Christmas is a wonderful time of year, though it seemingly has been taken over with consumerism and the pursuit of spending as much money as possible. At its heart and has a very good meaning and value family, friends and celebrating the relationships we hold so dear. But in the Anderson Home in two thousand and seven, everything that makes Christmas what it is seemed to create a monster as it all came together in one murderous evening.
My name is Ben and I'm Nicole, and you're listening to Wicked and Grim, a true crime podcast. Warning.
The following podcast contains grabbing content and material intended for a mature audience. Listener discretion is advised. How many people out there have been taking advantage of the Boxing Day sales? This is not an ad. I'm just literally curious.
Well seriously going into an ad.
I know That's why I really changed my tone quickly. Have you been taking advantage of the sales? Well, come on down, No, it's just I'm curious. Are you buying yourself the thing you didn't get for Christmas that you really wanted?
I feel like almost the Black Friday sales and that day is more about people purchasing more things. I purchased way more on Black Friday than I did on Boxing Day today.
Black Friday was notoriously lackluster this year, though, Like there was like major headlines about how like shitty Black Fridays. Oh really, well yeah, corporations not actually marking things down. They mark it up and then mark it down to the prices, things like that.
So I think people are thinking back to Black Friday when it was like serious smoking deals all right, and now it's not not quite as much.
Yeah, because they don't do that anymore. Corporations just manipulate it to so they can still make money or more money.
Yeah, but then everybody kind of has sales too, and it's nice to do some Christmas shopping then oh yeah.
So but I think the best sales are probably after Christmas because that's when the stores are legitimately trying to get rid of stock.
Yeah you know what I mean, but more so probably Christmas stock.
Yeah, they didn't sell out all the big screen TVs, so it's like, well, now we're sitting on all these we got to do a Boxing Day sale.
I was thinking, like Christmas decor, well, that wrap and stuff.
You can get those I know, a cold bot of two apparently, and I got some stuff in my Amazon cart, so we're gonna be buying some things apparently.
Like this is a big shock that I didn't tell you about a sixteen dollars two.
I'm disappointed. We hope you guys had an awesome Christmas or holiday or whatever you celebrate or don't celebrate. Regardless, we hope it's been awesome. We have a Christmas themed case for you today, We sure do, so. I do want to shout out Alfredo Mendina over on our Patreon who actually recommended this case to us. Okay, we put out a little thing on Patreon like, hey, does everyone anyone have a good Christmas case that I think we should do this year? And yeah, this was the one
that we chose out of the list. So shout out to Alfredo there. Thank you so much for the recommendation.
They never let us down over there when we're asking for recommendations.
Oh no, they always got our back.
Yeah they really do. Wow. Ye pretty oppressive, which I mean.
I just do want to thank our patrons because they've supported us crazy this year. They they're always there for whenever we need. They're great to talk to you. They got good recommendations, so shout out to our crew over on Patreon if you want to join, links in the description below. If not totally cool, we still are awesome friends regardless, right.
The most awesomest of friends.
Hey, the most awesomest of awesome friends.
Oh okay, well should we dive into this? I'm a bit curious. Well let's do it, because I don't know much about this at all.
So you don't know, okay, Well, this is the story of the Carnation murders aka Carnation massacre ak a Anderson family massacre, Anderson murders. The Carnation Murders is basically what it's generally called. Okay, and this uh starts off in a small town called, drum roll please, Carnation.
Okay, It's like, what could it be? I didn't even think that. It's so funny, that's so oh man?
How did you not figure out what the place would have been called?
I don't know. I just I've been relaxing too much today. My brain's not sharp, apparently.
I mean, we're all well not all of us, I'm sure, but a lot of us are, you know, having a little too much Christmas calories lately. So I know me, I've been indulging in some chocolate too much and my brain isn't working at full capacity, so I cannot blame.
You chocolate or bows.
Yes, you're not wrong. Thanks for calling me out.
I will always call you out well.
Carnation resides in the state of Washington, and it is situated approximately twenty five miles east of Seattle, and it boasts the title of quote city despite encompassing only one point one square miles.
Oh wow. It's a very small place, very small.
It is home to a modest population of just over twenty one hundred people, has a nice rural charm to it, and with the majority of its residents engaging in agricultural pursuits such as farming or small forms of homesteading, the city proudly declares itself one of the most agriculturally productive regions in the north West.
Okay, that's awesome. I love that.
