Okay, We're love. This is William Ramsey. Welcome to William Ramsey Investigates on Tonight Show. A very special guest. I've been reading through his book that he published this year in twenty twenty one. The book that he wrote is titled Talking with Psychopaths and Savages, spree Killers and mass Murders. And his name is Christopher Barry D and he's written thirty six books. So I'm not going to list all those books here, but I'm going to go through some
of his background. He has a very interesting background, particularly he's descended from doctor John D. Court, astrologer to Queen Elizabeth I and is the founder and former director of the Criminology Research Institute or CRI, and former publisher and editor in chief of The Criminologist, a highly respected journal on matters concerning all aspects of criminology, from law enforcement
to forensic psychology. Christopher is interviewed and interrogated over thirty of the world's most notorious killers, serial mass and one off, including Peter Suftcliff who was the Yorkshire ripper, Ted Bundy Warnos from the movie Monster, Dennis Nielsen who was a
UK serial killer, and Joanna Dennehe. He was the co producer and interviewer for the acclaimed twelve part TV documentary series The Serial Killers, and has appeared on television as a consultant on serial homicide and in the series Born to Kill on the cases of Fred and Rose West. I've done an interview about Fred and Rose West, the Moore's Murderers, and doctor Harold Shipman of a notorious serial kid. He has also assisted in criminal investigations as far field
as Russia and the United States. Notable book successes include Monster, which is the basis of the movie at the same title about Aileen Moarnos, Dad Helped Me Please, about the tragic Derek Bentley, hanged for a murder he did not commit and was subjectly the subject of a film Let Him Have It, and Talking with serial Killers, Christopher's international bestseller, now with its sequel Talking with serial Killers, World's Most Evil required reading at the FBI Behavioral Analysis Unit Academy
to Co Virginia. His Talking with Psychopaths and Savages, A Journey into the Evil Mind was the UK's best selling true crime title of twenty seventeen. Its successor volume, Talking with Psychopaths and Savages Beyond Evil was published in autumn of twenty nineteen, and twenty twenty a new edition of his Talking to serial Killers dead Men Talking appeared. The same year saw the publication of his latest book, Talking with Serial Killers Stalkers. But again the title of the
book we're going to kind of cover. He's going to talk about his background as well again is talking with Psychopaths and Savages, free killers and mass murders.
Christopher Barry d Are you there? Well? I am here?
Awesome, Well, thanks for agreeing to the interview for people. I mean, you have a very lengthy background, thirty six books for people may not have heard your name. Can you just talk about the arc of your kind of criminal investigation and true crime investigation and what led you to write this book Talking with Psychopaths and Savages.
In a nutshell, I was a former Royal Marine, Greenberry Commando, Special Forces. I've done some counter terrorism work and Terry Gay work. When I left the Marines, I sort of drifted in out of different jobs like we all do when we come out of the armed forces. And then one day I was in a junk shock, a second hand shop in Southampton, and I noticed a pile of Old Times newspaper cuttings and I pulled them down just
for the sheer curiosity of it. And I saw the case of Brown and Kennedy were hanged for the murder a police constable in Essex in nineteen twenty seven mis see guttery. I certainly noticed my grandfather's name there. He was one of the solicitors who defended Kennedy. They were both hanged, so my solicitored, my grandfather didn't do a particularly good job. They hung him. And I thought i'd
write a book, and I did. I managed to get hold of the extended closure documents by Fluke from the Lord Chancellor's department, and I wrote this book and I sent it off to W. H. Allen Publishers, and I didn't get a reply. And I was in another bookshop, funny enough, in Southampton and the guy said. I was talking to the guy and he said, I said to him about this book, and he said, well, look, I used to work for Whallon as a rep. He said, let me send it in. So he sent the manuscript in.
And Robin O'Dell, who's probably one of the world's, if not the UK's, finest crime historians and authors, as well. He was a member of that. He was the sort of boss of the Jack the Rippa Society at the time. And he read it and he wrote a letter back to me and he said it was the worst manuscript he'd ever seen in his entire life. It was. It was terrible, but he said the research was impeccable. Uh. And he said, would you would you? Would you like it if we wrote the book together? And I give
you lead title? And I was amazed. And that was my first book, The Long Drop. And then that was followed by another section five to one case that you mentioned, which was letting that dad help me, please let him have it. And that's the book that got Derek Bentley a posthumous pardon, made the film more or less of the same known, starring Christopher Ecleston. It got Derek Bentley a posthumous pardon, and it became the reader's digest hardback
nonfiction lead title two years later. And I saw, I saw I'd never write another book because of the pain and suffering I went through. But now I'm I'm up there, you know, writing all the time.
