Morning. The following podcast and Jean's grab content and material intended for a mature audience.
Listener discretion is advised.
Happy Tuesday. What's up? Guys? Whoa?
Whoa?
Are you? Okay?
My balls just dropped? Sorry, shit, I don't know what happened there.
That was interesting?
No kidding? Wow, Welcome to Wicked.
And Crimps, where it's ran by a how old am I thirty three and a thirteen year old? Currently?
Yeah, this is a true crime podcast. What's up? Welcome to the show.
Yeah, yeah, Wicked and Grim? Did you say that?
Did we say Wicked?
Ingram? I don't know? Wicked and Graham? Welcome.
This was one hell of an intro. So we're all over the place. Sorry, this is Wicked and Graham, a true crime podcast. My name's Ben, I'm Nicole, And yeah, you're listening to the show Wicked and Grim. I think we said that like three times.
Yeah, so now you really know what the hell you're like?
Percent But you're listening to part two today of the Black Dahlia.
Yes, you made this wait a whole week.
I did. And this was not an easy case to research because, oh my god, the rabbit holes are ridiculous.
There's a lot to it.
Hey, oh hell yeah. There are theories left, right and center. There's subtle little details and nuances that you can go off for hours on. It's it's crazy. There's movies, there's books, there's documentaries, there's forums, there's websites, you name it. It's it's it's a roller coaster.
Sounds fun but not fun.
Yeah, it was hell to search button. Man, it was. It was fun to go into. So before we get into it, though, what do we got to talk about today?
Well, for one, we're drinking very tasty hot chocolates because well today we're recording this on a Monday, it's National Hot Chocolate Day.
Yeah, so happy National Hot Chocolate Day. We gotta get.
I mean, if you're listening to this tomorrow, your day late. But that's okay. You can still have a hot chocolate you know what.
It might not be National Hot Chocolate Day, but every day is hot chocolate Day.
I freaking love hot chocolate. I could drink it every day. It's it's fucking good, so good, so good. It's like your chocolate milk.
Almost okay for you, it's good, but nothing can beat chocolate milk. I'm sorry.
So good.
I mean, they they're pretty similar. I'll give them that.
It's like a warm hug and a cup.
Yeah, well chocolate milk is like, no, that doesn't sound right. I was gonna say an orgasm in a cup. That does not sound right.
Ew yeah, that's wow. So you might have just ruined chocolate for like everyone listening.
Impossible, so silky deliciousness?
Oh god? Okay, what else?
We got to thank patrons again because you guys are continuing to support us and you're absolutely amazing. If you want to support us, head over to Patreon you can sign up. And we got to thank our people who signed up this week, so we got to think. Of course, we gotta think, hold on, my list is out here.
You need help, I need help?
Hold on?
Oh there we go.
I think I got it. Where do we leave off? We left off of.
Caitlyn last time, right, Caitlin Black?
Yeah, So after Caitlin, Laurie Brennan signed up and then we got and I'm sorry if I pronounced your last name wrong. Nicole's like, you can do it because I'm not going to try to pronounce your name, so she's leaving it to me. So I'm sorry if I butcher, but Lauri Egan or I don't know, but Laura, Laura, you're awesome, Yes, one hundred percent. You're wicked us wicked and desiree Salarin. I hope I said your last name too. Either way, if I said your name's wrong or right,
I am so sorry. But you guys are wicked awesome. Thank you so much for supporting us.
Thank you. We can't thank you enough, really we can't.
But we can say your name wrong.
We can do that in like wicked and grim style.
Yep, while drinking hot chocolate.
There you go.
So yeah, thank you very much for signing up for patron and being awesome.
And then the other thing we have to talk about is how probably an accumulating accumulation of twenty minutes today I have talked about and different times, how sore your arms are.
My arms are so sore, like so sore. Okay, So story like with pre covid, brought it up. Pre covid, I was starting to go to the gym like lots was. I ripped.
No, but we were both doing a really good action.
Yeah, we're starting getting pretty good shape. Yeah, I was almost at two hundred pounds. I was I think two nine at my lowest, and currently I am at my all time heaviest at two hundred and thirty eight pounds. So that's not fun. So I got to go back to the gym. And I went back to the gym for the first time the other day. I thought I did a light workout.
You did not. Clearly, turns out my arms are dead.
I can't even straighten them. My biceps are so seized up there you're just flexed at I'm permaflexed right now, like in a relaxed state. My biceps are solid and flex they are so seized up it's it hurts. I love.
It's just like such a guy thing too, that you're just like totally okay with saying how much you weigh, because I don't think I would ever just be like casually, this is how much I used to weigh, this is how much I weigh now, like that's like thirty pounds more. Holy shit.
I personally don't think people should be ashamed.
I know they shouldn't, but it's just it is like, I feel like guys and girls are quite different with how open they are. I definitely understand to discuss that, right.
Well, maybe maybe me being able to discuss my highest weight ever is going to give someone else's ability to maybe not feel so self conscious about them with their highest weight.
I'm definitely at my highest weight right now too, which is kind of sad.
Not going to divulge it though, No, no.
Don't source me.
I wasn't forcing you. I was just asking what your intentions were.
But I also kind of don't really want to be like fixated on that number like I had before, and more so just developing a healthy lifestyle where I can I can like maintain it down the road and it's not just like, oh, for one month, I'm going to like eat really healthy. In the next month, I'm gonna eat chick Chico Chicken. Off fucking mind.
I fucking love Chico Chicken.
We love Chico Chicken. But is that I wonder if that's in the States too.
Oh, I'm pretty sure it is.
It probably is. But yeah, so that's kind of my goal and just like feel like I can go maybe up a flight of stairs without being winded. That would be my ideal being healthy.
Yeah. See, my goal is I want to drop down to two hundred pounds, not because I think I'll be healthiest there, but because I want to see the change in my body too, dropping to two hundred pounds and then from there, I want to understand, Okay, how can I make myself my healthiest? Do I need to gain a bit more weight? Can I be a little more relaxed on myself? So I want to be able to have a spot where I can start and then adjust accordingly.
