¶ Spooky Weekend at Lizzie Bordenhouse
Hello Wanderers . I'm Hannah and I'm Jess , and this is Wicked Wanderings . Hello Hannah , hello Jess , hello John .
I'm so excited to be here .
So we want to talk about your experience at the Lizzie Bordenhouse that you went last weekend , correct and more .
Because I feel there should be . You're spooky weekend , actually Spooky weekend .
So for those who may not have tuned into the episode where I mentioned my spooky weekend with Hannah , we have an annual excuse me spooky weekend , not Wicked Wanderings weekend yet . I mean , yet he wasn't yet , yet , and last year was the first inaugural year we went to Salem , we did a lot of spooky things in Boston , we had a fabulous time .
And then this year we went to Providence , rhode Island , where I used to live and loved , but first and foremost was to go to Fall River to be able to see the Lizzie Borden houses , and we had a fabulous time . I think you can agree with that , hannah .
I had an absolute blast , but I wasn't expecting how commercialized the area was . Yeah , it was kind of disappointing in that respect .
Second Street in Fall River was , so you say , commercialized . It's like an industrial park . It's this beautiful like early 19th century house which we can talk about a little bit in a second , but it's like not an attractive area . There's like the most attractive thing next door was the parking garage we parked next to . It was rough .
It was an eclectic group of people that was going on the tour too , and you seem to have the people that are like I'm there justifying paranormal activity I'm here because I want to see the ghost of Lizzie Borden or you also have people that are like this is history . I want to know the facts of what happened here .
So there was definitely like a spectrum of people .
When I went , there was a group from California and they were kind of annoying . But then a girl . She was like oh , I love Lizzie Borden . I've loved her since I was little , but I also have rat skulls in my room .
Yeah , so it was kind of odd , which will be really awkward .
if she's by some chance , I'm optimistic .
I don't mind being weird . I draw the line at human remains or animal remains in my bedroom . Not to throw shame on anyone who might do that .
I mean , you have something against fake skulls .
No , no , no , no . You remember a couple of months ago , you know , you came to New York City to see me and it was like I absolutely want to see , like I want to , I want to skull for the house and I'm like , oh , I know this great little place in the village and they actually have human remains for sale . And she's like no way .
And of course our mother was like please don't go there .
They do not do that .
That's really strange . I can't believe they have a place in New York City . It was like it's totally legal , I swear . And we went like I showed you the human skulls and things and you were like that's cute , I'd rather have mine made out of ceramic . I do not need a real human skull .
I didn't know this place existed .
Oh , they're expensive , Very expensive , it's like a bougie creepy place .
I'm trying to remember . It's called something like evolution or something .
It's evolution ? I think it's really it's cool . It's a cool place . It's very neat , very eccentric . But I'd rather have my skull from home goods for $20 .
But how do they get the remains ?
So the laws in the United States about owning human remains are actually incredibly loose .
But not with our booze , which is really strange .
So like you can own human skulls and human skeletal frames pretty easily and you don't have to be like Yale University Medical Center , you could be Joe Schmo on Second Street or River Jeffrey Dahmer , just boil them in your kitchen , exactly so we went back . It was so exciting . We will still let you know this .
There's an extended tour to view the basement which I know , jesse , you had recommended . We did go to . Yes , which was an additional fee to see the basement , and I'm like , all right , we're never going to go back , I don't need to see Lizzie Borden house twice .
And so I was like , fine , I'll pay the incremental , like $12 for two people to go see their basement . And it was a really interesting tour . I think our tour guide was fabulous . He was much more grounded in like historical facts than like ooh like the lights like , and you've only been there for two years . He was great .
I wish I remembered today I was the same guy that I saw . It's kind of short but older .
Yes , with dark hair Kind of beard glasses no no glasses , but he was great .
He was wonderful , he really was .
And what I really appreciated was that he kind of laid down here's the front parlor , here's the family parlor where Andrew was murdered , here's the staircase . All right , that's the guest room . Like you could kind of see somebody laying on the floor if , like , the blankets weren't long .