All right, So you're at thirty six books. Okay, for people who don't know about the Derek Bentley kids. Do you mind talking a little bit more about it. I'm not familiar with that clik.
Yeah, there were two lads. There was Christopher Craig Hutine, he was about fifteen and sixty fifteen, and there was Derek Bentley who was a bit older, who was had a mental age of about a ten year old. And they went to a burglar warehouse in Croydon, the Barlow and Parker warehouse, and they climbed up on the roof and somebody spotted them.
It was at night.
The police were called and the police broke in and climbed up the stairs and the first officer who opened the door on the roof, Pc Miles, was shot straight between the eyes, and that Christopher Craig fired the revolver and the police grabbed Bentley because he was simple minded, he didn't even know this guy had a gun, his companies had a gun, and because he was terrified, Derek Bentley shouted out let him have it, Chris, which it
meant let him have the gun. I think that's when the gun went off then, and they In other words, the police said that Bentley was inciting Craig to shoot the policeman, which was wrong. Then the police fabricated a lot of evidence and statements and they hung Bentley and Christopher Craig is now a free man.
That's unfortunate.
So then you got the posthumous acquittal of him, and so you started you have this long career. What led you to kind of reach out and start talking with these serial killers like Robin ghekt Ian Brady Eileen Warnos.
Well, that's another look interesting story because really, back in the old days, there were these magazines called the True Crime Magazines. I think you were about two pound fifty or something, and I said, oh, there's one on Harvey the Hammer, HARMI Caringdon, one on Amateur vill Horror and all this sort of stuff, and I sort of started
collecting them. I didn't realize at the time there'd be about two hundred and fifty episode, two hundred and fifty books in the collection, and of course they're collector's pieces now,
and I started to collect them. So and back then, of course, we didn't have the Internet, we didn't have emails and things like that, and what I did was I wrote to people like Arthur Shawcross, and I wrote to Harvey the Hammer Carrignan, and I wrote to lots of others and I started getting replies and I thought, oh, this is interesting. I might never thought of writing a book about it.
And then.
The Craig previously mentioned the Derek Bentley case and that was in Croydon and a local TV producer down there called Fraser Ashford ran a company called Crystal Vision, and he interviewed me on TV on the news about the Derek Bentley case because it was local, and I happened to mention to him, I've got all these letters and serial killers and he said to me, look, why don't we go out there and make a series, And yeah, fine, And I didn't hear from him for two years, and
then all of a sudden, my father contact him. He said, Fraser Ashford's trying to get hold of you. And I said, what does he want then, and he said, well, he wants to talk to you. And Fraser said, we've got the budget, let's go and do it. So we were the first TV anywhere in the world to actually go into prisons and interview these killers live and let them say what they wanted to say on camera. It had never been done before. It's done all the time now,
but back then we broke the mold. And then as a result of that, I wrote a book called Talking with Serial Killers. That was in two thousand and three. It was published, and I approached Virgin, who were my publishers at the time, and they turned it down and they said it would probably scare our gray rints readers,
our old ladies. And I said, okay, we're fine. They'd published some other books of mine, and then half an hour later I spoke Sir John Blake and John said I'll have it so and nobody had ever written a book with the killer's own words in it. And then Virgin called me back and said, actually, we've had second thoughts, Christoph. We wanted to buy that book. I mean, it's unique. And I turned around and said, sorry, it's sold to
John Blake. John Blake published that. I've been with him now he's one of my publishers, but I've been with him for twenty years. And basically that's how the brand, which is now a brand with wh Smith, traveled as well. We developed this sequel. We've got all these Talking with series, but you've got Talking with Female serial Killers blah blah blah. Up until talking with savages that you're talking about tonight.
Right, And I mean so, I mean there are whole shows right now, like Mindhunter is based upon probably what you started twenty years ago. That's all over Netflix. But from your experiences with such such a variety of different homicidal people, what's your kind of takeaway? What have you learned from putting all of those conversations together.
