Robert Hilland: Chasing Evil

crime cases. This is about the choices writers make, both good and bad, and it's a deep dive into the unpublished details behind their stories. In nineteen ninety eight, FBI agent Robert Hilland was at a dead end with a cold case until he got a huge break from a famous psychic named John Edward. Hilland was a skeptic, but he's not anymore. They spent twenty five years solving crimes together.

Robert Hilland tells me the story at the center of his book, Chasing Evil, Shocking Crimes supernatural forces and an FBI agent's search for hope and justice. Tell me a little bit about how you got into the FBI to begin with. Was this a childhood dream of yours?

was there, I guess seven years, almost eight years. And during the course of my career there, I had met somebody who was in the FBI, a senior official who knew of me from you know, local stories in the papers, and started talking to me about joining the FBI. And I kind of dismissed it, thinking, yeah, I don't know that I want to do that, And over time I said, hey, why not. You know, I really enjoyed what I did, but it was a small department and I thought that

maybe the FBI could offer me other opportunities. I applied and I went through that process and I joined the FBI in nineteen ninety seven. I went through Quantico, graduated, and my first assignment was the New York Field Office, which was kind of home to me.

they recruit from even really small areas. What does it take to get on their radar?

are equipped to deal with those problem sets. Right. So, you know, back in the day, in you know, pre nine to eleven world, we were still while we were focused on terrorism and counterintelligence crime was the big thing for the FBI, and historically it was always former military law enforcement accountants to that kind of thing, lawyers, That

was kind of the staple for the FBI. It has now grown exponentially where we look for data scientists, We look for people in the IT world, people who can hack systems, people with diverse language skills, people who have an ability to think like the adversaries. We're going up again, So today's FBI is a lot more efficient and effective than we were years ago. You have to evolve, and I'm confident the FBI has and always won't do that.

So I was surrounded by I would argue the best of the best, and I had the ability to kind of be a sponge and soak in from those people their lessons while taking on these new cases. So it was exhilarating. As much as I love being a cop and responding to calls and doing that, when I first joined the FBI felt like I was playing in the super Bowl. It was excited every day. I loved it.

those have a different flavor to them. It's I don't want to say there were business, but you know, it's more about power, money control, but exciting. You learn how to work homicide cases and learn how to prosecute cases at the federal level. So I was working at different points over twenty cases at one time, and it was exciting and overwhelming. But to your question, when I was a cop in Jersey back in nineteen ninety one, October fourth, this man came into the police station by the name

of John Smith, and it was a Friday night. He came around ten o'clock. I was getting off shift and another officer was coming on and the guy came in to report that his wife was missing. Her name was Betty frant I had nothing to do with the initial case. I just remember when him coming in, kind of a nerdy looking guy. I saw the officer taking initial report.

As that case unfolded, it became very evident from the detectives you started looking at case, it's something nefarious had likely happened to her.

meets John. John is the opposite of her. He's a quite introvert, doesn't have much in the way of friends or social like you would say. He was an awkward kind of guy. They meet, he asked her on a date, and believe or not, within the month of them going on that first date, they get married. John was her fifth husband, although she married one of her husbands twice or really her fourth husband, and John told her that he had never been married that he was a bachelor.

He had never been previously married. So life was good when they first got married. They're living in Florida. They bought a modest home. It was a new home which literally next door to her elderly mother. Fran's life was good. She had her social friends, she had her workplace friends. Life was great for her. And she's got this new husband and she really enjoyed everything. And then ultimately John his contract expires and now he's looking for a job.

He's out of work. Fast forward, he's offered a job by one of his former bosses who's now up in New Jersey, a place called Keyesby, New Jersey, working at a industrial plant that made concrete products. So now John uproots and takes Fran all their new furnitures. She had bought all of her belongings put in storage, and now they moved to New Jersey, a place that she's never been and doesn't know anybody.

