Last week, we dove into part one of the absolutely horrifying story of the Wichita horror, and today we're continuing on the story with part two. So be sure to listen to part one so we can dive into the rest of this wicked case together.
My name's Ben, I'm Nicole, and you're listening to Wicked and Grim, a true crime podcasting.
The following podcast and material intend more mature audience listener discretion. Not too shabby, not too shabby at all, how goes it. We didn't talk about anything that we needed to go over before we started this case, so this little intro is just being completely impromptly done.
You looked at me so oddly when you were doing your intro, and I was supposed to be like, I'm no cool. Would I do it wrong? No, it was just I wasn't ready.
You weren't ready. Yeah, that's what it was.
I was actually dazing off, but I woke up right before I needed.
I was needed to cap back to reality.
I'm actually drinking above Bubbly. Yeah, Bubbly. I'm drinking a Bubbly too, And because they have some damn good flavors nowadays, they do the bubbly peach. I'm doing watermelon like they're good.
They are good, and honestly not gonna lie. I kind of wanted to be here, but I'm gonna be on the golf course all day tomorrow and I'm probably gonna have a few then, so I'm saving it for that. Probably I will be Let's let's be honest.
I think I have a challenge for you. No, okay, I was like Joe golfing one day without drinking.
Yeah, I knew that would be it. I knew that would be I can't that's that's not golfing.
See, Okay, I'm kind of odd because I okay, I would be just as fine golfing with like a drink or a bubbly like it would make, or a pop even like it would make no difference to me whatsoever.
I mean it, it's close for me, it's not quite the same. Like for me, it's like if you go out and you mow the lawn, you sit back and you just like, ah, like a cold refreshing beer just hits the spot in those certain moments. And there's something about golfing where like a beer just hits the spot in that moment.
I don't know. Yeah, I guess I just don't have that. Like I just a cold, refreshing drink.
It's the same to me because it's totally fair. Yeah, there's times where, yeah, a beer isn't going to do it for me. I need like a bubbly or like a can of coke, Like cann of coke hits in certain moments, you know, yeah, or an iced tea.
I used to be like that a little bit more with wine. Like I'd come home when I had my day job and be like, holy shit, like I need a glass of wine. But I don't really have that so much anymore. Working for myself really well, that's a good thing. So apparently my job doesn't make me want to drink.
Maybe I need to be doing more at the home to be making you want a drink. I'm not doing my husband duties.
Oh gosh.
Anyways, we got a few patrons to thank and shout out this week for joining over on Patreon, So shout out to Junafish, Catherine Davies, Susie DeHart, Shauna. I can't tell if it's an iron L. It's either a lowercase L or a capital I. Okay, So SHAWNA I'm gonna say Shauna and Julian Luellie, but most of all because I love this name they used to sign up fine girl Brandy right on. So shout out to all you guys who signed up a Patreon and are supporting our show. We appreciate it, Thank you so much.
Yeah, next week is a Patreon exclusive. Oh right, August next week.
Oh my gosh, crazy time is flying by.
It's wild like it's pretty much winter.
Just kidding, kidding, I'm pretty sure we're saying that every week at this point. We're just dreading that coming our way. Oh boy, do you remember the case that we're doing, the witch Ta Horror?
Yeah? Yeah, I mean I definitely put a little bit on it out of my brain because it was terrible.
It's one of those cases where, yeah, you kind of try and forget about it because man, it just it's so.
Yeahri fine, I think I said this last episode, But to like think that we live in a world that people will do this to another person is it's it's devastating.
Yeah, yeah, devastating is a really good word. Yeah. Well, I got a little sum up for you guys, to sum up part one. If you listen last, you know, last episode on Tuesday or sorry, Friday, today's Tuesday. If you listen on Friday and you got a couple days in between and you didn't just binge both back to back,
here's little sum up for you. So in part one, we had five friends who were attacked in their Wichita home by two brothers by the name of Reginald and Jonathan Carr on December fourteenth, in the year two thousand. The brothers forced their way in at gunpoint, held the group hostage, sexually assaulted them, forced them to sexually assault each other as well, and then forced them to withdraw
money from ATMs. After hours of physical and sexual abuse, they drove all five victims to a snow covered field, made them kneel, and shot them execution style in the back of the head. Four out of the five of
them were killed. Holly was the sole survivor. She was shot in the back of the head but miraculously survived because the bullet deflected enough off a hair clip that she was wearing, and then she was subsequently run over by their vehicle as well that they had stolen from the group of friends, and she also survived that while playing dead.
Yeah, that's incredible.
She then walked over a mile for help, gave Pliefs enough information to start the manhunt, and by the next day both the car brothers or count Reginald at his girlfriend's apartment and Jonathan at his own girlfriend's mom's house. The stolen truck, engagement ring and other stolen items helped tie this whole thing together. And here we have them in custody. That's where we left off.
Well. And the incredible thing too that just kind of popped back into my mind was Hally how when she got to that house she needed to ensure that she told the story before they went about calling the police and stuff, because in case she didn't make it or something. She was quite worried, right, yes, that this needs to be out there and someone needs to know what happened. Like, oh, that's incredible.
