The Barbie & Ken Killers, Part 2

Welcome back to part two of The Barbie and Ken Killers.

I'm Nicole and I'm Ben and you're listening to Wicked and Grim and Drew Grime podcast.

Morning audience listeners question.

Is what's up, guys?

Welcome.

Booze is present because we need we need booze for this case.

It's a wild one.

And I did say in the last episode I needed whiskey. I'm not drinking whiskey strictly because because it's still hot as balls and I need a cold beer.

A cold beer. You're not drinking White Claws.

Yeah, I'm drinking cold beer from Smithers Smithers Brewing Fun. It's their new cloud Waters with Beer. I saw it the liquor store and I was like, I'm trying it and at my first sip I like it good.

I'm glad.

Yeah. Anyways, after that.

Plug, yeah, not sponsored or anything not sponsored by So yeah, we're going to jump back into it as a little recap. I guess we were talking about Paul Bernardo and Carla. Hello home, whoa Carla? I can't even speak.

Wow, Nicole's had one. She's drunk.

Yeah, this is okay. Could you imagine if I was like shouldar trying to do a podcast.

We should do that one day drunk wicked and great.

Okay, well I thought that would be fun back in the day, but now that we've like started this second, you know.

If I would want to back in the day a whole like five months that we first started the podcast, So I think we should do that one day drunk wickening grim.

Yeah, maybe maybe, maybe maybe we should.

We'll put up a story and see what people think.

For sure they're gonna want it, but it might be ever disaster.

I think would be. That's the best part.

I'll have to do commentary because, like lots of times, if I'm too drunk, I can't read.

Oh, I will be so screwed. I'll be the same. It's gonna be a ship show if we do it. But I'm totally down for it.

Okay. So yeah, we're talking about Paul, and we're talking about Carla, and we're talking about how their pieces of shit cutting right to it, cutting right to it. We went through like the Scarborough rapes and then we just stopped at We've actually was quite a ship place to stop. Sorry about that pipes, but how they were going to their next victim who was going to beat Tammy Homolko. I keep saying the last name wrong, so just bear

Yeah, the biggest piece of thing you could get Christmas present. Yeah, Merry Christmas to my hobby. You can bang my sister like that's without her consented. That's really fucked. You don't get that. You can't do that.

Sorry, I know it's it's just fucked up. It's fucked.

These people are so messed up.

Okay, So yeah, I basically had dropped hit off saying that the next victim was Tammy, so to start us off. This didn't necessarily come out of left field, though, okay, because although he was engaged, he as in Paul to Carla. Paul would flirt constantly with her young sister Tammy. His obsession with her would grow on the daily.

Really, and how old is she? She's like fourteen fifteen fifteen.

He would peer into her window and enter into her room to master while sheet while she's your face.

That's fucking disgusting.

You're just like a pauled. I couldn't even get through. I'm sorry, I'm not gonna be able to look at you, Carla, helping him gain access to her sisters, right the fuck? Oh yeah, this case it just goes downhill from when I already fucking present. Earlier in July, Paul took Tammy across the border to get beer for a party, which, like that didn't make any sense to me, because like he could have gotten beer in Canada for her, and like she was young, so like and the drinking age

All right, I feel really gross listening to this, but okay, keep going.

Oh just wait, I just kind of read this next line. Okay. Carla would also role play her sister Oh in bed with Paul Oh wearing his wearing her sister's clothes, saying her name was Tammy and that she was fifteen years old and I'm your virgin.

That is why what? No, yeah, no, that's that's a whole new kind of fucked up.

Just a bit. It's a little fucked.

You are enjoying putting me through this. I think I.

Actually, okay, I put so much frickin' work into this one. This this podcast, so I'm like almost kind of like, oh, it's gonna be over.

And get my life back until next one. You have to reach it.

Yeah. But then it's also like I knew that you would just cringe at so many things, and it's kind of fun to watch. Okay, this part doesn't make a lot of sense to me, with Carla offering Tammy's virginity as a Christmas gift, but I was like, maybe this was just their first attempt at it. But one night, Carla laced Tammy's spaghetti sauce with crushed vol volume vallium vallium valium she had stolen from her employee at the Martindale Animal Clinic. She served it to her sister, who

Super strong enough for potent enough.

Okay, So like I guess I don't know if that was first attemp or maybe the very tempted, but really like it wasn't long. So then on December twenty third, nineteen ninety, this is six months before Paul and Carla were going to get married. Oh god, which is like kind of fucked up.

