Malala Yousafzai

When do you think about your smallness in the universe? All the time. I think you know you feel Second how big the universe is. You know, are small and we feel small. We are not going to be able to do that. I'm Rachel Martin and this is Wildcard, the show where cards control the conversation. And to flip one back. You know, I have had titles and these introductions that I hear I'm introduced uh at a conference.

You know how famous actors or musicians will sometimes talk about how hard it is to lose their anonymity? Having every detail of their lives dissected and interpreted to fit someone else's narrative? It's the trade-off though for getting to do that kind of work, and they understand that devil's bark. But Malala Yusufzai never agreed to this deal. It was forced on her. After the Taliban shot her,

After the attack, she was put on this pedestal by the entire world. She was awarded the Nobel Peace Prize when she was She wasn't just a survivor, she was a hero on the global stage. But when does a hero just get to be a human, trying to figure herself out like the rest of us? Malala Yousafsaya's new memoir, Tackles that question. It is called Finding My Way, and I am so very happy to welcome Malala Yousafsai to Wildcard. Hi! Hi Rachel, thank you so much.

Round one, memories. I'm just gonna hold up three cards randomly. You pick, Malala. One, two, or three. Three. Three. Okay. What's a routine from your childhood that you miss? As a kid I remember I used to stand on a stool in the toilet in front of the toilet mirror and would start giving speeches about different topics. Did you really? Yes. And then in the mirror I would just sort of like imagine that I am speaking to people and I would just pick up a different topic every day.

So now that I'm living this real life of giving speeches at global platforms, speaking to people, leaders. It just feels surreal that as a kid I would have that moment to myself in the toilet. That is a good idea. Do you that's a memory that I have. Yeah. I mean that's a long time ago. So I'm putting you on the spot. But can you give me an example of a topic? Like do you remember something that you would Hold forth on in the toilet mirror?

Um, I mean in in our school, uh, you know, the the topics would vary from uh cleanliness is a good habit and we all should follow You know, I was like, Yes, of course. Oh, you know, what could we say in uh uh in opposition? Right. Um or d democracy You know, give a speech in favor of democracy. Kids used to do that. Oh wow. And uh oh why mobile phones should be banned in school. That uh that was a topic that uh also like came on later. Um

Assignments that were given in school, but you were so into this that you would practice at home. Yes. Yes. But а so the situation uh So terrorism started in Swat Valley when I was just ten years old. So my speech has quickly changed to speaking about wanting to speaking about the importance of girls education and why girls should be in school. So I also remember uh practicing those words as well in front of the mirror.

Yeah. We should just remind people, Swap Valley, you grew up in a remote part of Pakistan, which is a beautiful part of Pakistan. It's a wild thing to know that it took root so young in you, that desire to be a little bit more. Like I know, from my from my bathroom to the UN. Yes. That's an exciting journey. Few steps in between. Yes. Okay, next three. One, two, or three. I'm gonna go for two this time.

Two. What's a piece of advice you were smart to ignore? I have ignored many, many things. advice, feedback. When I was in college that's when I uh ignored advice because you know, if I had listened to the advice that my mom or other people had given me, I would not have had the college experience that um helped me grow and learn who I I am as a person. So my dad just wanted me to study and get the top marks in college, maybe run for some uh Oxford Union president's role and You went to Oxford.

Sure, yeah, we should just say yeah. But I I knew that I could uh come back to these textbooks any time. I c I could read them you know, at any point in my life. But

I am with friends who are my age and they're all doing fun stuff. They're going to events and I want to be with them. So I remember one day in a library I was looking at these books and uh thinking about my assignment and I saw my friends giggling and laughing outside and I said, You know what, I want to be with them so, you know, closed my book, went off

And uh I decided that I can uh learn better when I'm with friends. This is an exposure I have not had before. So in that case I ignored my father's advice. um there were um you know l events and opportunities where I was thinking about my mom and like what would my mom say. So for example there was this uh aerobics eighties aerobics theme party. You wrote about this in the book. I love this. Yeah.

And you know, I was like so excited. I said like, you know, we should go. But then when I thought about the theme and how would I dress up for it I said okay. And like what would my mom say? Because my mom uh is of the view that I should be wearing more of the traditional Pakistani shalvar kamis. Uh that's because what you know, the community expects us to be representing the culture.

