¶ Wicked Wanderings
and we're live oh boy , do I have shenanigans ?
yay , that's perfect . We love shenanigans . I almost wish we had been recording trying to figure out hannah's mic , so we'll play and probably break his soundboard okay .
Hi , I'm Hannah and I'm Courtney . Join us as we delve into true crime , paranormal encounters and all things spooky .
Grab your flashlight and get ready to wander into the darkness with us .
This is Wicked Wanderings , hi Courtney , hi Hannah , and we have a special guest .
Drumroll please .
Cousin Mark In the flesh sort of In the virtual flesh .
That sounds weird . In the voice sounds better . You're right , cousin Mark , in the voice , in the voice .
Also , I feel like we need to put out there that we are sorry . We have not had an episode in two or three weeks .
It's been a few weeks , guys . We've had some . I'll say I had some family matters come up in the beginning of January . I'll take ownership of that one personally . We're back . We did not go anywhere , we didn't stop . We didn't go anywhere , we didn't stop .
No , alright , cousin Mark , who is the serial killer you want to talk about , because I'm very excited for this ?
Well , we have Gary Leon Ridgeway , better known as the Green River Killer .
And there's messed up , and then there's like Gary Ridgeway- messed up , that's what . I said to Hannah the other day . I'm like there's like yeah , that guy's pretty jacked up , and then there's this guy , and then there's this guy , mr Low IQ and avoided the police for 20 years . Yeah .
Imagine that .
And mommy issues . You got to throw that in the pot . Always a good mommy issue . Lots and lots of mommy issues .
Freud talks a lot about that when he was doing things like this . Yeah , he was talking about how boys have . Oh , what's the word ?
I'm looking for the Oedipus Complex .
Yes , the Oedipus Complex , which their first love is their mother .
Mm-hmm .
Yeah .
He talks about that and how it progresses fast for him .
Oh yeah . Well , one of the things he says is that the husband , the father , needs to establish dominance . This is my wife , I'm hers , she's not going to anybody else and you can't have her . But Gary's father wasn't like that . Gary's father was very weak , Never showed , never showed any . You know male dominance in the family .
You know I have to say something because I apologize . I'm interrupting here . I have to bring up , you know , ted Bundy here .
It's just a matter of time how many minutes we got .
Six minutes and 41 seconds , rob , and here's bundy , but cousin mark's all right , I'm gonna talk about him too cousin mark says something really interesting about how mothers are usually the son's first love type of thing , and I'm thinking of ted bundy and how he thought his grandmother was his mother and I feel like that's a whole nother oh , it's a whole nother
layer of things that fucked him up .
I'm sure . Yeah , I'm sure .
Well , that's also a nurture thing . Yeah , yes , which ?
we talked about yeah .
Nature or nurture , but that's the nurture thing . Yeah , he was Bundy , was deceived by women and then he targeted women . Yeah , you know , and it was the same thing with Bridgeway , 100% Bridgeway .
As we get into him , you're going to notice how resentful he was towards his mother but also loved her at the same time , because that was the first woman he's ever known , right .
And now .
Edmund Kemper was the same way . His mother was brutal , brutal to him . Edmund Kemper was the co-ed killer out in .
California .
¶ Roots of Serial Killers
That guy like 6'9" , almost 350 pounds , oh , big boy . He wasn't allowed to try out for the police department because he was too big . But anyways , he was too big so they wouldn't let him join the academy . You're too big , sir , but anyways , what ? Yeah , he was too big so they wouldn't let him join the academy .
You're too big , sir . You can't sit here . You literally don't fit . You can't fit in the cruiser , you can't be a police officer .
I thought bigger the better in the police department . But what do I know ? Police brutality , yeah .
For him . His mother was very domineering , but he also had an iq of like 160 , so he was extremely smart and , um , he's another one that you know we can get into at some point , you know , in a future . Gary Ridgway wasn't very smart according to IQ levels and just had major issues with his mother . Growing up he was a bedwetter .
Oh .
Yeah , and he did that into his early teens . Yeah , and his mother wasn't easy on him . His mother , would you know , degrade him in front of his siblings and she would physically hand wash him and in her eyes , scrub the dirty parts .
Oh , there was a lot of , I think , along with how you were saying , mark , that the dad was supposed to be domineering , he was supposed to be commanding that respect .
I feel like his mom sort of filled that role of being the dominant one in the house , which almost caused like a power dynamic too , because she would I read the same thing she would , like you were saying , wash the dirty parts . And there was a lot of sexual abuse that happened right there . Because of that , I mean that alone is demeaning .
She worked at a tailor store and she would have to measure the men's suits and she would come back and tell gary about how , you know , she would get the men to have an erection , you know , and what they smelled like .
