Expansion Pack: Paul Grogan's Turn (Gaming Rules!)

JP  0:25  
Welcome to Whose turn is it anyway, a podcast all about our gaming group and our obsession with cardboard. I'm JP and I'm joined today by Adrian, 

Adrian  0:32  
you are 

JP  0:33  
In this very special expansion pack episode to introduce our special guests on the show Mr. Paul Grogan from gaming rules. So let's get over there and introduce him

Well, let's start things off and saying welcome to the show. Paul. It's fantastic to get you on the show as our first ever guest. And yeah, on this  fine Saturday morning, although the weather was a hell of a lot better yesterday than it is today. It's just muggy and cloudy. 

Adrian  1:06  
It's just warm today, no sun

JP  1:07  
But no, welcome, Paul. Welcome to the show.

Paul Grogan  1:09  
Thanks for, Thanks for having me on. Yeah, the weather because I'm only like 15 miles south of you, it's the same here. Very, very muggy after after three days of everything melting. Yeah,

JP  1:19  
Literally been, you know, sat in the office looking outside just going 'well, I really want to be out there'. But then it's probably too hot, anyway. Normally you want the swimming pool to be kind of nearby. Jump in. But anyway, Paul, for those that don't know you, and I doubt there's many. Who are you? Like, what do you do?

Paul Grogan  1:36  
Yeah, I'm assuming a lot of people who are listening to this podcast probably know me some, Some people know me very well, but there might be a few people who don't. So my name is Paul Grogan. I'm a gamer. I have been since the 80s. To summarise what it is that I do is actually a 45 minute podcast in itself. To try and shorten it. Yeah, I've been gaming since the 80s. I started off with fighting fantasy books. In the early 80s, Dungeons & Dragons got into board games a bit, played a lot of collectible card games, specifically Magic, then, did- I've done Wargaming. I've done you know, I play D&D for 25 years, for example. I've done. I've done all sorts of things for the hobby, in the hobby. But Euro style board games has been my thing for about 23 years now. Now, that's been the focus of what I do, I don't really do any Wargaming anymore, I still dabble with the card games. I haven't done any role playing games now for about 12 or 13 years. But I'm very, very passionate about the hobby. And as such, about 10/12 years ago, I started basically offering to help various publishers that I was happy with, that made games that I really enjoy. So basically being a, being just a fan and saying, 'Look, if you ever need any help, I'll happily demo your games at UK conventions, or if you need any help with, you know proof-reading rule books or anything like that'. And I was literally just a fan who wanted to, wanted to help out. And that was the start of a very, very slippery slope. And then eight years ago, Gaming Rules Limited was was created. And I've worked full time in the industry for the last eight years and not had a holiday in eight years. Which is changing this year. I'm going on my first holiday in about

JP  3:17  
Yes!

Paul Grogan  3:18  
About a month's time. But yes, finally. But no, it's been it's been a crazy ride. So now I work full time in the games industry, which unlike what some people think is not sitting around and playing games all day. I do writing and editing of rule books. Even though I've officially retired from that I'm still doing a little bit of it. I create instructional videos either full on tutorial, how to play videos, which are scripted, written script, edited, etc, etc. Or lots of playthroughs, I do a lot of playthroughs on the channel since Cullompton got an internet upgrade about three years ago. I've been live streaming nonstop for three years. So I do a lot of playthroughs on the channel as well. And yeah, just just basically lots and lots of different things. 

JP  3:18  
Yeah, and I've been fortunate to be on some of those playthroughs so I appreciate it. Cool. Thanks. I get to play some of the new stuff, which is awesome. So yeah, good stuff. Good stuff.

Adrian  4:12  
Brilliant. So all of our new players we asked the same two questions of, so if its alright Paul, gonna ask those questions to yourself. So what is your favourite game? And what are you really enjoying playing right now?

Paul Grogan  4:24  
So my favourite game for a long long time has been a game called Mage Knight designed by Vlaada Chvátil came out in oh gosh, I can't remember when it came out. Somebody look it up quickly. But Mage Knight for me, it's almost the perfect game. I mean, you know, growing up playing D&D and things like that I still have a soft spot for dungeon crawler type games where it's a fantasy setting. And you're going through, you're killing monsters, and you're levelling up your character and everything like that. And there's dozens, if not hundreds of these games out there on the market and they're still coming out all of the time but a lot of them tend to be very much non Euro style games in that they rely a lot on randomness or dice rolling or anything like that it kind of goes with the genre. And then Mage Knight came out, which was Vlaada's answer to that style of game but done with almost pure Euro mechanisms, deck building, but lots of planning. The combat is deterministic, so it's effectively like a puzzle. But just massive replayability and how it works and Vlaada accidentally has created what's generally regarded as one of the best solo games of all time, he never intended it to be a solo game. But just because the solo gaming hobby has grown so much, and Mage Knight is so good. It's excellent as a solo game. So yeah, I remember when he first sent me an early prototype of the game, and like a 60 page Word document of the rulebook. And I was reading through it and I never forget how I felt at the time. It was like this is the game I've waited my whole life for dungeon crawly style game but, without the sorts of you know, randomness and things like that. And and just Yeah, yeah, really, really enjoyed it. So that's, that's been my, my number one game for a long, long time, probably since it came out.

JP  6:17  
Yeah. Have you played it?

Adrian  6:18  
No, I've never played it 

JP  6:20  
I keep meaning to, it's on the list. I must play Mage Knight. And I know, Paul, you absolutely love it, and I think you had a hand in some of the expansions, didn't you from a designing point? 

Paul Grogan  6:28  
Yeah, so Mage Knight has had three expansions for it. The first one Lost Legion was designed by Vlaada, but I was developer on that expansion. And the next two expansions, which was Krang, which was just a character expansion and shades of Tezla, which was quite a big expansion. I was a co-designer on. So a friend of mine, Phil, we got together on that. Basically, the way that that worked is that the game was really popular, the game was successful. WizKids, the publisher contacted Vlaada and said, 'We want more content' and Vlaada said b'I'm done. I've produced everything I can for the game. But speak to Paul, you know, if you want more content, then I'm sure Paul can, can help out' and stuff like that. So, so WizKids contacted me. And then I got Phil involved, because to be fair, although I'm a co-designer on both of these expansions, Phil did probably 80% of the design work on it. I ended up sort of more project managing it and actually, you know, clarifying a few things and everything else. But Phil, Phil deserves most of the credit for the actual design in there. But yeah, I co-designed the last two expasions, but it's always funny, because I don't go around with a big label on my head saying, 'Did you know I designed the last two game, the last expansion from Mage Knight?', but Mage Knight is a massively popular game. And I'm still meeting people now at conventions or whatever, who come up to me and chat to me and everything else. And I talk to them and I say 'Alright, what kind of games d'you like?', and they go 'Ahh, I'm really loving Mage Knight, Mage Knight's probably my favourite game and and then I let the conversation run for a bit. 'And so have you tried any of the scenarios in the in the like, the last expansion? The Shades of...' 'Oh, yeah, I really like that, that Lost Relic scenario, oh it's really good how you do this, this and that the other.' And I kind of look at them, and I think 'you don't know do you?' and then I kind of somehow drop it into the conversation without sounding arrogant. And so I do it mainly to see whether they knew or not. And almost everybody who I end up in a conversation with Mage Knight about even fans of the game, when I let them know that I co-design the last two expansions they'll be like 'Did you? I didn't know that'. Yeah, because he of course it's Vlaada's  name on the box. Mine and Phil's names are not...

JP  8:32  
Are you in the book, yeah? 

Paul Grogan  8:34  
Yeah, I'm in the book

Adrian  8:35  
You'd assume wouldn't you, that most people when they've done an expansion, they're the ones the base.. the person who's created the base game has also created the expansions. But often if you do a bit of research, there are quite a few expansions out there that were designed by by someone who created the the base games.

JP  8:50  
And it is normal to still put the original designers name on the expansion box, even if they didn't have anything to do with it. And now it's a combination of marketing. But also agreements made with the designer, you know, if the agreement was made that this game is going to have your name on the book, and to be fair, Mage Knight is still Vlada's game. Right? I don't deserve any design credit or anything for, for that, for the original game. So 

Nice. 

Paul Grogan  9:17  
Second question. 

JP  9:17  
What game are you really enjoying? Yeah.

Paul Grogan  9:19  
Oh, so many. If you'd have asked me this two weeks ago, it would have been Carnegie, right. But having played Star Wars Outer Rim a couple of times in the last week or so. If I could choose one game to play today, it would be Star Wars Outer Rim. That's, you know, if you if you ask me again in a couple of weeks, it'll be something else and there's a lot of great games that I'm playing at the moment. Yeah, Carnegie is absolutely fantastic. It's no Star Wars Outer Rim, just got the expansion for that. So I'm really enjoying that. Batman Gotham City Chronicles. I'm enjoying a lot more than I should do for a tactical skirmish dice based combat game. But yeah, I'm fortunate in that even though I work full time in the industry and I spend all of my life pretty much doing games related stuff, as I say, not always playing them. But quite often doing development work or writing rule books or anything, that I still get so much enjoyment out of actually playing games. So yeah, there's there's a lot of games right now that I'm very, very much enjoying.