Because you're like six feet, right, six, So I feel like for a six foot dude, being like two hundred pounds or over whatever, I don't feel like is crazy.
Oh no, definitely not even Like two thirty two forty is fairly normal for a dude my size. But I just want.
To I want to get to that healthy.
I don't feel healthy, not whatsoever. Yeah, so I got to get healthy, and I think a reset to two hundred pounds is a good way of doing it because then I can adjust accordingly. Do you gain weight or not?
Forty pound goal?
Yeah?
Wow, let's do it. That's awesome. Do it.
I don't think I'm going to stay at two hundred because I think that's too little. For the record, I think it's way too little. But I want to get there just so I ease my mind to be like, Okay, now I can go to work.
I must have to do cardio then like wait, say oh yeah.
But I gotta get my muscles back to being used to doing things.
I want to squeeze them so bad.
Maybe when I am not hurting.
Well, like I'm right now, I want to squeeze no hurting and just listening to squeal a.
Welcome to the Torture Podcast where my co host and wife tortures me.
Oh my gosh, I don't.
Let's get back to the show.
Though, Yeah, let's do. It's okay because you left us off. Okay, if I'm remembering correctly here, because I have not re listened to the episode, which I wanted to do, but I didn't where we were going to start be going over theories and such, right, correct, which I'm kind of excited.
So we did go over one theory in the last episode, which I'm just opening last episode's notes to remember. Said dude's name, Robert Redmanly. That's who it was, so went over that theory. He was the one who drove Elizabeth back to la and was one of the last people to see her alive at the hotel. He dropped her.
Basically Yeah, So.
I'm going to do a bit of a recap on the whole case of Elizabeth here, so you can get your mind all freshened up. So black Dolly apart, two buckle up.
So.
In nineteen forty seven, Elizabeth was taken by someone, possibly near the Baltimore Hotel in Los Angeles, kept for several days under horrific savage conditions, beaten, tortured, killed, and then her body desecrated and dumped in an empty lot. She was found nude, drained of her blood, cut in half at the waist, with three inch cuts from her the corner of her mouth up towards her ear, forcing a
horrific smile on her cold face. There were letters sent to the police and media from the alleged killer, taunting them and even sending them personal effects from Elizabeth. But even with over one hundred suspects, police still couldn't find her killer, and the case is unsolved to this day. Everyone trying to understand what happened to Elizabeth Short.
That's just brutal. Yeah, it's just brutal.
Oh it is. Now there are some reports and stories out there that spend the whole tale of a young woman who is desperate for money while walking among the flashing Hollywood lights, desperate to make an income while she tried to keep her dream of becoming a film star live by turning into a sex worker, a job she hated but simply had to do. The reports continued to paint Elizabeth as a man hating wannaby actress who would get caught up in party scenes being involved in unsavory people.
And let's just say, we're about to dive into some of the most popular and convincing theories surrounding Elizabeth's short aka to Black Dahlia, and we're going to divault some of this information whether it's true or false.
Okay, you know, I just hate this so that it's not solved. I just hate unsolved cases.
I personally like unsolved cases, but there are some I dislike. I would really really love if this was solved.
Mm hmm. I mean it's it's fun in the sense we're not fun, but like brain fun, I guess you could say, in the sense where you're like, oh my gosh, like what could it be, and you're like trying to think it through and going over all the theories and like trying to solve it in your brain and stuff. But then I don't know just that it actually isn't solved as so sad. But there's like solf cases out there too that are wrong.
So that's true. That's very true, and like years later they've been proven wrong and then like they're like, oh shit, we got the wrong guy.
So I prefer an unsolved versus something that's solved but wrong.
That's true. So anyways, we're going to start this off by talking about a person by the name of Leslie Dylan Okay okay so. Leslie was a twenty seven year old bell hop and was an aspiring writer and former mortician's assistant who became a suspect when he began writing to Lost Angeles the Los Angeles Police Department psychiatrist doctor J. Paul De River or d River. I think it's two words d River. I'll go with that sounds better than it does. Sounds like I'm talking with a speech impediment
over by de River. So Dee River in October of nineteen forty eight. Now, Leslie was living in Florida at the time of his correspondence with Dee River, but had formerly lived in Los Angeles. He read a story about the case of the Black Dahlia in a true detective style magazine in which Dee River was quoted and wrote to Dee River regarding his theories of the case. Now, he offered up one of his friends, Jeff Connors, as
a likely suspect. Over the course of their correspondence, d River began to believe that Connors did not actually exist and that Leslie had committed the murder himself.
Wow, could you imagine that that's the case.
It's definitely not, because they always say, like the perpetrator returns to the scene of the crime. That's very common. So this is definitely a way of him like staying in touch with the case kind of proverbally proverbal perfect perverbally perverb I can't say the word, but basically reaching out and still keeping in touch with the case. So he's making those correspondents and kind of weasling his way back in it almost.
Or going to their funerals and stuff. I've heard of that.
Too, exactly.
Just horrific.
Yeah, no kidding, no, don't do that. If you're in like Hollywood movie lots of time, you're always the person in the back with a mysterious black umbrella in the suit, standing under a tree while it's pouring rain. People are like, who's that guy? I don't know?
And then they just disappear.
Yeah, and when you go look back, they're gone, yep, that sort of shit.
Hate that.
Fuck those people. That's all I gotta say. But please please do that at my funeral. Someone do that when I pass away. Stand off in a distance and be a total creeper. Yes, clad in black, whether it's sunny or raining, bring an umbrella, whether it's overcast, whether it's winter, spring, I don't care. Black umbrella is a must.
Okay, oh god.
Even better if you are like a super sad woman all black lace and everything and you're like crying, because then it's like, oh shit, did Ben have like a second family or something? What the fuck is this? And it really gets people.
Guessing, wow, I don't well, I'm glad that I know this ahead of her. I guess wow.
Just to really get people questioning, oh.