But then you really define this door between Lizzie and Emma's rooms and the room where Andrew and his wife lived was completely cut off , like it was like a duplex .
So if there's somebody to be in the house like an alternative , like third party murderer to be in the house and roaming around would be an extraordinary theater , a theory rather , which I really appreciated .
I did too . After doing all the research on Lizzie , I was pretty surprised with how small the house is , I know you told me just how small the house was . But it was tiny . It was very tight , but the thing was I felt comfortable in the home .
You would .
Like I didn't feel any external force of evil at all .
I didn't either .
I would sleep there , no problem .
I love how you say that , because I was totally riled up and I was like yeah . Maybe at some point we'll go and rent a room and see it for real . But I was nervous , but we did not discuss it while we were in the house and when we left I was like but did you feel ? I was like I didn't feel anything . I did not feel anything .
Even in the basement I was like , okay , I took a picture of the wall they wanted to take a picture of . People are like I don't want that on my phone .
I'm like it's not my dad . They painted it in a certain way for the face to show up Right .
I did not . Yeah , there was a murder that took place here , but could you liven it up with some fresh flowers and I could cut a paint .
But also I was kind of extra surprised by the fact that , as somebody who knows historic buildings and historic homes , particularly that kind of Greek revival style from the early 19th century , the materials used in the home were cheap . Even the best parlor was cheap molding , incredibly basic on basic on basic .
The back hallways that were used for like the kitchen and Bridget would have known really well going up and down stairs between the floors Extra , extra cheap pine that is a cheap on cheap house in the Greek revival style and I know that Andrew bought it . He didn't build it , but it was like an extra imitation of like .
This was a cheap house and if I knew that my father was worth a few million dollars and I thought we should be living up on the hill on Highland Avenue and we were living in this really extraordinarily cheap home in a middle class area of people I believe were below me , which were the Irish Catholics , I'd be really upset too .
So it was an extraordinary tour .
What I appreciate that you actually pointed out . So we are all about the pear trees , right ?
All these people eating pear trees .
The tour guide gave this absolutely wonderful rendition of how John Morse gave this whole spiel of why he wasn't in the house , how he would never be the person to murder anyone , and then had a couple pears . Jonathan pointed out the pears in the kitchen which I didn't even notice .
Yeah , what I think is so interesting is that one of her alibis was like oh , I was out in the barn eating pears for hours , great fine . But , Uncle Morse is also seen by a member of the police after the murders have taken place and there's a crowd around the house on Second Street .
It's calmly eating a fucking pear and he said I had one pear , All right , this is weird Like .
This is the house you're staying in , you're supposed to come back for lunch and you're just hanging out in the backyard eating a pear and there's documented testimony from police officers saying oh no , he didn't have one pear , he had at least three pears , like that's a lot of fiber .
Yeah , leaning against a tree eating three pears like a weirdo .
But in this kitchen that they renovated I don't know if they did it on purpose or by accident I hope they did it on purpose this is like early 1990s kitchen that they put into the house . There's pears on all of the cabinets .
Really so . That's how you open them is with pears .
It was a beautiful kind of tribute to the pear trees that used to be in the backyard .
That's cool , I didn't notice that . Yeah , leave it to Jonathan to notice that .
But I do not feel any presence there .
No .
I was expecting to when I didn't .
I was very comfortable . Yeah , same . And I'm wondering if at night it would be different , when you're there and like the darkness and your mind misses with you .
I also wonder about the respect that you go in there and what you're looking for . Amy Bruni taught me this .
So shout out to Amy Bruni , because if you're going in there wanting to be scared and freaked out from this mass murder that could be in the house , of course you're going to Freak yourself out , you're gonna get in your own head , but going in there , historically speaking , you're wanting to know about the family .
Let's say you know Andrew and Abby are in there . Okay , well , I rather know about them than freak out about the murders . Yeah , I don't . I would still love to go back , though , and do a show .