Yeah, so Holly is one hundred percent or badass of the day, honestly, Like, holy shit. So with that all being ZETI ready to dive into part two.
I think so, but I also am very confused. I just realized I wonder why they drove them off to the field like that and didn't just you know, kill them in the house.
Well, they did go back to the house to do some more robbing.
Oh maybe they just wanted them there and didn't want to deal with dead bodies.
I guess a way of disposing them.
Yeah, I mean it's lucky for Holly, really.
That's true. And honestly as well. You know, gunshots out in a little bit more of a field where people less likely to hear it rather than you know, a suburban area or something.
Touche. So yeah.
Now, with Jonathan and Reginald Carr both in custody, investigators began the painstaking process of connecting all the horrifying pieces of their crime spree together. Detectives presented images of brothers in lineups to Anne Wilenta. Now. Anne was a fifty five year old librarian and a talented cellist. She was currently still fighting for her life in the hospital after
being shot days before this massacre occurred. It was December eleventh, in the year two thousand, during the car Brothers crime spree, when she was following her usual driving daily routine on her way home from the orchestra practice, when Reginald and John Carr approached her vehicle allegedly under the pretense of seeking help. She rolled down her car window. One of the brothers then shot her three times in her vehicle, causing severe spinal injuries.
I just have to say, I freaking hate that. That is like why people are not helpful.
Yeah, they're terrified.
Shit like that happening exactly.
Now. She was able to immediately immediately identify Reginald out of the images that she was presented, and she identified him as the man that she had seen shoot her. Now, this is an important detail to note. It's important that we note that Anne also pointed out other individuals as potentially being the second man she saw, though that person that she specifically pointed to is being I think that's the other guy. That person was actually imprisoned at the
time of the shooting. This detail later highlighted the challenges inherent in witness testimonies. Right, But despite that, Reginald's identification was clear, and it became increasingly evident that the car brothers were indeed responsible for this brutal attack.
U huh okay now.
Hawley also later confirmed Reginald's identity once she was well enough to be formally interviewed. Now, as DNA, hair, blood and saliva samples were collected from the two brothers. Jonathan struck up a chilling conversation with Detective Kelly Otis, one of the officers that was on the case. Now, Detective Otis recounted that Jonathan inquired about the other quadruple homicide that had occurred on December seventh. Now, for reference, this
homicide had nothing to do with this one. It was just like, oh my god, in a week span, there was two quadruple homicides, right, yeah, But he asked what had happened to the two men that were arrested in that case. Now, Detective Otis calmly informed him that they were charged with capital murder, which he then had to explain to Jonathan meant they could face the death penalty
if they were convicted. Showing a disturbing curiosity and seemingly anticipating a similar fate for himself, right, Jonathan then asked how an execution occurs, to which he was told it would be by lethal injection. There was a small pause in a moment. Later, he asks, quote, do you feel anything? Detective Otis simply replied, quote, we've never been able to ask anyone, Oh gosh, which honestly is one of the most badass lines I've ever heard from an investigator, Like.
Damn, kind of like it's I mean, he's being very honest, but it's kind of a slap in the face a little bit too.
Hey, yeah, like, holy shit, we've never been able to ask anyone.
Yeah, I's thinking quick on your feet there, really yeah, So because I feel like a lot of people are like, I don't know, yeah, but yeah, his answer was great.
I just picture him looking at him, not blinking, just monotone, and be like, we've never been able to ask anyone, Like that's what I.
Pictured, Just like, oh fuck yeah, just like, clench your ash cheeks a little bit.
I feel like you brought that to a new level. But you're not wrong. Now. Tragically, after clinging to life for days, an Wallenta would pass away in the hospital.
Oh no.
She would officially become the fifth victim of the Car Brothers rampage and suffered complications from her injuries that led her led to her death on January two, two thousand and one, due to pulmonary embolism.
So did they what was the reason for even hurting her? They didn't really have a reason.
No, okay, well just rolled down her window, and they shot her three.
Oh my gosh, okay.
Now. The investigation meanwhile continued to build an undeniable case against these two men. When a handgun was discovered along Route ninety six near the snowy field where the four friends had been executed, the Kansas State Crime Lab confirmed it was in fact the same weapon used in the murders of Jason, Aaron, Brad and Heather. Crucially, it was also linked to Anne's murder and even the shooting of Andrew Shriver's tires after his abduction and robbery. Now I
did mention Andrew in the first part briefly. In part one, he saw Reginald's face in the news and instantly recognized him and phoned the police to report his incident. Now Andrew was a twenty three year old assistant ball coach at Wichita State University. On December eighth, in the year two thousand, he was just finished running errands. He stopped at a convenience store and was about to head home.
As he got into his car, Reginald and Jonathan Carr approached him, one of them pointing a gun at him. They forced him into the passenger seat of his own vehicle, and took control and took off. Over the next couple of hours, they drove Andrew around Wichita at gunpoint, forcing him, like the others, to withdraw money from multiple ATMs. They also robbed him of his personal belongings, including his wallet, watch, and cell phone. Now throughout the ordeal, Andrew remained calm,
answered their questions and complied with their demands. He also later stated that the cars kept asking him questions, questions like do you believe in God? What would you do if someone had a gun to your head?