And , oh god , yeah , she gave him all these , all these stories that she went through to her son and that's , and that's how he started to learn about sex .
That was what his whole basis of like sexual maturity and physical relation to women , and then when you think about it , I mean physical relation to women and emotional relationship to women . She was physically and emotionally abusive . So there's already this power dynamic of like women here and Gary here .
So it really doesn't surprise me , especially with the trend of people he goes after . Once you start talking about his killings , it makes 100 sense that that's who he targeted .
But once I heard that I was like oh bingo , there we go and people don't normally think of women as special sexual abusers , like abusers . That doesn't really not something that people cross my . You hear a sexual abuse , you're like what man did it ?
It's rare that women are doing it , but they do , yeah , they do do it , I feel like a lot of times to children too .
I think a lot of the times that I hear about women as the perpetrator , it's high school boys who are . You know , they don't . They know it's wrong , but they don't think about it that way because they're horned up and they're like well you know , she's just a teacher , she's an older woman , right Exactly .
Or you hear about it like younger boys because they're like okay , well , no one's going to question that a mom washing her son in the bathtub especially at that time , was abusive Right . Exactly . You don't know . You're never going to question a mom and how she washes her child .
Like that's just not something that's going . Back then you didn't Right .
Now , you do Now in this society .
You're definitely going to question that . Yeah , a hundred percent You're right , yeah , which is which is understandable , because some things you you shouldn't do to a child . You know you should wash your child if they're small enough , but you know not the way that she was where she was embarrassing him , right , and making him feel dirty .
Yeah , a line was crossed , yeah , but again , that's why I brought up kemper . Kemper's mother was the same way , because he was so big , she was afraid that he was going to do something to his sister , so she'd make . She'd make him sleep in the basement while everybody else is upstairs in the bedroom . So nothing happened .
And you wonder why these men have these like power complex over these women .
There's always a reason . There's always a reason Just .
Well , that's why I mean you go back to the nature or nurture thing . You know , when kids are very impressionable , that's the things that they relate to , what they see .
A hundred percent impressionable . That's the things that they relate to , what they see . 100 and they don't even realize they're doing it . Our young years are so formidable .
People don't realize that their beliefs and things they take on what their family believes yeah , and that's why ridgeway had such a hard time , because his in his mind , some of his first sexual fantasies were violent scrubbing , so violent sex comes into that thought process so I know me and you .
We had a conversation earlier this week about nature and nurture , and so remind me if your belief is that most of this is nurture . Like they might have had a switch nature speaking in their minds , but it was the nurture that really kind of switched it on . Am I right ? Is ?
that what you're thinking . Yes , I think it's just the individual . You know how the individual perceives what they're looking at , you know , because Bundy was lied to by the two most important women in his life , his mother and his grandmother , but he thought was sister and mother . That's a pretty big lie , you know .
And there's other serial killers that have had the same issues . You know Ridgway wasn't lied to , he was just pushed in a direction of what sex should be right . So he , you know that was what formed in his brain at a very young age right , and most of his victims were sex workers because they were vulnerable , easy targets yeah , and he definitely like .
I believe I can't remember . I've read a couple of different things about him , so I can't remember the exact source on this . I apologize , but I believe he was even directly quoted saying things like just not believing in sex workers , not believing that they were real people and things . He didn't believe that they were worth anything because of what they did .
He viewed them as dirty .
He actually told the police . I thought I was doing you a favor .
Yeah , wow , and that's 100% the nurture and the behavioral piece in my mind too . I'm with Mark on that one . I think somebody kept telling him he was dirty and he was bad . And now he's looking at these other people who are , in his mind , dirty and bad and he's like they don't deserve to be here , just like how I didn't deserve these other things too .
It makes 100% sense that he's like they're a woman and they're dirty and they're they're these different things because he first , when he first started killing , he would .
He would choke him from behind . You know , put him in like a , put him in a chokehold and uh , that was how he killed the first . Like three or four of them . And just to degrade them more , he would . When he went to throw them in the water , he was stuffing things inside of them .
Yeah , so was he soliciting them first , or was he just finding them and then going behind ?
Was it kind of like hey , I want your services ? He was going and trying to start a business transaction and taking them Okay , Sometimes in front of his son .
Because that was the easiest way to get them in the vehicles . Yeah , okay , okay , because they willingly get in with you and no one's paying attention to them , right , except one that he did pick up . Her boyfriend , pimp , was behind her and was following , but he got stopped at a light and Ridgeway drove off and he couldn't find where the car went .
And Ridgway drove off and he couldn't find where the car went . So the next day the father of the woman that Ridgway had and the boyfriend went out driving and they actually found his truck in the driveway . So they called the police . The police came in , looked at Ridgway and he was calm as could be .