Actually, I mean you can kind of almost picture it at this point.
Kind of yeah.
Yeah.
And they're actually not very.
Far away from us, No they're not really Yeah, No, Pacific Northwest still for sure. I mean we're at the northern tip of it. I think they're more the southern end of it, but still yeah. Now, because of its small size, though, Carnation thrives as a very tight knit community where familiarity among the residents is kind of like the social norm, like everyone kind of knows each other sort of thing feeling. If you go to the grocery store, you're going to run into several people that you'll have
conversations with along the way. Local events were more like a large gathering of friends more than anything. For example, the city's annual Fourth of July and fall harvest celebrations were times when the locals kind of came together like lifelong friends instead of just you know, oh neighbors. So to me, it almost seems like something plucked straight out of a Hallmark movie.
I know.
Actually yes, yeah, So the overall sense of safety in this community. Community's reputation story as a family friendly place played a massive part in Carnation's appeal.
Okay, so it wasn't.
A perfect place. I want to start by saying that by any means, it's not a perfect place. Nowhere is quote perfect right nowhere. But there's isolated incidents of burglary and theft that did occur, and violent crimes were a rarity, if not virtually non existent in this place.
I also am kind of envisioning it to as a place where probably everybody knows your business, I think, so right, Yeah, so small and if everyone's kind of friends and stuff.
Yeah, it's a small little place, little farming, computer community, kind of rural. You kind of go to community events and it's like you know, reunions of friendship and there's not much crime going on. Everyone's just like chilling, having a good time, loving each other and like you say, probably knowing each other's business. Probably a little too much.
Little too much, I.
Imagine, though it is this quaint little place, there's probably some community drama being spewn back and forth. But like I said, no place is perfect. No, And with no place being perfect, this of course leads us to our incident that we are covering today. So when the tranquility of this quaint little city was shattered, it was on Christmas Eve, December twenty fourth of two thousand and seven, and it marked a very large turning point in its history.
So the story focuses on the Anderson family, composed of Judy Anderson, who was sixty one Wayne Anderson, who was sixty. They had shared a happy marriage that had spanned over the course of the past thirty one years. Judy held a position at the US Postal Service, while Wayne worked as an engineer for Boeing. Together they raised three children, Mary, who from this story, as far as I can tell, was not living in the area or out of town.
She's generally not involved, okay, and their other two children, Scott, who was thirty two and Michelle, who was twenty nine. Scott had married his wife named Erica, who was also thirty two, and they had expand their family with two children of their own, Olivia, who was five in Nathan, who was three. Michelle Anderson resided with her boyfriend, Joseph Mcroe Micenroe Sorry, who was also twenty nine, in a trailer situated on the ten acre property owned by Judy
and Wayne. So Michelle lived with her boyfriend on a trailer on her parents' property the ten acre sort of thing.
Right, and did sorry, did the son live there with his family or no?
No?
Okay, Okay, no.
Scott and Erica with their two kids, they had their own place. I'm not too sure where, but they were off the property at their own.
Home still in that town.
Though as far as I'm aware, yes, now, everything in the world of the Anderson family was normal. Christmas was just around the corner. It's Christmas Eve, in fact, and everyone had planned a gathering at Wayne and Judy's home for the evening. The Anderson home was decorated festively and was cozy that afternoon. The Christmas tree lights were blinking and the smell of roast beef dinner was coming out
of the kitchen. Nice Judy sat wrapping gifts and preparation for her grandchildren's arrival, and Wayne sat on the couch relaxing watching some TV. Then everything changed. The relaxed Christmas atmosphere in the Anderson home turned to complete chaos in just a matter of seconds. Michelle and Joseph entered the home, but instead of the expected Merry Christmas with hugs or maybe even presents in their arms, they instead each were
armed with a handgun. Joseph distracted Judy while Michelle shot Wayne, her father. However, in that instant, while Michelle had the gun aimed, she pulled the trigger and the gun jammed. It would have only been a moment between the time when she pulled the trigger and the gun jammed, and then when Joseph turned to shoot Wayne and then Judy,
ultimately killing them both. But I'm sure in that small moment of time it would have felt like an eternity as Wayne watched his own daughter aim a gun at his face, pulled the trigger only four to jam.
What the actual fuck I was expecting this?
Yeah, this is what happened.
Holy shit.