Yeah, you just want to fuck with everyone from the grave?
Eh it? Yeah? One lass ura right there you go. Well anyways, In December of nineteen forty eight, Dylan agreed to meet with de Rivers. Sorry, Leslie, Dylan Leslie agreed to meet with Dee Rivers and was given the choice of one of three cities, Los Angeles, Phoenix, Los Angeles, Los Angeles Phoenix, Arizona, or Los Angeles Nevada. There we go Los Angeles, Phoenix, Arizona, or Los Angeles, Nevada. That took me really long time to get it because this is the way I wrote it. It was just really weird.
But anyways, Leslie expressed reservations about Los Angeles and chose Las Vegas instead. So Dee River and undercover LAPD's officer, Sergeant John JJ O'Mara of the Los Angeles Police Department, who served under already said he was LAPD double information for you. Anyways, he served as an undercover. He served undercover as his chauffeur and bodyguard smart E right. Also Lieutenant William joined along as well as being undercover as well.
So we had basically two chauffeurs slash bodyguards go along with him, which were undercover cops.
And was this dude had the reputation that he would need a body bodyguard.
So I don't know, but I mean he is. He's in correlation with the LAPD. So it's like you know, we're just going to send you some drivers or chauffeur or whatever.
Rate.
It's a business trip, business expense sort of thing. Yeah, so that's kind of what I took it as. Anyways, So anyways, the two police officers met Dee River at his home and drove to meet with Leslie. Now de River and undercover LPED officers met Leslie in Las Vegas for a couple of days, and then they proceeded to drive back to California. Once there, Leslie and d River traveled to San Francisco to look for their suspect, Jeff Connor,
who Leslie claimed was involved. However, they were unsuccessful in searching or in finding this individually.
Didn't exist. Right, Well, we'll get to that.
We'll get to that. Okay, So you're thinking he does not exist, that's what your your thought is.
Sure, Sure, I don't know if I have enough information to say say for sure, but I'm going to go with that.
Well that's a speculation of authorities currently.
Okay, I'm going to go with that.
Okay, I'm going to tell you at this point in time, I'm not going to tell you what I know, but while researching, at this point in time, I agree.
Okay, Okay, so that means that's wrong. But let's go.
I'm not saying it's wrong. I'm just not saying it's right either. It could be either.
Okay.
Now. During the time they spent together, Leslie apparently offered up intimate details about the crime and talked very disturbingly over certain things, one of which being a conversation about Elizabeth Short and why her body would be cut in half. Sergeant O'Mara said that there was talk when discussing Elizabeth's body, the incision and the cut through the body. Specifically, Yeah, Leslie, according to Sergeant O'Mara, said, he was He said this,
This is a quote directly from Leslie. The person would want to see how far his penis went into the person.
What.
Yeah, so that's his theory on why she was cut in half.
Mother of god, I was not expecting that.
Neither was I. That is fucked up.
I hate that. Yeah, Like that is disturbing.
Oh, that is beyond disturbing.
That is fact, one of the most horrend disturbing things I think I've ever heard.
Yeah, okay, so we went there sleep with that information tonight.
Wow, Holy shit, you good. This is why Monday nights, I never sleep well.
Hey, specifically because of this ship that gets.
In my brain and then I have to go to bed.
Well, the fact that there's people out there with that sort of mentality is so fucked up.
Yeah, I don't think. I don't even think I could ever go there.
Well, the fact that executing it is far, like it's of course the farthest you can go. But even just thinking it is bad enough. Yeah, like thinking like, oh, someone would totally do that.
They can't even go there. It just doesn't go there.
Yet me either, I was like, what they fucking excuse me when I read that?
Holy shit, I hate it. So I don't like this person at all, Like, no dom with them.
Yeah, I feel you.
Now.
After arriving in LA and taking Leslie to the location where Elizabeth's bondy was found, Leslie was visibly distressed and potentially even began to realize he himself was a suspect. It wasn't long before Leslie was actually taken into custody and booked as a suspect on January tenth, nineteen forty nine, at the Highland Park Station. Now police soon discovered that Leslie's friend, Jeff Connors did exist, did indeed exist? His
real name was Artie Lane. Lane had lived in Los Angeles at the time of the murder and was employed as a maintenance man by Columbia Studios, a favorite hangout of Elizabeth's. Oh so there is potential tie there, Okay. Now, Dee River made recordings of his interviews with Leslie Dylon where he garan sorry, where he questioned his suspect about the detail of Elizabeth Shorts murders. And I actually have a little bit of their conversation, So I'm going to
back and forth here a little bit. So de River said, what do you think the killer did with the hair shaved off the private parts of the body of Elizabeth Short? Because her pubic care had been trimmed at least. I don't know if it was fully shaved, but it was at least trimmed, forcefully trimmed, like by the killer sort of thing.
But it wasn't all right.
I don't believe it was fully.
Because I feel like I saw a picture and there was that some there.
The picture is also very deceiving because she had a lot of cuts in that area too.
Oh okay, And I definitely like zoom in to look. So yes, okay, okay.
So Dylan's response was, I think the killer such as he was would probably have thrown the hair in the toilet and flush it. Dee River, what do you think a killer such as he would want would do with a piece of flesh with a tattoo on it that he cut off her thigh? This was a new piece of information that I did not find until running across this. Okay, Apparently she had a small tattoo. I don't know of what, but it was removed and cut from her body as well.
Interesting, that's something a killer would keep us, like a trophy.
Definitely. Yeah, So Dylan responded, well, I think you would probably have thrown that down the toilet and flushed it.
No, that's a keeper.
I think so too. That's a trophy, like you say.
Yeah.
Now, On another recording of interview with them, Dee River asked, are you the one who murdered Elizabeth Short? Dylan responded, doctor d River, the trouble with this is that you first reached your own conclusion about the case, and then you try dig up things to prove that your conclusions are correct. De River, what do you think I am a child? What do you mean by talking to me that way. I'm a person who has been around. That's all I could find of said recording and the transcription
that came from it. Now, this seems weird to me, just saying because I agree with you. Any person in the right mind seeing that a killer carved out a tattoo from a person would obviously say that's a trophy. They're keeping that shit. So he's almost looking guilty to me saying the fact, Oh, he just threw it in the toilet, just like everything else. I don't know.
