Expansion Pack: Jackson Pope & Paul Willcox's Turn (Eurydice Games / FlickFleet)

Davey  0:25  
Welcome to Whose turn is it anyway, podcast all about our gaming group and of course board games. I'm James Davey, your current first player, and I'm joined by other player, Ian. 

Ian  0:35  
Hello, 

Davey  0:36  
to talk about FlickFleet. In this podcast, there's a little expansion pack and we're going to talk about a self published game FlickFleet. It's a really fun dexterity flicking game for two players, and seem to be four players, but we'll talk about that later. The basic premise is you flick these little acrylic pieces around shape light ships, Once in position, you can shoot which is put the dice out on top of the ship, flick it over ships, things explode, things happen, depending on what abilities your ships have. And what is on the board. Real fun, dexterity simplistic at its core quite complex in its action scape. And we've got the developers Paul Wilcox and Jackson Pope coming in and having a chat about their little love child FlickFleet. We've played it and it's an amazing game. So what else can I say? Let's get to it.

Alright, so we're joined with Jackson. Is it? Do you prefer Jack or Jackson? Hi, don't mind you don't mind. So Jack and Jack and Paul. Developers of Flickfleet, Scott a couple of questions that asked. So how did you guys become involved in the tabletop gaming industry? Like what? What was the inspiration and put you forward for it?

Jackson Pope  2:00  
That's a question for me. And you'll see why in a moment. So I used to make little bits of computer games. My background is in software engineering. And I went down to play. I've been playing games since I was a kid and I went down to play against friends. And it lasted literally all weekend, which I this ridiculous. I cannot spend the whole weekend playing games. This was before I had kids. I mean, now obviously, I can't play entire weekend. I thought I could I could make a game that's a bit like this. But you could play it in a sensible amount of time, like an hour, hour and a half. And that led to my first board game design, which I came up within I think I was working on it actively developing it between 2002 and 2004. That it went in a tupperware box and sat on the shelf for a couple of years. And then I moved to Europe. And I thought no, it's silly. I've got this book game and it's finished games sat in a box on one shelf, I should do something. So I decided to try and self publish it just like a little handmade run of like 100 copies of something I recommend I could probably sell 50 Or do 100 To get the cost to stay. And I arranged a playtesting evening in a pub function room and sent invited all the people who went to the local board games club. And Paul was one of those people call and some of his friends came along we spent the evening playing border Reavers, and at the end of it poor and a few of his friends place orders for the game which didn't currently exist, which was very encouraging. And poor later join invited me to join his weekly gaming site. So I started going to vortex twice once or twice a week, twice a day for many years. So we've known each other since 2006, which is what 16 years now. I need to update the Gamefound page because I copied it from one of the earlier Kickstarter pages it says we've been friends for 14 years. Yes, so I that turned into my first publishing company which ran from 2006 to 2011. And was one of my like, core playtesters during throughout that time. What games

Davey  4:02  
did you get to the table quite a lot then what were your favourite games to pull out on your games?

Jackson Pope  4:07  
I remember a lot of Alhambra. We used to play Carta Haina. Wow. A grid. Yeah. That one? M by some German guy. building walls.

Paul Wilcox  4:23  
Demauer, Mauer Bauer.Yeah, that's good. Okay. Yeah. I still have that. Nice.

Jackson Pope  4:32  
Yeah, this Yeah.

Paul Wilcox  4:34  
It's going back a bit, isn't it now? So

Jackson Pope  4:36  
Stone Age? Yeah. Say that again. Thank you remember that. In theory, Paul and I get together every three or four months either. My family goes down to York because family comes up to Newcastle because we now live 100 miles apart rather than a mile and a half. But what we've coated isn't everything that hasn't happened that much in the last few years. So when we do get together it tends to be FlickFleet related, but hopefully we start reinstituting that, we shall see.

Paul Wilcox  5:06  
Yeah, we try to introduce each other to new games when we do get together more casually. So I've got Hadrian's Wall waiting to teach you when we next get together. To that you Yeah. Furnace. I think furnace will be another one. I think you'll enjoy it

Ian  5:23  
Cool. Lots to look forward to then. 

Davey  5:25  
Yeah, yeah. So you've kind of answered some of our questions, which is how long did you know each other? So yeah, you've covered that. But how did the you really see games like come into fruition?

Jackson Pope  5:39  
So in 10 2011, when I wound up my first company, having lost a chunk of money, and I said never again, and then three months later, an idea for a board game. So I started designing games almost immediately. That sort of pootled on in 2013, I think is part of National Games Design. Month, Academia. I started on a design that turned into Zombology, which was a semi cooperative card game of crazy scientists trying to cure a zombie apocalypse. Who'd have thought that using things like heating crystals and homoeopathy to solve a worldwide pandemic would actually end up as a topical subject. just inject bleach as Donald Trump said. 

Davey  6:28  
Yeah, yeah. So sort of everything. Yeah.

Jackson Pope  6:33  
So in the end, I decided I was going to make a small handmade run of Zombology. So I made 200 copies by hand in 2017. But then during that first year, Paul had the idea for FlickFleet. And then we worked on that together. And because Paul's got more free time that I have, he reckoned that he could probably do the manufacturing or a decent chunk of the manufacturing for this one. So he joined the company, we went from being nice as a sole trader and legal terms to it being a limited company with me imposed the two directors. And off we went to Kickstarter for our very first FlickFleet Kickstarter in 2018, which was November to December, which was an excruciating.