Michelle entered her parents' home on Christmas Eve and murdered them in cold blood. Though technically her gun jammed, it was her boyfriend Joseph who pulled the.
Tree, but still she very much so was involved and had the intention. Wow.
So to Joseph and Michelle, however, this instant would not have felt like forever. It seemed like it was almost the opposite, as they were so cold and didn't waste any time and immediately began to clean the room and dispose of Michelle's parents' bodies. Together, they dragged them both Judy and Wayne into the backyard to put them in
a shed behind the house. They closed the door, went back inside, and once everything was cleaned up and taken care of, they then sat down and waited for the arrival of Michelle's brother, Scott.
Oh my gosh.
Wow, Okay, this is quite the Christmas Eve.
Hey, no shit, because these are the ones that lived on the property, right correct, Holy shit. I was not thinking it was going to be an internal affair.
No, you're thinking it was going to be some burglar event.
Yeah, something going yeah, or they pissed someone off or something. But I was not expecting this to be like in the family. Wow.
Now, this is one hundred percent within the family, one hundred percent premeditated. And I mean you can't really say much else with that. I mean, it's pretty straightforward now that her came in and killed her parents.
I'm just scared shitless about the brother arriving. Holy shit. And that would have been a big mess to clean up too, It would have.
Been it would have been.
Now.
After about an hour of them waiting, her brother arrived. Nothing seemed wrong at first. Her brother entered the home with his family, and they began to get comfortable, expecting Wayne and Judy to enter the room at any moment, wishing everyone to marry Christmas. But instead, though, that's when Shell and Joseph appeared and Michelle opened fire on her
brother Scott, shooting him a total of four times. His wife, Erica, managed to make a mad dash for the phone and called nine to one one around five pm and was heard screaming on the phone quoting not the kids, but before authorities were able to find out anything else on what was going on, the phone went dead.
Oh my gosh, because they wouldn't have probably had the technology today where they could just track the phone. I'm assuming, I don't know.
Yeah, they definitely did. Oh this is two thousand and seven. Oh okay, yeah, they had Star six nine or tracking the phone. I mean all this sort of stuff, you name it.
Okay, So that's amazing that she was able to.
Call then, yes, definitely. Michelle of course then shot Erica twice and she would have more, but she ran out of bullets, and because of this, she told Joseph he needs to be the one to shoot the kids because she can't. So these kids are there currently screaming and clinging to their now deceased mother Erica on the floor, and Joseph obliged and does.
What Michelle says, Holy fuck.
With a total of fourteen bullets. Michelle Anderson and Joseph McEnroe wiped out all six of the Anderson family members within the home.
I cannot even believe this. This is so disgusting it and I need some answers here. This is unbelievable. Wow. Wow.
We'll get to kind of the quote answers here in a little bit, of course, we got some more to talk about before you do. But researching this was tough. It's hard to not picture yourself in this position, being like, okay,
losing my entire family in this evening. Because whether you're sitting here thinking you're the parents and a child of mine is doing this, or I'm a sibling and a sibling is doing this, or I'm the sibling out of town and getting the news of this happening to the rest of my family, or this is my kids, whatever perspective you're putting yourself in, it's gut wrenching to say the least.
And just why, like that just doesn't make any sense.
Well, we'll touch on why here in a little bit, because there is a why now. In response to the nine one one call, just as you were saying, because hey,
can't they track the phone? Of course they can. Nine one one immediately was able to track the phone they knew where it was coming from, and authorities were able to dispatch to the Anderson property, but Michelle knew that the police were likely to come and had already locked the gate to the property, and the police didn't have any other option but to turn around and retreat, not realizing the carnage that was actually taking place behind the locked gate.
Oh, because so they couldn't just enter kind of thing.
You don't have a warrant.
They had no idea.
Really, they have nothing at this point. It's basically a wellness check, right, and you can't Okay, you need I think you need reason to enter, and I don't think they had reason to enter technically.
I kind of feel like they did, though. If someone was screaming on the phone.
I listened to that nine on one call, it's kind of hard to hear Erica actually screaming and quoting not the kids. It's kind of almost like it's in the background. You just kind of hear like a bit of a scream and that or something. Then it just goes dead. It could have been a prank call.
You don't know, really, Yeah, dang.
So police can't exactly just go busting down a door only to learn that, Hey, your six year old just phone the police because you told them to clean your room. Yeah, or you butt dialed nine one one and you're watching a movie that happens to have someone screaming.
