The Russian Doll Man - Anatoly Moskvin

We all find comfort in different things. It may be simple you enjoy listening to music, reading a book, or doing a crossword puzzle. But some people find comfort in things far more sinister. In the story of Anatole moskn he found comfort in the deceased, and for nine years he would go about saving the abandon at least that's what he convinced himself he was doing.

I'm Nicole, I'm Ben and this is Wicked and Grim, a true crime podcast.

Good morning following podcasteien listener dis question is that, Okay, let's play a game.

I open a can. You open a can, and we'll see if people can tell who opened the can.

I was like just about to open it to your good timing.

Okay, okay, so let's just pause, Okay, Reset, Reset.

One of us has put a.

Man down, is going to go first?

Okay. So that's option A, and this is option B. Which one was? Which? Can you guess?

I was trying so hard. I didn't set myself.

You did, you could have done great or.

You have done no way that anyone did not give Yeah, but don't give it away, just in case, give it away.

Give it away, Give it away, now, give it away. Give it away, Give it away. Now, what's up. How's it going?

Oh, anyway, I'm going to work on that. It's hard, okay, I find it hard to do with the microphone in the way.

Yeah, it's totally the microphone one percent.

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I think, So what do you got for us today?

Okay, so today we're talking about anatotlely moskmin Sweet. Do you know who this is?

I they do only because of you telling me slight little things about him. If it wasn't for you saying anything, I would have had no clue.

I've actually had this case on my list for quite a while. I'd probably say, like a good year for some reason, I haven't done it. I don't know.

Wow. Well, I mean we do have a lot of cases like that that are just sitting on our list, waiting for one day, the right day.

Well, yeah, and I write shit down in books and then I forget about the book, and then I'm like, oh, yeah, yeah, okay. So Anatolely was born in Russia in nineteen sixty six. He had a love for learning that started at a very young age. And to give you an idea just how smart he was. By the time he graduated from Moscow State University, Anatoly was fluent in thirteen languages. Holy shit, that is beyond that. How was my mind old? Once he had graduated from university.

Wow, so he's probably like maybe twenty twenty two, twenty five tops something like that. Yeah, because is that that not that you can't be older to graduate university. Don't get me wrong, it's just that era. Usually they're quite young to graduate.

Well. Yeah, and I believe that he kind of went after high school, went to university kind of thing. There wasn't any breaks or anything. But yeah, that is mind blowing to me.

That is wild. I barely speak English and flagelence.

I know I am going to add a second language one day, but I cannot even imagine thirteen. There's just no way. There's no way.

That's wild.

He is using his full brain.

I think we had this conversation before. What would your second language be that you want to learn?

I think I've talked about Spanish before. I don't know. It would be somewhere that I'd really want to go visit, I think, and then learn that language that when I go there. I mean, gosh, you would go there and you'd still fuck up, you'd still look like you didn't fit in.

But oh, yeah, for sure, one hundred percent, one hundred percentred. I'm going to be really conscious of that now because everyone talked about it.

Yeah. And what's the other thing? You always say, to be fair, to be fair? So bends one percent to be fair to be fair. Okay, So he would be described as someone incredibly intelligent, basically a genius, but a bit odd and eccentric to say the least, which would not be the first time a highly intelligent person would be described that way. Not all, but very often intelligent people struggle with social skills For a number of reasons.

Yeah, it's it's pretty normal for them to be abnormal.

Yeah, that's yeah. I've met a few people like that and stuff, and it's it's fair. I mean, like, gosh, speaking thirteen languages, would you have time to do anything else? They probably don't even have time to be social, you know.

Yeah.

So, so Anatolely would become an expert in Celtic history and folklore, with some people believing that he had this interest in folklore if I could speak, it was only a byproduct of his main interest of the occult.

Oh, he's got some interesting interests he does, actually, Yeah, the occult interests folks, Like, there's some wild stories within all of those.

Yeah, and we're really just getting started. He's he is kind of interesting. I'll give him that. I'll give him that.

Ka.

Well, I mean we're talking about him in a podcast, So.

There is some interests within his story everything there.

So he was a collector with over sixty thousand books and documents in just his own personal library.

Holy shit, that's a library and a half.

Yeah. I feel like I maybe have like ten books. Wow, maybe that's why I can't speak thirteen language.