Yeah, this whole thing is kind of fucked up.

My back is already hurting. This is going to be a long ride. Carla had stole the anesthetic agent and like, there's some medical things, so just bear with me. Halothane halathane from the clinic. They administered sleeping pills to the fifteen year old in a rub rub rumen eggnog cocktail. You like that.

I love rummen eggnog.

Without without the sleeping pills, right.

Yes, well, I mean sometimes I want to get the nap in.

So and when Tammy lost consciousness, they undressed her and Carla applied a Hall of Fame soaked cloth to her sister's nose and mouth. With Tammy's parents sleeping upstairs, Carla and Paul videotaped themselves raping her in the basement.

They videoed it too.

Yeah, they're really into that.

Actually, So her sister was not necessarily just involved in the rape. She actually partook in the rape.

Oh yeah. There was even times where I think that she did things, but I didn't really dive into that.

Let something, she's eating something off the floor, what are you doing, ripley, ripley, what you've got? Did you find a bug or something it's gone whatever it was, or no, I don't know, there's some thing over there.

It's really a bug. Probably, So at one point Tammy began to vomit. They tried to revive her, and once the evidence was hidden, like Tammy being dressed and in her bedroom, they called nine one one. A few hours later, Tammy was pronounced dead at the Saint Catherine's General Hospital. Oh no, they killed her. Shit, really, despite their odd behavior of vacuuming and washing laundry in the middle of the night and Tammy having a nasty like it was nasty.

That's oh my god.

Like the burn was horrific on her face and I don't don't even have it in here, but they their lie or something was that while they're trying to like save her. It was carpet burn.

Really, Yeah, there is a big difference between carpet burn and chemical burn.

Yeah, Like it's honestly just it blows my mind that they didn't check into that, Like that's crazy.

No kidding, what kind of corner is this? Were they just like going down to the corner of like who knows where downtown being like, hey, yeah, someone to look at a dead body, and they're like some dudes at trench coat. Yo, I got your back, man.

We've kind of been over that before though too lot somes if they're if it's not like super suspicious, Like it's like they don't dive in.

You know, a chemical burn on the face of someone who just died of exphyxiation is super suspicious.

I would think.

So, whether she actually died of exphyxiation or it was the drug overdose regardless.

Well, yeah, like I think that she was puking, they probably didn't notice, Like they had this cloth up to her mouth and then she like choked it at on her vomit.

Jeez.

So Paul and Carla moved out of the Hamoko house shortly after to allow the parents to grieve, Carla apparently being quite annoyed that they were taking so long to get over it.

Are you fucking serious?

No? Not or I am okay. I was like, oh, you're like, okay, She's not that bad then, so she was annoyed that she was annoyed because like her wedding was approaching, so she wanted like all the attention to be on her. And then they, the parents even were thinking that she should postpone her wedding because just this traumatic event just happened, like her Brigand's sister died, and she was like basically like, get the fuck over it.

What the frig you know, like, seriously, what a piece of work? Ah, I want to call her the C word. I know, I want to say it. I can I say it? This?

Okay, okay, moving on, I love you. Paul's next rape would be on April sixth, nineteen ninety one, committing his twelfth rape, raping a fourteen year old girl in Saint Catharine's but staying away from his like regular emo. He attacked the fourteen year old in the morning rather than late at night, and it did not occur near us. Stop.

Okay, So he's evolving, like we discussed last time.

Yeah. So then on June seventh, nineteen ninety one, Carla invited a fifteen year old girl she had befriended at a pet shop years earlier over for a girl's night member she used to work at like a pets yea, right, and I'm going to refer to this girl as Jane Doe after just.

Because she's underage, is that right?

You'll find out Okay. After an evening of shopping and dining, Carla began to feed Jane Doe alcohol laced with helcy in Helcian used to treat insomnia.

Okay.

When the girl lost consciousness, Carla called Paul to tell her that his surprise virgin wedding gift was ready.

What the fuck? Like, what the fuck is.

Isn't that just like unimaginable that you're like your gifts to someone is like a freaking young person that you've drugged and that is a virgin and you're gonna let your spouse right.

Yeah, my wedding gift to you, I got you a replica Cinderella shoe, Yeah, I really.

I got you a gun, which I guess it kind of weird, but.