Not the kids, rightang, Okay.
So the police didn't have any other anything to do or anything they could do, but just okay.
But I mean too at that point of arriving, that's been too late too.
I'm sure, oh definitely everyone would have been dead by that point anyways, because seconds after that nine on one call was placed and the phone was ended, everyone else was shot in it. Recut it just the same. So, unfortunately, it wouldn't be until postal workers returned to work on December twenty sixth, which is today, that the horrific scene was discovered. So we are sitting here in December twenty sixth, twenty twenty three, when this occurred December twenty sixth, two
thousand and seven, so this is the anniversary date. So worker Linda Thielli reported to work that morning, and she was surprised that her best friend, Judy Anderson, didn't show up for her shift. Now I remember the mother of the family. Judy did work as a US postal worker right yep. So Lynda knew something wasn't right, and she was convinced that something was seriously wrong, so she actually left and made her way to Judy's house to check in on her personally an amazing friend, no kidding, and
she arrived there shortly after eight am. When she got there, the gate to the driveway was still closed and locked, so she got out of her car, walked around it, and approached the house by foot. She walked up to the front door and knocked, but there was no answer. So she tried the front door and it was open.
It was locked, okay, so she.
Opens the door and takes a look inside.
Shit.
As she opens the door a bit wider, she was met with a very gruesome scene of the murders that, of course occurred on Christmas Eve. She immediately saw the body of Scott Anderson lying motionless in the floor. At first, she thought that he had succumbed to potential carbon monoxide poisoning, but a moment later she realized he instead had been shot in the head. Not far from Scott laid the body of Erica and three year old Nathan, who had
been shot as well. Now initially She had actually confused Erica for her friend Judy as she didn't want to really look at the body.
Well what a horrifying scene.
Yeah, But regardless, Linda panicked and she knew she needed to call nine one one, and she didn't have her cell phone on her, so she rushed into the residence and she used the phone in Judy and Wayne's bedroom and called from their landline.
I'm almost surprised. I kind of expected her to go in and it potentially just been like cleaned up.
Yeah, you think so.
That was what I was sort of expecting.
Actually, I wasn't able to really figure out why it wasn't cleaned up, But I kind of agree with you. During my research, I was kind of questioning that too, like why did they just hey leave it?
Well, I mean, I guess they cleaned up the parents so that they could still lure Scott in.
Right, definitely, And that was brought up in the court case. Actually they asked like, hey, why was that the case? There wasn't really an answer either, I guess, but that is the gist of it is. Yeah, they were trying to lure in, making sure that they got them in the home without them fleeing or anything.
Yeah.
So the phone call between Linda and the operator lasted around thirty minutes. Linda told the operator that Judy and Wayne's daughter, Michelle, lived on the property in a mobile home, and Michelle had been upset with Judy and Wayne over money.
Linda stated that she was worried that Michelle may have actually been involved in the killings, and to quote her, she said, quote the gate is locked, which makes me wonder if her daughter did it, which is scary because then I might be up here with a murderer.
Oh my gosh. Because yeah, that she could have seen this car parked right at the gate, yep, and gone and investigated.
Yeah, maybe she's even in the house right then, in there, Holy shit. So didn't run. She stayed on that phone with the operator for like I said, approximately thirty minutes, knowing a murderer could be anywhere near her. So props to her for that.
Well yeah, and I mean for surprise that she did that. She didn't flee and then like phone for help. Yeah, that's kind of amazing.
So she stuck it out. She checked on her friend with not a single hesitation. She knew something was wrong and drove there herself ditching work. Yeah, she made sure that she was there on the phone with the operator, potentially with a murderer around, and she didn't leave. So Linda is one hundred and ten percent our badass of the day.
Well yeah, and just like a friend that I feel like everyone needs.
Definitely, if you have a Linda in your life, hold them close, no kidding. Police would arrive around nine to thirty am, approximately half an hour after Linda, hence the thirty minute operator call. They first fan Scott, Erica and Nathan, and after a closer inspection, they found the young Olivia as well, who was behind her mother.
Oh jeez, I thought maybe she might have been alive.
Okay, unfortunately no. All four had been shot in the head and they began combing the house for evidence, and when officers ventured outside to the shed, the bodies of June and Wayne Anderson were also discovered. Around three hours after the police arrived at the investigation was underway, Michelle and Joseph pulled up to the Anderson residence house.
Just pulled the fuck up. Yeah, okay.
