Katarzyna Zowada - Human Skin Suit

Most of us, when looking at a character like Buffalo Bill from the movie The Silence of the Lambs, probably find him more than a bit creepy. But we also go to sleep at night thinking there's no one in the real world who do the horrible and terrible things that Buffalo Bill did. Unfortunately, that's not the case, and we're about to prove yet again that sometimes life is more brutal and horrible than fiction.

I'm Nicole, I'm Ben, and this is Wicked and Grim, a true crime podcast. Good morning. The following podcasts.

Semi audience listener, just question, is that much? Are you really just drinking water?

I am, But I have a straw, so it's okay.

So that makes it better. Hey, it's like the equivalent of beer.

Well not quite, but it makes me feel a little bit happier because there's a straw.

You love your straws.

I do. Straws are dope. Although I broke this one, I think, oh seriously, I was chewing it slightly earlier.

Cracked stress chewing.

Not really. It was more like there's a straw, I'm gonna bite it, and I heard a crack. Oh it's as simple as that.

Okay, Well, welcome. This is literally our last episode before we're celebrating our second annivers.

A ring two years Wick and and Grim podcasting. That is wild.

You would have thought like I honestly don't think I would have thought that. Well, No, I would have. I don't think I would have thought we would be here by now, though.

Like you thought, we would have given.

Up possibly bucket we're done. Yeah, but no, this has been like fun and enjoyable, and the connections that we've made and the people that we have in our corner is unbelievable. It is.

We've turned into a pretty successful indie podcast as far. Yeah, I'm concerned so and it's been a blast this whole time. And I still feel like we still don't know what the fuck we're doing.

No, I feel like, yes, sometimes I'm even like I know less what I'm doing.

You know less, just question everything everything.

I do, actually question more things.

So well, I'm glad we're still rolling. And thanks to you guys for the support this entire time.

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Speaking of thanking people, we have patrons to thank this week. Signed up so I have not pre prepared reading the names this time. I just realized Oh, so I'm gonna fly by the seat of my pants and who luck that I do get names correct?

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It sounded like you fucking knew them right, like that they were all your friends.

The key is confidence there you go. Key is just fake it till you make it right.

Yeah. Actually I need to learn that sometimes a bit better.

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We are for our second anniversary. Yeah.

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Yeah, it kind of all lined up at the same time. We're like, this is perfect. It was meant to be.

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Yeah, are you going to share what it is? Of course it's all drawn by Ben and done by Ben.

Yeah. Well we're doing we're taking the one Wicked year design revamping that. So it's just going to say, uh, we haven't decided just yet. That's the last one we got to design. It's either stay Wicked or Wicked and Graham or Wicked and Graham. And then we've got one that says stay with like thirty thousand y's on it, and then at the end it says Wicked Wicked and then not Cool Carl.

Not Cool Carl. I'm humped for that one.

Actually, finally dropping that one, and finally to go along with mister Bones, we have Missus Bones. Yeah, so head on over to our red Bubble to check them out. Coming tomorrow the.

Eighth, Yeah, Wednesday, right, yes, February eighth. And just like backtracked slightly. So the Not Cool Carl is like we had anything two or three episodes in a row or something. We're literally like the freaking Douche Canoe was Carl or one.

I remember it was around Carl Tansler was one of them. So it was in those episodes somewhereere we actually talked about not cool.

Carl, Yeah, because there was quite a few Carls that are like, yes city. Yeah, so that's where that kind of came from. So yeah, yeah, that's exciting. Okay, and then really really quickly, we'll post a photo on Instagram. But we rescued a peppers.

We did.

Her name is Honey, Honey. She is like the sweetest fucking thing in the whole world.

She needed a new home. We went to the SPCA and she fit right in at home with Ripley. Ripley needed a new friend.

Yeah, so we fought. We fostered her for a bit, and yeah, it was unbelievable. It was like it was meant to be, because yeah, Ripley hasn't been like thriving being a solo dog. So yeah, this is gonna be good for good for everyone involved. I think everyone's hearts and.