in the morning, comes home late at night. And then add to it, he told her that he owned the house in Milford, Connecticut, and he had tenants living up there, and every weekend he'd go up to this house because allegedly the house was in disrepair. So now here is this poor lady Fran with this new man, and she's got nothing going on. He's never at home, so she's growing more and more frustrated around there. One year anniversary, Fran is very frustrated with the circumstance. Nothing seems to

make sense to her. He's rarely at home, and he's sensing that she's not happy, so he says, listen, let's go on. We never really had a kind of a honeymoon, so let's go on vacation. So he takes her away to the Pocones, which is in Pennsylvania, a couple hours from where they lived, and while they're there. On the first day, Fran suffers a fall, legitimate fall. She fell coming out of the tub and she broke her hip,

all legitimate. But now she goes to a hospital, she has surgery, and now she's transported back to that condo in New Jersey. She can't walk. She's just had major surgery, and she's droning and meanwhile nothing has changed. She's lying in bed and pain, can't walk. He's gone all day. On weekends, he's going up to this house in Milford, Connecticut. Nothing makes sense. She's living in a furniture home with none of her belongings. The only thing she has is

the clothing and her personal effects. But she's more and more frustrated, and she's expressing these frustrations with her family. Her daughter says, hey, Mom, I'll come pick you up, come out and live with us in Texas. You know, don't worry about this her. In those conversations with a sister, her sister says, we listen, if you're not happy, maybe you should make the list of things that you want to talk to him about and confront him with these

with these issues. And Fran does that, so you know the list consisted of things like, Hey, I want to go see the place you work. I've ever been there. I want to go to your house in Milford, Connecticut. I want to go to the storage and see all my furniture that's in storage. I want to be a part of the financial the bank. I need these things. And she persisted on that. And the last time she was seen alive was Saturday, September twenty eighth, nineteen ninety one.

And what was significant about that day was it had been I don't know a month or more since her accident, and she was getting cabin fever. She wanted to get out, and she spoke on the phone with her daughter, and she said she was excited because John was going to take her to a Toys r Us if she ruarned the Toys r Us stores. They were going to buy a gift for Franz's grandson, Deanna's son. And so she's talking to her daughter saying, I can't wait to get out.

It's going to be great. And John walks through the door and says, I just went shopping and he comes in with a gift. He had no intention of taking her. So there's some kind of disagreement that happens, and Franz says, Tona, I'll talk to you later, I love you, and hangs up, and that's the last time anybody heard from her. The last time she has seen is that same day. She has seen leaving the condo using crutches, and there was another couple walking into the building as she is leaving

with John. One of the people that saw her was a paramedic and he described her face is red and blotchy and soul and almost like she had been hit or was crying or something. And that's the last time anybody ever saw of her. Now you have to understand her family was in daily contact with her, giving her encouraging words of support and conversation. After September twenty eighth, their calling and the phone's not being picked up day after day after day after day. Finally, I think it's

Wednesday or the following week. The daughter calls John at work and he answers the phone and she says, John, where's my mother? And he offers some hesitation, and then he says, I thought she was with you, and said, what do you mean she's with me? She couldn't walk, she couldn't drive a car. What are you talking about. None of this makes sense, And she says, John, something's wrong her. You need to go to the police. And John says, you know your mother wouldn't want the police

to get involved. You know she'll show up. I'm sure she was homesick and either went down to Florida or went somewhere. But nothing is adding up. And to the credit of the daughter and the sister, they basically called him on that Friday and said, look, if you don't go to the police today and report mom missing, we're flying to New Jersey and we're going to report her missing. We're telling they need to talk to you. So that's

how the investigation ensued or started. As it unfolded, it was determined that that house up in Milford, Connecticut, he had a common law wife up there that he was hiding from her. All of her stuff that was in storage was not in storage, but he gave it to that of the wife. So all of his lies started to unravel. They did a consensual phone call in which

the woman up in Connecticut, her name was Sheila. Sheila pleased with him on the phone and says, John, look, I love you, I'll stay with you, but we got to work this out. I've got an affidavity if the search for and says you were married to another woman named Janice Hartman. Who is she? She's confronting him and she pleased with him. She says, let's do the right thing. Let's help the police find Fran and find Janice. And he says it's too late to help them. Now, it's

too late for that. He admits that he's applied to the police. He made a lot of incriminating statements, but nothing that rose to the level where they can bring a case against him, but certainly suspicious. And then as the police spoke with the family members of Fran, John had represented to them that he had never previously been married. But when John spoke to the investigators, he reported he was married to woman named Janis Hartman years ago in Ohio.

So there's a huge inconsistency. The investigation continues and they identified Janice Hartman as his first wife, who disappeared in nineteen seventy four in Ohio under almost identical circumstances, never to have been seen again. So now that got a guy married to two women, both who disappeared, no bodies, no physical evidence, and it's very frustrating.

that's going to be a problem. And I think what happened in these women's cases, they started bringing those worlds together and he had to control that.