They didn't seem phased by the police car surrounding the property, nor did they really ask if you know, Michelle's parents were okay, which of course raised officers suspicions right away, not that they weren't already suspicious of them, but uh yeah, Michelle and Joseph they just kind of simply walked up to the house as the investigation was unfolding, as if like, Hey, what's going on?
What the nerve? Yeah, I thought for sure they would have fled or something like the pieces of shit they are.
Well, they kind of did. Like the authorities right away, or they're asking them, they're questioning them about what's going on, right Yeah, so they're questioning them, and Joseph and Michelle said that they had actually been on their way to Las Vegas to get married, but then they got lost and so they turned around to come home. And Michelle told the detectives that the last time she and Joseph had seen her parents was on Christmas Eve before they went to Las Vegas, which we of course know is
not a complete lie. Last time they did see them, in fact, was Christmas Eve. However, the whole Las Vegas thing was somewhat of a lie.
Nothing like going in mayor in the person that just killed your fucking family, right, Gosh, that's disturbing. Now.
I'm not sure if their real intention was to go to Las Vegas to actually get married, but they were in fact fleeing to Las Vegas, and along the way they thought, you know what, they're just going to turn around back home, and there's gonna pretend to be innocent, like, oh what happened, okay, and they'll be like, oh yeah, they'll least suspect like us, you know, the family who returned and up to the murder scene as they're like this is going on. Maybe they're even intending to go
up and find the bodies and call police. So their course of action was basically to try and hide in plain sight.
Okay, I mean, I don't know. That seems stupid to me, But also.
I don't know, it seems stupid to me too, because I mean, honestly, what's like rule number one of any sort of murder investigation, the spouse, the family, like they're suspect number one people. So I mean, of course their plan didn't go as planned. When detectives asked Michelle why she thought authorities were at the house, like, he's like, why do you think we're here? Apparently, she broke down quote it's not Joe's fault, it's all mine. As soon as I shot the gun, I felt so bad, Like,
what the hell have I done? I'm a monster?
Okay, So her hiding it sure as hell didn't last long at all.
No, she immediately started spilling it and confessing.
Which I'm glad for. She was guilty as fuck.
Same and as far as I can tell, she didn't really show any remorse up until this point. I don't think there was any real conversation between her and Joseph about, you know, speaking the truth confessing. She just in that instant, and as far as I'm concerned, from my perspective, it seems more out of fear than anything. When she's confronted, why do you think we're here? Shit, I'm gonna get caught. I'm gonna spill it. Yeah, you know.
Well, and then her boyfriend was probably a bit shocked too.
Probably now. The detective asked Michelle why the children had been killed, and Michelle explained that they were going to be scarred for life after seeing what happened to their parents, so they decided to kill them and save their life ahead from what they witnessed.
Okay, well, I mean yes, they would be scarred for life. But that is terrible.
Yeah, that doesn't excuse you.
From killing them, not even in the last No.
The questioning, of course, continued, and she was asked why she felt the need to wipe out her family. She told detectives that she was quote tired of everybody stepping on her. She claimed that her brother Scott owed her forty grand and would not pay her back, and that her parents had begun pressing her about paying rent for living on the property in the mobile home after she and Joseph had already lived there for a year free of charge. Now it became clear to detectives that money was,
of course the heart of this crime. She killed her family because of money, and.
Not even really that much money.
Not really.
I don't know if I would believe that the brother owes her forty grand.
Yeah, I couldn't find any sort of concrete evidence on that claim. But even if we break it down to say, yes he did, oh forty grand. Yes, you are being charged rent, pay your rent, you got to live there for free for a year. I'm pretty sure everyone out there right now would love to have a free year of mortgage or rent or anything like that.
Totally why not. Yeah.
Now, when questioned about how long she had been planning the murders, Michelle replied that she had just decided two weeks ago that she would kill her family and asked Joseph to help her. So two weeks of premeditation. It wasn't like she had been drinking that night or just sudden anger over a conversation that she grabbed a gun and went over there. No, she premeditated this for two fucking weeks.
Hum, and her boyfriend was just like, sure, I.
