Lady of the Dunes

The Golden Age of serial murders was a span of forty years when murder ran rampant through the United States of America with the likes of prolific killers and cold case murders. Today we cover a case known as the Lady of the Dunes, which is a cold case from the Golden Age in nineteen seventy four, which gained some new life in twenty twenty two when her identity was finally uncovered. My name's Ben and.

I'm Nicole, and you're listening to Wicked and.

Grim, a true crime podcast. The following podcasts and material intended for a mature audience. Listener discretion is advised. We're recording in the morning this time instead of late at night. How's it going. Good morning.

Yeah, so there's no beer opening or anything.

I guess no, I don't even have coffee this morning, so it's just tea.

We're tea slurping.

Yeah. I'm out of coffee officially ran out yesterday. Had a little bit of a panic attack. And I mean the tea's actually doing the job, Okay.

I was like, what a terrible day.

Well, I mean I don't drink the coffee for the caffeine. I drink it for that warm hug feeling in the morning, and then the tea is it's sufficing. I don't think it would day after day, but it is. It is definitely sufficing. It can fill that voice.

It's doing the trick for the day. Hey, well, I'm going out later, so I'll get you some more coffee.

Appreciate that. Thank you. That's what marriage is about you out of coffee. I got your back.

Yeah. Well, it's also for myself too, right, what what because lots of times they say like coffee wakes you up and makes you in a better mood and stuff. So I'm doing it for myself too. Oh.

I thought you meant like the part of marriage was for you specifically. I was like, okay, yeah, and generally people get something out of marriage. I would think there'd be something for you in there.

I would think so too. Yeah. Wow, Holy I love what you took that so differently.

Well, I'm a little bit slow this morning. It's freaking daylight savings time, like two days ago or one day. Yeah, when was it Saturday? Saturday? Well, technically Sunday.

Sunday morning or early Sunday morning. Yeah, isn't it like two.

In the morning in the morning. Yeah, I hate daylight savings time. It's the most It's the dumbest thing in the world. In my opinion. I think it's absurd.

I mean, it's probably not necessary.

Really, I don't think it is.

They talk all like every year. I feel like there's a discussion about, you know, not having it anymore, but well there.

Are places that don't have it across Canada and the States even.

Yeah, well I don't know. I just it is what it is. I feel like I don't even worry about because I can't change it.

Right, touche too shape. I just think it's absurd. It's like, oh, you don't have enough light at this portion of the day, so we're going to give you light at that portion of the day. But in order to do so, we're going to take it away from this part of the day because we can't just extend it.

Well yeah, and especially if you have kids and stuff like, it messes it up.

It does. It's like, just schedules and let people have their natural cycle. Come on.

Now. Yeah, I don't know.

That's my view of it.

I think that's a pretty common view.

I think so too. Anyways, we got to say thank some patrons who support the show. So this week we had a few awesome people sign up and I'm probably going to butcher their names, but I am going to try my best. So here we go. Thank you so much to Laurie de Laurentis, Jessica Smith, Paul Montoya, and Daniel Supernat. So thank you very much to all of you for signing up on Patreon, supporting the show and being here and listening and just being freaking on Wicked.

Yeah, no kidding, thank you so freaking much, freaking much freaking and us speaking of Patreon, this case comes from Patreon today. It does. Yeah, they get a lot to say, Actually they do in cases that we end up choosing.

So we did ah give us some recommendations on the last Patreon case, and so they put out a bunch of recommendations and we took like, I think it was the top four that kind of peaked our interest. And then we did a poll voting on Patreon and the top one was the Patreon episode exclusive, the exclusive one for the month that we did. But this one was number two in that voting poll and it kind of piqued my interest. So that's what we're doing today.

We're doing it too.

I didn't even tell the patrons that this this was going to be the case until, like, I don't know, I think it was like last night when.

We were going to bed something. Yeah.

Yeah, So they only knew that this was going to be their recommendation on this case just slightly before you guys.

Yeah, but they seemed so stoked.

Were stoked. I'm stoked on it too.

Well. It sounds very interesting. I mean your intro. I was just like, oh, wow.

Well it is. It's a cold case from back in the seventies that there was literally no trail. And I'm gonna be honest with you right now, this case there's not a whole lot of information because the trail was just so cold for so long. Okay, So yeah, that's all it is. So yeah, we're going to dive into this cold case and how it actually got it. Its a breath of life metaphorically speaking in twenty twenty two. Okay, okay, okay. So on July twenty sixth, nineteen seventy four, a little

Right yeah, And the dog's just like what yeah.