I find this whole thing super odd with this guy. But then I also think that if he actually did do something, I don't know if he'd be going this far. Like, I just think he's almost kind of just like really odd.
He was quite the odd individual, especially they found that out when they were driving and stuff. He was really weird because.
I think if he actually did this, I can't see that he would be like going this far because he's just like incriminating himself so much.
Yeah, So his friend that he says was responsible, Jeff Connors, he was not able to be tied to the crime. And now, also, contrary to popular belief and many other sources, Leslie could not be conclusively placed in San Francisco, where he claimed to be at the time of the murders. He also couldn't be conclusively placed in la where Elizabeth
was murdered. In fact, police never could account for his whereabouts between January ninth and January fifteenth in nineteen forty seven, the same time she disappeared and was tortured and murdered.
Hmmm, interesting, I just still don't think it's him, though, No, why don't you think it's him? Well, because I already said I just don't think.
Do you just think he wouldn't go this far?
Because I can understand sometimes like okay, like sending letters, phoning, but I don't think you'd go to this extent where he's, like, I don't know, traveling with them, and it just too far. I just think it's just too far. That's just not smart.
Now you have a point, now, Leslie would have was eventually released due to a lack of evidence, and he later filed a one hundred thousand dollars lawsuit against the city of Los Angeles, Oh Boy, but dropped the lawsuit after it emerged that he was wanted by Santa Monica Police for robbery. Okay, so he kind of fucked himself over there with that.
But the whole thing is just really weird.
Yeah.
Now.
In two thousand and four, Dee River's daughter Jackie Daniel, published a book called the Curse of the Black Dahlia, in which she expressed her belief that her father had been unfairly ignorant in seeking out Leslie as a suspect in Elizabeth's case. So she believes her dad was actually wrong and was basically just prejudiced towards Leslie in this particular, just trying to make the glove fit. I said the word, I said proverbial.
Oh there you go, yes, win, Yeah, that made me happy. Sorry, she thinks that it was Leslie or wasn't Leslie.
Sorry she thinks it was not. I mind you. I didn't read this book yet, so I didn't go into detail. I did way too much reading on other things to get into books. There's too many books, fair, god knows what. So I don't know for sure if she thinks it was Leslie or not, but I do know that she she thinks it was unfair of her father to pursue Leslie so much. And thinks it was ignorant of him to do. So.
Wow, I wonder how their father daughter relationships going.
Yeah, I don't know. I would imagine that he's actually well, he might not even be alive anymore.
So, I know what that is, such a thing to put in a book published like that.
Well, there's no, that's not the only father child's accusations within this.
Case, really really okay.
The most popular one we're going to talk about at the end here is a crazy one, and that's a son accusing his father. But before that, we got to talk about another individual here. George Knowlton, now Janie Knowlton, now sixty seven, was ten years old and living in Westminster when the nude body of Elizabeth was found. This is also I just realized. I just clicked in, yeah, that it's a daughter father.
Yeah. I was just like, okay, yep.
Now, more than forty years later, she inserted herself into one of the city's most sensational and gruesome unsolved murders ever, the Black Dahlia. She said, Oh, I just lost my spot. She said, horrific, horrifying. Long repressed memories had convinced her that her father had been the murder and the one
who caused all this. Now, there's little reliable information that is available on George Nolton except that he lived in the Los Angeles area at the time of the Black Dahlia murder and he died in an automobile accident in nineteen sixty two. The rest comes from Janis and her family. Janis was previously a professional singer and public relations firm
owner who lived in Anaheim Hills. Janis claims she witnessed her rage filled father beat Elizabeth to death with a claw hammer in the detached grudge of the family home in Westminster. Okay, that would be one hell of a fucking thing to see.
Well, no shit, I mean, and you would definitely probably suppress that.
Yep. Her claims of the horrific murder are based largely on recovered memories that surface during therapy for depression after a hysterectomy. So, huh, these memories that she had repressed came up. I don't know. I'm really conflicted about that. I understand people repressing memories, but that seems like something like it would scar you. I just don't know how you could forget that.
I mean, I have heard like people suppressed pretty graphic groupsome things. But then also it's like, would that just come up in like a therapy counseling session or would it almost have to be like a hypnosis.
Yeah, hypnotherapy. I don't know. I couldn't find if because I looked in to see if it was a hypnotherapy thing, yeah, and I couldn't find anything on that.
Huh. So, I mean I've had some counseling sessions though, where it's like you recall things, but it's nothing like that. I like, really very deep, I think, right, but I don't even know if I have anything that I buried real deep inside.
But until next session when you bring that shit up that you've been repressing, you never know.
You never know. Yeah.
Now, based on these recovered memories, though, Jen has published a book called Daddy Was the Black Dahlia Killer.
Wow.
Yeah, with a veteran crime writer Michael Newton in nineteen ninety five.
I just feel like that if that would just be things that I don't know, would you want to be like at the time of the book going out, the dad was dead dead right, Yes, Like that just seems like a terrible thing to be putting out there. Like when your dad is dead and can't talk to him about it and I don't know. Okay, okay, okay, okay, you good, I'm good.
You sure?
Yep, that's summer two, okay.
Now. In the book, she alleged that her father had been having an affair with Elizabeth and that she was staying in a makeshift bedroom in the garage, where she suffered a miscarriage. The claim continues that George murdered Elizabeth in the garage and bisected her in the sink, then forced his then ten year old daughter Janis to accompany him when he disposed of the body. Seems a little bit far fetched with me. Why would he force his
daughters to do that? That's just weird. Not saying people don't do that, they fucking do, which is weird as fuck to start with. But I just trying to get away with murder. Why would you include more?
You know, well, your kid, yeah, like your little kid.