Yeah, so far, so good.

Yeah. Yeah, so we'll post a photo.

She's really sweet, one hundred percent. Go check it out. Links right down below for those social media's, by the way, on Instagram, all of it.

So are you ready to roll?

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Okay? So today we're going across to Poland and back to the year of nineteen nine and nine, I mean ninety eight. I wanted to say ninety nine so bad, but it's actually ninety eight.

But the button okay, But why did you want to say ninety nine?

I don't know if better in my brain flows better flows?

Okay. Quick side note here. One of my favorite numbers of all time is nineteen ninety seven. Really, not because it was a good year or anything. I just remember as a kid being in like I think it was like fourth grade or something. I don't know, but we had to write the date at the top of our assignments and stuff. Okay, and I remember when the new year came in and it was writing nineteen ninety eight.

So you want to be stuck in nineteen ninety seven.

I just like the look of the number nineteen ninety seven. There's something there that's just I don't know, appealing.

Yeah, I actually feel like there's clothing brands that I'm thinking about, or maybe it's nineteen seventy seven. I don't know. Anyway, the seventy seven is too many.

Sevens ninety nine is okay because it's in the middle and you have the one in the seven on either side, okay, and the seven and one are similar, so a balance is nice.

There you go. Now you got in weird fact.

I like the number in nineteen ninety seven, no specific reason other than it's just looks it's satisfying.

Well, that was why I was like nineteen nine and nine. That flows good. Okay. So we're going to talk about the murder of Katasina Zawata. You ready, I'm ready? Do you know about this?

I a little bit barely, Like I could give you an elevator pitch and that's about it, Okay, not even hardly.

We're going a little deeper than an elevator pitch, I hope.

So.

So, at the time, Katasina was twenty three years old, she was a university student and right at the start of her life. But her start had already been a bit rough around the edges. Her father died just two years before she started university, and his death had a huge impact on her. Her friends and classmates described her as someone who was nice, but also someone who always seems sad and a bit withdrawn. It sucks, I know, isn't that just like, oh.

Those people are usually thinking of other people more than themselves.

Actually, yeah, yeah, she just like has a lot of big feelings. Probably m h. Actually, since the death of her father, Katasina had been suffering from depression, and it was pretty clear that she was feeling the side effects of that rippling through the rest of her life as well. Socially, she was shutting down and academically she just couldn't seem to pick a direction. She was attending university in Krackow, but in the short time she'd been there, she'd already

Oh, one hundred percent, especially like you think of parents asking little kids like, oh, you're twelve years old, what do you want to do for the next I don't know, seventy fucking years.

Yeah, So her changing because I think lots of times people they get there and then they're attending some classes. Oh it doesn't like feel that right, So I think it's totally fine to just change how to kind of explore.

I have totally respect that.

So where was I here?

Oh?

Did I disuse my spot?

You did, didn't you?

Yeah? Oh yeah. She spent her first semester studying psychology. Then she dabbled in history for a little while before she found her feet and decided to study religious studies instead. Okay, and that was a good first steps towards getting her life back on track and settled. But it wasn't the only thing that Katasino was doing to try to get her life together. She was also in psychiatric treatment for her depression.

Okay, well that's good. Seeking help is a really good thing.

Absolutely no one should be afraid of seeking help or like feel shameful.

Agreed.

So she'd been going to a clinic for a while and she was sticking with it, just pushing through. What the end goal of getting better, right goal, And that was what she was doing on November twelfth, nineteen ninety eight, or supposed to be doing.

Oh no, whenever there's a date, some shits about to go down.

Whenever date you dropped the dates, it's going down. We're sure she had an appointment at the clinic and the plan was to meet her mother there, but unfortunately, Katazina never showed up. Her mother waited the clinic, hoping that her daughter would show up or at least try to get in contact with her right But a few hours later it became painfully obvious that she wasn't coming.

Damn.

Something about this didn't sit right with Katasina's mother, and she went straight to the police station to try to file a missing person's report.

Well that's good, I like. I like that she actually went forward with it right away, I know, rather than thinking and it's.

