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O Kate account me now for that three two one go? Oh my gosh, you're like, what are we talking about? I'm trying to listen stuff.
And then you said we're just gonna wing it and start it, and then I hit record and you're like talking Patreon and then.
Here we are, Well, excuse me, I'm Nicole, I'm Ben. You're listening to Wick and.
Graham True Crime Podcast. What's up, guys?
How's it going?
It's going, It's going pretty good.
So good.
We are work clearly going to be talking patreons patrons today and mimosas was.
I was going to talk about that to grab your Moses?
Yeah, where do we leave off.
For the patrons at Christine Scott.
Christine Scott was our last one that we thanked. Christine Scott, you're getting thanked again and thank you much for being an amazing Patreon. And of course we've got Echo Yama Lee's frets. I really hope I said your name right. I'm sorry if I didn't. And Jessica Bird they all signed up for Patreon this week. So you guys are amazing. Thank you very much for everyone over on Patreon. You guys really help us keep this going, so thank you so much.
Yeah, we literally think you guys are all freaking awesome.
Legit, that's why they got exclusive March right.
So and they'll get more of that.
Yeah, they will. You actually have some socks you wanted to do a giveaway?
Well no, I have some Jacko's stuff actually that I want to give away and I just haven't done that yet.
You probably should, but I will.
I'll get on that, do it, you know, with my oodles of free time, I'll get right on that.
Doodles and noodles.
Yes.
Oh, speaking of the merch and giveaway and stuff, I was thinking we should come up with a new design for Wicked and Grim.
Soon, another one, another one?
Well, I think every once in a while, and you know, to come up with a new design or too. You know the way we go.
Well, you enjoy doing it, so it do make sense.
I like doing the artsy stuff, so why not. So what we want you guys to do? Head over to our Instagram or a Facebook or email or wherever you want to get a hold of us. And tell us what you would like to see fro merch. Maybe we'll even do a post so you guys can comment and let us know. So, so, yeah, tell us what you want to see. I know some people want to see a few particular things, like you're nasty.
Oh yeah, you're nasty. That's a good one. I actually want to see that too.
Well, maybe we'll have to do that in this round, but we'll see what everyone says.
So I'm so just distracted by the smell of farts. Well because I'm right by the dogs and they're disgusting. They're nasty, and so this is gonna be fun.
I can't put all the blame on them. I'm not gonna lie. I might have broke wind once or twice.
Oh my gosh, this tiny home living thing, you know, I'm just living the life.
There's not much ventilation. No, it's you trapped.
And it's quite funny. So part we're on, Part two, Part two, Part two, And I ended in kind of a shitty spot for y'all last time, and I got some flak.
But it was epic.
But to my defense, is that not like how every TV drama ends pretty much making you want more? Yeah, so I'm just starting to be cool, so like, don't be all at me.
It was well played.
I think you're very well played at job. I deserve a pat on the back, not like flak.
I'll i'd patch you. What's you on the other end of the table and behind a microphone?
No, but actually I thought i'd get more flack than I did, So thank you. It was fun.
Yeah, they got you back. They got you back.
They do they do. Okay, so yeah, are we ready to start part two?
We're just diving right in.
Oh my goodness. Well yeah, I think before you got in hand, let's get wondering what's going on here? But let's do this because I still think that this is just not a widely out their case, which is so wild.
Because it's not a widely out their case, it's.
Nuts not that is not more known and just out there everywhere.
Okay, can you give us a quick wrap up, like a ten second elevator pitch on what last episode entailed?
Yes, I'm going to do that. Oh okay, Okay, So we were talking about Dennis Nilsen and so he had just basically had turned his fantasy into a reality. He had just murdered fourteen year old Stephen Holmes, his fantasy being basically like necrophilia. I guess, yes, is what you call it, but I just hate saying that it's.
But that gross word for a very gross definition.
And up to that point of Stephen, he really was like using his own body to satisfy those fantasies, which is okay, we were okay with that, and then it just crossed the line.
Yeah, I mean personally, I'm not okay with him. I'm not okay with the things he was doing because it's just weird for me personally.
It makes you uncomfortable.
I mean, it doesn't make me uncomfortable. It would make me uncomfortable if I were doing it. It's not for me, But I'm not going to pass judgment on someone doing it to.
Teach their own But exactly, if I came home and you had your body covered in.
Uh, talcum powder, baby.
Powder with blue lips, I might have a couple questions looking at myself sexually, and I might have a couple questions. I'm not gonna lie, but again, they would be coming out to each their own. But yeah, at that point, he was not doing any harm, but he crossed the fucking line. And now he's doing harm and now you get to hurt hear about this mole phul.
And now it's not fucking okay.
Okay, So where the heck was it? Oh? Yes, and he had left, Oh yeah, I am right here. He had left, got it, even Holmes, He had left him under his floorboards.
Right, looked like thirty days or something.
No, dude, it was way more. Which he would remain under those floorboards until August eleventh, nineteen seventy nine, which was basically like eight months.
That's what it was. Yep, Like whoa, yeah, I remember my mind being fucking blown because I thought it was something like a week or up to thirty days or something. But yeah, no, eight months. That's that's.
Oh yeah, like it's this is a nasty story. Like honestly, if you guys are having a snack right now, maybe just finish that.
And if it's beef jerky, just oh oh.