The similarities between the women or were remarkable. You could see it, and I think that people would say, I know, people would say, I never quite understood why this beautiful, attractive woman would hook up with this guy. They were opposites,

you know. So, but John had this thing, and the best way I can describe it, he had this ability to whether it was it the workplace or social situation, he could kind of survey the people around him, with the women particularly, and he could kind of figure out the one that was kind of off to herself, or he would identify, I don't want to say a higher riskpectum, but in effact that's what they were, and speaking with them, he would identify the things in their life that was missing,

that was lacking. So for some women through the years, it was financial, for some, it was religion. For someone was love, for some of it was sex. He became those things because when I talked to all these women over the years who knew him, were my relationships with him? They would say, Asian Hill, And you don't understand. When I met John Smith, it was like God had heard my prayers and send him to me. He's a chameleon. He's that guy that can just He's adept at playing people.

He's very good at that.

you know, is out why they were with him? But outsiders looking at them, who know both women said, you know my mom or Janie. They had everything going for them. They had this energy about them, and the connection between them and John didn't seem to make sense.

John worked as an engineer. He built aircraft engines. He was an undercover FBI agent. He worked for the CIA. He worked for a company that interpreted the Dead Sea scrolls. He was an archaeologist. There was one story that he claimed that he installed the turbo charger at the Indy five hundred race where some guy named Andy granat Telly

won in the sixties. John would have been like ten years old when this happened, but he told these elaborate stories to make himself look and feel important, and I think I think some people believed him and thought, Wow, this guy's amazing, and a lot of people said, this guy's this guy's not honest.

are mental health issues, emotional issues. I think she had experienced some trauma early in her life, and her personality as far as living in these grandios life with these stories was much like John. So when she was pregnant with Michael, father Carl enlists I think it was during the Korean War or something or Vietnam, and to get away from her and divorced.

always motivated by material things and financial game. I think Grace was looking for a man in her life, and I think she started dating men and ultimately she remarried. And she married a man named Sam sam Mull who just by circumstance, he was a survivor of the concentration camps as a young boy. Sam was Sam was a very successful businessman in Ohio. He developed real estate, townhomes,

apartment complexes. He was very successful. So Grace marries him and over she goes from Povery to drive a Mercedes Benz. John up until that point was always kind of like the man of the house. He did have a strange relationship with his mother, nothing to suggest it was sexual and nothing of that nature, but it was kind of like this Anthony Perkins thing where he would refer to his mother and she spoke to him like he was an adult. So I think it was that dynamic going on.

Poor Michael. Michael was never treated very well by the family. He was really kind of taking advantage of and really never taken seriously. And then ultimately Sam and Grace have another child named Steven, who was born years later. So that's John's upbringing. He graduates high school. He ran track in high school. He was a good student, very smart, kind of nerdy. He went to college for one semester Ohio State, and it's unclear if he dropped out or

failed out, but he never completed college. He worked as a handyman. He worked all these different jobs. But John was a con So John would create resumes where he had an engineering degree from Ohio State in aeronautics. So his whole resume, his whole background when he on his resume was a lie. Everything about his experience was a lie. But he could pull it off. He had this ability he was a very smart guy in some ways. You know, his bosses that I talked to would say, hey, he

was a great worker. He had the ability to kind of look at a machine or something that was working and kind of take it apart and then put it back together better than it was. So he had that kind of ability, and he had the ability to sell himself as more than he was. And then so when I pick it up, I've got to go through twenty five years of investigative efforts and now try to shake out new opportunities, which wasn't easy. So that was quite an undertaking.

no bodies nobody knows what this guy is. And if you don't already know this, John Smith is the most common name in the United States. And this is before the days of technology, where those searches were more manual than they are today, more paper driven. So finding him was quite a task.

What would those keys be in the seventies other than she would never leave her children or her mother's dying, and she would never not call her mother kind of thing.

Janis was one of I think seven kids. You know, her parents were divorced, and she kind of, I don't want to say raise herself, but she was kind of on her own from the early age, and she would hang out with their friends. I will tell you that the evidence does show in the case, in the timeline that John was starting to abuse her physically and otherwise, and she was the one that initiated divorce, that petitioned for the divorce, and even though what had become finalized,

he started stalking her. There's testimony to the specifics of what he was doing and stalking her, but ultimately not that she didn't have a family that loved her. Of course, they were all concerned about her. But the irony is when she disappeared. It was I think seven days after the divorce became final. John Smith was the one that reported her missing, and he said, my wife was missing.

