69-Remembering One Step Beyond with John Kenneth Muir on The Grassy Knoll with Vyz. (2004)

That is the creepiest music, the scariest song I have ever heard associated with anything on any kind of horror movie or show or whatever. And that has a lot to do with the guests we have on today and the subject about which we will speak, and we had with this John Kenneth Muir. He is the author of many books about horror and sinnem and such, which is just a hoop. I hope beyond our show the last

And John, thanks for coming on.

Ah, it's a pleasure to be here. Thank you.

Keith oh Man, I'll tell you what. I don't know what it is that got me on this trail a while ago.

It's probably having about him insomnia and just going down.

Whatever you know roads.

I'm bled, but I guess I had mentioned something when I had started using part of that theme song which is entitled fear Uh for an intro and then someone said, hey, you know One Step Beyond still floating out there, And then I started looking and and I came to your site, and folks, I don't tell you right now. The link is up there along with the link to the audio, and John's a website as well, which is John Kenneth Muir dot com.

All that's on my homepage. But there's a a transcript of an interview that John did with John Newland, who was your Was he your host? And to the Beyond or.

Something like that, that that did exactly your guide to the world of the unknown.

Yeah, and uh, we're gonna talk about One Step yr. We're gonna talk about John Newland. But I'll tell you what, Uh, John, why don't.

You set up a little brief historical synopsis of the show.

Absolutely One Step Beyond, which was originally called alco of Prisons because back in the day of the late fifties early sixties, we had companies sponsoring a whole hour or half hour of entertainment on television as a post to today where we have various companies doing it. So One Step Beyond was originally called ALCOA Presents One Step Beyond, but It was a paranormal anthology that premiered in nineteen fifty nine, actually ten months before Rod Sterling's The Twilight Zone.

Of the show.

He was very aware of what TV was like at the time, and he had guest starred in a lot of shows, and he wanted to do for his show one step beyond, something very different, instead of focusing on sort of supernatural horror like later shows like a Night.

Gallery that was a Starling production. Also, was it not.

Absolutely like you got it?

You know?

Instead of just doing that, what he wanted to do was investigate the paranormal, and so all of his stories he wanted to have some foot in reality, and so when he narrated, he would say things like, what you were about to see, as a matter of human record, explain it. We cannot disprove it, we cannot know it. Was that sort of thing where that he actually tried to invest investigate all of.

These paranormal events.

And so in the course of the three years and ninety six half hour episodes that One Step Beyond was on television. You know, they did things like they did cases involving reincarnation, big foot sightings, They even did a biography of Peter Herko's a famous psychic at the time. They did, you know, crisis apparitions and premonitions and clairvoyants

And one of the interesting things.

About Akivas and I know you know this because you remember these episodes, but they would often tell a story on One Step Beyond, and then in the last five minutes of a half hour, they would bring on an eyewitness, the person.

Who had experienced in the story.

For instance, there was an episode called title Wave in nineteen sixty about a deaf woman who was not able to hear the call to evacuate when title wave was coming in, but she was rescued by a stranger who excuse me, who sort of hurt her calls for help. At the end of the show, they brought on the people involved. So it tried very hard to be accurate and realistic, and you know that just made it doubly creepy.

You've got William.

Shatner in an episode, Christopher Lee is in an episode, Warren Batty is in an episode, Claris Leachman, you know, great cast and great stories.

No, I'm just thinking back now because, as we've said before, in those days of TV, there seemed.

To be a number of actors who were the usual suspects.

That turned up in almost every show, regardless of what network is.

Then. Of course, ABC, CBS and NBC was still eight hundred pound gorillas, you know, right, and carried a lot of I guess story serials and I won't go into the whole thing.

But I remember like ABC, you know, had just a whole bunch of stuff done by Warner Brothers.

That was Chyenne and Sugarfoot.

Rick and all this other stuff. And I mean some of these actors would just be in all these shows. And the same is true with One Step Beyond. In fact, John Newland himself, as you had said at the beginning, and we're spelling that any W L A N D. John as John John Newland also appeared.

In other shows on TV.

But the one thing that never fit when he played this kind of part because of what he did on One Step Beyond. He was a cowboy, you know, John Newlan pulling the gun and saying, Okay, you're trying to be a heavy. It just isn't work. And you know that was so out of cot but you I think was on your blog. I'm not sure, but somebody said it just perfectly about the way that Newlan presented himself

I wish I had said that. I don't know if I did. But that's a.

Great well, isn't it.

Oh, Because he just had the slightest little upturn to his mouth and his eyes just a bit.

You know, it was like, you know, you weren't sure is he having you on?

Is he not having you on?

You know, you weren't sure.

You know, he took such a delight in the you know, the macabre elements of the series, and you know it's it's you know today, it's it's very easy and very right. How we credit Rod Serling with so much of the creative genius of the Twilight Zone, but you know, I

And they did it, they did it well, and they did it understated. I mean, in the last twenty years, you know, we've had to become in or if we're willing to do that with slashing movies and a lot of gore and a lot of body parts. But back then it was also lot like what Hitchcock did, you know, with the turning of a doorknob, like a close up was was would drive you right out of your chair and not knowing who was going to come in on the other side. But you you remember that set too

So it was this like gray background. But you know what was spooky about it.

The shadows that were cast through that transom with like the three spokes. Yeah, I mean I think they call him transoms whatever they that decord. The thing is over the front door, that's glass what it is. Yeah, and those those rays came in, I mean, the shadows came in and it was like that just spooked me out, you know.

And and then he would.

Also walk into the opening scenes stage.

Setting right right he exactly, he would he would come in and he would interact almost you know, he'd be there staring at the people like they'd finish their scene and he'd be standing there or or walk amongst the set and pick up a off or what have you. So he was very integrated into the into the into the scenes. And you know what was so amazing about what he did is that some of those episodes talking

You know?

And one is it going to fall? And what is it going to do?

You know?

I mean that's just such beautiful, economical, uh, storytelling to hinge everything on one device, you know, tinge everything on one idea, the idea of a chandelier, of a premonition that that the chandelier in your house is going to fall, you know, and he would do spinning cameras around the chandelier, low angles up. But yeah, it's just brilliant stuff. And you know, of course it was on a budget. It didn't cost anything to make that scary episode.

You know, well, you make a good point, because what they did was it was it. They used.

The solid storytelling techniques, especially the right and it was only a half an hour show as far as.

I remembered that, did he not do one or two that might have been expanded?

I think he only did half hour shows for one step beyond now he did go on later to direct episodes of Night Gallery and such, which were a various lengths.

So you may be thinking of one of those.

Okay, No, I didn't know if he ever did like a special, because you know, it seemed like, well, well we'll talk about that one that he actually went down into into South America for I thought that might have been a longer. But for the most part he did.

Okay, if he did exclusively one hour show half hour shows, right, what's also well, what's what's good about that in those days is that there was less commercial content and you got more, you know, story content, not like it is now, so you got a little bit more of a break trying to tell a story in a half hour. But still that is very tough.

To do, it is it is, And you know, that's when you realize so much depends on performance and the image that's told, you know, and and and how well written the story is. It's just, you know, really one step beyond has been my model for sort of effective, really low budget filmmaking. If you think about it, yeah.