Just making up shit in your head that actually went down.

It's very natural for everyone to make excuses, being like, oh, no, it's probably this, or it's probably that. So I like that she actually said, no, something's probably wrong. I should go and report this right away.

And we said, we've mentioned this so many times, but especially like in all these cases, a lot of times shit does go so too when people don't listen to their gout feelings. Right, So that her daughter was an adult and she'd only been missing for a few hours, the police didn't take Katsina's mother very seriously, and they told her that she would have to wait a bit longer to file the missing person's report.

I understand. I mean, it makes sense you can't just be running after everything right away. But also in the same context, it's like you should probably be listening to the person filing.

Yeah, I know, and I was. I honestly wanted to touch on this because we get that there's protocol, right, and then a lot of people too that I'll go missing, they do end up turning up, right, Yeah, But I do feel like there's extenuating circumstances where maybe they do need to take it seriously right away. For sure, Katsina she was suffering from depression, right.

But the problem is, how do you differentiate I know, those cases from the other ones, right, yeah, because those are gonna be like the one percent I know.

Yeah, but lots of times too, if it's out of character too, like she I thought her and her mom were close and she'd never really gone. Singer would have always checked in with her mom.

So I just I don't know that out of character is a big one.

And because especially in like a missing person's case, those first few hours are pretty like crucial. Oh yeah, like very crucial.

Yeah, isn't it like the most like the first twenty four hours is basically if you don't find him after.

That, every hour chances just decreased.

Yeah, it's like a statistical chance that every hour after those first twenty four hours is like eventually it's a zero.

Yeah. So nonetheless, who really knows if anything was lost during that time that the police refused the mother's report. Things would, however, become a bit clearer on January sixth of nineteen ninety nine, only unfortunately for Katasina and her mother, it was not the good kind of news.

No.

A pusher tug boat called the Elk was out on the Vistula that day when the captain noticed that something was wrong. It sounded like something was jammed or caught in the propeller, so he notified the crew and waited for it to be cleared. All right, your look on your face, this wasn't really anything that would alarm anyone.

God, can you imagine going to work that day and just being like, oh, lotti dootty dot wait, there's a body, well, just.

Being that shocked that you're like, oh, I gotta go, like get these fucking tree branches out from the propeller like every other day, and then boom, like you can't expect shit, no, like you never know when something's just going to go astray.

Well, how many people do you hear about going for a walk in a park and discovering that shit?

Yeah? Oh, I actually really hope that would never happen to me. I would freak, Yeah, I'd freak. So the head, arms, and legs were gone, leaving behind what looked like the skin of a woman's torso sewn together. Initially, all the authorities had to go with was this piece of skin, but they were able to collect a DNA sample and trace it back to Katasina. Katasina was still a missing person, and now with that particular part of her remains recovered, it was safe to say she was dead.

Yeah, she was coming home.

Yeah, but the question remained how had she died and who had done this horrible act to her. A week later, and from that same river, her right leg was found, and that was all anybody ever found of her. That was all that was found left of the body. No head, like,

They were able to tell some pre striking propeller.

Yes, yes, if that's.

A scientific word, pre striking propeller.

Bumpy stuff. Is that what you said, bumpy?

I don't know what I said. What did I say?

I don't even know.

He was very signed.

It was very It was like it showed that you were very educated on the Yes.

Very articulate edumacation.

Yes, showing through it was found. So what was found was that her skin was removed from her torso on purpose, and her limbs and head had been cut off. So this was not shit that the propeller did.

Okay, so this was literally just skin they pulled from the propellers.

Yes, God, Yes, her skin had been cut and sewn back together to make a body suit. It was almost like a vest, perhaps meaning that it was more than likely that her killer had made this to wear themselves.

Yeah, so here comes that buffalo bill portion.

Yeah, so treating it and sewing it back together just didn't make any sense otherwise, like this fucker.

Was fucked fucked. Yeah, that's for sure.

Like I don't even know else to explain that. It is so disgusting it is.

I'm I'm gonna be honest, I might be a little bit desensitized to.