Well, yeah, you are on a very good point here, because and very timely point. You're still learning. You never stop learning. I mean you developed these ideas. I'm actually working on a book at the moment for Blake Bonnier,
which is called Letters from Serial Killers. Now, over those years, I managed to collect hundreds of letters from these killers, different ones, some are short, some of now executed, and I had them all boxed up, and then I was sort of I normally come up with my ideas when I've had a few beers, and I suddenly thought, well, wonder if I could put these letters into a book. And again, my publishers left at it because obviously they want more books. And then what you're hinting on here
is about learning what you learned from these people? Well, these letters from serial Killers let's say, for instance, the Happy Face Killer just Keith Yeah, up in Oregon. And and it's what it's not what you read or what they say on the page. Quite often it's what's hidden between the lines, or what they don't say, or what they forget to say. And once you start looking at these letters in a complete you see you see the PSCH psychopathology of the inmate or the person in a
completely different way. So I'm I'm reading these letters. For instance, let's go to say J. R. Robinson, John Robinson, the Bodies in the Barrels guy on death row in Kansas. Now, I wrote a chapter about him, and he was telling me consistently, this con man, this evil man, was telling me that he was innocent. Although he played guilty, he was innocent, and he wanted to do a deal, and he wanted he said, he knows the queen, and he's you know, and he's he's got you know. And he
started itemizing all the things he needed to cooperate. He needed another team of lawyers. And he was quite a business like, but obviously charlattan And he was denying that he'd ever been into sado mascouism, and he was into whipping girls and stuff like that, but a honeytrap for him. A friend of mine, a colleague for she's now former FBI agent special agent. She was writing to him about
bondage and stuff like that. So in this book I'm doing now, I'm showing the reader one side of this man who's blatantly lying, and I've got the letters that he was sending to this FBI agent.
So yeah, I mean, but and you mentioned that in this book how often guys are communicating with fans or possible paramours and things like that. So some of these serial killers kind of like, do you get the impression that they like the attention?
Yeah, I mean they are attention seekers. I mean that's one of the easiest ways for any of your viewers who want to write to these killers. And you know, there are a lot of people that want to and you know, great if they want to, long you don't fall in love with them. But the one thing to do when you're trying to get one of these killers is to think like a fisherman. I think I need to catch this bass or something or this salmon. What bait can I use that I'm going to do to
hook it? Hook him? So you need to go beforehand. This is where I was lucky with these magazines I had. I did a lot of research on their histories, their narratives, and I've worked out what they liked and what they didn't like. And so when you present your bait, John Robinson was very cautious. He swam around it a few times. He sniffed a cunning But with Melanie Maguire, the ice queen out of New Jersey at the Garden State, that's
another interesting one. I'll quickly pop in. She killed her husband, chopped him up and put his body in suitcases and for him in the Chesapeake Bay. She's quite glamorous in her day. She was a nurse and he was quite a wealthy guy. And she went to trial and she was found guilty. And she's a femme fatal back then, I mean, she was pretty pretty petite. Everybody thought she was augeous, etc. And I knew that the world's media
were all over her. And she's in this prison in New Jersey, and I sat down, I thought about it. But she was quite upscaled, as they call it in America, quite classy, you know. I realized that she liked French
food and all this sort of stuff. So I typed a letter on cream conqueror a paper, and I wrote her name dear Melanie at the top and side at Christopher, and I put my my family d wax cresp batstamp on the bottom, and I wrote an envelope in the same conquer expensive conqueror, and I sprayed it with egoist Chanel.
And that and that that's what was the hook for her.
Oh, she gets this letter. She's getting dozens of letters in this stinking cell. She's lost all all the glamour of life and all the noise in the racket she's living in. And she finds one letter from England with an air mail stamp on it, and then she touches it, opens it and she gets a whiff of ego as Chanel. Now that's a sensory trick, you know.
You don't.
I can't do that to guys because they think.
I was a bit weird.
But with her, she bit and she wrote straight back and she said, Christopher, you must be psychic. That's my favorite. That's ego is Chanel. I didn't. And then we had long correspondence, beautiful handwriting everything else, and and then of course ultimately you fall out with these people, you suck them dry, and then you get rid of them.
Uh.
And that's so it's it's this approach that people have to look at and you have to be careful. And you mentioned mind Hunter. The guys going in they do their homework beforehand. You know, they don't just walk in and say I want to interview you. They go right back.
Right, so then they know who they're talking to. I mean, do you find that all of those people you've communicated are say that they're innocent?
Isn't it strange most of them are. I've I've never met a guilty man in prison, and I'm the only, must be the only writer in the world that's trying to get into prison to interview people that are trying to get out, right, I.
Mean, they all say they're innocent. In almost every like Supermax or whatever. They all nobody says, yeah, you're justly as my understanding.
Yeah, you're right.