Well, we do live in a tiny home.

Though, douche, I actually had got rid of a lot of books.

I don't even know if we could fit sixty thousand books in our tiny No.

Well, I mean some of them I said were documents, right, oh, Toche, So it could have just been papers or whatever. He wrote several books on the many languages he spoke, and he helped translate an incredible amount of work for his fellow academics working in the field of linguistics. Perhaps more importantly, anatotally wasn't afraid to get his hands dirty.

Okay.

In two thousand and five, he was commissioned to write a summary and a complete list of the dead in over seventy or seven hundred cemeteries. Holy Shitni Nosgors and anatotally jumped at the opportunity.

Okay, if I may ask, what's Noa?

So that's a city in Russia? Okay, Sorry if if I butchered that pronunciation to anyone listening from.

Russia, another language is what you're trying to speak, I think it's going to be an issue.

It would be like you all trying to pronounce Coquitlam. Yeah, or I was gonna see Nanaimo. Some people have trouble with Nanaimo, but Coquitlam for sure.

Yeah.

So maybe not everyone's cup of tea, but it was necessary work that he needed to do or that they wanted him to do. I've heard of many people finding peace and graveyards, and I don't necessarily think that's an abnormal thing. But he liked his time in the graveyards.

Graveyards are honestly a very peaceful place.

They are.

I mean, I'm not going to argue anyone who says they're creepy, they're weird. Sure, I'm not gonna argue that. Very true. They very much so can but.

More so at night. I feel like we used to live by one kind of when we live by Costco, and I used to kind of do a bit of running at that time, and I would love to run through the graveyard. And I know a lot of people thought that was so weird, but I was like, I actually run amazing in there.

Yeah, it's it's very very peaceful.

Yeah, it's so peaceful. A lot of people find peace in there.

Well, I mean theoretically most people will eventually find peace in one. Yes, I'm not.

Even gonna let's just move on, you know what. I mean, so okay, so anatotally got to work doing a job that most people would have turned down. He had a work on foot, walking about thirty kilometers a day and make detailed reports of the grapes he visited, often sleeping on site exposed to the elements, or if lucky, getting a hay bill to sleep on. And when he ran out of drinking water, he'd drink rain water from puddles, from puddles, which I actually just hate because it's amazing

That rainwater is one thing, but yeah, from the puddle from puddle. No.

He also said he spent one night sleeping in a coffin. He obviously took his work very seriously. Wow, some of the shit in this case. So I'm like, is this guy just making this up? Because that just seems weird because I think one article I read so the coffin was just there waiting to be filled the next day. But that's not how it works, I don't think. Because they don't bring the body to the cemetery. They bring the body in the coffin to the cemetery. As far as I know.

You're looking at a different country.

That's true. Maybe I should have googled that that is true. But yeah, as far as I know, the body always came in the coffin.

But who knows as far as Hollywood has taught us. I mean, I've never really had a dealing with how to put a body in a box and bury it.

See, I've gone to a few like funerals where it's open casket. Yes, and I'm assuming that the body stays in there. But yeah, I don't know.

Well, I mean, procedures nowadays are a lot different. This is nineteen sixties.

Well this wouldn't This would have been in the two thousands at this time.

Oh really yeah, Oh and I could imagine that. Yeah, maybe not so much.

But like you said, it is overseas and lots of countries in different areas of the world do things far differently, which is fine.

Yep.

So when he was done this massive undertaking, Ana totally found work as a freelance journalist when he often and he where he often wrote stories about his experiencing is roughing it in the cemeteries that he did study. That was until November twenty eleven, when Anatole's name was in the paper for a totally different reason, okay, and.

I'm assuming this is going to be where he's uh compiling some bodies.

Well, you shall see, you see. Starting back in about two thousand nine, reports of vandalized or reports of vandal vandalism, vandalism, vandalism and sometimes even graves that had been completely emptied started coming into police So people were being notified of this.

Okay, I know where this is going.

Anatotally was questioned, especially especially given his well known work in around the local cemeteries. But he had a good reason to be there, and no one expected an academic like he was to be desecrating graves. That was until twenty eleven, when he was literally caught doing so. By then, more reports were coming in, this time about Muslim graves being vandalized, and this time it carred a heavier implication.