JP  10:17  
Yeah, I'm blaming you for Carnegie. And I watched your playthrough while I was away in London, and yeah, I think it's those sliding project tiles. Just that was it, done! It's got me. Yeah, it's so cool. It's actually I've only ever played it solo. I've actua lly got a game of it coming up, week tomorrow, and looking forward to trying to get a multiplayer aspect to it. But yeah, no, you can already see that it ticks a lot of the boxes. And

Paul Grogan  10:43  
Yeah, I mean, the multiplayer aspect of the game is actually very good, because and the solo game kind of replicates this in that you know, what Andrew's action, next action is going to be? Yeah. And in the multiplayer game, you really have to go, you really have to, to I spoke about this in the vlog just recently, in that, you know, you look at another player. And you think, oh, okay, well, Adrian is just moved. It's Adrian turn next. And Adrian's just moved all of his employees into the R&D area. And he's got a special R&D department. Well, I Oh, and and the next R&D action is going to trigger income in the West, and he's got two employees in the West, you know that he's going to choose that action next 

JP  11:23  
Yeah

Paul Grogan  11:23  
You know, so therefore, I wouldn't take that into account. Exactly. So it is very much a case of watching the board state and watching what the other players are doing, in order to not guess at what action they're going to do, but effectively work out what action they're going to do next. And that's nice, because a lot of Euro games are very much multiplayer Solitaire and very little player interaction. And although I don't like direct conflict and player interaction, unless that's the object of the game, that kind of player interaction where you have to be aware of what the other players are doing. I think is excellent

JP  11:57  
It's not that solitary experience where you're just focusing on your own thing. You're absolutely right. It's keeping keeping the eye and going right, I need to jump piggyback off of that action, get what I need. And then I can do my stuff further down the line, or at least synchronise your, your actions. But anyway, I could talk about Carneige forever. It's a very good game, just from my limited playthroughs. And really can't wait to get, get that to the table soon, so cool. But yeah, good to see Outer Rim getting some love. That's good, and expansions good? You've played?

Paul Grogan  12:26  
Yeah, I mean, I'm in the minority, that most people when the game, when the base game came out, said, this game is okay. But it's it needs an expansion, it absolutely needs an expansion. Some people went so far as saying it's unplayable without an expansion. And other people sold their copy. Because they felt it needed an expansion so badly, that it just wasn't worth playing without an expansion. And I'm like 'The base game's fine'. I do get the criticism that once you've played it a few times, you are seeing the same cards over and over again. But even then, you know, every game still plays out differently. Because of the character that you've got where you go, everything's in different places, I don't mind the fact that the cargo deck only had nine cards in it. So it was always the same cargo that you were transporting, because that's that's just a small part of the game. So I didn't have the same issues that a lot of people had with the limited card pool and everything else. But the expansion fixes that because it doubles, doubles, the number of playable characters, doubles the number of cards in pretty much every deck. But the best thing about the expansion is the Favours rule. So again, speaking about games that have really really good levels of player interaction, Star Wars Outer rim has it. So, once per turn in the game, you can call in a favour from another player who can help you in one of four different ways. And then you either give them money in exchange for that, or you owe them a future favour or whatever. And those favours work extremely thematic. So in the playthrough, we did the other day. We had one of the characters who was undergoing some kind of skill test or something like that. And it was a tech test. So I think there was something wrong with their ship. And they needed to do a tech test in order to get past this particular challenge. You know, they didn't have any crew on their ship with the tech skill but Han Solo over the other side of the galaxy did have a droid on board with the tech skill. So basically called up Han Solo and said 'Han need a bit of a favour. We've got this red flashing light on the console, what do we do?' Han asks his droid what to do? He tells him and he goes, 'alright, thank you very much'. Now in game terms, what that is, is another player who has a skill that you don't, you can borrow that skill for a turn. But the way that it plays out thematically was actually really good. And the fact that the other player actually had the Millennium Falcon, and called on Han Solo to ask him what the red flashing light it just, it was just brilliant. It really really worked. So yeah, so I love the way the favours work. Now, to be fair, you could use those favours in the original game without needing the expansion because it is literally just a set of extra rules. You don't have any additional components for it. So

JP  15:06  
I didn't know about that. That's, yeah, I can I can see that in the game. Having played the base game a few times see that working really well. Just increase the interaction.

Adrian  15:14  
Cool. Yeah. You've mentioned obviously Gotham City Chronicles and I think most people who follow you will know that you spent quite a bit of time working through rule books and yeah, sheets and all that, for a little bit

Paul Grogan  15:24  
years. Yeah. Literally years. Yeah.

Adrian  15:27  
Yeah. Yeah. So I like I got rid of my copy. Unfortunately, somewhere between you just announcing 'I'm gonna have a look at this rulebook', and then really sort of bringing out details of season three. And kind of now wish I'd have held on to my copy in all honesty. Because some of that season three content along with the previews we've seen of your rulebook do make the game a bit more enticing. Again, I'll be honest, yeah. What you particularly enjoying at the moment, is there any characters you're enjoying, or any villains, particularly you're enjoying playing against or anything like that?

Paul Grogan  15:54  
Nothing, nothing specific. It's more the fact that I have been through the learning curve of that game. Yeah, and I am now at a stage with that game where I can enjoy the game, the way that it was designed to be enjoyed. And although I've worked a lot on the rulebook of the game, it is a very complex game with a very high learning curve. It isn't a game, you can just go 'Oh, do we fancy playing Batman Gotham?' 'Oh, yeah, let's get it down. Well, we'll learn how to play and then play it'. No, no, this game is going to require quite a bit of time investment. And I've been putting in that time investment because I've had to, I'm not, I probably wouldn't have put in that time investment. This is not my style of game. So this is not a game, which if I wasn't professionally involved in, I wouldn't have even given a second look. Because it's got loads of miniatures, loads of dice, and a massive rulebook and a big learning curve. So yeah, that's something that I wouldn't have chosen to do, if I wasn't professionally involved in it. But because I was involved in it, having to learn the game to the level that I had to in order to work on the rulebook and everything else, that basically all of that work was then done, which means I can sit down and actually appreciate and enjoy the game. And I think that's what's enjoyable about it is the fact that it's kind of like the matrix. Now, when I'm playing that game, there's all of the, and if you're explaining it to somebody for the first time, you're like, Okay, so to move from here to here? Well, it's one, but actually, if you look at this map in the in the back of the rulebook, then that means it's a climb level of two. So that's going to add two movement points to the cost of the movement. So you're up to three. However, if you look over here, and this icon, your character has the parkour one skill, the parkour one skill reduces the level of the climb by one. So instead of it being a climb level of two, it's a climb level of one. Ah right, but you're also moving out of an area with an enemy. So because of that, there's a hindering modifier. But your character also has the elusive skill, therefore, and people's are like, and all I'm seeing is I'm just seeing green characters are drifting down the screen. And I'm like, Yeah, this is all making absolute sense to me. And that is great. And, to be honest, it's exactly the same with other complex games, such as Mage Knight, such as Through the Ages, when you know that game so well, you can then just get on and enjoy it.

JP  18:06  
It's great. We just listened to explain that and I just sit back and go, I love board games. I love all that learning it and getting there.

Paul Grogan  18:17  
JP'S there just going 'Just tell me how many movement points it cost to get from there to there. I don't want to know why'. Yeah, just tell it right. It costs four. 'Okay, I don't have four. I'm not gonna do it'.

JP  18:28  
Great stuff. So you talked about, obviously, earlier about your channel. And and obviously, it's quite well known that you're taking a step back from from, you know, the rulebook editing and things like that, to concentrate more on the, you know, pushing out content on gaming rules, kind of how've you found transitioning away from that? I know, you said, you're still doing a little bit because it's probably..