You know, it's well, I'll say it was. They did even a better job. But I think they were to TV horror shows if you will, what maybe not a Living Debt was a low budget you know, horror films. You know, it wasn't a big expenditure, but they made it work in black and white. Also, let's face it, when it gets down to things that are creepy, black and white still works as a medium, I think, much better than color.

I agree.

You know, when you're looking at something in black and white, kid, and I think you feel the same way. You know, you're not looking at the color of the clothes somebody's wearing, or the color of the wall behind them. You're looking at those at their faces, and you're looking at shadow and you're looking at the light. And you know, it makes the actors almost come out more in black and white because you're really focused on their features and what

You know, well, what you just said I think is true.

And this is why also I think it works still to just dan I and that is is the gradations of gray, the shadows, those are that there's so much more dramatic than color can ever be. I mean again, back in the old days of TV, which I remember of most of it being black and white, you also had shows. Boy, oh, there's a million stories in the

But that's you know.

And The Defenders is another one I remember from those days with E. G. Marshall and Robert Reid his first TV series, and it was done in the city and it was, you know, it was black and white, and it really it worked.

It had to be like that.

It drew all the attention of viewers to the actors and to what they were doing and to the cuts, and there wasn't all this. You know, they never shot like any kind of vista or skyl into New York City because that wasn't part of it. You know, it was down in dirty stuff. And so this was in one step beyond. And let me just set this up for you real.

Quick if I can. I do you know, do you remember I believe that one.

Step beyond jumped day in time once. Do you have any other schedule changes to them for any of the three seasons?

Gosh, you know, I don't think so. I think it pretty much kept the Tat the same time, the only real format ship was that had shot like the last thirteen in Great Britain because they kind of needed a change. And I think there was just one schedule shift. I think that was in the third year.

I think, all right, I thought it's it changed a day because all right now I'm watching this show.

Now.

Do we remember when new shows were birthed in the old days. Was this a coming out in September of fifty nine?

You know, it actually started in January fifty nine. It actually you know, it started like the mid season or well, actually, you know, it's the beginning of nineteen fifty nine.

But it's what today we would call.

Them mid season, the show, you know, the fifty eight to fifty nine season. See, And that's how it'd be twilight Zone if these twilight Zone came around come September fifty nine. But One Step Beyond had already you know, which I had already been on the air for you know, almost a year at that point.

Okay, all right, now here's what happened. This is what I remember. I'm going to go back and I'm going to look into New York Times TV listenings when I go back up to the university here and go back into nineteen fifty nine or sixty and look at the because you know, all the shows obviously are listed there.

Well, it is craepy.

So I remember I would get you know, I would do my homework, but boy, I used that over my head. Let me tell you, well, you better than the homework. Well that homework i'd done, I think it was Wednesday night.

I'm not sure. Do you know what day it was?

You know, I it's been think it's been almost ten since I wrote the book, and I don't remember what night it was.

That's okay, but I don't.

I don't remember which night it was actually on in its original broadcast.

I'm thinking it was a Wednesday night because it was a school night.

I remember that, and it was at some time when I was allowed to watch it, so I had to get my homework done and I had to get showered. I mean, they got everything they wanted out of me. And I remember the show before it was called Stagecoach that I remember.

I mean, I don't.

I can't even tell you one plot line stage Coach because I was just sitting there, just waiting for one step beyond the come on and when it started with the music, and when it started with the drums and with the one step beyond, you know, bang bang bang, when that came on the screen, I was like already gripping the arms.

Of the chair.

You know, that's great.

Well, you know the thing is, you know, I like to always say that, you know, one step behind looks like it was like transmitted. It does look like it was transmitted from a twilight and you can watch it now. It just takes you back to a place sometimes. You know, I was just really amazing thing.

What you wrote that book ten years ago.

I realized when I was looking in the book, because I wanted to recall the exact time, you know, I was one of the last people was fortunate enough to interview John Newlyan's right, and I wanted to look up and see exactly what the date was so I could tell you. And it looks like I interviewed him on the afternoon of October twenty eighth, nineteen ninety nine. So it's not quite ten years, but it's like maybe nine years.

Written the book. So yeah, it was it was nineteen ninety nine when.

I did it, Bah, I can't play and John Newlan I was happy to find out because this doesn't often work this way.

His on screen persona seemed very classy.

He managed not to get himself involved in any tabloid stuff even back then because there still wasn't you know.

The National Inquirer was with us back then as well.

Right, He just seemed to be clean and sharp and did his job, and you found him to be the gentleman I was hoping he would be.

He was.

I have to tell you, he was just a delight to interview. He spent probably two two and a half, maybe even close to three hours with me on the phone, and he answered every single question I asked, and he didn't he didn't plenty punches, like when I would ask him like what was your least favorite shower? You know that they did a sequel series in the seventies and syndication called Next Step Beyond, which you.

Know wasn't very good.

He was very upfront and honest about what the flaws of that series were. He was just very willing to talk about the whole experience from One Step Beyond, the

But I mean, was he still show up as attack or whatever when you were talking to him.

Absolutely, he was huge. Remember titles of episodes and things. I said, you know, what was your least favorite episode of One Step Beyond and why? And he remembered it was called blood Flower. It's a not very good episode about.

Like a flower carrying like the blood of.

Revolutionaries since Nouth America or something. He said, all I just thought that concept stunk.

You know.

He was he was just a great guy.

And he remembered episode titled He remembered his interactions with actresses like Suzanne Plachett or actors like Warren Batty. He just remembered everything. He remembered specific shoots. He was able to tell me a story about meeting Frank Sinatra on the set of One Step Beyond shooting an episode called If U See Sally. You know, it was just amazing. It was really one of the highlights of my professional career to be able to share that time with him, and he was just very given.

I thanks to do that.

And he was in a very pivotal spot. I mean, not only had he been an actor and.

Now was the host of the show, but he was also a director and so he know what he was talking about. And I guess, you know, it might have been a really interesting relationship for him to be involved with this wave of new actors and actresses that would soon be the bombs, if you will, in the sixties through the seventies.

Oh, absolutely you know, he told me fascinating stories about what it was like shooting Warren Baby, and how insecure Warren Batty was. He was an episode called Visitors, and how he would come and watch the dailies every day to make sure that he was doing okay, you know, to see all the raw footage of.

Their episode and stuff.

You know, I just did, you know, really amazing stuff to learn about. You know, he told that story about Frank Sinatra. Frank Sinatra is shooting a war movie on the side of one hill.

And him doing it.

Yeah, and Newland was filming if.

You see Sally on the other side, and Frank Sinatra sent a messenger over to him and said, you know, keep it down, John, we're trying to film a movie here. And John Nowlan said, this is this is unbelievable. So John Newland said he sent a message back to Frank Sinatra saying, tell Frank he can go f himself.

Because we're shooting a TV.

And so John Nolan went back to shooting, not thinking anything of it, and they said there was dead silence on his set and he turned around and Frank Sinatra was standing beside it behind him. You know, he was standing right behind him, and he said, I got your message, John, And he said Frank Snatra was wonderful.

They hugged and everything was fine.

But God, could you imagine.

You don't say that to somebody from home, both in New Jersey?

Absolutely not. I mean that takes a takes bald of brass to say that. Frank Sinatra, I think, uh.

And then so why don't we just say it all? Now? I'm speaking with John Kenneth Muir. Uh, he's a.