Oh show show .
But should we move on to talk about an area where we were during our trip that we really felt a ?
lot of presence . Oh yes oh , I have heard this .
We visit a lot of places . So we started with Lizzie Gordon's house on a second Avenue and we went up to the hill and we saw Maple Croft , which is beautiful . We saw her tombstone in the local cemetery and then we drove down to Providence and stayed overnight .
I had some cocktails , had a good time , and then the next day was a big driving day and we headed down to Wickford , which is its own kind of spooky location HP Lovecraft . Hp Lovecraft I completely forgot .
¶ Exploring Lovecraft's Legacy in Rhode Island
So Hannah and I are big fans of HP Lovecraft , which is like the original father of science fiction , which until recently he was kind of like poo poo , just kind of this weird 19th century author . I think he's pretty cool . He stuffs pretty wild .
And it's short . It's amazing how short his material is , but still make you feel a story . Why so ? You might only read six pages and you're like , oh my god , what the hell did I just read ? Like that was freaking crazy , because sometimes it takes an author .
And don't get me wrong , I love Stephen King for everything he is but you take a novel like it that's 1100 pages , I feel like HP . Lovecraft is then six pages . Yeah , it's like totally freaks you out .
Hmm , I mean , stephen King has even said HP Lovecraft was an inspiration .
Mm-hmm .
And just fair game . As a caveat , hp Lovecraft was absolutely an anti-semite and he was also Anti -immigration , so you will see that is threads through some of his work .
I didn't know that , so that's .
One of my favorite works is the horror at Red Hook and it's all about the lower unwashed masses in quote-unquote Red Hook , which is southern Brooklyn , which is where I live , which is very Tony now , but at the time it was Philip immigrants and he was very anti immigrants it was one of the reasons he hated living in New York City was because there were so
many immigrants . That's why he went back to Providence . So fair warning . But at the same time as being a complex , very difficult , wrong man , you also had beautiful work .
That we should learn from .
So we went to his grave in Swamp Point Cemetery in Providence on October the 13th . Beautiful cemetery gorgeous cemetery it was .
If you want to be buried like , that's the place to go For all those weirdos out there , think about their death place .
It was a gorgeous cemetery and we were not the only ones . There was a little bit of a line to show up to .
Virginia , that were ahead of us and we kind of just wait a turn and then we I kind of drove hand around to see a bunch of the spots he went to and one of my favorite parks that overlooks the city in Providence , where he did a lot of his writing , some of the buildings he absolutely hated .
Do my telling our wanderers ?
and just about the Roger Williams tree , oh , I feel like this could be its own episode again .
So there's a park , prospect Park , in Providence , rhode Island , which is a gorgeous , famous park that is high up on the east side of Providence , up on a hill , and when you get to the park it's very small , it's very slim , it looks over the whole city , so it's absolutely beautiful . Day or night , especially in the winter , it's absolutely gorgeous .
And there's a big monument to Roger Williams who , of course , was the founder of Rhode Island in Providence plantations colony after being thrown out of Massachusetts Bay . So when we're originally talking about the founding of Providence , it was supposed to be very equal . So everyone was along this very big Providence River , which is only a slimmer of a creek now .
Everyone was allowed the same portion of the river and then , going up the hill , everyone had very long , skinny tracks of land up the hill . Mm-hmm so it was all equitable so that everybody had the same kind of frontage on the river .
And then you still had space for a house and a shop and Woods to cut down wood in a place for your family , burying ground in place for gardens . The area where Prospect Park is now Was originally Roger Williams property . So fast forward until like the 1920s 1930s . They're building this park .
It's originally Roger Williams property , you know , in the 1600s and they're digging up what was Roger Williams apple orchard and they come across what ended up being an apple tree roots in the shape of a person , in a human body , like a , basically a casket .
So what had happened was the apple trees , the orchard on Roger Williams property had basically Scurried into the family burying plot , including the casket of Roger Williams , the founder of Rhode Island colony , and had kind of subsumed his body .
