believe that the that Reagan was supposed to die and Bush was supposed to become president, and when he didn't, that's you know, that that's why you end up with uh, you know, George W. Bush, his brother helps him steal the election in Florida. What a coincidence, you know, Like they they weren't gonna let that go. They they they got put
back maybe a decade or so. Uh, but but that whole bit and and once again this is like, uh, it's there's certain families too. It's not just institutions. There's certain families, uh, you know, like the the the Bushes and the Herman's and you know the Rockefellers. Uh, the church.
The Church committee hearings are are you know connected to the Rockefeller Commission, which is why there was such a cover up when m k Ultra did finally come to lie, that's why, you know it it took a while another year or so, or a few years or so before Bernstein, you know, kind of blew the lid wide open on the rest of Mockingbird. And how much the media was complicit in this.
That's incredible. And Reagan had just started his presidency if you remember, Yeah, I think it was like only in office for two months. So like the Chief Benefit, it's simples.
And the Cold War, you know. Yeah, And of course Hinckley was a friend of the Bush family, like.
One of them, yes, exactly, lital family, all kinds of stuff.
Yeah, what a coincidence. Hinkley by the way, you know he's on Twitter now right, No, he's he is a folk singer and he shares his music on YouTube and uh Spotify and Twitter.
Now.
Uh, it's it's it's kind of bizarre, you know, I don't know there. Of course, obviously a lot of people make the same tired old joke I love your work from the eighties over and over again, which was maybe funny the first time, but like, no, seriously, come on, get give Hinkley a break. He's already spent decades in prison. Just let him live his life now.
Uh yeah, crazy stuff. Have you ever heard of Darren Brown?
Oh I don't think so.
Yeah, this is good. This guy does mind tricks too. He does hypnotism on people. People can check this stuff out. But he literally, like ran a fake video game where he hypnotized a guy to think that he had been transported into the video game. It was incredible. You want to watch us. Yeah, let's see. Let me see if I can do this. So he this is it. He finally this guy is hypnotizable. So I'm gonna play this. I'll move it forward, but watch us watch the flashes. Put a couple of slashes in.
Now again.
Another flash, always going one more.
Oh, I'm gonna go. I'm gonna go.
See. I don't think this is fake. I think this guy's knows how to do this.
Darren Brown, we've been till that you're playing the game. What's his name? That's fine, exactly what that kind?
Yeah, we have they dragging him and put them into a room. This is crazy.
Yeah, the implications of that are pretty scary.
And then they wake them up there it comes out m.
M oh gosh, that is seriously scary.
Some people. There's a hypnotism like scale where some people are hyper suggestible.
Yeah. Yeah, there's a genetic element to that as well. Uh, some people are are are going to be more susceptible. Some people. Even if you're you're really skilled hypnotists, it's it's not gonna work.
Yeah, they just can't do it. I think sir Han sir Han was on the far end of the spectrum suggestible.
H h.
Because you can watch this, I'll put this in the show. But they just they just put him right back out. He had no idea much as much they brought him, brought him out of the hypnotism, he had no idea. Watches let's wake him up.
Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, waking is it because.
Okay, okay, let's go.
The science game.
And it's interesting. It was good.
It was like, I don't know if it's because it's an arcade, but as well, so it's really into it.
Is it going to be.
It's it's a product trying to develop it. It was good. It was good. It was really.
Exciting, just realistic shooting them and I don't die, you know, you got to keep shooting them and then and then when keep coming up against I loved it and I just felt like each of them usually the game is just a game.
I just felt had to kill each and every one of them had no idea.
I don't know what you've done.
The colors or something, but yeah, yeah, you should watch the Darren Darren stuff that scouse.
I think I think a lot of people probably discount hypnotism because you know, it seems hokey or silly, and like you said, different people are different, and there's a genetic element to it. But some people are not very hypnotizable, some hardly at all, some not at all, but some are highly suggestive. And you know, I I when I was my freshman year in college, I was really interested in you know, nl P and stuff like this. I got into hypnotism for a short time, and it was
like a party trick. It was a parlor trick I'd do with you know, with my my, my dorm mates or people hanging out and uh, one thing that I noticed, like, you know, I put somebody under and I'd ask him to go back to a memory that they wanted to relive. And a couple of times, however, it was like you know, one of my roommates wants to see his granddad for
the last time. And these are you know, eighteen nineteen year old like frat boys, reduced to tears when they come to you know what I mean, because they just saw their granddad, Like they remembered what shorts they were wearing when they were eight, you know. Then I tried one with a girl who came over and was hanging out with us. I did not know that she had seen her best friend shot and killed recently, and she
relived that moment. And that was the last time I ever attempted hypnosis because it is not something to play with. I'll just put it that, like, I didn't know what, you know, what to do, Like you know this, there's this girl and she's crying because she's just now she thanked me. She was like thank you for that, you know. Uh she said she felt like some closure. And it's like, Okay, that's great, but I don't know what I'm doing with this, and it's dangerous to play with people's heads. So that
was the last time I ever attempted hypnosis. It's it's powerful stuff, especially for some people. It's definitely not definitely not a toy.