I mean Dougie Clark, the Sunset Slayer, I mean, you know, if you ever want, if you ever got the sort of idealistic, sort of persona of a serial go and meet Doggie Clark at San Quentin. I mean, he's absolutely crazy. His teeth are falling out, he's looking rough. I went down with a film crew. We filmed him one of those TV programs. He was effing and it took me about ten minutes to shut him up. He was swearing the filth coming out of his mouth. Yeah, he's got
a great hit, you know. I actually believe that he could be innocent. Funny enough, I've got enough documents to say that. I think this guy's it was a mud getting involved with this woman. But it wasn't just it wasn't Clark. It was a guy called Jack Murray that was with this girl woman that was doing the killings. But he's got a great sense of humor. So in that respect, I quite like Doggie because he says it
as it is. He doesn't he doesn't try and smooth and bullshit you like Kenneth Byank and all these other He didn't try and sort of on you. He says that as it is.
Kenneth Bianke was kind of notorious with that, right The Hillside Stranger was notorious for trying to manipulate people Faye and say or schizophrenia like. He was kind of a more cunning, clever, serial killer. Would you agree with that?
Well, there's clever and there is clever, isn't that? I meant it was Oscar wild or somebody said, you know, you know he's in this prison, he said, but he felt his intelligence was slightly above all of the rest of the other inmates. But on the other hand, he was stupid because he got caught. Right, the Yankee people call his people intelligent. Robinson even he was a commn He he convinced that the then physician for the President of the United States to give him a job. I mean,
he hadn't got a clue about medicine. But you know, the con men, they're sort of homicidal doll boys. But we might perceive them to be intelligent. But look, but they eventually undo themselves. They can't be that bright. And if they they were intelligent, why would they want to spend their whole god given life locked up behind bars in the stink in prison. That's not intelligence, is it.
No, they would they would be much more careful to not be caught, right. I would think they probably had the false impression that they would never be caught, and then they got caught.
That's because they got this extreme narcissistic personality, and that runs right through all of the serial killers, with a few exceptions. I don't think Alien Wernos had it. But you look at Bundy for instance. Look out what a narcissist he was. Most of them are narcissists that control freaks, and this is what this is what causes their undoing. They think like bt K and people like that. They think they're better, they can out with the law, but they can't.
Right, No, it's really true. You really think they can get away with it. Yeah, No, it's incredible. I mean you're what your book on Aileen Warno's who you just mentioned was made into that movie Monster. I believe the lad actress got an oscar for that. What are your impressions of her? And she was kind of unique in that she was a female serial killer. What was your impressions of her?
Well?
When I wrote the book, the first book Talking to serial Killers, my publisher said, can't we find a woman to put in there? And I'd only very briefly met Lee. I mean it was only just a five minute thing. It wasn't a long thing. And I said yeah, And I started to research a history and as I started to read the history. I started drinking whiskey, believe it or not, and I started One night I broke down in tears reading about history. And this poor girl went
through hell. You know, a grand a step father. Her father was hung himself. He was a sex in prison, he was a sex offender. Her stepfather was a miserable bustard who whipped her with the belt, stripped and whitcher. I mean, this girl went through hell and she went on what Americans called the lamb. She was a bright little cookie and she ended up in Florida where she met Tia Moore and they fell in love. And Lee
was an interstate hooker. The remarkable thing was at her trial, a lot of her customers, clients, wanted to come forward and give evidence to say, look, she was good, she was a good girl. You paid the money and she did the tricks, and then everybody was happy. But she killed seven men. And those seven men were like, one was a pastor and only one was an ex clot,
sort of like moral bigots. One was getting engaged, one was a woman beat her anyway, and they started beating her about and smacking her around the face, and so she pulled out this six shot revolver and killed him. Now, if that had happened in England with Peter Sutcliffe and one of the girls has had a and shot him, we wouldn't be all those deaths now. And I when I went down to Florida and I interviewed the cops, the cops, she never once grasped up Teria More. Terria
Moore put her in the frame. Teria Moore was one of those homicides. She was an accomplice in one homicide. At least the cops did a deal with Teria Moore. They bought new houses to cops and new car. They stitched Lee up, and Lee kept her mouth shut all along because she desperately Lovedterrea. And she realized the police had manipulated her her girlfriend. And I felt that so tragic. I felt that so sad. And then they executed this poorn woman and she was crazy. Then it was no need for that.
Yeah, I don't know if she was ever really well. I think she was like abused constantly when she was young. Just all kinds of.