Guess so yeah, gosh. So, after the confession, which went on for nearly two hours with details on who killed who, how it happened, the two were arrested on the spot, and Michelle led detectives to where she and Joseph had discarded the two guns. I'm probably gonna mispronounce this, but I'm gonna try stilanguish river nearby, So they threw the two guns in a river. Now, on December twenty eighth, two thousand and seven, Michelle and Joseph were each charged
with six counts of aggravated murder. Now, though I mentioned earlier how Michelle and Joseph like kind of in the heat of their actions. They were quite cold. I do think it's important to tell how remorseful Michelle seems to be. In June of two thousand and eight, during a jailhouse interview with the Seattle Time, she confessed to the murders once again to the journalism. A journalist there we go and said this quote, I want the most severe punishment,
which would be the death penalty. I think if I kill a bunch of people, I'm not sure I deserve to live. I want to waive my trial. So she's at least clearly remorseful. She maybe I don't know. It's very hard to judge someone just on the base of their actions and what they do after the fact. But she is willing to waive her trial. She is willing to accept the death penalty. That to me at least shows somewhat remorse. Someone.
Oh, I know, I doesn't excuse the act. I get what you're saying, but for some reason, it's not making me feel any better right now.
No, no, no, don't get me wrong. Doesn't excuse it.
No, but it is good because there are people that do terrible things and then they're in jail forever whatever years, and they still don't confess or they don't give a shit what they did. So I mean it is better that she's this way. But gosh a little late here, Oh.
Yeah, I mean it's the second she tried to pull the trigger and the gun jammed. Though it's not too late. Then it was like, in that instant, it's things are changed, you know. Yeah, you can only do so much even from that. But then seconds later when the gun was pulled and she and Joseph continued, you can't go back from.
That, well, I mean even cleaning up the parents' bodies, yeah, and waiting for the brother that would have and that was like an hour span or whatever.
Right, yeah, well, and look at it this way. She had a second chance. It's almost as if there was a higher power or someone or something jamming that gun, saying don't do this, and she used her second chance to tell Joseph kill them.
Right, you're right. Actually she could have taken that as okay, shit, like what am I doing?
It's not too late in that instant, you can't change what you're about to do, but you can change what you are doing. Yeah, I'm sure the relationship between her and her father would never.
Be the same ever, Oh, I don't know if you could ever fix something like that.
But at least her family would still be there. Yeah, she and Joseph wouldn't be murderers.
Wow, of kids and everything.
Jeez. In October of two thousand and eight, King Prosecutor Dan Staatenberg said that he would seek the death penalty for Michelle and Joseph. However, this received significant pushback from Judge Jeffrey Ramsdell, who ruled against it. Governor of Washington Jay Insley at the time also said that no one would be executed while he was in office. The process, unfortunately, was drawn on for a very significant time, which ultimately
costs the taxpayers millions in the process. It would finally be on September fifth of twenty thirteen that the Washington State Supreme Court overturned Judge Ramsdell's ruling regarding the death penalty and ordered that the trials of Michelle and Joseph go ahead. They were to be tried separately, so the
prosecutors were in fact seeking death penalty okay. On January twentieth, twenty fifteen, Joseph was escorted to King's County Superior Court in Seattle for his trial prosecutor Scott O'Toole was pushing the death penalty, as I mentioned, while the defense attorney argued that Joseph was mentally ill and had been coerced and manipulated into killing the family by Michelle Anderson. Joseph
showed little emotion through most of the trial. This changed, however, when he took the stand on April third of twenty fifteen. He was barely able to string sentences together due to being so heavily medicated with anti anxiety and antidepressants. And I watched some of his trial stuff when he's actually on the stand, it is very odd footage. He's very weird up on that stand. At one point he even began laughing hysterically when describing the look on Judy Anderson's
face when he shot her. Really, he put his arms over his head and began rocking back and forth uncontrollably as well.
Huh okay.
So he claimed that Michelle had manipulated him and that he felt he had no choice but to participate in the killings. Prosecutors, however, felt that he played an equal role. At one point, on being questioned by the prosecutor o' tool Joseph was asked, quote, were you excited about it or were you not, to which he replied quote absolutely not. It was also pointed out that Michelle Anderson could not load the guns she didn't know how, so Joseph did
it for her, and he had also brought extra bullets. Quote. I think we've established none of these murders would have happened without you, according to the prosecutor, to which Joseph agreed, quote unfortunately that is completely true. Yes, so whether he was coerced or not, it could not have occurred with him without him.
Okay, I don't even know what to think right now, because it's so hard to just kind of like judge the situation, because was she manipulating him, like does he is he not of like sound mind but is not of sound mind? Or I don't know. It's just so weird. You know, this is making my head think a little bit too hard.
