Last episode, we talked about part one of Leonard Lake and Charles ng. Today we continue that case with part two, So please check out part one and get ready for the rest of this case.
My name's Ben, I'm Nicole, and you're listening to Wicked and Grim, a true crime podcast.
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We just got wine. We've been wine all day, well not all. We're on bottle number two, Okay, I've.
Am freaking like, Oh no, I guess I've had two glasses of wine.
Yeah you have.
I haven't moved on to the white like you have, though.
Yeah, well, I'm halfway through the bottle of white. I guess apparently. Good God, it's been a good lubricant for the research on this case. I'm not gonna lie, all right, lubercint eh, It's yes, it's a lubricant. Huh of the emotions, you know.
That's one way to describe it. I am going to just say we are, well, Ben is drinking. I haven't got there.
Yet, have a wine glass right there.
But I was going to talk about the little straw or is this little straw?
I don't know shit, I think this.
Is Little Straw too. So Little Straw is in Kolonna. It's one of my favorite freakin' wineries. It's so damn good.
No, this isn't sponsored. Nicole just actually likes their wine.
I actually just I don't know. I like little, kind of smaller wineries and they're a little bit smaller. You're drinking Tapestry and it's really good.
A little bit sweet for me, but it is pretty good. I usually like a bit of a dryer wine.
But I guess it technically is in West Colonna. Yeah, West Colonna, the Okanagan.
So this is a true Crown podcast, not a wine podcast. We should probably stop talking wine. We're not wine connoisseurs, at least I'm not.
All I know is enjoy it touche.
All I know is if it goes down good and it helps me research a case, which it definitely did on this one, because oh god, it's a doozy. Do you remember what happened in this case?
To be brutally honest, I have no idea because since then I have shot two weddings, god knows what else. I've done lots of work and I barely remember.
So your recap I got you back. I got a good recap. We're going to go over it. But before we do the recap, we of course have to thank our patroots. So we had two amazing people sign up over on Patreon this week. We have Stacey Ray Daniels and Sophia Shinn. Thank you very much. We're going to be doing a lot on Patreon this week with getting some input and we're prepping for a live over there at the end of the month too, so very cool. Yeah. Yeah,
So let's dive into this. Are you ready because I'm sure many people are listening to part one and diving right into part two. Oh yeah, let's keep it short. Let's get into this.
Okay, we need to recap though.
Okay, so the recap in part one of the case of Leonard Lake and Charles Saying, we discussed several things and amongst them, we started with Charles and the shoplifting from a lumber store, and that lumber store was South City Lumber and Supply. Now, being a kleptomaniac, Charles couldn't resist the urge to try and steal a table vice that was valued at about seventy five dollars. Now, unfortunately
for him, he didn't get away with it. He was approached about the shoplifting at the car and took off running, while his friend Leonard Lake was left trying to talk with police and resolve the issue.
Okay.
Leonard though, was arrested when they found an illegally modified rifle in the car, and Leonard, however, had an ace up as sleeve for being arrested for just such an occasion.
Okay, it's coming back a little.
While being held for questioning, officers return to the room, yeah, for him to be found on the floor convulsing and was later pronounced.
Dead and he had left a note.
He did leave a note. Yes, Now, it was discovered that Leonard had sewn cyanide tablets into the hem of his clothes and took his own life. This was the beginning of the officers diving into a rabbit hole of these two men, and along the way they found several connections between them and missing individuals, and the evidence just keeps piling up. Officers performed a search of Leonard's cabin
in northern California with consent from his ex wife. They did not have a warrant, so it was a consent search, but when they found video equipment that belonged to a family who had been missing for the past eleven months. She immediately ended the consent search, kicking authorities off the property. And that's where we left off.
Shit, And there was like a back shed or something, right there was ominous but back shed that they were Well, it's.
Been described as many things. I'm going to continue calling it a shed, most likely in this I think I've described it a few different ways. But it's like a like a bunker, a shed, like another little cat, it's like a cinder block out building. Okay, so it's yeah, it's it's because he was a bit of like a they call it a prepper, which I touch on in here a bit, and he like prepared for things like survivalists and stuff like that. So we had this like bunker for that sort of stuff too.
So honestly, like not a terrible idea.
No, it's not, especially giving today's world and how the economy is going. Yeah, like man, anyway, that's a whole other topic.
Yeah, that is very much topic.
Trust me, I can go especially given the lubricants I've been consuming today in this wine, I can go on for a long time. Both that.
That's only I feel like it's a slight downfall of tiny home living ish because you're kind of like you can't really stalk up on food and stuff.
You can pick up and go at any time kind of so long as you have a vehicle to tow it. Yeah, but let's get onto this. You ready for part two?
Yeah? I am. It's not going to be good, Okay, I remember, I'm remembering things, that's all right.
So authorities were walking off the property and they eyed up that that outbuilding, the shed, the bunker, and they're wondering what was inside there was padlocked. They couldn't search anything else because the ex wife is like, hey, sorry, you got to get out of here now. Given the evidence that they had already obtained regarding Leonard and now discovering this stolen video equipment within the property if you remember that from last episode, because that's when you know they found this.
And they phoned it in and stuff, right, yeah, match.