A hunting rifle, yes, for the record, not just like hey, here's a nine mel go cap. Some asses like no.

Paul videotape Carla raping the girl before he took over vaginally and anally penetrating her. The next morning, Jane Doe was nauseous but thought that her vomiting was from drinking alcohol for the first time and did not realize that she had been sexually assaulted.

What she was sexually she was nauseous from being sexual assaulted, well from drinking.

Like, remember they were feeding her lots of alcohol.

That okay, okay, okay. I was like, wait, so she.

Thought she was just sick from that, okay, but it was probably also it had to do I'm sure with like drinking, but then also like the drug that was in there, and then she was sore too, But like I think she just thought it.

Was from booze. Yeah, I don't know, first time boozer, doesn't know what to expect to mean.

In August, the same girl was invited back to their home to spend the night and was once again drugged and raped. At one point, Carla called nine one one as Jane Doe had appeared to stop breathe stop breathing, but called back a few minutes later to say that everything is actually all right, and the ambulance was recalled without following up. Jane Doe did survive.

She did good.

So yeah, I mean she's underage, so and she survived, so they're just referring to her chin fair enough, fair enough, I mean kind of sad, like I'm sure she's still out there and like she she had no idea. She thought she was just going to a friend's post to hang out and later has to find out that she was actually.

Like rap rap twice. Yeah, fuck no, thank you, I don't I'm never going to go to a friend's house again. Someone's like, hey, you want to come over and fucking play watch the hockey game or something. Yeah, no, I want my sphincter intact. Thank you.

Oh my gosh, this is making you going to be like a hermitting.

Probably this entire podcast, we're talking about people going out and like killing people and just crawl like the bedroom strangler, crawling in windows at night.

Oh well, I know even like, oh, I don't even think I should say this, but we've been leaving like one window open at night. That's like kind of bothersome to me. And I think I've asked you a couple of times, so okay, and you're always kitchen. Yeah, but then if you weren't tell them. That would not be fucking open. There's no way.

Well, the thing is, we do have dogs that would definitely alert us.

They would alert us. I don't know if they would do anything.

Yeah, well, you know how it goes when I wake up and I hear some strange noises.

Yeah, but if you're not home, right.

Yeah, but I've been home. Yeah, I'll break some teeth in at least I like to think I would, but I probably would just die, you would know.

Okay, So next up, because we're not quite done yet, would be Leslie Mahaffey. On June fifteenth, nineteen ninety one, Paul was in Burlington to steal license plates and came across Leslie. She was a fourteen year old girl, and just to do the math for you, Paul would have been twenty seven at that time. Fox sake Like that's nasty, Yeah, like nasty.

That's basically double her age.

Yeah, like disgusting. Leslie missed her curfew after attending a friend's wake and was locked out of her house, which I'm like, that's sad. I mean, okay, that wake was earlier in the day and then they were just like she was kind of at a celebration, and I think she was kind of like not she was not. She had some issues and her parents like locked her out, but I mean, god, they probably yeah.

Shit, I don't want to hear what's coming up.

But because also she had phoned a friend too to see if she could sleep there, but then the friend was like, no, it's not like a good idea. It's really late, like my mom might get mad, and so like Leslie was on her own and then have terrible look luck.

She ran into Paul across this dick weed.

So Paul, coming across Leslie on the street, approached her saying that he wanted to break into a neighbor's house. Leslie, being unfazed by this, was more concerned if Paul had any cigarettes.

Really, that's that's her question.

I know, I would feel like, you're out.

Alone with some strange dude and he's like, suck you want to?

Yeah, that something was at that age, especially if you're like going through something, you probably think that you're rule in.

The world, right, I guess Yeah, when.

I was dumb as a kid, I can tell you that when Paul led her to his car to get the cigarettes, I'm assuming he blindfolded her, forced her into his car, and proceeded to drive her home.

Interesting.

Okay, I needed a breath there. Paul and Carla, Okay, actually I didn't throw this in there, but it's so fucked up. It's like, okay, Carl, I think was like sleeping and in the morning was like all pissy that he had this girl there. And you want to know the reason why she was actually pissy? Why is because I guess the night before Paul had served him in Leslie's champagne, in their nice champagne glasses, like they're special ones, and so she was pissed off that.

But not the fact that he just kidnapped this young fu girl and brought her home to rape while she's sleeping.

She eventually just came around and came part of it.