Man, Okay, here we go. Okay. So here are some of Dennis's words in response to his first victim. Okay, I eased him into his new bed beneath the floorboards. A week later. I wondered whether his body had changed at all. Or had started to decompose. I disinsurged him and pulled the dirt stained youth up onto the floor. His skin was very dirty. I stripped myself naked and carried him into the bathroom and washed the body. There was particularly no discoloration, and his skin was pale white.
His limbs were more relaxed than when I had put him down there. Oh wow, Yeah, Like the stripped naked part is just kind of like, okay, okay.
He okay, I mean, I'm trying to find a silver lining here.
There's no silver line.
At least he was being careful with his remains, is the only thing I can think of. But no, it's not any kind way. It's in a very disturbing way.
Disturbing. So in August eleven, Dennis would dispose of Stephen's body in a bonfire in the garden he had previously negotiated with the landlords to be exclusively his I'm not entirely sure why it took Dennis this long disposed of Stephen's body, but it did, which brings us to his next victim, Andrew Hope. And this next victim wouldn't be
until October of nineteen seventy nine. So Steven was murdered on December thirtieth, nineteen seventy eight, so it was quite some time really before he would strike again, and some light with this victim with Andrew, he would survive.
Oh really.
So on October eleventh, nineteen seventy nine, Dennis would meet Andrew, a local student from Hong Kong. Meeting him is our dog, just like ground.
I think she's either snoring or she's upset and like growling at something or someone. But I just hear it constantly.
I know me too. It's kind of distracting because I'm like, what is going on back there?
Do you want to pause it and take care of her?
Sure?
Okay, she's a princess, peach. She needs our attention one sec Holy shit, Okay, So she's she's just snarling away overund cold.
I was like, thought something was upsetting her, but holy gosh, okay, so distracting here with these animals, sorry, guys.
And if you hear some snoring in the background.
She's getting old. There's and there's nowhere for them to go in here. Okay. So we had left off Andrew, just a local student from Hong Kong, and Dennis was meeting him or not, or he met him at a Saint Martin's Lane pub. He would lure Andrew back to his flat with the promise of sex like don't go now. Dennis would attempt to strangle Andrew, but somehow he managed
to escape and get out of Dennis's home. He we could say that Andrew was the badass of the day, being that he actually was able to escape this moful But he's a bit of a disappointment afterwards.
Because he doesn't do anything when he.
Does report the incident to police, causing Dennis to be questioned, but in the end decides not to press charges. Fuck, I'm like nobody, But then remember that time, I don't know, you had to be careful, right because being gay was illegal and stuff, right, So true, yeah, but I'm like, oh my gosh, if he'd press charges and stuff like this could have maybe saved people.
But hindsight is twenty twenty, right, I don't give a shit.
Well, all right, clearly they get to save people.
It could have, and it would have been awesome if he did continue those charges, But like you said, he's putting himself in danger if you were to press charges. Now, he's going to be publicly gay.
And sometimes you have to think about yourself. I suppose I get it. I get it.
For example, maybe it wasn't going to be that he's going to be reprimanded legally for being homosexual or anything like that. But maybe it's just strictly his parents would find out. His family would find out, and he didn't want.
That, and he was keeping it a secret, right or something.
So it's such a shame that people have to hide themselves like that or had to. Not that they still don't, but more so.
Yeah, I don't think that they necessarily have to do anymore, but I mean I understand it's probably still hard.
Yeah, well, I mean there are personal circumstances where people do still.
Have to hide themselves. But yeah, and it's.
Sad and I'm sure or it would have been at least something like that on his mind.
So yes, Ben, I get it. What well, I was just like this guy, shit, you need to come forward. But no, I get it. I get it.
It would have been nice, but I'm sure there's a reason, you.
Know, and who knows how long it would have even put Dennis in jail if it did or whatever. Right, So that it might not have even done anything right.
And I mean it could have been just his word against his right, like yeah, who used to say probably nothing could have even potentially even happened of.
It, And Dennis might have been a more like rippertal person too, and yeah, so who knows. Okay, So two months later Dennis was at it again. December third, nineteen seventy nine was the date, and the next victim would not be so lucky. This time it would be twenty three year old Canadian student Oh, who was on a tour of England visiting relatives. His name was Kenneth Oakenden. I think that's how you say his last name, oaken Den Oakenden, something like that.
That's a badass name.
You like it?
I did, especially because I was just watching the Hobbit movie today with Thorin Oakenshield.
Oh Oakenden, I don't know. His name's Kenneth.
It's a badass name. I like it.
So Dennis encountered Kenneth once again at a local pub we Hear, where he learned Kenneth was a tourist and offered to show him around London. They would spend the afternoon together sight seeing and drinking when it started to get dark, and Dennis invited Kenneth back to his health for drinks and dinner, but it would not last long.
Dennis was not able to recall the exact moment he strangled Kenneth, but as Kenneth was listening to music and wearing headphones, Dennis took the headphone chord, dragging Kenneth across the floor with the chord wrapped around his neck and he strangled him. Fuck, like, that's I think a terrible time to just slip. You're into your music, yeah, and then oh. He then poured himself a drink and continued like listening to the music on the headphones fuck, as
he did with Stephen. Dennis then bade Kenneth before placing him in his bed to sleep beside him for the night.