Joysy boy who he understands where that's at. You You grew up in Essex County, didn't you.

I did, absolutely right.

That's the county doesn't go to. I mean, there was no reason for me to go to Essex County.

It's a really pretty county in New Jersey.

Well, my friends were at Harrison so anyway, But be that as it may. We were talking about a TV horror show, and horror almost seems to be a little bit too jurassic a word. Would you cold suspense me?

How did when you wrote the book, how did you term that genre of of a TV show?

You know, it was very hard to do, you know, I wrote the book sort of in the heyday of shows like The X Files and Millennium and such. So you know, I was very much comparing how One Step Beyond treated these concepts and how newer shows did. So I did sort of lump it in with the horror, but I okay with you that it's really an imprecise.

Comparison. You know, there is really no comparison.

I mean, it's suspends thrills. You know, it is horror in a sense. There was one episode called Ordeal on Locus Street about this horrible thing upstairs.

It was like a fish boy and stuff.

So you know, occasionally it would go straight into horror, but it wasn't like what you would think of horror necessarily today.

If that makes sense, Yeah it does, and honestly I would call it horror too, but you know, to me, it was just so much classier than what we call horror.

Today, you know, right because today you know, you think a lot about the special effects. You know, say, there are a lot of remakes and things like that. You know, One Step Beyond was really sort of an original initiative, you know. There there had never been a show like Get on television before. And that's another thing that John Newlan told me.

He said, I was on the.

Set, you know, midway through the first season of One Step Beyond shooting and he was called on the telephone by Rod Serling, and Rod Serling asked to meet him in person, and John Newlan said, well, sure, M'd.

Be glad to me.

They went to a restaurant together in la and Rod Serling told him, he said, I just want you to know I'm not going to rip you off, he said, I'm doing a show called The Twilight Zone. He said, but it's not you know, it's not paranormal, and it's not about you know, evidence of the paranormal or you know, documenting the paranorm. It's just an anthology of fantasy, science

You know, I mean, you're right, he didn't. He wasn't expected to do that, but he did that, and that exudes class.

It's absolutely and that's what John knew. I say, he's just a classy, classy guy.

And you know, everything I read about Rod Serlings curly indicates that that was really the case. But you know, that was one of my favorite anecdotes too, because today twilight Zone is so popular, it's been remade so many times. It's you know, everyone knows what twilight Zone is. But you know, besides, you know, a couple of diehards like us. You know, people don't always remember how good One Step Beyond was, which makes me sad.

And you had said to me, and I appreciate that you said that, and it makes sense, you know, One Step Beyond because it isn't remembered by too many folks because obviously you got to be a fossil like myself to have you know, been involved with it. I mean, obviously my folks who watch it are no longer with us, so well that's left are those of us who were born you know, anywhere from what I don't know, you know, mid forties. I guess you would call him the boomer generation.

Well, and that's you know, that's how I discovered one step beyond. I discovered it in syndication in the seventies and it sort of, you know, rocked me back on my psychic heels.

You know, whoa what is you know?

What is this?

You know because I ended up seeing it. I was a young insomniac, you know, by the time I was in middle school. You know that this show would appear at two am and what you know, what is this?

You know that this this is amazing? You know, it was so scary and seemed to, you know, just.

Exude so much you know, creepiness and menace and and it seemed to be you know, literally transported out of.

Some sort of nether world.

You know, before my eyes, and that's how I discovered it. But you know, it very quickly moved out of syndication, I think by the eighties. And now, as you said, there you know many their ninety six episodes, but I think onlyde the sixty are actually available on DVD, and they're all you know, one step beyond its fall into the public domain. So these are all sorts of you know, they're not remastered things.

These are old prints you know, that have.

Been found at you know, local stations around the country.

So you know, we don't have a really good you know.

One step beyond collection, no definitive one step beyond collection, which is I think unfortunate.

Well, and this is also bad news in a sense because it had had it not fallen out of public domain. The good news is some company would have gone ahead and restored them and really done a great job. Yeah, it would have cost something, but you still would have had almost all of them preserved.

That just didn't happen, did it.

No, it didn't. It didn't.

The if you look at some of the DVD collections, you can see where like the film ends abruptly in a scene. And I actually got to ask John Newlan a little bit about that because I was even watching old prints when I on video when I saw it, you know, when I was reviewing them all for the book, and I said, you know, this scene seemed abrupt? Was that you know with that because the film was damaged

All right now, I just want to I want to be fair about this. A couple of things, folks. John's coming back. He's going to be on the twenty seventh for the ten pm to midnight Eastern Time show that Adam Gollrightley's going to co host as well. We're calling at the Young Tamed Grass, you know a little hybrid of both our shows, The Untamed Dimensions and also Beyond the Grassy knowl. So he'll be uh, he'll be in on this. John's coming back to be with us for

A look with all he has to offer because we're goin to get into all the.

Other books he's written, and you know, any and I would think John, would I be correct in saying this that we would welcome anecdotes from folks across whatever genera generational line as to you know, their favorite producers and shows, you know, like Wes Craven, you know the Fripp and aera stuff and all that.

Absolutely know.

I love to talk to the horror genre TV or film with with anyone who loves it.

So I'm looking forward to it.

All right, And that's gonna happen Friday. And again, the website is John tannethmuor dot com. His books are all up there. John didn't I didn't follow through. But somebody is handling your publishing.

Is that true?

Yes?

Yeah, McFarland is Mike Farland right here, Okay, Yes, that's right. Yeah, they're the ones who released the One Step Beyond book.

That's right, all right? And you're okay because.

You know Amazon and some of the other online booksellers, it gets a little strange with some of the authors, but in this situation, I mean, you're fine with that and going to McFarland.

Is just right. With you.

Is that is that great?

They can go to mcfarlande or they can go to Amazon dot com.

That's fine.

All my books are are all right, Amazon or Barnes and Noble, you know, and any any web bookstore carries my books, and or they can go to the McFarland website.

That's right all right.

And again, folks, if you get a chance in between when you hear this on Monday and between well that those fourth days or so, you know, until John was back on Friday, you know, please by all means take a look around.

There might be some of my you know, pitch your fancy for sure, and also.

Come on with whatever you might have to recount about, you know, your days with getting scared, when getting scared was kind of fun.

Anything else you.

Want to hit, By the way, about the website so that I'm not remiss and telling folks the resources that.

Are there, no, you know, I think you got it all you can.

If you go to my website at www. John Kennethy or dot com, you can see pictures of all my books. There are links to my blog, and there's also a link to my internet TV series which is Black.

And White Key.

There you go.

It's called the House.

Between all right, you can see the whole scope of my work, from my website, from blogs to my internet show, to to picture and excerpts of my book.

And if you don't mind, in this second half hour, would it be okay if we go into some of the shows that I ranked as my Letterman top ten.

I would love that.

Yeah.

And you know you're being nice to me by saying my memory is so good. But at this stage of my life, I can probably remember what I did when I was two, but I can't.

Tell you what I ate last night.

But seriously, and you and I said this off Mike too, and that is this is an indication about when when you are when you're young, and I'm thinking, obviously it was eight, nine and ten.

I mean that's the extent of it. I was no older than ten when.

This show left the airwaves, and I remembered. I mean, it's seared into my brain, there's no two ways about it. I won't say that it was a nasty and ugly any kind of traumatization, but it has to be understood. You know when you were, when you're young, and your brain is an open book or whatever. Some of these experiences that you have that do definitely radically shake you up.