These guys are fucked up, Like I can't understand. All right, Okay, I'm sorry. Moving on.

Paul and Carla then once again videotape themselves torturing and sexually abusing Leslie while they listened to Bob Marley and David Bowie.

At one point, all right, what they're sitting here torturing and sexually assaulting this girl while they're playing songs like every little thing right, like what that like.

Like this, wait till this, this next line, like this next line is like wow Okay. At one point, Paul praised Leslie, saying that she was doing a good job, a damned good job, and that the next two hours would determine her fate. Right now, her scoring was perfect.

What the fuck does that even mean?

That's nasty?

Hey wow.

The assault escalated, with Leslie crying out in pain, begging Paul to stop as he was sodomizing her and her hands were bound with twine. Leslie's fate was sealed later when she mentioned to Paul that her blindfold seemed to be slipping down. This single signaled to Paul and Carla the possibility that she could identify them if she lived. The following day, Leslie was killed.

These people make me fucking sick.

Yeah, I know. And it's almost like God, if she didn't say something about her blindfold, like would she have lived?

But probably not, But her blindfold would have fell down.

I know.

If it's slipping, it's going to keep slipping, it's going to fall down, and they would see She would see them for sure, and that would see her fate even more so. This way she rolled the dice, maybe they would fix it and it's okay, But they didn't take that. They didn't let her take the chance.

So a little glimpse into the future too. Paul claimed Carla fed her a lethal dose of hallsint halsane. I think I might be saying that wrong, helse On.

I don't know.

It was the thing for insolmia, I think. And Carla claimed that Paul strangled Leslie. So they have different different stories there.

Also in the future they kind of turn on each other a bit.

Yeah, that might be a little glimpse, A little glimpse.

They a little bit of kara at least.

They then proceeded to hold on to Leslie's dead body in their basement until after they hosted Carla's family over for dinner, at which point they then disposed of the evidence by dismembering Leslie and encasing her remains in cement. Keeping. The receipts would be held against Paul later as he purchased a dozen bags of the cement at a hardware store.

Why did he keep the receipt That's the dumbest thing he kept.

Other weird shit, Well, I mean they're fucking videotape in the ship.

Yeah, that's true.

I don't know what they're concerned about getting caught like the Rodney I'll.

Call a case. One of the things, like the dating game killer.

Yeah.

One of the things he had that convicted him was a fucking receipt.

Yeah, I mean that would probably I keep receipts. So I'm fucked.

Yeah, I do not. I'm bad at that.

So, using his grandfather father saw to dismember Leslie, Paula and Carla made a number of trips to Lake Gibson to dump Leslie's remains, leaving the heaviest block, which weighed about two hundred pounds, near the shore as they didn't have the ability to sink it. It was found a couple of weeks later on Carla and Paul's wedding day.

Don't dull they So they didn't even.

Dispose the body properly, not really, like I mean, they fucked up, Like that's two hundred pounds, Like what were they thinking? Yeah, no shit, and so yeah, they couldn't they couldn't put it deep enough and stuff, and so they just left it on the shore, all right.

Of course, someone's gonna find it.

Yeah, yeah, so the next victim would be Christian French.

How many victims are there?

I think I think this might be the last one, but I don't want to scroll and lose my spot. Paul and Carla were driving through. I'm pretty sure it is Saint Catherine's looking for a potential next victim, you know, just strolling around when God, I would be going like ice creamers.

I was just about to say, go and get some ice cream.

You drive out teenager when they okay, I mean.

You could probably get someone under age with an ice cream truck. Combine the two. I don't know, you want to get the creepy Peto van? Maybe?

Oh gosh, Okay. As they passed Holy Cross Secondary School, a Catholic high school, they spotted fifteen year old Christian Kristin making her way home. They pulled into a nearby parking lot and Carla got out of the car, approaching her with a map in hand, pretending to meet assistance. I feel like, okay, I'm actually a super bitch. Actually

From me, place your hand out like excuse that, just like stop, do not come any closer.

So as Kristin looked at the map, Paul attacked her from behind, forcing her into the front seat of the car. From the back seat, Carla subdued her by pulling her hair. Kristen, taking the same route home from school every day and arriving home at generally the same time each day, was reported missing very soon after the abduction.

Good good, Good.

Her parents convinced that something bad had happened within I thought you're drinking something.

Funey, I might burp because of the beers, some leaning away the microphone. Sorry.