Things like that, Yeah, that would kind of alarm you.
Yeah, a little bit by Now, Eventually, after taking his money, the two brothers let him go, leaving him unharmed, but shooting out the tires of his vehicle as they left, presumably as means of him not getting to police as fast and giving them a chance to get away.
That's surprising that they didn't kill them.
It is now, as I mentioned, the gun was now officially tied to this event too, because I mean they shot all the tires, right. So, while the full extent of Reginald and Jonathan's crimes during this period was never definitively determined, there was now no doubt the brothers were responsible for these three separate incidents. Hundreds of items of physical evidence directly linked the two brothers to the crimes.
A wide array of belongings stolen from the Birchwood Drive apartment, including a TV, various items of clothing, a credit card, they were found in both their homes. One of the most damning pieces of evidence was the diamond engagement ring taken from the Birchwood home, which was found right in Jonathan's pocket when he was apprehended. And that ring was of course it belonged to Jason and he was going to use it to propose to Holly.
Yeah, just brutal.
Yeah, he stole that right in front of them. Just didn't care, not a care in the world.
Well, yeah, Holly obviously had no idea about it, and it should have been just a magical time for them, And yeah, they took that away.
Prosecutors even located a watch stolen from Andrew Shibbers at the home of one of the brothers as well. Okay, now, beyond the stolen possessions, forensic analysis painted a stark picture of the situation. Investigator Gary Miller testified that a shoeprint found at the Birchwood Drive apartment was a definitive match
to Jonathan's shoe. He also meticulously detailed how the gun found near the highway could be directly tied to all three of these incidents, though he clarified that the gun itself couldn't be directly linked to either of the car brothers specifically, I mean they didn't own the guns or register or anything, right, So yeah. Jonathan's DNA and seamen were also found at the Bird to a Drive apartment,
as well as swabs taken from Holly. Additionally, Heather's blood was found in Reginald's clothing, though Reginald's lawyer later attempted to argue that this blood could have transferred onto him after coming into contact with his brother, suggesting it didn't prove his presence at the crime scene.
Okay, did they did it? Just jump over? I mean they're probably thinking saying that they hugged or something, but.
Well, it's more so I mean, we get into a little bit later, but the brothers, basically their defense each point at the other.
So seriously basically.
But we'll get into that now. Even those close to the brothers provided key testimony. Tronta Adams, Jonathan's girlfriend, testified that she had met up with both brothers on the night of Andrew's kidnapping and again on the night that Anne Molenta was shot. On that second night, she claimed Jonathan gave her a black handgun, one that matched the one that was later found, and asked her to clean it and keep it for him.
Okay here, I thought she was maybe giving an alibi, but not really no, okay now.
She further stated that both brothers had visited her on the day of the massacre as well, leaving around nine pm, with Jonathan calling her around three am that night. With this whole sequence of events, it lines up perfectly with the timing of the murders and everything that occurred. Reginald's girlfriend, Stephanie Donnelly, also testified, stating she was unaware of either brother having a job, yet she observed them carrying large
amounts of money throughout December. She also confirmed that Reginald Bought brought several stolen items into her home which were later identified as belonging to victims. Having presented nearly a thousand pieces of evidence against the two brothers, the prosecution confidently rested their case in court no shity. This left the two defense teams facing what seemed like an impossible
challenge if they were to somehow win this case. Now, the only reason I kind of talked about some of the court proceedings already was just to show you some of the evidence that was against them. Right, So, before we dive too much more into the legal proceedings, I want to back up a little bit all these findings
that led the investigation to this point. It took the investigators a moment and they thought, you know what, what if we look into Reginald and Jonathan's background, see if we can understand why these two did such a horrific act. Both brothers were born in Dodge City, Kansas, already possessed with extensive criminal history by the time of this massacre, and folded. Their mother. Janice later painted a grim picture of their childhood, describing it as utterly quote lacking love or warmth.
That's their mom saying this, yes, okay.
Their home life was plagued by constant brutal arguments between their parents, with their father frequently physically abusing Janie. At one point, Janie herself snapped, beating their father with a baseball bat in front of their children.
Dang.
They had two sisters, A younger one tragically died from leukemia at just three years old. Oh my gosh, while another older sister later revealed that she had been sexually abused by their father. When their parents finally divorced, their father completely abandoned and disowned all of his children.
Okay, yeah, that does not sound great.
No, it's not the most functional of homes, that's for sure.
No.
According to their older sister, their mother's new boyfriend frequently abused both Reginald and Jonathan. Janice would later remarry, but her second husband proved just as violent as her first, even once holding a gun to her head and threatening to kill her. Reginald and Jonathan both often found themselves sent to stay at their maternal grandmother's house, but she
was similarly volatile, frequently yelling and screaming at them. Janis herself wasn't much better in how she treated her own children, often physically punishing them with electrical chords or other improvised weapons. This constant exposure to violence and trauma severely impacted both boys. In school, they consistently struggled academically and frequently got into violent altercations, forcing them to move to eight different schools by the time they reached the eighth grade. That's a
rate of one school a year. It was also suggested that Reginald, as the older brother, was somewhat protective of Jonathan, sometimes taking the blame for his younger brother's misdeeds to spare him any of the punishments. Psychologist Thomas Reid later detailed Reginald's early introduction to substance abuse. He was exposed to drugs and alcohol at the tender age of six, and was drinking heavy liquor by the time he was
eleven years old. Reginald ultimately dropped out of high school in ninth grade after attacking another student, narrowly avoiding yet another expulsion. Around the same time, Jonathan tragically attempted to take his own life by drinking anti freeze.