Well, I think that you know, things like that, I always say that they carry psychic weight, or they loom large on your brain. You know, your brain at that point is very impressionable, and this is often the first time you experience something of that nature, and so the you know, the weight of it is just amazing and you always remember it.

You know, it's a I mean, I know I certainly feel like that about.

Influences in my life.

And it's funny sometimes.

The good thing about One Step Beyond it's really a good show and it stands the test of time.

You know.

I remember when I was a kid going to see a drive in movie called Legend of Boggy Creek.

And it's a.

Horrible movement, but you know it scared me when I was a kid.

But you went a horrible movie.

Well, let me ask you this. Did you drive to h did you drive to the drive it?

Yes?

Well I was. I was driven to the drive in with my folks.

Oh no, because I was gonna say, if you drove and you probably had a girl with you, eat and give a damn what was on his screen.

I was too young for that. I think that's I missed.

Unfortunately, I can't remember too many driving movies I saw.

But anyway, all right, the ones that I remember, and I think some of them are in the forefront because they seemed well, they definitely had a documented kind of support. And one of them, and that's one of the interviews that we talked about that gave credence to the show, the one I had listed first, and I'm not sure I'm going into the best of the least.

I just did them. And that was a show that was about people having precognition about the sinking in World War Two of the HMS Hood and what Newland did. And I had asked you about this.

They interviewed somebody who was supposed to be on that ship, and that turned out to be an actor who also made the rounds in those days, whom.

You told me was Robin Hughes.

Is that correct?

That is correct, absolutely, So it was a British actor who was working in the sixties who actually had the experience that the episode was about you know, which is amazing.

The episode was from the third of what.

It aired on equal fourth, nineteen sixty one. It was called The Signal Received, and it's just like you said. It was about like precognition about the sinking of the Hood, and it followed three sailors in particular, and each one sort of had this experience, you know, about their deaths and the Hood. And one was like spiritboard divination, one was Claire Audio, and another I think was just straight old clairvoyance.

But two were negative and one was positive.

Two people knew they were going to die, and one guy said that he would I think he did. He was the spirit board guy said he'd lived a nice long life or something. And sure enough, like the episode ended, these three guys walking onto the Hood and the one guy gets pulled off. He got a transfer order and he lived a long and happy life, you know. And then fifteen hundred people, including those other two sailors you know, died when the Bismarck sunk the Hood nineteen forty one.

You know.

I was just I was shocked at jury call up to you you picked that one off immediately, and that you remembered all the details of.

It, and the use was kind of person who got picked off, wasn't he?

Yep?

Absolutely all right, now there is something related to that.

You and I both went back around excuse me again, choking on water, and I got this little mixed up.

But then you know, you clear it up for me because I remember this one too.

I think.

Most people will be may have encountered this this story other places, but this is and I'm gonna throw this to you, this is the show they did on the titan.

Now, Keith, this is my all time favorite episode of One Step Beyond, and it.

Still drives me crazy.

And what it is.

It's about sort of the psychic web of happenings that surrounded the sinking of the Titanic in nineteen twelve. And one of the things I talked about was a Canadian minister who changed the hymn that night at his church for no reason, to pray for those in peril on the sea, you know, And then there are things like that, and you know, in fact, there was a professor at university of Virginia who had collected like nineteen reports of the paranormal all associated with the Titanic, and I don't know,

Eight, fourteen years before.

The Titanic sinking. And I mean, that's just the tip of the iceberg.

You know, you'll forgive it about the rotten plum, I'm so sorry, but let me just tell.

You know some of the other similarities in Robertson's novel.

Of eighteen ninety eight. The titan was seventy thousand tons, that's how much the ship weighed. The Titanic was sixty six thousand tons. The titan was eight hundred feet long, the Titanic eight hundred and eighty feet long. Both ships had a top sailing speed of twenty five knots. And the most bizarre thing is that both ships struck icebergs and sunk on a night in April.

I mean, to me, that just gets me.

Every time I did all this research onics, I thought he is making that up.

I thought, there's no.

Way that's true, and I followed a couple of false leads. But then I found it is true, and the book was actually republished I think maybe in nineteen ninety seven, when that's when Titanic sort of nostalgia he t used that word was popular again with James Cameron films.

All right, but I mean, this is actual true somebody wrote.

A book that forecasts with all those details, the thinking of the Titanic. It was just called titan I mean, it's it really boggles the mind.

I mean that that's a tough one to argue with. How did you know? You know?

Right right?

I mean you know one or two things like that, I say, coincidence. But you placed it in the same month with the same problem with lifeboats, with the details of the ship being so similar. I mean it, you know, it certainly raises questions.

Do you know anything about and have you aught to say?

It was Robertson, Yeah, Morgan Robertson was his name.

Do you know anything about him?

I don't. I don't. I don't know much about him.

You know.

I went back and said, I.

Followed some false leads because there was some book I found in the eighties that had the wrong title for the book and had the wrong author. So I thought, okay, that's one thing against it. And then I went back to a Collier story from the late eighteen hundreds that was supposedly this story, and it was not. It was one called the Liner and the Iceberg, but it was about like an old trawler ship I think named the Amelia or something else. So like, none of the details

But I don't know the biography of this author.

Okay, you have no idea if he comes from the UK, do you he does come from the UK? Yeah, all right, we won't get into that, but we all talk from other time. Right.

Secondly, well, I had written to you again on one that was based on fact it seems, and a story not necessarily unknown to a lot of folks, and that is Lincoln's dream of being assassinated and viewing his own funeral in the White House.

Right right now.

This was a one step beyond episode from nineteen sixty in the second season. It's called The Day the World Web, The Day the World Web, the Lincoln Story, and very much like the Titanic episode, it involved sort of all the psychic phenomena around the Lincoln assassination. For example, a printer in East Pennsylvania hammers out a headline in the episode, like hours before the assassination that reads Lincoln margret National tragedy.

Was in the White House.

He described these dreams to members of his cabinet, So there is eyewitness testimony that he had those dreams, and one dream involved him awaking in the White House to sounds of weeping and he asked to Guard what's going on, said, the President has been killed.

And that was just one.

He had another dream early in his term where he saw two images of himself in the mirror. In a one, his face was completely normal. In the second, it had this sort of death like pallor across it, like he was looking at himself as a corpse. And his wife, Mary, who really believed in his dreams, said to him, she said, what this dream represents that you're going to be alive and healthy through your.

First term, and you're going to be killed in your second term, or you're going to die.

In your second term. I think that's probably one percent. I think she said you're going to be killed. I think said you're going to die in your second term. So it is documented fact that Lincoln did very much fear for his own death and had dreams of his death while he was in office. And that's another one of the great one step beyond the stories.

I would say, no, it was again, it.

Was well done.

And this is just a quick plug for folks who want to realize just what Lincoln knew with regard to the enemies that surrounded him.

There are two good books out there.

One is called a Lincoln Conspiracy by think Boldinger, and there was another one called Dark Union by I think it is Ness and Gutteridge, and they will show you just exactly what he knew he was up against. His precognition may have been based a lot on what he rightly should have feared, right but.

That's, you know, my little conspiracy political plug, and that's what the show is about.