Within twenty four hours, the Niagara Regional Police Service assembled a team searching Christian's root and found several witnesses who had actually seen the abduction from different locations. Her shoe was also recovered from the parking lot, which definitely showed the seriousness of the of the adduction.

One you lose the spot I did getting too distracted with me getting this because you're.

Moving around a lot like just sit there.

I leaned away from the mic for a second and then I like just reached down for a pencil, and you're just like the whole world's ending.

Okay. So over the Easter weekend, Paul and Carla videotape themselves torturing, raping, and sodomizing this girl, forcing her to drink large amounts of alcohol and submit to Paul. They never blindfolding blindfolded her, so they intended to kill her all along. Her nude body was found on April thirtieth, nineteen ninety two in a ditch in Burlington. Paul and Carla had washed her body and cut off her hair

More generally with serial killers, there's they.

Don't they don't admit to every single one, like do they really no?

And just yeah, yeah, yeah, there's of course a bigger rap sheet.

So if Paul hadn't already compromised his future, he did even more so that summer when Carla would turn into his literal punching big oh shit, severely beating her many times, causing people to notice in January, and I just mean that because like that's going to help her in court. Right. I don't know if you grated that, but I'm I did. I'm disappointed.

I got it a note take in Remember that pencil I said I was reaching for I'm writing this day.

Okay, but lots of times like you do throw out subtle hints and I don't get them. So now I'm just like, oh, maybe Ben doesn't get it.

I got it. I appreciate it. Thanks, thanks for letting me know. I appreciate it.

You got my back, and you're right. Of nineteen ninety three, Carla's parents would intervene and persuade her to take refuge in the home of one of her sisters, her sister Laurie's friend's house, whose husband was a police officer. Chargers were filed against Paul and he was arrested but later released.

Of course, they're always fucking later released every goddamn story.

Yeah, well, he's already been like, like I already mentioned it one I think once, I think in yesterday's episode, but there was other times too, like I could have. This case could probably be like five episodes. But there was other times where like police would chat with him and he just always got away with it because he was like a charmer.

I guess right, And it's like I go like five over the speed limit and I get a speeding ticket and can't talk my way out of it.

Well, honestly, I would be not guilty of something and look guilty of something. It's like, is how I would I think what happened to me?

Well, it's like like when you get pulled over by the cops and then it's like when they're slowly walking up to the vehicle from behind you, you're all of a sudden, like shit, do I have a key blow of cocaine in my glovebox? I don't even do drugs, and you're just like panic like all this random stuff like maybe I have a dead body in my trunk. I hope he doesn't search the trunk.

I know, I hope that he doesn't look around. I might know something like right.

Maybe someone left a joint behind or something like who knows, Oh my goodness, I wasn't drinking today, was I Like? All this sort of shit goes through your head.

I know then shortly after this, and this is twenty six months after Paul originally submitted his DNA sample. Remember that DNA sample, the pool of a.

Sample, the whole pool of samples.

Police were informed that it was a match of the Scarboro rapist and immediately placed Paul under twenty four hour surveillance.

So it took them two years to identify that sam.

Yeah, like, well they just kept Okay. One thing is they stopped right, the scar rape stopped when he moved, and so that almost even put them even more on the back burner because they're like, oh, they're not really happening now.

Yeah.

Still, but I'm like, that's bad. So they requested an interview with Carla on February ninth, nineteen ninety three. Despite hearing their suspicions about Paul, Carla only focused on his abuse of her. Later that night, being worried, she told her aunt and uncle that Paul was the Scarborough rapist and that her and Paul Paul were involved in the rape and murder of Leslie and Christian, and that the rapes were videotaped, were recorded on videotape.

So she just up and admitted it all.

She's telling her family. Yeah, well, I mean.

That's that's admitting it, but like, yeah to someone at.

Least, Yeah, she's admitting it. But you'll see she doesn't admit it really well.

She goes back in her word in court. Well, no official statements and stuff or what.

Carla got herself a good lawyer, George Walker. Here we go, and this is funny. She apparently knew. It's not funny. Actually, she apparently knew knew him because she cared for her his cancer, his dalmatian that had cancer. So that's actually

How is it weak? What do you mean, how is his link to the murders?

And they had think not the so they were not weak to the rapes. But they didn't have a lot of edible so the search weren't was mostly like on the grounds that he was just the Scarborough rapist and didn't murder these two girls.