It's not it's a technique, right, I mean, it's just depending It's really depend upon the hypnotist as well, because some people are going to hypnotic psychotherapy right for their benefit, right to stop smoking or drinking or something. Right. And there's stories also that I pulled up. I remember that some people go to a hypnotherapists they get raped, like some doctors are raping people. There's one guy who got busted.
There is just one story, but there was another one I got to where yeah, bad things happened, and that there was another guy I can't remember his name, but he used in LA and he used hypnotists, hypnotism and bars to get women. Was oh wow, yeah, he knew how to do it.
And there was the speaking of there was a guy that bragged about having hypnotized. Sir Hannes, sirhan Frank Olsen, the guy who was shoved out of a window after being dosed with LSD. He was he was having some you know, after they dosed him. He was he was already having a crisis of conscience over the biological warfare research, and so they sent him to a psychiatrist who hypnotized him. The problem is the psychiatrist was an allergist named Harold
Abramson who worked with m k ultra. He was an allergist. He was he worked at an allergy clinic at Mount Sinai, which was one of the many institutes that was used to run these these you know, human experiments. But yeah, yeah, hypnosis.
He was one of the first victims to nineteen fifty three.
Yeah, yeah, and uh, you know, they they tried to make it look like suicide. In fact, around the same time that m k ault was being developed was when they were trying to find ways to assassinate someone and make it look like they did it themselves. So they were really testing multiple things at once. With Frank Olsen, they were testing assassination methods, they were testing mk ultra, they were testing the LSD element of m k AULTR.
You know, just all this stuff at once. I feel like when the CIA does this stuff, they they really don't waste a bit of you know, uh, they use every bit of bone and flesh. Well, when they when they have an operation, it's usually usually there's multiple operatives at the same time that are being you know worked on. Whenever any one of these there's they're probably working on something else as well.
Right, this, right now is the Report of Psychiatric Examination of Jack Ruby twenty sixth of April nineteen sixty four, so it's about six months after this is by This is a document put together by Jolly West and for some reason, I mean, I don't know how this happened, but he was allowed into and talked to Jack Ruby, and this was what his final designation. Jack Ruby is technically insane at this time. He is not capable of
cooperating intelligently in his own defense. Wow, that's really fortunate when.
You're done with him, of course, absolutely. Yeah. In fact, Ruby was claiming that they were injecting him with things to kill him and then he died of cancer after he was crazy and nobody would believe it.
Right, The same thing happened to Rudolph Hess. He said he was getting treatment the same way. Some port They were putting stuff in his food, which you know he had to eat, and uh yeah, there were real questions about how how insane was but he claimed the same thing. But the yeah, this is super this is super fortunate for the government of the conspiracy. One element of the conspiracy that they don't go into on Jack Kennedy. Is this how did you get rid of Jack Ruby? And
this is it? Yeah, instead of shooting.
Is so fascinating because he shows up, you know, for decades at the most opportunity moment, you know, the satanic panic, the hippies, the cults, all that stuff.
That's what the false memory syndrome was, was like denying pedophile groups, right, wasn't.
That part of the you had literal like pedophile activists. I would call him a Ralph underwager. This guy didn't any interview with Padica, a Dutch journal of pedophilia about how you know, as a theologist, I believe that pedophiles can boldly and courageously affirm their love and it's like, dude, what And this is a guy who was an expert witness on like two hundred and fifty child abuse cases.
And we also he also believed that most that most cases of abuse were not harmful to the child and that most of the ones that were reported were not true. He was also one of the founders of Vocal Victims of Child Abuse Laws, which Vocal was involved in like trying to get rid of mandatory reporting laws in Florida. You know, just like this is this is who they're
working with, just some really really sick folks. James Randy, Uh, the amazing Randy, Who's the guy that you know, Uh worked so hard to debunk Uri Yeller another uh you know for a brief time basically working with the CIA at SRI. But yeah, you know, it's a it's.
It seems like science fiction.
A lot of this stuff. Yes, it sounds it sounds crazy. And you know, I wrote an article about MK ultra back in like two thousand and three or two thousand
and four. I remember it closed off. I was all, you know, hopeful about how you know, if only more awareness was raised about MK ultra, then you know, then what then we'd have a Netflix series called Stranger Things, which is a huge hit, and nothing would change because even more people would be convinced that it was a silly idea that couldn't have been real, you know, like
the movie Conspiracy Theory with Mel Gibson. You know, and it even has the Catcher and the Rye reference, you know, wow, yeah.