Paul Grogan  18:50  
Bat Man, I made the announcement after Essen last year, because something hasn't been right with me. And I've been trying to rebalance things in my life accordingly. And then after I got back from Essen, I sat down, and I thought about it a lot more. And I thought the only fix that I can think of is to actually give up the rulebook work. And a lot of people was like, well hang on a minute Paul, hold on you haven't you become known as like one of the best rulebook writers in the industry? Why would you? Why would you give that up. And it's a case of, while I'm doing too many things, there is just me. And sure I could I could give up the channel and just become a full time rule writer and editor and not do any videos or anything like that. There was certainly enough work for me to be able to do that. But also, I ended up getting involved in too many big projects. And that's down to me. It's purely down to me being unable to manage my workload. But when you get offered, for example, the rule book writing of Frostpunk I'm not gonna say no to that. Frostpunk is one of my favourite computer games of all time. Adam Kwapiński, the main designer on the game, great designer, he's done loads of things, and I get the opportunity to work on the rulebook for what's going to be this massively big popular game, I'm not going to say no to that. And there was a number of other big projects that came along. And I ended up saying yes to them. And the problem is, is not just a case of me managing my workload, but a lot of those projects grew beyond the original scope. And once you've invested 40, 50, 60 hours, or maybe even 100, 150 hours into a project over four or five months, and then they say, right, it's not finished, there's still going to be more work needed. We now when you check every single card, oh, by the way, there's 300 cards in the game all filled with text. And you're like, Well, I don't have time to do this. But I'm the best person to do it. Because I know the game through and through. So I'm, and this is where the spiral of me getting into I'm now working four evenings a week or I'm now working every weekend and everything. So yeah, I made the decision to step back from from the rulebook writing work and, and do a lot more videos on the channel. Now I already do a lot of videos, how am I going to do more videos on the channel? But we are now, where are we now? We're now June 2022. So it's now eight months after I announced that I'm finishing the rulebook work. And it's only in the last six or so weeks that I've noticed a change because I still had a number of rulebook projects that I was wrapping up. I've still got the Batman Gotham City Chronicles solo rules to do, which I'd agreed to do. But other than that, it is just a case of wrapping things up. And I am starting to notice the effect now. And I keep saying this to Vicki every time even even on busy weeks, where I'm like, I've got to do this. And um, you know, last night I got back from the games club. And 11 o'clock at night, I did a I did a 30 minute technical test to set up for a remote live stream. 

JP  21:50  
Yeah

Paul Grogan  21:51  
For the live stream that I was doing on the Friday evening. So this isn't a nine to five job, it sometimes it requires a lot of work. And even even later on today, I'll be doing some editing work on the Weather Machine video in order that it doesn't drag into next week. But every time that I felt that I've been too busy in the last couple of months, I've said to Vicki at least I don't have three rule books going on at the same Yeah, yeah, exactly. Because that's that's been my problem is that I've got all of these dozens of things going on. Oh, and I've still got Frostpunk, Batman and and three other rule books all on the go at the same time that I'm like, oh, I need to do a bit on that one. And now I need to do a bit on that one.

JP  22:27  
Yeah it's the pressure isn't it? Yeah, kind of having to deal with all that in your mind. And it's like, I haven't got time and focus. And I can imagine rulebook editing, you've got to just devote a chunk of time to get into that mode, because it's not something I would imagine I can pick up for 10 minutes and drop it and then pick it up. 

Paul Grogan  22:45  
No, No

Adrian  22:45  
I always imagine waking up in cold sweats in the middle of the night going, 'Oh, that rule!' I must re-write that rule

Paul Grogan  22:51  
Yeah, so that's not that's not too far from the truth, to be honest. It was affecting my vibe, my sleep and stress levels and everything. But also, because I'm covering lots of games on the channel, I'm having to learn new games all the time. And you're absolutely right, my brain has got a limited capacity. And when you have to know a game, you know, like Batman to the level that I know it. And all of those rules are in there taking up space. And I'm working on the rulebook maybe one hour a week, in that one hour a week that I work on it, I've got to know that entire game in full, you know, I can't forget half, forget half of it, and then go back to the rules. So I'm having to keep all of that in my mind at the same time. And then oh, I've now got to learn Sniper Elite in order to do a playthrough video. And it's just yeah, it's not having the brain capacity to do all of that at the same time. 

JP  23:38  
Yeah it's alright for us. You know, when we're teaching games, and you know, we we forget the odd thing here and there. It's just a play for isn't it? And you know, people, people are moaning at the end going 'oh, you didn't tell me that rule last night'.

Paul Grogan  23:49  
Doesn't matter. It's a bit difficult. Although, to be fair, when we did the Septima tutorial and playthrough we got to the end of the game, and I went oh, by the way, I forgot to mention end of game scoring. So we only mentioned End of game scoring after the game had finished. That's why it wasn't much it was like one point for each potion that you had left and nobody had any. So it was like okay, yeah, that doesn't really matter. But going back to the channel, yeah, so the plan is to basically produce more content for the channel. And thanks to the Patreon support that is, is way more successful than I thought. And a lot of content creators do crowdfunding, most people use Patreon these days. And the way that I view the Patreon campaign is I view it as, well, it is a source of income. But I want to give more back to that than I currently give. So the way that I balance it in my mind is okay, how much money am I making from Patreon each month? And how much money am I making from my paid work each month? And if that is 50/50, then I should be, in my mind giving 50% of my time to produce Patreon funded content. Now, that's not the way that a lot of other people think. But that's that's the way that I think about it. And that's what I want to do. So when, once we get to a stage where I've managed to wrap up all of the projects that I've been working on in the background, the idea for the channel is that roughly half of the stuff on the channel will be sponsored content. And half of the stuff will be non sponsored content, which is stuff that patreon supporters vote on, or just requests that they have, or just, you know, fun games. Some of them are streamed public, like the Star Wars Outer Rim solo playthrough, that I did last week that was voted on by Patreon supporters. And that was a public stream. But there are other videos that I do, which are not public stream. They are just that sort of like behind the scenes videos. And, you know, we even talked yesterday, I did have some work planned for next Thursday. But the publisher is now unable to make that work next Thursday. So instead, what I'm going to do is I'm going to spend next Thursday afternoon, taking the afternoon off work, and producing some fun content for patron supporters, which I'm planning on not streaming to the public. So that will be kind of like a bit of a patron, exclusive kind of thing. Just touching on what you said JP of that you've got the easy job when you're just teaching friends, because it doesn't matter if you get it wrong. The pressure on me when I do a live stream of getting the rules right, is is a real thing, 

JP  26:16  
Yeah big time 

Paul Grogan  26:16  
And the behind the scenes videos that I do for patron supporters, where it is just for fun, and it's, it's not going out to the public. It kinda doesn't matter. I can make all kinds of mistakes.

JP  26:26  
And it's fine in a game night.

Paul Grogan  26:27  
It's a lot less pressure. Yeah, yeah, it's a it feels more, it feels more relaxed to do it. So yeah. 

JP  26:34  
What do you kind of enjoy the most then, like out of, kind of producing that content? Like, what do you get out of it personally?

Paul Grogan  26:41  
I mean, I love playing games. So that's always a that's always a bonus. I always have loved playing games. And if you watch, for example, last night, I did a live playthrough of Sniper Elite with both the designers. So David Thompson and Roger Tankersley, both over in America. Now that was a sponsored video. So Rebellion Unplugged, the guy who works for the marketing department at Rebellion Unplugged is the guy who used to work for the marketing department for Osprey games. Okay, so when he moved from Osprey games to Rebellion Unplugged, he basically said, 'Look, Paul, I'm moving, I'm changing jobs. I'm going to be doing a similar job for a different company. Are you okay if I keep your contact details and contact you about any future work?' And I was like, 'Sure, yeah, absolutely fine'. So now I have my new contact to Osprey games, I still have a relationship with them. And then he contacted me about Sniper Elite. Now Sniper Elite, not my kind of game at all. I'm not really into hidden movement games. I'm also not a fan of the computer game. But the designer is David Thompson, David and David and Roger. I've known David and I've become friends with him over the last few years. And I've always got an interest in every game that he's got an involvement in. And that was the reason why I agreed to do the video. But even though last night's video was sponsored, anybody who watched it or watches it now, it was clear that I was really, really enjoying myself. And I'm not, I'm not a good actor. I can't fake that. So if you're watching that video, think thinking, 'Oh, well, this is a sponsored video, Paul was paid money by the publisher to make a video and make it look good'. If anybody thinks that then they must think I'm a really good actor, because I wasn't, that entire game; the... what I was saying and how I was feeling and how that was going to come across and me saying 'Oh God, this is a really interesting game. It's really tight game', all of this lot. That was real, that that was how I was feeling. It was really, really enjoyable. So yeah, what I get out of it and the most enjoyable thing for me is playing games that end up being really great. And to be honest, I wasn't expecting to enjoy that game that last night as much as I actually did. But yeah, I did. So that was good

JP  28:51  
Yeah, y'can always tell when you get excited on the videos. You get really.. 

Paul Grogan  28:56  
I can't really hide it. Yeah,

JP  28:58  
You've got this massive grin on your face. And I've seen it a few times. So yeah, good stuff. Okay. Let's move on to you Paul Grogan, the gamer. And explore, and you said at the beginning like you've been playing games since the 80s and, and have explored all sorts of genres and all sorts of games mechanisms of the whole thing. How would you say your your kind of tastes in gaming have changed over the years?