Uh but, you know, it's then less about the representing the culture and more about the the men's misogyny who are judging you for what you wear. So in that moment I said, you know, do I want to be myself in this moment?

and have this experience that any college student um should ha should have a chance to experience. So yeah, I I you know, I put on the I put on this like bright yellow top and uh a lot of glitter on my face and uh big yellow earrings and Put on some sunglasses and a cap and uh I went off. Fitness superstar. Yes. Also, I just think people should understand it's not just that you were getting advice on how to live from from your family, which could feel oppressive at times. Um anyone online.

was was inundating you and probably still does with like why are you doing XYZ Malala? You need to be doing this instead and you're not setting a good enough example here or you should be doing this. I mean I have been hearing it almost every day and you know what I focus on is My work, um my dream for the world, which is that girls should have a right to education. Um it is it is hard to process all of that, I think.

In the end we're all humans and these things do affect us, so I'll be honest in that that you know, I have been affected by the comments in the past especially, but with time I have uh learned to cope with it and I just uh focus on the the work that I do. Yeah.

This is the last question in the memories round. One, two, or three. I'm gonna go for one. For one. Mm-hmm. What's the biggest risk you've taken? I think the biggest risk would be deciding to climb my college rooftop with a stranger. I love this.

I don't know what I was thinking, but I want to be this rebellious student. Yes. So I'm at Oxford, I'm in college and the stranger comes to me and offers that, you know, there's this ex exciting thriller experience that only the most rebellious college students are experiencing and is climbing the rooftop. So I remember like at midnight going up to the top floor and then you did not know this person. Mm-hmm. No, no. But you were just in a sense of

You know Carpe Diem, let's go. Let's be in college. And if being in college means climbing this roof with this rando guy, we're doing it. Yes. Exactly. Um you know, like one misstep and you fall off the rooftop like it's a disaster. But I but I made it up there and I was um so I was, you know, un under the bell tower and it was such a surreal moment. So I and I'm so glad I did that. And then I became an advocate for

So I would offer it to other students, even strangers. I said, Do you want to have this amazing experience that nobody else has had and only you get to experience it and you know, join me. Join me at at midnight. What kind of footwear did you wear for this? I feel like the footwear choice would be important. That's such a good question. Um so I wore sandals. This seems very, very dangerous.

At that time I was so insecure about my height. So I'm just five foot tall. That's it. Five foot. And uh I I would wear high heels, I would wear sandals and even if I wore boots, it would be with a wedge. Yeah. So Flat shoes were not for me. I had never worn sneakers. And you were sandals with a heel? Yes, I took that risk. Yes. Now I wear flat shoes. It changed for me when I met my husband.

So Asir he he's he's taller, so he's like much, much taller. And to be honest, like me in heels and me without heels, it made no difference. Then I said, You know what? It's it's fine. I think I'm also getting older and I need flatter shoes and and sneakers or Can we just tell women everywhere to stop wearing heels? They are not good for you. Just own yourself and be comfortable.

And don't use them to climb on roofs either, especially Malala. That is very risky. And now you've said it out loud, and I'm sure your parents were horrified to learn of that, honestly. Yeah. There are many things you you l have lived through so much and so much risk. That was The real restaurant. That was self induced.

Let's talk about your book, Finding My Way. This is a beautiful book, Malala. It is centered around your time at Oxford. When you were in college. Because as you said earlier, this was this was really the first time that you you got a sense of Of of freedom and and like who did you wanna be in in this place for these years?

And you still had a lot of I mean, immeasurable pressure because you were going to college, but at the same time you were still working as this global education advocate. You were still giving speeches all over the world. And you were also dealing with PTSD from the attack itself. And you desperately just wanted to be a girl in college, like making mistakes and

Climbing roofs and living life. I love that you found such dear friends at school. Because you can imagine I mean, you do have this anecdote in the beginning, when you get there and You're like at this meet and greet mixer for new students and you've just met I think this is the right timeline. You've just met like this young woman. You're like, oh, I like her. She I feel like reviving. We could be friends. And then like there's a poster of you in the same room or something?