You know the controller handbook that people people right, Yeah, yeah, Catcher in the Rye was Chapman. Who else had Catcher in the Rye was somebody else, but that guy.
Was oh the right Sallenger. Yeah.
And and you know, I think that uh.
If you look at the Joker movie, even the Joker movie is that same. It's it's an update on the Catcher in the Right story, you know, the story of a disconcontent of society who's you know, everything's fake, everything's phony, just seeking some kind of connection and something genuine. Uh. You know, I I think I think that kind of
person uh makes a really good useful idiot. Unfortunately, you know, because if you've got somebody who really believes, who's a true believer, you know, people will listen to them, people will follow them. So you know, I I I think they like the idea of that Catcher and the Rye archetype. That's one of the kind of people that they go after.
Interesting. This is probably one of the more famous books about mind control, Walter Bower's book with a four by Richard Condon, who wrote The Man Cheering Candidate, right, m m oh really yeah, yeah, yeah no, he wrote The Manchain Candidate. So but I mean the I mean we can get into that. That whole story is incredible because Richard Condon wrote The Man Cheering Candidate. The movie was made by h I can't remember the director. Do you remember you directed The man Cheering Candidate?
Oh? No, I don't know off the top of my head.
But the director of the Manchurian Candidate. Do you know who was at his house before the shooting of GF of RFK? No, RFK, Yeah, the director of Centurion Candidate. It's the old one, the nineteen sixty two one. Uh huh was John Frankenheimer. And so John Frankenheimer literally had RFK over at his house the night or the night before RFK was killed by a mind control assassin. And the book is about a mind control assassin killing a presidential candidate.
It killed a president.
You can't write that off the charts. It's the true story. Frankenheimer drove RFK to the Ambassador Hotel.
You know, I sometimes wonder the Discordians. That's another case that gets tied into the Kennedy assassination because Carrie Thornley, the founder of this counterculture group, was friends with Oswald.
But like the Discordians, it's Operation Mind. F Ward I'll say, but Operation Mind I really do believe that they used the counterculture to like kind of you know, work on this surreal angle, because some of this stuff is just so flat out ridiculous that that your your brain does not want to accept it as possible because it is it's just too like it. It sounds silly. Oh, there's these Nazis who worked with the CIA on mind control and then they did a bunch of us at that
sounds that sounds absolutely lomony tudes. But you know, I think that's part. I think that's part of it. They ensure that some of this stuff does seem so outlandish that it's easy, you know, it's it's it's easy to discount it, right.
I agree with that. The other one, the other guy was you and Cameron. That's who I was thinking about in camp.
Oh wow, yeah you ever.
I mean, those are the stories of the psychic driving. He was literally trying to erase people's brains.
Mm hmm.
Yeah. Yeah. There were there were people who you know, oh, they got a little mild anxiety or a touch of depression and then they go into the uh uh you know, signing to see a doctor and next thing you know, they're in a corner and a straight jacket, drilling on themselves. And forty years later, uh, you know, their family members can't touch them or they you know, go into uh
shocks and seizures. It's you know it, and bear in mind Cameron was the head of the World Psychiatric Association for a time, was the head of the American Psychiatric Association, was the head of the Canadian Psychiatric Association. The Hoffman Report, there's a you know, I recommend people look into the Hoffman Report. It's it goes into some of what the APA did to skirt ethics, uh, you know with you know,
UH enhanced interrogation read torture, guntanam obey. Because a lot of the stuff that was involved in MK ultra, this stuff was used as what we what we now call enhanced interrogation i e. Torture. A lot of that stuff grew out of m k ultreis.
Wow, that's crazy. I mean, it's just a huge, massive problem. I thought I was showing on the screen. I thought I was showing this book. I wasn't. But this is probably one of the more important books about mind control. Or maybe it's Marxist, maybe it's the Search for the manstream candidate. This is another good one.
And Marx and Marquetti too, the uh the Cult of Intelligence.
Yeah, I've heard of Marquetti's book. Did he go into mind control in that book?
Uh?
Yeah, yeah, this one just came out this year. I tried to get this guy to come on my show.
But oh yeah, the Gottlieb book.
Yeah.
Gottlieb is another character. He was a club footed folk dan sir who was basically addicted to goat smelt. I mean it sounds like it sounds like a schizophrenic James Bond, Like these are Bond villains. I'm an evil science I'm an evil, mad scientist who conducts you know, uh. West West dosed himself up on LSD at the same time as giving an elephant so much LSD exploded, like what normal people do.
Uh.