Me, That's what I mean, right from the.
What other I mean, do you?
I'm kind of curious about the Satanic you were in correspondence with Robin Ghekt of the Ripper Crew, and they were kind of like a Satanic crew. He still denies his involvement in any of that stuff. What are your impressions of Robin.
Ghekt, Well, you know, again, I'm putting some of this stuff in the book. I mean, I think he's guilty. You know, people can protest their innocence to the cows come Home. But you know, one of the great places to go if you're thinking about writing or reading about these people is the first of all to go on on the on the appropriate Department of Correction website and see their prison history, a little bit about their prison history and who they are. And the second thing is
to look up the appeals. Now most of these killers have gone through the appellate system, the Supreme court system or something like that, and then you see stuff that you would not see anywhere else. So Robin Ghek might say something about something, but then if you go to the Pellette papers, you'll see the witnesses who said, what, when, how, and further details of the crime. I've just done a killer. His name has been executed. Just my mind's gone blank.
Who wrote a really lovely letter to me, and I'll tell you what. It was beautifully written. There wasn't a spelling mistake anywhere in it. And you know you're seeing what a nice guy. You must be innocent. But then when you read the appellete papers, and when I said to them, well, tell me about the crimes, I said, you've missed. You've missed one out. You've missed not only did you kill six people, but what about your girlfriend that you literally tore a womb out with your hand
and poked her eyes out. You didn't mention that to me.
You see it? You know what I mean.
It's what they say. What they forget to say, Kenneth, be thank you for it. Forgets to say anything until you till all of a sudden and the FBI give you some documents that you prove that. Oh you told me you were a non secrator, Kenneth, naughty boy, But look I've got the FBI papers here to prove that you were.
Thanks right, the omission.
The mission is the greatest form of a live So they leave all that stuff out because there's a lot of like innocent fraud happening in the United States right now, where some of these guys who've killed people, maybe not silly serial killers, but people who've done murders. You know, they have these women, weak minded women who think that.
We're not not always females, but uh.
You think that there's some reason they should get out with all the evidence when you and they should go look at the appellad evens because some of these guys are very nasty characters.
I mean, the big thing in America will be Innocent Project. You can see it on Netflix. They do a fantastic job where the police have fished people up, and you know all the bike marks they just they did. They've now debunked all this bike mark technology. You know, the Ted Bundy with his teeth thing. They've debunked a lot of that now. But you do get a lot of can I say, murder groupies, you get men doing it.
I wrote a book called murder dot Com and I went to Russia and did some mathia stuff out there with and you know the dating agencies and stuff. Men men are just as stupid. They fall in love with these women behind bars and the woman sends them a picture of some beautiful Russian tennis player and says, look, I'm in prison, I need a bit of money, and the guy falls in love with her and starts sending
a loads of cash. But if they had the intelligence to look up up the woman's doc details, they'd see that she was about fifty stone, had more fair tatoos and a fairground worker. And you know, and there was one guy, one woman down in Florida. She was on women behind bars and she was raking and so much cash that the prison couldn't count it all.
Wow, that's amazing.
Yeah, they're probably all getting money. Yeah in this book, this particular books free Killers and mass Murders. I mean, you have a background in the military. You said you were a commando in Northern Ireland, spent time in hospitals, and you talk about your knowledge of guns, but you're also very critical of about americans attitudes about guns and how and they're involving in the spree killers. Can you share your thoughts on that subject?
Well, I did.
I actually did a podcast with a guy down in Florida. He was ex military as well, and we talked about this very subject about easy access to firearms in the United States of America, and he said, well, look, Chris, I can go and buy a gun easily, he said. But he said, but I know how to use it.