Well, it's always hard to get in the head of someone like this, and it really makes you second guess whatever your thoughts could be when you're dealing with a person who could have potentially been coerced or manipulated, and more so, if this is a relationship where he is kind of being puppeted by Michelle. You kind of got to take a step back and say, Okay, if that is the case, how much of this is his own action? And unfortunately we just don't know, and I don't think
we'd ever be able to know. But what we do know is the extent that he played a role in it, would he have like, at what point could he have taken himself out of there? If he's sitting here loading the guns for her, maybe that's the moment where he says, Okay, I have the power. She doesn't have guns. I have guns. So I don't think his safety was really being threatened. I could be wrong, but from my perspective, he has the weapons, so I don't think there's any harm being
threatened against him. If he's got these guns, loading the bullets, I think he has the power in my opinion. Now that's not to say he's not being manipulated mentally. I'm sure he could. Maybe she's holding something above him. Maybe it's blackmail, or maybe even breaks down. Maybe she's like, hey, you're not gonna get laid tonight. Maybe it's something mundane like that. I don't know, but that doesn't excuse the fact that he had the power and he could have said no.
Yeah, yeah, at some point. I mean, even when in this in the act, when she's like, you know, yelling at him to pull the trigger or whatever, could have been another moment, right, Like, there's so many her.
Gun jammed, she had a jammed gun, an inoperable gun. His was working.
Yeah, this is just arable.
So again, he held the power, not her.
In a lot of instances he did, for sure.
So it's really hard to judge. But is he a complete victim, certainly not. He certainly played at least an equal role in my opinion. Oh yeah, maybe not complete equal. I would say at very at least like forty percent. He killed, he loaded the guns, he was there, he acted. He may planned this with her, you know, maybe she manipulated him, which puts a little more onus on her. But he had many options to reach out for help. He's in a house with the two people they're about
to kill. She does not have a weapon. He does. Yeah, in that moment, he has people right there to help him as well. If he helped them, yep, but he didn't.
Yeah.
Again, it's so hard to judge these situations. Who knows what was going on. That's strictly just my opinion. But either way, in the Washington state, for the jury to recommend the death penalty, all all twelve jurors must be in favor. In the case of Joseph, eight jurors ruled in favor of sentencing to death while four did not.
This meant the death penalty was not an option. So on March twenty fifth, twenty fifteen, the juror found Joseph McEnroe guilty of six accounts of aggravated first degree murder. On May thirteenth, twenty fifteen, he was sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole, so he will
be in prison for life, okay. As a result of the outcome of Joseph's trial, King County Prosecutor Dad Strattenberg announced that Michelle Anderson would not face the death penalty either, and to quote him to proceed with the death penalty against defendant Anderson in light of the sentence imposing on the defendant mecenroe would not be in the interest of justice, So it would basically be unfair if one got the death penalty and the other did not. It would not
be justice. So on January twenty fifth of twenty sixteen, Michelle's trial began. In his opening statement, prosecutor O'Toole stated that, quote the motive for these murders is pure, unadulterated greed, referring to the interview in which she brought up money more than a total of apparently thirty five times in her explanation as to why she killed her family.
Oh, that is not a reason.
Not a reason whatsoever, but it was her reason. Holy shit, doesn't mean it's okay, But that was her reason.
Thirty five times. She brought that up.
Thirty five times in her explanation. Yes, so there was a tape of her confession that and it sent mixed messages to the jury as she called herself quote a monster and quote a bad person for murdering her family. Then would also say her mother, father, and brother had abused her for over or over the course of years. It was also revealed during the trial le that Michelle reportedly hated her sister in law, Erica, because she felt that Erica had pushed out her brother from her life.
Quoting the prosecutor, he said, quote Erica was the person that Michelle Anderson truly, truly hated. So there's a lot of mixed things going on with her confession money. Apparently they abused her and that her sister in law took her brother out of her life. But I don't think she would be too upset with that if her brother was abusing her, like, yeah.
You wouldn't think that she would want him in her life.
Yeah. So there was a lot of mixed things going on that certainly confused the jury. But on March fourth of twenty sixteen, Michelle Anderson, like Joseph McEnroe, was convicted of six accounts of aggravated murder in the first degree, and on April twenty first, she was sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole.
Okay, just like him, like him.