So when you say defacing a grave, what exactly was he doing to sit grave well, I think or any of the graves when he was defacing them, because.

We're going to get into more detail about what he was doing. But in defacing sometimes he would just take pieces of the grave, like I mean, I you know how sometimes like graves have like a picture. Yeah, he might like black or something that.

Off huh interesting.

As like a keepsake. I guess you could say, yeah, that is actually brutal people who go and vandalize or do anything and cemeteries are terrible.

Yeah that that's like one of the fucking lowest things you can do.

Yeah, I really agree, not.

One of the most horrific, don't get me wrong. There there's a big difference, but one of the lowest.

Yeah, unnecessary, completely unnecessary. So still thinking that this was part of a hate crime, the police then went to his home, where they uncovered more than they ever bargained for. Anatoly forty five at the time, had never moved out of his family home. He very well lived alone, though with his parents in a different country for a lot of the year, which left him to his own devices, and he managed to keep himself very busy despite never being in a relationship that we know of.

I have a feeling that keep very busy. Is is an interesting very busy, isn't it?

Yeah? Because I mean like, if you're in a relationship, that shit takes time.

But I'm not gonna lie. You take a lot of effort.

Yeah, they take a lot of time, like a lot of time.

No, you specifically take of course.

Of course, try living with.

You, dude, I trust me, I do. It's I'm not easy, I know.

Okay. So the house was jam packed. As I mentioned, Anatoly was a collector with possibly a hoarding disorder disorder as well, and that is my personal diagnosis because I saw some footage of the police like walking through his home and there's a lot of shit in that house.

For a moment there, I thought you said that your personal diagnosis of yourself was that you're not anymore.

I feel like I used to be a order.

You were a hoarder. You were just a eccentric collector of things, of things, saying stuff and things.

Yes, so it was impossible to see the floor in places, So that that to me, you know, you know, there's a lot of stuff in there.

Well, technically it's impossible to see a floor with a rug on.

It, I guess, but there was it was like clutter, an accumulation from clutter in each room. But what God investigators was actually the smell.

Well, here we go. I do know that a lot of places with like those extreme hoarding situations there does tend to be a smell. But I have a feeling you're going on a different route.

Yeah.

I think a lot of times the smell is from food too, because I think sometimes they even have troubles throwing up food or like packaging that food was in.

Yeah, and it becomes filth. Well, you can't clean with that much stuff everywhere too, right, Yeah, and then there's a whole I've seen some with bathroom problems too, so.

Oh yeah, okay, oh with animals and stuff.

Well, animals and actual individuals.

Okay.

I think there was one that I saw where the actual individual kept there really sperments that was one of their hoarding things.

Oh my goodness, I've never heard of that.

Actually, Yeah, that's that's hum that's something so.

The host ink okay, almost like something was rotting inside and the police wanted to figure out what that smell could be or where what it was coming from, right.

Oh, and I just thought of another reason that a house could Sorry I digress, but because it could very well be moisture build up under a lot of these things, right, Mold issues that sort of thing very much, so it could beating factor.

Oh I'm just like breathing in that mold. That's so bad for you. Hey, yes, okay, wow, wow, so wall search.

No one's eating right now?

I know I can't. I actually, when I was researching this case, couldn't really eat. Lots of times I do like eat while I'm researching or watching true crime shit, and this one just I couldn't for some reason. But it could have just been the day. It is gross too. Okay, where were we? I'm just like all over the place. So while searching, they found documents and books on doll making and mummification. Yeah, and they also found okay, twenty

Hold on twenty six.

Yeah, twenty six of.

Them life size dolls. How many were human?

It didn't take long to put two and two together, and the realization was horrifying. The dolls they weren't actually dolls. They were the mummified remains of girls previously deceased who had already been laid to rest and then dug up.

Fuck all twenty six of them.

All twenty six.

Oh my god, that is a lot of mummified humans.

Yeah, Like, I couldn't even imagine going into that room and discovering that, because dolls alone are creepy. Oh yeah, right, and these were kind of how would you describe them vintage? I don't know, they looked I don't even know where I'm going.

Well, it was that gesture.

I don't know.