Well, search weren't still allows them to search as ship for stuff.

Well okay, well I'm about I was about to get in.

Sorry, sorry, I was.

About to say everything the warrant was limited, and then I was going to say how it was limited, okay before you had your little hissy.

Sorry, I want to know this shit.

No evidence which was not expected and documented in the warrant could be removed from the premises, and all videotapes found by police had to be viewed in the house. Damage had to be kept to a minimum. Police could not tear down walls looking for videotapes. That was what it was limited to.

Were the fucking tapes in the walls.

So an extension extensive library of books and videos on sexual deviation, porn and serial killers was found, as well as a written description from Paul of every one of the Scarborough rapes. Unfortunately, the only home videotape found was a brief segment of Carla performing oral sex on Jane Doe that.

Wow, yeah, so the tapes were in the fucking walls, weren't.

They, yeah, or the ceiling or something. Yeah. Shortly after that, George George Walker, which was Carla's lawyer, and Murray Siegel Sigel I don't know who was a plea bargain specialist for the Attorney General, informed Carla that the government was offering her a plea bargain. She would get twelve years in prison and be eligible for parole in as little

Doesn't tell the truth spoiler alert. I'm sure I don't know.

She maybe does, but she also plays, She also.

Makes her she downplays her involvement.

She's a victim in her eyes, she's.

A victim of Paul, which I did kind of say that in the other episode. I felt bad for her because she's just so like taken by this dude that she's willing to do everything.

Yeah, but she's actively took in and like I also feel like she had the opportunity to leave him.

Yes, I agree, she is partly a victim. However, yes, she is also a fucking predator, a rapist her I know.

Well, yeah, he's a charmer.

Would she have done those things if it weren't for him, Probably not, So that is where I think she is a victim. However, she's still a fucking piece of shit because she did it all too. She was involved.

Okay, so this next part is a bit of a tear jerker. In March, Carla would be checked into psychiatric hospital for assessment. She also eventually got up the courage to write a very important letter. Do you have any idea who the letter would.

Be to her sister?

Her parents?

Oh? I thought it was gonna be like a beyond the grave letter sort of thing.

Okay, And it said, dear Mom, Dad, and Laurie, this is the hardest letter I'll ever have to write, and you'll probably all hate me once you read it. I've kept this inside myself for so long, and I just can't lie to you anymore. Both Paul and I are responsible for Tammy's death. I could like almost cry. Paul was in love with her and wanted to have sex with her. He wanted me to help him. He wanted me to get sleeping pills from work to drug her.

That's heartbreaking?

Like it actually like makes me feel more sweaty. And it's not just because we're in a heat wave, because it's so sad, Like, it's so sad it's so sad.

Drink some of your white claw might help take the sweatiness away. But no, definitely, that's that's straight from the heart. That's that's serious. And she's definitely feeling some not resentment to her family or even necessarily towards fucking what's his nat, Paul, but a lot towards herself for what she did rightfully.

So, but then also she is just like she's smart, right, and I think that she was she actually writing that letter from the heart or was it like trying to make the letter seem like she's a good person that just got caught up in something potentially, I don't know. I mean, she didn't even nearly necessarily have to write a letter to her family really if she didn't want to.

So Carla doesn't forgive her for what she did.

She's still a piece of shit, you know, like just brutal. Carla's trial began on June twenty eighth, nineteen ninety three, her psychiatric report helping to set the stage for the plea bargain deal. It concluded that Carla knew what was happening, but she felt totally helpless and unable to act in her own defense. Or anyone else's defense. She was, in my opinion, like the psychiatric report, paralyzed with fear and the state, and in that state became obedient and self serving.

So did she write that letter before her psychiatric evaluation in the report for her plea deal?

Do I know that?

Because if she did, then I think it most likely was a ploy to better her position.

I feel like, well, she wrote it before she was in court, then yeah, it.

Was most likely upon in her scheme, because as far as I'm concerned, because there's there's two ways I see it. Either A she and I do think she is partly a victim in this whole thing. So either A she is showing she's a victim and showing she is, though still a piece of shit, still part human. Or B she has no emotions about it and she's trying to fucking play the system and get some fucking benefit out of it.