This case because of that movie.

Because of that movie, because I'm just having images of like I'm having cinema images pop in my head.

Relevan than like you know, yeah, I'm not saying you're terrible, but it's like it's terrible that these like terrible movies do that to us.

Kind of yeah, no, I agree, yeah, but it's like thinking about I can't really think of this as a real case almost right.

Now, really, hey, oh well, there'll be a point where I think you can.

I do hope I can, because I don't want to just brush over Katasina. No, but yeah, right now, I just I'm picturing Buffalo Bill the whole nine yards.

So yeah, So Katazina's case quickly turned into a case on like any other in Poland, But that also meant that the investigators had no idea where to start looking for the person who'd done this to her. They interviewed suspect after suspect, but it looked like they were all out of luck when the most unbelievable thing happened in May of nineteen ninety nine, just a few months after Katizina's remains were discovered.

You got to say nineteen ninety nine.

I know, I actually noted that in my head, but I was like, just keep going, just keep reading your notes, don't get distracted.

Sorry.

So almost the exact same thing happened again. Really, this time the victim was a man, and this time the authorities already had somebody in custody. And I don't know if this is how you're going to pronounce this name, but I'm it's like Valdimir, Like I just can't. It's spelled exactly the Harry Potter name. So I'm just Voldemort Valdimir. It was Valdemart.

Valdemort isn't Harry Potter.

Okay, I think this is Valdemir. Then I'm getting their names mixed up.

Yeah you are.

He's like the evil one though, right, Yeah, he.

Has no nose, right, that's him.

So this valdem I think Valdemir w was the son of the murder victim, and he killed and scalped his own vall. He then pulled the skin off his father's face, made a mask and had been seen wearing Holy shit, Yes, that is so he does have like evil Harry Potter dude vibes.

No kidding, I'm looking at this though. So he did this to his father, his father, and he did this too, I mean as of right now. If he did do it Katazina, they probably didn't know each other, probably a random act, or he saw her and scoped her out for something. So I don't see a connection for him doing this to just women. I think it's just he's just a sick individual and picks targets at random sort

Father, right well, yeah exactly. Oh gosh, yeah, he must have just like despised his father.

Hey yeah, unless it's something that he did do and his father figured out, or he just got mad at his father and he just like, well I'm going to do it to him too.

Yeah, but like that is some ra age and a half. No shit, that is about as much rage I think as someone could have on someone else. So for the investigators. All this was too many similarities for the cases not to be related, right, Yeah, of course, so Voldemir became the main suspect in Katazina's case as well. But incredibly, the investigators found no evidence to back that theory up, and it turned out that it was just a coincidence.

What what really?

Yes? And it is it is just a coincidence? Yes?

Yes, wow, Okay.

Within the year, Katazina's case was out of suspects, which meant which meant it was essentially dropped. Investigators continued to work on the case in their own time, but not with the same numbers of resources that had been dedicated to it before, and it didn't look like anyone expected to make any headway on it. But many years later, many many years later, in twenty twelve, oh, they caught a break when advances in technology gave new hope and

Honest, so do I. But I'm really curious on what sort of advances in technology would be able to dig up mangled skin evidence from like ten year, twenty years ago or whatever.

Well no, because yeah, it was like nineteen ninety eight, so it's not really that.

Many years, okay, so it's like fourteen years ago.

Yeah, And I don't honestly specifically know. So Katasina's case was formally reopened, her remains were actually exhumed, and a second autopsy was conducted, all with the hopes of catching her killer. So I don't really know the exact technology that improved or what happened, but something.

There must have been some other DNA discovered on it or something.

Yeah, I mean kind of around then and recently too, a lot of advances have been made kind of in science in that way too.

Oh yeah, well if you look at the last well since we'll say two thousands, since the year two thousand, yeah, to now, look how far technology has come. Yeah, not only just in like crime scene investigation sort of stuff and like DNA analysis, literally just technology all around.

Absolutely, how fast.