I'm like, they looked kind of olden days ish, right, And so that would be creepy enough. And then when you find out that they're literally like they were people, Oh my godness. So the girls were women ranged in age from three to two twenty five years old, and so a lot of reports do say, I think it was three to twelve or three to thirteen years old, but then a lot of them say most the majority of them say they ranged from twenty five, which I find harder to believe. You think that they would be

Wow, oh oh, okay, so children.

Yes, girls, young young girls.

Children, some of these are children.

Yeah, infants even I think a three year old would probably consider toddler. Yeah, toddler and infants probably like zero to one.

Yeah.

So remember when I mentioned back in about two thousand and nine reports of vandalized and sometimes even graves that have been completely emptied. Well, that was anttally surprise. Yeah, anatotally sorry.

Yeah, didn't see that. Coming back at.

The police station, the investigators were left asking one simple question, a question that usually gets asked. Why.

Yeah.

Of course they wanted to know why anatole had done this, and he had some surprising answers for them.

Okay, what did you have to say?

When Anatolely was only a boy, he'd spent his time after school wandering the local cemeteries, examining graves, and becoming more and more interested in the dead. According to himself and even an article he wrote on one of those trips Anatolely had taken as a boy through the local cemetery, he actually interrupted a funeral. The funeral had been for an eleven year old girl, and in their grief, her

That sounds like someone's dream they had. That's what it sounds like to me.

Yeah, and sometimes I've actually had this happen to me before, where I forget, oh shit, actually I dreamed that.

Yeah, And I mean like to be fit, to be fair, people are fucked up not saying that this couldn't happen.

But it doesn't make any sense though.

It's fucked up, like you would be grieving.

Why would you want this random child just kissing your deceased kid like that. It just doesn't make anything.

It doesn't make any sense. No, But like I said, it could have happened. It could happen.

It totally could happen.

Do I think it happened. I'm I mean, maybe there's more to this story. I don't know, but I'm leaning towards the fiction side of things.

Yes, I mean, really, I feel like he's the only one that knows.

I'm I'm thinking, so if this happened.

With a kid, yeah, So he went on to explain in his article My Strange Marriage, the little girl's name was Natasha, So my strange marriage.

How did he know her name?

I don't know. I bet you anything that he would have later gone back and visited that grave, Oh, cursuer, so I could see him knowing the name. So he said, My strange marriage with Natasha was useful. It as the reason behind his belief in magic and his fascination with the dead, which were two of the reasons behind him going on to study Celtic history in folklore and the

Oh okay, I just I had a joke. I can't remember where I heard it before it and I was going to make it. But as soon as you said young children, I'm like, no, I'm not going to make that joke. It changes it. It changes it, It changes the joke.

Everyone's gonna want to know what the joke.

Now the joke is. I can't remember where I heard it from. I think it might have been explos them, you know those those web comics that are really like, yeah, adult oriented. Yeah, the joke was not abituary. You mean hotbituary that was That was the joke. But as soon as you mentioned children, that through that.

Yeah, yeah, you shouldn't have said anything, I know. Okay, So once the funeral was over and the girls were buried and it totally would spend the nights sleeping on top of their graves and waiting for them to speak to him. According to him, he would ask them if they wanted a second chance to live, and if they did, he would dig them up and take them home.

See, I have a problem with this.

Outside I saw right away, you're just like moving your mic. You're like, no, I got this isn't right.

Outside of the obvious of digging someone up and taking them home. Outside of that, why the fuck is he just going to the obituaries and sleeping on top of the grave to try and communicate with the dead, to find a spouse.

Not a spouse, babe, a child.

Or a child.

Oh, so the adoption agencies did not let him adopt a kid, rightfully, so and so this is his way of getting a child.

Okay, see I was thinking, we are going the necrophilia route.

Oh no, oh, we're gonna make you disbelief. This doesn't have that.

You and your necrophilia.

It doesn't have it in there.

Okay, you and your necroman See how's.

That it doesn't have this?

This is child necromancy.

Oh gosh, whatever. I know after after I picked this case, I didn't even realize you were like, really, yeah.

More dead dead people being dug up?

Way to go?

I just there are a billion and one ways. I mean, it makes more sense. Not that I'm advocating this, It makes more sense to go and steal a child than digging up a deceased one.

Yes, I feel like stealing a child and I don't know, they're both terrible, but like, I mean the other one is alive still right, and like.