No one's here , blah , blah , blah , and they had no reason to question him any further . So they just they let him go . They're like he's , she's not in there . You know you guys are probably wrong and you know just one of the ways Ridgeway got away from being interviewed by police .
Right , and I think also the low intelligence . I mean that you can tell when you're talking to someone if low intelligence . I mean that you can tell when you're talking to someone if his intelligence really presented as low as it was on the IQ scale . I'm sure there was a lot of overlooking him . Simply , oh , this guy couldn't he .
He's more in that time , oh , he's more simple than that . He couldn't get this done and he was never bringing them to his house . So it was kind of genius when you think about it . He was never to him , except his car . Was this ?
I'm sorry , 70s , 60s , uh , the 82 , oh 82 , oh , okay , so 82 so we're , we're just slowly getting into you know , the dna and testing for things , but it's still in its infancy at that point . So they really couldn't . You know , they could do swabs and you , you know , check for you know secretor , non-secretor and whatnot . But that's the other thing .
It's hard to prove with a prostitute who was the last one to have sex with them , because it could have been , you know , if you get semen samples , it could be the fact that , yeah , that I did have sex with that prostitute but I walked away from her .
Right , yeah , right . And at that time there was a crime in it , but it wasn't wasn't murder . We weren't talking about murder . It wasn't murder , right , right .
Just because someone's unfaithful to their wife and they go to a prostitute doesn't make them a murderer . Right , right , right .
And also he could have had sex with her .
Right .
Like it just happens to be that they never had sex .
I also believe that he he wasn't . It doesn't seem like , from the reading that I had done , that he often used vaginal sex . It seemed like he was more of like an oral sex .
Yeah .
Yeah , then again , a lot of times it was from behind , right , and that was how he grabbed them . So once he figured out that , as he was choking them , the women would scratch him , he would . Then , once he got scratched , he would actually clip their fingernails .
Oh , he was tidy , so there was no skin , but after he was getting scratched he started to use a ligature Right , Just like here . He didn't have to get damaged and then have to explain scratches and whatnot .
But that's like a logical progression for someone , so it boggles my mind that he his IQ was as low as it was .
Yeah , I mean because the other thing he did was he would go to bus stations and grab care from the toilets and plant it around . He would grab cigarette butts , so they all thought he smoked Right .
It almost makes me wonder if he was like a crime buff or something he was like into the pamphlets from hotels yeah and leave them to make it look like he was a traveler or a guest from that hotel , and then they'd be down that rabbit hole looking for him and he's just like at his house one street down , just chilling and cory , you mentioned a son .
I believe he had a son . He was he married .
I believe it was math he was married once , right ?
or was it twice , three times ? Oh jesus , oh , I missed . I missed a wife somewhere in there .
Yeah , uh , the first one he married in 78 okay , oh , okay so they divorced and I think I'm pretty sure they divorced in 79 .
I have a whole bunch of notes I was gonna say the first one wasn't very long . I remember that .
It was two years . So Matthew was not from two years .
No , I want to say Matthew was from his second .
Yes , I believe
¶ Lethal Predator's Disturbing Revelations
so . There was a couple of times that he had his son in the vehicle when he went and picked up a girl .
Yeah , they asked him in an interview would you have killed your son , if he saw it and he said I don't think so . He didn't say no , I don't think so . He said he , if he had .
If his son saw something , he would have had to kill him . Oh , he did say my god , it's ridiculous . How old was the kid ?
young he was not that old . Oh yeah , the women would ask to see his id . So he'd pull his id , out his name , and in his wallet would be pictures of his son . So it put the women at ease because you know .
Oh , he's a dad . The father's not going to do anything yeah .
And then there were other times where his son wasn't with him but he had toys in the car . So you know , jeez , yeah , but see , that's the thing you know , he was so smart in evading the police . Yeah , with all this little things that you know , you probably never would have thought of .
Yeah , he got good at it because he wasn't doing just one thing all the time . He really like diversified what he was doing along the way , but they always knew he was . I mean , they hypothesized before they caught him that he was just one person .
And even all the all the prostitutes at the time that they were able to get you know , data from to to write a book I think it was ann rules book . It was like , yeah , you know , I kind of thought about it when I got in the car with somebody but this is how I pay my bills and so I didn't think they were the .
You know , I didn't think he was the killer and I'm like , how do you just go off a hunch when you know this guy's out here killing prostitutes ? And you're just like , I got in the car with him but I didn't think it was him , so it was fine , and I'm like , oh my gosh but that's .
But that's what it is . You know , the monster's not gonna look like a monster right , yeah , so how old was he when he started ? Well , he was born in 49 , so late 20s when he started early 30s . So he started pretty early . He did His thing .