A weird thing about West by the way, you know, if you've seen if you've ever seen him speak, I saw, I saw. I was watching a video recently or rewatching where he's talking about scientology. He makes a joke about how all the scientologists say I'm with the C I A, but they also say I'm with the K G B. I guess that makes me a double agent. And I find that really cute because he doesn't say he's not c I A during that, which you know, like it's
it's it's undeniable that he worked with the CIA. That's that's declassified knowledge. Okay, but yeah, you know, uh West and Gottlieb, these guys are they're large, that they're they're
cartoonishly evil. But at the same time, like I I remember seeing on on one of the cover sheets it's the facts cover sheet, and uh, he's got pinned in there something about can you make make me up a few extra of these with no addresses attached, and his secretary just writes in all caps, no exclamation part exclamation points, it's cute, right, it's it's humanizing jolly.
You know.
One of the letters, somebody says, dear Jolly, he was called jolly. He was kind of a jolly guy. He was you know, uh, he was a humorous guy.
Uh.
It blows my mind that, like you've got these people doing these awful things, and then they go home to the and and you know, uh, they kiss their wife and.
They're like not the Nazi concentration camp doctors like mangling. They go back on another day at work, I'm gonna go poison some people.
And then and then you go to church on Sunday and then you coach the little league softball game. It's just it's mind blowing.
It really is. Mind control is mind blowing. These guys are very normalized, and I think it's interesting if you take the real broad angle lens, that these psychiatrists were treating people and helping them with their problems at the same time they were fronts for c I A mind control experiments. So like there may be just one guy, you know, today I'm helping somebody who has postpartum depression, or somebody is a lot losing a loved one, and then you get treated with mind control, you know, like
that's what happened with you and Cameron. But how many other stories are there for these guys like cross ethical lines and manipulate them. Oh yeah, because puppeteering tons of people. It was like a puppeteering show.
Yeah, yeah, you know. I found something kind of interesting as doctor Heath was approached. This is one of the first guys he pioneered using him playing electrodes in the brain. And this is a guy doctor Heath at TULE and the CIA comes to him after a symposium in New
Orleans in November of nineteen sixty two New Orleans. So you know, you've got at the same time as Lee Harvey Oswald is picking up his pro Cuba pamphlets from the office of ex FBI and CIA anti Cuba people at the same time and places that's going on, You've got doctor Heath. And what's ironic is this guy's a pretty controversial figure because he also pioneered electro shock used, as you know, on homosexuals for you know, like reprogramming
homosexuals into being straight or trying to uh. And even this guy who was willing to shock gay people straight, he he just felt it was absolutely the quote is abhorrent, abhorrent. I took the stand if I were going to be a spy, I'd be a spy. I wanted to be a doctor in practice medicine. He felt it was, you know, a violation of Hippocratic ohs, which we don't even need to bring Hippocrates into this. This is you know, this is basic ethical considerations. You just don't ruin people's lives
and minds. You know, that's that's basic stuff, which once again, I you know, it's it's so weird to me that the same guy West the same guy who is claiming that he's against cults because of the things that they do to people. And I'm like this for decades, Philip.
That's the whole thing that's so remarkable is that he's against the things, but he's writing papers about the use them. Yes, look at there's another one. It's hallucinations, behavior, experience, and theory. He is discussing selective drug prohibition, but he's also saying these things can be used as manipulation ye selected components of the population since as members of certain minority groups or organizations can be targeted. Control can be through prohibition
or supply. Total or even partial prohibition of drugs gives the government considerable leverage of other types of control.
Right, that's that. I'm glad you brought that up, because that's another point of the cultural control factor. You know, John Potash his book Drugs His Weapon Against as Weapons Against His I highly recommend that because once again, the sale and use of drugs, the deployment of certain drugs, that's a big part of the cultural and societal control element of mind control. You know, it's it's once again,
it's not all about hypnosis and LSD. Sometimes it's as simple as you get people in a desperate, addicted space space or in a certain mindset, and they are more easily controlled.
One of the examples is this whole situation with COVID is a perfect example of living through that. They were using the most vicious for mind control techniques, shaping, controlling information, I mean no violence, but just incorpordible control, looting, I mean massive wealth transference. It benefited that all these small businesses went down, mind can.
That's another thing that it's it's it's a huge like trillions disappeared from the uh working in middle class is the same time as the trillion dollar businesses had their best two years. Now. It's so I don't think that's a that's a coincidence. And yes, absolutely, the whole COVID thing, it's it's it's a marvelous Uh. You know it. It's a masterclass in in subtle conditioning and control. And you know, like Edward Burnetz and Ivy Lee, you know, I vy Lee is william S Burrow's uncle.
Uh.