Yeah, but then he has a live child than.

H dead one. No one would want him to have a live child.

The only thing I can see on why he would go this route, which it is a plausible explanation, but it's a stretch in my opinion, is him seeing himself as so much of an outsider that he's finding someone else who is just as desperate as him, akaone who is deceased, who wants a second chance at life. They just want a family again, They want to be alive. They don't want to be in the ground. So a desperate person looking for a desperate person. Yeah, that's the only thing I can see.

I also just need to know would you rather do a case about a spouse killing their spouse?

Honestly, at this point, kind of you do you really do?

Okay, where are we here? So anatotally didn't know. Okay, I see where the fuck we are? So I'm just like, where are we?

So?

Anatolely didn't know how to bring them back to life, and he knew that he'd have to wait a while for science to find a way to do it for him. So he feels like he's listening to these girls. They want to come back to life. He wants to bring them back to life, but he feels like, I guess science needs to catch up. So he's taking them home with him, right, and then he realizes that he needs to preserve the girl's bodies. Intel science is at that point,

Theory is there, but practicality it makes no fucking sense because just because you have the body, the skin, the bones, that doesn't mean you have the person. I know, you're not preserving their brain, you're not preserving their heartserving their consciousness.

Or they're really not being preserved at all.

It's on the most super superficial level that he is capturing who they are.

Yeah, So he settled on the solution of salt and baking soda, covering their hands, feet, and sometimes their face with cloths to cover their decomposition when it didn't always work, and then he began looking after them. He made them eyes so that they could watch cartoons with him. He painted the masks or the masks over their face with nail polish. He stuffed musical boxes and mementos from the graves inside them so they made noises when he would go to play with them.

Jesus, what do he fucking stuff in their eye sockets? See him? Eyes?

Buttons?

Holy shit?

Sometimes buttons? Was buttons?

Fucking buttons? Anyone else out there thinking of Coraline, the other mother right.

Now, also buttons or I think sometimes he did put doll eyes in there too.

Holy shit. Okay, okay, I can go on a whole other tangent here with this, but I'm not. I'm not.

I wonder if anyone's going to comment how we say buttons button. I feel like people it's actually me have said that. I say button really like cutely or weirdly button, button, a little button. So they celebrated the holidays and even the girl's birthdays together, but it wasn't all happy family. Some of the girls turned on him and anatotally didn't like that. Then your face there, stop with the facial

Look at you because I can't even fucking believe this, dude, Like, it's the most absurd thing I've ever heard.

It's very absurd.

Like you said, police wanted to know why, and this is his why? Like what, Yeah, the I don't know how to put it in words, the disorders or condition that this individual has to do this sort of thing and think this way. Wow, all right, it's baffling to me to say, it's.

Very baffling too. So Anatole was charged with the desecration of graves and dead bodies, which would have landed him apparently a maximum sense of five years if he was found guilty, which does not seem like enough. But it was pretty clear that he was guilty, and something else was pretty clear too. Anatotally was sent for a psychiatric evaluation. Rightfully, so, his parents claimed that he was fine. His parents actually like I don't know if I've put this in here,

Okay, they didn't realize they were human.

They just thought that he kind of his hobby. Was Like, I don't know if they thought he made them or what.

WI dolls, Go for it. They're not dolls, mom, figures.

Okay, I don't know if you know this about me, but do you know those like porcelain dolls? Yeah, I used to collect some of those.

Yeah, I know you had some.

Oh shit, that's so embarrassing and you still married me.

Hey yeah, yeah, you also collected beanie babies and personals babies.

Makes sense because that was gonna be my life savings.

Yeah, that does not make sense.

Okay, so his call. His colleagues at the newspaper said he was eccentric and a bit quirky, but he wasn't capable of doing something like this, So, like people close to him, this was shocking. But the evaluation came back with very different results and it totally was diagnosed as having paranoid schizophrenia, and his doctor said that he was unfit to stand trial.

That makes total sense. It does because he's literally putting voices, personalities, and everything to these remains of the individuals.

Yeah. So he was therefore also determined to not be criminal liable for his crimes, even though in his interview with the police he admitted that he'd known and understood that what he was doing was illegal. But he'd done it anyway. He explained that the girls had been calling to him from beyond the grave, and he thought that it was more important to help them than it was to follow the law.