Yeah. So, according to Janice, Elizabeth was a sex worker and a procurer of children for a child trafficking ring. Janis also claimed that a former member of the Los Angeles Sheriff's Department told her that her father was at one time considered to be a suspect in the case,
a claim that is unsupported by public records. Police to police did take her claim seriously, even excavating grounds around the childhood home where she grew up searching for evidence, but they found nothing to chie to tie George to the crime at all.
Well, yeah, I don't think you would after that amount of time.
Really No, I don't think so. Well, not necessarily. I mean, if there are bones, bones would stay. But and her body was recovered.
But then wasn't all her bones with her body?
Yeah, so her body was recovered, So I just yeah, but I mean potential other victims.
Who knows, right, truche Yeah.
Los Angeles Police Department, John P. Saint John awesome name by the way, just saying that was talked to I had talked to Janice and does not believe that there's a connection between the Black Dahlia murder and her father. He's quoted to say, we have a lot of people offering up their fathers in various relatives to the black or sorry as the Black Doahlia killer. The things that she is saying are not consistent with the facts of the case.
So why are people just offering.
I don't know, maybe they're convinced, they've convinced themselves in some way. I'm not sure. Maybe there is coincidences that are lining up that just seem too perfect for them to let go.
Yes, jeez, I don't like this person. I want to just like pretend in my head that they did this, yeah, and offer them to the police. Like that's just really weird. Yeah it is, Okay, this whole case is kind of weird though.
Yeah, you could say that we're not even into the fucking the deep waters of this.
Yeah. Now.
On March fifth, two thousand and four, Janis Nolton died of an overdose of prescription drugs in what was deemed a suicide by an Orange County, California corner's office. In twenty nineteen, Newton wrote that Janice Nolton's relatives confirmed that her father, George, was capable of violent abuse, and further reported that his boasts of having unprosecuted homicides. So, yeah, there's some shit going down.
Wow, Okay, that's really it's sad.
Actually, Yeah, Unfortunately, the entire thing it lacks substantial evidence. There's there's nothing to really show any of it. But I mean, if he did kill some people and got away with it, that ain't cool either.
Yeah. You have to wonder though, why she ended up killing herself. If it was just memories that coming back that she can't control.
Well, and she really couldn't let this go either. She actually became somewhat infamous with an online black Dolia discussion within sorry, the online black Dolia discussion communities for her insistence that the LPD was engaged in a conspiracy to discredit her story in order to conceal their knowledge of his of her father's involvement. So she was quite quite into this, and she was quite adamant, and she couldn't
let it go. So I think it was something that just over y ate up at her and just took over. Whether it's factual or whether she was can just convincing herself is who's to say.
And she just died in twenty nineteen.
Two thousand and nine.
Oh okay nine.
Now, I do want to set the record straight before we go any further. Elizabeth Short was not a sex worker or a call girl. Elizabeth Short was not an actress or a failed actress. There's no proof to support the idea that she even applied for being an extra, not to say that she didn't dream of it, but
there is no proof that she ever even tried. Elizabeth Short was also not sexually infatile and capable of intercourse, which apparently there are accusations out there of that Elizabeth was not pregnant at the time for her disappearance and death and confirmed by her autopsy, so the whole pregnancy thing is also off the board. She was not an alcoholic, she was not a lesbian, which apparently there's also allegations
of that, she was not a man hater. And finally, as some theories draw similar lines between Alisa Lamb and Elizabeth Short, there are only quincides this is at best, and Elizabeth was not at the Cecil Hotel before she disappeared.
Wow, this case is a lot of rumors going around oday and just people making a lot of things.
Yeah, Now, whether it's media looking for a good story or just rumors getting out a hand like, Elizabeth's name has been dragged through the mud since her unfortunate end, which is terribly sad.
Yes, that's really sad.
So to set the record straight on all those you got that information straight now, she was none of those things. She was not pregnant. She was just your average woman living in Los Angeles who potentially was aspiring to be an actress.
And sorry in that because you went kind of fast for all of them. Did you say that she had never been pregnant?
Uh, not been pregnant at the time of her disappearance and DEAs and con she was not pregnant at the time of her death or her disappearance, okay, which is confirmed by her autopsy. Now, I do not think she had a child as far as my research has shown. Mind you, I didn't look that up specifically, but I do not believe she's ever had a child, know.
Okay, Okay? Now, she was pretty young too, right.
She was, I believe she was. I can't remember her exact age, but I believe twenty two to twenty five somewhere.
Yeah, okay, Now on to the last.
One, now we will. This is the most notable one, okay, and it's probably one of the most like high prolific ones that people are more familiar with.
Is this one you've been teasing with me for weeks?
Yes, finally, this is George Hodell and I it's hours of information to talk about, hours days probably even so if I miss information, I am so sorry. I tried to wrap this up as best I can. All right, okay, but.
You already mentioned it, George, But this is a totally different, totally different George.
Okay, new George, new George. Now Steve Hodell's father, George had passed away and may have nineteen ninety nine, and he quickly found himself sorting through his father's belongings, trying to tie up loose ends, as one does when a family member unfortunately passes away. George Hodell was born in October tenth, nineteen oh seven, and passed away on May sixteenth,
nineteen ninety nine. He was an American physician and proudly boasted about his one hundred and eighty six IQ, well above Albert Einstein's one sixty.
You already said something of interest, but keep going.
I know I did.
What was it, the surgeon thing?
I said, physician?
But yeah, oh, but yes, yeah, I in my brain, I'm like, this guy's a surgeon. He's guilty.
But yes, you're You're definitely on the right track there.
Okay.
Now, After the success of George's medical practice and becoming head of the County's Social Hygiene Bureau. Hodell liked to enjoy the finer things in life, one of which being art. He befriended an artist and photographer Man Ray, film director John Houston, and many other associates. Together him and his friends, they shared a fondness for things others, like other things
in the finer lifestyle, like partying, drinking, womanizing. And there's many stories out there of a very darker side of the sexual activities they involved that they involved.
Themselves in this group of friends.
Basically, yes, many of them being very aggressive and dark, such as beating individuals during intercourse BDSM without the safe word pretty much.
Wow.
So that's a whole other topic. But I just wanted to just throw that in there, that that's.
A possible and they're basically brought like wealthy, powerful men, Yes, very much.
So. Now, none of this was a secret to Steve. He saw it all growing up. As he went through his father's possessions, Steve ended up finding a photo album tucked away in a box he was small enough to fit in his palm, and it was tucked away, like I said in this night neat little wooden box. It was filled with the usual pictures of his mom, his dad, and brothers, and as well portraits of his family taken by the artist and photographer Man Ray so professional photographers
by this artist friend. Okay, but towards the back there's something that caught his eye. Two pictures of a young woman, her eyes cast downward, with curly, deep black hair and pausing for a moment. Steve stared at the pictures and something clicked and he said, my god, this looks like the black Dahlia.
Wow.
A connection that was all too easy for Steve Hodell, who was an ex LAPD detective. Holy shit, yep.
Imagine finding that.
Egh, no kidding.
I think I would be like shaken.
Yeah, I mean to see something like that'd be like, there's an obvious connection here.
Yeah, so that's fucked. But I almost feel like if it's in that certain photo al but maybe it's like another kid of sorts, a secret child or something kind of where my head went right away.
I mean, it could be I never really thought of that, I don't know. Or it could be a sacred.
Lover that too. Yeah.
So now, one of the most immediate suspicions of George Hodell being was the murder in this way was Elizabeth was cut in half, Because, like we talked about, he's a physician, and Elizabeth was cut in half. It was extremely precise, with little to no damage done in the process. In fact, there is a medical name for said process. Elizabeth had been given a I'm gonna butcher this, but
I'm gonna try hemi corporal hemi corpor rectomy. Huh, a procedure that slices the body beneath the lumbar spine, the only spot where the body can be severed in half without breaking bone.
Really, Oh, there's actually a spot.
There's a specific spot.
I didn't know.
That, now you do. And that's where she.
Was way not knowing that.
I feel like I would have been okay, knowing a lot of things, or without knowing a lot of things from this case. So welcome to my word.
From a lot from a lot of our cases.
Really, Yeah, that's true, that's true. I think I'm repressing a lot of those things.
Yeah, we're gonna have to start going and counseling and bringing up ship that we're suppressing from all this show.
Probably we talk about a lot of fucked up assholes.
Yeah, Like it's ridiculous that's the majority of our conversations.
I don't know, even like making dinner and stuff, just like talking about douche canoes and like, what's the next case, Oh, you should hear it, it's fucking.
Horrific, or just weird shit in general.
Yeah, or or my favorite one, how much my arm's fucking her hurts so much.
I'm sorry that I brought this up. People, they hurt. Okay, I have literally heard that. Probably I should have counted I should asserted itally this morning just for fun, and not even have told you, well, probably fifty times.
Let's see if we can get to one hundred by the night's end.
That's okay, that's not.
Challenge accepted, all right. So that the hemi corporrectomy, it was actually a procedure taught in the nineteen thirties, the time when George had been to medical school.
Why was this taught? Sorry, I don't know, if you're going there.
I don't know why it was taught. Okay, It's one of those things that I didn't look into. There's too much for me to look into.
Yeah, that's really odd.
And it seems like it's a little bit of a if you want to learn. I mean, by all means, go go for it. Tell us why this was actually taught. I don't know. I'm assuming it's something to do with autopsies or something of the life.
Yeah, my search has seen bad enough things. I'm giving it a break.
Oh, the FBI is looking at her computers, going, what the fuck? We are definitely being surveillanced. Oh, I guarantee it. So anyways, Steve surveyed this case from scratch, digging through witnesses, interviews, newspaper archives, and once he set his eye on the letters that were from the Black Dellia murders, Steve made another connection the letters that had been sent to the
police and the press. The one that was handwritten, specifically, bore a chilling resemblance to his dad's hand, so much so that Steve swears to this day that the writing is one hundred percent his father's, no doubt in his mind.
Wow.
Oh me could just breathe my face. Oh dog, you've got stinky breast. Good girl, but cool laid.
Down to her.
That was rawnch wow o meek. Oh, this whole place needs like aired out.
Now, are you okay? It's not that bad?
I don't know if she was just licking her butt or something, but that was bad anyways. So with this information, uh, Steve ended up filing a Freedom of Information Act to retrieve the FBI files on the murder and the information that the bureau had collected on his father. He sent the photographs that he had found of his father's photo album for facial recognition experts to examine. One remains unknown and the other one has been identified potentially as another woman, both not being certain.
Oh, like, they're not certain it's even her.
They're not photos, but they can't conclusively say yes or no. Now, I've I've seen mixed reviews on if the one woman had actually been identified in the in one photo. Hm, So I'm not certain if it's this woman has been identified as a certain individual, or has been identified that this is not Elizabeth Okay, Again, mixed reviews on that one. However, the second photo, for sure is inconclusive whether it's her or not.
Okay.
Now, a handwriting expert determined that there was strong likelihood that the father's handwriting match to script on some of the notes that the killer had sent the LBPD, but the results again were also inconclusive.
Because i feel like actually people, it's as she when I don't know, just back in the day when everyone kind of was right handwriting like the same. Yeah, I feel like it could actually be resemblance without potentially there's.
Potential, but there's little nuances on how someone writes something.
The director, the pressure, the pressure.
The direction you write a letter, if you if we all do in a zero, we're all going to do it differently. We'll start at a different spot and we'll go a different direction. We'll do different sizes. It might slant slightly, it might be shorter and fatter, it might be taller skin. There's a lot of little things that give it away. Now, in the archives that Steve had actually been able to get from the authorities, Steve found a folder containing receipts for contract working in his childhood home.