Yeah, so she was uh the first friend that I met at college. We uh were studying the same subjects, so I said hello and it was really nice. And then we were like uh exploring the different societies and clubs that were open for New students and figuring out who wants to sign up for what. And then there was this Oxford Union stall. Oxford Union is this famous debating society at Oxford. So um I was like, yeah, sure I'll sign up. But then on the poster behind there were photos. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker at the Yes, I had spoken there many, many years before and I said, Oh, this is a disaster. I just wanted to like disappear. I said, Oh like go, remove, like can I can I undo any of this? And just feeling so embarrassed and I was like, Oh sh this friend is gonna leave me right now But she was supportive. Um yeah. She d you know, like I think for me I knew that she was the the right uh friend

uh and and all the other friends who I made because they um they they just wanted us to talk about college stuff. Totally. And the next assignment and let's get groceries. What are you doing tonight? And it was nothing about uh you know, what happened to you when you were attacked, or what was the Nobel Peace Prize like? None of those questions and that's why I found uh those friendships valuable and I will treasure them forever.

Yeah. I mean they were and they were there um when you would make mistakes. Like everybody who is in their late teens, early twenties. when you have in some instances, I hope it's okay that I say this, um, you would be out late or you would be brokenhearted over someone or even once You you took some kind of substance, a you thought was maybe more benign, you thought it was maybe pot and turned out to be something worse and had like a whole panic attack, and your friends were just like

It doesn't matter how famous you are. We are just here for you. Yeah. Through all of these things. Yeah. So I remember when I had uh the the Wong experience it triggered the whole uh Taliban attack. Yeah. Um, you know, visuals right in front of me. I felt like I was reliving that moment. So it you know, it was flashbacks. It was flashbacks. Time froze, like eye froze.

And then after that I started uh having panic attacks and all of these things I was experiencing for the first time seven years after the attack. I just could not like process that, you know, I went through all of it and why am why do I feel so weak and fragile right now? Why can't I cope with it?

Um and th I remember in that moment how like my friends, so these college friends made sure that they were there for me. They would make me feel like things are gonna be okay. They even did sleepovers in my room. Didn't want to leave me alone. I mean, I could finally like close my eyes and and fall asleep and didn't feel scared. And then one of my friends actually suggested that I see a therapist.

And if she had not said that, I do not know if I would be in the same place that I am right now. She made me feel comfortable that it's okay. No. It was offered initially at the around the this this you know, the the bullet recovery time, but um I sort of rolled my eyes and I said, a question like, so how are you feeling today, gonna help me through this? Right. And I wish I had received therapy a lot sooner than You got it. Yeah. But I got it and I'm so grateful for it. Yeah.

So um it's also the story this book about falling in love. Yeah. Which you mentioned, which is a beautiful part of the story, uh, because in that time frame, he wasn't a student at Oxford, but you met him through mutual friends in that time of your life. I mean, I was in love with Asher, so I knew he was the right one. He was handsome and funny and charming and he found me funny as well.

But growing up I had seen girls married off at such a young age and I d I just I just didn't like marriage. I didn't want to be married. Um, you know, child marriage is a big issue and it's it would just like scare me. Um of course but You know, I I was uh so I was doing my research, I was talking to my friends a lot about this. I was even reading books.

I was reading Bell Hooks and uh uh you know, Dolly Alderton and many others. Virginia Wolf, I'm like, give me an answer, please. Somebody give me an answer. Is this gonna be my undoing to like tether myself to this man? Yeah. And I spent some time with my husband. uh we were at Lake Flacid and uh you know the just w when I when I when I had these conversations with him and when I spent some time with him I knew that he was the right one. ताने गाट मैं It is a phenomenal book. Thank you.

Okay, you ready to do more game? Yes. Okay, this is round two. This is the insights round. Okay. Okay, three new cards. One, two, or three. What are you secretly obsessed with? I am obsessed with learning language. Are you? I like, yes. I like to learn a new language, yes. Wait, just like you like to learn uh you know, pickleball? Like you just pick'em up. What what are we what are we talking about here?

Um so uh you know I I speak English Urdu and Pashto. Pasto is my mother tongue. Uhhuh. But I have been learning Swahili. And uh a bit of Arabic. So I just I like learning new languages. Yeah. Yeah. Just like in my own free time. I'm sometimes on Duolingo maintaining my streak. Why Swahili?

I you know, I th i if you ask somebody, they will always say like French, Spanish, German or something like that. And I said, I just wanna learn a different language. Like So I l I was looking up all of these different languages and Swahili is spoken in uh quite a few parts uh of Africa.

um in Kenya, Tanzania. So I said, okay, like that is a a a cool language. It's very cool. Like when you start exploring Sohali is very cool. It's a bit hard to to learn, but it's but it's very well structured. Once you learn it there's There's some magic to it. What does it open up for you in your imagination or w what do you love about it? I feel connection with the people. Mm-hmm. When you learn their language you You you you understand uh their emotions, their culture.