Paul Grogan  29:27  
Massively. It's a constant change. So when I was, when I was 14 years old. There's nothing I liked better than invited all my friends around on a Saturday afternoon, and we'd spend eight hours playing Talisman with all of the expansions, right? Now, even if you paid me I wouldn't play Talisman. 

Adrian  29:46  
I know that feeling!

JP  29:47  
I've heard about Talisman and I don't wanna know

Paul Grogan  29:51  
But when I was 14, that's what I played. And then games like HeroQuest, which as far as I'm concerned is possibly one of the worst games ever designed, based on, based on a recent playthrough. And I'm saying that knowing full well, that HeroQuest is an absolutely staple game for the hobby. And what it's done for the hobby. Yeah, has been fantastic. And without HeroQuest, we might not even have Gloomhaven, for example. Compared to modern gaming designs, it's very, very dated. But yeah, but back then played a lot of those games. Now my first introduction to these modern Eurostyle board games was a friend of mine who actually joined, I used to run the games club at the civil service in Blackpool, back in, oh, God, when would this have been? This would have been the very late 80s, probably very early 90s. And it was a role playing group, we basically played, we had two or three groups going, and we play D&D once a week. But every so often, we'd have a break, and we play some board games. And there was a guy who joined the club who brought along games like Acquire, and 1830. Now I had already played games like Advanced Civilization, Advanced Civilization, Axis and allies, things like that. So they were the kind of games that I played around the 80s. And I kind of dabbled with board games around the 80s. But they're the only ones that I really played. But it was primarily role playing games and everything like that. Then when I got into Magic: the Gathering that kind of took over my life for a bit. Said the Wargaming thing that I mentioned earlier on, I've always dabbled with war games, but never got seriously into it. But then when I gave up Magic: the Gathering in 1998/99, I was very, very thankful because I used to go to a club in Hemel Hempstead, the Hemal Games Club is still going now. But that club was primarily people who played Magic: the gathering, there was probably maybe 12/16 people a week that came along. And we always just used to play Magic, did a draft and everything else. But in the corner was a few people who played board games. So when I decided to give up Magic, I went, 'Okay, I'm gonna go over there and join them'. They were playing like Formula D, Ursuppe, or Primordial Soup, as it's called, you know, the games that were around at that time. And I went over and I joined them. And I played a couple of those, those games. And then that year, I went to Essen. And life changed, I basically discovered this other style of game, and really got into it. And I've got this very, very strong memory, because a couple of the people who went to that club who also used to play Magic: The Gathering, were a couple called Dave and Hazel, and they, they lived very, very close to where I used to live in Welwyn Garden City. So they became friends. And I'll never forget, one day, I had given up Magic, and I'd got into these other games, and Dave and Hazel had sort of, not, not given up magic, but they joined me for a couple of these games. And it was one afternoon, Hazel was in Leisure Games in London and called me up and said, 'I'm in Leisure Games in London. These games that we've recently found out about, there's hundreds of them. And there's this one that looks like it could be interesting called Princes of Florence, do I know anything about it?' And I'm like, 'No, but buy it and bring it back. And we'll learn how to play it'. So she bought it, brought it back, and we sat down and we learn how to play. And that is when I learned the word 'Orthogonal'. My life has been changed forevermore. So Euro gaming, is what I'm generally known for. Medium weight or medium to heavy Euro games with a very low look element to them. 

JP  33:28  
Yeah. 

Paul Grogan  33:28  
So you know, rolling dice or anything like that is not generally my kind of thing. And the more Euro it was, the more I enjoyed it. And I actually used to get quite frustrated by games with, with high levels of randomness in.I went down the Euro game route, very, very deeply for for many, many years. And based on some of the games that I've just been talking about in the last half hour, you're probably thinking, 'well hang on a minute, what, what what changed?'. But this is sort of the latest change of my gaming tastes, is 10 years ago, I'd be down the Euro game rabbit hole, and I'd be at the bottom of that hole. And I wouldn't really want to explore anything outside of that. And in the last few years, maybe yeah, maybe the last four or five years, I've become more of an omni-gamer. So games like Batman, Gotham City Chronicles, absolutely loving the game and people, people who knew me 10 years ago, were looking at me and thinking, 'What? Where's Paul gone? He's been he's been replaced by an alien because he's here rolling a bunch of dice and clearly enjoying the game. What's wrong with him?' Yeah, now I think I've just evolved a bit as a gamer and I've come to appreciate the fact that there are these other games. Now, I'm still not going to play Talisman. But there are other games that I would definitely play now that I wouldn't have played 10 years ago.

JP  34:52  
Definitley more open

Paul Grogan  34:53  
I'm definitely, definitely more open minded. Now, as I say that's not to say that I will still play anything, I still won't play Talisman, I still won't play Cards Against Humanity, I still won't play, even Tsuro to list a very, very popular game, I still won't play that. Because I don't... For me, I don't really see much point in me playing that game because there's no level of enjoyment in it. But I am able to now enjoy games that I didn't think I would have been able to enjoy.

JP  35:23  
Nice. 

Adrian  35:23  
So Paul, obviously you mentioned there, we've discussed it on an episode before HeroQuest, you know, it's had the brand new rerelease. And I said, then, 'Yeah, the rules aren't really much, but it's great for a nostalgia hit'. And feeling like you,  like you did when you first started gaming perhaps?Where does Paul get his nostalgia from if he wants to think about the early days of gaming? What games do you grab off the shelf? 

Paul Grogan  35:44  
Well a couple of years ago, I covered HeroQuest on the channel. It was during lockdown. And HeroQuest had a massive nostalgia hit for me. So we found a mod on Tabletop Simulator. And I got together with a few other people. And we did a live stream where we played HeroQuest. And I was expecting... I fully went to it. I didn't remember anything about the rules at all. But I went into that game thinking, 'I know this is old school. I know this is a very dated design. But there's a massive nostalgia feeling from just rolling dice, moving a finger around the board, and then rolling dice to attack an enemy and killing an enemy'. Okay, so this is going to be fun, it's going to be enjoyable, even though I know it's a very old style design. And it was awful. And I hated the game. And it was one of the most disappointing... one of the most enjoyable streams that I've ever done. The only enjoyable bit is where the physics engine went wrong in Tabletop Simulator and half the board went. And, again, I don't want to knock Ian Livingston and the designers of the game. And I don't want to say that HeroQuest doesn't deserve its place in history. But it was 'roll dice to see how far you move with no control over that whatsoever'. Literally just so 'Oh, you're one space short? Right. Well, you just move near the monster'. 'Can I do anything else?', 'No, no, no, no, no'. 'It is literally just move and then attack'. 'Okay. Right'. And then so many of the corridors were one line wide. Yeah, you have to have a clear line of sight to attack everything. So we had one person at the front fighting and the other three behind going 'Well, we can't actually do anything'.

Adrian  37:21  
I mentioned that didn't I? I was like 'We're just conga lining'. Yeah.

Paul Grogan  37:27  
Yeah. And then the combat rules work. Yeah, sure you just.. You just roll dice. But then everything else about the game was just draw a random card, get a random thing, do a random thing here. And, you know, now, if we move on to where HeroQuest has gone, HeroQuest evolved into advanced HeroQuest, which was pretty much the same, but with more rules. But that genre of games is still going. And I believe that the fantasy version of it that's more updated is... is it Silver Tower? 

Adrian  38:00  
Yeah, something like that 

Paul Grogan  38:01  
Might be Silver Tower. And then there's a Warhammer 40k version of it called Blackstone Fortress. Yeah. Which I've played once. And I thought it was fantastic. And I think Blackstone Fortress and Silver Tower are the natural evolution of what started out as HeroQuest. Even though they are far more complicated. Fundamentally, they are the same principle of the game. And having played Blackstone Fortress once is definitely a game that I'd want to play again. But in terms of what I would play for a nostalgia hit now, it's tricky, because as I say, a lot of those games, as far as I'm concerned, are now unplayable though there is one game. Axis and Allies that I mentioned, I used to play Axis and Allies quite a bit in the late 80s and early 90s. And although it's massively long, and it's got loads and loads of dice, Axis and Allies is probably a game that I would play now for a nostalgia hit. Yeah,

Adrian  38:54  
Yeah, I've played a bit of Axis and Allies over the last couple of years. I kind of agree with you on that one. Right.

JP  38:59  
Okay, cool. So obviously, Paul, you're covering lots of new games constantly. As why wouldn't you? Because that's what we, what you do. But kind of how important is it to kind of look back and try and get some of the more kind of classics to the table. When I say classics, I don't mean HeroQuest. I mean, I mean games from like five years, 6/7/8/10 years old. Or how important is that we kind of give...