You know, the PR and marketing are a form of mind control. You know why why do you think? What do you think an American PR firm got a Kuwaiti princess to stand in front of Congress and seeing n making up an absolutely invented story about how she was a nurse and the Iraqis were pulling babies from incubators, and then George Bush repeated the false story that was literally Knowlton Hill pr Firm. They you know, So that's the manufacture of consent, so to speak, for the the Gulf War.
Uh, let's listen to Jolly West for a few minutes. Oh yeah, he's a he's listed here as a human rights activist.
Oh this is Mark Bonker's video.
Yeah, look at this clapping too. This guy is about as sinister as it gets.
Thank you, Hanna, I've heard that extraordinary introduction. I think we do have a lot in common. I might even have been followed by lots of cars, vans and motorcycles. But in Los Angeles, who would notice? In Twelfth Night there's a actor who says, sweet are the uses of adversity, which, like the toad, ugly and venomous bear's he had a precious jewel in its head. As you know, I had a little bit of adversity here during the noon hour. But something very good came out of it I missed my lunch.
He's good, he knows kind of one of the elements of a good speeches always start off with.
A oh yeah. And he is a funny, charming guy. That's what its scary.
Yeah, he looks like kind of like your uncle who just starts drinking.
Like he's he's a funny, jolly guy.
Jolly.
I realize I was a bit of a fanatic, But what's a fanatic. It's just somebody who can't change his mind and don't change the subject.
Is it just me?
Or does his pattern not remind you of l Ron Hubbard too? Yeah, it's that same kind of pattern. It's that same right, wit. It's it's really it's truly ironic, considering he was one of the early anti scientology advocates.
Yeah, and he's probably because he was probably giving him all their information.
Oh yeah, oh yeah at the local police department, each of us having conducted the citizens arrest upon the other.
What I said to him was, son, when you decide to leave.
This outfit, come and see me. And I never dreamed at the time that I would be following the evolution of this group for the next forty years.
But I've learned a lot, and I'd like to be able.
To share it all with you, but I can't compress forty years of information gathering into this short hour. What I'll try to do, then, is to concentrate on what I have whimsically called the scientology Wars and those of you who are interested in the nuts and bolts of what goes on. Yeah.
Now, I don't know what to talk about on this one. I don't have probably should have watched it, but it seems like there's two parts of this thing of him channel. Yeah.
At some point in one of these is where he makes the joke about how the scientologists say that I'm CIA, but they also say I'm KGB. I guess that makes me a double agent and in it and as the crowd goes wild.
The totality of what he was up to, right, Yeah.
He What I love though, is that he doesn't deny it doesn't have to. He just makes it sound ridiculous. That's mind control. The way he works a crowd is subtle mind control.
You know.
Uh, It's like I do, Like, I can't help it. I find these guys like at first, you know, on the one hand, they are cartoonishly evil. But it's more than that. I like, you know, I think the fact that, like at one point when I when I started to think about, like I said, the fact that these people had families, these people went to church, these people, you know, volunteered in their communities. It's that makes it so much
scarier that they're not just monsters. You know, there's something so much scarier about the fact that they seemed like normal people and they weren't just just evil monsters. They were also evil monsters, right.
Yeah, I mean it's it's pretty incredible how they got away with all that, all through secrets. I mean, it's classic freaking CIA stuff. You corrupt them from the inside. There's some law and mind control ritual abuse pages you've come across this website. This is actually very very good well research website. Right now, it's a ritual abuse US. It actually proves like that there is ritual beasts.
I don't think it's that common, but oh yeah, yeah, I believe that it's incredibly rare. But just look at Okay, take any serial killer's life story, you know what I'm saying, Like, whether it's Ed Gan or Henry lu Lucas or or whoever, that's basically textbook ritual abuse in a lot of those cases, you know, And there's an element of generational ritual abuse and torture in those cases. So it doesn't matter. It
doesn't matter if it's just point one percent. I mean, like it didn't matter for COVID, Why should it matter for ritual abuse? You know?
Oh? Yeah, I mean yeah, that's crazy. I mean he tried to. He tried to get a Nike missile base to become a like a place for him to do his center for the Prevention of violence. Do you ever hear that story?
Oh?
No, no, Yeah, so he tried to. I'll read this letter. He sent it to a military guy's double bund. Quote. I am in possession of confidential information that the Army is prepared to turn over Nike missile bases to state in local agencies for non military purposes. They may look with special favor on health related applications. Such a Nike missile base is located in the Santa Monica Mountains, within a half hour's drive of the Neuropsychiatric Institute. It is
accessible but relatively remote. The site is securely fenced and includes various buildings and improvements making it suitable for prompt occupancy. If this site were made available to the Neuropsychiatric Institute as a research facility, perhaps initially as an adjunct adjunct to the new Center for the Prevention of Violence, we
could put it to very good use. Comparative studies could be carried out there in an isolated but convenient location of experimental or model programs for the alteration of undesirable behavior.
