Hello, and welcome to the Why I Knit podcast. My name is Dr. Mia Hobbs and I'm a clinical psychologist who's passionate about knitting and its benefits for our mental health. Each week on the podcast, I interview a different knitter about why they knit and how it benefits their mental well being. This week on the podcast, I'm talking to Betsan Corkhill. Betson is a former physiotherapist and lifestyle coach. She's an expert in therapeutic knitting, and also
the author of Knit for Health and Wellness. You can find links to the Stitch links Website and any of the yarns and patterns we discuss in the show notes. Hi Betsan welcome to the podcast.
Thank you. Thank you for having me.
It's a pleasure. I'm really pleased to be able to talk to the kind of one of the founders of therapeutic knitting. I would love to start with asking where your story with knitting began.
Well, my mother told me to knit when I was seven. I can remember being intensely frustrated at the time because I immediately wanted a jumper. So I didn't then knit for quite some time. And it actually until I was expecting my first child, and then I knitted quite a few things, and I knitted the christening shawl. And then I had another big gap.
And I went back to it when I started this project, the research into the meditative creative and social benefits of knitting because I because I'm really firm believer in practising what I preach, and now I do it more or less every day.
Yeah. And did the project come about first rather than you weren't knitting at the time? You started because of the project?
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's a it's quite a long, it's, it's, I think it's quite an interesting story, how I got into it, actually, because I was a I was working as a physiotherapist, a community physiotherapist, and I was asked by GPs to go into people's homes for people who weren't able to get to the physiotherapy department for some reason. So it could be a whole range of reasons across a whole range of
age groups. And I soon realised that, you know, call her Mrs. Smith, Mrs. Smith wasn't getting out of her chair, because she had no reason to get out of her chair, she had absolutely nothing in the day, no purpose, nothing she was successful at. And I wasn't at that you know, the system didn't allow me to, to, to give the time and the treatment that that person needed. And I was allowed to go in three times maybe to change
somebody's whole lifestyle. So I got really frustrated and I, I left and I became a freelance production editor for a range magazines, and ended up ended up on a range of craft and across the whole, the whole craft portfolio. And I did a three, six month stint on the craft portfolio, one of my jobs was to sort the letters pages. And that entailed reading all the letters that came into the office every day, and they literally got
sacks full of letters every day. And I realised that most of them are talking about the therapeutic benefit of their craft, but particularly knitting. And I mentioned it to the editor of one of the knitting magazines? And she said, Oh, yes, I we know that something really important here. We really don't know what it what it is. We've got a filing cabinet full of letters there. Would you like to go read them?
And they were literally 1000s of letters because they just run a competition about what is it you find, you know, beneficial about knitting. And it was the first time that somebody with a medical background had read these letters. And it was really
striking. They were really profound life stories. You know, I remember I remember very vividly the first letter I picked up was from a 14 year old girl who had written I don't have to take my pain medication when I knit, I am often in hospital and I don't so I don't have to take that medication when I knit. It helps me and the second was from a lady who tried to commit suicide and her husband had taken her in a simple knitting project into hospital out of desperation,
really to try and get her interested in something. And she said now, now I look forward to my next project. And I look forward to tomorrow. And it changed her life. So there were those kinds of profound stories and I thought wow there's something really important here
that gave me goosebumps to hear that. Yeah. And to think they were sitting in a filing cabinet until you came along.