We can process information is so much more advanced that it's like, okay, maybe it would be like let's get a DNA test and it's going to take us ten months to do this, whereas now it's like, yeah, I'll have it done to you this afternoon, yeah, tomorrow. Not to say if they are that fast, but we had the capability to be that much faster.

Exactly. Yes, And this time around, the autopsy was able to get a better idea of exactly what had happened to Katasina before she died, and Noah gave the investigators a better idea of who they were looking for. None of it painted a pretty picture of her last moments on earth. No I do actually find it weird, like maybe I should have tried to dig deeper into that. That's so much changed in those years, But I know

In nineteen ninety eight. Sorry, yeah, okay, you said eighty.

Eight oh, nineteen ninety eight. Before that, he had given her drugs. He also broke her her femur and pelvis by punching a barbell and bodybuilding plate into her. Stab wounds, chop wounds, and lacerations were all discovered. He probably also sexually abused her when she was alive and dead.

Wow what a piece of shit.

Yeah. So now remember too, she went missing on November twelfth, nineteen ninety eight, and I'm all fucked up with my dates, and they don't believe she was killed until December seventh, or between December seventh and fourteenth, Like they're not even sure. So that's like a month.

Wow.

Yeah.

Could you imagine if she was actually still alive for that time and enduring all that. Well, I think she was, but like, yeah, that's what I'm saying. If she was, can you imagine what she was going through?

I know, fuck like hell on earth.

Yeah.

Her official cause of death was blood loss. But this pot I literally have it here. But this poor woman went through absolute hell during the time she was held captive. Along with being tortured during the possible month that the killer had had her, and the traces of sexual abuse both before and after her death, it was highly likely that the skin from Catazina's torso had been removed while she was still alive.

Yeah, that's kind of what I was thinking. If her death was blood loss, I was thinking either she was probably a skinned alive or be she was being delimbed alive.

Yeah, which is almost too much to fathom, Like, that's too much.

That would probably be one of the most excruciating oh anyone could ever feel.

Yeah, I can't even imagine. In the following years, people from all over the world, including the FBI and UN would send experts and consultants in hopes of helping the Polish authorities catch the man who'd done this to Katazina. By twenty sixteen, everyone was on the lookout for a man with sadistic tendencies, with a prior history with abuse towards women, and someone trained in martial arts.

Well, whoa, whoa, whoa.

I'll explain this is that.

Because of the barbelle punching.

Thing, possibly the way in which she had been so badly beaten and with such force led investigators to believe that the killer was trained in mixed martial arts.

Really.

Yeah, so that was literally like on their sheet of what they look for. Fuck.

Yeah, that makes this person even more disgusting.

Yeah, it's very disturbing.

Cool, Okay, generally along with martial arts, there is a very big thing about you use this for self defense only. There's a big respect factor in it. I mean a lot of martial arts comes from like Japan or China, right where honor and such is a huge part of it.

I knew you'd have to speak on this because for people that don't know Ben, you was like in karate for a long time. Yeah, I think a very long time.

Yeah, it was a national level competitor and yeah, yeah, so I feel that one a little bit.

Yeah, so in many ways I knew that you think that's very disturbing.

That's very very disturbing.

Yeah. So in some ways it was an almost expected profile, but when it comes to potential murder suspect, sorry, it was an expected profile. But then in other ways, there was many things in there that were a bit out of the ordinary, but not out of the ordinary enough that investigators could use it to really narrow down the list of suspects. But it was a profile that would come together and make sense a year later.

A year later, Hey, I feel so.

Bad with these time gaps, Like the family just must be in like freaking agony.

But the nice thing is is that they're not still in a time gap. When a time gap comes to an end, that means someone eventually got closure.

Yeah right, but still they hadn't waited long down time for all this.

Oh yeah, no, I get don't get me wrong, Like that's fucking horrendous that they had to go through that.

Yeah, but at least it ended exactly. And I wonder if the mom, hopefully a mom was even alive to have received that. In twenty seventeen, the investigators received a letter. Exactly what was in that letter had been kept a secret, but we do know that the letter suggested that the authorities take a closer look at one man in particular, and this man had actually been a person of interest in the initial investigation, but not enough evidence was found

Always starts with the animal, not always, but it seems like fucking every other case starts with the animals. I know, poor fucking helpless animals.

I just hate that. At one point, Robert had been working at the Krakow Institute of Zoology, that was until he was fired. Robert had been looking after the rabbits in the institute that day, but by the time he went to hand over his shift to the next person, all the rabbits were dead.

All of them, every single one.

Yep. Robert claimed that he had no idea what happened, and the institute immediately fired his ass. Wow, okay, could you like, what the fuck?

Hey, It's like being like, oh, I'm going into my shift to flip some burgers today and after your shift you're just walking out of the restaurant as it burns to the ground. Yeah. I don't know what happened, very.

Much like he had one job of probably keeping the rabbits alive and they all died.

Yeah wow, good job, Robert.

Yeah. So now for the next piece of information. And there are mixed reports here, so some say while at the institute, of zoology, Robert could observe and learned how to peel away mammal's skin or the process of preparing animal skins. And some say that previously to the zoo, he had apparently worked in a dissecting lab where he dealt with human corpses. So I don't know, take your pick, I suppose, but either way it gave him the skill to create a human body suit, as he did to Katasina.

Yeah, either of those sounds like it would be a a background story for an evil villain in a comic book.

Oh, actually, one hundred percent. Yeah, one hundred percent. So Robert also had a history of harassing women, spying on his neighbors, and was known to war to wear women's clothing.

Oh so, not only was he an absolute douche Canoe, he was an all around douche Canoe, got it?

Got it? Yeah, for the harassing women and spying on the neighbor's part, not for wearing women's clothing.

I mean, you could wear women's clothing if you want. He just sounds like an absolute douche.

Oh yeah, all of the above is.

Absolute douche who happens to wear women's clothing. Yeah, there's nothing wrong with you wear whatever you want. I don't give a shit. He's just a douche who does that thing.

And the women's clothing is only in there because like that could kind of describe why he would want this like women's body suit.

Right, Well, that's exactly how it played out for Buffalo Bill.

You're still on the Buffalo, Well, yeah.

That is literally the plot line of silence and lambs. Yeah, Buffalo Bill was transgender. He was a male and he felt like he should be a woman. So the reason why he went out and skinned women was so he could make a skin suit for him to wear. He could feel like he was in the skin. He felt like he should be in.

Right, And I do think that one of the reports I read said that Robert was bisexual, so and I think I forgot to put that in here. So after the letter, investigators put eyes on Robert while they waited to collect more and more evidence against him, right, and what they discovered was pretty fucked up and would seal his fate.

There we go.

There was one place that Robert, Robert would routinely visit. Do you have any guesses? I think you should be able to guess.

This probably the university where she was studying.

Her grave?

Her grave, her grave? How the fuck was I going to guess that?

I don't know. I thought you might.

That's way out of left field.

She would routinely go and visit her grave site.

Really whoa? That is fucked up on.

Another really messed up? Yeah, really mess Wow.

I wonder why he would be visiting her grave.

Well, I don't don't know. He was probably like obsessed with her, right, maybe I don't know.

But in which way was he obsessed with her? Was he obsessed in mourning what he did to her?

Oh that could be Actually.

Was he like sorry for his actions? Was he obsessed with her as a person and wished he didn't do that? Was he obsessed with the power that he held over her now even in life and death, being like, yeah, no one fucking knows, I'm the one here standing over your grave and still no one knows, Like.

Why I know, I don't think anyone really knows? That is fuck and well I'll touch on that and again in a secon in a sec fuck. So, after realizing that, the authorities moved in on Robert and he was arrested on October fourth of twenty seventeen. They also discovered a few more things in his apartment. They found blood in his bathroom, and it was never really said if it was like Katerina's blood, but I think you can probably

Of course he fucking did.

Yep. So Robert was charged with aggorated murder with particular cruelty. His entire defense hinged on him saying that he didn't know Katerina Katerina, yeah, and had nothing to do with her death, Like he didn't fucking know her, but yet he's like visiting her grave on a routine basis, which doesn't make any sense.