Okay, I mean, I'm just sitting back wide eyed here.
It's a lot to absorb, Yeah, especially for two kids who are so young.
Yeah, well, so he already had a drinking problem at eleven, basically, that is correct, Okay, yeah, yeah, that I mean. I hate hearing these stories because it kind of like tugs at your heart strings a bit. But then it also is just like no excuse for what they did. So it's a bit tough. You know.
It goes back to the saying two wrongs don't make it right. Just because you were wrong doesn't mean you can go and do wrong right. So I understand you are a victim at this point, but you go on to do bad things yourselves. That's you are victimizing others.
Well things really yeah.
Well I'm not saying specific things. I'm just using like general situations, right. Yeah, there's many cases that we cover where someone has a horrific upbringing and they go on to do horrific things or.
Just the same things or something.
Yeah, exactly, it doesn't justify you went through shitty shit. You're a victim, and I feel horrible for that sort of stuff, but it doesn't excuse your actions to carry on. Now, this whole backstory of the brothers gives us some perspective on what you may have occurred and impacted their life. But they went on to do some you know, other criminal things before this massacre occurred. And while the majority of those brothers' criminal records were sealed as part of
the trial. Some of Reginald's history is publicly accessible, and it reveals he served multiple prison stints from the age of eighteen onward, primarily for drug offenses and aggravated assault. In a chilling twist of fate, however, after being released from prison in March of two thousand, Reginald was arrested again in November for assault charges not only that, but also pro violations and drunk.
Driving and yeah, clearly should have been held then.
However, due to a critical paperwork error, he was inexplicably released in December of the year two thousand. This catastrophic oversight meant he was free to begin his horrific crime spree just days after being released, when he should have remained incarcerated.
Holy shit. Yeah, so this very I mean, maybe he would have done in a later date. I don't know, but this could have been prevented. Some of these things could have been prevented.
It was a literal whoopsie by the system.
Oh gosh, okay, yeah, it's not good. Holy shit, that's not good.
Now let's get into the trial.
You're just gonna drop that bomb and be like, okay, we're moving back here. Yeah, everyone just like pissed. I'm pissed, So what else do you want me to do?
That's the case.
I just don't understand that. I hope someone was held responsible for that, because you can't just have an oops with that kind of shit and then someone is just going and murdering people. It's just not okay.
I know it's not okay. Nicole's about to rage on me here, like I'm gonna get punched in the face of the thing.
Ever, you make it seem like I'm abusive and I'm not.
Yeah, she's not abusive, definitely not. But I feel the anger.
Well, yeah, I have some anger. Sorry, I'm processing this. You process this last week, Well.
Continue processing it. I'm going to talk about the trial, Okay, all right. So getting into the trial, Reginald and Jonathan Carr found themselves facing an overwhelming total of one hundred and thirteen criminal charges. This staggering list encompassed everything from capital murder to various forms of physical and sexual assault, also robbery, and even animal cruelty because remember in part one,
they did kill the dog, Nikki right the dog. Their case was assigned to Judge Paul Clark, with District Attorney Nola Fulston leading the prosecution alongside her deputy Kim Parker. Reginald's defense was handled by Jay Greywall, an experienced former public defender, and Val Wakel, while his younger brother, Jonathan's legal representation came from Mark Manna and Ron Evans. Now. Immediately, the defense teams attempted to have the trials for the
two brothers separated into two separate trials. Their reasoning straightforward. I guess you can call it that, since both legal teams planned to blame the other brother, their clients would effectively be fighting two opposing forces in the courtroom. However, Judge Clark quickly denied this request. He explained that the trial was projected to last two months and involved roughly seventy witnesses, making it far too expensive to conduct twice over.
Okay, good for them, good for him deciding that yeah.
He also noted it was standard practice for co defendants to be tried together.
Okay now.
The defense also pushed to have the trial moved out of Sedwick County. They presented a poll indicating that a significant seventy four percent of local residents already believed that the car brothers were guilty arguing that a fair trial in Wichita would be impossible. This motion was also rejected, with Judge Clark stating that no trial had been moved out of the county in forty years and he wasn't about to make an exception.
Wow, this guy means business, he does. I like it.
Jonathan's legal team even tried to have him declared unfit to stand trial, but Judge Clark ruled him competent after reviewing reports from two mental health experts, okay, shutting him down once more.
Done so, With the.
Trial date firmly set, both prosecution and defense meticulously questioned potential jurors. They systematically excluded individuals based on their views regarding the death penalty, anyone too familiar with the intricate details of the case, or those who even had a
vague connection with any of the victims right now. In the end, the jury was assembled, consisting of seven men and five women, two black individuals and ten white individuals, drawn from diverse backgrounds, ready to hear the horrific details of the witch to horror. Now, I know race doesn't mean anything, However, it actually was brought up in this situation. I'll cover it later on having a diverse jury was certainly important as to rule out print.