I believe that.

Yeah, I believe that, Like you almost you almost feel a little bit bad for him.

I do. I wholeheartedly feel bad for him. Yeah, for sure, because I believe that he has this paranoid schizophrenia. I've talked to individuals before who have schizophrenia, and it's very real situation. There's one individual who had talked to before. He literally saw people, like a fucking person there in his room, oh wow, talking to him, and he would have.

To like that wasn't there.

Yeah, he'd have to throw an object at them to see if he hit them, to see if they were real.

Oh my goodness. See that's scary.

That it is. And so someone who's dealing with this sort of thing, Yeah, they would definitely say, Okay, these people are really talking to me. It's a real situation.

He legitimately believed that he was helping them, yeah, and eye his head right.

So I feel bad for him because of that. Yeah, it's fucking weird. Yeah, but I I do.

Feel for him, So he said, Okay, where was I.

Not that he's the weird one. The situation is weird. Having to deal with that, thinking of talking to a dead person.

Is oh yeah, no, I mean.

Yeah, I'm not saying he's weird.

Any One that kind of doesn't have this mental illness that's terrifying, right, So so he said this right before he told the police that he'd started bringing the girls home before speaking with them because he was getting old and was getting harder for him to sleep on top of the graves. He said he'd started sleeping next to them at home and hope that being inside would actually help them feel more comfortable communicating with him, but who knows if it actually did. He also rounded up the

That is.

So back to his evaluation, anatotally suffered from a form of pard schizophrenia and was unfit to stand trial, but he was also unfit to be released back to the public. He was sentenced to a psychiatric hospital to receive treatment until he was either well enough to go to court or be released. In twenty thirteen, his stay was extended. It continued to be extended until twenty eighteen. This was when his doctors claimed that Anatole was no longer a

I do have comments that I'm just waiting for you.

I mean, we have covered cases where this sort of thing happens. It seems like people sometimes almost get an obsession with some criminal when they go to jail and stuff. Right.

Yeah, Well, and actually, I don't know if you realized how much this has been paralleling the greyhound bus murder, the beheading. I can't remember the individual, but he was schizophrenic, did not take his medication, had the incident on the bus, was hearing voices and all the shit. Yeah, went to court, was not criminally negligent, went to psychiatric care and was

But still he harmed the loved ones, Yes.

Very much.

So.

He desecrated graves. Yeah, and it was emotional damage to loved ones. That's not a crime. However, physically everyone can still walk and talk and go about with their day, you know what I'm saying. So I believe this is a classic case where someone can be rehabilitated and be reintroduced into society wholeheartedly. I do. I believe he should be released on certain conditions. Medication, care checkups. Definitely. You're fucking not allowed to go to.

Graveyards heck no, yeah, or really be around like children, probably, I agree.

Yeah, And if anything of those is breached, then he's going back into care. That is my thoughts. I don't think that anyone is undeserving of love, whether you commit a horrific crime or not. I really don't, because that could bring you out of whatever dark place you were in.

M hm.

So these two finding each other, Hey, good for them.

I mean there was quite an age difference between them.

Yeah, if we if fucking Charles Manson found his bride, his his fucking his one. Hey, good for Charles Charles Manson. I'm glad he has someone. He's still a fucking piece of shit, but hey, he's got someone. Maybe it'll better him.

Yeah, I mean sometimes I actually love ken better people. Yeah, it can make it. Sometimes it can make them worse too, So there's a flip side to everything.

It's interesting that someone can find that in someone.

Yeah, I mean it would have been on her to reach out to him, right.

Yeah, And beauty is in the eye to beholder one way or another, so.

I think there was often to say on that. There were some articles as well that said that she'd had even gone to his trial.

So yeah, I mean good for them.

So yeah, he had reached out to his lawyers. He wanted to move to Moscow and marry his girlfriend. Of course, the victims' families shared their concerns, with the press putting on the pressure to keep him locked up, and before anyone knew it, Anatotally's petition was under consideration once again, though it was ultimately determined that anatotally stay at the hospital would be extended and he would not be released. And so, as far as I can tell, that's where

I think the best case scenario would be that he does not ever get a full release. I think, like, yeah, it's day passes, like, hey, you can go out to your thing. With all these stipulations you have to check in and you have someone follow you whatever, and you leave at eight, you're back by four something like that or nine to five whatever.