That was some Silence of the Lambs shit right there? Holy fuck?
What do you mean really? I don't think I've watched that?
Oh my god, we are watching Silence of the Lambs this weekend? What the fuck?
I have other shit on my list to watch.
How have you never seen? How am I married to you?
I don't know. Ask yourself that I'm pretty awesome, though, I.
Mean you are, but you've never seen silence of the Lambs, I don't think, so, wow, we've got to change that.
Okay, why does someone get stranged him in there with headphone cord?
Well no, but there's the Buffalo Bill, the main serial killer in it. He's very much so a creeper. He goes for women with soft, supple skin sort of thing because he wants to basically make a skin suit because he wants to be a woman. But he's a man, right, And it's kind.
Of that's not a lotion thing in the well, yes.
It puts a lotion on its skin or else it gets the hose again.
Okay, well I've heard that.
Well yeah, that's that's from this look at me. So and he's got like in his house, he's got like a music thing that he does and he's dancing and stuff. So just like the whole creepy vibe with like the music and the okay, being sensual with like the dead is just full.
He premeditated that in a way, because I don't think that Kenneth was listening to the records with headphones prior to But then Dennis was like, here, put these on. This is like my favorite record like really listen and then like boom done.
Yeah.
The following day, Dennis would buy a Polaroid camera to capture the beauty of Kenneth's perfect and beautiful body. He laid his corpse in suggestive poses to capture on film, before finally laying beside him as he watched TV for several hours.
Wow.
Kenneth would be stored under the floorboards as Stephen was, but on many occasions, Stephen would actually go about disturbing Kenni's corpse. He would move his body around his home to bath him, watch television with and have conversations with as though he was still there and listening.
That's a visual ala really disturbing it.
It's super disturbing. But as Kenneth's body would begin to show signs of rot, he would be retired beneath the floorboards and Dennis would once again have to face his inevitable loneliness. That is until Martin Duffy would enter his life. Un Martin Duffy. Duffy was a sixteen year old gay teenager from Birkenhead, England.
He keeps praying on like the young.
Oh yeah, he likes him really young, like really.
Young, which which is even more of a shame, not necessarily strictly because of their age, but because that they're a lot more susceptible to like these older men who are kind of in the gay world atmosphere or whatever, who kind of know like the way around the bars and stuff, where these new kids are basically just trying to learn and explore themselves. Right.
Well, yeah, and Martin's a runaway, so he did. He was attracted to like homeless people, runaways, and like sex workers, so he would kind of target people that may not be noticed that they're missing. Yeah, so yeah, okay, so yeah, Mike, I said. Martin had run away from home and hitchhiked the four hour distance to London. Dennis would cross paths with him on May seventeenth, nineteen eighty at the train station. Martin had been away from home for four days at
this point and was both exhausted and hungry. Dennis offered him a hot meal and bed for the evening, which Martin greats gratefully accepted, and like, I have trouble when people are too nice, Like I think that would almost make me like run. But Martin was also like almost survival point at that like he needed he had needs.
Right, yeah, exactly, so he.
Almost probably had to accept that offer.
Which is in a situation like that, how could you not accept it?
Honestly, I know, but you shouldn't because people are evil.
People are fucking evil.
They're evil. Okay, So there is good out there, don't get me wrong. There are there are good Okay. I think there's more good than evil. I'm going to say that because like, majority of people aren't going to murder you in your house and when you're in their house.
Well, I hope, yeah, I would hope. Theoretically speaking, though, it's got to be like a perfect balance theoretically because I guess if you look at it in not necessarily like a biblical term of like heaven hell type evil, I'm saying, in like a nature version type of evil. So I'm gonna put it in this way because this is one way that I really understand it, and it's
a really good analogy for hunting. For example, around here, the moose population it goes up and down, so the moose, you know, they have offspring in the population increases, and with the population of increase, and we're going to use moose as the good as their population increases, so does the population of wolves, and we're going to use them as the bad. So as the moose population grows, the wolf population now grows because there's a larger food source.
So now as the wolves are picking off the moose, now their population starts to decrease. And now the wolves are losing their food source and they start to starve to death, so their population decreases. And now as their population decreases, the moose goes up. So it's as constant up and down, up and down. And I would like to think it's a very similar thing with good deeds and bad deeds. If a person sees bad deeds around them lots, maybe a lenst tell him to do some
good and vice versa. Who knows. I don't know.
I just think Dennis is bad. Yeah, I know, I get what you're saying. I totally get where you're saying. But I also think that humankind has more good than bad, is my opinion. I would hope that not every half the people are around running around murdering people and stuff.
Right, Well, I guess it depends on what you Yeah, it depends on where you draw that line, because I mean throwing a paper napkin on the sidewalk. Is that bad?
Yes, exactly, but maybe on some people that wouldn't be bad. But I'm like, don't letter. Okay. So once back at Dennis's place, Martin would eat dinner, have a couple drinks with Dennis, but then begin to nod off and want to head to bed. Falling asleep in Dennis's bed, the team. The team would not know what hit him when Dennis would, like the others, begin to strangle him as he sat on his chest and tighten the twine around his neck until he was unconscious. Finishing the job, he dragged Martin's
body into the kitchen, where he drowned him in the sink. Fuck, that's just such an intense way to just finish it, because can't you just finish it by strangling them too, Or he's just ensuring they're dead. I guess I.