yes. And so my first thought was, I wonder if this wonder if this could help Mrs. Smith who sits in her armchair said to, you know, in our armchair to enable her to be successful at something too. So using it as a springboard to, to get interested in the world in the world, you know, open up the
world and get interested in doing other things. And then it then as more I started to research it, because I wanted to know, I think the striking things is there were large numbers of people saying very, very similar things, as I'm sure you've discovered. And I wanted to know, why that was happening, what was happening, and if there was any science behind it, because you know, there had to be something happening within them biologically and chemically, for them to feel
better. And so I wanted to know, what, what what was happening. So that's how it started. And the more I researched more, I realised how you know how important it was. So then I started thinking about developing the idea of therapeutic knitting which, and for me, I would, I would describe therapeutic knitting as a combination of knitting and knowledge. So enhancing that, you know, knitting has its benefits, but you can learn how to enhance those benefits. And
you can have knowledge about how to do that. But also, you know, people who are fit and well can do that. But also, if you've got a medical condition, you can learn about that condition and learn how to use knitting to manage the symptoms, further enhance those benefits. So that's where that's where it all started. So I approached the pain clinic here in Bath, and asked if they'd be interested in setting up a group. I didn't hear back from them for about six months. So I thought, well,
you know, that's it. And then six months later, I said, well, Yeah. Still in there somewhere. they said, Yeah, we'd be quite interested. And that was back in 2006. So I started up, I started a therapeutic knitting group in a pain clinic. And that really got me interested in the subject of pain. So since then, I've specialised in helping working with people with long term pain. And I thought well, ooh help i'm , you know how I'm gonna have to run the knitting group. In two
weeks time, I better get back to knitting. Learning how to knit again. Of course, once you've learned to you never forget it. Yes. So then I got back to doing it myself. I do. I do really believe in practising what I preach. I don't think you can advise people to do things if you're not doing it yourself. Really?
Yeah. So is that do you keep doing it in your personal life for yourself?
Yes, yes. Yeah.
And do you feel like you've noticed those therapeutic benefits even on any level for you for your life? Are there times when you feel like you turn to the knitting more?
Oh, yes, absolutely. It's, it's, you know, I use it as a as a way of managing stress on more or less daily basis and bringing that especially recently, I think people have needed to keep those those you know, sort of stress systems. rebalance them because it's been stressful. In the last 20 months for everybody,
yeah, during COVID
Yeah, so I think it's become more important for people to incorporate those things into into their daily lives.
Yeah, I have to say I also felt really lucky to have a hobby, something I love doing that I could still do in COVID that it wasn't something you know, my main hobby was something that wasn't allowed because of restrictions. Yeah. Yeah. Are there particular things you enjoy knitting at the moment?
Well, I have a I have different projects going and I've always advised people to have a range of different projects on the go according to the mood they're in on the day but but also maybe according to mood they would like to move themselves into because you go into a different mind state with with whatever project you're on. So I have I will have an easy one and or a more or a more challenging one on the go and my focus has changed actually you know from from when I was a
child at seven to becoming really frustrated not being able to get an end product now it's more it's changed in that I can I can knit something that will take a year to finish and and be quite happy with that and just do it for the process. Yeah, not for not for that end product. The end product when it comes is extra specially nice. I spent the whole of the first lockdown knitting a I knitted we had our first grandchild arrived in the first lock bit very beginning of the First lockdown
congratulations
we weren't allowed to see him. Oh, because they live quite a quite they live three hour drive away. So I decided right I'll knit a cot blanket as a as a hug from us because we couldn't give him a physical hug. And our daughter who's living with us at the time said, Oh, I love that, would you make me one only I want to double bed size. So I spent the whole of the first lockdown knitting this double bed. Very easy sort of garter stitch, but with a slightly zigzag, you
know, sort of pattern in it. And it was wonderful. That's what kept me sane, I think in those first really anxious months, when everything was still very unknown. And, yeah, so that was her Christmas, one of her Christmas presents last year.
I guess she's got that to look back on. And you can always associate that blanket, I guess with, you know, getting through that really difficult period of time. Yeah. Does it matter to you what the stitch pattern is? Or like more in the process? Does that make a difference or not particularly
Not really, it needs to be one that I can, if I want something easy and rhythmic like that, it needs to be something that I can, my brain can remember without really referring to a pattern all the time. So yeah, but I but I, I have, you know, sort of a done a lace shawl. Well not done. I'm doing a lace shawl and another and another large sort of shawls, scarf stroke shawl pattern. It's got a few
different complicated lines in it. You know, in between, I'm rhythmically away, and then suddenly I come on this line write I have to pay attention now. So that's a nice one. Because it takes it takes me about an hour to do a row
Oh, wow. It's big.
It's sock yarn, Well, it's in sock yarn. Yes, it's, it depends. I pick up on sometimes I'll just do a dish cloth. Yeah. So you'll do it or a face cloth?