Now, Michelle's older sister, Mary, who is her only surviving immediate family member, had this to say to Michelle.
Okay, I was going to ask about Mary. Holy shit.
To quote her quote, it kills me. I loved you so much. Just know they loved you.
Oh that gave me goose bumps instantly.
Yeah, oh wow. Not only using the word loved for the family deceased, but using the word loved for herself currently. Yeah, so that is the Carnation murders.
Could you imagine being Mary hey wo and like just getting that call saying that six family members are deceased, which would be a call and a half in itself, but then that they were deceased at the hands of your sister and her boyfriend. Yeah, I don't know. I think I would lose my mind from that call, like that is that is just too much.
Yeah, especially around that time of year. I can only imagine she was probably waiting for maybe a Christmas call. She probably tried to call her family for Christmas where she married Christmas, but couldn't get through. She was probably wondering what's going on? And then Yeah, I would have heard the news very shortly.
After yikes, holy shit. And also that sure took a long time. Yeah, and so the fact that that also costs millions of dollars to get these two huh into prison for life is another thing that's kind of disgusting to me.
It really is, But I mean that's kind.
Of the system to make it is that it is. Yeah, I mean, wow, that is a story and a half.
So here we are, sixteen years later to the day when this horrendous act was discovered.
Huh, I have not heard of this.
No, I have heard of this. I come across this one a couple times, but I forgot about it for I don't know, probably a good year here until Yeah, it was mentioned again in Patreon.
And I mean, like we kind of have said, we don't really know, but just like listening to the story, it seemed like it was just like such a nice family. Like she's making food and wants all our family to come over, and wrapping gifts that she went and picked out, and like allowing a kid a kid to live on the property, and oh my gosh, huh, Like you.
Said, though we don't know, maybe the family was abusive.
I know, we don't know.
That's not an excuse to kill them. That's not an excuse to kill anyone. Money is at an excuse to kill anyone. Money is money. It doesn't dictate your life as much as you think. I know, money makes the world spend, but it's not worth a life.
But I also find it a bit hard to believe that if it was, like if they were all abusive, and then but she's living on the property, you think that she just want nothing to do with them. Yeah, I don't know forrick hole is shit w a story.
What we do know is that she did, in that instant have a second chance mm hmm, and she used that second chance to go through with it. She killed her family along with Joseph helping her. Whether she was manipulating him, the family abusing her, it's all up for debate. The fact remains the family was murdered unnecessarily.
Yeah, I mean, but honestly, when you're in that heat of the moment and you've made this decision, I can't I feel like not very many people would take that as a signal shit, like I'm not going to do this. You care about that when people are say kid emitting suicide, but not necessarily like killing their family or own people.
But that's exactly what that was. It was a second chance. A lot of people, when they pull that trigger, there is no going back. There is. It's done. She pulled that trigger and there was an opportunity to go back.
Yeah.
How how many people out there who have pulled the trigger? Maybe even say it's a war veteran who's defending a country something like that, that's going to affect them. I'm sure many people out there after the second that trigger was pulled and a life was taken, they wish they could take it back.
Yeah, what a buzzkill.
Yeah, no, kidding, a buzzkill of.
An episode for Christmas.
Hopefully you guys are having a merry Christmas, spending good time with your family. Hopefully this is just putting the cherry on top of your holidays.
I mean that would be a buzzkill at any moment, but I feel like shit like this during the holidays. It does kind of add to it, you know, it makes it a bit worse.
Yeah, So no, you're right, You're definitely right. Thank you guys for being here though, thank you for listening. Sorry came out a little bit late today. We did take a little bit of extra time enjoying our Christmas time with our family, so we had to do a bit more research and recording a little bit prolonged, but we are still getting this episode out today. Hopefully you are having a great Christmas, Boxing Day holiday all the above.
If you want to check out our social links all down below, you can join Patreon, where maybe you can get a chance to recommend a case to directly us and we can be doing a case like this because hey, you told us to never know. If not, you're here. We appreciate it. You're awesome, You're wicked.
Yeah yeah, ditt oh, just kidding. Happy holidays, We're all said. Honestly, Happy holidays. I hope everyone's kind of getting a chance to sit back, reflect and enjoy, you know, enjoy their life here. Yeah tomorrow, wait, promise to anyone.
No it's not. And if you're ever given a second chance, maybe maybe reflect on that for a moment.
Well done, ben So, until next time, stay wicked.