Was I wanted to kill as many prostitutes as I possibly could , mission-based , yeah , which is why I don't understand why he doesn't get as much publicity as the bigger ones .
It's true , because he had a lot of victims , his victim count was very high . It was very high .
It was the highest in the U ? S at that time .
It was in the forties Forties .
Yeah , I don't think anybody's . I mean Pinkton , willie Pinkton gross . He was active at this time too .
That's true . Yeah , that's true , yeah .
And he was in Vancouver , so they were like really close to each other at the time . Huh , yeah , and that was one of the things Ridgeway did . Ridgeway would bring bring victims to different places to try to throw off the the trail , mm .
Yeah , pinkton .
Yeah , His name , just like he's one of those people . And I have a weird thing about only a few things when it comes to serial killers , but cannibalism is one of my things . And then Pinkton just gives me the skeeves , Cause I don't know what . I don't know . How about necrophilia .
I mean , yeah , I don't love the idea of necrophilia , but I don't know why cannibalism is like like .
I can't with cannibalism , that's well , that's one of the things Ridgway did , after he dumped the first , and then would dump the bodies off the side of the road and whatnot in what he called clusters .
Yeah , so he'd use the same dump site and you know there were times where , if he didn't have the time to go pick up a prostitute , he'd go back to these dump sites , visit and have sex with the court .
Oh my God , and there was at least one , where it was like this person was decomposing , like I'm not talking about , like she was there from yesterday , like some left out , like she was there a long ass time and decomposing , and he was like oh , my God .
I finally had to stop when I had to spread the bugs away .
Oh God , yep . How's that waffle feeling in your stomach right now ?
I just had a waffle before we hopped on here . I'm glad I'm not trying to eat the waffle right now , but yeah , yeah , he's definitely there . You can see sometimes where you're like he's so calculated , maybe there wasn't something wrong , like maybe he just had bad urges . And then you hear things like that .
You're like , nope , there's got to be something disconnected in there , because who in their right mind I mean humans are sex-driven creatures ? But who in their right mind , like I don't have time to pick up a prostitute today , I'm just gonna go find this dead body with bugs on it . Oh yeah , it was around the corner back over there .
No disrespect , disrespect to the victims . I'm very sorry , that was insensitive , but just the mentality of him is very like . You think you've got him pegged and then you're like what the fuck ? Oh no , that's why I said there's messed up . And then there's this guy . Like he's just got so much to him . Do like a full psychoanalysis on all of this .
So is he ?
still alive . I mean , we can almost get half that we can't still talk to him mark's like get the van , we're going road trip , road trip , wait , where is he ?
I don't know that answer .
Uh , he's in um washington oh , washington state okay , yeah , washington state yeah , but again I'm gonna bring up Bundy .
Bundy , that's number two 2618 , Rob .
¶ Insight Into Psychopath Behavior and Investigations
When Bundy was incarcerated in Florida . After the Florida killings the detectives from Washington came down and interviewed Bundy to get perspective on a psychopath serial killer . A psychopath serial killer . And he told them you know that this guy is going to revisit his clusters .
And he said if you find a fresh kill you should stake it out and see if he shows back up . He did show back up . They just didn't have the right ones when he did show up . But then once there were too many there he would pick another spot and go to another one .
Well , bundy knew , because Bundy favored dumping sites too . He did . Bundy knew because he had his own favored spots .
So I'm sure he and it's funny too , because that's one of those things where I can imagine , as an investigator or a police officer , you're like , okay , I'm getting this information and let's consider the source of who it's coming from but also like they're kind of an expert in their field , like if you've got someone behind bars , like , yes , they're a criminal .
Yes , what they do is wrong , yes , they might need some kind of psychotic medication and things but they also aren't like right . They are an expert in their field , so why would you not take their opinion and at least go try what do they have to ?
gain or lose right from being in there , like like he was dead , somebody that thinks that way right , exactly that's what I mean because a normal brain doesn't think that exactly right , exactly .
You just keep coming up with short straws .
At that point yeah , or they do think that way , but they were raised correctly and they go yeah , this is wrong , you know , let's not do that right , if I do that , I'll end up behind bars and I don't look good in orange .
So exactly was ?
the police actually interested at first in these women that were dying because of their profession ? Because I know with picton they weren't really interested at first . They're like all right , another prostitute we found . Okay , like let's move on . Were they like actually interested ?
in . I didn't get the impression that the police were dismissive of them .
It started out real slow because they didn't like any case , they didn't think they had a serial killer on them . Right , right .
They were just like oh , a prostitute went missing , that's not unheard of , that's yes . She could have run away , she could have started a new life , all that same stuff .