Paul Grogan  39:22  
How important is it? I don't think it is important, okay. It's not important that you go back and cover some of the old classics. I think it's... it can be good at times to go back to some of these older games from 5/10 years ago, 15 years ago, play them and go, this is actually still really good. I don't think it's important to do that. I think if you're a gamer and you're constantly playing the new games, and if a game is, you know, three or four years old, you don't play it because there's always new stuff. I think that's fine. You know, it's whatever you want to do. But what I would say to any new gamers is 'Don't dismiss a game from like four or five years ago', because the you know, some of them are still out there, some of them has still been printed. And some of them are really good, like Mage Knight, for example. And a lot of these games at the moment, again, again, deluxe edition reprints, whatever, you know, a lot of publishers are picking up on old games from 5/10/15 years ago and redoing them with, you know, with a new version with updated graphics and a million miniatures and things like that. So, but yeah, there's, there's a lot of there's a lot of great games out there. I'm just looking at my shelves in here to see what games I've got in here that are, well, let's take Great Western Trail. So let's, let's forget the fact that Great Western Trail is getting, has had a second edition, and he's getting Argentina and South America, let's forget that, let's just say Great Western Trail came out, had the expansion, and then nothing else came out for it. In five or six years time, you can go back and play Great Western Trail and still be a great game. 

JP  41:01  
Great. 

Paul Grogan  41:03  
So yeah, there are... I mean, it's always the balance, isn't it? You know, there's games coming out all the time. And being a content creator and an influencer? He says, with the with the meta quotes. We're always getting new games, and we're always covering new games. I don't think it's important that you go back and cover the old games, but I think it is, it is useful to remember that those games still exist, and there's nothing wrong with them. Some of them anyway.

JP  41:28  
Yeah, there's there's this temptation, I think, generally in the hobby that 'oh this new games come out. And that that kills this older game, or for this replaces the old game because they've got similar mechanisms or similar themes'. And I don't know, I don't know, it's a bit of an obsession of people going like like 'Sevilla, Ark Nova? Ahh that destroys Terraforming Mars or whatever' or whatever. It's, you know, the... Yeah, it's got some similar mechanisms, but it feels completely different like... And it's just yeah, it's just interesting how certain people think that way, 

Adrian  41:56  
Yeah, definitely.

Paul Grogan  41:57  
There's.. there's also a misconception that newer is better. Absolutely. Which is not always,

Adrian  42:01  
I had a bit of a hiatus in the hobby. So I came back into it over lockdown, bought too many games, like we all did, I think over lockdown. But my first look was things like yeah, Great Western Trail, and this person I hadn't really seen much from, like, was Uwe Rosenberg and I was like, why is he all over the place? Like when I left? I didn't even know who he was. Because he'd been around the hobby a little while, right, you know. And so I felt the urge to go and replay some of these... some of these older games, but I'll be honest, like, and I'm sure you'll feel this as a Euro gamer is that a lot of the other games were a bit prettier, perhaps than some of these like, sort of more painterly sort of Euro games? Do you ever find that you sort of struggled to put some of these games in front of people, because I'll be honest with you, it took me a long time to get my first Uwe game, because I was looking at all these other games on my sort of back list of games I must read, like, now play that sort of from 5/10 years ago. And quite often, some of these games were just, you know, they they looked a bit more sort of simple. And I thought, why do I want that on my gaming shelf? Sort of not looking quite as pretty? And I'm glad I did. I'm glad I suggested to myself that 

JP  43:08  
Don't be fickle. 

Adrian  43:08  
Yeah, don't be Yeah, 'don't be shallow Adrian', enjoy these sort of games that maybe don't have the... have the looks that have that mass appeal as such, like, do you... do you find... Do you ever struggle to get these kinds of games in front of people because of their looks? Or? 

Paul Grogan  43:21  
No, but that's because I'm lucky that most of the people I know and I play games with, like the same sort of games I do. 

Adrian  43:27  
Yeah, fair enough

Paul Grogan  43:28  
So you know, if I got out the most boring looking beige Euro, like Newton, right? Newton from Cranio Creations is a fantastic Euro game. But it is beige upon brown upon light brown upon more beige. And it is a.. it is a Euro game with absolutely no theme whatsoever. It is just doing things to move a cube to get some points to move up a track to do... brilliant. I absolutely love the game. I think it's fantastic. But the people I put that in front of will get excited by the fact that it's beige with some wooden cubes on it. And then there are other people who I play with when I get Batman out and put all the painted miniatures on the board get excited by that. So yeah, I'm lucky in a way, I'm not one of these people who would go along to a games club, sit there, get a game out, and people would walk past and go, 'Not interested'. And then me have to go, 'Oh, I'll play a different game then instead' so yeah.

Adrian  44:19  
So obviously, I think as you kind of touched on, you're well known for... for teaching games, I think and you do a great job of it. I think it's fair to say we've we're big fans on this end.

JP  44:29  
done it a few times, once or twice, a few

Paul Grogan  44:31  
A few times. Yeah. This goes back to what I was saying about when when I started gaming in the 80s. It was always 'let's go around to Paul's house and play a game' and Paul would be the one who teaches how to play the game. So I've been teaching games for I don't know what year is it now? All the math. 

JP  44:50  
Who am I?

Paul Grogan  44:51  
Coming up for 40 years, 40 years of teaching and every gaming group that I was ever a member of my entire life I would generally be the one that taught the games. 

JP  45:02  
Yeah.

Paul Grogan  45:03  
So I have been teaching people how to play games multiple times per week, every week, for almost 40 years. And that is, you know, a lot of that is just experience and practice with it.

Adrian  45:15  
Yeah, yeah. And I think it shows through. JP'S I think our resident teacher, if you like, when he's the one that learns all of our games and teaches to us 

JP  45:23  
I love it though. I enjoy the process of it, like getting the new game, getting all the bits out understanding even how to organise those bits, because you have to understand how the game works to organise them. And then just methodically kind of going through the process of learning and teaching, yeah I love it. There's others in the group that won't touch it with a bargepole. No, no, literally just say..

Paul Grogan  45:43  
If the rule book's good. If the rule book is good, if the if the rulebook is not good, just tearing your hair out getting confused, this is ambiguous. I'm not sure what to do. Put the game in the box and get a different one instead. Yeah,

Adrian  45:56  
yeah. Yeah. And I think as you kind of say, we're not not everyone loves teaching. I don't mind it. I just yeah, I'm not quite sure of how it goes down. When I'm teaching it sort of thing. I haven't quite got that experience in place that you other guys do. So for for people like me, and for perhaps other people in every sort of learning their their ability to teach games, what are the what are the core rules? What are your 101's of teaching a game

Paul Grogan  46:16  
Ooooof? Yeah, I've actually done a seminar on this that lasts about 45 minutes, we don't have 45 minutes do we? So I'll, I'll try and give you the bullet points. First of all, you've got to start with the theme. So whenever you are introducing a new game to anybody, you need to start off with a couple of lines about what the theme of the game is, whether it be 'you are Batman and his friends who are trying to break into this warehouse and disabled the bombs that the Joker has set or something like that, and you've got a limited amount of time to do it', or 'You're all cowboys travelling across America collecting, You know, building up a range of cows to to sell them for money, etc, etc'. You've just got to set the scene, whatever, whatever the the overall theme of the game is, you need to set that first and that gets people straightaway knowing what what the game is about. One of the early things you've got to do is you've got to ... you've got to explain whether the game is cooperative or competitive. Now, 10 years ago, you didn't need to say this, because cooperative games weren't a thing 10 years ago that much. But now straightaway, you need to say you're all going to be working together and you're going to win as a group, or you're going to be doing this, you're going to be doing this and the player with the most points is going to win. So you need to get right at the start of the teach, you need to let the players know whether it is a cooperative game or whether it is a competitive game. And then basically, the overall structure is that you need to start very, very high level and you need to drill down, you don't start a teach by saying 'right in this game, you're going to be cowboys travelling across America, collecting herds of cows and then selling them. Right. On your turn, you've got six possible actions to do. Here, I'm now going to go through all the actions that you've gone down too, too detailed, you need to say to people, right, the game is going to last for 10 rounds, each round consists of multiple phases'. And then you start drilling down into the detail. But basically, high level overview of the start explain to people what style of game it is, make sure you explain to people when the game ends, and how you win, there are important concepts to get across at the start. And then be very careful not to drill down into details before covering the high level structure of the game. The other thing as well is if a game has got loads and loads of icons in it, and like if you've got loads of spaces with lots of icons on and lots of benefits, you don't need to explain them at that point where the... for example, if there's one action in the game, where you can move one of your markers upon a track, I will say right, this action allows you to move one of your markers on that track. I'm then not going to take a five minute break and explain all 20 year icons on that map I'm going to explain: There's a whole load of icons there, they will all do different things. We'll come back to that later on. But as long as you know that action moves the marker up on the track, and you'll get some kind of bonus right? Click, done, moving on. And then later on, you will then, you will then cover the different icons and everything. It all depends how you want to go. One of the things which I found really useful in teaching people how to play games is you say to people at the start, this is a learning game, right? Forget this game. This this game right now that we're going to play. This is a learning game. Therefore don't worry too much about knowing every single rule before you play, just... and I think JP you quoted this. And it's a phrase which I've used before when you're playing a game for the first time. You're just pushing buttons and pulling levers and seeing what happens. Write it off as a learning game. And literally if you don't know what something does, do it and then and then see what happens. But whenever you're doing that I would strongly recommend that you allow people to do some take backs of actions. And I know a lot of people never allow take backs in games, because it can slow the game down. But when you're learning a game for the first time, here's the situation, for example, right, Paul, it's your turn, you've got four actions to choose from, which of those four actions do you want to do? Okay, I'm gonna go and do that action over there. I don't really understand what it does. But we're learning the game. So I'm gonna go there and do it right? Well, that action is to build a house, to build a house, you need to have four stone, how many stone do you have? I've only got two. Right your action is completely wasted. Your goal is over. Next! No, no, you don't, you don't do that. You say, Okay, well, that action is building a house that cost four stone. In my case, I won't do that action. I'll do this action instead. What does that one, that we'll need to stone? Alright, I'll do that one. Then what does that do? It builds a shed. Do we know what a shed does? No. But I'm going to build one anyway. Because this is a learning game. And we'll see what happens with my shed. So everybody wants to turns out the shed is the broken strategy. But yeah, when you're playing a game for the first time, I would say don't get hung up on who wins. Don't get hung up on all of the details. Just go in, push those buttons, pull those levers experiment, see what happens. The aim is to learn the game. So get the game over, in as quicker time as possible by doing stuff, and then play again. I've seen some really, really terrible experiences of people who said, Oh, yeah, we played we played Great Western Trail for the first time last week, it took us seven hours.