And there are phrases you can never translate into another language. And you know, we all feel that in our language. Um and I you know, I speak a Pasto language. Uh so th there there are things I can never translate, but when you learn another language And you can feel that instant connection with them because you can understand what they are saying and you could also communicate that in the same way. Yeah. It's it's it's the connection, it's closeness to to people.

Like you just say hello in their language and they immediately like embrace you. So I love that. They're like a w we're one now. Yeah.

Right. So you've tried this out? They speak Swahili in in Tanzania, right? And you Yeah, so uh so like we do Malala Fun projects in Tanzania. So uh when I went to Tanzania this summer it was amazing because um sometimes they would be like chatting and I could figure out what they were saying. That's when do you tell them that you understand so they can't talk?

No, you don't tell them immediately. No, you do not tell them immediately. Sort of like when they say something nice then you can acknowledge you said I I think I understood what you s what you said. I of course like when they speak they speak so fast that it's really hard to break it down. That I understand like a few words here and there. Right. But um but you know the Lion King, like it has a lot of sweetly words like hakuna matata and

Hakuna matada. I don't think it c I don't think I can say that instead. No worries. You guys just know the lyrics but I know the actual meaning. Okay. Next three. One, two, or three. What are you like when no one is around? I wanna flip it. Okay. Um I'm Comfortable. I guess is my answer. It didn't used to be that way. Uh I I lived in Japan. Out after college I went and took a teaching position in a really small town.

And I remember thinking about that question a lot. Who am I when there's when no one is around? Because I was so alone. I didn't know anyone. Felt very isolated in the culture. And um I was like, I just feel like everything's been stripped away because how much of ourselves is just defined in opposition to other people. And when all those people were gone, and I was just like a stranger in this strange land, I was like, who am I at my core?

And um I've lived a lot of life and I've gone through enough Ha ha. Mini existential crises, to know who I am now at my core. And I feel Content. Mm-hmm. And you? And me, yeah. I think um I'm usually at peace with myself when I'm on my own. I actually I feel like I'm everything and nothing at the same time. Quite a fascinating experience. But you know, I have I I it's it's really strange when you're also like defined by people for who you are. Right.

Um, I see my my bio somewhere and I take a moment and wonder i is this who I am? Or Is is my experience all that defines me? Is my education all that defines me? Or some titles and awards I have received all that defines me. But um I think the the you know, I feel like the person I am at heart. a part of that has always felt the same. I I c and and when I'm on my own I just take myself back to my childhood and wonder

if I still connect with that part of m of me. Mm. And there's something in my heart that I think has always been there. Always been there. That it there's a part of me that is is like very consistent and and constant, that it's been there. So you f like I feel the connection.

But I also at the same time can see the the change and the transition as well and in a good way. Mm-hmm. So I'm I'm grateful for the alone times I I have had, but I also realize that You know, the it's it's more the experiences that I needed and the college experience, getting that exposure to be with people of my age and be in these safe spaces where I do not feel judged by people, where I don't have to think twice about what I Malala Nobel Prize winner.

You can be silly and funny and you could talk about astrology and you can just say a random thing and people can laugh off. And those things have helped me grow as a person that um i I I truly value that. And Yeah, just like f feeling the love, feeling the immense love from friends, from my husband, um uh those things have actually changed me as a person. Yeah.

Okay, this is the last question in this round. One, two, or three. Let's go with two. What is something you think very differently about today than you did ten years ago? Because I became an activist at such a young age, I was asked about my opinion on different topics at the time.

I thought I'm supposed to have fixed views. That you cannot think differently. You cannot just like, you know, say, you know what, I changed my mind. Right. But I just thought that there was like one way of being a good person and that means you List like that your parents are happy with you, your community is happy with you, and everybody is approving you and you know you are meeting the the cultural and the religious and the traditional expectations.

That opinion of my changed, yes. But it changed because I saw more people from my own culture, from my own faith. Having different opinions. When when somebody who says, I'm from the same village as you, I have had the same experiences as you, or you know, I I have the same faith.

as you but I think differently and here's why. Yeah. That opens up your mind. So I have like uh in college I was meeting like Muslim people, some some would drink, some would not, some would cover their hair, some would not, some would um, you know, mind if it's pork and some would not mind or s some w wanted to like be open to dating.