So pretty much every day, you'll do some knitting. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I'm exactly the same. And I definitely also relate to the idea of having projects for different, I don't know, moments in my life. So I need something I find if I'm doing a zoom training or something, I need to knit something rhythmical. And easy, because it helps me focus on sitting still and listening. Yeah, I'm learning something.
Whereas I also like to have something more complicated. They have to really focus on so that it's not possible to think about stressful things for the rest of my life at the same time as doing the knitting.
Yes, yeah. Yeah. It's, I mean, obviously, the level is different for everybody. But if you have an easy project going on, you can listen to and take in information and retain information. I think lots of knitters say they retain the information better more effectively than anything. I wouldn't be able to do that with a complex pattern. No, it would have to be an easy one. Yeah. So my my brain, my brain is doing something automatically in the background, but my attention is on the on the talk.
Yeah, the same. And I find it's easy to do, you know, stocking stitch or garter stitch for, you know, you can get through the boring inches on on a sweater or something. While you're listening. Definitely find it helps me focus. And I would love to hear more about Stitchlinks and the kind of community you've created. And I know your invitation on the stitchlinks Website for people to send you stories about their relationship with knitting. I'm assuming that was inspired by
this filing cabinet that you this treasure trove. You came across all those letters?
Yes, yeah. And you know that I continue to get stories and the stories are mind blowing. And they're in, you know, in what I mean, I had one yesterday from somebody who said, my mother, last year, my mother and father were both in intensive care with COVID. Fortunately, they both survived. But her mother returned home from hospital having to sleep on the sofa because she wasn't able to walk upstairs. She's too breathless to walk upstairs. Obviously, quite low, unable to
use her left hand. And her daughter took her some yarn and some needles and asked her to knit a blanket for her. And the mother has now just found her purpose in life, and she's regained the use of a left hand. Wow. So yeah, she's she and she puts it all down to knitting.
So I guess my area of work is mainly in the mental health and psychological benefits of knitting, but it sounds like you're really noticing also physical changes, like the experience of pain. And yes, I guess rehabilitation physically.
Yeah, yes. And it's, I mean, as you know, it's all intricately intertwined, isn't it? Yes. You know, if you if you feel better mentally, you're more likely to go out and do something physically, aren't you and it's if you feel better physically, you feel better mentally. It's all in. It's all intertwined. So, yeah, you see the benefits across the, across
the board. And I think doing something like creative like knitting in, in lockdown or in a situation of greater uncertainty and, you know, our fear systems were, were were used werent't they to, to, to give information out about COVID. And because you couldn't get that information across by appealing to people's common sense, the only way they could get people to adhere to lockdowns was to terrify the life out of everybody, and work.
And you know, and all those advertising, slogans were were based on our fear systems and making us afraid to go out and touch things and be close to people. And you can't just switch those on and you know, haven't switched on for two years, or 18 months, two years and expect them then to switch off again, you know, people are still still last year there. And I think having something creative, like knitting in that time, has been almost the opposite to that, to that level
of fear. It's, it creates a sense of safety. It's colourful, it's constructive. It's sort of the All in all the things that are opposite to, to what we to what our minds werete nding to dwell on all the time.
Yeah. It would be really helpful if you've got a kind of summary of the all of the work you've done and the things that you've noticed being therapeutic about knitting, have you got a kind of a is there a way of synthesising? I think you've got it right? You've got a knitting equation on the Stitchlinks Website. Yeah, it'd be helpful to hear a little bit about that.
