Okay, we are a live Hi. This is William Ramsey. Welcome to William Ramsey Investigates On today's show. I have a new guest and a returning guest. If you listen to my show, we'll know the name Adam go rightly. I've had him on. It was amazing. It's four years ago for an excellent book that I read four years ago over COVID and that book that we discussed with Saucers, Spooks and Kook's UFO Disinformation in the Age of Aquarius. Excellent book has great reviews. But it came to my
attention that they also did a documentary. I wasn't aware of it. I'm busy with other stuff things, but a documentary. You'll see the cover poster. If you're watching this on one of my three YouTube channels, x or Rumble or Rockfan, you'll see the kind of poster for it. I think it has a lot of interesting characters in here. See the poster for the Saucers, Spooks and Cooks documentary which was released January twenty second. So I will put a
link to the documentary. It is only at one specific site, which is the full name of the documentary dot VHX dot TV. So go check it out there and support your independent filmmakers and creative people like that. Well, Adam has a long history. He was on with Visigothia sadly passed away last year in January, and published a couple of the old interviews he did with visigoth I think on the Grassy Novel or Beyond the Grassy Nool. So he's written many, many books in addition to Saucers Books
and kooks. One that I have an actual manual copy which I read which was great too, is The Shadow Over Santa Susannah, Black Magic, Mind Control and the Manson Family Family Mythos, So check that out. I also, I think the one that I posted, the interview that's on William Ramby Investigates, is about I think Carrie Thornley, or no, it is King Kill thirty three, I think. But this book is caught in the crossfier carry Thornley, Oswald and
the Garrison investigation. There's also the Prankster in the Conspiracy. That's the one that I posted story of Carrie Thornley and how I met Oswald and inspired the counterculture, which Carrie Thornley's story really is unbelievable but real. Another of his books is Happy Trails to High Weirdness, A Conspiracy Theorists Tour God. The best event of Go Rightley, Who's who in the Manson family is for a Damski The
Golden Age of the UNIFO Contact. So it's had a lot of great books, So go check out Adam go Rightly. But the new guest is Chris Graybill, who was involved in the making of this documentary. I've been speaking all day, I've been streaming all day, so I'm kind of tired, but it really is the right time to do this. So thanks everybody for showing up, and thank you Adam, go Ridley and Chris Graybill for joining us. Thanks for being on the show.
Thanks William. Yeah, I didn't realize that it had been four years. Seem that long that Yeah, thanks for having me on again.
Yeah, thanks for having me cool.
So for people haven't heard Adam or Chris, maybe you guys can talk Adam about your book Sastres, Boots and Cooks and then what led to the creation of this documentary.
Yeah, so that was twenty twenty one that was published and that deals with the whole Paul Benowitz affair that I had to do with a disinformation campaign. Have you a that was targeted targeted Paul Benowitz and had various characters involved in that story. Names your listeners might be familiar with the eufologist Bill Moore, the infamous Richard Dodie, and Paul cast of characters. But you know the long
story short. Benowitz, he was a scientist, physicist, operated a business that he started in the seventies called Thunder Scientific that was located outside of Kirkland Air Force Base in Albuquerque,
New Mexico. And he had an interest in UFOs and started seeing UFOs over Kirtland Air Force Base and that kind of started the whole quote unquote Benawitz affair where he started filming and photographing these things and they were over a sensitive area at Kirkland where they were doing at the same time a lot of testing of experimental
secret aircraft and other gizmos and such. And anyway, Benowitz started talking about the strange stuff was seen there and contacted the Air Force security folks let them know what was going on, what he was seeing, and of course they took him in and talked to him and did not discourage his belief that what he was seeing was extraterrestrial.
UFOs in fact went on to encourage those beliefs, and you know, according to some of the stories, actually concocted fake alien scenarios and different hoax documents to lead him further on and ultimately had discredited him. And as I said, he was a victim to this disinformation campaign that ultimately drove him off the deep end. So that in a nutshell is part of the story that I tell in Saucer, Spooks and Cooks.
Right. So that book came out, It's got great reviews. I just thought it was fascinating, the whole story of Benowitz and this kind of downward spiral that happened in twenty one. And then how did this project, the documentary come together.