Kata Zina, isn't it.

I don't know, I think Katazine. Yeah, I'm saying her name wrong all of a sudden.

Sorry, that's okay, it's sometimes it's it's difficult when you start talking about another name from another language.

Yes, yeah, so that doesn't make any sense. No, he doesn't know this person, but yet he's like visiting their grave.

And it's in his diary.

Yeah yeah, And there's blood in his bathroom.

Yeah again walking away from your shift at work and at the building is burning down, being like that's what happened.

Such a good comparison there, Oh my gosh. So agencies and institutions all over the world, not just in Poland, were eager to see what would happen with this case, and that tipped the scales. When it did eventually go to court in twenty nineteen, an order was issue that made the trial closed to the public, meaning that a lot of the information and evidence that the prosecution had against Robert had remained a mystery, including the actual outcome of the case.

Oh even the outcome.

Yes, So what we do know is that the case had gone to court and Robert remains in custody. From that, we can say that he was at least found guilty of something, presumingly in relation to Katazina, but we can't say for sure or for how long he's expected to be in prison for Robert had made several complaints of abuse from the guards, but investigators, perhaps unsurprisingly, couldn't find

Wow, that is very different that the court did not issue any details even after deliberation.

And because he's an adult, right, that almost seems like it was like an adolescent adolescence. Yeah.

Interesting. I mean, I actually honestly don't mind the idea of their not being publicized court cases until afterwards, until after sentencing and stuff.

Well, because media can actually, oh it can big time.

It can definitely. I mean, for example, as much as it was entertaining for all of us the whole Johnny Depp and Amber Herd case in like he was on TV and ever, look how many people had opinions on everything.

Was that actually that entertaining?

I mean, it was entertaining for a lot of people.

Yeah, it was, but I mean it was also ridiculous, that's all. I mean, if you found it entertaining, that's totally fine, but it was also ridiculous.

Well how above and beyond people were going with it sort of thing. Yeah, But I just I don't mind that idea on keeping it quiet, not releasing too many details, letting the court do its thing, and then after sentencing, after finding out what occurred, then releasing things.

Yeah, because is this not going to I mean, maybe they're going to release something eventually, but like if he just comes out, are they not going to say anything and then this day it's just like walk on the streets.

Yeah, no kidding. I think that there's almost like a right for the public to know, you know, yeah, especially if he does go walking free. Yeah wow, Okay.

I know it's a different between mind blowing, but it is still like fairly fresh. So I'm I'm almost maybe in my brain, I'm like, oh, well, maybe like COVID screwed something up and there it's actually not even like done yet, Like I don't know, who knows. I don't know because this, I mean, he went to court, it said in twenty and eighteen, and maybe things didn't finish

Yeah, too hopeful, too hopeful, Yeah, gotcha.

Huh So, yeah, that is the brutal murder Katsina.

It sounds like he fucking did it.

Oh yeah, I mean it does sound incredibly like he did it.

He wrote detailed accounts in his diary yeah, about committing it.

And that blood. I mean, it never even released if that blood was hers in the bathroom, but I mean I'm just assuming.

Even still if there were, there would be no noteworthy reason to note if it was his own blood. So it's clearly going to be someone else's blood. Yeah, because I mean, how many times if you like, I don't know, picked a hangnail and like, oh shit, and you're bleeding in your own bathroom or stubbed your toe or who knows what.

Right, Oh yeah, I was bleeding buckets the other day when I was trying to get an am grown tone.

Yeah, clear, Yeah.

It was like a scene and a half in there.

Exactly. Bleeding in bathrooms is not an abnormal thing.

So but I mean, unless it wasn't like her blood, unless it was someone else's, like he knows. Maybe, but it could have even found more things about him being even worse or doing this to other people.

Could have linked him to other crimes. Yeah, he could be a serial killer.

Yeah, I mean, because that what he did was pretty messed up, and it doesn't seem like that would be the first case, the first thing that you would do.