So the knitting equation, I divided it up into three columns. So the first column are the movements, and I think the movements are really important. And the second column is having an enriched environment. And then the third column is the benefits of the social engagement and in a group. So you can choose the the benefits of knitting are diff alone are different from knitting in a group. But the movements, the movements and is portability. I think what sets
knitting apart from other creative activities, yeah. So the movements are two-handed, bilateral, they cross the midline of the body, they're rhythmic, and they're repetitive and they become automatic, and all those have a certain number of benefits. But I think the one that's of most benefit is rhythm of movements. Most of the stories will talk about the rhythm of movements and calming the mind down and there is some research now that your brain likes rhythmic movement or
rhythmic activities, because it makes the brain feel safe. You know, you'll you'll know that the the brain is always predicting what's around the corner, so it doesn't like surprises. It doesn't like uncertainty last that's why a lot of people have struggled over the last 20 months your brain hates uncertainty and although uncertainty has always
been there since the moment you were conceived. You know, you we used to live life with it in the background really was but over the last 20 months has been thrust to the forefront of our minds every single day. And rhythm is predictable. So it makes the brain feel safe. So anything that's rhythmic will, will help you know I've had people send stories about they find drumming, for example, has a very similar effect. Some people say baking bread, kneading bread has the same
effect playing a musical instrument. When you think about those things, like they're great. And I would encourage people to do a variety of things. But you can't take it with it with you on a bus, you can't do it on public transport. And that's the huge benefit of knitting is that you have a tool really effective tool for calming you down almost instantaneously that you can carry with you and we we've had
quite a lot of success curing panic attacks for example. Lots of people can't go on public transport without it particularly now. And they you know, you can use it in the middle of the night. It doesn't disturb anybody else. So that's really what raises it up. We've we've really struggled apart from crochet. And then the only way the crochet differs is that
some styles of crochet are very one-handed. And we tend to I would encourage people to learn more two-handed techniques Have crochet because I think two-handed Nature is, is important.
Yeah, I wondered if you could talk a little bit more about that, because you and I had a conversation before we started recording about a study that's in progress. It's using crochet and that it is different to knitting. And it's something somebody else has mentioned in one of my interviews about crocheting, but not quite finding the same therapeutic kind of feeling from crochet. And I'm interested in and I think that two-handed and the bilateral movements is something
I think a lot of people won't know about. So I wondered if you could say a little bit more about the theories about why that's helpful.
Yeah, I think, I mean, there's no research to back this up specifically on knitting. But there is in other areas, if you're, if you're using, you know, everybody, most people know if using your left hand is controlled by the right side of your brain, and vice versa. When you bring your hands together to form a complex pattern of movements, your brain has to work really quite hard to coordinate those hands, it
occupies a lot of capacity in that moment. If you're crossing the midline, then you're going over into that sort of brain space with your hands. And that's, that actually complicates things even even further. So that you know, there are quite a few people that say that, yes, maybe they find sewing, set rhythmic. But a two-handed movement seems to induce a meditative state more readily. Because you're taking up more capacity more of the brain is involved in that core
inner coordination. So you know, there's some with with crochet, if you;re holding the crochet hook with one hand and just holding the yarn with the other hand and just picking up the yarn, you're very much more or less you just using one hand. There are techniques where you can feed the yarn with your with the yarn holding hands so that you are getting this more coordinated pattern of movements. That's just a theory
of mine. But I think it's you know, if you get if you're getting down to the real details, you have to look at things like that.
I was thinking about EMDR. Yeah, so eye movement, desensitisation reprocessing, which is something used in trauma therapy by psychologists, it's not something I'm specifically trained in, but lots of my colleagues are, and that uses eye movements and sometimes tapping and crosses the midline of the body. And the idea is that those repetitive movements help with re processing a traumatic memory. So I think its a really interesting link
I think there is there is discussion going on with whether the mechanisms behind what's going on with knitting, very similar to EMDR. And I've certainly worked with people suffering from post traumatic stress disorder and their incidence of flashbacks and the severity of the flashbacks that has improved significantly with knitting. In fact, knitting was a the treatment of choice for soldiers after World War One for shellshock. Which, which we now
know as post traumatic stress they used knitting. So yeah, the there is that rhythmic, repetitive movement that crosses the midline and to teachers of young children will say they do something called Brain gym, which is a series of movements that cross the midline of the body to get the brain, awake in the mornings. And again, there's a there's a, you
know, focus on crossing that midline. The other thing I would say about crochet is that if you holding a hook and you have a sort of like a pincer grip on the hook, and you're, you're turning your hand all the time that people that are susceptible to hand and wrist pain, get more real hand and wrist pain, so need to pace need to pace crochet more than they pace. Knitting. Yeah, so that's the other. That's the other issue if you if you have a tendency towards hand and wrist pain to
be a little bit more careful there. But I would encourage people to do both this. You know, the great as you know that variety is good for the brain, so you don't want well, therapeutic knitting is not about encouraging people to sit and knit all day. It's about using it as a tool to improve your well being. It's about not sitting for more than about 20 minutes. It's about getting up and moving around. That's all part of that therapeutic side, getting a circulation going and
using it as part of a whole sort of wellbeing toolbox. Really? Yeah.