I read Adam's book after searching around for other, you know, like a UFO story, because I wanted to make a UFO movie, and a friend recommended me his book and I read it and I had just found a whole bunch of I was living in Japan at the time, and I had just found a whole bunch of knep on TV old UFO documentaries from like the eighties and nineties, and it had like all of the characters that were
in the in Adam's book. And then someone turns me onto the book and I'm like, oh, this is like weird coincidence that it just it kind of mirrored the the films that I was watching. So yeah, so I was really intrigued, you know, like there I could you know, there was a ton of footage for all this stuff. And then I was thinking like, well, if I could find something new to bring to the table with the beneits, you know, like some new footage or something that hasn't
been found yet. And so I found some audio of Benewitz that is in the film, and that kind of set me on the course of like, Okay, I'm going to make this, And so I reached out to Adam and he was he was totally on board, and yeah, that kind of was the the.
Main That's how it started. Right. So of course this is in your first project too. You've done other projects in the past.
Right, Oh yeah, I've like worked on like hundreds of animated films and I worked on a couple of other documentaries, So.
So this is you know, this is not your first radio. So you guys got together and actually went on site. Correct, You guys got out there to New Mexico. Yeah, can you talk about that?
Let's see. So Adam came down to La where we filmed Greg Bishop and then that was like super intense three hour in the heat with all my lights set up, and then we made a road trip out to Dulce. On the way to Dulce, we went stopped by Farmington where there was a supposed flying saucer crash, but we couldn't find anything.
Supposedly, yeah, supposedly it was according to some sources, uh, where the Aztec saucer crashed happened. But you know, the more you look into that, there's different peace people who wrote books about as tech, and I think the site we went to check out was somebody who had written a book in the last couple of decades and decided just to put his own monument out somewhere. That got torn down at some point, So who knows. How did you do?
You guys drive by the ship rock too on the way to Farmington, the rock in the middle of nowhere. Yeah, no, that's good land. I mean that whole northern part of New Mexico is.
He didn't go by a giant crater that was It was just massive. That was really fun.
Oh yeah, there's one right on north of It's called ship Rock and it's south south along with that freeway there which is five to one five. So if you come east west, if you drive east west, you you might have seen it if unless you drove at night.
I think we were taking like we were kind of up really northern New Mexico too, so we might have been off the beaten path of highways.
It's a haunted kind of spooky area at times. I think that.
Yeah. Yeah, And we actually went out to uh Dulce and you know, took some b roll and uh of the actual spot supposedly where the Dulce base is located. So we got gotten around quite a bit, uh two different sites. And you can see that on the substack. Chris is starting to post some stuff that didn't make it into the film. That's kind of the design behind the substack. We started and we also started a podcast, and I think Chris posted the first episode today.
So what's the title of the podcast, same.
Title podcast, And the design behind it is. We filmed a lot, We interviewed a lot of a lot of people and of course, a lot went onto the cutting room floor because we just ultimately didn't have room for it. You know.
So it's already two hours, right, so it's a fair right.
It is pretty epic.
Yeah, So you know, that's kind of, like I said, the design behind this to feature all the other stuff, because there's a lot of cool interviews and stuff we did that didn't make it into the film, so we'll just repurpose those for this podcast.
Gotcha, So you got more content? That's great, tons of contents. I'm sorry, go ahead, no, no, please continue.
I was gonna say when we got to Albuquerque, nor Ohaiakawa, who we interviewed for the film, he was really nice and like took us all around these different spots in New Mexico or in Albuquerque, and he took us by the Benowitz House, which I maybe his wife was still
living there. It's I'm not really quite sure, but that was It was funny because it was kind of we were not supposed to be there, so I couldn't really film too well there, so I did get like some stills and a little footage, but that was interesting to be at that site, you know. And and right across from Kirtland.
Right the air Force base. So you get a chance to go by Zora Ranch. Oh my god, just kidding. There might be an active investigation there now. But yeah, don't they'll say. For people who don't know, it's right at the border of southern Colorado, right right up kind of in. It's pretty sparsely populated, right, but benow what's lived in Albuquerque? Is that correct?
Mm hmm, yeah, right, as you'll see. Actually, folks will go on that our sub stack there you'll see, like Chrisma was saying, his townhouse and where he could actually look into Kirkland Air Force Base in Monsano Mountain. That's where you're seeing all the UFO activity or whatever you've seen is most likely experimental aircraft. So I forgot where
I was going with this. But yeah, he and his business Thunder Scientific, was also right at the gate of the Kirkland Air Force Base, and his business they you know, he was this kind of scientist, physicists, physicists, mad scientist guy created different instruments for aircraft, you know, avionics, altimeters,
that type of stuff. But when he got into the whole UFO thing, he started devising all these other instruments to pick up what he believed were alien beams and signals and all of this type of stuff, when in reality, at least according to some sources, what he was picking up or different like spice satellites and other things they were working on at Kirtland Air Force Base during this period, which is why, you know, the government wanted to kind of derail what he was seeing or at least confuse
him and make him believe that they were all this stuff he was witnessing was actually alien craft and not you know, these like this was the whole period when the stillth bomber was being developed and all of this other stuff.