Oh , my god . So they dug it up .
Roger Williams is now a whole bunch of very lovely looking varnished applewood and it's now located when they were creating the park . It's now been subsumed and moved over to the local historical society . You .
That's crazy .
It's crazy . Talk about living forever Now and now furniture , yeah , basically .
But it's a gorgeous park and it adds to the legend of HP Lovecraft . Like sitting up there on the park and like writing amazing stories . They're super weird . I love him . And then we drove down to , as I mentioned , wickford , which is creepy and cute and lovely . He sat down in its own way .
We went over to Mercy Brown's grave , who was the quote unquote the first American vampire . Wargold had tuberculosis but they took her up , put her down , took her up , put her down , took her . Anyway , she's right off the road , well worth the visit and then for a very early dinner .
Wait , so I can talk about Mercy Brown for a second .
Oh sorry , go ahead , that's , ok .
So I feel like Mercy Brown was in a location I didn't expect her , because it was just this tiny little cemetery and this tiny little church . But I have such a soft spot for Mercy Brown because the poor thing yes , she was known as like the first vampire and like , oh , what a cool story . But her whole family was dying of TB . She finally dies of TB .
It is too cold for them to dig in the ground , so they leave her in a barn of some sort to dig a grave for her in the spring . And then they start thinking that , oh , other people are still dying of TB . What if she's sucking the life out of other people ? Let's see if she's still alive .
And so they basically start mutilating her body to see if it's still bleeding as it should . And because it's been preserved because of the cold , yes , it is showing signs of .
Basically she's been frozen , yeah , yeah .
So no decomposition .
She's been Exactly . She's been preserved by freezing Right Of a New England winter .
Thanks , for some reason Don't get that . They're getting their own heads and medicines now , like it is now , and this poor girl's body is mutilated . She's like , oh my God , we have to . I think they in the end they burn her heart or her spleen . It's one of those , just to make sure that she's dead .
But it's just , it's so terribly sad , terribly sad and they finally they end up . They end up burying her . But it's such a sad , sad tale .
There was what I found a little bit of comfort in was the cemetery is not like overrun .
It's not , yeah , it's on the side of this road , this little church , in this little graveyard , it's definitely not where HP Lovecraft is buried . It's not doesn't have , like this , beautiful pond and beautiful statues and trees . There's no trees , it's a dirt road .
And it's .
she's just there with her family , though , and then all the paying respects , though you know like somebody had left and stones and yeah , somebody had brought , obviously within the last day or two before we were had left roses at each family members tombstone . Yeah .
And it wasn't like . I mean when you go to Lizzie Borden's grave there's all sorts of stuff over Lizzie Borden and like coins and toys and many hatchets and very odd things left at her grave .
But for me hatchets seriously .
But for Mercy Brown it almost felt like all of you need kindness and rest , Even a few hundred years later .
Right , Like that's what we're hoping for . It was just kind of like a beautiful thing for the family because it was such a tragic disease and a tragic thing to happen to Hall one family . Yeah it's crazy . So , mercy Brown , I found out a lot from Laura , obviously there . Thank you , erin Mankey , for that bedtime story .
But after that after a lovely drink up in a protected village . We went to an early dinner up in . I'm gonna get this wrong chat Chassette Chew sit .
Juice it , a place in Rhode Island we never heard of the chassette .
I'm so sorry if you live there , but I don't know where this is . Continue without me as I look up .
No , no , we need to know the name .
Don't put me on the spot , just took so . The tavern on main Mm-hmm was originally built like in , I think , the early 18th century . It's like a stagecoach in and apparently it is known as the most haunted Building to pass it , to pass it , to patch it there . Yeah , no one is .
The most haunted building in Rhode Island Is this the one where you wanted to booth with the ghost . Yes so is this where you had the week Creepy feelings ?
So you got the booth nice . I was very grateful because they said it could only be used for four people and we're only two , but we had dinner at four o'clock , so but they didn't tell us it was the haunted booth . No , I had requested it .