Have you had much? I don't know. I'm wondering about what the reception was from academics when you're applying for research funding or for people who were suggested to come to a knitting group for pain management, like how have you found that has been received by people who might not be knitters.
In the beginning. Scientists researchers laughed and laughed. And I don't know if you know, but I had to call knitting something different in the beginning.
I think I read that in your book that you had to rebrand it.
Yeah. Had to call it a bilateral rhythmic psychosocial intervention.
And that worked?
it did it did it? Yeah, it's really weird. There is a oh ay would those who are saying there's almost a fear of using the word knitting in some sort of ways or a fear of being seen as a knitter? It's, it's bizarre. This is it's all it's a fear of the because people see it as something that's been that's done by women. It's soft. It's, you
know, it's the opposite to yours to science really soft. It's fluffy, done by people think it's done by older women or your granny in and there's a lot of that thinking that's going on, underneath what people think of knitting. Yeah. And soon as I started to argue, from the scientific perspective, you know, I'd be in a conference and people will say, say to me a, what do you do, then I say, Well, if I do I use the K word or not. And if I use the K word, people would in a and say, you
know, we're using knitting to treat chronic pain. They would laugh, and you could see their gaze going elsewhere and say, How am I going to get away from this man woman? I was treated a bit like a knitting evangelist who wanted to spread the word knitting, whereas ironically, at that time, I wasn't, I wouldn't have called myself a knitter. Okay. I had not got back into it, then. Yeah. But if I said, we're using a bilateral rhythmic psychosocial intervention, they would say, well, that's
interesting. And what are you doing? How are you doing that then? And that would open that would open the door where we're using knitting, as you know, so it wasn't? Yeah, it wasn't seen as knitting then.
That's so interesting. It took you a while to overcome that stigma?
Yes. Yeah. And we I know, we've had funding proposals turned down without them being read, because the word knitting has been in the title.
So has it changed at all? Since you still, you said started in 2005?
Yeah, it has changed. I'm asked to speak quite regularly now to groups of doctors. Before COVID, we had a number of GP clinics and hospitals who were thinking of starting up therapeutic knitting groups obviously, can't couldn't do that in person now. But it's, it's people don't laugh anymore. And also, I have a lot more confidence in it as well, which makes difference. Because it was a bit it was, it was quite challenging to me personally, you know, if you have somebody
just laugh at you Sure. When you think when you're thinking, right, okay.
Yeah, I think it took me a while to feel confident enough to do that. I think, you know, I left my NHS job in 2017, and went into private practice. And as I was leaving my NHS team, I was known as the knitter there. And I'd organised a few, you know, collaborative projects where we knitted squares, and I put them together to make blankets for people's babies. And I said, you know, I'd really like to run therapeutic knitting
groups. And it was slightly kind of taken as a bit of a joke. And I think it's taken me until this year, really to think there actually, there is enough evidence behind the idea of running therapeutic knitting groups and starting to use it more in my work without feeling worried about how people will
respond. And I think I've also taken some of the principles of therapeutic knitting and applied to a bit flexibly to people who were say, would say no to knitting, but they're using some similar skills to create circut boards or doing something slightly different, but getting some of the same benefits in whatever way feels accessible for them. Yeah,
absolutely. I mean, I was known by one GP practice as that mad knitting woman. And, and even now I can go to a conference and introduced to somebody and they'll say, Oh, so you're that knitting woman you are not as, as anything else apart from that knitting woman, but now it's not done so in such a derogatory way.
Maybe people are starting to see a bit more of the benefits. I certainly feel it, for example, conferences just before COVID, there was more of an idea about, it's okay to doodle, or it's okay to do something if it helps you to focus on sitting still for six hours and listening to a training course, which actually, we as humans are not really designed to do.