And that's the thing with prostitutes . You know they're adults , they can go off the grid for as long as they want . It doesn't mean they're dead , right . It doesn't mean they're missing . They could have just went south .
And three-quarters of the time they're not using their real identity , which makes it even harder .
Because the people who are .
You know ? Even the pimp might be reporting . Okay , hannah is missing , but like , how do we know ? Hannah is her real name . She could be using an alias .
Right , and then you got the human trafficking piece too .
Right .
Their bodies can be moved wherever they want Right Because to pimps and everybody else . They're a piece of property and free will . Yeah , I could just be like . You know what I'm all done with this .
I'm just going to vanish , right . So that's always a the right to be able to open the case . However , when it's an adult and they're like well , there's no foul play . That person is allowed to just disappear . You and I are both allowed to just say you know what ? Fuck this place .
I'm out and just get up and leave our life and we're free Roman adults .
We're allowed to do that , but we lose so much valuable time because of that human right , which is both a blessing and kind of in a curse , I guess .
Especially when you have people that , like I , I feel like I know you right . If me and Britain were to go to the police like no , you understand , like Courtney had a business here , she has x , y and z or she's not gonna go anywhere and they're like well , she's an adult like you know my patterns , but they still wouldn't take your word for it , exactly .
I mean it's unfortunate , but people will be like oh well , maybe the person just doesn't want to talk to you and you're like like I mean , yeah , I guess , but it's a tough spot , yep .
But that happens in every single case . Yeah , yep , I listened to one podcast called the Teacher's Pet , and the mother of two just disappeared and everybody there said there's no way this woman's leaving her two kids . Right Her two kids were her life . Right , there's no way .
And kids were her life right , there's no way . And the police are like what you want me to do ? Yeah , exactly , and it's sad because I I see both sides of that . I see like , yeah , a human , a human adult , has the right to just pick up and leave , and we don't always know everything about someone just because we think we do , and I understand that .
But I also feel like how many cases could we solve if we didn't do that ? Yeah , like , honestly , if I ever go quote , unquote , missing , and I'm just like pissed at all y'all and someone comes up to me and they're like hey , your friends are really concerned for you . I'm gonna be like , first of all , I'm fine and tell them I said fuck themselves .
Like , but also thank them for caring about me . Like I'm gonna call hannah and be like I hate you . We really have to do that . But at the same time , I would be like okay , but hannah cares about me . She was worried . Yeah , I'll always be worried . Yeah , she stalks my location constantly . She's like hey , I see that it's 6 pm .
Why are you in East Hartford ? Why are you not home yet ? Why aren't you home ? When are you coming home ?
I don't know if anyone has your location , Mark , but A couple do , but they don't use it .
I feel like I always like say that on here because I'm like don't target me . People know where I am . I know where you are . I got a lot of people know where I am . I have my dad's location on my phone . That's right here . If something happens , I know where I can find him .
Exactly , I usually just take the phones and just add the location , because everyone's like tech support , I need help and I'm like , ooh , there you are .
You're at the Walmart , I got you . I got to look at something they never know , we'll never notice . But anyways , gary did serve in the Navy , oh , he was military . The first time and he saw . He saw action in Vietnam and also saw action in the Philippines with the prostitutes there .
Contributing factors . He proceeded to pick up , Check when he proceeded to pick up Check , check .
He proceeded to pick up STDs . Oh , he was married to his first wife , oh , you can see why that one didn't last long . Yeah , there's another issue with Ridgway being mad at women . You know for getting STDs , but he never killed anyone over there .
That we're aware of .
Well , not in a military aspect .
Okay , oh , oh , oh , like action .
He didn't kill anybody as in battle , but he didn't we don't know if he did or not , but he didn't kill any of the prostitutes that he was with over there .
Okay , okay , I'm sorry . Every time I hear vietnam , I just want to go vietnam . Yeah right , what movie is that ?
I have no idea , no , that was uh .
Good morning vietnam yes , sorry , just every time I want to say that , but anyways , it was good morning .
Vietnam . I want to say the Office also does that at one point . They do yeah .
¶ The Marriage and Deviant Behavior
Ridgway's first wife , while he was overseas , was cheating on him over here because she was by herself .
In hindsight . Good choice , buddy , Pat the back on that .
one Good for her on that one , but again , it's just another thing that solidifies his Evilness in women Anger towards women .
And he never hurt any of his wives , correct ?
No , I believe it was his second wife . They went out somewhere and he snuck around the car .
Yeah , oh yeah , I remember that and put her in a chokehold . Oh , the first wife , the second wife , second wife , I think it was the second wife Didn't he try to say like that wasn't me . There was a random man here , exactly , he tried to gaslight her .