Oh my gosh, I don't want to be put away in the bunker.
Yeah, it's a clockwerk orange man. Yeah, that's what they're going to do there. They called it the Ludovic mac that I think in clockwork corners, right, yeah.
Yeah.
Oh so the guy, Sarah Connor says, the guy that killed Rebecca Schaeffer had capturing the ride too.
Wow, that's crazy.
Yeah. I also have another one. This was another Jolly West story that I found, which is from Hearst Patty Hurst. Quote. When the first of the psychiatrists came to see me on September thirty thirtieth, just eleven days after my arrest, I simply crumbled under his scrutiny. I cried, murmuring and mumbling out replies that were not answers to his questions.
He thought I was refusing to cooperate with him. This was doctor Lewis Jolian West, chairman of the Department of Psychiatry at UCLA, an internationally recognized expert in his field. I thought he had a creepy, hypnotic voice, a tall, heavyset man who appeared to be kindly. I suspected Jolly of being too smooth, too soothing to be trusted.
Yeah, yeah, that's it. Like I kept thinking about, like every time I see him in his little jolly expression. I imagine being you know, underground on on a sheet of acid with a.
Light in your face, but like in a dark room with a light in your face or something.
Yeah.
Yeah, Like I would rather somebody just do conventional torture, I think, than be, you know, in a room with doctor Jolly laughing. You know.
I'd just like to start. I would just like to start by asking you a few questions.
No, just kill me, just just torture me or kill me or something.
I'm not here as an adversary, I'm here as a friend.
Yeah. Yeah.
Really great book about Patty Hurst is Revolutions End by Brad Shriver. I cannot recommend that book enough. It's awesome. It's a great piece of investigative reporting. But she knew, like, I mean, the Simbuinese Liberation Army was probably part of Operation Chaos, if I probably was just developed out of the you know, military intelligence or something like that. And the guy Quinnsay was was developed. He was just you know, a guy who was created and they gave him kind
of like the software for the Symbionese. Symbionese Liberation Army came out and he just fronted it. And one of the interesting things about Kin Sayer I think that was his name, was that no black, no African Americans followed his group. It was all unsuspecting kind of white left wingers. Yeah, because the African Americans sniffed him out. They thought that something was right, right.
Yeah.
Yeah, at least that's what Brad says, and it's in the book. It's a really good book. And you can kind of see that same stuff with Operation Chaos and all these other things that weird things were going on in California in the sixties and seventies.
Oh yeah, well, chaos and co intel, pro infiltration and indolence ops were once again a big part of the more subtle form of mind control. You don't have to just like turn someone into a zombie, uh to to mind control them, like I think, I think probably the most effective mind control are his subtle influence. It's when you think you came up with the idea yourself. You know, it's it's shaping all all the way, all the information that's coming in in order to have a specific outcome.
That's you know, that's one of the means of cultural control that that I believe that the so called mind control research was was interested in.
I agree, I agree. I think that they puppeteered people. See how effective it was. Imagine some of these guys watching the news stories. You know, if you remember there was only ABC, CBS and NBC back in the day. Imagine just having that power of the only three choices to have, and they're just puppeteering. How does how does the public and I think they're still doing it to this day with control groups and test those are all mind control. How does this phrase sound? Does surge sound
better than much more warn? You know, doubling down? And then they work it on everybody.
So what scares me is here's another aspect of m k Ultra that I don't think gets enough play. The connection is cybernetics, uh. You know, the connection to counterculture and cults very interesting, but so is the connection to DARPA uh and and the the arpaet and you know, uh Yosha Levine's book uh uh Surveillance Valley is really excellent in regards to like the connection between military intelligence
and UH and the formulation of the Internet. The Internet was designed as a counterinsurgency tool, and that's how it's still being used. Uh uh Surveillance Valley by Yosha Levine. Yeah, yeah, it's the Internet started out as as a counterinsurgency tool, and that's still how it's being used. You know, we the CIA uh and and this huge like big data firm have some of the largest behavioral personality profiles in
existence that have been gathered from the Internet. And you know, the where the cybernetics element gets really scary to me is when you start thinking about quantum computing and algorithms and what they can do with that wide of a data set, and the more they learn about what you know, well, a nudge this way does this, a nudge that way does that, And you know, Uh, these these algorithms are going to build on themselves. Uh you know, it's it's
it's an issue of computing power for now. But you know, I don't know if I buy the whole like you know, Nick Bostrom and the simulation and the matrix theory. But but honestly, when it gets down to the point where we're being micro managed to the level of you know, what ads you see and what toast you see, do the algorithm and all of this is being shaped specifically for you because you know the big Panopticon, the eye in the sky. You know, it's that's that's a really scary thought to me.