I know what damage it can do. Another thing, the big gripe I've got, and it's the fact that when the founding fathers said that every citizen can right to bear guns, back then they only had flint lock pistols and muskets. And it takes three minutes to load a musket. If it's raining and there's can shed load of the enemy tearing down at you'll probably take about a minute
to load it. You'd be shaking like hell. They didn't anticipate that one hundred years later, or less than one hundred years later, firearms would be like AK forty seven's. You know, they never they never planned it that because
they couldn't foresee the future. I mean, when the Wright brothers first took off in that glorified kite and flew one hundred yards at Kitty Hawk, they would never imagine that less than one hundred years later, Concord were flying over the Atlantic a lot, you know what I mean. So no, yeah, you're right, the Americans, and then you get these Americans that I remember the Dune Blade massacre. You know, Andy Murray, the tennis player he was a pupil at the school at the time. He's still traumatized
with it for life now. Now, when that man Hamilton went into that class that school, he had to caliber handguns the same as Dirty Harry had. I mean, they'll stop a mack truck. Those things and the point rank range. He blew the heads off of those little kids. They've got an idiot on. Some guy on YouTube is going, I've got come along, guys, I've got Frankie's gunshot, and we're going to go down today and we're going to show what the forty five cow can do to a
steel plate. And he stands one hundred yards away from it and fire it and blow a hole through it. And then he has it blowed down the barrel and say, what a sweet little piece. But if these people look, they don't realize. You look at the post mortem photographs and some child has been hitting the head by around
like that it's disappeared, the head's gone. And I think Americans, really I've got I know it's going to be a sore point to a lot of people, and I do debate it, and a lot of teachers out there, I mean the teachers out there are going wearing flat jackets and a pistol in the handbag. I mean, my boy goes to a private school. They don't have that fear. We can go to McDonald's here and not worry about having the place blown up. The country's got neurotic.
No, there's a lot of weaponry here. I mean you mentioned it in the book, but you don't shy away from those descriptions. And I think that your style is important because the US is attitude. Violence is what they see on TV, so they almost have a Hollywood eyed, fictionalized view. They don't understand the real brutality of these things like that. You also make an interesting point I didn't know is that the Second Amendments based upon the seventeenth century Bill of Rights from the UK.
Right. Correct, Yeah, so.
It definitely it's worth rethinking, I would say, for sure, at least as an American, I mean I do. I was against the red flag laws, although they implemented some red flag laws recently that I actually agreed with. I didn't actually agree with it when they passed that. But I don't know if you're familiar with the red flag laws there, if somebody is dangerous and as guns, the government can move in and take them away.
Absolutely, I'm familiar with it. But the one thing that sticks in my crawl is the fact that they bang on about being the land of the free, you know, the land of the free. Well, they're not the land of the free. They're living in a total state of paranoia. There's no, absolute, no doubt about that. I spend a lot of my time in the Philippines, not at the moment because of COVID. I've done work out there with homicide police in Manila, and you know, I know the
police and I know the prison systems out there. There has never been a serial killer in the Philippines.
Interesting, it's all history.
There has never been a serial killer in the Philippines period.
Why do you think that is?
Well, one, I mean they, I mean I must have met President Herty has got a way of get rid of drug dealers, you know, like fifteen thousands of them end up dead or because they allegedly brought a gun out and the police shoot them and then they get executed out. They don't mess about out there. They shoot the police, shoot them stone dead. But there is something about the the Philippine culture is very I know, it's a silly thing to say, but they're very much family orientated.
They're very simple. Majority are very simple and poor people. They don't have a lot of what you know, they haven't got a lot of like greed in them. And the further you come west from from the Orient or from Asia, the more you come west, come to England, and then you're Germany England, and then when you get to America you suddenly find out how materialistic society has become. I go to Russia and you know, they'll invite you
into their home. They love you because you're a brit You know, you're straight, you take a little gifts off, you take your shoes off when you go in. They adore the British believer or not. The Russians they adorous because of the little island thing, you know in the last war. And same in Ukraine. And they give you a lot of respect, but they're by they'll buy a kettle or a free fridge, and they're people for decades and decades and decades, or a television set. They have
it for years and years and years. They look after it because they can't afford anything. You go to America and they're trashing stuff every five minutes.
It's true. I mean it's planned.
It's obsolescence and constant consumerism, I think is really predominant here in the States. That's not the same in other countries. If you travel out of the States. Yeah, I mean you get a new carver three years at least something. I got a couple of questions from the audience. One is, do you have any thoughts about the hand of death material and Henry Lee Lucas and kissing. I mean, that's a person who's had a lot of conversation with police and journalists as well.
What what Henry I mean, I interviewed Henry Ellis Unit. Uh, that's where death Row was at the time. They moved it now because Henry died of natural causes. Bless him. He got a pardon from the governor. He was ill at the time when and so with his one eye gungey and stuff like that. He actually said to me, he said, look, we got we got him on cameras well. For me, he said to my I done killed nobody, Chris, he said. And then in the same bed he said, well,
I don't kill my mum. And then I killed my sister because she she said, I don't kill my mum, but I haven't killed anybody else. Well, you know, whoever's asked the question will know that. When he was arrested, the police came from all over the United States and saying, Henry, did you do this? And did you do that? And they got a new teeth and they got him in suit and the gripp and grins, and he was confessing to murders that were two hundred miles apart that he
could look on the same day. So the police are clearing up all their cold cases, right, and Henry's luxury actually got some lovely letters from Henry. You know, he writes quite He used to write quite well. Yeah, yeah, Henry was a good old boy. I mean, he only got convicted of one murder and that was the Orange Stocks killing, you know, the girl that was found naked in a ditch by the side of a freeway. He was all right. I didn't meet Otis Toole, I didn't get to see him, but Henry was all right.