He ran around the other side of the car and she's , you know , choked out when she let her go and he got on the other side . She was screaming , so he ran around the other . He pretended he wasn't there . What's the matter ? She knew it was him , but she kept denying it .
Was she the one that produced the child ? Yeah , I believe so . The second one okay , I believe that was the mother of his child .
Yeah , I wonder if I can .
That was the thing All of his ex-wives and ex-girlfriends said . He always wanted sex all the time , and he wanted a lot of it outdoors .
Yes , and he wanted , he wanted a lot of it outdoors , yes , outdoors but .
But in 73 I showed a picture I don't know .
At least ted bundy was a good old guy there oh so is he on death row or no ?
No no he did a plea bargain and and admitted to all of them so he wouldn't get the death penalty and it looks like his marriages were claudia craig barrows 1970 to 1972 , then marcia laureen brown 1973 to 1981 and finally judith lorraine lynch 1988 to 2002 yes , yes , he was still with Judith when he was arrested .
Yes , yeah , yeah , because 2002 is far after he was .
Well , he was arrested in the end of 2001 . That was when they finally caught him . He's 75 . His killings went down after he married Judith , because Judith loved him and showed him the love , unlike , unlike the other two where the first one the first one cheated on him and then Marsha , his second wife , ended up having gastric bypass .
Yes , so she got herself skinny and he got . He was afraid that she was gonna cheat on him .
yeah , he was like resentful that other men were gonna look at her because he didn't want her . I think in his mind to be dirty like , yeah , now other men are gonna want you .
They're gonna think about you impurely and so the third wife is like kinks , be kinks , and is like I'll have sex with you outside the backyard , they all commented on that .
We're like , yeah , he always wanted to have sex like multiple times a day was something I remember them saying and he always wanted to have sex violently and outside , like he could never just be like , oh , like like a regular couple , like let's have like lazy mornings , like he knew he needed it to be like outside and violent and like multiple times a day .
Well , when you go back to it , that is normal for him .
That's true , yeah , because of the violence from his mom , his brain is normal .
So did . Did he like it when they were still ? Because I know some killers are like I need you to be completely still like a corpse , Bundy .
Yeah , that's true , bundy , bundy . Bundy liked them acting dead Gross yeah .
But again , it's not even noon .
Yet we're like , yeah , necrophilia , and I will say so . I'm looking at a huge , long list of all of his victims , which is super sad and and honestly , my heart breaks looking at this list .
Putting names to it really just brings it home makes it worse , yeah but I'm looking at most of the ages and , as of youngest , 16 , 15 , the oldest I've seen so far is 31 .
There's only been one person 30 or over way down the bottom you're gonna have to see the 36 patricia there's a okay .
So there was three that were over 30 and everybody else was mid-20s and below . You're right , because he , marta reeves , was 36 and Patricia Ann Yellow Robe was 38 .
Yeah , but he also had one that he killed , that he knew , and she was a waitress . Which is interesting , she wasn't a prostitute .
Doesn't fit . Unless he , like maybe had fantasized about her or he had seen something , he made a mistake .
He made a mistake and he admits to that . And after he killed her he laid down next to her and cuddled her and cried because he knew he screwed up .
But see , that's where the behaviorist in me is so fascinated , because these mission based serial killers really believe in their mission to the core . They believe what they're doing is for a greater purpose . They do believe it's right , because that's you can't tell me . That's a person who doesn't feel empathy and who doesn't feel sorry he did .
In our morals we should have felt bad the whole time , but he , he got so upset because he made a mistake that he does understand empathy and he does understand how to feel for somebody else . So it's like that's where it's fascinating to me on the emotion side social side , social , emotionally , like he does know .
He just believed in his mission more than you know anything else . Well , when he married his second wife , masha , he became very religious . He became very religious . You know he , he was being the family man . You know , going to church crying during sermons .
Part of me wants to go mania question mark , because like hyper religiousness is like a huge thing in mania makes me wonder about like a bpd or a bipolar oh , that was .
That was dennis raider btk . He was the head guy at the church that he was , that he was part of oh , doesn't that make your skin crawl .
There's something about being in a religious power of position and also being a serial killer that just makes my . All those times I was forced to go to catechism , I'm like guys . You don't know how close I was to death .
Dude , we still need to do a whole episode on religious trauma because you know , because of Mark I don't know if he knows about me but I grew up extremely religious . So my school , my private school , was actually attached to the church that I went to .
So I was there six days a week , whether it was for school or church on Sunday , I was there every day except Saturday . And come to find out one of the youth pastors .
That was part of coaching the volleyball team .
He was in Bible classes with us . He was there on Sundays for classes . He moved to Florida for this great principal job at this private Christian school . He gets arrested for sexually abusing children and that man was like in my life , like , and my mom actually had to come to us and be like did he do anything to you guys like that I don't know about .