To I don't think so. Usually you start off pretty small, and he's skinned someone and turned them into a vest.

Skin them pretty much alive yet, So that's.

Pretty extreme to start right out from the get go.

I feel like he has to be a serial I.

Would assume so, But I mean you can't just assume those things. You'd have to find evidence, right I know.

Yeah, Wow, that's.

Wild and it's crazy that there just happened to be someone else who skinned their father's face.

Yeah, at this pretty much the same time.

And dumped the body in a similar fashion.

I don't know if they did dump the body. I don't think I said they dumped the body.

Didn't you say that they got caught up in a boat propeller the same way or something?

No, I don't think so. I think you just made that up.

Oh, I thought you did say it.

Oh. I think it might have been for that case. Oh. I didn't look into it too much, but I think it might have been like the grandfather or something that had turned him in. And I don't know if this is legit, Like, I don't know, but there was some I didn't research this enough, but there was one report that basically said that he wore this mask like in front of his grandfather, pretending to be like the dad

Wow.

Yeah, because if you can do that to your own dad.

To your own dad, to your.

Own grandpa, yeah, I mean his dad might have done some ship to him, though we don't know.

Yeah, but that doesn't deserve fucking getting skinned.

No, it doesn't. But I just mean, like I was saying, if you can do that to your dad, what could you do to someone else? But then maybe the dad actually did bad things and blah blah blah.

Yeah, maybe the dad aggravated him to the point that he broke doesn't mean it's an excuse to break and do those highness things. But yeah, heinous highness.

Heinous highness is like your highness. Yeah, oh my gosh, we're we're really winning on this podcast today.

And I'm only drinking water.

Both of us are. Okay, maybe alcohol is like our special power.

It's like Popeye in this spinach.

Yeah right, so like when we're not drinking alcohol, we're just like fucking up.

Clearly. Is there anything we got to talk about before we wrap this up? We didn't talk about the Wicked Box giveaway, so we did social media sold on. Excuse me, there we go social media where you can go check it out Facebook and Instagram. There'll be some posts on it and an exclusive one as well for patreons. There's two available. Patrons have the option to win in both. Just just a little heads up on that and what else too?

Yeah, then merch and then we're also going to post a photo of our new honey Honey dogo.

Yeah, so check all that stuff out, all those links down below. If you feel up to it, you can go ahead and rate us as well. I don't know if anyone's out there rating us. We got a couple of ratings recently and they were super nice, super kind. So we really appreciate you guys for that. We read every single one.

Oh yeah, we absolutely do.

So thank you so much for that support. That's incredible and makes.

Our day, it really does.

Yeah, it's a good job on that episode, babe.

Thank you. It was actually at first it's kind of like, oh, do I want to research this one? Like sometimes it's just like it gets to your head and your I'd rather like watch a Sunshine and Rainbow show than like research this. But it was actually very It was very interesting, and I kind of did a little bit of a deeper dive in some spots, and I mean, it's horrible what happened to her, just so unnecessary. But yeah, some of the things in here are very different and like wow, yeah.

And thankfully I was actually able to separate the whole Buffalo build thing in my head. Initially, I was like, oh, I'm just just literally fucking picturing this Hollywood movie sitting down watching TV. But no, it was very not very long after that where I was like, Okay, this is this is a real case. It is a real person, a real situation, so and.

Just think about, Okay, this is a tay I'm so sorry in events, but she is leaving her mom behind, and her mom had already lost the dad. Oh so the poor mom is like another real victim in this fuck. Anyway, that that, I do apologize.

You just sprink a little bit of salt into that wound.

Yeah, yeah, not the good.

Well, on that note, thank you, we appreciate it for sprinkling the assault on your wounds. I got another case coming up next time. It's a little less sad. Yeah, we asked our patrons to give us a case. It's a little more light hearted. I mean it is still crime based. So yeah, a little more less sad case coming next week.

Here we go, so we have something to look forward to. We have our second anniversary you look forward to, and a not so sad case. Yes we're winning.

Yes it'll be a good one all right.

Well, until then, stay wicked.