Yeah.
Those guys were terrible, terrible duo actually, the hottest tool and the very strange.
I went around with my crew all around Texas film in locations, talking to sheriffs and cots and das and stuff, and like you say that they live in cowboy land out there, you know, tumble wheat towns. You know. I went, we went to a cafe in one little place where Henry was what stayed. I went to a cafe there and there were bullet holes in the outside wall and I said, well they doing Oh no, that was this used to be a bank. This would Ronnie and Clyde shot this up that we keep the bullet holes.
And Texas is a different state, there's no question about it. Different and certainly on some of the smaller towns, different different mentality. A lot of people are packing a lot of trucks, let them pretty curious. Do you think that there's any subtext or an agenda to some of these serial killers?
Let me think about that question in as much as well most most of serial killers have interviewed, uh, sex killers for instance, you know the sex killers be Yankee for instance, or Harvey the Hammer, other serial killers. I mean this is women don't kill for sexual purposes. Women serial killers or black widows kill for monetary game. Normally alien werenos was completely different.
Cattle the fish.
But there are men that will commit serial homicide for money. J Robinson was an American. The englishman I witnessed being hanged in Changy. John Martin scripts he killed for financial gain, you know, robbing his victims and then chopping them up and stuff. But mostly the people are more interested in really are sex killers. I mean, Ronnie Deffia are the Amateur for Horror. He just died recently. I went to interview him. I've got a lot of letters from him.
Blew his family of sixty death at one one twelve Ocean Avenue in Long Island. He was a fucking heart half with that man. They made the film The Amateur for Horror series, you know.
Yeah, well Haunted by It.
Yeah yeah, it's all rubbish. That's all rubbish, that story. But the thing is they're all as different teachers, chalk and a lump of stinking Bishops cheese. They're all totally different, all.
Different, and just out of curiosity, you are the lineal descendant of doctor John d Is that coat of arms that your family has as that trace back to Dee?
Yeah, that was presented to by Queen Elizabeth.
Yeah. I think so.
He was this alchemist and stuff like that. I mean, he actually formed the first great British libraries body in library for instance. He was a well traveled man, born out of his time, very clever guy. He tried to turn but like that Blackadder thing, you know, Oh look, I've got a piece of green. You know, he tried to turn base metal into gold. And I always say to people, well, that's that I've got doctor John D's
genes in me. I've been trying to turn pen and ink into gold for years, but I haven't succeeded yet.
A little, I mean definitely some. I mean, you've had the best selling bung of twenty seventeen. That's an accomplishment. But he also had that Onokian magical system, which is still around, passed through Crowley and Hubbard and all the other characters.
So yeah, that's truly fascinating. Yeah.
So I actually did a show on John D. If people want to go back and look on one of my shoes. But that's a very complex character. I mean, all his mapping and the way he very very curious, intelligent guy. People are still using his techniques to this day, at least magical techniques is not as far as my understanding is, but it is fascinating that you are related to him. He had the biggest library in Europe at one point. I think, if I remember correctly.
That's right, You're correct. I mean I I sometimes I've got these lovely pictures of Dr John d Up on my wall, and I sometimes imagine if I had a skull cap, you know, like one of those skull cap things on and a rough my nose and everything looks like Dr John Dee.
You kind of do have a resemblance. I actually agree with that one hundred percent. I mean he was, I mean, his pictures, all his pictures of him is with you know, gray Beard, kind of almost.
Like yeah, I want to say something to you. And your viewers might think I'll completely start raving Bonkerson and I should be putting up in a mental hospital. But I actually do feel, and I'm being sincere now that I feel Doctor Jon D's inside me all watching over me. Interesting, and I really feel that power sometimes.
So maybe you maybe it passes through the general. How many generations have passed from d to you? Do you know of found not off the top of America.