Yeah. And I think there's a lot, I think, actually COVID has helped bizarrely in some way, in that people are a lot more accepting of what we would call mind body therapies as well. And there's now a lot of recognition in you know, needing a bottom up as well as a top down approach. And the benefits of that, and, you know, knitting is, is it, you know, changes the input into the brain but it, also induces that level of calm. So you get that top down, calm and the bottom
up, rhythm coming in. And, and there's more recognition scientifically now of, of of that.
And I wonder whether actually COVID has forced us all to think about what do I need in order to be happy and healthy? Like, what do I get from my mind and my body? Yeah, to be able to function? Well, as a human? Yes. A lot of things were thrown up in the air.
Yeah. It's also alerted people to your Well, yes, I am connected to the natural world as well. And it's all you know, it's all tied in. It's not. You can't solve everything with with a pill. It's all interrelated. It's all intertwined.
And one of the questions I always ask in the podcast is whether someone can talk about a significant knitting project for them. So that could be one of your projects, it could be one that's come up in as part of your work.
Actually. The the blanket that's behind me there.
Yeah, that's beautiful. I was noticing that.
It's when I did. It's my comfort blanket for when my mother died.
Oh, I'm sorry to hear that.
That was it. It was while it was eight years ago now. But it's pretty, it was pretty traumatic at the time. And as it happened, my one of my best friends husband, died in the same week in traumatic in a traumatic way. And we both belong to the same knitting group. So we both started, we sat with each other. And I think in those times, you, you don't want to talk you you know, people, when people come around,
they feel the need to talk when you don't want to talk. So we just sat with each other in silence and knitted those blankets,
did you knit the same blanket?
She knitted a slightly different pattern. But yeah, she was just going in straight lines. And that's all we needed. And mine was more or less straight lines. But members from the knitting group would knock on the door, bring some cake and sit, just sit down and knit with us and not say anything. And we would, you know, and and they would come and go and supported us. So I think that was it actually turned into quite a special time. And you know, we both have
that we both have those blankets now. Yeah.
Yeah. Does it feel? Does it feel comforting? Now? Yes. to have the blanket to remember time?
Yeah. But it also feels comforting to know that that helped me deal with processing the trauma of it all. And it really did. Yeah. And I think without it, perhaps I would have had some post traumatic flashbacks, because I was sort of before, you know, sort of, immediately after the event, I was having those. And they certainly helped to calm those down. So yes, I would say that's,
so that's a really special blanket.
Yes, yeah.
And I do think that's a really powerful thing about knitting that you can get through something really hard and have something that is a very physical tangible reminder. But also in a comforting way, often of overcoming or living through surviving something that was difficult.
Yeah, I think a blanket is a nice is a nice project to do in that kind of thing because it because it keeps you warm as you're doing it sort of wraps around you as you as you're making it. So I think it's a really nice project, mindless project to do while you and I think, you know, one of the things that came out in our in my observations of doing this work is that people don't get an opportunity to just be with other people without feeling the need to participate
or talk very much anymore. i It was my mother who, who actually brought up when I was visiting in when I was staying with her. Towards the end of her life. She said, it's so nice to have you here in the evening because I don't feel I have to talk, I can just be with somebody else. So whereas I got visitors, she had used to have visitors all the time, who pop in for, they pop in for a chat and feel they had to make conversation. And she said, I don't want to make conversation all the time, I
just want to sit and be. So what actually, that's what knitting allows, even in a knitting group, you go into a group and sit in the group, but you can sit and just be
Yeah. And I found that really helpful for people who don't find social situations so easy that there's a shared focus, there's a there's a topic of conversation if you want one. But also there isn't any requirement to talk that you could just be there with other people knitting, and not say anything at all. And that wouldn't be considered unusual or rude, or
I think I think, I think that's one of the most important aspects of a group of particularly therapeutic group. Because it people come along, even if they're not, even if they're feeling particularly vulnerable on that day, because they know they don't have to participate. All the people who used to come to my pain knitting group, wouldn't have gone to a group if it wasn't for knitting, because every other group would require you to introduce yourself to say
what you do, you know, and and require you to to take part. But it's, you know, what I one of the things we identified was that knitting is one of the few activities that you can have eye contact or not. Yeah, and the or not, it was really important, because if you're not feeling like participating, you put it perfectly acceptable to just sit and knit quietly. And just as therapeutic to just sit and knit quietly as it is to join in with
the chat. Yeah. And that's what makes it so, so valuable as a therapeutic tool for a group.