So I'll move Well, have you ever heard of the theory of retro synchronicity.

Well, we might, we might have called it a bunch of other things on the agression all but ahead throw that out.

Well. I came across as when I was researching the book, and I just wanted to name it because you know, of course people could say it's coincidence, like people always do. But the theory of retro synchronicity is that Lincoln and Kennedy are basically connected, and it's their path follow the same course. Lincoln was elected to Congress in eighteen forty seven, Kennedy.

In nineteen forty seven.

Each man was killed by a bullet to the head in the presence of their spouse. The boats were warned not to go on the trips that killed them, either to the theater or to Dallas and their assassins. Wilkes Booth was born in eighteen thirty nine. Lee Harvey Well in nineteen thirty nine, and then the name of kennedy secretary.

Of course was Lincoln Lincoln.

I don't know if there's anything to that, but something about that just fascinating me.

I can't help but.

Yeah, and there is there's even more to it, I would, I would say. But also sixty three was a pivotal year for both. I both definitely believe that Lincoln and Kennedy each knew the way things really, you know, what really runs the world, and there are handlers, and I think both of those presidents said, you know, I can't do this, and that was fatal for Lincoln.

Obviously.

It probably happened in and around visiting Gettysburg with Kennedy it happened beforehand. But of course in sixty three he was assassinated. Lincoln was assassinated sixty five. But both of those presidents were pretty much lightning rods at very critical times in our history. And yeah, and also I'm only going to throw this out to you.

I'll be able to in a later show, but just you know, to tweak you a little bit.

John, No, No, in the how should I say in the Classic Assassinator's Handbook, if you want to kill a head of state, the best way to do it, you know, in that protocol is a headshot. Okay, And if you take a look, you'll find that this, you know, look at or look at Robert RFK headshot. And I hate to say it, although Teddy's unassassinated, he's dealing with the cerebral problem right anyway.

Well, maybe there's there's no connection. I had to bring up that retros incranctation.

Oh no, not no, without a doubt. No, And it's you know, we don't believe in coincidence beyond the cress, you know, one of the other things I.

Had asked you about. Well, then, also I thought this is probably the one that gave me the eb gbs the most. The first two were just real, you know, you know, it just was real convicting. But this one, this one spooked me out and they did it very well.

And that was.

Now here's how I wrote it to you, and I think you have that in your book, and that is the ghost of a giant. This took place in Mexico who you know, kills like what I thought was an abusive soldier, like you know, whooping up on the peasants. How close did I get with that?

Well, again, you have amazing recall, because that's exactly what it is. The story you're talking about is called Persons Unknown, and it aired in One Step Beyond third season February seventh, nineteen sixty one, so you probably know where you were

Art critic and artists, and he did live in that convent.

Now there had you know, I was not able to track down anybody who could send me to a mold of a man stay with the fingerprints, so that may have been embellishment, but It's amazing to me that you remember this one, because you know, whenever I write books about shows, I think of sort of signature episodes like you know, you know, the Twilight Zone Joey's remember, or the Star Treks she always remember. It's like there's like maybe a handful in every show, a ten one like

Well if have you seen that that particular show at all?

Yeah, yeah, I got to watch it for the book, you know, and it's funny. I consider like the Lincoln or the Titanic one like ooh, those pop out at me. But it's like, you know, out of ninety six, I didn't remember the details of this one until you brought it up. Well, it really really is a fascinating story.

Well, they did it so spookily too, I mean, I mean, well I can't even recount it, but I mean the fact that it was it was desolate.

There's something invisible going on. Now.

The only thing I'll last you because you know, I do have a historical edge to me? Did that have to what do we know that that took place in the early twentieth century or did it take on what was that supposedly before? The reason I'm saying is because you had Maximilian's troops. French troops that were in there were definitely not liked by the Mexican people.

It was definitely in the twentieth cent all right, so that was you know, it was when doctor Addall was a younger man, so it would have probably been the early twentieth century.

All right, that we've been around the Buirez, I would believe, or via no Pancho Villa that would have been.

Well, you know what, It's interesting because people I don't know if I've said this before in the interview, but I get a lot of mail email about one step beyond with people asking me to help them corroborate their stories. And there are people who are interested in this episode who have tried very hard to get cooperation for this episode, corroboration for it. So you know, there are other people who are trying to track this down, like as we speak, all right.

That's good, I mean, but if we're in the twentieth century. Then it was probably around VIA's time, you know, VA's time. It was not had nothing to do with the French invaders. Okay, no problem.

You know again, I'm not one hundred percent sure of that. I just I'm pretty sure it's the twenty stenty just because of what demand's age.

Well, yeah, and you're right, because a guy was on was on the tube in nineteen fifty nine sixties.

Yeah, it would have had to have.

It would have older man, you know, it could have been back, you know, forty years or so, but it would have had to have been I think twentieth century.

No, you're right.

I mean because in those times too, there were so many overthrows of governments because the all seemed to get the spotic on the new Mexican people and for that gentleman still to be alive in you know, in the late fifties going into the sixties. It was definitely around the time of the and whatever dictator put in whatever kind of you know, government. So that answers that that that you're right, all right, now we get another one.

That's right, yep, that's that is an event from an episode called Where Are They which aired December thirteenth, nineteen sixty and it told two stories. In the first one, in this town of Chico, California, a rock started falling from the sky and a man who called himself the Ghost took credit for it in March nineteen twenty two.

Everything just disappeared.

And in terms of authenticially this was one of my favorite. Thanks to research, history records that from July to November of nineteen twenty one, rocks indeed fell from the sky in Chico, California for now explicable reason. A lawman named J. A.

Peck investigated the case, and the.

San Francisco Examiner reported on the situation in March of nineteen twenty two. There was a scientist, his name was C. K. Studley, who reported his findings and let me just quote those findings if I can. Some of the rocks are so large that they could not have been thrown by any

And I'll.

What One step On was talking about here, you know, beyond this case was the idea of some sort of anomalous phenomenon, and there was another instance of rocks falling from the sky in Charleston, South Carolina, on September fourth,

I agreed. Grammatically, yeah, no, agreed. But again, that's why we're talking about this because it you know, I'm one of the only people left I even have to talk.

To some of my parts back up in Jersey whether they remember this kind of stuff, because I don't even know if we talked about this then, because.

I don't know, you know, we weren't other things and Psycho was out and all this other stuff. But I got to go back and ask about that. Well.

Also, I'm going to say this, and I'm tweaked, but I'm gonna I'm gonna throw this up because it's provocative.

Folks.

Take to look and see what latitude Chico, California is on, and I'll tell you why when we get back together again, John on that Friday.

Okay, that's something I have absolutely no idea about that. I have no idea what that's about.

I'll breed deep the gathering glue. Okay, all right, now we go into one again.

And this isn't far fetch from what we're hearing about today with all these alternative situations and cars running on water, on hydrogen, on McDonald's grease and all this stuff. Do you remember the one where somebody went into a patent office and had some kind of pillar or whatever that turned water into gasoline.

Absolutely, Now that was the second part actually of this

You know.

I have asked and I have researched this. I have never found the event that this is about. And again I have to mention people email me. Someone emailed me just the last month about this particular case, and if anybody knows the specifics, I'd love to know it, because one step beyond didn't usually totally go off on a crazy tangent.

Usually there was some I've proven.