Think I think it's his failsafe. You see bubbles coming up, you can't see necessarily.
Because there'd be like some instance, relready hold them under there for like five minutes, right.
Yeah, just making sure, just making sure.
He would bath Martin's body, which he noted as being the youngest looking body he'd ever seen. Along with bathing his body, he would also groom his victims, being so young. I don't know if Martin in particular would need this, but Dennis wanted his props, as he would call them, to have smooth, shaved torso to conform to his physical idea ideal.
Fuck, he looks so disgusted. I am just that. Note this is the youngest body he's seeing.
That was just yeah, but he's that he already murdered a fourteen year old in this guy sixteen? Oh?
I know, but just that that cress is gross.
Gross.
He's seeking the young looking.
He likes that. He would also go about applying makeup to any obvious blemish on the skin, and the body would usually get dressed in socks and underwear. Once Martin's body was ready, he'd move him around his home, with him sitting him at the kitchen table, has he made dinner? And ate dinner, placing him in his bed, the very bed he was strangled in, where Dennis would then repeatedly kiss, compliment, and caress his dead body.
Wow.
He would also masturbate while sitting on Martin's stomach. I should mention this. I don't know if anyone's wondering this. But along with masturbating, Dennis would also participate a ceranial sex I think is how you said inter I don't know. I was like, what the fuck is that? I had to look it up, which is victims they would basically have like sex with their thigh.
Huh.
So I just can't believe some of the shit that I have to research and say on here.
But that's interesting, okay.
He would insist that he never actually penetrated his victims, apparently freeing their beautiful bodies from the pathetic ritual of commonplace sex.
Interesting because I just assumed that like penetration was occurring.
No. No, he like was adamant that it was not that he would do masturbation, this thigh sex thing. And there was some reports but not all of them, say like world as well. I mean he's still defiling them, oh oh god, yeah, like one hundred percent. Yes, yeah, But then I think he was also like he didn't want to. I don't know, I'm going to go there.
He's still defiling them. He's thinking he's keeping them pure, He's not.
Yeah, And I think he was thinking that they had last longer with these means than the other means. Wow, anyway, fuck on this the case half Oh my gosh, Like it's it's actually because it's like one thing to just know that that your victim was murdered, which is horrific, but then to just like also this one step further of how they were treated after they were murdered and they were just like prancing around this dude's like apartment and stuff, is just like devastating.
Yeah, because they've been murdered and it's not over yet. Yeah, we still have to go through more.
Oh like it's disturbed. It's just really disturbing. Anyway, once the body started showing signs of bloat, it went under the floorboards straight away. And at this point though Dennis was hooked. He's a full born serial killer of course. Yeah. He would begin to kill in greater frequency that year alone, killing five more victims and attempting one other, with only one of those murdered victims ever being able to be identified, and that was twenty six year old William Billy Sutherland.
Billy was originally from Scotland, where he had a girlfriend and a child, but as he was looking for work in London, he found it to be more difficult than expected, and turned to sex work, finding that older men like Dennis were especially eager to pay for a night with a handsome Scottish man. And that's just how his story
would end. He crossed paths with Dennis on August twentieth, and in the unfortunate story of Billy actually pursuing Dennis, he would find himself back at Dennis's house being strangled, as the rest of Dennis's victims had shit. Dennis's main victim profile was men he believed wouldn't be missed. Like Report miss talked about this, all of his victims were found at local pubs or on the street, often young
runaways like Martin, homeless men, or male sex workers. These people were also relatively easy to get back to his house with the offer of food, alcohol, or a place to stay.
Dennis is a piece of shit. Haven't said it yet. He's a piece of shit.
Super shit, like super super super shit.
He's got a big s on his chest drawn and ship. Yeah, just super shit super ship.
Okay, And I don't like this nickname, but I felt like I should mention it in here. Oh, because some people probably have heard that Dennis can be referred to as the kindly Killer. I don't know if you've heard this, in that he often he often offers to help those in need with food or a place to stay, showing kindness, though with the intention to kill.
So it's false kindness.
Though, yeah, like kindly killer.
Yeah, it's it's a way of luring them in with kindness and then turning it. Yeah.
Yeah, so I just like hate, I just hate that nickname. Actually, I don't love it at all.
Well, I mean, he's not kind that's it's an ironic nickname.
M hm.
Yeah, so I have no quarrels with that nickname personally because it's it's an ironic name.
It is ironic. Yeah, but I'm just like, eh, okay, So some reports I read, though, I would say he didn't intend to kill, Well, fuck that, and was adamant that the decision was not made until moments before it actually happens. That but being that he would often go out looking yeah for victims. In my personal opinion, I consider that premeditation and just like the number alone that
he's done. Yeah, right, Like I just yeah, no, I like you're lying, dude, Yeah, oh yeah, no, for sure, but for sure, for sure because bodies of some of the victims could never be a dentis we're going by what Dennis had decided to share or remembers from many of these incidents, and there's many victims he remembers very little about. But come the end of nineteen eighty, the bodies were beginning to accumulate under Dennis's floorboards, which were attracting insects and creating some voul odors.
Oh, I can imagine. I was, I was curious, like how much floor space does this guy fucking have?
Like I honestly couldn't imagine the smells that would be coming from there, Like it's just repulsive.