And I'm like, Why did you spend seven hours is because we were all learning the game. Okay, you were all learning the game. But But were you all like really learning the game really analysing your move? Really thinking about it really? For? Yeah, well, yeah, we did. Right? Well, next time, just, just don't do that. Just just play quicker. Play it in three or four hours, and then put it away, and reset it and play again. And be better next time. So yeah, first time you play a game is always a learning game.

Adrian  51:48  
So our next question is to do with teaching games as well. And it's one of our listeners questions. And they asked 'when you are teaching a game? Do you make a conscious decision to play as the first player?' Or are you happy with anyone taking the first player, when you're teaching a game,

Paul Grogan  52:02  
it normally depends on the game. It really does. I mean, if you've got a game where three of the people have played before, then it can be advantageous for the new player to be the fourth player so that they see three other player's actions beforehand. I don't want to put anybody on the spot. So you know, if if it's if it's a new game, and I say, right, okay, it's your go first. And that player is sort of like, oh, well, I don't really know what to do. But generally speaking, I will... My my teaching commode is always on. So even when I'm playing in the game, I will be helping people with rules, and also particularly tactical advice. And I've been known to do this, in that: 'Okay, it's your turn. It's a conflict heavy game. You've got three armies there. I've got a I've got a depo or supply point here, and I haven't defended it, this would actually be a good opportunity to attack me. And I will, I will recommend moves for other players, which are detrimental to me, because my primary role is that I'm teaching them how to play the game, not not trying to win the game. Of course, when they move in there, then I reveal the fact that I've mined it and everybody dies. That would be that would be cheating. Yeah, it really depends on the game. Like Star Wars Outer Rim, for example. Right? Let's pick Star Wars Outer Rim. I'm teaching Star Wars Outer Rim to three other players at the same time. I don't see the need for me to go first in that game. Yeah. Because I could quite easily say to somebody, right, you're going first. And they go, Well, I don't I don't know what to do. And I'm like, but you've got a bounty on this character. So you probably want to move towards a planet where you think that character might be. Oh right. Okay. And that's it. And then they move to that... they move and then we resolve it. So yeah, it's not essential. Mage Knight, would I go first in the game of Mage Knight, possibly, to just show them how it works. But again, with Mage Knight, I would, I would be talking them through their turn, carefully. I would, I would be basically saying, look, let's have a look at what cards you've got. And let's have a look at what your different options are. So yeah, I don't, I don't think it's essential for the person teaching the game to go first.

JP  54:13  
Yeah, so let's move on to the penultimate section, which is all about GridCon. It's your convention that you set up and I believe it was before lockdown was it?

Paul Grogan  54:20  
It was, GridCon 1 happened before this thing called COVID existed

JP  54:24  
Bit annoying wasn't it? kind of got in the way if you've never... 

Paul Grogan  54:27  
November 2019 was GridCon 1. 

JP  54:30  
And for those that kind of follow you and know you, that GridCon was all born from your Paul's Post-Essen gaming weekends that you you had round your house after your trip to Essen and coming back with all the goodies and all the games and say, Look, I want to try all of this cool stuff out. So kind of what were your motivations to kind of then turn that which is probably... Obviously it's quite a social thing with more of your local kind of gamers and things into a proper convention? Like what... why did you want to kind of build it into that way?

Paul Grogan  55:00  
There's a... there's a couple of main factors. But you're right in saying that Paul's post Essen games weekend has been running for 22 years now. And traditionally was I'd invite loads of people round to my house a month after Essen. And we just spent three days playing games. But then for my 40th birthday, which was 2010. 2010? Yeah, wow, 2010 I said to Vicki, 'I'm going to have a game this weekend for my 40th. And I'm going to invite people around, and it's going to be like...', and she said, 'What you mean a bit like the...' and we used to call them rune meet. And she said, 'A little bit like rune meet?'. I said, 'yeah, yeah, yeah, pretty much the same'. Just invite loads and loads of people around. And it'll be Friday, Saturday, Sunday, and then they'll go on Monday. She said, 'then this is just a one off yeah?' And I went, 'maybe?'. And then, And then basically, yeah, Rune meet became a twice a year thing. There was summer rune meat and there was winter rune meet. And this went on for yeah eight, nine years. Two driving factors, which made me convert what was a big games weekend at my house into an actual convention. The first one was, as I was getting to know more and more people, I was inviting more and more people. The... at its peak, there were 35 people in my house playing games for a weekend now, JP, you've been to my house? It's quite reasonably sized. Yes. Yeah. But can you imagine 35 people in this house for three days? Yeah. It was, it was ridiculous. We had people playing games in the garage, sleeping in the garage, we had people playing... the front garden was full of tents. Because a lot of these people stayed over a lot of these people travelled. And a lot of them stayed over. So all of the rooms were filled with people, the living room, the dining room, we had somebody sleeping, two people in the kitchen, we just had people sleeping everywhere. And whilst I thought that was great, you know, I've got all these friends that are coming round, they're having a great time, they're staying for a weekend, no cost, free accommodation, just playing loads of games, it's brilliant. The number of people that I wanted to invite to these events was going up and up and up to the point where I was having to make decisions on who not to invite. And I didn't feel good about that, that that gave me gave me bad feelings. The other thing is, I got older, and my tolerance for having 30 people in my personal space for three days, where I couldn't even just get a moment to myself. And you'd walk downstairs at four in the morning to get a glass of milk. And you'd have to step over people. And I was just...

JP  57:34  
Its like Christmas on Steriods

Paul Grogan  57:37  
So ultimately, a decision was made I tell you what, why don't we actually try to run just a small gaming convention. And then that fixes both of the problems. So we did and it was successful. And GridCon is now a thing. And GridCon three will be happening this November, and it won't be in Devon anymore. It'll be in Taunton ,in Somerset, but we're still keeping the name GridCon.

JP  58:03  
Yeah, even though obviously, it's not in Devon. So I've heard some other suggestions for what it should be called. I'm not gonna mention them.

You're laughing because you won't mention them. 

Paul Grogan  58:11  
Yeah, we wont mention them here

JP  58:12  
Yeah, you were in the same... Obviously, you were in the Just One charity event. And yeah, one of them made me laugh. So we'll keep that in the back burner. Anything you missed on the old days, like with running the conventions, obviously, you've got more people there. But anything you kind of miss about the err...stepping over people to get a glass of water?

Paul Grogan  58:29  
You touched on it, it was that it was that social thing. It was the fact that... and I'll never forget. But I came downstairs one morning, it was like nine o'clock on a Sunday morning, I had not slept much. Because these were the days where I was younger than I am. And I'm able to stay up till two or three in the morning playing games and then get up at nine and go downstairs. And I got up. And I went downstairs at nine o'clock in the morning. And there were people setting up a game of Twilight Imperium on the dining room table, including two people who weren't there the day before. So before I'd even gone downstairs, two people who turned up to my house let themselves in because the front door was open, let themselves in and joined in this game. And there they were all about to play a game. And the reason why that felt good for me is that I'm providing this environment where people can get together and play games and enjoy themselves. And the fact that I was hosting it my house where people didn't have to pay anything to come. It was just great. Yeah. But you know, it did take two days to clean the house afterwards, because people basically just lived off takeaways and sandwiches and everything. So the entire house was just full of stuff after. And we had to actually rearrange the house because we've got lots of big houseplants and everything else. We had to spend two days preparing for these events by moving a load of stuff around to make sure that there was enough space for people to... it basically got turned into a whole series of gaming rooms, like four or five gaming rooms, and then had to put it all back afterwards. So but yeah, there are parts that I miss about it. 