One of the receipts showed a purchase of a few days before schwartz murder, ten five pound bags of concrete. Now, at the scene of the crime, not too far away, there was a bag that was found of concrete. And this was the same brand and same size of said concrete bag that had been found.
What does that mean? Sorry, So, when she was put in the concrete bag, or that they this person had plans.
Potentially they believe that in one of these bags that I had found by the crime scene, that the killer may have used this bag for transport, transport and carry her body. Now, the bag was from a brand of concrete. Okay, powder that you mix up and everything. The bags in said receipt were the same size of bag and the same brand of bag that was found at the scene of the crime.
Okay, But would the dad have had any other use for this concrete? Maybe he's buying for something.
Maybe, So sorry, I'm just like you're playing devil's advocates. I usually do that.
I really am here.
It's a good though now as a civilian. As a civilian now, because he has retired, Steve doesn't have access to the original police files, and an officer actually admitted to him he even if he did have access, majority of the physical evidence has been lost over the years, most of the witnesses are dead, and the original cops that worked the case are also deceased.
So this is just like never going to get solved, probably mean.
Most likely. But yeah, Now, in two thousand and one, after two years of researching the case full time, Hodell or Steve Hodell turned to another individual, Stephen Kay, an acquaintance of it who worked at the Los Angeles County
District Attorney's office. Steve still wasn't sure he could be he could prove beyond a reasonable doubt that his father was the Black Dahlia Killer, but he was convinced his investigation had unearthed enough new material to justify a fresh look from law enforcement officials into the into the case. So his friend Steve Kay agreed. He said, all right,
let's review the files. So he went in, and six weeks later Kay responded to him with a glowing letter saying this, thanks to some great detective work by this Sorry I butchered that sentence. Thanks to some great detective work by his courageous son Steve, the name of doctor George Hodell will live in infamy. What do you think that means?
I have no idea. Actually, I was going to ask that, I feel like I'm asking too many Well, so I just didn't.
Let's just say this. He continued to say that if George was still alive, he would file two charges of murder against him. Oh wow, he believes Steve was right.
Wow. Hey, yeah, huh okay, But I also just still find this so interesting that like these parents and stuff are dead and then the kids are just like, I don't know, I feel like i'd bury that, but I don't know. Maybe that makes me a terrible person. I don't know.
You don't know.
I don't know how far I would dig into this, right, you know?
Well, I mean it's it's a bit different because he is and he's a retired detective.
True, that's true, very true.
So I mean it's yeah, you would.
Be very curious, but then how far would you go with it too? Is just what I'm kind of getting at here.
So if you were a retired detective and your father could be a prolific murderer or serial killer, you you can't tell me you wouldn't try to do something write about that, or you'd cover it up for him.
I don't know. I don't know if I should answer this.
In case your dad is listening. Uh well, moving on from that, I won't put that pressure on you. I'll take that pressure off. Steve Lopez. There's a lot of Steves in this, by the way. Steve Lopez, a columnist at the Los Angeles Times, received a copy of Steve's book that he wrote shortly after this and decided to write about it. While in fact checking his column, Lopez asked the Los Angeles County District Attorney's Office for more
information on the murder. The DA's office complied, and Lopez received access to a file that Lieutenant Frank Jemison, one of the original officers involved in the investigation, had left behind in a safe in the basement at the District Attorney's office. The file a copy of which the District Attorney also shared with The Guardian. You know, the Guardian write the articles.
The new source of the newspaper kind of thing yep.
Contains an assortment of photographs, newspapers, clippings, and several hundred pages of typed interview notes, pixelated with age and compiled and blah blah blah blah now burieden said notes is the bombshell that Steve had been hoping for. The Los Angeles Police Department was focused on six suspects back in the day, back when this case was originally occurring in the forties, and George Hodell was one of those six.
In the original file Wow, no way.
Yes way now. Originally he gained attention from the police. In late nineteen forty nine, George's teenage daughter Tamar accused him of sexual abuse and impregnating her.
Okay that his kid.
Yep, his daughter.
I hate that.
The daughter gave birth to a wow to a daughter named Fauna, and her birth father was unknown.
Wow.
Troubled Tomorrow gave up Fauna for adoption. Fauner later learned of her true origins and unfortunately she never really ever found out who her true father was and it's unknown to this day.
Humh.
Now, George Hodell was acquitted after a widely publicized trial. Two witnesses to the alleged abuse testified at the trial. A third recanted their earlier testimony and refused to come forward, with one theory being that Hodell threatened them into silence. Now, Tomar's testimony was perceived as contradictory and nothing more than attention seeking.
Well, money can do a lot of things for.
You too, that's true. So just to point this out, I believe his daughter Tomorrow was sixteen when she gave birth.
Holy hat. Yes, So this guy is just pure evil?
Yes really yes, if he is doing these things, he is fucking disgusting.
Fuck this guy, which I also think it's so incredible that his son went to go and be a detective. Oh yeah, definitely, because Okay, this I don't know if I should be saying this, but I feel like it's almost one or the other. When you have just like a terrible upbringing, I feel like you're either going to become a police officer or you're going to become a serial killer. Like it's like one or the other, almost, isn't it.
I Mean I don't think it's always that.
Now, but it's like you hear about that often. Yeah, either you're following their footsteps or you're doing the complate opposite to like save people.
You're not wrong, but you're also not right. But you're not wrong.
I'm not wrong because it's just it's probably a very small percentage of people.
But yeah, it's it's funny how it works out that way. Unfortunately, not funny, but you know what I mean.
Yeah, just from cases we've researched.
Yeah, so now, also another piece of information that came up was at the time of the murder, there was a black car that had been seen around the scene of the crime by locals in the area, A car that matched the description of George Hodels jeez, yep, wow, So we have one more big bomb to drop. There was another major bomb with George.
Yes, here, you feel like you dropped a lot.