Some were saying, you know what, it's I'm gonna let my parents decide. I don't want dating and any of that. I don't wanna have a boyfriend. And I said, This is fascinating. This is truly, truly fascinating how everybody thinks differently. And Initially, I would have said, This is right, this is wrong, but I said, Look, who am I to decide who's right and who's wrong? Like, have I put myself in somebody else's shoes and

About it. So, like it is truly a such a powerful learning experience when you try to understand other people's uh perspectives.

This is our last round. Okay. Okay. Okay. We can do it. Three new cards. One, two, or three. How do I know that it's like different questions? What if it's the same question? You are trusting me. But I promise they're all diff they're so different that like I look at them and I'm like, Oh, I really want you to pick that one. But if you pick this one, we're just going with this one. They're all different. I'm gonna Okay, okay, okay, I trust you. Okay. Number three, number three.

Also so bad if I like made this whole game and lied to everyone. I feel very very badly about that. Okay, number three. Where do you feel most free? U Do you know it's it's gonna be a strange answer. Okay. But I feel most free when I'm with my husband. There's something about it. Mm-hmm. That's it. That when he is with me and around me, I I I'm just more of myself and um it's maybe it's like a sense of safety, it's a sense of security and ease. Yeah. Uh it's just a mix of that. But

you know, when when I see his face, when I'm like doing a a serious event, it just gives me an immense joy. When I see him in a room where I'm just like talking to friends, it makes me just so happy and I and I l am more of myself. What this is so interesting because how you prefaced your answer, right? You said this is gonna be a strange answer, but I feel most free when I'm with my husband. And that reminds me of your original idea of marriage. Like you thought it was not going to be free.

You thought that this was the an institution completely defined to limit your freedom. And you found this person that unlocks your ultimate freedom, which is so beautiful. And I and I do want to clarify this that, you know, I still do not say that marriage is the right decision for a woman or it's the wrong decision for a woman. I think it's up to a woman to decide for herself. I think she knows best. Um and you know, I feel more free with my husband

I think it should be for for everybody out there. Like when you feel freer with your partner, you should know that you have m married the right person. You you are with the right person. Now like when I compare myself From the day of marriage to now, I'm I'm a completely different person. Asar has introduced me to sport. I I play golf. Who would have thought I play golf? I I go to the gym, I am doing weightlifting, I do like Romanian deadlifts. What? Yes. I don't really know Yes.

But attaching the word Romanian to it makes it sound really intense. Yes, I do these workouts and I can do like very heavy weightlifting. I am running. And it's because I remember like he would just say, Let's just give it a try. Why why do why you why do you think you can't do it? He says he told me that

Men are like not naturally good at any of these things. Men actually go and practice. They give it a try. They get this exposure. Girls are not given the exposure. They sort of assume that, you know, it's it's just for boys. Right.

So I said, Okay, fine but I remember those mornings when he would take me to the gym and I would just have this grumpy face and I'd give him this look like, Why have you brought me to the gym? I hate gym and he's like, Don't worry, you would fall in love with it in the end. And now now I'm in love with gym. I'm like, can you know, I'm gonna go to the gym, like, you know, if you wanna come fine, if you don't like In deadlifting, you know.

Do my thing. You know that I am pretty sure if you started an Instagram channel that was just Malala working out with heavyweight. It would go off. Not that you need any more Instagram followers, but I'm just saying

Okay. Three more. One, two, or three. Let's go with the two. What truth guides your life more than any other? I think seeing yourself in others is the truth that guides my life. I took a Taliban bullet when I was a child and since then I I just have one one truth in front of me, and that is no child should take a bullet for daring to be in school.

and no no girl should be left behind for daring to be in a classroom. And this is the mission that I now work for, um Yeah, I think it's it's just, you know, like w when you go through a physical pain yourself, you just do not want it to happen to anybody else. I have built values of forgiveness, empathy through that. I have become um More open to you know, uh understanding other people's emotions and um yeah, I just you know, it's it's just this dream that

Can this world be a peaceful place? Can we can we stop wars? Can we stop violence? And can children have a life in peace where they can be in schools and have Yeah. You said empathy and forgiveness that you've cultivated those since the attack. I hesitate to ask this because I don't feel like you there should be any expectation on you to forgive the people who shot you at all. But since you said those words, I wonder what that means for you and has it been a necessary part of your healing.

So, you know, I I cannot um process uh like harm for others. I think that is something that uh all my life experiences have taught me, like when you see violence and harm happening to others or to yourself, you just d you just want it to end. You do not wish it to happen to anybody else. And even if it means the people who harmed you, if forgiveness can be a pathway that can make a difference, yes, like I would choose forgiveness.