It is, m okay, so honestly that would be like, this would be a case that I'd want to be on the jury. Yeah, I mean it would be horrible.
I don't know if I could handle it.
It would be so horrible, but it would it would be kind of, I guess, like fascinating, you know.
Wow. Way, I've got the second sentence that I'm going to read. Here, we'll tell you exactly why I don't think i'd be able to be in on this jury. Okay, So the first sentence goes like this. When the trial finally commenced on October second, two thousand and two, nearly two years after the initial arrest, much of the witness testimonies proved profoundly disturbing. And here is why I don't know if I would ever be able to be on this jury. None of them were more harrowing than the
accounts given by Holly. In graphic, agonizing details, she recounted every assault, robbery, and murder, clearly identifying Reginald as the taller gunman responsible for much of the horror. I don't don't think I could sit there and listen to Hally describe what she went through out breaking the fuck down.
Well, yeah, because you are probably expected just to sit there and listen and not really show any emotion or like on your face, like you know, just kind of indifferent or whatever.
Yeah. I mean, obviously human people do cry, people do leave the courtroom at times, but they do need to like go through what was said. You need to read it, you need to hear it, you need to watch those sort of things. If you need to break, I mean, yeah, people break, they do that, but.
But I mean to Golly was the one that had to go through it, right, and she's so strong and being up there saying all of this to bring these guys to justice. Oh, I know what I mean. If she can do that, you can probably sit on the jury.
But even like secondhands, I know it would be it would be horrible. It would shatter me. Yeah, I mean, if like, if I was on the jury, I'd fucking do it.
But it would yeah, And honestly, yeah, that could actually affect your life too. I guess being on the jury, if you're going through having to listen to something just so horrible.
Right, I'm sure it does affect many of these people who are on traumphic cases in.
In a trauma way for sure.
Yeah. Now. Sedgwick County Corner Mary Dudley testified about the various wounds inflicted upon Holly's four friends. She explained that Heather and Aaron had been shot with a gun pressed directly against the back of their heads, while Brad and Jason were shot from slightly greater distances. Corner Dudley meticulously detailed other injuries on the victims as well, emphasizing evidence that showed Heather had been sexually assaulted and that all
three men had been beaten severely throughout the night. Jonathan's lawyer, Mark Mann, attempted to get her to concede that the shooting distances and lack of a pause in Holly's account implied a single person was responsible for the killings, thereby suggesting Reginald was the sole killer, but based purely on the forensic evidence, doctor Dudley couldn't confirm one way or
the other. Another witness, doctor Scott Porter, was called to explain the extent of Anne's injuries, particularly how one of the bullets had severed her spinal cord, leaving her partially paralyzed before she had passed away. During his testimony, he used a life sized anatomical model to visually demonstrate the
trajectory of the bullet that entered her body. To make his point clear to the jury, he inserted a metal rod into the model, following the path that the bullet would have taken from the entry wound through to the damage in her chest and spine. This vivid and physical representation of the internal damage, combined with the clinical details of her suffering, was so graphic and intense that one
of the jurors actually fainted in the courtroom. Oh seriously so going along, how it can be tough for jury members totally now. Andrew Shribber, the only other survivor besides Hawlly, delivered powerful testimony about his own kidnapping and robbery, as well, identifying Reginald as one of his two captors. However, like
other witnesses, he couldn't directly identify Jonathan. Under cross examination, Andrew admitted he had been unable to pick either one of the brothers out of a photo lineup shortly after their arrests. Beyond the gripping testimonies, hundreds of pieces of physical evidence were used to directly link the two brothers to the murders. As we discussed already, this included a wive ray of stolen belongings from the Birchwood Drive apartment. You know, TV clothing, credit cards found in both homes.
One of the most compelling the diamond engagement ring taking from the home. It was discovered in Jonathan's pocket. Right. The prosecution even located a stolen watch of Andrew at the home of one of the brothers. Forensic investigator Gary Miller testified about the shoe print and how it matched
Jonathan's shoe exactly. He also meticulously explained how the gun discovered me the highway could be directly tied to all three of these separate incidents, though he concluded the gun itself couldn't be linked directly to the car brothers because it was found in the field, not registered. It was only on their It wasn't on their persons, right, Okay, So it was only through witness accounts and circumstantial evidence that they could say this gun was theirs. Because we
have people like Holly saying that's the gun. We have people like Andrew saying that's the gun. We have people like the girlfriend saying that's the gun they made me clean, but there's no way of actually saying it is in fact belonging to them. Okay, so it is only technically circumstantial.
That is kind of tough.
Now. This list of things, of course, goes on much further. Having presented nearly a thousand piece of evidence pieces of evidence against the brothers, the prosecution rested its case, saying it was clear they did this. This left the two defense teams facing an almost insurmountable challenge. Let's put it that way. Jonathan's lawyer's primary piece of evidence was an Amtrak ticket dated for the day of the two murders. He claimed that Jonathan had intended to use it but
got lost leaving Wichita that night. Reginald's team wanted to introduce testimony that his brother had supposedly told him he'd been with a man who was quote tripping and shooting people, and that he'd moved stolen goods to Stephanie's apartment to assist his brother. However, this purported evidence was ruled inadmissible as hearsay and was quickly dismissed. In all honesty, I
don't even really understand it. Fully, it seems very weasley and like minimal and just trying to point blame and it doesn't fully make sense.