Like it's disgusting to me that these people are just they're everywhere . Yeah .
Yeah , but then that goes with nature . Yeah , yeah , but then that that goes with nature . Yeah , this guy is surrounded by kids 10 hours a day . The opportunity is there yeah , you know the opportunity base that's , that's the opportunity and if and if you're , if you can be a good judge of character , you can .
You can figure out the weak ones and strong ones and then you exploit them . Or even not , if you're a good judge of character , you can figure out the weak ones and strong ones and then you exploit them .
Or even not if you're a good judge of character . I mean , some of these people are in guidance counselor positions . These kids are being forced to come and tell you all the things that are going wrong with them . You don't even have to be good at reading kids .
You're literally like oh , this kid just came in and told me he gets beaten at home If I make him feel special and give him some things , it's . It's so hard because children are so impressionable . Like you said earlier , it is so easy to find what they want . We behaviorists you talk about turning the behavior on and turning it off .
You know how to reinforce these kids and it's . It really is not a skill that everybody should have . It's , uh , use the wrong way .
It's very gross and just think about , like danny croto , like when I did two episodes over a year ago at this point that was a rough one , his family was like oh , a Catholic priest . There can be nothing wrong , danny . You need to be with this priest more . He can help shape you into a wonderful man .
Yes , and to the point where , like he got picked up by this priest at school and he was crying and his friends remember he's like I don't want to go with him , but like yeah , yeah , the parents were like no , it's a priest , it's a man of god , he , they would never do anything my child .
And that fucking priest murdered him and I think , fortunately , as a society , we're coming away from like , like , I think the and obviously for what I do , for work
¶ Childcare Trust and Serial Killers
, I work with a lot of families . I work with a lot of parents . I feel like I see a lot more parents who are like , yeah , no , if I I can't go do that because I have to be home with my kid . And someone will say like , oh , why don't you get a babysitter ? And I've seen moms be like , uh , because I don't trust anybody with my kid .
Yeah , I'm not gonna trust a single person . Like people will say what about your sister ? Well , you know what , I don't trust her . And just because she's my sister doesn't mean I should trust her to watch my kids . That's a very personal thing .
I like that we're coming around to the idea of like we're just gonna pay that random guy down the street to hang out with our kids . That's kind of weird when you think about it .
Billy Bob next door is a really nice guy when he mows his lawn .
Like that doesn't mean shit . Exactly .
Exactly . Well , that was the babysitter .
Yeah , tony Costa .
Yeah , out on the Cape .
Yeah , yeah , I did an episode on him .
Yeah , yeah . They would always hang around with him out on the dump this and that , and then the next thing you know , he's murdering people from the hotel that he was working at .
The good thing about Tony ? Well , not a good thing the thing about Tony is he had a very specific type of . He murdered women he was in relationships with or women who were around a certain age . So the kids were probably always safe with Tony , because I really don't believe .
After I've read , like I think , three books on him now , I really don't get the impression that he ever would have like . I do believe he , as far as taking care of children was , I do believe he was a good guy . He enjoyed spending time with them . He took them to do things .
Maybe he shouldn't have taken them to a place where he was growing his marijuana and burying his bodies , but I think they were always . I think those girls were always safe with him .
To be honest , yeah , he's bought him for ice cream .
I'm surprised he didn't try to kill their mom though , because she fit the profile .
She fit the profile hard but see , that's the thing with children and , like you said , hannah , you know that's a priest , you go , go with them . The priest is yeah , when children are saying something , the parents just brush it off oh , they're lying , oh , they're just kids .
Yeah , you're looking for attention with ?
cops yep , some cops use abuse their authority and some don't . But it's like how do you differentiate ?
right , right .
That's the problem you can't tell which adult is being mean to the child , because you're going to believe the adult before you believe the child . Right , right , which is sad in society , but anyways oh man , tangent , that's , okay . That was one of the other things that I had found when I was doing my research for him .
I never knew how they got fingerprints off of a body that was submerged in water for so long .
Right , and how would they be reliable ? I guess is the word .
Oh yeah , this is interesting .
What the coroners would do was they would cut the wrist and pull the skin off like a glove and they'd wear it right and wear it to get the fingerprints , because that was the easiest way to firm the skin up after it's been waterlogged .
so that they could get a viable print . But that's so interesting . I don't know what it is about dismembering bodies that makes my body feel uncomfortable .
Well , you're supposed to feel uncomfortable .
Something about wearing people's skin and cannibalism . There's just something about those two . Well , you're not wearing it for fun , but they're still wearing it .
They're like let me put it on .