You know, I being on Facebook. Look at Facebook or Twitter?
You do you?
They know you?
I don't know Cambridge whatever or whatever.
Yeah, yeah, I mean, yeah, there's all kinds of problems there. There's tons of problems there. Those I mean, they know so much about about these people that yeah, I mean is Facebook a CIA operation? Is it part of them culture? Right?
Yeah? Well, I mean like the timing on Lifelog was pretty uh coincidental for sure, because you know, the NSA was going to do the lifelog program and they shut it down at the same time as Facebook. Uh, the Facebook becomes Facebook and allows non college students to join up. You know. Yeah, it's uh, it's it's definitely more than
a little coincidental in my opinion. Uh. But like the way I look at it is if you think about, like the history of espionage for years and years and years, and the twentieth century is all about spies not having to be in the same room with you more and more so, right, and now it's finally gotten to the point where spies don't even have to go outside because everybody just drops their info in this little box, this little box that they put in their pocket, this little
box that records their video and audio at any moment, you know. Uh uh Google, Google's Uh, it was don't be evil was their whole guiding principle, right, and then they become alphabet in corporate. They become Alphabet corporation. And of course when I think alphabet, I think, you know, the classic term the alphabet agencies NSA, CIA, D O, D,
DCI whatever, whatever whatever it's. I mean, like, I almost feel like that was just them kind of having a laugh at our expense, you know, because they dropped don't be evil at the same time they became alphabet the alphabet agencies, which you know, here's the thing. If the Internet had stayed under the auspices of the government, a lot of the spine they did they do would be illegal. But it's not under the government anymore. Now it's a
public you know, it's it's owned by corporations. Amazon and Microsoft own all the infrastructure of the Internet, and they're working closely with the CIA and the NSA. So yeah, all these social media companies, all the big tech firms are working very closely with these people. And and like I said that, the idea of public relations and marketing, that's a bigger part of this whole story than I think a lot of people are aware.
Right, I mean, I totally agree with you. I don't think they know. The average person doesn't understand the enormity of the kind of cultural creation.
Yeah, yeah, people don't get why why is it that people spend billions of dollars on ads each year? Huh? Why? Indeed, probably because it's a waste of money, and trillionaires love wasting money. Now, I don't think that's it.
Right, That's a good point, really good point.
I mean, why you know some of them the best paid psychiatrists and psychologists in the world. They don't work healing brains, they don't work healing minds, they don't work healing herds. No, they work in marketing or in the private sect doing some kind of weaponized research of some sorts. Did you see the you know, talk about DARPA. You know, a lot of the stuff that was being worked on like fifty years ago, sixty years ago is really coming
to fruition in the consumer world. Did you see the depression brain implant that they did a study or you know, they did an experiment that This is what really gets me, Like every major newspaper was talking about it for a couple of days, despite the fact that it was an N equals one study, meaning this was one person. One person had this implant and it worked for them, which like that is big news. Like, but like, once again, how applicable is this across the board if you're only
doing this for one person? And also, you know, I'm sorry, but I do not trust electrodes in my brain. I don't want uh, you know, uh a control switch in my head. Please. This has got you know. Doctor Jose Delgatto was was one of the guys who was wanted to use you know, electromagnetic frequencies and electrode stimulation. Uh.
The term psycho civilized. That's another one of those creepy euphemisms that you'll see over and over again in this kind of you know, in the uh declassified academic literate and academic literature, but towards the psycho civilized society. It was the name of Jose Delgado's book. But yeah, I mean, like I, I don't trust this research. And you know what's said is there's a potential for good things to
come from this. I was on the program to Chill podcast and the host is telling me about, uh, the Wendell Johnson and the Monster experiments where they you know, they they've used these war orphans uh, and they had you know, one group that uh, you know they gave commendation to and and worked with and a pause way and another they just like you know, did whatever they could to make them unable to you know, they gave people stutters and slurs and all kinds of things, and
some of these were permanent.
Now, the sad and.
Scary thing is that the Wendell Johnson lab, you know, at the I think it's University of Iowa. You know, they still have the lab named after him at that at that university. And what's said is like, some of that, some of those awful experiments, we learned some valuable things, and we're able to help people. But at what cost, you know, Like I just don't I just don't believe that. It's like, well, we can sacrifice one person for the
common good, surely. No, I don't think we should sacrifice people's humanity and mental health and wellness just so that a few other hypothetical people in the future have a better life. No, there's it has got to be a better way.
I agree with that. Another fact about West is he received an immense amount of funds he in between seventy four and eighty nine, he received five million dollars from the federal government in grants channel through the National Institute of Mental Health, a major funding conduit for CIA, and then more money poured into the UCLA Neuropsychiatric Institute, which was fourteen million dollars in one year before stepped on. So decer, where's that money going? What do you need
all that money for? You know, it's off the charts.