I'll just say this, without trying to sound too critical, I think the initial county Sheriff's office of Wayne County, I don't think they took this very seriously. I think they probably perceived it this is a young girl who just took off, a runaway. She's a young girl. Yeah, and so I don't know that a lot of effort was put into it on the front end, which made him getting away with it even easier.

the first thing she ever owned. After John reported her missing, one of the sheriff's officers drove past a trailer where John was living and saw the car in his driveway after she had been reported missing. But I just think there were a lot of missed opportunities initial case, and

I think that was realized. Fast forward to nineteen ninety one when Fran went missing and the detectives from Jersey contact at Ohio and they started looking at the similarities and they went, oh, man, there's problem.

She's got family in Florida, Texas, and Indiana. She's talked to me repeatedly. She wasn't happy, and I strongly suspect she she took off to go see one of them. And then his story started changing. He started describing she left them a note, but then there really wasn't a note. And of course, in ninety one, before the cell phones are what they are today, where everybody has one, what did they do? The investigators looked at all means of transportation, planes, trains,

and automobiles. Did she buy a ticket anywhere? Did she get a taxi anywhere? Her cars were still there. When they went to the condo to search the condo, all of her effects were there, all of her clothing. Friends, she always wanted to look good, so all of her cosmetics, all of her perfume was there. Her toothbrush was there, her eyeglasses were there. Everything that a person would need

was still there. So it just didn't add up. And then, of course, when they found out that John has this other relationship with another woman in Connecticut, it just added to the mystery and the deception. His stories just kept falling apart. And when a story would fall apart, he would get confronted with it, he would come up with another story. He would keep changing the story. And I will give credit to Fran's family, the sister and the daughter.

In the ninety one they were dogged. They traveled on their own expense to New Jersey, spent time with him, got flyers, tried to find clues for the police. They I think their efforts drew more intention by the investigators that something was wrong.

everything and nothing they find nothing. Wow, you look at the timeline, and I argue that if a jury were to be presented with the timeline and the facts, you know, they would see what took place here? But there was no body, and as you know, prosecutors very reluctant to move forward out a body, so that's what happened.

other victims in the mob cases weren't victims. They were, but it was different.

was a relationship of convenience for her. They were sharing a house, they had a couple of dogs together. It was a convenient relationship for her that they were sharing expenses. I think it wasn't necessarily a romantic relationship for a woman in Connecticut.

old when I tell the story. There was a form we would fill out when you were trying to find out some information on somebody, and you would fedexit to Butte Montana, which was the FBI's repository of all their stuff, and they would based upon the name and date of birth, they would search their records and they would get hits

and they would send you a box of records. The problem the name here was John Smith, and in an overabundance of caution, what the FBI would do is they would send people with similar names or similar data base of birth. So I'm not joking. Were one day I'm in my office and is knocking my door and there's like four or five guys in the hallway with hand trucks with boxes. So John Smith is one of thousands of these files. It was a needle in a haystack

trying and it was overwhelming. So I was trying to go through that, but I was always also trying to figure out other ways to figure it out, and eventually I did.

her about him and their life together. But the key and how I found him was at some point in I think it was nineteen ninety five, John was arrested in Ohio on a silly charge of driving with a suspended license, And when they brought him in and questioned him, in his possession he had a little wallet sized photo of an unidentified a woman. So when the cops asked who was this woman, he said, it's my girlfriend from New Hampshire, and he wouldn't reveal her identity. So now

years later, I've got this photograph. When I looked at the bottom of the photograph, it had that little trademark said Glamour Shots, and I blew it up. You know, I knew it was New Hampshire or girlfriend. I sent it to the studios up there, and through a lot of work, I identified that woman. She cooperated and ultimately she identified where he was. And unfortunately, at that point

he had been remarried. He remarried it again to a woman in California, re established himself out there like a chameleon. I had this whole new life, and now we're very concerned. There is a you know, there's a sense of urgency. Now is this woman in harm's way? So that's how we found him.

the cops come talk to you, this is nonsense. Don't talk to them, don't answer their questions, and lo and behold when the cops would go No, nothing was gleaned. So what I decided to do was in May on May fifth of nineteen ninety nine. By this point. I had surveillance on John and I knew his pattern of life. I knew everything about what he was doing. I knew he came to work very early. So one day when he arrives at work, I intercepted him and I took

him to a hotel room. The room was stage and set up, and there were cameras in next door or two profiles from Quantico. But what I did differently was I had identified all the people in his life through all the years, from the seventies to present time, who