Right, So Kirtland, I believe is where is it located in Albuquerque? Is it the one that's south east of the downtown Albuquerque's it's like a huge base, right.
Oh, yeah, it's huge and it's yeah, and it's adjacent to the airport, actually is right up right up against it. And that was part of the larger story that during this whole Benowitz period when he was monitoring all this stuff, the airport lost power and communication like for several hours one day, I mean we were talking seven or eight hours, and it was it was most likely on account of something that was they were testing at Kirtland that you know, made everything go haywire.
Yeah, so high tech stuff going on in New Mexico totally. Yeah. The so you guys filmed there. You had Nori Ohayakawa, who's also kind of a known UFO expert, right, is he in the film?
Yes, yes, yeah, you know he was the What we deal with in the film is a lot of what was going on in the nineteen eighties with these revelations of Kirtland Base, which were kind of a spin off of the Benwitz affair, and that's when these stories about Area fifty one emerged. So a lot of the characters that were prevalent on the scene during that period we talked to, such as Nori Ohyakawa, who was we spent
a lot of time out. He was with the citizens group that were protesting how they were during that period keeping people out of Area fifty one, where you know, a lot of the same things going on at Kirtland was happening there, you know, and a lot of these groups were trying to figure out what exactly was going on, you know, And so we also talked to just a number of people David Perkins, who was had a long history and researching cattle mutilations in the Dulce area, and
Christian Lambright who was involved in the Benwitz affair, and just yeah, a whole number of people also, you know, the characters like Bill Cooper were involved in this scene during the late eighties along with John Lear kind of pushing these emerging stories concerning what was going on at Dulce Base with purportedly supposedly you know, there was a treaty with the government with the aliens and they had the secret base there where they were basically creating these
alien human hybrids, and all these stories later kind of informed, inspired, influenced, you know, the stories we saw in X files in the by the mid nineties.
Right, that whole area is kind of Xi. Where was Bill Cooper He was headquartered somewhere around there. Was he in Arizona and.
Was in Arizona for a long time.
Yeah, right, So that's also the land of the cattle mutilations really is actually that northern New Mexico area, if I remember for there's a lot there.
Yeah, and that's a that's a big part of the story as well, because that's something that That's one of the things that got Benowitz interested in UFOs were the cattle mutilation and the you know, into the mutilations that were going on during that period, which you know, we're also all these researchers and investigators were trying to find out, you know, what was the connection here going on with all of these Was it similar to what was going on at Kirtland where the government was happy to have
people believe that, you know, it was ets that were being seen or over the base as opposed to secret aircraft, and the same you know, could be you could contribute that to the cattle mutilations that they were happy to point people in the direction of ets being responsible for the mutilations. But once again, you know, there there was a prospect that it was connected to some type of secret government project going on during that period. Right.
And for people who don't know who Greg Bishop is, who's great because you guys were there talking to him too, right.
Uh. Yeah. He is the author of the first, really the first book on the Benowitz affair project Beta, which I would also highly recommend for anybody wants to take a deep dive into the story.
Gotcha. So he was an integral part of the film too.
Right, Yes, definitely, yeah, I mean he was really one of the biggest key parts to telling the story.
I feel like, kind of keeping you guys informed and talking to that. Did you guys get a chance to go to any of the other UFO sites while you guys are on the road?
Hm? Where do we? We were mainly just hitting stuff that had to do with the story, so we didn't straight too far from.
That Ferdland Dolce. And the other thing is like this person that was in this story who pops up still I think is Richard Dody?
Right?
Can you talk about it?
So? Yeah, Richard Dody was with the Air Force Office of Special Investigations there at Kirtland and yeah, it's a pretty involved story. But also involved was a eufologist investigator. Author Bill Moore wrote the book on the Roswell Incident.
And so how the Dody and Moore got connected with Benowitz had to do with an incident where this mysterious character who Moore has referred to as Falcon code name over the years, allegedly a high level CIA agent came in contact with more around this period we're talking nineteen eighty after he had published his book on Roswell and struck up a deal with him. More was prominent in
UFO circles at that time. He belonged to a group called APRO, the Aerial phen Phenomenon Research Association, which was investigating UFOs in the Southwest. Anyway, the government, the spook types approached More and offered him a bargain. If he would keep track on people in eufology and report back to them, you know, working as an informant, they would in trade give him access to top secret information related
to UFOs. And during during that period, much more so than today, a lot of the folks involved in the different UFO groups were also these guys who were civilian contractors and who worked on uh you know, different like some of the stealth projects and these type of things during this period. And at the same time, you know, you had you had different UFO conventions where he had these civilian content tractors interested in UFOs.