You said like gloves . That makes me uncomfortable . You at least have a rubber glove on in between ? I would hope so . You gotta use some kind of protection there .
No gloves , no love , that's exactly what I was gonna say , Mark . I was like I'm gonna keep it clean . I don't know how cool Mark is with that . Oh , no , Mark's cool with that .
Mark is cool with that . You should be his brother , Matt . You can't offend me .
I think we should make t-shirts that say no glove , no love , with a cousin mark emblem on it and it has just like a skin hand . I'm gonna ask rob he can create one . It's like the adams family hand yes , but it says no glove no love , that's it , cousin mark dash , cousin , today's date what 2 2 , 25 . I love it , let's do it .
One of the things gary ridgeway talked about was having a polygraph .
He ended up passing .
So they looked at Ridgeway and they asked him . They said how did you pass the polygraph ? He says , and I quote , and here I am quoting . He says well , I just sat there and I relaxed and I answered their questions .
Yeah , well , because it does go off of , I think , like your pulse and things like that yeah your heart rate when you're lying to somebody . You're like when we were lying to Rob about a surprise party . He's like we're going to go do this and we're like okay .
Yeah , and your heart starts to and we're sweating , yeah . But if you go into it and you're like take a Xanax . I could pass the polygraph that way . But this is why polygraphs aren't allowed in court cases .
Right right , because they don't really tell you anything , because you can manipulate them . Yeah , it's interesting also , though he was not intelligent according to his IQ score , but yet he was intelligent enough to fake the polygraph .
They're psychopaths . I like that . Yeah , we're so psychopaths both of them , we're so past both of them . But once they started to get into DNA and everything , they had an article of clothing from the first murder victim that they had saved , that piece of clothing that they had had spray paint particles on it he was a painter . But they never .
They , you know , back then they couldn't analyze it and figure out what it was . They could just see little tiny red spots . So now fast forward to DNA processes .
They were able to figure out that it was spray paint for vehicles and they were able to narrow it down because Ridgeway worked at the Kenworth Trucking Company , spray painting the new vehicles , spray painting the new vehicles , which was one of the ways that they caught him because of having it on his clothes and passing it off . As you know , touch DNA .
So they were able to .
They had to get sharp with his teeth , yeah .
And they ended up picking him up at work . That was where they grabbed him .
Hard to say . You don't work there when you're there , huh .
Yeah , and it was funny because he was so strange that his co-workers were starting to name him the Green River Killer .
Imagine the irony .
They were trying to goof on him , not knowing that it was really him yeah , not knowing how close to death they were for saying that to a man who'd killed .
he was actually 49 , I think it was 48 , but a Jane Doe , so 49 , I think .
Yeah , in 2010, .
they found another victim that they attributed to him , so he ended up admitting to that one too 48 life counts , life sentences , yeah , so I mean he'll be out soon you know , it's like a thousand years or something like that .
Yeah , but he had to plead . He had to plead guilty to all of them to avoid the death penalty .
But like . Why would you want to stay alive to like it makes me wonder how much more there is for them to .
Does he have parole , or is that without parole ? That's without parole . No , no , no , no , he did not get parole .
He's serving 49 life sentences , so there's no parole .
There's no good behavior situation here .
There is no star chart for Gary Ridgeway .
All right , I'm going to stop our recording here . Wait , should we say goodbye ? Oh , I'm not going to stop our recording here .
I feel like we should say goodbye to him . He spent like two and a half hours on you .
Well , I was going to say goodbye to him . I wasn't just going to press log off on him , I was just going to hit stop recording . But shouldn't we say goodbye to him though on air ? Okay , sure , go ahead , hannah , lead us on your goodbye . Should we sing him a song ?
Goodbye , so long .
I don't know the words to this one .
This is getting really weird Goodbye .
Welcome to us . We don't know how to start or end a conversation . Bye . Thank you , Cousin Mark . We appreciate you coming on and doing your thing and you're obviously welcome back whenever you have more things you want to yap about .
Yes , always All right , that's awesome . I would love to be back . You guys just let me know and we'll figure out a time and we'll banter .
Sounds perfect , banter .
And don't forget we have a group chat , so we need to hear from you , because I'm working on ladies .
Of course . Alright , now I'm going to press Bye .
¶ Community Appreciation and Merch Announcement
Thanks for listening . Today , wicked Wanderings is hosted by me , hannah , and co-hosted by me , courtney , and it's produced by Rob Fitzpatrick . Music by Sasha N . If you enjoyed today's episode , don't forget to leave a rating and review and be sure to follow on all socials . You can find the links down in the show notes .
If you're looking for some really cozy t-shirts or hoodies , head over to the merch store . Thank you for being a part of the Wicked Wanderings community . We appreciate every one of you .