In those files that were recovered, there is a transcript from a period in nineteen fifty when the police were bugging George Hodell's home. Most of the transcript is dull. Hodell has sax, he beats his secretary apparently holy shit, talks about money problems. But on ninth, the nineteenth of February in nineteen fifty, there's a haunting exchange. Now I don't know specifically what this means, so I'm going to read it exactly what this line says. Okay, eight twenty
five pm. Quote, woman screamed, woman screamed again. In brackets, it should be noted the woman not heard before the scream end quote. So there's a few different ways to interpret that. I'm interpreting it as they hear a woman's scream, and then they hear a woman scream again, and they never heard a woman's voice prior to That's what I interpret that as. Okay, Yeah, Now, later in that day, also in these transcripts, Hotel talks to a confidant and
says this, realize there was nothing I could do. Put a pillow over her head and cover it with a blanket. Get a taxi expired twelve fifty nine. They thought there was something fishy anyway, now they have figured it out, killed her.
Huh. Okay, But back to that woman's screaming thing, is that like he listening to like a recording or there's like someone in his house that he's hurting.
I went there, well, I mean, coupled with this conversation here, to me, it sounds like there's someone he hurt, someone he killed.
Wow.
Okay, Now the surveillance continues routinely, but for one telling moment. This is the last transcript that I have here. Quote supposing I did kill the black Dohlia, they couldn't prove it. Now they can't talk to my secretary anymore because she's dead.
End quote because he killed her.
Could have been the woman you heard scream.
Jeez, how is he How did he not have to go to jail even after hearing like those transcripts.
Because these transcripts cannot legally be taken into account. The Hodel household was illegally bugged.
Well, then why ball they're bugging it?
I know, right, the conversations that transcripts are effectively moot in the court of law. Unfortunately.
Yeah, no, I get that, I understand that.
Yeah. So now all these pieces coming together over the years brought light to George Hodell's wicked past and potentially murderous tendencies as we have now realized. But before I move into the final part of this theory, I want to revisit a few things. The handwriting the picture on George's photo album. There are mixed reviews on both of those. Just remember this, just because I want to make sure I portray that, so that handwriting is inconclusive either way.
George swears up and down. There are some professionals who say that it's not his writing. There are some professionals who say it is. It's inconclusive. Yeah, same with the photos. Inconclusive very well, maybe very well, may not. So just wanted to touch on that just to get that clear, so you can really soak in all the evidence that we've got here before we hit the final one. So that last part though, of the theory that we're about
to talk about. Steve believes his father and his love for art and how he looked up to his friend man Ray could be the final clue. You see, man Ray has two pieces of art, in particular, the Leah Moore and the Minotaur I'm Moray, sorry, Leah Moray French for the Lovers, and it's a composite photography piece that depicts lips of man Ray's departed lover Lee Miller, floating in the sky above a new woman lying on her side. It's believed that the woman may be dreaming a nightmare
or a Eurotic fantasy. But a cool little side note though on this is that the lips actually pictured in this piece were the inspiration for the logo and the rocky horror picture show Oh Wow, which is really cool, but also potentially the inspiration for the Black Dolly is twisted.
Smile huh, which is this guy's friend.
Yeah, so it could be the Black Dahlia. Her body ended up being a twisted piece of art that George Hodell was drawing inspiration from Manray's work, just like the Smile and this painting or this photograph my apologies. He did a similar smile by slicing open the cheeks of Elizabeth shortsh Now and the Minotaur is a black and
white photo of a nude woman's chest. She lays still, with the photo cropping her out at the waist, where she extends her arms in a relaxed fashion above her head, just like Elizabeth Short.
Okay, but we're not saying that the photographer has anything to do with this. It's just George getting inspiration from his friend.
Yes. Steve Hodell argues that it was his father, George's way of emulating his friend's art and surrealism, allowing him to build what Steve believes his father would refer to as a masterpiece, a crime so shocking and horrible it would endure and be immortalized through crime lore.
H Wow.
Now, Unfortunately, whatever George had done, or anyone else for that matter, because we don't conclusively know, the likelihood of the case of the Black Dahlia ever being solved is almost non Elizabeth has become an icon in her time, her tragic story and beauty overtaking the world of crime and mystery for what is sure to be years to come. And that is all we know. Wow, that is Elizabeth's short story, or the Tale of the Black Dahlia.
Dang I want this to be solved. Hm, my brain's gore a mile minute.
Yeah. Like I said, there are a million different paths to dive down on this. There is information for days. If you guys dive in on this, you find some new information or something, please hit us up. That'd be awesome. And of course hit us up. Let us know what you think. Who do you think is the Black Doll Avenger? According to the letters anyways?
Because they Oh, there's my books, movies and stuff like.
Everything that you can watch, right, Yeah, multiple books, there is at least one recent movie starring Scarlett Johansson. There are documentaries, there's subreddits, there's forums. Oh, my god, for days for days. Well, look at Steve Hodell researching this on his father for years.
Yeah, so wow, interesting, well done, well done.
So yeah. I I'm really conflicted with the Eizabeth short because I I want her to be remembered, but I also don't because it seems like that's just what George wanted, if it was George, if those theories are accurate, which it to me it seems like it is.
It does seem very logical. It could be that one, doesn't it.
Yeah, it's fucked up regardless though.
Yeah, it's so fucked up. Yeah, brutal.
Okay, well, you guys, thank you for listening. If you want to sign up for Patreon, you want to follow us on Instagram, Facebook, or whatever. All the stuff is down in the show notes below and the little description. You can even go buy merch if you want.
Yeah, we have some sweet merch.
We do even blankets.
Yeah, t shirts or notebooks into the blankets lately.
Actually the blankets are sick though too.
They are oh really cool.
Side note on my own Facebook, I had a ad for Red Bubble pop up advertising our own blanket to me.
Yep, you thought that was super sweet.
It's probably because I was on Red Bubble already clicking on her blanket and shit. But still it was awesome.
No, no, that's not why it was there.
Definitely not. But yes, thank you guys. Go check out the blankets merch or Instagram whatever, even if you're just going to listen to the next episode or episodes prior. We appreciate it, even if it was just this one. You're awesome and you're wicked.
Thank you day Wicked