JP  59:57  
I couldn't get away with that. 

Adrian  59:59  
Just the idea is giving me like panic attacks almost here, like the idea of spending two days moving like rooms around just to have some people over

JP  1:00:07  
Then having 30 people around constantly No, I just want to hide.

Paul Grogan  1:00:10  
I mean Vicky's, Vicki is very supportive of me in everything that I do. And she's not a gamer herself. But she knows how important it is to me. So she's always supported me with these things and helps get ready and does loads of baking for for people for the weekend. And then sometimes it goes away for the weekend to her sisters or parents. While I'm having it, because she's just in the house. There was one time it was a... it was... there was another memory that I've got, which was which was her getting up early one morning, going downstairs and seeing people in the kitchen playing games, who she did not know. And that was a little weird. The fact that it's her own house. She goes downstairs in the morning to get her breakfast. And there's some random people in the in the kitchen playing games who she doesn't even know who they are. It's a little bit weird, but yeah, she's she's been very, very supportive of me. And she co-runs GridCon with me. So GridCon is not just my convention. It's kind of our convention. And even though Vicki is not a gamer, she it's a 50/50 job, all of the organisation for it. And if you've been to GridCon, then the woman who is on reception for the entire time. That's Vicki. She won't be playing games, but she... she is there supporting the event.

JP  1:01:21  
She's a good egg She's... you've got a good one therePaul, definitely. Yeah,

Paul Grogan  1:01:25  
I should marry at some point. Yeah. Yeah. Maybe next year.

JP  1:01:29  
Next year. Definitely. Marry her, and keep her. Yeah.

Paul Grogan  1:01:32  
Okay, I'll do that. I'll do that,

Adrian  1:01:34  
Brills. So well, you've mentioned GridCon 3, that's probably going to be my first board gaming convention. Cool. Yeah, really looking forward to it. Now I'll be honest, I've put off gaming conventions before? You know, I'm not, before this group, I was pretty much looking to go to these things solo. And that terrified me to my core, in all honesty, for those people who are in that position, what advice do you have either whether they're going solo with a group, their first convention? Sort of what advice do you have for those for those people?

Paul Grogan  1:02:08  
So it all depends on the convention, you're going to now GridCon, specifically, I put something in place exactly, for those people, which is if you are coming to this convention, either on your own or with a group, and you don't know anybody else here whatsoever, you let me know. 

Adrian  1:02:25  
Right? Okay. 

Paul Grogan  1:02:25  
And I will take you under my wing, and I have a demo table. And I will sit you down, and we will play a game together. And if it's only you on your own, then I will find other people. And suddenly, shortly after you getting there you are in a game with other people, I'll teach you the game. And then if you get on with those people, you might say, Well, should we play another game together, and all of a sudden, you've made new friends, and you're playing games with them. If you arrive in a group, one thing that I try to encourage is groups do not just turn up at an event like that, and then spend the entire time playing games in their group. Because you could have just stayed at home. Whilst I'm happy that you've bought a ticket, and you've come, this is an opportunity to mix and match. But I also know, suffering from similar social anxiety as other people that it can be difficult. You walk into a room, there's 200 people, they're all playing games, you don't know anybody. But the thing is, everybody there has the same interest as you, everybody there is a gamer and everybody there is super, super friendly. So all you need to do is walk around, and you go, 'Oh, wait a minute, there's... there's two people there setting up Tapestry. I like Tapestry wonder if they've got space for one more. And you just say, 'do you have space? For one more?' The answer will be either 'Yes.' Or 'no, we've got three friends joining us who are just getting food' or something like that. But more often than not, people will say yes, feel free to join us. That's how it works at these conventions. If you've never been to a board game convention before. That's how it works. And even other conventions, like, you know, ManaCon, MidCon, or even UK games Expo, you walk around the open gaming area, you see people playing a game, or they're setting it up. And if... if it looks like the space and you're asked to join in, then then then you can join in. And that's that's generally just just how it works. So it's easy for me to sit here and say don't be nervous. Certainly for GridCon, We have a sort of thing in place that if anybody is nervous at all, they can come and speak to me and I will introduce them to other people or say 'oh, what what kind of games do you like playing?' and somebody might say, I'll tell you what, I've recently got a copy of Euthia and I've been playing a lot of that right, I will now go and introduce her to the 10 other people who I know who are here who all love Euthia and suddenly you've got something to talk about and then and then that's it.

JP  1:04:47  
I think one of the things.. I attended GridCon last year and one of the systems that you use in that convention are sort of so simple but fantastic is you have the 'looking for player' signs. So looking for place and yeah and you know if you I set a game up and I rocked up there with Dune Imperium, and I went on my own. I put one of those signs on, and it wasn't even 60 seconds before three people came and went 'can we play?' Like? Absolutely! And I think it takes that awkwardness away of approaching a table. And then like you said, have they got people filled those seats who have just gone off to get a drink or not. And that just feels awkward. If you've got a sign or they're looking for players, it's black and white. It's like, come and approach me, come and play. And I just thought was such a simple system works really well.

Paul Grogan  1:05:34  
And did you? Did you so you didn't know those people?

JP  1:05:37  
Not all right. 

Paul Grogan  1:05:38  
Okay, well, there you go. That... that... I mean, it's nice to know that that's how it works, because I'm busy running the convention. So I don't actually see the nitty gritty of how these things are actually working. But it's good to know that that's, that's what you did. And that's...

JP  1:05:51  
I think it just encourages people if they are going on their own is to use that. You know, bringing some of the games yourself, obviously, you have a library don't you, that you can check things out if it's available. 

Paul Grogan  1:06:00  
Yep, We have a library

JP  1:06:01  
and yeah, just use the system. It's great. Yeah,

Adrian  1:06:04  
yes, I've done like Salute before and I've done some comic cons, but it's quite a different feel, isn't it to like if like, even having not been to one I can tell it's going to be a different feel, something like a GridCon or something like that, which is primarily about sitting down with strangers almost and playing games, right. It's quite a different setup for an experienced... So yeah, so I'd always been a bit nervous about going on my own. So So now I've got now I've got this new group that I've sort of known for a year or so feeling a bit more confident to go to them. But yeah, it's

Paul Grogan  1:06:33  
Yeah, I mean, I've I've been to Salute in the past a few times and Colours as well another war gaming convention, because I used to, even though I didn't really do much Wargaming. I used to go along to these because he used to love looking at all of the painted miniatures and the scenery and some of their participation games. But those are more exhibitions and sharing. So yeah, GridCon is an open gaming convention. And it is literally just rooms of rooms filled with tables with people playing games. There's no games.. you know, gamers will be there in the corner selling games, but there's no exhibitors, there's nobody trying to push their games on you. There's none of there's no booth to walk around or see or anything like that. It is literally just, you know, three days of playing games. 

JP  1:07:14  
So there's no pushy salesman trying to sell heat gel to you every moment like there was at the Expo. Which was kind of a weird thing, I still can't get my head around that. But there we go.

Adrian  1:07:23  
So anyone who's listened to the most recent episode, know that we've got some niche number ones out there. It's a set of what is our favourite game in a kind of niche circumstance. And our intention is to ask all of our guest players a couple of these questions. So if that's all right, Paul, I'd like to know, what is your favourite game under £20 pound?

Paul Grogan  1:07:39  
Or? Right now? It's probably something like Just One, 

Adrian  1:07:44  
right? 

Paul Grogan  1:07:46  
Yeah, Just One or other games in that genre? Like, Code Names. So Clover, anything like that? Yeah. They're they're such good fun to play. They are absolutely the kind of games that I would use with non gamers, not necessarily to introduce them to the gaming hobby, because I don't think you can, I don't think you can play Just One. And then take Great Western Trail in. It's not a gateway to Great Western Trail it's just an introduction to people who think, oh, I don't like games, because they're all like Monopoly. And you say, just try this one. And suddenly they play it. And they go, Well, I was really good. And you're like, yeah, now Now let's get out a Vital Lacerda title.

JP  1:08:26  
Yeah, if you have done that, then we want to hear from you. If you've managed to kind of get from Just One to On Mars. Yeah. Good. Well done.

Paul Grogan  1:08:36  
If you like... its like Amazon, if you like this, you'll also like this.