Some authentic story behind it. My problem, honestly, Keith, and was that I sort of came along with this book a little too late. I was able to talk to John Nowlan months literally months before he passed, in months maybe two or three months, but a lot of the writers of the show were already dead when I was interviewing.

You know, I was not able to get a whole bunch of one.

Step beyond interviews in the book because many of the writers and the producers were already gone, you know, some forty five years hence from the series or such.

So I don't I don't have a trail to follow on that.

Yeah, that's true.

You know, I'd be curious to know. You know, what was the basis for this? I mean, have you heard anything.

About that myself? No? What I did is though I told you that somebody had just emailed me.

But you know, you there. I'm sorry. I think I lost you there, hold on, can you hear me?

Yeah, I can hear you. Can you hear me?

Yeah? There we go, There we go. I'm sorry.

Okay, No, With regard to the Chico, California situation, ironically, somebody just emailed me from Chico, California about something else, And I've just asked a gentleman whether or not he's ever heard anything in lore or whatever that this took place. In fact, it happened in Chico, So I was hoping

Other, right right, all that they were on the air the same week, it was like within the same half of Mackerel. Yeah, they were sort of vignettes, you know.

Can you imagine those that those two do? Do it? And I didn't. I didn't even recognize them with a party and party?

Oh really because when you when you live, Yeah, I see that you have them on separate lines.

I thought, oh that's no, that's that's one episode.

Brother, I'm telling you, as straight as a heart attack, I had no idea that they were a part one in part two. Holyrel.

That that also, i'd say, is one of the signature shows that has raised the most questions. People are fascinated by the Chico thing because there are so there's so much documentation you can find out.

I mean, there's stories in the San Francisco Examiner.

You know, either you know there's a place to go, and I'm sure there's a place to go for the second story. But I don't know what I don't I don't, like I said, I don't have a trail.

Well, that bit about turning water in the gasoline real quickly. One we had somebody down here in Florida who could run a car on water and he wound up dead under well, the mainstream news wouldn't call suspicious circumstances, but you know, and also I had done a show with somebody out of Canada who was working on alternative gasoline substances.

Is that correct?

Yeah, that's right, and he had this.

But wasn't it the the way the shild left it was that he split before they came in and wanted to talk to him.

Well, it was just like he disappeared, like it was like he just disappeared off the face of the planet, like he never existed at all, you know, which made me now again't remember I watched these you know, ten nine, eight years ago or so. But my feeling at the time, I know this is going to sound ridiculous, was that he was like a time traveler or something.

You know, it doesn't sound ridiculous, you know, but I.

Mean that, you know that that was sort of the impression I was left from the story that he was somebody who maybe shouldn't have been there and shouldn't have been doing that, and so he was taken away. I mean, I don't you know, that was my impression at the time, and I may be misreading what my memory was from that time, but I remember stories like that fascinated me where they offered no explanation. Then I you know, you start, you know, your wheels start spinning and he start think.

Well, what could have been the explanation?

So all right, and then, like I said, this is not unusual though if you had been a straight up shooter of you don't mess with the oil oilg arcs.

They don't like that.

No, that's well, that's that's a fact.

Yeah, all right now the one that all so, it was extremely eerie.

But you know what, in certain other venues it is documented as having happened, and that was during World War One, a cessation of fighting, as those all throughout continental Europe claimed that they saw some light in the sky. And I'll just leave it there. How close am I am with with that one?

John, Well you remember that one as well, and you must have.

Been watching the show soon after premiere.

You must have caught on quickly, because that was only the tenth episode. One tip be it really called the Vision.

It aired March twenty fourth, nineteen fifty nine, and it told this story that occurred at twenty two, one hundred and thirty hours on November fourteenth, nineteen fifty nine, when French and German soldiers witnessed this glowing light in the sky and after seeing it, no one on the battlefield was willing to fight anymore, and then you know, this

And that's why I think what was happening.

Here, because there have been many times throughout the history of warfare, particularly in the twentieth century, when people have told stories like this. One possible explanation is what a psychologist called an emotional chain reaction, which is often described by psychologists and witnessed in the Vietnam War, where human beings basically send out emotional signals to other human beings

Nobody was fighting.

So I wonder if the idea of the vision is the same kind of story, the story of an emotional chain reaction, that perhaps it was just you know that it wasn't that the light was from heaven, but that that light triggered an emotional chain reaction, a psychic chain reaction, if you will, in the man fighting, and if somebody, I mean, I would love to hear if anybody has any information on that specific incident, because again he gave us a trail there, but I followed it and I

So we're going to run a little bit over an how are you okay with that?

I'm totally okay with that.

If you are, no, it's.

Okay because you know, again, like I said, I want to be generous with your time, but you know, this is such good stuff, and you know, perhaps i'm beat and time management.

But oh well, listen, I'm loving it, okay, in a great time.

So yeah, let's let's keep going.

The other thing is too, and I me post this again come Christmas time. But one of the things I you know, the thing about World War One is comparatively it was much more brutal and emotionally I think distressing to the populations because they did not realize prior to this war how recognized and how much more efficient killing technology had gotten. And so even though World War Two was brutal also and much more widespread, still the whole shock to I think the collective.

Human experience was extreme.

And I'm just wondering if one believes and such and I happened too, whether or not there was some kind of intervention back then. It said, are you guys sure you want to go on this tack? And probably the answer was like, yeah, we got to and so okay with Drew and here we go, you know, with World

Why do we have to do this?

Oh?

Can you imagine that? It really is moving? And I think I'll post it again.

I think Angie, who is affiliated someone with the show who has a block spot, also ran that. But it was just amazing when you think about the fact that you know they could go out and do this and then okay, after New Year's it's like, okay, back to killing right.

Well, it's heartbreaking, Andrea, Yes, it is what's happening today too.

Yep, And you know it's anyway. But anyway, that was a very evocative and long lasting show as far as it's it's it's an endurance in my in my memory.

Then this one, I don't remember a whole lot about, but boy, this one was really strange. All I remember at the end of the show with these streamers from like heaving like toilet paper enrolled that were dangling down to the earth. Can you help me out with this one, because boy, that one's really vague.

Well, you know absolutely, you know again, it's kind of funny because you picked, you know, out of you sort of picked ten that you remembered, you know, and as I said, there were ninety six, so you picked, you know, roughly ten percent, and out of that you picked about one episode that was about UFOs and only did one show and their whole run about aliens and UFOs. Okay with that was the episode, and that's from the second season. It's the fifty first episode which aired April twelfth, nineteen

And I don't know if I can pronounce this, but it's a.

Japanese town called Iowa Kei on October fourth, nineteen fifty seven. So it's interesting that there were three angel hair appearances between forty eight and fifty seven. And the one Step Beyond episode is describing the nineteen fifty three one in the San Fernando Valley. So yeah, I mean that that angel hair was a silky gossamer substance that seemed to

Did it see anything?

And again this is I'm trying to you know, you know rack my memory was it. I can remember a gentleman, a man who was like on some kind of little ridge and just like.

Walking through this like what in the world is this? I thought he was a pilot. Is that true? Do you remember?

Yeah, because what the episode was about, Encounter was about a pilot who was abducted, you know, ostensibly by aliens. Yeah, and then and then returned. But you know, you didn't see the aliens and there wasn't any.