I mean the family goes back seven eight hundred years to Roderic, the Great Prince of Wales, and he was He came from Radner by the side of the River D in Wales, hence the name not the Scottish D, but the Welsh River D. And it went on and then I've got the family tree somewhere. It goes right back. But then Dr D son of Beido D had quite a few children. And as you know as well as I do, if you go to Mortlake, there's a church there. He's actually got a stone in the church where he's
allegedly buried. You can visit his old what's left of his old house. And if you walk around that loop in the river there in the Thames, that's where Queen Elizabeth came up in the barge to see him when she had somebody sent her a wax thing with pins in it. And you can stand there, and if you're into doctor John D you can feel him that because that's where we stood, really, by the side of that little thing there, and when you go there, and if you're into D, you do feel it personally.
And I think that there was some other story. He was in a library in Manchester and Witness the Devil. I think there's that story about D. There's a lot of curious elements to his life for sure, communicating with angels, supposedly angels and maybe demons.
Whatever.
I got one more question for you, Christopher, howd you go? Do you think that it is a mental impairment that propels these individuals to commit these crimes?
Could you say that again? You broke on?
Sure? Let me put this up here.
It's on you can read it right on the screen right now. It says My question is, does Christopher think that it is a mental impairment that propels these individuals to commit these crimes?
Not serial killers? No, Very briefly. A lot of this is brought up at mitigation, at trial or an appeal. My son will be yankee for example, bad potty train fell down, bumped his head, blah blah blah blah blah, you know, and a lot of that, A lot you get this bullshit mitigation from lawyers blowing smoke in the in the courts yard. What it What it is is these people know what they're doing is wrong. They're not
technically they're not criminally insane under them Norton rules. In other words, they knew what they were doing were wrong. They weren't out of control at the time. And you've got to remember this. A person that's totally out of control would only probably kill once in a rage, some fantasy driven rage. He'd be That would be insane. He didn't know what he was doing, and you know that's
that legal insanity. But these serial killers go on and on and on and they call down in between events, right, Michael Ross, You know he knew what was doing was wrong. You can't claim it's suddenly a sudden insanity. I was mad at the time, ball I was okay. Afterwards, I went and had dunkin Donuts and talked to the cops, and then a week later I suddenly got insane again and killed somebody else. It's bullshit.
Yeah, that's a great point, really good point. And your website again, let me put that up again. Your website is all your full name altogether is www dot Christopher Barry d dot com.
So it's Christopher B. E R R y d ee dot com.
Right, that's it. That's great.
And you can see a list of all your books and all the places you've been, I mean, tons of shows and things like that, tons of information. Is there anything you'd like to add or anything I missed before? We wrap this up.
Well, no, I mean, as I mentioned at the promo before, I mean I just had the book published in Japan. I can't read it. I don't even know what's in it, although I wrote it, which is rough strange. All I would just say to your viewers, you know, no nightmares, please and be happy and be nice to each other, but also be careful, especially the women.
Be careful. Girls.
Don't take risks at night, don't go and do silly things when you're drunk or anything like that, because there are predators out there and they're hiding in the shadows, and you'll never come across the city. Well, you won't know a serial killer until he hits it and then it's too late, So just be careful.
That's excellent advice, really good point. And I actually really enjoyed your writing style as well. Is very unique, so you actually have a very broad frame of reference.
You can see that.
I'll very quickly bring on this before we go. I've read a lot of Bill Bryson's books. I know Bill, he's read one of mine or two of mine. He's got this irreverence on his travels. He brings cats along with him or you know, his mate, or he'll be somewhere talking about something and then you go off on a tangent and he brings the reader along on his travels with him. That's what I try to do with
my book books. I try to bring an anecdotes to what a place is like, what it's like to go and visit these people, what sort of you know, Ricky, the old plane you travel in. So the reader becomes part of me, and I become part of the reader. So we're on a coach trip together.
Yeah, that's great.
And then they know Christopher berry d And then they know I talk straight. I don't bullshit anything. I cut out the psychobabble, and the reader gets it because it's the We don't need to get all this bs from psychologists and psychiatrists who've never met a serial killer in their lives. I've met thirty of them, and I've touched them, and I've smelt them, you know, and been banged up in a room with them when they're unshackled or they can flip. The whole thing is is I like the
reader to see it. It's our children, our parents, our grandparents that are being murdered, especially in the States. For a handful of bucks. Let's say as it is.
Makes sense and again the author is Christopher Barry D. And the book we kind of covered today as well as some other books, is Talking with Psychopaths and Sad Spree Killers and Mass Murders, published twenty twenty one. Christopher, thank you so much for your time.
All Right, God bless you will.
Oh, God bless you. Okay, so that'll go