JP  1:08:43  
So the next question that we've got, then is your favourite game to play at to players, but also plays five 

Paul Grogan  1:08:50  
Ahh, it's a tricky one. Because a lot of games that play up to five, tend not to work that well at two. Yeah, there is one that comes to mind, which I'm in the minority on. So the original game of Caylus. And in fact, the new version of Caylus: Caylus 1303 plays up to five and has a two player mode. And a lot of people and a lot of reviewers and other gamers all said that the two player version of Caylus doesn't work. 

JP  1:09:20  
Okay. 

Paul Grogan  1:09:21  
I have played the two player version of Caylus, about 300 times. It's amazing. It's a very different game, but it's extremely tactical, it is... some people have compared it a little bit to chess, in that it's all about waiting for somebody to make a mistake. And then, right you've made a mistake that could be game. Once you get to players who are so good at the game that are playing at the same level, then it is very much a Yeah, it's who made who makes the first mistake kind of thing. So I think Caylus works really well at two player. It has a very different feel to the multiplayer game. But I think it works brilliantly. So yeah, that would probably be my favourite game at two players, which takes up to five.

JP  1:10:05  
Yeah, we blame Adrian for this, he posed this niche number one on us in the episode, and we would... think it broke most of us. Yeah, then we found one, 

Adrian  1:10:15  
Everyone came up with, like, what I think was a pretty good suggestion from it. And it's one of those things,

JP  1:10:20  
Made us think though. 

Adrian  1:10:20  
Yeah, it's one of those things where I look through. So during lockdown, there was myself. And for those who don't know, in the UK, you're allowed to bubble with somebody else with another family or because I was living on my own. So I had another friend who's living on his own, we bubbled and we looked at our collections, and mine basically went from one to four and his went from five to nine. Yeah, like as players, why is it? Right, okay, fine. So, I was thinking I really should get some more games in there that play five players. And so you know, sure enough, I did go out there and find some that sort of did that two to five player a little bit more. And yeah, so that's why I thought it'd be interesting as a question, because because those games do tend to be categorised almost in four in less than five and more. In my experience, they sent a team to kind of be quite hard lines, comparative to other player accounts. So just a quick question for curiosity on Caylus. So it's one game that I've looked at. And my understanding from some reviews is that the newer version has taken off some of those pointier parts of the game. Is that your experience?

Paul Grogan  1:11:17  
So prior to Mage Knight, the original version of Caylus was my number one game of all time. And it was for about two or three years. There is a there is there is a bit of a running joke with me and Vicki that if there was ever a fire in this house, which would I save first her or my copy of Caylus. And the fact that I paused before answering Well, it was actually quite funny. This this this running joke went on for a few years, it got to the point where one night, I went to bed early. And just as a just as a joke, I took the copy of Caylus to bed with me. So Vicki climbed into bed and found that there was a copy of Caylus in bed next to me. So I think it's fair to say that I love the original game of Caylus. But I think the new version is a better game. 

Adrian  1:12:06  
Okay, 

Paul Grogan  1:12:06  
It's each now some people disagree. A lot of people who were massive fans of the original game, don't like the new one because it's a bit dumbed down. But I think the new version Caylus 1303 captures almost exactly the same feeling as the original game, but with less pointy bits. A bit less fiddlyness and plays in a shorter time.

Adrian  1:12:27  
Yeah. So yeah, yes, it's a it's one of those that I looked at. And again, you know, the new board cover, the new game cover looked a bit shinier than the old one. But I'd heard sort of mixed reviews on which one to get so good to know that the new ones standing up.

JP  1:12:43  
Good stuff. Okay. 

Paul Grogan  1:12:44  
I think so. Yeah. 

JP  1:12:45  
Final question, Paul, which is kind of what games/events Are you looking forward to? What's coming up that you're really excited about? You want to tell the world

Paul Grogan  1:12:55  
Everything everything? Obviously, just touching on what? Yeah, touching? What I was saying earlier on, is that a lot of people say to me, oh, Paul, you've been working in the industry now for eight years. You live and breathe games all the time? Do you still get excited about them? And it's like, Well, yeah. So, you know, I'm excited about the fact that I've recently had my copy of Endless WInter through. So Endless Winter will be being delivered to backers probably in a couple of months time. But I'm going to, yeah, I'm going to be producing some tutorial videos on the game, therefore, they the factory has sent me an early production copy of it. And I'm not excited about the fact that oh, look at me, I've got my copy of Endless Winter. It's the fact that I think this is going to be a really good game, and I'm looking forward to playing it. So that's arrived. And it looks fantastic. Production value is great. I'm still excited about Outer Rim, even though I'm

JP  1:13:46  
not jealous, no 

Paul Grogan  1:13:47  
Not jealous at all. Not jealous. Well, if I if I go out to IKEA this afternoon, and I come back and find that copy of Endless Winter is gone. I'll know who's taken it. Yeah. I'm looking forward to my copy of Frosthaven arriving as well, you know, that's coming. We mentioned Frostpunk earlier on Frostpunk should be being delivered to people early this year. And I was very excited at EXPO to see a production copy of Frostpunk. And there's a guy called Ross who I know who does demos for Asmodee. And he was demoing Frostpunk to people at the weekend. So he sat there two days before Expo and learned how to play Frostpunk from the rulebook with no help from anybody else whatsoever. And then he went on and demoed the game to people. And then I said to him, I said, so did you have you got any questions about the game? He said, every question I had about the game. I could find the answer to it in the rulebook. And I was like, No, you don't have any questions. There was nothing ambiguous whatsoever. And he was like, there was only one question that he had for me about how two cards combo together. And I was like, Well, what do you think the answer is? And they said, Well, we all think it's this and I was like, yeah, it is that. So it was like yeah, that was really good. So I'm excited about that arriving. But I'm also excited about just the future content that I'm covering on the channel. You know this this week for example coming, I'm going to be doing the Mini Express playthrough with the UK map. Now Mini Express, is a game that I've covered on the channel before. It's a nice little train game where you're placing trains on a map. But there's a UK map expansion coming soon designed by Tony Boydell. Tony Boydell I've known for like 23 years, Tony Boydell used to play Magic: the Gathering with me back at the hammer games club in the late 90s. And Tony Boydell has since gone on and become a very successful UK designer Snowdonia, amongst other other games. And Tony is designed the UK map for Mini Express. So it's exciting the fact that I'm getting to cover again, which I like with an expansion map designed by somebody who I've been friends with for for 20 odd years. And it's little things like that. It's not always just for me, or it's a job or it's a game or it's a video, there's a there's a personal element to it as well. And next Friday, the two people that are coming around to play Mini Express with me are Nick and Gemma, Nick and Gemma used to be regulars on the channel. They were they've been on the channel quite a few times, and they've done a few videos with me. They've recently just had their first baby. They've been away from the sort of gaming scene for the last, I don't know, four or five, six months, maybe even more now, this Friday coming is when they are coming around for the first time. So yeah, it's there's all sorts of little things like that, that I'm looking forward to. But yeah, generally speaking, I'm always looking forward to what's coming up in the future. And there's lots of it. You know, every week there's, there's something new,

JP  1:16:38  
Brilliant. Now I think you can combine your your work into something you love, you're on a winner in my book. So yeah, I think it's great that you've, you've managed to kind of get to that position, Paul, and kind of wish you all the luck with the future content and anything and always, as always, if you need any players, let me know. Well, yeah, you know that? No, look, I just want to say a massive thank you for your time this morning and just sitting down and chatting to us about games and your channel. And, and I think if anyone kind of wants to learn more about gaming rules, we'll put some more details in the show notes and also around Paul's Patreon as well. So you can kind of check that out. And but yeah, thank you very much for spending the time with us. 

Paul Grogan  1:17:18  
Yeah, thanks. Thanks very much for having me on. And yeah, if you just put links to the YouTube channel, that's where pretty much everything is.

Adrian  1:17:25  
No, thank you very much. Thank you for your time. It's it's been insightful certainly on on the journey that you've been through and what you're doing at the moment. So thank you very much. Yeah,

Paul Grogan  1:17:33  
I will see you at GridCon then Adrian,

Adrian  1:17:35  
You will indeed you will indeed. 

Paul Grogan  1:17:36  
Yeah. Excellent. Right. Thanks for your time. I'll see you both soon.

Adrian  1:17:39  
Cheers. Thank you very much. Cheers. Bye. Cheers guys

JP  1:17:47  
Right thanks for listening to the show. I'm off to teach Adrian some Burncycle hopefully looking forward to it. Yeah. But always you can get us on our socials you can email us at players@whoseturn.co uk or you can check out Facebook which is Whose Turn Is It Anyway Podcast or Instagram @whoseturnpodcast and for more silliness TikTok @whoseturnisitanyway, but we'll rejoin Adrian as first player on the next episode, and we'll see you soon.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai