¶ Pre-Intro
me , me , me , me me . I feel like I have to warm up . What do you need to do ? Like I'm gonna sing . You know like singers are like oh , no , no .
So when I went to go visit my college roommate , paula last weekend yes , she was we were sitting at dinner in a very paula kind of way and I was like oh my god , these hannah and paula need to meet , because paula was was like , bro , you know how much I love Ted Bundy and I was like that's so funny , because I must just attract people who love Ted
Bundy .
I know it's awful of me to say it's not like I . I don't agree with what he did , obviously , but there's something about him that is , yeah , very mysterious and he's interesting on a psychological level .
Yeah , for me , she's always been fascinated with prison . So I met paul when I was 18 with prison , prison . She's been fascinated with prison , like something about prison just like knocked her socks off . I don't know what it was . She I mean she had never gone to prison . But she needs prison . Kink , she might .
Yeah , and she's like watching all these documentaries . And her poor boyfriend was like we must have seen the ted bundy things like 16 000 times . He's like she could just fall asleep to it casually . I'm like stuff I can fall asleep to . Are you sure you don't want to be gay for hannah ?
Honestly , I think I've gotten to the point where I read smut everywhere . Yesterday I was just casually waiting for maria to get um over to the restaurant . Yeah , and I'm just sitting there in Starbucks in East Longmeadow just reading some on my Kindle .
This like little old man comes up to me and he's like excuse me , where did you get the case for your Kindle ? I'm like , ooh , quick recovery , amazon . Who are you Kindle ?
Yes , that's what I have in my hand , hold on .
I'm like , excuse me , excuse me .
It's like you have a little like hee , hee , hee .
No one knows what I'm writing here , I just feel like they do , though I feel like I have like a giveaway phase . No , I'm reading something and I feel like they're like yeah , that girl's .
The only give that ? Well , only because I know you're reading it , but , like you , play with the cover on your Kindle .
That's my ADHD . I have a like on my phone . You can see this section is lifted up .
I tinker with it constantly you need to get the the backings of the phones that have the bubble .
I don't like those no but there's one that has a fidget . I was rubbing the can on my truly earlier , true , whatever , that's true . I did this and I just saw the guy in the parking lot . Yeah , that guy in the parking lot earlier was like you just know , that guy was a cop in another life .
Sir , don't tell me where to go , fuck the patriarchy , but let me call you daddy . No , that guy didn't . He was not daddy quality .
Oh no , not him , but just like you know , I don't know .
Do you want me to call you ?
daddy , no , no , ew no all right , all right .
Why don't you drop us in with , uh , robert picton ? I mean we have to greet each other because there's only two of us . I was like , who is she gonna greet ? Like , okay ?
¶ Intro
Hi , I'm Hannah . Join me as I delve into true crime , paranormal encounters and all things spooky . Grab your flashlight and get ready to wander into the darkness with me . This is Wicked Wanderings . Hi , courtney , hi , hannah , thank you for joining me tonight .
Thank , you for having me .
Rob is shirking his duties . He's working . He's shirking his duties .
He's working . He's shirking his duties . I should say that we are being left unsupervised . We did have a checklist , we did set checklists . We did the checklist already , and now the cats are free to play .
Pretty much and I'm going to quote , and here I am quoting , and here I am quoting and we're going to be talking about douchebags and it's going to be a good night let's get into it , I'm excited . I'm here for it . I've been waiting too long for this . So this is the second half of Robert Pickton .
So if you haven't listened to the first one , gotta go back over . So I appreciate you joining me for the second part .
I was left on a cliffhanger . I just I kept thinking about this guy , I kept thinking about her , and I don't think anybody should eat during this episode . I'm going to put a disclaimer out , Thank you . I don't think anybody should be eating . If you're eating , please , please , please , please , pause . Yes .
And if body horror gets you , this is not it . Yeah , trigger warning . So we're in Vancouver
¶ Robert Picton Part 2
, right , so 1997 . Okay , there was an area of Vancouver that was known for its prostitution and drugs , which I think we kind of touched on before . Yeah , so people will go there to get a fix or their fantasy satisfied . No judgment , just whatever . Kinks be kinks . Yeah , kinks be kinks .