Their grasp and I feel.
Rasping, that's the best way to put it, because.
Yeah, they don't have a They don't have enough to defend these people really right now, So they're just making hit up.
Maybe they don't have enough, they don't have anything.
Basically, they're trying to do their job, but they can't.
Yeah. So now, bizarrely, they even replayed Holly's police interview for the jury. This is the defense. They're playing Holly's police interview for the jury. This, though, only serve to underscore the brutality that she had endured, causing some jurors, even Holly herself to leave the courtroom because they found it too distressing to watch. The defense had seemingly hoped that Holly's momentary vagueness in identifying Reginald in the video
footage would somehow aid their case. But that was just a complete.
Mistakes, no kidding.
Their idea is like, see she wasn't sure for a second there, That's basically what their idea was. But it was like, no, she's doubled for a second, cool.
That is, that's kind of dumb.
Yeah, as you said, grasping, yeah, yeah. Now, during their closing statements, both defense teams predictably shifted blame onto the other brother, each claiming their own client had done nothing to do with the horrific crimes, and Jonathan's team focused on the various identifications of Reginald, while Reginald's team highlighted Jonathan's DNA being strongly linked to the crimes. It was a back and forth he did it, he did it, not me, not me, I'm innocent, he's yeah.
He just really quick here, Like, are the brothers on board for this or is it just kind of their defense.
It's just the defense saying like, this is what we're going to do. It's the defense pointing back and forth. I mean, of course the brothers are being questioned. They're going with their defense. I mean they're trying to well, yeah, to not go to prison for life or potentially even face the death penalty, right, I.
Guess, But that just also seems kind of bad, you know that they're just like turning on each other, but they're kind of forced to in a way.
I guess definitely. Now it was on November fourth in the year two thousand and two, when the jury delivered its verdict after a long and emotional, a grueling trial, both Reginald and Jonathan Carr were found guilty on nearly all counts.
Can you not pause like that? In that tiny second, I was just like.
Oh boy, that's what I'm trying to build the tension I know, but yeah, it worked good. I'm glad it worked now. They were found guilty on nearly all counts, including the most serious capital murder charges. The only charges that didn't stick stick were related to Andrew Shibber's kidnapping and robbery. Jonathan was acquitted of these specific counts due to insufficient evidence directly linking him to that particular incident. As they heard the verdicts read aloud in that courtroom,
neither brother showed any emotion. Reginald was even shackled in the courtroom that day due to threats he made to deputies during the trial.
Oh what a winner.
While being led from the courtroom, reportedly stared intently at the victims' families while Jonathan proposed, what what really, that's freaking arrogant. He just stared down victims' families.
Ew that is actually really beyond disrespectful definitely.
And Jonathan reportedly avoided eye contact. So you have one staring him down, one just avoiding eye contact at all.
Okay now.
The very next morning, the jury faced the somber task of deciding the brothers fate their sentence life in prison or death by execution. During the sentence hearing, various witnesses and experts presented statements to help guide the jury and their difficult decision. Several psychologists testified about the profound damage of their childhoods filled with violence and abuse, and how it had infected their lives and afflicted their growing up
and who they became. Forensic psychologist Mark Cunningham, for example, claimed their upbringing left both Jonathan and Reginald emotionally detached and lacking empathy, making them capable of such brutal acts. Yet under cross examination by the prosecution, Cunningham stated that the brothers quote unquestionably understood the difference between right and wrong,
but simply just didn't care. Another expert even presented evidence suggesting both brothers had sustained brain damage in their temporal lobes. This type of injury has been linked in other cases to lack of impulse control and morality, though its precise role in this particular case remains unclear. While the two defense teams pleaded with the jury to give their clients
life sentences, Prosecutor Fulston argued passionately against mercy. She urged them quote not to show the brothers mercy simply because they had troubled upbringings, asserting you know there was no excuse basically for their actions. They deserve the death sentence. Emotional testimonies also came from those personally connected to the brothers. Reginald's ex wife, who he had kids with, spoke at
the hearing. One even read out a heartbreaking letter from his seven year old son expressing his love and begging his father to come home. An ex coworker of Jonathan's also testified, recalling that he had always been kind, polite, and generous when she worked with him. But the most impactful statement came from the survivors. Both Andrew and Hawlly delivered powerful victim impact statements to the jury. Hally's words
were particularly poignant. Quote, every day there is a memory or a scar that reminds me of that night I wake up in sweats from my nightmares. I pace at night because of the noises that I think are people breaking into my house. And every morning I carefully blow dry my hair to c up that spot that can no longer grow hair. She went on to describe her daily fears of being assaulted again, adding quote, the sentence imposed on them will be a much kinder sentence than
they imposed on me, my friends and family. After several hours of deliberation, the jury returned with its recommendation for Reginald and Jonathan sentence. Both should receive the death sentence for their crimes. Oh okay, did you not like that? Pause?