Right, Yeah, Like, I definitely think being out in the daylight would be better if he was kind of not out at night, because at night you could kind of get away with things in graveyards more so.

Right, Yeah, and like you say, not around children or anything, because he clearly has a thing with children. And if grave robbing didn't work, hey, maybe abducting would. Oh my gosh, So we would want to make sure there are all those risks taken care of.

Yeah, so this is kind of my thought here. Okay, So I do think in rare instances, people who have committed crimes do have the power to change and be rehabilitated. But for that to happen, I think remorse for their actions does need to be shown. Yes, and Anatoly doesn't have any remorse for his actions.

Okay, If he doesn't, then, yeah.

He refuses to apologize to the victims families. In twenty twenty, he said, these girls are girls. There are no parents. In my view, I don't know any of them. Besides, they buried their daughters and this is where I believe their rights over them finished. So no, I would not apologize.

Okay, Yeah, he's.

One more earlier. He told the parents you abandon your girls in the cold, and I brought them home and warmed them up, which honestly makes my blood like boil. Yeah, it's like that's brutal, it is. And this is years after he did this shit too.

He's not over his schizophrenia. He's still got this point of view of they are talking to me, they need my help, and I'm going to bypass the law and clearly these parents to do so. Yeah, so if he can ever get over that, then I may advocate for him to potentially be released. Uncertain, Yeah we can't. Yeah, wholeheartedly agree with.

You, because I mean initially he basically was like, don't bury them too deeply. Now he's not apologizing to the family and he's basically accusing them for leaving them in the cold, Like that's not okay, that's not okay. He needs to have remorse for what he's done.

In my opinion, definitely, definitely why did you let me go on a rent like that? Saying I fucking advocate for him? And then you're like, actually, he's a piece of shit, and I'm just like, wow, well now I feel like a complete douche Canado.

Thanks, that's I had to let you get your words out right.

Yeah, but all I need to do is let you talk for another minute, and my whole theories and shit would have changed.

Well anyway, I'm sure people enjoyed it so rightfully. So the victims' families claim that there'll be no peace for them if he does ever get released. One of the victims, I feel like it was one of the first victims. She was aged ten when anatolely dug her up and this little girl had been murdered. So to say that her family had already been through enough would be an understatement.

Wow.

So I mean that's the other thing. This has affected people, even his parents, in such horrible ways. And but yet he's not really like remorseful. So is he healed? Like, is he actually rehabilitated.

No, if he's not remorseful, he's not. And that's that's the key. He needs to get the help he needs to get there. And if he can't get that help or he can't get there, then that's a boundary he's never going to be able to overcome.

Yeah.

And I just at the end there, when you were talking about his parents, I just realized the irony in this whole case, because he's talking about wanting to have a family wanting to find children right, bring them home, and he wants to be the best for his children. So he wants a family, yet he turned his back and his actual family. He wants the perfect children, and he was probably the worst of what a child could be.

Well yeah, I mean I can't imagine. I mean, for many years he probably was okay, but it's like, I can't imagine what they're going through now.

But his relation his acts as a child drove his parents to have a conversation if they should kill themselves or not. Yeah, what kind of child does that?

Yeah, that's really sad.

Maybe he should have thought about what he was like as a child to his parents before he was looking for his own.

Well, I mean one of the articles did say they were still living in that same spot, so the parents do need to probably move. But I mean there would be old They would be quite older at this time too.

Yeah.

Yeah, so there you go.

That's a case in a half. I had a lot of opinions on that one. Sorry for that.

You did actually have a lot of opinions. And sorry, I feel like I fumbled a little bit, But I have some pain in my neck that I'm dealing with and it's distract I had a mole removed today and it's actually hurting. I should have taken smibie profen.

You should have so you have you have, you have good courage.

Yeah.

Help.

Then at one point I just stop them and like just take take a second, and I just.

Like touk giants chugged half the cam.

Yeah. It's interesting when you have like a little distraction, how it can distract you even more.

Yeahh no, I get that. Like out of the corner of my eye, I just see a little little.

Husky, little honeybee, little.

Honey curled up, sleeping away.