So Pickton was one of these people that frequented the downtown area and he was distinguishable by his leather boots and smelly truck .
Great , that would get me in there smelly truck , right ?
can you imagine , yum , yum . So saturday , march 22nd 1997 , 31 year old prostitute known as stitch she wouldn't give her real name makes sense , makes sense , right ? She was picked up by pinkton picked in that pinkton pick , din words . I haven't even gotten three sentences in .
He wanted to bring her back to coke whitlam where he lived , but she did not want to venture that far outside the city . He sweetened the deal and she ended up getting in his truck . Oh bueno , oh bueno . She was freaked out by seeing another woman's bra on the seat .
That's what freaked her out about that situation . I know , sorry , I mean , that is true , that is true , it wasn't the overwhelming stink of his drive .
He wasn't a very attractive man either . But I know like when you choose , or are forced , unfortunately , to do that kind of work , you can't really be picky .
Yeah , I mean , it's no different than waiting on somebody as a barista . It's looking at it as a client , absolutely Yep .
So you're like I have a job to do , let's get this on . So she questioned him about it and he said it was from a previous date . He had last weekend . So Stitch knew something was up , but she was already committed . She kind of had like her sixth sense about it but she was like all right , whatever , let's just get this over with .
So he had promised her more money , like just come out to cook with me , it'll be an hour and a half , let's just go . She remembers his trailer and how grubby and dirty it was , which should not surprise us based off of our previous episode talking about how his lifestyle was Right .
Makes sense . Based on his background , it makes sense . Yes .
One thing she said that freaked me out was she said in the back room there was a layer of plastic , plastic Down , with a sleeping bag on top .
Like for clarification purposes , like tarps were laid down on the floor and there was just like a sleeping bag on top of it .
That's how it seems , and so my mind goes straight to Dexter . I don't know if you've seen the show Dexter . Yeah , yeah , that's what it seemed like A layer of like that plastic .
Yeah , you're covering your crime , you're preparing to cover your crime . Yeah , no , that's that . Have a little class .
Yeah , exactly Exactly . She had asked him if she could borrow his phone so she could call her boyfriend at the time and let him know she would be home soon , while she was looking for the hotel number in the phone book old school right 1997 . Pickton came up behind her and slapped a handcuff on her left hand .
Now it sounds , from what I was understanding , that they had already done their business and she was just like okay , let me call him to let him know I'm on my way home .
Okay , kink , kink but not after the business . No , no , she knew something was wrong .
She knew something was wrong so she fought for her life because she had no idea what Picton was going to do . Was it rape , was it murder ? Was it both ? A butcher knife got involved and she said either he dies or I die . She was very honest about that . Yeah , she was stabbed four times before she was able to get away .
She ran to the road where a car saw her and stopped calling her an ambulance . Picton had stab wounds as well , and he was able to drive himself to the same hospital . How ironic , I know right , a key was found in picton's pocket that matched the handcuffs of stitches wrists of stitches wrist . Picton had four charges against him , which included attempted murder .
However and this will piss you off the charges were unlikely to stick because Stitch was a drug user , so the charges were not pursued . I'm sorry .
I have a lot of thoughts about this . Why is it no longer illegal to attempt to kidnap , rape , kill , etc . Somebody who happens to be using drugs ?
Why do they become less of a human than the rest of us and a woman of the night . That's a continuous pattern throughout this whole investigation . Like , oh well , they're on drugs . Like , oh , they're a prostitute .
I mean , I can acknowledge also that in the 90s the way that we as a society looked at those things was very different . But gross , Still gross .
It's awful , so picked him , was free to try again like it's it's horrendous to paint a picture and I'm sorry if you already said this he , he was a white man , right , and there were women of indigenous descent and so that also plays a key into it .
So it is extremely bothersome , yeah , that they were like , well , because this woman was on drugs , it's not even worth us pursuing . So it sounded like it was all up to the courts and I'm like , yeah , let's whatever this guy is now to be clear .
He's gotten away with criminal activity twice now , at least right that we're aware of , because there was the incident where he hit somebody with a car .
Yes , that we talked about in the previous episode and and his mom .