I gave it a little extra I kind of thought that was the way it was going to go. But I just have to say when I was like saying, how I would want to be, you know, a juror on this, on something like this, having to decide that like to have them live or not. Yeah, that is pretty tough.
Hey, yeah, that's in your hands.
Yeah, I mean they did the crimes, so but I feel like, yeah, having to make that decision would be would affect you?
Yeah?
Would yeah?
Now, before they were formally sentenced to this, Judge Clark offered the defendants a chance to make a statement. Oh, both declined, Uh, I would never wanting someone else.
Well though I was going to call them something, but I just held it back.
All right, Well, moving on. Judge Clark then officially sentenced them both to death. Once again, neither brother displayed any reaction or emotion. In addition to the death penalty, the brothers received life sentences for the murder of Anne Wallenta with no possibility of parole, plus roughly additional forty years each for their other convictions. Outside the courtroom, victims, family members, friends, they all embraced each other, along with the prosecutors and
crime scene investigators. While the families chose not to comment publicly. Prosecutor Kim Parker, visibly emotional at the time as she hugged Holly, simply stated, quote, justice has been served and it is long awaited for the families, the victims, and the two survivors. The profound ordeal of the Wichita horror was far from over even after the verdict and sentencing was done see In Kansas, a death sentence automatically initiates
an appeal process no which can stretch out over many years. Notably, since the state had reinstated the death penalty. In nineteen ninety four, every single death sentence handed down had been overturned by Kansas's highest court, and no execution had actually been carried out since nineteen sixty five. This precedent hinted at a very long, challenging legal battle ahead of the
car brothers case, adding more layers of complexity. In December of two thirds thou and four, the Kansas Supreme Court made a significant move, ruling to overturn the state's death penalty law entirely. However, the Kansas Attorney General quickly appealed this decision to the U. S Supreme Court, which subsequently stepped in and upheld the constitutionality of the death penalty
within the state. Then, in twenty fourteen, the Kansas Supreme Court once again intervened, overturning Reginald and Jonathan's death sentences. Their reasoning this time was that the brother's Eighth Amendment rights, which protect against cruel and unusual punishment, had been violated when the original trial judge refused to grant them separate
sentencing hearings. The court believed that each brother deserved individual hearings, considering the possibility that one might warrant more leniency than the other based on the difference of evidence and level of culpability.
This is annoying me, this part. It should well, I really liked that one judge. She was just like nobs. Yeah, and because that's exactly what those people deserved. Nobs like they didn't deserve these chances or whatever, is what I mean. The judge was right.
I agree, But unfortunately there's more to the legal system than just one presiding judge. And so now we're having to deal with that in the subsequent following years.
And he was trying to save some money too, you know, taxpayer money.
Yeah. Now, in another turn, the US Supreme Court stepped in once again in two thousand and six, reversing that decision of you know, saying that they didn't have the right trial and that you know, overturning their sentencing. This time, they asserted that they did not violate the brothers' rights, thereby reinstating their death sentences. Commenting on this convoluted legal back and forth, prosecutor Nola Falston stated, quote, no one is entitled to a perfect trial, only a fair one.
But this came close to being a perfect trial in terms of legal issues and being resolved and how we went by trying went about trying this case. End quote hashtag Mike drop. No one is entitled to a perfect trial, only a fair one, but this came close to being a perfect trial. Holy shit.
Yeah, like the amount of back and forth right now that's happening. Like they don't deserve this. They got their trial. They freaking you know, were sentenced to this done.
Like, move on, I agree. Now. While on death row at the Eldorado Correctional Facility, both brothers secured new legal teams. They attempted to leverage this history of legal chaos to be granted new resentencing hearings. Both new defense teams heavily criticized their original trial lawyers, deeming them inadequate. They also tried to claim that the jury, which was predominantly white, had been racially biased against them, which is why I said earlier it was important that it was you know,
mixed and everything like that. Yes, So, their legal representatives even brought attention to an investigation into various police officers at the witch Taught Police Department, an inquiry that revealed several officers, including one who had worked on the car case, had been disciplined for exchanging racists, sexists, and homophobic texts and images. This was presumably an attempt to imply that the police had racially targeted the two brothers from the onset.
Despite all these legal maneuvers and external controversies, the brothers themselves continued their pattern of shifting blame on to one another. Jonathan's legal team tried to claim that Reginald had sexually abused him and wielded significant power over him, forcing him to comply with his commands. Meanwhile, Reginald's team once again tried to argue that almost all of the forensic evidence
more strongly implicated Jonathan and not him. Ultimately, their request for resentencing, for whatever their reason they had, they were denied good. With their death sentences having been deemed constitutional by the Kansas Supreme Court and reaffirmed by the US Supreme Court, Reginald and Jonathan Carr remain on death row, awaiting execution to this very day.
They'll probably stay like that forever or some time or probably yeah. But I mean, for some reason, I just had this flash of you, like telling me they were out or something, and I would I would like burn this tiny home down, I would just be so angry.
No, I honestly, that was that was hard for me to get through too. Like the reading of that, I hate that section. You might have even been able to hear it in my voice. I was just wanting to plow through that, get through that, because I hate the fact that they were able to fight the system, able to get these old turns and all this sort of oh waste that much people time, taxpayers, having victims, you know,
resurgence of these memories and stuff. Whether they went in court or not, I don't know, but even still having this come up again is fuck. It pisses me off.