One of those well, because something I had even not said, I forgot to actually mention it. But like there was some jealousy too with her sister, right, Oh yeah, because like Paul was flirting with her, and then I think her sister kind of liked it and was even like I'm younger and prettier and stuff, and so I could see it there was like some resentment there. But then I also don't know, I don't think that when they did that and when they were taking planning to take

I mean yeah, but also they were pissed off at Carla's parents were not getting over it soon enough for the wedding.

Well Carla was yeah.

Yeah, So clearly she doesn't have much remorse.

I know, I don't know. I know, like when at the end we can talk about it, and I feel like I, in the sense could feel bad for Carla, But I also don't think that she's as victim as she came across, and in my opinion.

I don't think so either. I do you think there's she's still partly a victim, but she's wholly responsible.

Still, well yeah, because like without her meeting him, I don't know if she would have been criminal. So the trial ended with the media only being allowed to report on a few details of the case so that the jury pool that would be selected for Paul's trial would not be tainted by information they heard prior to his trial.

Unlikely to re offend, Yeah, that doesn't mean you should be fucking forgiven or let out in public. Yeah you can still go fucking kill someone just because you're unlikely to fuck off.

Well, yeah, like just because you're unlikely too. You did all this bad shit and should you just be living a life like people who haven't done that ship exactly. I don't know.

It's like I just killed and raped, like or evolved in raping and killing combination of like twelve people. Yeah, I served a couple of years. Now let's go get white Claws and have some fucking hot dogs out of Costco. Like what the fuck?

No, well she had to, like I mean I mentioned at the end when she had kids. Yeah, those kids are gonna fuck. They could listen to this podcast one day and be like, Wow, that's my mom.

Your mom did some bad shit, really bad shit.

So this is this is interesting. The trial of Paul wouldn't start until May of nineteen ninety five, mainly due to the fact, Oh sorry, the.

Fact should have leaned away from the mic. If you get a burp.

I don't think I burped. It was just like a weird I don't know, a.

Weird what out of body experience.

Yeah, that's what it was.

Death.

He almost died, Okay, So mainly due to the fact that Paul had placed his lawyer Ken in a very difficult ethical situation. Oh, Paul had told Ken where to get the videotapes, or to where the videotapes were, and to get them.

Oh, so he's all like, get them and destroy them for me, get rid of the evidence.

Yeah, motherfucker, believing that by doing this they would never get into the hands of the prosecutors. However, Carla had made these videotapes known to the prosecutors, so eventually the pressure was too much and Ken withdrew from the case. And he still had the videotapes and he handed them over to Paul's next law John Rosen, who quickly turned them in good. So Carla's plea bargain was especially criticized by many Canadians because of this. The videotapes were withheld

I was waiting to hear something. He was yeah, good, good.

Like I mean Paul played him though, like he kind of played him because he was like wanting to defend his his what would you call that, what would you call their relafe? Yeah? I think but then if he turned those in, like he wouldn't definitely like the case would have been fucked basically, right.

But he's also a human. Yeah, he's now defending what he's guaranteed to know that someone who's fucking murdered and raped. He has the evidence to show that, and he's still going to defend that.

Yeah.

I'm at least glad that he's at least stepped back and passed the.

Tapes on he realized, I mean, it took him a way too long, but he realized.

He didn't do the right thing, but he didn't do the wrong thing. Yeah, you know what I mean.

Yeah, So, with the videotapes as critical pieces of evidence, Paul faced two counts of first agree murder, murder murder, two counts of aggravated sexual assault, two counts of forcible confinement, two counts of kidnapping, and one count of performing an indignity on a human body. And I'm not going to go into a lot of detail here. Yeah, please don't, well, like just what the case is.

I mean, Okay, I thought you were taking talk.

He's fucked we already know that with the videos and Carla testifying, the prosecutors had some very powerful evidence to convict Paul of the charges, and the defense would attack Carla's credibility with the goal of showing that she was not the victim she portrayed herself to be, but a willing participant, regardless of the degree of Carla's guilt or innocence. On September first, nineteen ninety five, Paul was convicted on all the charges against him regarding the kidnappings, rapes and

Was just wanting to mock you again. I was really waiting for that chance her again.

So rapes and murders of Leslie and Kristen. He also faced trials and the death of Tammy and the serial rapes of the rapes of Scarborough. Sentenced to life in prison without parole for at least twenty five years. He was designated a dangerous offender, making him very unlikely to ever be released.

Very unlikely.

It should be well unlikely, very likely he will still in there.

Good. He's fucking rotten there. He's getting sodomized by some like really big dude.