The client centered therapy guy Carl Rodgers, you know, the it was also called third wave psychology. Carl Rodgers received like initially received thirty thousand dollars from the CIA. One of the folks that worked with him was was say, oh, yeah, no, I didn't realize we were working with the CIA. Rogers, however, admitted that he did. Uh. And I think the money Rogers was getting was through Orn at Pennsylvania Martin Orn once again also tied to the Human Ecology Fund and
in uh uh in CIA. But yeah, you know some of these some of these folks, you know, they'll tell you, no, I didn't work with the CIA. Some of them knew. Some of them I think didn't know, like guys like Tim Leary. Though, you know, it's it's it's so crazy to think that like the one of the central figures in the counterculture creation and psychedelic culture creation isn't admitted witting CIA. Patsy, he admitted that he was used by
the CIA. But I mean think about it. He was on the top ten most he was on the FBI's most wanted list, uh for for drugs, you know, and then he just like escaped from prison. No, no, he didn't. This guy a Harvard a geeky Harvard professor on acid escaped from from prison. No he didn't. I mean, like he did, but only because he had help, you know. So Yeah, I mean, like I can understand why he would want to work with the Feds. It was that
or lifetime in prison. Yeah, I can understand where he was coming from with that, And at least he was eventually kind of came clean about the whole thing. I do wonder, like, you know, in his head, how he justified that trying to be like this figurehead for psychic freedom while at the same time working with the people who were trying to absolutely clamp down on you know, any sort of behavioral self control.
Yeah, I know, you're right. What do you think about like Harry Christians. Do you think they got kind of mind controlled or did they get as some kind of just social persuasion. Do you know anything about the Harry Christians?
You know, I don't know that much about it. You know, the they remind me a lot. If you ever heard of Zendic farms, that's another like kind of similar little it's it's a little commune and they, uh, there's another there's another sort of offshoot of of you know, Eastern mysticism that's kind of similar to that. But yeah, I I would bet that, especially in the sixties and seventies and eighties, a lot of these you know, like Esslyn
and you know E. S. T and the Moonies. Now we know that the Moonies were connected to the CIA, you know, the the c i A, which was under the auspices of the US Central Intelligence Agency. So I mean, you know, we know that the Moonies worked with the c i A.
Uh.
Doctor Ruth Wangern believes that the Children of God worked with the CIA. The the Iranian government thinks that the Bahi are possibly either infiltrated or run by the CIA. Nexium's got a lot of scientology ties, and scientology especially if you look at early scientology, and you know, it was the classic CIA Dirty Tricks Manual played out over and over and over again. So you know, I'm one of those people who a lot of people believe that.
You know, one of the few things that I agree with the Church of Scientology on is I think that l. Ron Hubbard was connected to military intelligence. Yes, And I think that scientology probably started out kind of under control and then went rogue, and that's where you end up by like the late seventies, you've got operations snow white, and you've got like the fb FBI and IRS, and senators and congressmen have know their their offices are being infiltrated.
There their secretary and the guys sweeping up after hours are secretly scientologists. You know. I think by that point in time they had definitely firmly gone row. But yeah, I think they were probably used the whole idea of getting someone in a room and then recording them talk about all the bad things that they did. You know, that's that's great blackmail material. So I can definitely see them being being used. You know, they can also be deployed globally that way.
So they were trying to subvert governments and stuff like that. They very ambitious plans, Phil, I got to wrap it up word ninety minutes. Where can people reach out to you if they want to through your website?
Right?
Oh yeah, yeah, Phil Fairbanks p H I L F A I R B A n K S dot com. So Philfairbanks dot com. And also I'm coughed a guy on Twitter as in Franz cop k A f k A g U y so uh COFFGA Guy on Twitter or Phil Fairbanks dot com. You can also reach out to me uh COFKA guy at gmail dot com or head to the contact section on my website.
Uh.
Well, you've been working on some other stuff too, You've been doing interviews and oh yeah, yeah articles. Yeah.
Well, you know you mentioned the Pedrogate Primer, which is the first book. I've got another one that's still still in need of the last forty pages of editing. I know I've been saying that for a year, uh now, but uh so I've got one book in the works and one book waiting to be edited. And meanwhile, like I said, I try to occasionally at least like uh uh one or two times a month, sometimes more. I try and post up at the website there. So if you want to keep keeping contact with like the interviews
and things that I do. Uh, that's that's a good place to uh to start there right on.
And you know a lot about kult So thanks a lot for sharing. So again. Author's name is Phil Fairbanks. Yeah, thanks so much, Phil, Take care, appreciate it, appreciate your time. Stay there.