You are good , wasn't it his mom who threw the victim into the water and they ?
They didn't charge him because they realized that the person had actually drowned instead of being hit by the car yeah , but the mom wasn't charged , yep yep , because they had no idea of her involvement in it so now he has committed two felonies , at least plot , probably more never mind the fact that they have some type of um biker gang that's been involved on
the farm for however long
damn it sounded like he was . A lot of their friends were talking on this documentary which will be in the show notes . It's on amazon um , about how they really took advantage of willie and it's not making excuses for him , but just talking about his childhood and who he was .
It sounds like a lot of people took advantage of him even as a child , which is unfortunate . So they'd be like , hey , can I borrow a couple hundred bucks and he would just hand it to them . Yeah , he was very naive . It sounds like , yes , very , he was very . He had a childlike sense about him .
I think that also with his background , with being able to kill things so easily .
That probably didn't help , surely not ? I know we discussed in the last episode too that we weren't really sure , like if it was what he had been through that enticed him to be the way that he was , or if it was an always an instinct , because at first he didn't even want to butcher the animals . Right , he was .
He had a lot of compassion for those animals . He really cared about them . So there's definitely a big like nature versus nurture , exactly exactly so .
It sounds like without both pieces he wouldn't have become the man that he was and something else that I don't mention in my write-up .
But he kept like diaries , but they were verbal diaries , so he actually like recorded himself , so like they played some of it in the documentary , which is really interesting because you hear him kind of talking about his , his parents , and how he was raised and even how like they wouldn't even let him talk in the trial , which I thought was interesting too .
I'm getting ahead of myself , but it was interesting to hear his voice .
Yeah about this . Yeah , absolutely . His own first perspective . Yeah , there's no watering that down , right , that's actually how he felt in those moments , exactly .
Yeah , in 1997 , more than a dozen women disappeared from the Vancouver downtown east side . It continued into early 1998 as well . There was a hum around the city that something was going on , but because these women were prostitutes , drug users , some native , and also moved around a lot , people in law enforcement did not pay much attention .
Finally , it reached a point where they began to investigate the suspicious disappearances . I appreciate this part because when they brought the behaviorist in they wanted to establish a base rate of what average they have in years prior .
Which Baseline People after my own heart Right Girl , when they said this I was like oh you better have three to five data points for that baseline to be appropriate , which they did so from 1978 to 1994 , it was zero , one or two , okay . 1995 , on the trajectory went up dramatically . So then they asked why now ? Why have no bodies been found ?
Why only women ? They're asking all the right questions . The response to this from the police force was basically well , there is no evidence of homicide or a crime , so we will assign one more person to the missing persons unit and that's it .
So people are going missing way more people by their own data . Yep , and instead of saying you know , that is a great question , we should put some resources into that .
They're like I mean , I guess we can put some effort into this , but only one more person's , you know , body weight and they talk about like oh , we're short staffed and like I understand that , but People are missing .
You look at the data . Yeah , data doesn't lie , dude , it was . They showed the chart . There's something going on , right ?
There's something going on . It almost seems like an inside job when people are like no , no , no . You're like hmm , was there a political connection ?
here . A tip did come through , a woman named Lisa Yelts who was a friend of Willie's and she did cleaning for him around his trailer . She apparently told a friend of hers that she was finding women's clothing , their IDs and some blood on the clothing around Willie's trailer . When she asked Willie about it , he said to just burn it all .
When Lisa Yeltsin was approached about her conversation with the friend , she denied ever saying anything . So basically the friend was like yeah , like this was what I was told . And then Lisa's like nope , I have no idea what you're talking about . That never happened . How could you make up something like that ?
Right . Why would the friend make that up ? Where would that come from ?
exactly so . She's interviewed in the documentary and she's actually talked about a lot in the book and it sounds like she was very loyal to willie .
It sounds like they never really had a sexual relationship but like she would like cuddle with him , like that's something in the book , like they just would cuddle like he needed I don't know if it's more like a motherly affection and then she would clean around his apartment for him .
It does sound more motherly , and it would make sense because of the kind of odd relationship that he had with his mother to begin with .