Yeah, yeah, I've definitely spoken to people don't always, you know, they've told me they don't find eye contact easy, or sometimes it feels challenging. And knitting is one of the things that has helped them to be in group spaces, because it just isn't required in the same way it's perfect. You know, lots of people are just looking down at their knitting, or they look up, you know, fleetingly and that's fine.
Yes. And there's always a topic of conversation. Now you can say, Well, I would really like that colour, or, you know, I've done this what pattern you're doing. So you don't have to hunt for a topic of conversation, either. I think I don't know whether you found but what I found when running knitting groups is that conversation tends to get much deeper and more intimate more quickly. And people find it easy to talk when they knit. And I think that's something to do
with the automatic nature of movements. And I wasn't, at first I wasn't, I didn't really focus on the automatic nature. But now I think that this is really quite important, because I think if you give the brain a background automatic task to do, then it's somehow and some of the stories say this, actually, that somehow frees up the rest of the mind, the brain to do other things. It occupies the brain or at a low level,
enabling them to talk to talk. And, you know, very, very, I've lost count to the number of times the people have said to me while we're sitting and knitting together. I haven't told anybody this before. Yeah. And it's usually a pretty horrendous story of some of some sort of trauma that they've kept in that they haven't felt able to talk about.
I wonder whether the eye contact helps with that as well. Because certainly some of the things that I work a lot with teenagers and their families, and I find that parents of teenagers often say, Well, they don't really open up
to me, unless we happen to be in the car driving somewhere. And I guess driving is another automatic kind of process, but also, from the teenagers perspective, who's probably not doing the driving, they're sitting not having to make eye contact or have an intense we're sitting down to have a chat type conversation. And maybe that's feels a bit safer to then start to talk about something that might be quite difficult.
Yes, I think I mean, I think it's that feeling of safety, that's the important you get a sort of it does. When you're knitting you do get a sense of safety of being safe, being safe in that moment. And again, I think that's down to the down to the movements that those rhythmic movements and yeah, you feel safer to divulge that information.
That's so interesting. I always end the podcast with with asking what's the greatest gift that you You've been given by knitting that's helped helped you in the rest of your life. I don't know what you what your ideas are about that Betsan.
I think for me, it's set me on a completely different path in life.
In terms of your career. Yeah, yeah.
And it's got me thinking outside the box because you know, I was a physio and as a physio we were trained in a very biomechanical way. And but I'm completely sort of away from that now. And it's It's opened my ideas up to a whole range of issues. I'm I do a lot of work now in the world of, of long term pain with people long term pain. I've become a Tai Chi teacher as a result of knitting, which sounds strange, but there are many similarities. It's sort of rhythmic, rhythmic movement.
It's so yeah, so it's completely changed the course of my life. Really?
Wow. So that's a big thing. Yeah, yeah, sure. I'm sure there'll be loads of people who want to hear more about your work about the research and therapeutic knitting in general, how can they find out more about your work or get in touch with you?
Well, my through the websites stitchlinks.com, but also my book knit for health and wellness, how to knit a flexible mind, has got a lot of advice about therapeutic knitting and history of it. And I'm quite happy for people to email me Betsan@Stitchlinks.com. Okay. Yeah. So happy for anybody to contact me.
Lovely. I mean, Betson it's been an absolute pleasure to hear all about your experiences. It's been so interesting. And thank you so much for agreeing to come on the podcast.
Thank you. I've really enjoyed it.
Thank you for listening to the Why I Knit podcast. If you'd like to find out more about therapeutic knitting you can follow me on Instagram @knittingistherapeutic. Or check out my website therapeutic knitting.org. To be notified when a new podcast is released. Please subscribe on your podcast app.