You have.
Spies from the Soviet Union and China showing up upon occasion, and so that was kind of what the interest was in people in eufology and contacts Bill Moore had. He had some various contacts in the Soviet Union is to basically find find out who these find out who these
spies were, and pass on to them bogus information. And that's where a lot of these hoax documents that a lot of moving parts of the story that came out during this period, d MJ twelve documents and the Aquarius documents and all these things that were connected to Bill Moore and Richard Dody Doty kind of, according to the way he tells the story, he was a middleman or proxy behind the high level spooks, and he was the one that was passing more a lot of these supposedly
super secret documents. A lot of them ultimately turned out to be hoaxed documents, like the MJ twelve papers that basically confirmed the Roswell crash, which was kind of convenient because Moore had written a book about the Roswell crash a couple of years before these documents surfaced, and so, you know, it's a very convoluted story that you know and we don't know we know all the answers who
was involved with it. Was Bill Moore actually concocting some of these documents, were more in Doty working together was basically more dupe who didn't know anything, I have my suspicions, but we still after all these years, really don't have the answers to all the pieces of the puzzle.
Right, And it really is a complex thing. And one of the things that I think people would be surprised about is that these how many intel and military people around at least this particular case, if not the UFO movement in general. Would you agree with that?
Well, of course, yeah, you've been and I talk about
it throughout the book. It's kind of the same cast of characters that keep reappearing over the decades that you know, dating back to the likes of hal poutof back in the early seventies with project at Stanford Research Institute where they're doing experiments in a remote viewing for the CIA, And he's another one of those guys who turns up in all these stories I talk about in the book all the way to current date with you know, at least this last decade with to the Stars Academy and
Tom DeLong and once again pushing stories of Roswell and Flying Saucer crash retrievals. I believe they're all the connected, you know, And.
What go ahead, I was gonna say going back to
the Farmington thing there. I think the the reason that we actually went there just to switch gears for a second, was because in your book, Adam, there's a great chapter called Crash Goes the Saucers, and it goes into the Aztec crashed Saucer, which we found in this case was in portt and and it was it was the story was put out like in the nineteen fifties by this guy Frank Scutt, who wrote Behind the Flying Saucers, and he was actually being fed this stuff by this guy
named Silas Newton who had who had been just telling the stories to him, and then he wrote it into his book. Am I getting this right at him? M?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And so it turns out this guy Silas Newton, he you know, it really lays out all of the tropes from the craft saucer, like the little little people little aliens were found you know, near the body or near the saucer, and what are some other like the the meta metals or meta materials. I think that was part of this this sty two back, and you know, it's like really early on in the fifties.
And they yeah, and they you know the same story that later cropped up in Roswell. They h cordoned off the area and brought in uh military that hauled off the spaceship or the remains of the spaceship and took it to write Patterson Air Air Base. And you know, also connected to that was that they hadn't one of the aliens survived and they had it in captivity. And all of this got these stories got recycled into Roswell and the Benowitz affair.
But the guy that basically started that story was Silas Newton, who turned out to be this like serial con man, you know, he was he was like making fake what do you call it, the oil He was like a fake oil man or something, and he had all these cons, you know, to make cash. And this was just like part of that.
This was just another one of his kind of money making schemes. Interesting the do you ever come across Banister? Wasn't he involved in one of the earlier early not Banisters? What's the guy's name from the g f K, the FBI agent.
Well, yeah, guy Banister. You are correct. He does come up in euphological history in a kind of an odd way of you know, Banister was connected allegedly to the JFK assassination. He was he was a longtime FBI guy and retired from the FBI and had this was a private investigator. You know, during the JFK assassination, he was connected anti Castro Cubans and Garrison alleged he was just part of this nexus of CIA rogue CIA agents like
David Ferry and the anti Castro Cubans. But you know, he was also involved in the early days of UFOs in forty six forty seven, that period, I believe he was in Wyoming and it was right after the Kenneth Arnold sighting, which was like nineteen June of forty seven, and there was this whole flap of UFOs right after that kind of sparks something for the next couple of weeks. If you go go to newspaper dot com, look at that period, there's this flap and that's when the Roswell
crash happened. But there was also this outbreak of small saucers that people were finding across the country and in most cases it looked like uh stuff that kids built and uh planted or launched, you know, and uh concerned people were, you know, flying saucers were in the air. So ye had this whole slew of these different small saucers. Some looked like they were made by like symbols from a drum, these type of things. And so that's where
Banister comes into the story. He actually investigated one of these small h saucers that were most likely from what I could tell from all the reports were just kind of hoaxes that people were building the building these and you know, there there was quite a few stories of these small discs that h got reported during this period, and that's that's Banners.
Yeah, he was like there was one pre it's pre Roswell. There was some kind of like disc craze. So the yeah po stuff goes back pretty far. Yeah, pretty wild. So you have a new podcast, it's that you can people can find it at the at the sponsor's Spooks and Cookes substant right, yes, right, So that's it, and then the film people have to I'll put a link to it. It's Saucers, Spooks and Cokes at dot VHX and TV. Is there anything else in the film that
you like to cover or anything I missed her? And what else can people expect to see in the documentary.
We kind of go into the uh, you know, the last decade of UFO history that's happened, and that was kind of one of the big things that I wanted to do is put into every put into context everything that's been happening, you know, in the new UFOL story, and in juxtaposition that with you know, the old UFO stories from like the eighties and nineties, and so to have that historical context, the picture of the UFO story comes much clearer. I felt like, so we covers Skinwalker,
tts A, you know, big A, Low dealings. David Grush is not in. I mean, he's in the film, but we don't really cover.
Talk what's your what's your take on the TTSA to the Stars of gain.
Well In the film, Greg Bishop, you know, says it was kind of just like a cog a wheel. I think he used that term, so kind of just like a stepping stone to get to a different place in whatever kind of story they're trying to put.
Out, you know, I mean, is it still intact?
I think it is on some level. I think he's put out or a tum Delong's put out a film maybe last year. I haven't really followed it too closely.
Because I mean I thought that they were kind of like in financial straits if I remember correctly at one time.
Yeah, that's that's true.
Huh yeah. So people can check out the film. I've played the trailer a few times. Sound off. I'll put the links in there. So anything you'd like, you guys like to add before I wrap it up Friday. What do you think of them?
Oh uh no, I think we covered it pretty well.
Okay. People can find your books at your website too. So your website is Adam go rightly too.
This is.
And that's the best place to contact you, or the substack. So I can put links to your website, the substack, and then the film too as well. Right yeah. Do you sign your books, Adam? If people can buy them through your website you sent them out, I can do that sometimes.
Yeah, still have to contact me at my email, gotcha.
So and the website. So you've got places for people to contact you. And again what we talked about. Check it out, guys. Two Hours of Information is the document. Check out the book too. Check out Saucer Spooks and Cookes. Well hell yeah, yeah, don't get it. It's got great reviews. I read it I can vouch for it, but also go check out the movie. It's right here. You can see it, and it's Saucer, Spooks and Cookes and the guesses.
Adam go rightly, and then his fellow worker on the film, fellow creative, is Chris Graybill g r A Y.
Yeah, I have one thing to add there, William, you were talking about Visigoth and how you're starting to.
You got the archive from I have eight hundred or nine hundred episodes, Adam, Well, I got.
A lot there, so I might have some you don't have, and I'll look through those tonight. Vis and I actually did our own podcast, maybe a dozen episodes when we gave it different names. One was the Untamed Grassy Knoll. And I'm not sure if you have those files, cell.
I tell you what I have. Yeah, there used to be some on a website. I can't remember what the name of it is now, but the links don't work anymore. So a lot of the old links are gone. So I'm trying to collect. If you have any of his old stuff, send it to me. I really want to find He did an interview with one of the McMartin women, mc greevy or whatever, Joe vi On, I can't find
that one. Like, it's really an important archive because of all the important people like you who he's interviewed over time, like these are still relevant. There's a whole new generation of researchers that just listen to podcasts and really are interested. So yeah, yeah, it's the archive is active, like people do listen to it. I wouldn't say it's like Joe Rogan, but you know, I get it. You know, thousands of people a month they're on there listening to old stuff,
your stuff. Yeah, and it's all really important timestamps and so many great authors that Visigoth really had its sensibilities even like at the very kind of beginning parts of the Internet were really good, Like you really had reached out to people who were writing and I think what was important stuff. So yeah, the archives are eight hundred. I've got I broke it down into seven so it's easier. Seven different archives so it's easier to kind of get through.
And Adam's in there. So yeah, if you send me those old ones, I'd be happy to post them, you know, and it'll help kind of get your name out there people, it'll help you sell books. That's for sure. Cool Again, guys, thanks so much for your time. Congrats on the new film just came out January twenty twenty five and it is a documentary based on the excellent book Saucers, Spooks and Coops. So thanks so much for your time. Really appreciate it.
Thank you, William.
All right, stay there,