The serial numbers everything. Given this connection with the video equipment, the police were able to obtain a search warrant and return back to the cabin only a few hours later.
Nice, yeah, right on.
This time, they didn't need permission from anyone. With a warrant in hand, they were able to search the property to the fullest extend. Okay, one of the first things they did was focus on the cinder block outbuilding that's shed.
They did like a spider sense about this shed head.
Well, I mean it's a little bit ominous. It's like, okay, what's in there? Right, So they didn't know what they would find inside, and they worked their magic getting the padlocks off because it was heavily locked. But once they managed to get their way in and they opened it, each investigator was holding their breath with the nerves of anticipation.
The inside didn't seem anything out of the ordinary at first. Leonard, as I mentioned, was a bit of a prepper, meaning someone who prepares for disasters, dire situations and of the world, etc. And everyone has their own thing that they're prepping for, so it prepping has different definitions within that. It could be food, it could be gas. You could be prepping they call it bug out bags, which is just a bag to get up and leave in the case of like a forest fire in our area, for example. So
it all depends on what you're quote prepping for. So with him. Though, the inside didn't have many things that was too out of the ordinary, outside of course a little bit of prepping stuff, but there was also tools and stuff that you would actually generally find in a shed like structure as well. However, the first thing that they actually spotted out of the ordinary were twenty one photos that were adorning the wall. Now, the photos were
of young women, some dressed some not. They didn't know who they were or who the pictures were taken from, like who took the pictures, but the investigators to them it seemed like it could possibly be a trophy wall.
Oh jeez, that's disgusting.
Yeah. They also found a journal inside this shed, a journal that was written by Leonard himself. Now, inside he talked about many different things, and he obsessedly talked about the book that he was really reading NonStop and basically held like a bible to him the collector remember that from last time, yeap. So he also had inserts in here where he talked about something called quote Project Moran, which was named after the woman in the book who
was captured. So Miranda was the woman in the book who the individual was like obsessing with and wanted to make her part of his butterfly collection.
Okay, yeah, so he named this his project Project Miranda, after Miranda from the book Oh Man. Okay, Now, I didn't allude a lot to a project Miranda really wrote.
It really entailed. So authorities did keep searching, and they searched not only of course, through the shed, but the cabin as well though, and they were also spreading their their search across the property, and I believe it was about a third of an acre at this cabin was on. Now, on this property they found two different cars, both belonging to missing persons. Holy shit, it seemed all too easy to make the assumptions that killings were taking place and
occurring at the hand of Leonard Lake. And if that was the case, it wouldn't be far fetched to think that bodies might be buried on this property as well.
Well. Honestly, when they opened the shed, I was thinking that they were either was they're going to find someone alive in there or bodies a body of sort or something. Yeah, so I was surprised that they that they didn't.
Well, cadaver dogs were brought onto the scene because of the assumption that, you know what, there could be bodies buried. There could be someone here that we don't know of, And so dogs are brought on the scene and they roamed, they sniffed the property, you know, doing their job. It's dogs, right, and they found several different sites where various fires had
been lit, which seemed to interest the dogs greatly. Now, one of the dogs in particular also found a bone, a bone that investigators immediately knew was not animal and identified as a human bone.
Holy shit, I mean not surprising.
Yeah, this was officially no longer an execution of a search warrant. Only three days later, after Leonard had actually committed suicide, the cabin property was officially a crime.
Yeah. And he knew that, he knew his time was here, hey, like, oh, he knew he was done.
Yeah, that's why he had that backup plan. Doublets.
That is just so interesting to just be living your life doing something so terrible that you have to just have this backup plan like this in case you get found.
I know, like that, just like fuck him for not even facing what he did, you know, Yeah, like holy shit, what a fucking coward.
Well yeah, actually yeah, that's yeah.
So large crews of investigators in all different fields of expertise, of course, came to the site to begin to process the property. They sectioned it all off. They did, like, you know, I don't know if it's like a grid pattern or what exactly, most likely to my assumption, but they sectioned it off and designated different areas for different teams to begin their work. Now in the cinderblock shed, they continued the investigation and it led them to uncover
some alarming things. They discovered a hidden door inside, not noticeable at first if you didn't know it was there. But after a while of searching and you know, due diligence, it was discovered the door was located behind some wall mounted shelves and once you kind of wiggled the shelves a bit, the door began to pull free with the shelves and it revealed a small room with a cot behind it.
Whoa, okay, I was like, there has to be more to this frickin shed. Holy shit.
And after further investigation on the hinges on this door as well, it seemed that they were buckling and bending a little bit, most likely from force from the inside.
No yeah, oh man, okay, well I just can only I can only imagine like the chilling feeling that you would just get when you discover like this shit, I.
Don't even know where my head would be, like I like trying to put myself in the shoes of an investigator, like discovering the door as one thing, but then the second you open it up and see firsthand what the fuck is back there, like holy.
Fuck, I don't I feel like you almost wouldn't even be react like I mean, you would react emotionally, but like you wouldn't because you're just there like trying to solve this, you know, and you almost, like I don't know, take your emotions out of the picture, and it's just like fax facts, right, because fair.