Right . So , who knows
¶ Uncovering Willie Pikton's Disturbing Agenda
? Early 1999 , pickton was put on the police's radar as well as everyone else who was on the potential suspects list . Willie would employ people on his farm that would have drug addictions . One guy that actually lived in the trailer with Willie remembers an interaction they had . This is creepy .
He said he was watching TV in his room and Willie came in , sat down on his bed and said they should go get a hooker together . The guy said that's not my thing , no , thanks , whatever . Willie kept trying to nudge him to go , with no avail . The guy said that's not my thing , no , thanks , whatever . Willie kept trying to nudge him to go , with no avail .
Willie asked do you know what I do with hookers ? Willie proceeded to take out a belt , a wire and handcuffs . He then acted out how he would stroke the hair on these women , handcuff them and put his belt around their neck , telling them it's okay , it will be over now , did he have some kind of like , like agenda ?
he was living out like was he like saving people .
Quote unquote so in the book it actually talks about how , when willie would have these people on the farm , it was to help them . It was like , okay , I will help you get over your addiction and give you a job them .
It was like , okay , I will help you get over your addiction and give you a job , but then , if they didn't , it doesn't sound like he took that very well . So , yeah , it could have been some godlike . I was gonna say , was he a religious man ? I never read anything , he was religious at all , but sounds like he had some like godlike complex .
Yeah , to say like oh , it'll all be over soon just seems very , I'm gonna save you exactly yeah and I'm wondering if that's that's the kind of agenda that he had . So willie said you won't believe how much people bleed . I take them to the barn , hang them and gut them .
A few days after this interaction he was asked by two of Picton's men to have a talk in the trailer . He was then beat on and said he stole from the trailer . He said I never stole anything and he realized this was probably a scare tactic to keep him from talking .
He realized this job was not worth it and left knowing justice would come soon and he wanted no part of the farm anymore . He was also interviewed in the documentary , which was interesting . So this brings us to March 20th 1999 .
And Willie wanted a prostitute . Go figure , man , this seems like a really common .
This guy was like fiending for prostitutes , yeah , and he brought along his recent employee friend with him , lynn Ellingson . Male or female ? Female , okay , friend with him , lynn ellingson , male or female ? Female , okay , she was employed at the farm and was given a couple hundred a day that , unfortunately , she used on drugs . So she would be paid .
You know , she kind of worked in the office with faxes and everything and then she would just waste it along drugs . Okay , she said at points she was just high all the time . They pulled up next to a potential and really propositioned her . She looked to lynn and asked if she was going to the farm too , and she's like , yeah , I live there .
So she got in the truck thinking like , oh , another female's with him , like I'll just go . They had their drugs and alcohol and were looking for a good night . Willie took the prostitute to his room and Lynn went to her room . Something , though , told her to leave her room , so she went searching for them because she could not hear any noise .
She could not find them in the trailer , and when she looked outside she saw the light on the barn where he slaughtered his pigs . She went inside the barn where she found the woman hanging . Willie pulled her aside and threatened her with the same end if she said anything .
Out of fear , lynn agreed to keep it to herself , so just wanted the job to pay for her drugs , that's so sad . Yeah , that's so sad , that's I don't even know who to be more sad for in that situation , I know I probably the dead person .
But like , imagine being so deep in your own addiction that you're faced with this huge moral thing and it's like no , I , I would have to , I have to have this so badly that you know and that was long before like treatment was readily oh yeah , so the 90s was not a good time for treatment for that kind of thing .
The media started giving these missing women coverage , and although the police department said they have no evidence of a crime yet , the people kept insisting justice . A tip came through of a man who claimed to be a friend of Lynn's .
He said she told him of her experience with Willie Pickton that night , but because of his drug addiction he was not a credible storyteller . Again . What the fuck . Though this was still a good lead . So they asked him to come in and make a statement , though when he came to make the statement he was higher than a kite and so the statement would not be used .
The police decided to go to the source of Lynn herself . Lynn was no longer on the farm , but they did find her , convincing her to come in for an interview . Lynn knew exactly who told the police that tip and she denied ever saying that or ever seeing anything remotely like that .