No matter how much you call its name, it, she just goes and goes and goes, probably chasing a squirrel or something. But that's exactly a situation for this little girl. She's going after her dog who is not listening to her whatsoever and just taken off. So the only thing is something was different. Soon this little girl would find her dog would stop and allow her to catch up. The dog was now distracted intensely sniffing, and when the

Oh oh no, hey A, I mean, finding a body is horrible, but a little twelve year old girl finding a body, I know, I don't love that.

We Actually, we just had a case a couple of cases ago, the case with Bussy McLean who murdered his mother, and there were parts strewn about the trash and the dog found those parts as well. Yeah, so we had a case just like this not long ago. And you said that was like a fear of yours.

Yeah, well, I mean just running across a body. But I just feel like, I mean, it would be traumatic no matter what age you are, but a twelve year old, I mean, I guess the trauma would last with you a little bit longer.

Well, I think adults are generally speaking more adapt to handle trauma. Not that they are necessarily able to deal with the better, but we're more adapt to I think about it. You know, we're not It couldn't impact us as hard. Maybe I don't know what I'm saying.

Well, I mean also, a twelve year old may not even I mean, they would know what death is, but they may not, you know, know what it is to the extent that like an adult would right.

Or understand why someone could do that, you know, maybe not really fully understand murder. Death. I could probably understand a twelve year old understanding that murder might be a bit of a different concept.

And it's too young of an age to know that the world shit, yeah right, it's really the ultimate thing.

Yeah. Well, authorities though regardless of this, little girl were notified immediately and they quickly began their investigation at the scene. Now, the body that was found was that of a woman who is estimated to be between the ages of twenty five and forty years old. There were some reports at saying that she could be even as young as twenty and upwards of even forty five years old, but generally speaking, the consensus was between twenty five and forty.

That's quite arranged.

It is quite a range. And you'll understand why here in a moment, because her body was giving off a very horrible odor as investigators did their work, because she was very badly decomposed.

Yeah, okay, that's kind of what I figured.

Yeah, so there was a very apparently significant insect activity on her body. Nice, which this actually helps give a timeline to her death as they can actually estimate based off the type of insects present at the scene and on the remains, and not only that, but how far along their life cycles is. So they're like, Okay, if this insect is here and it's in this stage of life, then we can estimate that it's the body's been here for Okay, this amount of time.

Yeah, I knew that they would use the insects to their advantage, but you forget about that kind of thing.

I think I learned that one in like CSI way back in the day. Yeah, yeah, back when we were probably like, I don't know, twenty one years old watching CSI on our weekends. Good times. In this case, though, it was estimated that she would have been deceased for approximately two weeks. Okay, yeah, so she's been in this spot decomposing for the last two weeks. The woman had long red hair that was pulled back into a ponytail. Under her head was a pair of Wrangler jeans and

You know, Oh, it's so terrible because it just like it almost just sounds like that you're describing this beautiful woman and she's just like laying peacefully on this blanket, and then you go deeper and like her head's almost decapitated. Like it's just, oh yeah, it's a good way to start the day listening to this.

Well, I mean that whole like she's laying peacefully on the blanket sort of thing that actually plays a rather big role in this. And like, I mean, honestly, everything we've talked about so far is actually very big if you really break it down, like, for example, the post mortem thing and the fact that it was like no defensive wounds, it's a very big piece of evidence, especially when coupled with the idea that the attacker may have been laying right next to her.

Yeah, so it's almost it's of someone that she probably knew, you know, maybe had a relationship with.

Exactly how There was reportedly some sort of impression in the ground, which also depending on how you look at it, but most likely how they were looking at it. The angle of the blow on her head suggested that the person was laying next to hers all which began raising questions was she sleeping at the time, and more importantly, did she know her attacker attacker because she probably was sleeping next to her attacker on the ground in this position when they struck.

Oh gosh, Okay, that's terrible, it is, I mean, but what the heck? They say, Well, there's a reason why the main suspect is always the significant other, the partner. Yeah.

Yeah, it's usually someone in the most immediate family. Like a child goes missing, it's you know, the parents, right, or you know, parents go missing, it's the children, or a wife it's the husband, the husband, it's the wife. It's immediate family. Yeah, and it's usually nine times out of time, I think pretty spot on an estimate. Yeah. Yeah. Anyways, now, it was the most likely scenario that she did know the attacker and that she was asleep when the assault

Then took the opportunity.

Yep. One of the biggest details about the remains that were found, however, I've yet to mention both her hands and several of her teeth had been removed and were missing. She had no hands on her body, they were cut and multiple teeth were pulled from her mouth.

Oh okay.

It appeared as if whoever had committed this horrific crime did not want the authorities to identify the remains that they had just found, taking away dental impressions and fingerprints alike.

Okay, do you want to know something ridiculous? Is apparently I haven't woken up whatsoever, because I didn't even think yeah.

I was actually kind of waiting for you to chime in and say it, but you didn't. So I just got to read my script and I was like, okay, oh that.

Is the worst. I was like, oh, that's so weird. In my head, and then oh, yeah.

That's why taking away her identity.

Yeah that makes sense, yep.

Which is exactly why this case was cold for.

So long, because then no idea who the fuck she was?

You bet you now. An autopsy revealed both the cause of death and the sexual assault that took place post mortem, but it also revealed her last meal, a burger and fries, which could potentially be a useful piece of information when

That's so bizarre.

Yeah, and now brought up the possibility that her body may have been dumped here after being killed somewhere else. Now, we do know many of these things happened post mortem, right, so it is a possibility she was killed somewhere else, dumped here the post mortem things occurred in this spot and then the killer left.

Okay, yeah, that could very well be.

Yeah, and if that is the case, it only complicates the matter further because now they may not have a crime scene even Yeah.

Well, I mean, gosh, I feel like solving a murder is hard enough, and then this just makes it tenfold.

Oh and this person whoever committed this is doing all this on purpose to ensure that they don't get caught.

They had this plan, which is just so disgusting.

Now. She was buried three months later in October of nineteen seventy four, after the case went cold. She was buried as a Jane Doe in Saint Peter's Cemetery near the center of town. Her grave held a small stone headstone with the words that read quote unidentified female body found Race Point Dunes, July twenty sixth, nineteen seventy four.

Oh, I hate that I know.

It's something that I don't think anyone should have on their their headstone, but in the very least, at least you do have a final resting place.

Well, yeah, it's nice that they do give them that. But oh yeah, I mean someone would have had to loved her and knew.

Her, oh for sure. It's just who and where are they? And where did she come from? That's the only question.

Yeah, because I guess technically she could even be from another area of like the country. She could she could be.

From another country. Yeah, we have no clue.

Yeah.

Now, despite the short time period that had passed at this point, police did not give up easily. They poured over thousands of missing persons cases and of course the already mentioned vehicles, the information on what had gone through the area in the time for death, and no matter what they did, it seemed like they just could not get any leads, no matches, know nothing. There was nothing

Well, it sounds like they're not giving up though, and I do not really love.

That they are not giving up, and it is awesome. Though the case was cold, it didn't mean investigators even forgot about her. A few years later had passed by, and still they wanted to find who she was. They were certain that if they could find her identity, they could find who killed her. In nineteen seventy nine, they took the skull of the Jane Doe, which was not buried with her body, because in hopes that it would you know, help identifying her, okay, and they did a

I'm actually shocked that they're just I mean, I know that that happens, Like you know, they half close the case for lack of evidence, but it's still ongoing. But it just seems like they're really you know, yeah, it affected them and they want this solved. I like that.

Oh, they definitely do. And I don't think they were they ever closed this case. It was just left open as a cold case. Okay when they when they close the case, I'm pretty sure it generally doesn't get reopen sort of thing. It's like, yeah, this isn't going to get solved sort of thing.

Yeah, but I mean there's I could be wrong, but there's this asshole running around that they that needs to uh, you know, be in prison.

Yeah, definitely I can agree with you on that one. Now, there were a few leads that investigators had looked into, and including in nineteen eighty seven when a Canadian woman allegedly told a friend that she saw her father strangle a woman in Massachusetts around nineteen seventy two. Police attempted to locate this woman, but unfortunately they were unsuccessful. And I just want to say, Okay, why the fuck would you not come forward if you saw someone strangle someone sooner?

Yeah, I mean, unless you there's many reasons, right, maybe you were like afraid or something, but yeah, for any reasons, but not many excuses. Yeah, I don't know good reasons, I guess, I don't know.

I can understand, because if you think that you're you yourself are a danger, I totally get it makes sense. But also this to me just sounds like she's having a passing conversation with like a friend at a nail slawan sort of situation. Oh this one time, I thought my dad strangled this check. And it's like, why is this such a casual conversation for you right now? That's the impression I get.

Yeah, it should not be a casual, yeah, conversation.

If it's a casual conversation, you should have loved already have gone to the police.

Yeah, the police should definitely have already known, because.

If you have, like we already talked about an excuse or a reason why you're not doing it, you're not having a casual conversation about Yeah. So, regardless of the police could not attempt this woman, and there is a possibility that it was even.

Just a rumor, so oh okay.

Another woman claimed that the reconstruction of the victim looked like her sister who had disappeared in Boston in nineteen seventy four, But no luck. Okay, investigators also followed a lead involving a missing criminal, Rory gene Kessinger, and other missing women. However, all of them were ruled out. No matter who they looked into, no matter what lead they did have, they still found themselves with a mystery and a cold case.

Yeah, there's just no smoking gun, hey.

Yeah, and it remained a mystery for years to come, like despite her body being exhumed two more times.

For sample more time.

Yeah, once in two thousand and another in twenty thirteen. Now, during this time, her skull sat on the desk of Provincetown Police Chief. The police chief, it was sitting there as a reminder of the case that they have yet to solve.

Good God.

And in twenty ten, the skull was scanned for a computer generated facial reconstruction. This time even still, the case remained cold, just as it was since the day arrived on their desk her first time.

Okay, Wow, I can't believe just how how much they're not giving up on this, Like the skull is just there as a daily reminder, yeah, that this is not solved, and like we got to find this person.

Right wow. Like at first when I read that that the skull was just sitting on the police chief's desk. Like when I say it's a daily reminder, that's my words. Because at first I was like, well, that's kind of almost disrespectful sort of thing, right, Like why would you do that? But also in the same sense, I've got a bit of a morbid curiosity, and I would love to own a human skull because I would love to take care of it.

Okay, that's where that conversation came from. Yes, yes, well Ben was researching this. He's like, hey, would you want to own a human soul? It's like that's so random, And also.

I don't think so, well, I I would love to have it for the fact that it's, hey, it's could be a beautiful piece. It's like beauty after death sort of thing, right, And it's like I feel like, if you respect that piece of that person and you still like let them rest and you take care of them, I think it could be a beautiful thing sort of thing.

And it also, I feel like is kind of a symbol of why they do the job too. Like it it doesn't. It represents her, but it also just represents you know, it's that one case that got away, but also you know, we're here for this reason and like we're protecting people and like solving unimaginable things that happened to them.

Yeah, we honestly, we could talk about the skull and being on his desk for I could go on for hours about this because it is a fascinating topic to me. But my best guess it was there for that reminder. It was there, as you said, to represent, you know, what they're there for, and that's where the skull sat. And because of that they were able to use it and make a computer generated reconstruction as well. Now it would take another five years until the next lead came in.

Oh my goodness, Okay, I mean this is cool because it's like they almost knew that technology would advance, right, and they're keeping her well. They had to exhume her a couple times. When it sucks, but this is good.

Okay, it's good. They held out hope, They did not give up, and like you say, they were just waiting for the moment when they had the break in the case. Yeah, and this is where it comes. So on October thirty first, on Halloween of twenty twenty two, the FBI office in Boston released a public statement that revealed that the victim was a woman by the name of Ruth Marie Terry.

Ruth okay so.

Ruth Terry was born on September eighth, nineteen thirty six, in Whitwell, Tennessee, to John and Eva Terry. In nineteen fifty seven, Ruth lived left Whitwell after a short lived marriage and found work as a Fisher Body automotive sorry at the Fisher Body Automotive Plant in Livnona, Michigan. The following year, she gave birth to her son, Richard. However, facing financial struggles, Ruth made the difficult decision to allow her workplace superintendent to adopt her son, and after the adoption,

She didn't even do the fucking job. Correct, that's a piss off. Hey, that's the fucking douche canoe in a half holy shit. Yeah, And so she didn't even really get reported as a as a missing person then, or she was also being reported I guess in a totally different state, wasn't she. Yeah, she's intendsh okay Okay.

So over the following years, Ruth was presumed or sorry her home was in California, then her family, and then where she went missing. So it's three different. So over the following years, though, Ruth was presumed dead, but Ruth's sister in law, Jan speculated that Ruth might have been in a witness protection program unable to contact her family. Now, reasoning behind that, I'm not too certain it could have been with what the PI told them being you know,

Fucking living his life, like I uh hate that.

Yeah. So Guy had a complex history. He was born as an orphan and was adopted by Abraham Albert Zawownski Mudevin and Sylvia Lily Silverbod. He had a brother named Michael Semyon Jay Mudavin. In nineteen forty two, Guy lived in New York City and attended the American Academy of Dramatic Arts. He married Jolene May Eloup on May eleventh of nineteen forty six in Bellevue, Pennsylvania, but they divorced

Holy shit, I'm still on the wife and the daughter that went missing, and you've already moved on.

Well, I didn't really move on. Gosh, did not really move on, because investigators found human body parts and guy's septic tank in nineteen seventy four.

Holy shit, But.

They couldn't prove they were from the missing women or even tie him to the remains, so he walked free from that.

Are you fucking kidding me?

He was also a suspect in the murder of Henry Lawrence red Baard, a bread truck driver, in the disappearance sorry, and the disappearance of Barbara Joe Kelly, a waitress in June of nineteen fifty. Barbara went missing and was found on the beach with a gunshot wound to the head.

So this guy is a fucking serial killer.

You could say that, Yeah, yeah, Okay, how.

Many freaking people did he end up killing by the time he gets caught.

I mean that's speculative because he was never technically tied to any of those So even saying calling him a serial killer is still speculation. No, I'm doing it though, totally gets you. I'm on board with you. I just playing devil's advocabe I or the facts. It is only speculation. He was never charged, he was never found guilty, he was never prosecuted. He was only a suspect in all of those. It's just not being said, I'm with you. He's a douche canoe. He fucking did it.

It just pisses me off because it's almost like a luck thing like that. He's like a lucky son of a bitch that just gets away with all these things. Yeah, can I have a little bit of that luck for something else?

Why what do you want to get away with? What the fuck?

No? I don't want to get away with anything. I just it would be cool if something nice happened. I would like some luck in my life that didn't involve like luck from killing.

Someone to che to sche I don't know. I feel like I have to sleep with one eye open.

Oh my god. She just doesn't deserve that luck, you know. Yeah what I'm getting? Okay, I got you, I got youa like he just this is just pissing me off.

Now, yeah.

Well.

Guy eventually moved to California around nineteen seventy six, where he went into retirement from his job when he was at the time working as an executive vice president of a silver store. He worked at a radio station in a tobacco shop a little bit there after as well. Now it was clear to authorities that with his history and what they had just uncovered now with the relationship with Ruth, that he was the man responsible for the murder.

When okay, At first, when you said that they were too late, I was just like, what do you mean, like that they weren't going to be able to convict him or something like.

I was just picked, Well, they're not able to convict him. He's dead like you not.

But like I thought, like he was. They weren't like he was going to just continue being like a free man.

Oh I see, well he did though, as you said, he just got to just live his life. You said that about like five ten minutes ago. He's just out there living his life and that's exactly what he did, yes, which is horrible.

But I was thinking that once they figured this out, that he still just got to continue living his life, which would be even more horrible. But it's all just a beg of shit. Really, it's just.

A bag of He's a bag of shit.

Yeah, Like it all just sucks.

So that is where this story ends. They found the lady of the dune's name, they identified her as Ruth. They found who killed her, and there's no prosecution, There is no resting easy. The only thing that we can really say is is those two things. She's been identified and so is her killer. But with his history since nineteen seventy four to two thousand and two, it begs the question, what else could he have done it?

Well? Yeah, like how many lives did he take?

Yeah?

Yikes, Oh you know, that's just gonna make me have a terrible day. Sorry, my bad, because that is just like it's such a piss off really that he just like I mean, we're talking about Ruth here, so like takes her life and we don't even know much about her. But for some reason, I just have like this picture of this like beautiful woman that's just like shines so brightly, and and like he just takes her life and then yeah, just gets to live on and keep doing this shit

Just yeah, yeah, I'm gonna bring up Ruth's Wikipedia here just so you can see what she did look like.

Oh no, do I want to know?

Well, you said that she sounds like she's such a beautiful person, and I mean physically she she is very beautiful. I mean I don't know what she was like as a human being, but we can at least take a look at the photo that they have up of her. Sorry, if you guys are listening to this, just give a quick Google search and you'll find her phone.

Okay, Oh, I mean she's a beautiful smile.

She is a very bright and very beautiful smile.

Yeah. How old was she when she passed?

Then I would have to do the math. She was born in thirty six and passed away in seventy four, so she was forty two?

Was she?

I believe? No? Thirty seven thirty seven?

Yeah, okay, my bad. I was trying to do that math.

My math. My head is horrible. Math is not my strong suit. I think we've gone over this before. Yeah, we're terrible at math.

Well and especially too like now you just like I almost was like, hey, let me get my calculator, but I don't know. You shouldn't need your calculator for that, I guess, so I don't know. Huh, that's terrible. Wow.

She was identified though, and her her gravestone is not going to read what it did before, right, which is.

Good, very very good. And it's so like, I feel so much effort was put into this case, which is slightly I don't know the word, but it kind.

Of puts person at ease a little bit. It's almost, Yeah, they didn't give up. They kept hope even over decades. They were patient, and that right there is what solved it. The patience of the investigators, the patients, of passing it on to new investigators and everyone being willing and doing their job.

And I almost hope. I don't know. I just had this picture in my head that like, as they're putting this new tombstone on there with her identification, right, that people involved in this case are there and there and they're feeling like they did like a really good job and you know, gave like the family and stuff closure.

Yeah. So one thing, and this is this is a speculation. I don't know. I couldn't find information on it. But you when you said, like you picture like everyone laying her to rest, I honestly picture the moment that they put her skull to rest with the rest of her remains too.

Oh whoa ben Okay, I don't know if they did, but I would assume that they did.

Yeah, wow, And I think that would have been the moment that really put it all together.

Huh. Yeah. I was just saying these like last little ends of this, like what we're picturing and stuff, This would be like kind of a really good movie.

Hey, it would be. It's it's very heartbreaking and it would make a good film.

Yeah, Like, I like, her story just turned into a movie. And this freakin' asshole guy, I can't eve remember what the hell his name was.

Yeah, we don't need to know.

But him, you know, and like what he's done and it's quite bizarre that he was able to get away with this stuff. But so many douche Canoes are able to get away with a lot of things, I think, which is terrifying.

And such is the world out there. Unfortunately, that's it's just the world we live in. It's a scary fucking place.

You would think, though, if they found freaking remains in a his septic tank that that could be pinned on him.

Yeah, but I don't I don't know how it wasn't, but it wasn't.

Wow. Well, I mean them, depending how much they were the bodies were left, there was probably no evidence in stuff, right.

Well, they couldn't identify DNA or anything clearly because it couldn't pin the remains to the missing or link remains the missing women.

So you have to wonder if like their hands and stuff were removed as well, because he might have had a that could have been like his.

What calling card? Yeah, he could have pulled teeth and hands from them too.

Okay, and one more thing I just want to state is it was very interesting the date that they chose to release all this information being on Halloween. I know, I almost feel like it's interesting that they didn't wait today or or something because that it almost it just seems like a very interesting day to release it in my opinion.

Yeah.

So anyway, good job.

Well, I don't think to the authorities that releasing it on Halloween makes any difference. It's just get the information out there. It's just another way.

When they have it ready.

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, so that is the case of well Lady of the Dunes, but also Ruth Marie Terry. Yeah, so thanks to our patrons, because you guys turned us onto this case, very interesting one, and I'm glad that I got to research it, no kidding, And I'm glad that Ruth got to finally be named and laid to rest properly.

Yeah. Yeah, I mean it's a terrible end, but it's it's a good end as well. I mean it's it ended the best way it could. It ended the best way it could after terrible things had happened.

Yes, there's other things I wish could have happened but didn't, like, like the douche Canoe actually being prosecuted would have been fantastic.

Yeah, but well yeah, okay, there's.

Always a silver lining, and we have a silver lining.

Here, a little bit of one. Yeah, yeah, for sure.

Thank you so much for listening. Hopefully you guys enjoyed this episode, And if you want to check out more, you can go ahead in the description of this podcast where we have all our links, but you got things like Instagram, Facebook, YouTube or we're really active and Patreon where you can go get the behind the scenes access

Yeah, I don't tell until next week when it will be my turn.

Okay, I wasn't going to call you on it. Nicole's finally doing a case next time. She's diving deep, so.

Well, yeah, I am reading a book, so about it, and yeah, it will be it will be ready next week.

Okay, well we're holding you to it. Next week I might be doing an episode now, I'm just next week Nicole will be doing the episode.

So until then, stay wicked,