I'm not sure if we got it and it wasn't until we were sitting down having a glass of wine that they said , yes , this is the haunted booth , but we felt things before they confirmed it .
So when they sat us down , mm-hmm , my brother sat once , I . I sat on the part of the booth that's on the wall . Yes and I was like , okay , this , this feels a little weird , like I'm feeling a little funky , and so I actually asked the waitress . I was like , so which one's the haunted booth ? She's like you're sitting in it .
I was like , okay , that explains the really weird feeling I'm getting right now . And I was like , well , do you know the name of the ghost ? Do you know anything about it ? And the poor thing , like it was only like her second year . She was a lovely waitress , absolutely . She's like let me find out some information for you .
So she comes back and says her name's Elizabeth or Beth , and I was like , okay , I'm like she is definitely . She was definitely next . So I actually scooted over . So I was kind of like my brother was in the middle of his side of the booth . Yeah and I was kind of pushed over and I was like you are welcome , beth , like as long as you want .
I'm having shrimp cocktail on the glass of wine , order you what you want .
Right , I was like you just chill , listen to our conversation . It actually got to a point and I didn't tell John this during lunch where I thought I had to get up Because it was such an overpowering feeling to wear . I don't know if this is normal , but I actually felt the feeling up until the next morning like I had breakfast .
Now I was like , okay , is this gonna Disappear ? Like what is going on .
And then finally it left , but it was heavy , heavy and I know just heavy and what I kind of appreciate is it's kind of just a local place , like they don't Ratchet it up like the Lizzie Borden house or Salem , massachusetts or any other haunted location . It's just kind of like a wayside place and there weren't a lot of a lot of locals .
I think it was only locals . We were also there four o'clock . Yeah and us . Mm-hmm and we both . What I appreciated was that we both felt the same presence of a woman In the corner on your side of the booth , without speaking to each other .
Yeah , cuz we didn't talk about so we got in the car . Really yeah .
I a hundred percent felt something there . But it's in strange contrast to the House and Second Street where I felt absolutely nothing , and it was like is there something wrong with me ?
That's what I thought at Lizzie Boarden's house . I was like is there something wrong with me ? Like am I not feeling ? And then , when I felt that at the Tavern on Main , I was like , okay , this is what people are talking about when they talk about a heavy feeling . This , this I get . This was not at the Boarden household .
See , that's what I experienced kind of when I did the ghost tour at the Genuine House in Getty's .
Brute .
And it's like I knew that someone was behind me . I could feel there was a presence on the stairs , and so that's what I gauge .
all my other experiences , absolutely yeah .
It's because I know , without a shadow of a doubt . I was feeling a presence and then the difference in the feeling on the two sides of the house . The first one was kind of ominous and creepy and then the second side of the house was peaceful . And so when I go into places like Lizzie Boarden and I just don't feel , anything .
It's so hyped up to the point where , like , all right , let's feel , but you know what ? I bet you like a hundred dollars if Maple Crop was open . People would feel something in there Possibly . You know what I mean , but it's not right now , which I respect , but there's so much hype around the Boarden household .
It's for all of that , nothing . Yeah , I think we should go stay overnight .
I'm comfortable with it , and then we'll have this conversation again .
¶ Haunted Restaurant and Spooky Weekend
So why is the booth haunted Like ? What is the story of that restaurant ?
That's a really good question . So I thought it was revolutionary . But it actually happens after that . So America's new nation , and it ended up coming down to a lot of like local politics .
So Burr's Rebellion happened around there where one politician one over another in the new state of Rhode Island the existing politician wouldn't give way and he sent troops down and there was a major shootout . But your people got hurt . I don't know if anyone died , but it was just .
Their explanation was that there were a few centuries of life and living over this building , everything from a stagecoach and then into a boarding house to a restaurant . It was just a lot of human traffic all over this building back and forth over years . That created this kind of presence wanting to stay . And you know I can't exactly blame her .