The police could not keep her because she was not under arrest , so they released her . Something , though that was a slip of the tongue , was that she made police think . After was that , when the police were trying to establish rapport and understanding like I can't imagine how horrific this must have been I've seen autopsies before . A dead body's not easy .
She said yes , it was yellow , and gross police later realized no one would know that fat on a human body was yellow , unless you were a doctor or someone who has seen a person be cut open right . They asked lynn if she would do a lie detector test , and she agreed , but ended up disappearing before they could perform it .
Instead of fleeing , she could have changed the course of history . Picton would have caught two years earlier and 11 more women would possibly have not gone missing .
So to be clear , he didn't make her disappear . She left on her own . She did leave on her own For a minute there I was like oh no , no , she was like fuck this shit . I'm like , yeah , she ran . Well , she probably . I mean , if you had seen somebody image to somebody , I'm sure you're like . He told me if I said anything that this would be oh 100 .
Absolutely , that's a very believable piece of evidence .
Yeah absolutely autumn 1999 , picton was put in surveillance . Picton appeared inactive , not going anywhere . So one time picton was seen with someone in his car , he was pulled over and it was just his friend's 13 year old daughter . That's creepy , yeah , I don't love that immediately .
But the police cover was blown so they started looking at other suspects and women kept disappearing and and I know , I know that's frustrating I know hindsight is 2020 , but I'm like people just keep dropping the fucking right adult man is caught driving around with 13 year old girl .
Yeah , let's not think it's him , of course not january 19 , 2000 , picked and shows up at police headquarters . Apparently the police had been on the farm a couple times looking for willie but he was not there . Willie showed up at police headquarters with a friend on his own terms and they interviewed him for six and a half hours and relayed concerns they had .
He told the police he would come by the property whenever they wanted , and so the police showed up , went to his trailer , found nothing in plain sight that was visible , so nothing was suspicious .
In the documentary the Pig Farm that is on Amazon Prime right now , they interviewed several different women that knew Picton and some stayed on the farm at one point or another . One particular woman , dinah when asked about certain women being at the farm and never seen again , she would refuse to say their name and end the conversation .
At one point she walked off camera saying she was done having this conversation . That is not how someone that doesn't know something reacts . I am not blaming this person , but I'm sure she's scared , but that is not how someone reacts if they do not
¶ Uncovering Robert Pikton's Crimes
know anything .
It makes me wonder if he was also like an abusive person as well , beyond just the threats .
It makes me wonder if there was , you know , some kind of like . I would be interested to know . But there are some women that talk about him and it seems he was so docile .
I guess it probably depends on the person , right , yeah , because it seems like he mostly was targeting prostitutes .
Yeah , looking Seems like he mostly was targeting prostitutes . Yeah , looking at the timing of everything as well , this is the same time that the Green River killer was caught .
Which one was he again Remind us .
He was the guy in Seattle . Oh , okay , that did a bunch . I think it was . They said 48 women he killed Holy moly , that's a lot of .
that is a lot of people . That is a lot .
He was busy . Beginning of 2002 , willie was one of 40 suspects on a list . A new tip came in from Scott Chubb I'm sorry for your name , sir . He told the police that there were illegal weapons on Pickton's property and he was hoping he would get some type of monetary reward for this tip .
This tip had nothing to do with the missing women but since it was an eyewitness account , it got the police onto the property and without Pickton knowing they were coming . So February 5th 2002 , they found women's clothes , syringes , ids and inhaler with a missing woman's name on it . Now they would check the entire farm for evidence of murder .
Pickton got arrested and charged with two accounts of murder . I was like wait , what the fuck ? Only two ? Yeah , you're gonna be enraged . The police found pieces of bodies , teeth and personal items around the farm . Charges were changed to 26 accounts of murder . But you're gonna get more mad .
The judge thought the jury would get confused with that many charges , so he split the case into two separate trials .
What , december 2007 , the jury found picked and guilty of the first six murders , but in the second degree , not first , because it could not be established that he planned them I'm sorry if you've killed that many people like I mean , I can understand , like if you're enraged and something happens and you're in a psychological state and you kill someone and you're
like , okay , I mean that person didn't have any idea what was happening , something traumatic had happened , but this man killed how many ? 26 people and they're going to say he didn't have a plan Probably more .