You know, overt reference to them exactly exactly.

But I thought he had a fly boy, you know, leather jacket with their pilot, right, That's what I saw in my mind's eye.

Yeah, that's right.

You know what, I'm scaring me now.

I'm getting off the phone now.

And again, folks, we want to tell you what's going on. But this is John Kenneth's mirror.

He I don't know. He can typify himself. I would say that he.

Write he's a historian about horror movies and horror TV shows and that whole genre.

And one of the ones, the first.

One that drew me to him, was what he wrote all those many years ago about the show One Step Beyond Now on his website. There are numerous books, which none none of which are going to make anybody turn away because it's the stuff that we loved. I mean, I'm sorry, but you know that that was a dream and that was a time, and we just take that stuff up and again, John, anything you want to say about the website and the resources that are there, well, you know.

I always have jokingly said to my parents, you know, I want to make a living by writing about TV and film, and you know that that's what I ended up doing.

But the things that fascinate me are these things, you know.

I mean, if I'm to be brutally honest, the things that happened between you know, nineteen sixty and nineteen eighty in particular. I love the you know, very odd and luminous and creepy entertainments that came out of the sixties and seventies, and you know, so I'm very much devoted to that. But you can see I've done horror films of the seventies, horror films of the eighties, a book called Terror Television, which looks at all the horror shows

And I am so tempted right now, and this is not the time to do because we will have two hours in a few days to talk about a whole lot more.

And Adam go Rightley, a good guy from out in.

The coast, will chime in on this also because he deals with something like this. But actually, unfortunately the real terror that was brought by Manson.

Culs and other things. But I mean, it's all there.

But right now we're talking to John about his book and Analytical guide to Television's One Step Beyond in nineteen fifty nine and nineteen sixty one. And boy, I tell you what, pound for pound that show still look best. Yeah, I agree, I love it all right, we're getting down to the end of it. But here's one that, like the Ghost of the Giant in that Mexican scenario, that one got me a little bit, you know, that was scary. All the ones, like I said, I was convicted by

Can you set that straight?

You know, I think this is the only place from when there were a couple episodes of One Step Beyond about portraits and such, and it sounds, you know, I'm not one hundred percent I was sure which one that one, but it sounds a little bit like this one called Image of Death, which aired in nineteen fifty nine.

Actually again, it.

Was an early episode of the show, and it took place in France in eighteen ninety two. It was about this woman who was sort of a common woman and she killed a nobleman's wife.

She poisoned her.

And she became his wife. But she became increasingly paranoid about the fact that the place where her portrait had been hanging there was this stain coming up through it, and that like she began to see that it was the shape of skull or something like that, and like she just became increasingly deranged by what was there where her the woman she had succeeded where her portrait had been it just came out.

But this this skull came there.

Eventually she drove her herself crazy and died. Now that doesn't sound exactly like the one you're saying. I'm wondering if I missed the boat on that one. I'm not one hundred percent sure doing Okay, all right.

The deal with what you were just talking about.

I do remember that that she started to rub out the stain and you know, and it's hard to take on the features of.

A face and real quick. One of the things that reminded me of that show.

Although now that song is like so many years gone, I means thirty years and that was when TENSEC did a song called I'm Not in Love. He says he hangs a picture up because it hides a nasty stain that's lying there. And of course that's what happened I think in that show, wasn't it that there was a photo over this spot that sorted to take.

On some kind of countenance. Is that correct?

Absolutely?

It sounds like that song could have been written about imship death because it was. It was the portrait of the dead wife and Andrew was coming up that skull. Yeah, so all right, sounds exactly like it. That's funny, all right.

Well, you know who knows. But I mean, like I said, there are no coincidences on the Chriss you know. Anyway, next up if we could, And that's another thing I remember, and that is some kind of phantom jockey that won a race.

Yeah.

This was an episode from June of nineteen fifty nine called front Runner, and it was the story of a jockey's apparition, a man who was wrong. A jockey comes back from the dead and basically denies another jockey his victory, and then they find out like that jockey the ghost had died like a day earlier or something like that,

Yeah, that's not for whom the bill tolls.

Yeah exactly.

I mean that is just the class like one step beyond. I mean that, you know, that's the stuff that you know, you don't want to think about the mill the night, you know.

Yeah, now, this one pretty much has been dismissed. And the ones that I picked out I think also it would seem from the pattern that I've created, have been those that seem to have some kind of basis in fact.

Yeah, those seem to have been ones that really resonated with you. I noticed that when I went through that again, the ten you selected out of the ninety six were ones that seemed to be like the most true to life, real life where they had witnesses, where they had documentation.

Know what I mean?

Well, and also that that indeed things do go bumping the night right right, you know, And then.

You know, here's the evidence.

You know that you know, even back then you were looking to see if it was real and looking for that evidence. So that that that you know that probably the after psychology keeper and then.

We don't want to talk about that right now, do we. Well, and here's another one.

And you did state before we got on that this was the week the week wink and that is and it it seem such that somebody who's playing some kind of game, I don't know what game this would be, who took on the the I guess the familiar spirit if you would, of of the object he was in the game. Uh, And you know, I mean, you think folks about you know, playing board games and stuff.

So I should take on a.

Personage or whatever with somebody who suddenly turned into what I called a big game cat. And you did nail this one. And you think this one is a little bit you know out there too, right, yeah, I do.

You know, it's funny.

You remember it exactly right. It was a big game cat. I think it was a tiger. It was a story from January nineteen January nineteen, nineteen sixty. It was entitled Forest of the Night for that poet, that poem by William Blake, you know, Tiger Tiger Burning, And it's about a hunter who plays a game and it's a Chinese a cult game called Confucius's Book of Changes. So that's the game they were playing. And one hunter's icon is

Yeah it was.

And the guy who was the lead character in that was kind of like a smallish, you know, schlumpy guy you could smack around, you know, and then you can think, well, this is you know, you could see you know in the characters, you know, thinking that heres his chance to be something.

Feared, you know, right.

And that's another guy who has who appeared in more than one one step beyond episode.

I know he did. And he also made the rounds again in the fifties TV series Let Me.

See, I Think Fair.

I'm I'm an dig through the index of my boat, can see if I find out who that guy.

I bet you he has somewhat of an Irish surname like Shawn to see is something like that?

Going to page one twenty here first of the nine let me see h.

We have.

Ted's icons out of a tiger and Ted was Alfred Ryder and he was playing a character named Ted Ted Dolliver.

H So that's a gentleman rider.

Yeah, Alfred Ryder r y d Er.

All right.

I've been of people put in a search engine on IMDb.

They'll come up with a whole bunch of stuff. He did in the fifty sixty TV Well, I.

Was going to tell you, you know, because I'm a crazy fan of this stuff.

He was in a Star Trek episode called the Man Trap, and he was in an Invader episode but.

I can't remember the title. Love it?

Okay, all right, you're right.

He was in a lot definitely.

All right. Now, this one again I got as I thought back to it, you know, I gained a little more memory about it, and you can email it.

You're saying, well, a pens something, because this is what happened. It was a woman who was dead who saved her son.

Now this is another This is actually one of my favorite episodes in One Step Down two. It's titled Epilogue, and it was only the sixth episode of the series.

Again, you must have really started watching the show fairly early.