Yeah, it's ridiculous, I mean, and it happens often.
It really does, way too often.
It's quite frustrating.
Yeah. Yeah, Now beyond the criminal proceedings, because fuck that, let's move on. The victims' families also pursued another form of justice. The victims' families, okay, they filed a wrongful death lawsuit against the state, arguing negligence stemmed from the critical paperwork and the mistake that led Reginald's reliefs from prison just days before the massacre when he should have remained incarcerated.
Okay, well, I mean fair enough.
In two thousand and four, the judge hearing the case agreed that the state's actions had indeed failed the victims, and the jury subsequently awarded the families approximately half a million dollars each. It was a small but significant measure of accountability for the devastating bureaucratic error.
Okay, I mean, yeah, like it's nice to get that money and stuff, but yes, it's a probably not even really about the money, and I don't like because that is nothing compared to them having their loved one around.
Right, So don't get me wrong. Half million dollars in your pocket, that's great, but that's a token for losing a loved one.
Yeah, I feel like it's more just about the principle too, right, Yeah.
One hundred percent, trying to ensure that due diligence is done moving forward and then it's not going to happen.
To someone else totally.
Now, even after many years of the unspeakable events of the Witchta Horror, the dark shadows of that week they do still linger, yet equally present in this remarkable resilience of those it's those people who survived. Now, Detective Rick Craig who was among the first officers to arrive at the snowy field the four victims were murdered. He later shared with a reporter that he has remained close friends
with Holly ever since the incident. Aw and in a truly extraordinary turn of events, Holly herself eventually found love and were married. The only other survivor of the Craig Brothers crime spree, Andrew Schribber, seriously that baseball player who had been abducted and robbed.
Holy shit, I wasn't expecting that.
Yeah, they got together and they've got married.
Okay, that's like kind of nice. Actually yay.
So with each other they forged new life and ultimately moved away from Wichita. According to Detective Craig, he occasionally visits them with his family, though they mutually avoid discussing the traumatic events of that massacre.
Huh.
To honor the other victims and ensure their memories endure, several scholarships were established. One, for example, was created at Saint Thomas Aquinas Catholic School, where Heather Mueller had been a Cherist teacher. Another was founded at Wichita State Unions in memory of Anne Malinta, who had worked there. As a dedicated librarian and was a talented cellist as well, known for introducting young African American students into classical music.
To this day, the Witch toa Horror stands as one of the most brutal and shocking true crime cases in Kansas history. It's left an undeniable mark on the city, simultaneously igniting a deep fear and inspiring and outpouring of compassion as well. And that is the story of the Witch to Horror.
H Oh boy. Yeah, that one is just brutal, is it ever? There is so much just to kind of like reflect on, I guess, yeah. But the fact that those two fell in love when they kind of had not similar experiences, but like they both have a lot of traumatic events that happened to them, and they can kind of lean on each other. And you know, I was going to say they didn't experience it together, but you know, similarities, right.
So they're both victims of the same monster, the same monster. Yeah. I mean, of course we're not comparing what they went through any anything, but when they have those incidents of fearing those monsters, they can be there for each.
Other, Yeah, and really kind of know what it feels like a little bit. Yeah, right, so that's I don't know, that's like incredible. I don't know. I wasn't expecting that at all. So huh.
Yeah, I don't really know what to say after this one. I got nothing. This case fucking pissed me off. I swore a lot in this one. Sorry for that, but it did.
Yeah. I tried to hold my tongue because sometimes people are like, you guys swear too much. But it's like, holy shit, what are you supposed to say?
Sometimes I mean it, it's how we get out of motion.
Sometimes too, we have people are doing the most horrendous things to each other and you're just supposed to be like, okay, well.
I mean sometimes you do say darn or I say ding dang. Sometimes sometimes we try and tone it down a bit, but sometimes we can't. Sometimes we got to let it out.
Yeah, sometimes you just do. It does help, Actually it does. Maybe that's my new wine drinking. I just say the effort.
You just just a screaming in the bathroom into a pillow or something.
Oh boy, Okay, Well in that, no, I guess let's try to get some sleep.
Yeah, let's go to bed. Well, thank you, for being here, Thank you for sticking around for part two. Hopefully enjoyed the story. Nichole is actually going to be going on a bit of a trip here, so we're going to pre record an episode or two. So if it comes to us pre recording the Tuesday episode, we shout out, patrons, don't worry, it's just a pre recorded will shout you out on the next actual live one when Nicole is
actually back in town. Up on that. If Tuesday rolls around, you're like, I didn't get called out, it's because it's pre recorded. Nicole's on vacation, not actually vacation, she's just working in another city. But I digress.
Well, and there could be a slight delay on that Tuesday, but we'll keep you posted on that for Yeah.
So yeah, Tuesday, it should be there. Tuesday. It might be different Tuesday, it might actually commote Wednesday. It might be pre recorded, it might not. It'll happen somehow, some way.
It'll be there, and we'll keep you posted on social We will.
We will, don't you worry. So yeah, until next
Time, stay wicked