Elizabeth is like maybe she's from the 18th century .
They didn't really explain like who she was or who they connected her with the waitress , didn't know much about her , which is fine . Like I feel like we gave Elizabeth to kind of just be who she is Like . If you want to hang out here , like that's fine , like that's your prerogative .
She didn't feel menacing .
No , she just had a heavy presence .
She's like I'm here and I'm going to stay here .
I'm like okay this is magical .
The place was so old that I don't know if you've been to the waitly in , that's in waitly mass but , like when you look up at the ceiling where you have the upper floors , like it's these bowed pieces of wood that are hanging . It's like , oh my God , is it going to collapse ?
Like very , very , very old , which I kind of can respect a place like that , but just kind of keeps the look of it .
And she just kind of I can kind of respect you just wants to hang around and see what's going on and what better place to still feel like you're part of the everyday life than a tavern on Main Street and you can look out the window . She had a great view and she had a corner table .
And I think if you can have the locals from a place like that , it feels more like home , unlike the Lizzie Borden house where you're having people from all over literally the world . And it's like , oh the shame spiel all over again . I don't want to hear this and they go away , which I don't blame them . They got the wrong story .
I know who killed me , you know . But with her she's like oh , I just want to hear these people are from and hear the local stories and be a part of it again . I mean , what do we know , right ? But this is what I like to think of .
I will also say that when we left because it was still early , we still had a bit of a drive back to Western Massachusetts and the GPS kept changing over and over again and that's an area of connecting Rhode Island to .
Connecticut to Massachusetts .
I do not know , and there's no major highways . So we get on this little back road and I'm probably a little faster than I really need to and I'm like I just kind of want to get out of here .
This is really weird and I'm still feeling a lot of presence from the tavern and then all of a sudden my GPS is like you need to go right turn , right turn right , turn right and there's a giant science thing like State Park XXY , whatever it was called .
And so I zoom back around and I'm like we're going through the State Park and hands like I really don't want to , it was scary . I was like we're going to go through it and we start going through and it's a little one lane road with nothing on it and nights coming , yeah .
These boughs of trees just make it darker . Covered the road and there's a sign that's saying State Park is closed because of triple E and we're like we get halfway down this road and there's a giant block in the road .
Yeah , because it was because of triple E . Yeah , oh no . This is like . This is where the story ends . Wicked Wanderings is now no longer a podcast .
It's a unsolved mystery there is an episode on the podcast we visit so many creepy places over this weekend , and this is what's scaring us .
No , no , no , no , no , no , no no , I got to go home so , but thankfully , like we were able to get through it and it was flying down the road and we finally got to MassPikes , thank God .
That's crazy , it was rough yeah .
Well that's awesome so how was our spooky weekend ?
It was fun . I can't wait for our first annual Wicked Wandering spooky weekend .
I think that's going to start to entail you at some point .
We have to yes .
Jonathan's really good at planning trips , I'll give him that you plan it , I'll show up .
I'll be spooky .
Thanks for letting us chat about our spooky weekend on this special episode .
Yes , I'm glad you guys enjoyed it . It's awesome . I don't know how to end this .
Editor .
Producer .
Thanks for listening today . The show wouldn't be possible without our amazing producer and editor , rob Fitzpatrick , who works tirelessly behind the scenes to bring you the best content and a special thanks to Tyga Soundprod for providing the captivating intro music , cinematic Intro 24 .
And of course , we can't forget the hauntingly beautiful outro music , rhinos theme , composed by Kevin MacLeod .
If you enjoyed today's episode , make sure to leave a rating and review on our favorite podcast platforms like Spotify , Apple and YouTube . Your feedback means the world to us .
Also be sure to follow us on Instagram for behind the scenes glimpses , updates and more thrilling content . You can find us at Wicked Wandering's podcast .
Thank you so much for listening and being part of our Wicked Wandering's community . We appreciate each and every one of you .
Stay curious , keep exploring and always remember to keep on wandering .