This was February twenty fourth, nineteen fifty nine, so six weeks then you were watching. Involved in this was a woman named Helen and her little boy Stevie, and together they became trapped in a mind during a cave in. The mother Helen died in the rock ball, but her son Stevie was alive. So the crisis apparition of Helen appeared to her alcoholic husband, Karl Archer was his name, imploring him to save their son. But the problem is, you know, this was attention of the episode. Carl is

Oh yeah, And again, I mean she was a very good looking woman, you know, you know again in black and white. I mean it looked like she had rown hair or whatever. But she appeared in so many things like seventy seven Sunset Strip and all this other stuff, and she was in that particular segment and I can still see her, you know, I can still.

See her in just certain frames of that show.

And like I said, that was a hard one for me to recall because I had written something to you and then I changed and they said no, no, no, no, this is what it is. And I can still see her an address and all that stuff. And man, you know, I mean I almost thought too, let me say this, you I thought she lifted a car off him, but it was actually she got him out from underneath rocks.

I think. So now again, remember I'll watch the episode.

That's all right.

That's where I gleaned from my notes. Although that sounds awfully familiar to you know. There was another episode of One Tip Beyond that might be a called Emergency now like it was just you know, it's called twelve Hours to Live about a guy, a husband who was in a car that went off a cliff and like they had to get him out of the car, you know, and that one might be the one you're thinking about with the car again.

And listen, I really appreciate your patience. I was hanging with me on this and a lot of this is, as folks should know, is being done, you know, extemporaneously, because that's the way we wanted it. And I don't know what it says about my malform brain, but it does.

It's something.

But these things are in there.

Yeah, episodes are in there.

And you know, I have a conspiracy site and I you know, and a lot of people say, well, let's you know, it's no, it's not theory, folks. The thing is, yeah, there was something in my lifetime where I wanted to take a look and actually say, look, something's not right here. I've got a lot of things in my life that I've encountered and it doesn't job with what we've been

I'm busy.

Well, it's fascinating if you think about it. I mean really, I mean, because obviously what this did was it's you know, there's a lot of validation and legitimacy in one step beyond for these things. You know, it's not saying this is hokum. It's not saying, you know, this is crazy. What it's saying is that this is a science we don't yet understanding.

Look, you know, prove it.

We cannot just prove it. We cannot.

But here we're going to chronicle it, and we're going to chronicle it as.

Accurately as we can with the knowledge we have today. And I mean, I think that's to me, that's something that is, you know, just extremely fascinating. And I can see why that would, you know, be something that would would trigger your mind into thinking that way, you know, I mean, it was a very open minded show. You know.

Oh, I'm sorry that.

John has a family and you just heard from one.

Of the right defend two year old boy Joel.

All right, you have two children.

I just have I just have one son.

He's two years Well, he'll be two years old in October. He's one of the lights of my life.

With what long? Okay, Well, I just had a premonition, you're gonna have a girl next.

Oh my gosh.

We want we want to have another cut child, and we really want a girl. So I hope that both here we go. All right, all right, I'm gonna be checking back in with you in about six.

Eight nine months.

Right.

One other thing, and this is really sketchy, and this the last one I'll pop on you.

Uh.

And that was there was some show where I remember Newman talking about by location, but I cannot remember the show, and that would be involved with somebody who was in two places at the same time. Where I do remember it is wrapped after the fact, which I felt very compelling. I do not remember the fodder of, you know, the story itself. Did you come up with anything about to buy a location?

Yeah, you know, One step Beyond did a couple episodes just sort of orbited around the idea of location. So I came across two one is called the Return of Mitchell Campion, and that's one you might more accurately think of as an out of body experience, I mean, which is technically by location, because the body seems to be

The epistection might be talking about his justice.

You know a third season episode in which a man falls asleep in church and it's seen there by all the townspeople, but at the same time that he's asleep,

And you have to speak to this because I know I didn't give you a heads up on that. But when we were talking about the Phantom Jockey, then you know, again these things are just emerging, which I think is a pretty cool process and I thank you for being involved in that. But there was one where there was a boxer also that got involved with finding some ghosts. There was a ghost in this stands I think was during World War two Britain. Does that ring a bell at all?

Oh?

Good lord, you were you are really good?

You know.

You know what I'm gonna tell you is that Charles Bronson.

Was in that episode How to Be a Boxer?

Right, I'm pretty sure.

Let me let me just I'm gonna check my inn.

That's okay. It was a ghost of somebody and he saw him in I mean, that's what's coming back.

He saw him in this It's called The Last Round January tenth, nineteen sixty one, and this is what I wrote about it in the book I Slightly Past his Prime. Boxer living in England during World War Two, encounters the ghost of another boxer, a former a famous former middleweight champion named Patty, who now appears only two fighters about to die in their ring. Although Patty's appearance is thought to be a hoax, they take a twit strange twist when four people distinctly see.

Patty sitting in the back row of the arena.

You remember that one too, Yeah, that's called the Last Round and it was the ghost Patty. I'm not sure who played him, but was it Charles Bronson was the guy who saw him was the boxer who saw him. So yeah, yeah, absolutely yeah.

And that one, you you know, was plucked out of center because of what you say spoke about with the Famom jockey. That one was just birth by itself, and there's others out there. The only thing I will say to you is that in the late eighties there were some one Step Beyon shows that were just being broadcasted by an independent station.

And there were some, and they kept rerunning them.

But I mean, that's the only goose I would have gotten with what I remembered from fifty nine to sixty one. And it's interesting from what you said, how many of those remembrances of mine were from fifty nine, sixty and sixty one. As I got older also, you know what I mean, right, and got more cerebrally perhaps developed.

We hope not always the case.

But you know, John, I gotta thank you so much for you know, just you know, dealing with me in this whole situation, but also because I was glad I found somebody who could harken back in time to a show. I still think that, like I said, was a p probably the best there ever was on TV.

Well, listen I have totally enjoyed this. I mean, this has been like a memory lane for me.

I have to say that, you know, it's been a delight talking with you, and also that it's just really nice to revisit one step beyond. I probably had more fun writing that book than any other book I did, because it took me out of my daily routine.

You know, I wasn't just writing.

About camera and goals. I wasn't, you know, I got to do this other thing, which is what I decided when I started writing the book that if John Newland went to all the trouble to try to showcase these ideas, these paranormal ideas accurately, then I, as a writer, had to take the trouble to actually try to determine if he succeeded or not. So I got to research psychic phenomena for this book, which is you know, not you know,

All right, And folks, also remember you'll be able to access the transcript of John Mure's conversation with John Newland, which is priceless. Also, and for you folks who listen to the show, who gets popped up in this but boohrick And that's another whole interesting situation. So by all means, go to that side, take a look at that, and also all the books that he is out there. Because John, you'll be back on Friday the twenty seventh, and we're

Is that correct?

That sounds great?

Boy? Yeah, that's it. There's no more of a fitting venue than it would be for a late Friday night.

That's great.

I can't wait.

All right, listen, John, thanks a lot again, I appreciate it. Thanks a lot also to your family for holding wraps.

Down on the young son. And you're gonna have a daughter and don't worry about it.

Thank you so much, kid, this with a laugh.

Thank you, Well, it ain't over yet and we'll see you in a couple of days.

Soun's good.

God bless you. I have a safe weekend.

Bro, God bless you too. That was great. Thank you.

Bye okay, bye bye