Well, I didn't even put that on there. Like he was always secluded because I think isn't it that people who rape, especially like rape children basically like they don't have a fun time in prison do that?

Oh, they generally end up beaten and killed.

Yeah, So he was always secluded, but there was odd times, like I think there was an attack on him when he was like coming back from the shower, or like a mob one time started trying to get at him. So it wasn't like rainbows in there for him good. Since being in prison, he has also admitted to even more sexual assaults of course, and there's a lengthly list

So just a couple days ago.

So this case like was just in the news. It took only one hour of deliberation, but the judge for his application was turned down. A fuck you, Paul, the judge turned his application down. As for Carla, she had to serve her full twelve years, which is good. She never did get like the parole after three years. I think because of stuff that came up with like the videos and stuff, they like realized they can probably fucked up with her. So they did make her stay the

Caribbean or Caribbean. It's like tomato tomato.

I don't know actually which one now.

Some people say one, some say the other. Like pirates of the Caribbean or Pirates.

Of the Caribbean, Caribbean Caribbean. I would probably say, yeah, and this is just an interesting tidbit too that might make you like, feo, Carla's better, but you know, the like psychopath checklist or the score you can get. Yeah, so Paul's were thirty five out of forty and Carla was five out of forty. Huh, I actually want to take it. What happened to my score? To high?

It'd be like, holy would be surprised.

What do you mean You wouldn't be surprised.

You're generally really good at tests. You'd get a good score.

I'd want to try to get a good score. So yeah, there you have it.

Well, those people are are trash. What's her name now, Leslie or something? Which one Carla's new name, oh.

Leanne Leanne. Yeah. So if there's a Leanne that you know living in southwestern Quebec, you maybe might want to ask her a couple questions.

Yeah, be like do you rape those people?

Yeah? I mean I wouldn't want her to be my neighbor. But then there was people that said that she was actually like a pretty good neighbor, like quiet, She's probably quiet as.

Fuck, probably keeps to herself as best as she can, I would imagine.

So you're like, I feel like your almost team Carla not being manipulated quite badly by Paul, aren't you.

Oh no, she was one hundredercent kuilty. She was definitely she did it on her own free will.

And you think she should have got more than twelve years?

Oh yeah, for sure. I think the only way Paul really manipulated her. I'm sure she was abused to some degree, but I think the only way that he really manipulated her in the way she was a victim is she just loved him and just did what. Yeah, like she feelings is what got her in it.

After being beaten and stuff. She stayed for some time like that last summer. Basically, yeah, she did divorce.

Him, well, even before any beatings or abuse came, Like when they were first getting together in stuff and he first brought up the whole prospect of like fucking raping people and stuff, and she's like, oh, that's cool.

I know, that's that's on cool, Like she could have ran for the hill.

Yeah, and that's on her because that's her feet. I understand she's getting like physically abused mentally abused later on, and that's some serious trap shit that it's really hard to get out of. That's on Paul. But shit where she's just like, oh that's cool. Nah, that's on you. You are a victim there more so well not that she's not a victim of abuse, she is abuse, but yeah, getting roped in is the love factor. The honeymoon stage is what roped her in.

And I mean I think more influ Like I learned so much and there's even things that I left out because I didn't want this to be like five hours long, but something that came back, Like Paul was good at charming and manipulating people even when he was in prison. At one point he almost got married to someone. Fuck like you might you could look up that article or whatever, and I don't think it actually happened. And this person

Well he's hopefully in he rot forever and hopefully Laura Leslie, what was her fucking name again, the new one. Yes, you don't remember it either.

No, because I don't care about her she is.

I'm terrible with names.

Will I was going to say Leanne was the only.

Reason I'm wanting to say her name multiple times is because I want to fucking out her.

Leanne bordialis b O R D E l A. I S.

There you go, her being out. I hope that she keeps getting found out, and I hope that she has to keep moving, and I hope that she has to keep hiding.

Yeah, but I also don't think that she's going to ever make like another stink.

She better not.

I would be surprised if she ever came up again.

She better fucking not. So anyway, that's that well done your first two parter.

I get myself in to. I think that's why I was putting this case all getting around. Thank you, Thank you. It's fine.

Well here, cheers for that two parter.

Cheers, and I can drink my white claw ye and make.

Sure you guys come back for the next episode and make sure.

You stay wicked.

I know