She's so sweet. It's ridiculous.

She's fitting to her family.

Great. Oh yeah, it's ridiculous. How well she's fitting in here.

Yeah. If you are part of our Patreon or anything like that or social media, think you put it on Instagram a couple of times even.

Once I think, yeah, we've only put one post a lot that was something actually in the giveaway. A lot of people want to see more and hear more with the dogs.

Yeah, but if you might have seen them snuggling. But people also we also asked our patrons what sort of stuff they want to see over on Patreon little more. They really want to see like vlogs, so behind the scenes, like video more of that. So those are gonna be coming down the pipe here pretty quick. I think I need to get in a coal to be ready in front of the camera.

Okay, well, two things. First of all, today you have some freaking facial reactions that were unbelievable, and I'm sure people would probably have loved to see those. But also a lot of times when we're podcasting, like I look like a piece of shit. Well, so then I have to like look nice, well and presentable all the time.

I'm talking vlogs right now. Oh, we don't have the cameras set up positions for like actual filming podcasts just yet. Hopefully in a few months to come. Maybe that's in the near future at least, we don't know. But for now, we can definitely do vlogs for sure.

Okay, yeah, well.

Logs and live streams maybe that sort of stuff.

Will we be doing a vlog when we go to Tafino, Oh, because I think we've already mentioned this, but we're we're bringing both puppers with us, which is going to be a shit show and a half.

Yeah, that'll be fun.

Because it's literally about a thirteen or fourteen hour drive for us to get there. Yep, with two young huskies.

We are stopping overnight on the way there and back.

We are ye not being total assholes to them.

But we got to stop by Taco Fino. We gotta put another sticker on the truck. Oh yeah, if you guys are ever into Fino and you stop by the food truck Taco Fino, it's covered in stickers. There's currently. Nicole was there last summer and put a sticker of Jacko on.

The side when I had put a sticker on at the brewery there too on the door.

Yeah, we should uh maybe put the Do we put Gothic? Gothic and grim one?

Do we have stickers right now?

We got a few, I think kicking around.

If not, we better get some order here.

Yeah, I guess. Eh, Holy shat, holy shiat indeed.

Okay, Well, anyway, thanks so much for listening to this rigging roller coaster. It wasn't quite as bad as the Donnelly's.

You know, you didn't say orgasms.

It's a badism, so shit. Yeah, I should have threw that in there next.

Time, next time. On wicked and grim. Nicole's is orgathering every five seconds. Oh wow, that would be a case and a half. Wow. But yeah, so we appreciate you guys being here. You guys literally make this an absolutely incredible experience for us. I know, every podcast episode, I'm always thanking you saying how awesome you are.

But we really actually mean it.

We do. It's not a scripted segment. We just we say it because we mean it, and I always say it because Nicole has always had a loss for words and she just looks to me to say it because I'm better with it. Again, I don't know, you just kind of have Hey, you said you give us a wrap up this time.

Oh okay, the wrap ups are hard because you legitimately do them every time.

Yeah, but I just say it. So you just said I just do it, So you can just do it. Go go for it. I believe in you.

Well, now i'd be like I'm being passive, but honestly, pressure we literally do appreciate every one of you, whether you're like a patron or a listener, we just appreciate you. And you can find us on the website. I don't even know what our website is. Instagram, Facebook, YouTube, The Wicked What are we? The Wicked Life, The Wicked Life.

Okay, you're doing great, keep going.

Oh my gosh, I don't even know how you in this. So anyway, if you want to learn more about us, find us on Facebook, Instagram, you can gmail us.

We do you want me to just do it? You can email us. All right, I got it, I got it. You did great. Next time maybe next time, Okay, okay, okay. We appreciate you guys here, guys are absolutely incredible. Thank you so much for being here. If you want to check out any of our social media link down below. We have Instagram, Facebook, website, YouTube, you name it. You can of course gmail us, send us an email. You can give us a rating on Spotify, you can give

God, good work. See that's the problem. It's like your job. I'm just like, here is a prop. This is like your job.

It's my job.

Like, you're just good at this shit.

I'm just talking, just saying things.

Anyway. Ben's awesome, You're awesome. We're all awesome and until next time. No, you're all wicked, wickedly awesome. Until next time, stay wicked.