But I like for me, like my I don't know if you will, like anxiety takes form and like you know, when you get cold, you have the shivers. I have like a ball of that like shivers, but it's like so like so much smaller than shivers. It's like jitters. It's like a ball of it in my chest and I can just like trying to do my job, but I know that would be fucking going nuts.
Well yeah, I mean maybe you would have coping mechanisms of dealing with that, right, I guess or you do it. I don't know.
I'm pretty sure that's why we see like old school detectives, just like drunks, never sleeping like you know, just obsessing. And I guess that's probably why. So Within behind this door, though, there was another door that led to a small closet area. So this closet area seemed as if it were almost a makeshift makeshift bathroom with toilet paper hanging in the wall. But the thing that stood out the most within these two rooms was a single piece of paper that was
fixed to the wall. It was a list of rules, and the rules raid read as such. Number one, I must always be ready to service my master. I must be clean, brushed, and made up with my cell neat. Number two, I must never speak unless spoken to, unless in bed. I must never look my master in the eye, but must keep my eyes downcast. Number three, I must
never show my disrespect, either verbally or silent. I must never cross my arms or legs in front of my body, or clench my fists, and unless eating, must always keep my lips parted. Four I must be obedient completely and at all things I must obey immediately and without question or comment. Number five. I must always be quiet when locked in my cell. Number six. I must remember and
obey any additional rules told to me. I must understand that any disobedience, any pain, trouble, or annoyance caused by me to my master will be grounds for punishment.
Oh, I'm feeling my glass of wine here.
Yeah, rightfully, So see why I said it was good lubricant for research on this, Because holy.
Fat person is a nasty motherfucker. Yeah, that is like a I cannot even fathom someone being able to just come up with this list, like you are literally out of your mind. I'm sorry, but like you are, Yeah, and be to just be in that position and be having someone like doing, Oh my god, I just can't. I can't even like that. I just yeah, I'm about to say things.
I shouldn't if you want to say it, well.
I'm just like I don't even know, Like I would almost just want to die.
To be honest, I can't blame you in that situation. I really can't. Yeah, Like the list of demands, they're brutal to read. I like, don't get me wrong, it took me two takes to get through that, and it was clear that Leonard was holding these individuals hostage here, there's no doubt about that, right, But the questions are who for how long? And what was their fate in the end, because they're not in there now, all of this is still unclear.
Gosh, what a disgusting piece of shit.
Now, Unfortunately, further processing and forensic analysis of this room in this shed yielded no evidence as far as fingerprints or DNA really had been meticulously cleaned top two bottom.
That's like, really, like, how would you even do that? You think you'd miss something?
I know, But no, there's nothing.
Wow.
Now, the search of the cabin also because we're in the shed here right now, we're going back to the cabin itself. The cabin also revealed some disturbing new evidence. Among all the possessions, items, and clutter inside, the investigators
found a spew series of videotapes. Now, noting back to last episode, we discussed the bed in the cabin having holes in the posts floor seeming like they were used to tie or hold a person down there on the bed, and there was also a video camera that was set up pointed to the bed, So investigators were curious what they might actually find on these videotapes. Were they used in the camera, Were they potentially used in a crime, or they just you know, someone's harmless sex tape. Who knows.
We don't know, right, but the investigators are like, there could potentially be some damning evidence on this.
Oh, I think we know at this point.
Yeah, So they played them and none of them were prepared for what they found.
Oh no.
On these tapes, it showed women being held and bound. They were often sitting in a chair with Leonard explaining to them that they are going to be held and that they are going to do as he pleases. He isn't the only one, though, man quickly identified as Charles ng is also present on these tapes. Now, Charles is the man who ran in the very first episode from after those shoplifting charges and he took off.
And so they don't have him at this point, right.
They currently don't. He's on the run. This is only three days later after that he took off, he got away. They had Leonard, he gave them Charles his name, wrote that suicide letter to his ex wife, took the cyanide tablet. And now they're investigating the cabin and they found proof to tie Charles to this cabin as well. Now on these tapes. Wow, because before Charles was just a shot uplifting friend, right, you know, it.
Just doesn't even seem real. It doesn't even seem real that someone would be could like even do something like this to another humor.
Oh well, I haven't even really described what they're actually doing on these tapes.
Well, I know, but my mind is obviously going. But even just to capture someone, to sit them down and to tell them this is what they're doing now, and it's just like shit.
These women are being told to obey and do as they're told, things like they're going to cook, they're going to clean, and they're going to fuck when called upon. Wow, they do not wish to do these things, then they will swiftly be killed and that You can watch some of these tapes. There's not a whole lot of it out there, but there are some clips and it's fucking it.
Got this, I know, But I think that they were released probably to the public and like for case purposes or evidence purposes, I don't know, but this leads me to tie this case in a similar fashion to the toy box skin.
Yeah, that was I think I did the toy box killer. Yeah, I've never been the same since that day that I researched that. Holy shit.
Yeah. Now, continuing in these videos, their clothes that these women are being worn, that they're wearing, they're being cut off from their bodies with a knife. So the women are sitting there, they're tied, the cameras rolling on them. They're being told you will do these things or you will die. And then one of them walks up and begins cutting their clothes off with a knife, leaving them nude, or at least mostly nude, and at the mercy of
their captors. Now, one woman is seen asking for her baby repeatedly.
Oh my gosh, are you kidding me?
But Leonard tells her it's not her baby anymore and he has given it away.
Holy shit, so like a new mom. Yeah, that is a new level of evil.
It is well, I mean, the fucking psychological torture alone in this is unfathomable. So yeah. Now. Processing of the property outside the buildings, too, brought up more overwhelming amounts of concerning evidence. There were several burial sites found where possessions from missing individuals were stashed and buried, all of which were of course taken into evidence. So many of them were like, hey, you know, there's some like loose
kind of dirt here. It's obviously something's been buried. And there's things like you know, clothing or whatever being buried, possessions from like people's homes buried, whatever it was. There's a lot of shit being buried in several different sites of property, Like I can I can't even get into the amount of shit that was found. It's just it's overwhelming.
So like they went about hiding or going about hiding things, but not really too. I mean, I guess if they knew people were going to be on the property, like they aren't police or whatever, they'd end up finding this thing. So they hit it, but not very well really.
They hit it. Whereas if no one knows, no one's going to know. Yeah, but is for someone to stumble upon one little thing and the whole the gas up, which is exactly why Leonard had the backup of the Cyanide tablet, because all it takes is one fucking piece to fall out of place, yea, the whole thing comes crumbling down, and that one fucking thing was then being stopped in a shoplifting.
Event well, yeah, and he knew. I feel like you can only be a monster for so long. Like these people do generally end up getting caught. Like it's just it's not something that they get away with most people, I don't think, right like you do get caught eventually.
Yeah, well, these guys are definitely about to get caught. So on the property outside Buried there was also the discovery of two bodies that were wrapped in sleeping bags and found. They both seem to be gagged and handcuffed and were later identified as Lonnie Bond Junior and Robin Scott Stapley now Robin or sorry Lonnie was the boyfriend of Brenda O'Connor. Together they lived lived in a cabin nearby Leonard's cabin. They along with their two year old son,
had been missing for about two months. Oh man, now Robin Scott Stapeley who went by the name Scott, so I'll be referring to him as as Scott. Now Scott was also a neighbor of Leonards and a friend of his, and he had been missing for about two months as well. Now Scott's ID was found in Leonard's possession already. In fact, while he was still alive because when he first talked to the officers and he tried to identify himself and gave the ID that he did not match. That was
the ID he gave. Okay, I remember from first.
Yeah, wow, it's surprising that there they're like people that are like neighbors and close by and stuff.
Well, and that's the thing too, it's you have like you can you only have so many neighbors, right, Neighbors are missing here, neighbors are missing there. How did he not get questioned about this yet or any search come, like, you know.
Yeah, really that's like too close to home.
Yeah, So the whole grounds on this property were being combed for more remains. With the discovery of two bodies, Like, okay, we have two grave sites here, two people who are buried, two people who are killed and buried. There's got to be some more, Like what are the odds of it just being these two that we'veore stumbled across. There's got to be some more remains. Though no intact bodies were uncovered, the amount of remains that did come to the surface
was staggering. Now, as I already mentioned, there were burned sights in the property. It was obvious that remains were being disposed of in other ways other than just burials. Now, especially since cadaver dogs had also uncovered a single solo bone, they knew the chances of them finding more bone fragments.
It was basically a shot in the dark. But it's like, hit that wall with this dart in the dark, you're going to right, It's like, yes, it's just there's no doubt in their mind, and they were, of course right. So many people were scouring every inch of this property on their hands and knees during the investigation, raaking through the grass and dirts with their bare hands looking for
bone fragments. As a result, hundreds and I mean hundreds of bone fragments were discovered in various sizes, from the size of a nickel or dime to that of like a chicken bone or even a little bit bigger. And it all added up to over ten pounds of bone fragments that were collected.
Wow.
Hey, they believed would just have discovered around five different victims, but estimates and how many there actually were on the property ran as high as a potential count of twenty to twenty five.
Oh man, okay, I knew it was going to be high, but that's high.
Yeah, it is that just.
Like the way you described that too. Just like so, I mean, I know it's like done an organized fashion and stuff, but just like so frantic, right, like just searching for whatever pieces and bones and stuff that you can find, Like, oh.
My, well, that's what they're doing. And I'm pretty sure in something like this, like they're quite literally doing like an excavation, right, Like it's think like Jurassic Park, they do a grid fashion and it's like here's your grid like search, and I'm pretty sure that's exactly what they were doing because they were they were going through it with their hands.
Yeah. So and you feel like there could even be things deeper or something too or write.
Oh very possible. I mean, how can you fully excavate like a third of an acre to like you don't know how deep and where what?
I don't even know if you can really.
No, And even if you do, it's going to take so long unless you're using equipment, which is just going to ruin the site and you're not going to find anything anyways. Right, you have to do it by hand, you have to do it carefully, you have to do it slowly. Now investigators knew that they had to find Charles. At this point, he was no longer just a shoplifter.
There was video proof that tied him to the disappearance of several individuals, and he was quickly put at the top of the I'm sorry, I put on the top ten FBI's most wanted list. Now. Thankfully because of this, there was quite a bit of news and media coverage on the case, specifically around his name of course, right, but there was a lot spreading both nationwide and worldwide, and authorities were able to rely in the public's help in locating him. Soon, a witness reported seeing Charles get
on a bus and headed for Toronto, Canada. Now, as I mentioned in last one, he did have a citizenship in Canada, which made it very easy for him to flee the country.
Right. I was just like, go away, we don't want you here.
So authorities were able to learn that Charles had a sister who lived in Toronto, Okay, and they believe that, of course he's probably going to head there seek some refuge with his family hide out, right, But after watching outside her house for several days and nights, it was clear that he did not intend heading there because he never showed up.
Okay, well, yeah, I don't get her involved in this, Shita.
So after trying to find him, tracking him down, the trail went cold and it left investigators wondering where he went. But at the same time, they knew it was only a matter of time until he resurfaced.
Mm hmm. Well yeah, when you're at the point where you have this many people looking for you, you know it's going to happen exactly.
Like, you can't stay hidden forever, and the only way to do so is like you're going to like a third world country or something like that. And like if you're on FBI's most wanted list right now, like good luck flying or you know, totally now. Approximately one month later, oh that long one month?
Okay, well, I don't even know what's in one month. I'm assuming he's found, but geez, that's a long time.
That's a long time, you think.
Yeah, I thought he would have been found like a couple of days.
Okay, Well it was one month later in Calgary, Alberta. Oh wow, he's close a well close to us.
Yeah, that's what I mean.
Yeah, you need a point of reference for anyone listening out there used to wear Edmonton.
Yeah, close to where we live. We don't live in Edmonton, but like the province next to this, Alberta.
Yeah, we're about an eight nine hour drive away from Calgary, Alberta. But anyways, in Calgary. About a month later, a young boy was riding his bike through a park. He was playing and enjoying the great outdoors like any kid in the eighties would right now, As he explored the area, he came across a tent shelter set up in a forested section of the park, and there amongst it, the boy spotted a man. Now he recognized this man from wanted posters that he had seen.
Whoa what an observant little boy, it was Charles Ing. Huh Yeah, how old was this kid? Sorry? Ten or so?
I don't know exactly. He was just a young boy.
Oh okay, for some reason I was ink in ten, but like, gosh, he could have.
Been ten, he could have been thirteen. I'm not a certain age like a.
Kid would even you know know.
Yeah, but after seeing this guy and recognizing him, the boy quickly hopped back on his bike and took and he reported what he seen to officers.
Yeah, get the fuck out of there, man, No kidding, right.
So officers then had the boy lead him back to where he spotted Charles, and so he did. But by the time they arrived back in the park and he showed them where this little tent setup was, Charles was gone. He had bandoned his setup and fled. Unfortunately, he slipped through their fingers.
Oh my gosh. Okay, still hey, they were that damn close.
But as I mentioned earlier, in this case, Charles was a kleptomaniac, meaning he could not help but steal, and his downfall came when he attempted to shoplift once again. It was the exact same day that that young boy had spotted him. Charles entered the department store in Calgary, Alberta. On July sixth, nineteen eighty five, Charles was caught stealing a can of salmon and some few other items, reportedly from a Hudson Bay store in Calgary.
He needed supplies and food, I'm sure exactly.
A security guard confronted him about what he was stealing, and Charles didn't like this, right of course, he tried to do as he did before, tried to run, but the guards stopped him, and during this confrontation, Charles pulled out a gun in an attempt to gain his freedom and the upper hand. The guard, though, wasn't gonna let
this happen. Wow, Yeah, he didn't let him get away, and in the struggle, Charles managed to shoot the guard in the hand, but despite the injury, the guards still continued to put up a fight and managed to subdue Charles with the help of other store employees and bystanders on scene until police arrived.
That is just like a one of a kind security guard, like kid, badass of the day, Like really just went above and beyond there.
Right shot in the hand and he's like you motherfucker.
Well yeah, because I feel like i'd be like, oh my gosh, mynd and he's just like, yeah, go time you.
Get done fucked up now boy. So yeah, badass of the day right there to that security No kidding now. Once Calgary police arrived at the scene, they arrested Charles, who provided a false name, of course, but the authority soon realized who he actually was, so he was now held in custody in Canada. But before he was sent to the US to face a courtroom, he first had to serve time in Canadian jail for shoplifting and also assault charges, which would eventually us be four and a
half years that he would be imprisoned in Canada. Okay, now before you was extradited to the US. This time, this four and a half years allowed prosecutors to build an intense case against Charles. They meticulously scoured their evidence and reports. Talk about the amount of evidence that there were.
It was ridiculous at one point the I'll talk later, when the case had actually had to move from a court house to different court house and they had to actually hire like a like a semi truck to like move all the files and really like it was in fucking tense.
Huh. So I was almost half thinking too that he would have committed suicide as well. So it's a bit surprising that he is like about facing all this stuff.
No, he's spineless in a completely different way. And trust me, we'll touch on it. Okay, Yeah, No, Leonard is spineless in the fact that he doesn't want to face it. But Charles is spineless.
Yeah, Okay.
So the prosecutor prosecution team scoured the evidence, they built the team, they readied themselves for the day that Charles would be extradited back to the US and beyond US US soil. But four and a half years is a long time, and Charles did the same. He educated himself on everything he could do to evade the legal justice system. Now there is a little bit going on. I'm not going to dive into the issues on being extradited from
Canada to USA because Canada actually held them. They didn't want to give him up because certain certain charges and certain what results the conviction and stuff. But long story short, both sides were ready for a war in this courtroom when he was finally extradited and a series of intense legal battles was about to commence, resulting in one of the most extensive and prolonged criminal proceedings in Californian history.
That just makes me angry right there, though, because it's just such a waste of money.
And you'll see why Charles is fucking cowardly and spineless in his own way, because he played dirty and he did whatever he could to delay his trial. Of course, Now why though, is fairly important, as I was just mentioning earlier with the extradition process, is he Charles facing these charges? It meant that if convicted, he would be given the death sentence. Okay, those were because of the charges were so much. Yeah, that was going to be
the conviction. It was no doubt about it, which is why Canada was hesitant to give them back to the United States because there was a law prohibiting it unless the crime exceeded a certain amounts. There were some legal stuff going on back and forth, but it was like, Okay, yeah he did exceed it, so go for it sort of Thingeah. So, yeah, he played dirty because he knew
he was facing the death sentence. So delaying the trial could literally mean life or death for this man, right, so he did everything in his power to drag it the fuck on. He employed a variety of tactics, but one of his primary strategies was to frequently change his legal counsel just as the trial was about to occur.
Seriously, he would.
Fire his attorneys and then he'd have to get new ones, and then the new attorneys would have to learn the case, and as I mentioned, there was like truckloads of case files, so it'd be up to two two and a half years that they would have to prepare themselves for the new trial again.
WHOA seriously and.
Simply firing his attorneys, he would buy himself two to two and a half years of life.
Yes, holy free, free.
And he did this multiple times. He cycled through multiple attorneys and lots of times he's like, yeah, they're not representing me well enough, so I need to get rid of them.
You know. Okay, that doesn't make that's not fair though, because I could see maybe once, but if that happens again, it's like, no, well it's not allowed.
It happened a few times.
That's not okay.
Yeah, and yeah, like I said, they had to develop new strategy, familiarizers themselves with the case before they're ready to go again. Now, another tactic he used to delay his tryout was filing an extensive number of legal motions. His defense team submitted numerous pre trial motions, including requests to suppress evidence, challenges to the admissibility of certain pieces
of evidence, and motions for the change of venue. So one of the things of change of venue, because I said, I had to change venue and load up and like freaking trucks, right, So he would say, like, you know, many people, because of the media coverage, this is a bias jury. So we need to go somewhere else, which again worked and delayed the trial.
Wow, this is mind blowing. I'm actually like, like I don't know if I'm allowed to say this, but a little bit like surprise for his will to live, I know, because like he no matter what, like he is going to just be spending the rest of his life in jail, right, I know. And it's so different than like his partner and crime there.
Yeah, so I know he was not facing Both of them did not want to face the justice that would come down on them. In their own way, yeah, they did not want to face the consequences of their actions. No, all plead opposite ways, but in the they're doing the same thing. Now. Each of these motions required court hearings,
legal arguments, significance along the process of the case. Like these combined efforts by Charles to manipulate the legal system contributed, sorry, contributed to an extraordinary length of time it took to bring this case trial and ultimately to verdict. So finally, though, enough was enough and a judge wasn't letting him get
new attorneys or anything anymore. Just as you mentioned, the trial had to begin and in October of nineteen ninety eight in Orange County, California, thirty eighteen, let me say it again, thirteen years after his initial arrest, Charles was finally or sitting in the court facing justice. Thirteen years he managed to delay it.
Oh man, I can't, I can't even that is just now.
During the trial, the prosecution presented an overwhelming amount of evidence against him, including the chilling videotapes that showed him actively participating in the torture and abuse of the victims. These tapes were crucial in demonstrating his direct involvement in these crimes. Now they told of how he and Leonard would capture people and of course families as well. They would kill the men and the children, but leave the women alive to use them in the dubbed Project Miranda.
They abused, raped, tortured, and eventually killed each and every one of them, humiliating them until they had their fill, their sick fill of fun, only to kill them and dispose of them on the cabin property. His defense, of course, shifted the blame onto Leonard Lake, saying that Charles was a follower who had been manipulated and dominated by Leonard, arguing that he had participated in the crimes only under
the influence of coercion. They painted Leonard as the mastermind behind the gruesome Axe, which I mean, he very well seemed to be by all accounts if you ask me. In my opinion, Leonard seemed to be the one who put this all together. It's his property. He built this cabin, he had this project. Miranda was obsessed with book. Sure, he might be the mastermind.
But this is too bad to to care really who the mastermind was.
No, it doesn't matter. He's still involved.
Yeah, to be involved in something this brutal is yeah. Yeah.
So.
They also suggested that Charles was merely an unwilling participant caught up in Leonard's horrific schemes. Right now. The prosecution, however, effectively countered these claims by pointing to the evidence, particularly the video proof that showed Charles not only participated willingly, but also took sadistic pleasure from the acts he committed on tape.
Oh yeah, it's very clear this guy is also a ginormous piece of shit.
Oh he is.
Yeah. So.
Luckily, the jury was not swayed by the defense arguments at all, and they rejected the attempt to minimize his responsibility by pinning the Blaine solely on Leonard. That was not the case. It's not just Leonard. You two are at fault and as a result, on February twenty fourth, nineteen ninety nine, Charles NG was convicted of eleven counts of murder as well as charges of kidnapping, conspiracy, and burglary. Charles NG was sentenced to death in March of nineteen
ninety nine. Since his conviction, Charles has done everything he can still to appeal that conviction.
Oh my gosh, has this person not wasted enough time and money? I am getting just pissed sitting here listening to this.
Thankfully, none of his appeals have succeeded. As far as I'm aware, Charles NG is still alive. He remains on death row in San Quentin State Prison in California.
Huh. You know this is very interesting because also one of our plans is very upset about this too, because we have a vine that's like this whole time, been like looking like it's alive as it's trying to like vine onto something else. It's quite creepy. Actually, I've been watching and this is I've been getting upset.
It's just feeding off the emotions.
I don't know, but it's creeping me out, and this whole case is creeping me out. And damn well that pretty well is the case. Okay, Well, I do have a question, and this is me really I should in all this, but like places in the States still do actively do the death penalty.
I mean, I don't know if they still convict of the death penalty, but I mean, if someone has the sentence, I think they can they can still follow it out. I would have to do the research on that, which I haven't, so I can't speak.
Yeah, I know, because I feel like at this point he's probably he's probably going to just die of like natural causes I guess.
Most likely of old age or whatever it is.
Yeah, yeah, that's what I meant, Like, yeah, well.
The last thing to do on this case, because that is that's the case, But the last thing to do. Here is the confirmed list of victims of Leonard Lake and Charles ng and the confirmed list is as follows. The Ubbs family who met Leonard, threw an ad to rent out their video equipment, and never was seen from again.
Seriously, so that is.
Harvey Dubbs twenty nine years old, Deborah Dubbs thirty three years old and their son Sean Dubbs, who was one year old.
Wow, just to rent out their equipment.
Eh. Yeah. There was the Bond and O'Connor family who were neighbors of Leonard Lake. There was Lonnie Bond Junior, who was twenty seven years old, Brenda O'Connor who was nineteen years old, and their son, Lonnie Bond the Third, who was two years old. There was the couple Michael Carroll who was twenty three years old and a friend of Charles Ing and his girlfriend Kathleen Allen, who was eighteen years old. There was Paul Kostner who was thirty
nine years old who was selling his car. Oh no, Robin Scott Stapley twenty six years old who was a friend and neighbor of Leonard Lake. Randy Johnson thirty four years old who was a former co worker of Charles Ing, Donald Lake thirty two years old. Who is who is Leonard Lake's younger brother, Clifford Pertineu who is twenty four years old, who's a former coworker of Charles Ng.
Okay, sorry, did you see one of these is a brother related?
Yeah? Like Leonard Lake's younger brother Donald Lake.
Holy shit. Okay, yep, so that's a list. That's a list, huh that we know of that I almost like guarantee you there's more.
Yeah. Now, luckily, some of those photos of the twenty one individuals that was found, those women who were found inside the cabin, some of them have been identified and are safe and alive thankfully.
Holy shit, no kidding.
I don't know the names of who. I just I was watching a documentary that was actually a good resource for my case, so thank you. Shout out to that documentary. But it's they talked about how yes, some of the women were identified and they were found safe, though I don't know how many, and I don't know who, huh.
And they didn't they just like didn't discriminate too. It was just like kids whatever, Like they just didn't give a fuck who they were killing.
Yep. But when they had a woman, they held them and they did what they wanted.
And then and they did so they did what they wanted with this this lady, thinking that they would probably like let her go right Oh no, well that was the threat though, like you do what you want or you let us do what you want, we want, or you get killed. So then she would let them do that, but then she'd get killed anyway.
As I don't know some of the video that I watched, the ultimatum was, we will treat you as nicely as we can within the threshold of being a prisoner, or you die.
Oh man, Okay, that.
Was the ultimatum, and I think I might have quoted them actually pretty pretty close on that. Within the threshold of being a prisoner, I think is exactly how they put it. Geez or yeah, death.
Kind of sick bastard you have to be to do this to somebody.
Well, and even worse too. Leonard had plans to expand his bunker and everything he wanted to do, like an underground system. Because there is a video that I watched of him. I think it's about fifteen minutes long, just like a vlog of him kind of talking, and he talks about how he wants to expand this and stuff and have this underground like network and just nasty. Yeah.
I wonder if his ex knew.
I kind of feel like, oh, she fucking knew.
You think she did?
She knew? Why would she kick them off? After the videotapes Wow.
She was like, shit's getting real here and I don't really know what the fuck's going on, So like, you guys need to leave.
Why would he have written that fucking letter.
I can't even remember what the hell of letter had said.
I got to go back to my other document here and pull.
I don't know if she would have known to this extent.
Oh, she fucking knew you. I know she knew. Well, I mean, I don't know, but like I cannot see her not knowing. It doesn't make sense to me that she would not fucking know.
Huh, I don't know.
Okay. So the suicide note or the letter he wrote to her, goes as quote, Dear Lynn, I love you, I forgive you. Freedom is better all sorry, freedom is better than all else. I leave it up to you to tell the law about the horrors of this house. She fucking knew?
Oh wow, okay, huh. I mean anyone that I feel like knew anything about any of this shit is slightly guilty here.
Oh no kidding, I agree, But it's.
Like, how could you know something? Like there's just I don't care, like who the fuck that you are? Like you could be, like you could be you my best friend, I would if I knew something this extent, I don't think I could physically keep that in and like let that be happening. There's just no way. I don't think. I don't care who the fuck is Huh, I don't know.
But yeah, she was not charged or convicted.
Wow, no, interesting, No, she.
Got away she I mean, there's no no evidence that she did anything.
But what did he have to forgive her for?
Hey, I don't know, leaving him? Maybe I don't know. It could be some mundane, stupid thing like that, or maybe they were just recently arguing over who fucking ate the last twinkie? And he's like, I forgive you it, socin, who knows, I.
Would never forgive you for that. I actually haven't end a twinkie and I can't even remember the last I made a twinkie.
That's probably a good thing.
But anyway, my blood is just like boiling, and now we have to go to bed. Yeah, it's good luck to us.
That's one way to end a night.
Hey, yeah, no kidding, I gotta.
I'm gonna polish off this bottle of wine before bed, because god dang, I need it.
Hmmm. I mean sometimes I sometimes think this keeps you up at night? How can we end podcast on like a more fun note? But fuck, there's just no way.
Man, No, how do you and like, how do you end a true crime pod podcast on a positive note?
Me?
I can't know, well because I almost am like gosh, like good luck to all you out there, like it's just like scary what kind of people are here? And also I think I'm keeping my vehicle for life because I don't know if I'm going to be able to sell a used vehicle ever. Again, you can't.
Wash your car, you can't sell your car.
Like, I'm just like literally me, when I'm eighty years old, I'm going to be living in a fucking bubble. Probably hopefully, we can only hope.
Really, yeah, I'd be down for that, You and me in a bubble with huskies and chickens and a cat.
Oh, that sounds lovely. Would have to also have like a vegetable garden and stuff for like food and stuff.
Right, we got to start in apiary too, so we can make need.
Oh man, yes, sounds like the life. We're gonna be like little hermits.
Man, Oh, I'm.
Still releasing podcasts or.
No, probably we're gonna be fun eighty years old, little hermits in the bush and just talking about some fucking horrific shit that people are doing out there in the world.
Yeah. Well, we always at the end of this podcast, we always just go off here. But because we were talking the other day, I was like, well, how long can you be like a wedding photographer? Like how old can you be? Kind of thing? And then we were talking how old can you be like a true crime podcaster and stuff, and like physically probably quite some time. Your voice would probably change a bit, but not like,
not until you're probably like your seventies. I'm thinking, yeah, but then you were almost like that, it's probably really cool. People might really like that.
I mean picture just old Ben and Nicole just sipping some wine, sipping some drinks and just talking about true crime. I think that'd be awesome.
Yeah, it might be.
My name's Ben and you're listening to wickeding Grim true crime podcast.
Like, well, I feel like too, say, when we're eighty, shit's probably gonna be way worse in the world, to Matt, and then we'll be like back in our day, they did they only did this, you know, like, gosh, that is that's a dark thought right there.
Yeah, we thought John Wayne Casey was bad.
Now this bullshit, Oh Lord help us.
Yeah, we're really going off today apparently, and we're gonna end this here. We're gonna stop rambling. We appreciate you guys listening, especially if you got through all this this at the end. We hopefully you guys enjoy this though, Like I do want to take a quick moment to note these these rants at the end, like I enjoy just sitting here and yapping with you about this case.
Hopefully you guys enjoy it too, because it's almost it is kind of like the way the way we unravel after it all, we vent a bit, we get some more laughs in, and it's it's that unravel moment.
So maybe we do kind of end it sometimes in a positive way, and we do. Right, people are now picturing us in our eighties talking about you know, yeah, that's actually kind of a nice thought.
Yeah, so hopefully you guys like it. We really enjoyed doing this, so thank you for being here, Thank you for supporting our show. We are an indie podcast. It's us who do everything. We don't have any overarching person overseeing it. It's us. I was gonna say it's just us, but Nicle gave me crap last time.
For and some people agreed. I'm very behind on the Spotify comments, and some people agree when you say just like it's not always like a good.
Thing, well it's not always a good thing. But I'm not saying in a negative context.
Though, I know, but we're going to change that language, I think a bit.
Well, okay, put it in this way. I'm not saying it's just us. I'm saying it's just us. There's no one else. It's us. To get that, but let's just not catch Okay, Well, it's Nicole and I only doing this. We've got this. There's no one else, and you guys are here supporting us, and because of that, we appreciate it. So thank you very much. If you'd like, don't forget to follow all the good.
Stuff, you know, Yeah, you know, I like how you're talking to the camera that's not on. But anyway, until Friday, Until Friday, stay wicked.