I felt had a piece of this. And once I had John Smith in that room, around the United States, fbis and detectives interviewed everybody in his life the same day and the same time, and as those interviews revealed information, it would be funneled next door to the profiles, who would then pass it to me. So I spent I don't know, from seven in the morning till about three thirty in the afternoon interrogating Smith. That's a whole story and

of itself. There was a time when he nearly broke and he got emotional, and he almost you could see it. He started making very incremating statements. I feel responsible what tappening to these women. My life is a nightmare. I don't know how the nightmare. I don't know how to make this nightmare end. He started talking like this, and then he caught himself, and then ultimately he faked a heart attack to get out of the interview. But as a result of that, the following week, John's younger brother,

Michael Smith came forward. Michael cooperated and Michael told us that back in the seventies, when Janice had disappeared, so this would have been nineteen seventy four when Janie had disappeared, it was around Thanksgiving and they were celebrating things to give me. The grandparents' house, there was a little like farmhouse and next to it was this little gas station

that was closed for the holiday. Michael was watching the football game and walked out and saw that the garage the doors were opened, and Michael walked in and saw John building a box. And he walked in. There's plywood, and he says, what are you doing. John says, well, I'm building a box. Mike says, why are you building a box? John says, well, Janie took off and she left them over belongings behind. So I was building a box to put her stuff in, and Michael says, that

doesn't make sense. Why we just get some cardboard boxes? And John says, just leaving me alone. Michael walks away. About an hour or more later, he looks outside, and now the garage doors are closed, and Michael walks over, and there were glass panes in the garage door. Michael pressed his face against the door the glass, I should say, and he saw what appeared to be a fully constructed plywood box, you know, four foot long, two foot wide

or so. And he sees John picking up clothing that belonged to Janice, and he's rolling him up and he's putting him inside this box, and John is reportedly crying. Michael doesn't confront him, doesn't say anything. That box allegedly stays in that garage. A week later, Mike sees the box nailed shut in the garage. It's sitting on the floor there. It stayed in there from November of nineteen

seventy four until May of nineteen seventy nine. And at nineteen seventy nine, John is now relocated to Indiana, which was eight hours away by car. The grandfather finds the box, summons Michael, and they discover that Janice had been dismembered in her body's in that box. Instead of contacting the authorities, they call John. John comes and retrieves a box and drives off of it. So now we have to find

this box. Through a lot of effort and a lot of searching, I was searching everywhere you can imagine, it was found that what John did was he drove back to Indianapolis nearly eight hours with this box with his wife's membered body in it, and he stopped along a rural road and threw the box down a hill like a ravine. The following spring, which was spring of nineteen eighty, a road crew was fixing potholes, found this box, opened it and found the remains. She was buried as a

Jane Doe. So once we put all the pieces together, we exhumed the body, did some DNA analysis confirmed it was her. So with Michael's testimony and everything, we went to trial. He was convicted for Jenesi's murder and that's why he's in jail today.

and I got nothing. One of the detective sergeants I was working with, by the name of Brian Potts in Ohio, he wrote letters and mailed them to all of the medical examiners and sheriff's office in Ohio, Michigan, and Indiana, and by I say, divine intervention, one of the letters landed on a sheriff's desk in Indiana who was a young deputy was called by the road crew saying, hey, we just found a box on the side of the roads.

When he got the letter, he said, oh my god, I think this is the box from twenty years ago. And then he contacted us. That's how it was made.

I done the right thing years ago? But in his defense, the grandfather was a very strong figure, and Michael said, hey, Grandpa, we gotta contact the Sheriff's office, and grandfather said, no, the only person we're calling is your brother John. That's it.