That's only 26 that they could confirm , maybe I could say okay , maybe the first one he didn't kill intentionally or he didn't plan to kill , right , but then afterwards he was putting them all in the same places . He was doing the same thing . How is that not premeditated ? I know that's obviously premeditated . What state were we in again ?
We're in Vancouver , we're in Canada , oh , that's right . Something , though , that really enraged me Nothing ever came of the other 20 charges . What , why , don't know , didn't say . Cool , he was to serve a life sentence with no chance of parole for 25 years .
More evidence has been found since then , and more women are still missing , though , in a plot twist , as of this year , robert Pickton is dead . Though , in a plot twist , as of this year , robert picton is dead . He was assaulted in prison at 74 years old by an inmate back in may and died in the hospital . Not sure why this person decided to off him .
But I mean , considering there's such a train of people that he had killed , I mean there's a good chance that somebody was related or something yeah , there's a good chance that there was some revenge stuff happening there , but that's why we're picked it . That took a very different turn than I was expecting from the beginning .
I'm really glad it didn't take a cannibal place . I did have fears initially about the cannibal piece . I don't know what it is about . The about cannibals .
I just can't so john's the same way .
My brother , he can't I can stomach a lot , but the idea of I think it's more so not . I mean , it's really disgusting . But it's the people who trick other people into eating the victims , and that's what ? Yes , it really makes you question like whose house am I going to ? What are they ?
Feeding me everybody be secure about whose house you're going to and eating this looks like a meat .
I'm not sure about so funny story . This was real meat , but I just have to say it . So I dated this guy in high school that was like , strictly italian , strictly italian . So I go to his his actually he lived with his grandparents at the time went to his grandparents place and of course they're very italian and they wrap their meat in the twine .
Yeah , and I'm looking at this . I'm like what is this ? So like it's sausage ? I'm like , but why is there rope around it ? And like , oh , just snip it off ? I'm like , but there's , there's twine on my meat why is there ? twine on my meat so it was real sausage I mean to this day I hope I was .
I was only like 15 , like I had no idea what the fuck was going on .
But if it wasn't , it's well out of your system now .
I was just a naive white girl like I mean . I know italians are white too . I don't know where I'm going with that , but I'm just gonna stop right now . Anyways , that's why I picked it ,
¶ Mass Unresolved Cases
let's see . So I have the seven of clubs I had to think about that . It's actually unidentified . They don't have a name for this person . So sad . On june 4th 2014 , an unidentified black male body was discovered at town neck beach in sandwich affixed to a two-wheel dolly , the . The head , arms and legs were removed .
The victim was approximately 5'8 to 6' tall , 220 to 230 pounds . Had a three to four inch scar on his abdomen's right side . Associated with the body was a blue t-shirt printed with . I got serviced and Cranston Windustrial DNA testing resulted in the facial composite , which they do have on the card .
If you have any info about this case , please call 1-855-MA-SOLVE . That is so sad . That's so sad . Oh God . I'm really sorry to hear that , but if you have any information , there's a number .
¶ Engaging With Wicked Wanderings Community
Well , thank you , wanderers . Thank you , courtney , for having me .
I'm so glad I got to wrap up that gem of a case you're working on . I'm ready to move on .
I don't know where to go from this , though onwards and upwards , but honestly , if you guys have any suggestions , please email us at wickedwanderingspodcastcom or you can text us . If you go on , what's it best ?
Yeah , we don't get enough text messages . We don't .
Unfortunately , we can't text you back because for some reason , they don't allow us to Confidentiality . We will read them on here , we'll read them on the air , and Hannah needs water , apparently . Okay Well , thank
¶ Outro
you , wanderers . Thanks for listening today . Wicked Wanderings is hosted by me , hannah , and it's produced by Rob Fitzpatrick , music by Sasha N . If you enjoyed today's episode , don't forget to leave a rating and review and be sure to follow on all socials . You can find the links down in the show notes .
If you're looking for some really cozy t-shirts or hoodies , head over to the merch store . Thank you for being a part of the Wicked Wanderings community . We appreciate every one of you . Stay curious , keep exploring and always remember to keep on wandering .