But at you know, for me like the most important thing is the future of other girls right now. So what I'm not saying is that we like normalize relations with uh perpetrators like the Taliban or or or accept them. Like the Taliban are now in control of the whole country in Afghanistan. Um I you know, I I I had a conversation with Afghan girls on Zoom and they were telling me how

They're learning in secret. They are trying to use these online platforms but the Taliban are are still threatening them. They do not allow them to be in a classroom. And it's it's been four and a half years for them. They they you know, they still have their dreams to to become something but they do not see a future under the Taliban. So That is where your empathy is applied to those girls who are still suffering.

I want to f I want the girls to have a voice, I want the girls to be heard. Uh and uh and that's why so I'm I'm part of this campaign that Afghan women are leading, and that is to codify gender apartheid. um in the Crime Against Humanity Treaty because they are recognizing what's happening in Afghanistan as gender apartheid. That it that it is a systemic oppression and um that the Taliban should be held accountable for that.

Yes, I think for me it's like forgiveness and kindness but also being more proactive in bringing peace, in sustaining peace and protecting human rights so that we um uh we avoid and we prevent these violations of human rights and uh we prevent the harm from happening. Right.

Your voice has been amplified. Through their violence, your voice actually got amplified and the effect got amplified of girls burning. Okay. This Okay. What of three questions? One, two, or three. Oh, I don't know. I'm I'm getting this feeling about the numbers. Do I like one? Do I like two? Do I like three? Go with it. Let's go with number one. Number one. When do you think about your smallness in the universe? All the time. That's so easy to answer. I think, you know, you feel small

when you look around, when you look at nature, you feel small when you think for a second how big the universe is. You feel small when you even think about yourself and and how complex we are. Um it It's it's just truly a fascinating uh experience and I I have met incredible people around the world, they have inspired me, I have met Gulf activists and when I look at the work that they are leading in Tanzania, in Ethiopia, in Pakistan, Afghanistan, Brazil, Nigeria.

it it gives me um this this reminder that we are all w working collectively for the change we want to see and we ourselves, you know, are small and we feel small but when we join hands we are We are very strong and we are more impactful. And isn't that a lovely I I cause I think about that idea a lot, like the smallness, the infinitesimally smallness of our existence in the universe and humans, you know, how how much are we of of time?

And for me anyway, the feeling of smallness is a comfort. It's like the it's like feeling individually insignificant is a comfort to me in some way. But I love what you said. But then the power becomes in collaboration with others. Like Yeah. Then the power grows and grows. And grow.

But there is comfort and perspective in knowing that Um you're not the center of the universe and that Things are ephemeral and they will come and they will go and you try to love people and make change where you can on your little patch of it.

We end the show the same. with a trip in our memory time machine. In the memory time machine. You revisit one moment from your past. Anything about You'd like to linger in a little bit longer. What moment do you choose? it would be my um

I always want to go back in time and spend more time in my school in Pakistan with my friends. With my best friend Muniba. I remember every moment um that I spent there, you know, we we loved our time in school, we loved our education, we you know, I d I just miss missed the giggles, the laughter. just talking about, you know, the the life ahead of us and uh and w just we know how lucky we we were that we could even be in a school and

Um like you know, w we would be like eating crisps and then we would want to play cricket and sometimes like badminton on the school rooftop and just run around and play hide in seeks. I know. Yeah, I have a thing for rooftops, yes. Um yeah. It it's my childhood memories with my friends. Yeah. Yeah. One time we went for this school picnic.

and we were in the middle of the the mountains and there's a waterfall behind us and it was just such a stunning, like beautiful place and My friend and I decided that we want to sing and we sang Taylor Swift's love story song together in front of our friends and our school teachers. That's amazing. And I yeah, I we had so much confidence. I don't know where that came from. But yeah, it's those moments that I want to relive, just re experience. Yeah.

I feel like Taylor Swift would be really flattered to hear that story. Yeah. Wonderful read. It's been a great joy to get to talk to you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much. Hope you enjoyed this conversation. If you'd like to watch You can do that on our YouTube. We are at NPR Wild. We've got so many of our favorite episodes there, like my conversations. Again our YouTube is at NPR Wildcard. This episode was produced by Lee Hale and Producer is Yolanda Sanguen. Talk to you then.