very cynical guy. That's my nature. I am a skeptical guy. And this guy came in the radio, and when I heard him, I shut the radio off because it was so silly. And the guy who was invited guests. His name was John Edward. He claimed to be psychic, and his thing was he claimed that he if he took a call from you, he would have the ability to connect to your past level one, so he callers would call in. He started doing this thing and saying, oh, I got your mother or father, And I said, how

stupid could people be? And I would shut the radio wall for change the station. A couple of weeks later, I'd hear him again and again, and finally about the third or fourth time, it really bothered me. There was something about this, How could people be so silly? I called his office and I told them that I was an FBI New York and I was working unsolid murder cases,

missing person cases. And I heard him on the radio, and I wanted to meet with him because the way I saw it, I could put him on the phone with Fran's family, and I didn't tell them or him the name of friend. I just said the victim's family, he could do his thing and maybe help me figure out, you know, where she is. And they were very reluctant, and to me, that just confirmed to me that he was a con. But a week later or so, I get a call from his assistant who says, John is

willing to meet with you. Would you want to come in tomorrow? I did. The only thing they asked me to bring were artifacture items connected to the person I was looking for. And I said, like what they said, it could be jewelry, it could be anything, Okay. So I called the detective in Jersey, Mike, and I said him, Mike, go evidence to get some of the fans stuff. We're going to see this alleged psychic. And the day we went to see him, before we left, I went around

my office to four different women. I would say, Hey, Kate, let me borrow your earrings, Say Susie, let me borrow your watch. I took four items from four other women and I put him in the bag with these other items, And just to expedite the story we went to see him, I'm for sure going to reveal in my mind that he's not who he says he is, and he basically in no one's certain terms, said, hey, listen, when I get started here, I'm going to get a lot of information,

a lot of things I'm going to say. You're going to resonate with. I don't want you to respond. I don't want you to give me anything. I just want you to be quiet, he said. But I may also say things that you don't that's not familiar with you. It's important to write these things down as well. So I put these nine objects in front of them, and if I put them before, you couldn't discern one from

the other. Nothing stood out about any of them. And he looked across these things, and he started pulling some things together, and he put his hands and he pushed them. These things away. He says, I don't know what these things are, but they have nothing to do with why you're here. They were the four items of the women that I brought. And then Kate. He picked up a pair of eyeglasses that belonged to fran and the information

he provided was impossible for him to know. He called her by her name, he described her in detail, told us physical attributes that were He said, she has mail in her hip, like a pin or a screw or a rod pins. He described her physically. He described she was missing a toe, and he described that she had breast implants. He described how many kids she had, and he said, she's dead. The person who caused her death is either a husband or boyfriend. It's a Jay name

and I'm pretty short John. And that was the very first meeting. And he starts getting more and more information and says, whose name is Michael. Michael, of course, is John's brother. He says, Michael knows everything you need to get to Michael, and he starts giving us information about Michael and the case in facts that were mind blowing. And then somewhere in that initial meeting, he says, wait a minute, why are you really here. He almost became indignant,

and he says, you already have this this victim. He says, I see a box on the side of a road. It's a plywood box and it's Dana Ravine. I see the line the police cars, he says, I see the newspaper article woman in the Box or girl in the Box. And at this point in the case, Kate the detective, and I have no idea what he's talking about. Turns out all the things he said turned to be true.

So that's how I met John Edward and I formed a relationship with him, and that relationship lasted twenty five years till actually today thirty years, and that one case led to many others, and he was instrumental in assisting me in many cases.

these twenty five years is undeniable. In other cases, he led me at midnight to the location of a missing five year old boy another case, he led me to another or another. I mean, it's undeniable what he helped me with. And I had to keep this relationship secret for all these years. So that's what prompted us to write this book. I retired and I wrote the book.

There was no stretching of the truth or elaboration. There were some cases where he didn't provide barely any information but symbols or look for something, but it turned out to be very significant. So I didn't, in any way, shape or form try to make him more than he was. This is what happened.

didn't need John. But some cases go cold for reason, because you've exhausted all of those things and you're a dead ends. And I don't like dead ends. I don't want to be in a dead end.

So we had no idea. John's on the phone saying she's right there, and he's leading me, telling me where to go, and my colleagues around me, and he leads us to this room and he says, she's right there. She's right there. We go in the room and she's not. He says, I'm telling you, she's right there. She's in the pipes. We're looking in the room and there's nothing there. And he says, what's on the right, the other side of the wall. Well, there was a men's room. So

we go, there's nothing. He's I'm Tony, she's right there. So John, she's I'm sorry, pal, she's not there. So the next day or day after, I I'm driving home and I get a call from my friends who's the lead agent on it, says, you're not going to believe this. After you left, we went through there again with Cadwver dogs and dogs got a hit on the men's room.

There was like a they call it a pipe chase and stay in the steel door and they opened it up and the perpetrator had taken her body and shoved her in the wall between the two rooms.

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