Oh yeah.
He would place deodorants underneath the floorboards with the bodies and spray what would he spray insecticide? Sorry, twice a day, But obviously it didn't get rid of the odor completely or the presence of bugs. Like his place was just like infested with like flies too, I can imagine.
Yeah, And I mean that's not solving the problem. That's a temporary thing for a couple hours.
Yeah, Like that's why he would do it like numerous times a day.
That's ridiculous.
Yeah, like just disgusting. Which is also like another reason why I don't even understand how he got other victims. But then they were lots of times drunk and stuff. But when you walk in there and just be like, holy shit, I gotta get out of here.
Well, I mean runaways and stuff, right, who've been living on the street potentially.
I guess, I guess. Gosh, that breaks my heart, it does. Okay, So Dennis would start dissecting and removing the bodies of all his victims since December of nineteen seventy nine, a total of six victims.
Okay, wait, hold on, he would like the people already under the floorboards. Yeah, okay, I understand.
Okay, Yeah, it was kind of like mixed reports. I think it's sometimes he would like dissect them of their organs and stuff right away, but I don't know if he did that initially, so as far as I could tell, all have his kills since his first kill of Steven, and unlike Stephen's body, which he had left intact when he burned it, yeah, the others he did start to dissect their remains, so I don't and some I know he didn't do right away, so he was like doing them when he was about to burn them, and I'm
assuming this is a way to be more discreet. Like he had six bodies, right, so he's like having to bring them out to this fire. Like that's a lot of things, Like I don't think you could just bring six bodies up when you live in public.
Yeah, I don't think so, I would assume so.
Okay, but himself recalled how absolutely vile the process of this was. He'd have a drink of whiskey to get his courage up and grab handfuls of salt to brush aside maggots from the remains. Yeah, it sounds right, often vomiting, vomiting as he dissected the bodies, but then also masturbating as he sat alongside the corpse or corpse as a symbolic gesture of saying goodbye to his victims. What yeah, what yeah? Yeah? I said it.
Okay.
How uncomfortable, How uncomfortable?
How the fuck kate? What?
Yeah? Yeah? It was like his way of saying goodbye. He would masturbate one more time after he dissected, like their organs out of their bodies.
So he's literally having to drink whiskey and hold back vomit from what he's.
Doing oh and vomiting, he's not always holding him back his pukan.
And he's like, I'll just rub one more out here.
Yeah what, Yeah that happened. The look on your face.
I am just back baffled by that. Holy shit. Yeah yeah yeah, because I'm I'm the type of person where I need to understand things. Why is a big thing when I'm discussing things, or keep it understand.
He'd also probably okay, like he did it after he had cleaned them up in my opinion, right, so.
But it's still such a paradox.
I know. I don't know if you can get in the head of some of these people.
Dude, I don't think Yeah, I don't.
Wow, okay, because anything he's doing doesn't really like make sense to me.
Well, no, it doesn't make sense to me either.
But I can even understand to keep them in the floor for that long.
Oh, I agree, But I'm just saying from I can understand that someone thinks that way, not that I agree or understand it, but I can from things we discuss, I can understand that a person could not that they would, but could potentially think that. I don't understand how repulsion equals ecstasy. I guess those are very contradictory.
In my mind, it was he was thinking it was like a symbolic thing, And I think, who knows how much time had passed after he'd done the dissection? Right, maybe he like did the dissection, took a little nap, had a snack, and then did it Like I don't know, No one really knows, right, only he knows Jesus.
Oh my god, that is so fucked up. I feel so bad for those victims.
Oh yeah, like I just honestly just I feel like bad for the family members too. I don't know. That would be what I would need to recruit myself, right to change my attitude? A nap and snack?
Okay? Where Nicole food and sleep? She's good from anything?
Well, do you need a drink? Right?
I would need a lot more than a drink to be in that position and feel better.
Okay, anyway, let's move on here, can we move on?
Yes? We can move on? Please, let's do Okay.
To disguise the smell of burning flesh as he burned the remains, Dennis placed a tire on the pile, because then people would be smelling burning rubber, right, and once everything was done burning, he would use a rake to search for recognizable bones, at one point finding an intact skull, which he smashed pieces with his rake. Wow, And then he would just like rake the garden, like this is his garden. Right. Oh, I wasn't going to say anything
about this, but I'm just throwing it in there. So I actually came across an art col where that this house has now actually like been sold and like a young couple lives in there and stuff, and it's like
been completely remodeled and redone and like looked beautiful. But then like the garden, they're like growing vegetables in and stuff, and I don't know, it's just like I don't know if I could get past that, but they had totally gotten past it and just felt that it was perfect and they got like the house at a good price and everything.
Right, I don't know if I could morally grow vegetables in there, flowers or something plants maybe, yeah.
But like something you're eating ain't yeah, because I'm sorry, Like the investigators, I'm sure like went like through a comb through that garden. Right.
Oh, they're gonna pull out bones, but they're not gonna be able to pull out the soil.
Yeah, that they would have missed or something.
Well, just the like the ash. They can't pull out ash from dirt. That ash is the minerals and materials from your body now leaching into the soil. Yeah, which is now leaching into the even if okay, maybe grow pumpkins or Halloween or something. I get that.
Don't consume it, you're consumable. Yeah, I know. I was just like, that is beyond interesting that someone could just get past that. I'd be curious if like many of our listeners could just get past that and just like grow their Yeah, I'm curious.
It'd be some rich soil though, because of the minerals from the decomposition and everything.
Yes, okay, where was I here? Okay. The discussing aftermath of his disposing his kills, you think many may have him thinking that this is not like worth the efforts, like after he's now gone through this process of like getting rid and disposing like this, this has to be it, like he has to be fucking done. But no, but no, no,
he would strike again. Of course he would strike four more times actually while living at Melrose av at this one location, one victim being in January, one being in February, one being in April, and his final victim being on September eighteenth. This final victim at Melrose At, I should say, being Malcolm Barlow, and if you've lost count, this would
be his twelfth victim. Jeez. So in reference to some of these, okay, because I didn't really I'm not going into much detail because lots of those in there were unidentified. So in reference to some of these unidentified victims, Dennis would late like, this is sad. Dennis would later reflect by saying, end of the day, end of the drink, end of a person, floorboards, back carpet replaced, and back to work at Delmark Street. What Yeah, that's what he wrote in this book.
Wow, like wow, what an asshole way to disassociate and just make these people literally nothing to you.
And I think it's like crazy that he was able to just like continue work during this killing spree. Like talk about a double life. He occasionally would call in sick if he needed to deal with one of the bodies, but it did not seem like it crossed over much, which I just cannot comprehend how you could just have that terrible of like a life and then just go to work.
Yeah, how he can be hon Yeah, because there's I don't know if this is a strictly male thing, or if females get this, or if any other genders get this as well, but this is something that I have discussed and know is very real within the male community. It's called post nut syndrome. Okay, okay, it's.
Oh my gosh, where are we going with this?
After relieving oneself, wow, uh, you kind of come back and snap back to yourself and you're just like, wow, did I really just have intercourse with this person? Say, for example, like an X, like you all of a sudden you regret going back to that ex like fuck, Like as soon as you're done on my word, or maybe it's really weird porn that you just rub one out to. I don't know, but as soon as you are done, you're just regretting your choices. I'm surprised he's not getting that post not syndrome.
Hmmm. I'm just trying to think. I mean, we'll go into like his thoughts, but after it's done, like it is almost when I think he's like really into it, right, like the death, and then he now has this companion, like a lot of it's just like his companion. So he's I don't know, it's just a whole thing for him. And then once they raw, like he needs another companion. Yeah, does that make sense?
Right? Yeah? But what I mean by like the post not thing is he's not regretting taking the life.
No, I don't think he is.
Because he's clearly he apparently, as you said, only thought about killing them moments before.
Yeah, which I don't agree, in the heat.
Of, which is very much so like when you're drunken, horny and you call your X situation. Yeah, so it's in the heat of you're doing the action and then you call the X or in his case, kill a fucking human being, and then you get off on it. And then after you get off, he's not like, fuck, I just killed a person.
I think he might have been like that initially. Some reports it did seem like maybe he was like that initially, like holy shit, what did I do? Like because the first killed there was quite a break before he did again. But then he just like, I think the benefits of him doing it outweighed everything, gotcha. So Okay, so we are going to talk a little bit about Malcolm asked.
Twenty three year old Malcolm the victim had a different story in that Dennis would actually call the ambulance for Malcolm after he discovered him slumped against a wall outside his home on September seventeenth, nineteen eighty one.
So sorry, Dennis would call an ambulance from Malcolm.
Yeah, okay, and he thought he was just like a fucking superhero for doing this shit. Of course, Malcolm had told Dennis the medication he was prescribed for his epilepsy had caused his legs to weaken, so Dennis brought him inside and called help for him. But when Malcolm was released from the hospital the following day, he returned to Dennis's flat to thank him for his kindness.
Yeah, there's the mistake, right fucking there.
Dennis invited him in, where he fed him a meal and drinks until Malcolm fell asleep on Dennis's coach at the end of the night. Dennis was not expecting this, So this one, I don't think like was premeditated, but felt he needed to be rid of Malcolm, and just like that, he made the decision to strangle him, storing his body beneath the kitchen sink for.
The morning, felt like he needed to be rid of him.
Yeah, like he had a pest fuck like this dude, Like he came back to him right like, don't come back here, I guess. Yeah. Now this is the point where Dennis would have to prepare to leave Melrose have Summer reports say Dennis was issued in a fiction notice as neighbors were starting to complain of the smell coming from his suite. Other reports say the landlord was wanting to do renovations and asked Dennis to leave. But both of them really could go hand in hand. They're really in.
My opinion is no way the neighbors could not smell that situation going on in his suite. And I honestly gets surprising that even like lasted that long. There no kidding, really like he had neighbors and stuff like great. I feel like you'd have to be like a hermit for able to be doing this.
I mean, people are oblivious generally and will put up with a lot of shit, I.
Think, but that's oblivious, that's extreme. I don't know. I feel like I'm observant and I would know instantly, of course you would, okay either way here I might have been someone's neighbor. That's like, was a murder or something?
Right now? Wow?
Oh no, okay, either way, he would dispose of the bodies as he did previously and move into an addict flat at twenty three d Cranleigh Gardens on October fifth, nineteen eighty one. Being that Dennis's new home was an attic flat with no access to a garden, one would only hope his killing spree would come to an end, and it did for about five months until until March nineteen eighty two, when Dennis would meet twenty three year
old John Howlett while drinking in a nearby pub. John was lured to Dennis's new suite on the promise of a continuing good time and more booze, and that's what happened. They continued to drink and watch a movie. This is when John walked into Dennis's front room, where his bed was located, and fell asleep. One hour later, Dennis attempted to wake John but was unsuccessful, and he sat on the edge of the bed watching him. He decided he
would kill him. Jeez, can you imagine just like sleeping and someone's on the edge of your bread deciding They're gonna kill you. H nightmares. It was quite a struggle. John did not mat Dennis's victim profile in that he was taller, more rugged, and masculine, not the type Dennis
would normally go for. Within the struggle, there were times John was even strangling Dennis, but in the end, though he described the struggle as stressful, where he believed he could get he was like going to get overpowered by John, he was able to get him into an unconscious state and ultimately drowned him in the Bathup the fuck. Dennis would be left with defensive wounds from the struggle for the next week, so he was close.
This case is fucking stressing stress.
He controlled himself for a couple months until May hit, when he encountered Carl Stolder, I think, a twenty one year old gay man, as he drank at the Black Cat Pub. As Dennis and Carl chatted, Dennis would discover Carl was struggling following a failed recent failed relationship. He invited him back to his flat, his attic fat flat, you could you have a stroke, assuring him there was no intention of sex. Carl drank heavily until he passed
out in a sleeping bag. Now, this is like my worst nightmare because I actually hate the feeling of how like restricting sleeping bags are, especially mummy type sleeping mix. I just I just hate it. So this is this nightmare material for me. Carl woke to find himself being strangled inside a now closed sleeping bag, with Dennis whispering stay still. He then vaguely recalled hearing running water before realizing he was immersed and Dennis was attempting to drowned him.
He begged for his life, but Dennis kept submerging him like holy shit, believing he has killed Carl. Dennis had him sitting in his armchair before realizing there was actually a thread of life left. But he actually allowed Carl to regain consciousness Wow why and his strength back over the following days, embracing and explaining to him that he had basically brought him back to life as he had.
Carl had apparently strangled himself on the zipper of the sleeping bag following a nightmare, and then he placed him in cold water to bring him out of shock. What that's what his story was, I don't know. They did end up going their separate ways, with Dennis saying he hoped that they might meet again, like he was freaking lucky. But then Carl did like testify at his trial, so I think that he didn't believe him, but he was
fucking lucky, Holy shit. Like I have no idea. There was actually a few reports that would say that Dennis would sometimes try to like bring people back and then be really upset when he couldn't. So I don't know what the fuck that's about.
Oh, that's weird.
It's like really weird.
The whole fucking case is weird as fuck.
So there would be two more men not so lucky. Archibald Alan aged twenty seven in September of nineteen eighty two, this was his fourteenth victim, and Steven Sinclair, aged twenty in January of nineteen eighty three, his fifteenth victim. Dennis strangled Archibald. I want to call him like Archie Archie as he sat at his kitchen table eating an omelet. That's how this Archibald died, ruined breakfast, no shit, and strangled Stephen, who was a hair and addict, after injecting
himself and falling asleep in Dennis's armchair. But now he was living in an attic suite with no floorboards to hide bodies or no access to a garden. What was he doing with these bodies?
Yeah? Well was he doing with these bodies? Tell us?
Well, what he was doing would an heavily get him caught, So you really want to know. As he did on Melrose ap Dennis was dissecting the bodies. He was placing the various dismembered parts within plastic bags and then storing them in either his wardrobe, tea chest, or within a jawer that was located underneath the tub. He would then dispose very slowly pieces of flesh, internal organs, and smaller bones of the three victims down the toilet.
His toilet's gonna get fucking clogged.
He was placing larger bones out with his garbage. He would also go about boiling the heads of his victims so that the internal contents would evaporate, removing the need to dispose of the brains and the flesh and wah like, that's disgusting, that's disgusting.
It wouldn't evaporate.
I don't know why he was boiling shit.
Well, yeah, it would boil it. It would like you boil it to the point where it just becomes mush.
Yeah, which is disgusting. In the smell would be disgusting, wouldn't it.
We'll just be boiled meat. Ugh, it wouldn't smell pretty, that's for sure, But I mean it's okay.
However, with the accumulation of human remains, the drains would start to become claged. Other tenants were getting angry as they were dealing with backed up sinks and toilets that were unable to flush. On February fourth, nineteen eighty three, Dennis and his neighbors got together to write a letter of complaint that will go to the building landlord, letting them know what was happening and that the situation at
the property was intolerable. Dennis being actively involved in that process, like right in there like a dirty shirt.
Wow, really fucking himself over?
Hey, I don't know, but then if he didn't, he'd fuck himself over too.
Maybe he just shouldn't have killed people.
And flushed them down the toilet, like that's cool.
I meant, just maybe he shouldn't have just killed people.
Well yes, period, but yes, but then also yeah, okay, you know, just just from the get go, don't kill okay, so the letter of complaint would have the landlord send a plumber to the property. Dinah Rod employee Michael Catereron responded to the plumbing complaints on February eighth. As he opened the drain cover the side of the house, he discovered the train was the drain was packed with flesh
like substance and numerous small bones. Michael reported his findings to a supervisor, who arrived at dusk to investigate the situation. Upon his arrival, they agreed they need a better light to investigate, so they would meet again in the morning. Before they left, however, Dennis and another Tendon would discuss the issue with the plumbers and what the unknown substance
could be. When hearing them say how similar the substance appeared to human flesh, Dennis piped in, it looks to me like someone has been flushing down their Kentucky Fried chicken. That's randomly fuck that would look nothing like this.
That sounds like a really awkward like social encounter and the office hallway by the water cooler, when like the one weird employee that you work with, pipes in midway and conversation things that you don't want to respond to and everyone just kind of like conversation over and like, oh yeah.
Goes back to work and then.
Goes back to work. That's what that just reminded me of.
Oh my goodness. Okay, So the following morning, at seven point thirty, the plumbers would arrive again, but upon their arrival this time that drain had cleaned. Who saw that coming obviously seeming extremely suspicious to both men, and then later them discovering more flesh and bones leading from the drain linked to the top of the house. So we
didn't fully clean. They called the police. The leftover remains were sent to be examined, where police revised that they were in fact human, One particular piece concluded to be a human neck or human neckbone that bore a ligature mark fuck. Detectives soon learned that Dennis occupied the top flat of the building where the human remains had been flushed from. Instead of ambushing him, they decided to wait
for him to return home from work. When he did, they introduced themselves and explained the situation to Dennis, asking or with Dennis, asking why the police were so interested in his drains, like why they requested access to his flat and upon entering, immediately noting the foul air of rotting flesh. Dennis questioning further why the police were interested in his drains, to which he was informed the blockage
had been caused by human remains. Initially acting utterly shocked, stating good grief, how awful, the detectives replied with, don't mess about. Where's the rest of the body and that's it. Dennis then calmly omitted where the remainder of the body could be found. Really that easy, that easy, which was
within two plastic bags within his wardrobe. They then asked if there were any other body parts to be found, and Dennis responded saying it was this long story and goes back a long time, but that he'd tell them everything and wants to get it off his chest.
Wow.
He was then arrested, and as he was taken to the police station, he was asked whether the remains in his flat belonged to one or two. As he stared out the window, he replied, fifteen or sixteen since nineteen seventy eight.
Fuck, I bet jaws dropped right there.
Oh. The detective was probably just like shit, Wow, Hey, now that's about all I'm going to say Dennis was actively confessing to his crimes, so of course was sentenced to life in prison. Like I had mentioned, a lot of his victims were not able to be identified, and he did later change his story to say he made up three of the victims and actually had only murdered twelve men. But who's to know for sure, And like, who's to even know if he knows for sure? Yeah, he could have forgotten.
Lost count, or he could have been drunk, or he could have he could have legitimately thought, oh, actually no, I thought I killed that person. But I did give him CPR or something like that, and I did walk away.
Or even blocked it out of his mind.
Really, yeah, he probably doesn't know.
Dennis was initially sentenced to life in prison with a minimum of twenty five years, but that was later replaced by a whole life tariff to ensure he was never to be released from prison good On May twelfth, twenty eighteen, however, he would die from complications of a surgery at the age of seventy two. He was at one point questioned as to whether he had any remorse of his crimes, to which he replied, I wish I could stop but
I couldn't. I had no other thrill or happiness. He also emphasized that he took no pleasure from the act of killing, but worship the art and the act of death.
That's sad. Like I I feel bad for him, Like I feel sorry for him? Is what I don't feel bad for him. I feel sorry for him, you know. Yeah, Like that's that's terrible and he's terrible. Like that's a pretty shitty life.
Yeah, that is so not that this is this case is not cool in any way, but there are three coolish things. His autobiography did get published about a year ago, titled The History of a Drowning Boy, And I think he'd probably actually be like a really interesting read. There's also a series made from this story titled Dez starring David Tennant. Is that how you say his last name? Oh? Yeah, which I heard like nothing of good things about, Like I really won't watch that. We have to watch that
and Dexter. We still haven't watched Dexter.
It's a terrible and apparently silence of the world. Yeah, it's an amazing movie.
Okay, and this is really cool. Many of the items confiscated confiscated from Dennis's Crownley Gardens address are on display. They are to display at a New Scotland's New Scotland Yards Crime Museum, including the stove Dennis boiled, the heads of his final three victims, knives he had used to dissect several of his victims, and the headphones he used to strangle one of his victims, among other things.
Brutal.
I actually think that'd be interesting to see. But then I guess they're kind of profiting from this crime in a sense.
Well, I mean it's a museum. It should be nonprofit.
Yeah, that's true. That's true. It's probably going to something good hopefully. But yeah, that's the story. That's all I got.
That's the story of a very very fucked up individual. Holy shit.
Yeah, that story is wild, Like ay, no kidding that I wanted to get get off of many times, Like I hated it. Researching that was kind of a bitch.
Actually talking about it was fucking horrific. Holy shit.
Yeah, okay, yeah, so there you go. That's one of the craziest ones I feel like out there.
No kidding, Yeah, that was that was a roller coaster, especially that one moment where he's having a sad time being happy, Yeah, I'll just say that, or a happy time being sad. I don't know.
Oh my goodness. Anyway, thank you for listening to the ship show.
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