Davey  7:15  
It's Kickstarter, quite awkward to use. Is that why you've gone to Gamefound now?

Jackson Pope  7:20  
So again? Yeah. So the switch to game fan was mostly around the there was an announcement on I think it was the end of last year, Kickstarter said we're going to go to blockchain. Then they did like a two and a half page press announcement that basically just said blockchain or blockchain.

Davey  7:38  
FTS blockchain blockchain, 

Jackson Pope  7:41  
yeah, you provided no actual benefits to anyone except yourself there. And obviously, Blockchain I mean, Bitcoin is particularly egregious example. But blockchain is terrible for the environment. So we run happy with that. So we told them that and just after that game found came out with a press announcement saying we're going to be doing crowdfunding. And here are all the things we're working on to make it better for creators, here are all the things we're going to be working on to make it better for backers. Well, that sounds much better. So we'd already use gang founders pledge manager for three of our campaigns, who was a natural place to go once they opened up the beta two people who were as tiny as us. So I think at the point, we joined a thing, none of their campaigns have raised less than, like, half a million dollars or something crazy, but I'll tell you now we're gonna raise less than half a million dollars, but a policy that was campaign goes live on independent, prove me wrong, but the fact that we're going to come in under half a million dollars,

Paul Wilcox  8:39  
way, way under your nose,

Davey  8:45  
Who knows, you guys spend a lot of time Well, Paul spends a lot of time I guess, with quality control. I watch the YouTube video of you going through every cube, it's quite an arduous thing. I bet but it's it's it shows, you know, it shows you guys are passionate about your project.

Paul Wilcox  9:01  
Yeah. And I think to be honest, that's kind of one of our key motivators for doing this, because we are doing it absolutely the hardest way imaginable, making it all ourselves. But I've tried to explain it before, but the fact that we've now sold just over 1000 copies of the base game, and I know that I have manually made every single acrylic ship and all of those 1000 copies that I have checked and handled every single wooden component and quality controlled everything in every one of those 1000 boxes. That brings me a huge amount of satisfaction and pride. And that kind of makes it all worth doing. Really in fact that you know, people around the world are enjoying that.

Ian  9:40  
So yeah, I mean, crossing those videos as well. Like just the it wasn't just lip service, you know, you could really tell that you had that passion for the quality of the product that you're putting out. And I think that just really comes across and certainly from you know, the sets that we played with like everything is always perfect. I mean, it's a now it's easy to see why now that we've seen those videos? Yeah.

Jackson Pope  10:04  
Well, Paul hasn't said is he's also, we've also sold over 1000 of the three different expansions when you put them all together. And two of those are much bigger than the base game. So he's done a staggering amount of work 2000 boxes with FlickFleet in the last four years,

Paul Wilcox  10:19  
I am looking forward to making Xeno Wars partly because it's back to just being two colours of acrylic. Again, because the Box of Flicks 2 expansion I think we were up to in total with different thicknesses and different colours. I think it was about 13 different sets of acrylic, which just as a lot to keep track of all the time. So getting back down to two, that will be fun. 

Jackson Pope  10:41  
Keep it simple.

Davey  10:41  
Yeah. So you're upping the player count to two to four as well. Yeah, with with the new expansion

Jackson Pope  10:47  
Yes Xeno Wars is a is a standalone expansion. So you can play it as a two player game, if you just buy the Xeno Wars box it's an it's a game in and of itself. But if you combine it with the base game, then you've got enough stuff ships and different factions, the bits you need to play a two to four player game using any of the four factions in those two.

Paul Wilcox  11:07  
So we've introduced a turn order mechanic where the more whichever faction gets shot at the most, they will rise in the turn order for the next round. So it kind of balances out that everyone pile on the vulnerable ship fixes that problem fairly well. So

Davey  11:24  
yeah, I was wondering how initiative would work but I'm guessing that yeah, sorts that problem out?

Paul Wilcox  11:29  
Yeah, it seems it seems to work pretty well, actually. I mean, we have made it so if you have the boxer flicks to expansion, you can actually play with five players. Yeah, I find that actually yeah, I find that a little bit too chaotic for my taste, I will be honest. But it's pure chaos but but for is really good for them. 

Davey  11:50  
It's something that we really enjoyed about FlickFleet It was the the simplicity but also complexity. It's got enough, like meat behind it so that you can have some strategy about what you're doing. But then it's also you can you can teach it and what Yeah, five minutes or

Ian  12:05  
so I mean, the first time you showed me how to play yeah, I mean, the teacher was like five minutes. And we still had our first game done within 15-20 minutes. It was the the basic principles were very simple and easy to pick up. But then it quickly uncovered these layers of oh, okay, but now what about this now, what about this, and now we've added these ships. And now Now I'm flicking mines and try not to blow up my own ships, which I did several times. Yeah.

Paul Wilcox  12:31  
One of the things that was really satisfying about the UK games Expo was that when we had a crowd, you could see people had learned how to play just by watching other people play for a few minutes. And then were very keen to have a go themselves. And that that was that was really awesome. You can learn it that easily. And just to address the other thing you said that we we've really liked from the get go that it starts off as a very simple game. But the the tactical complexity develops, you know, as the rounds go on, quite quickly to like for saying you've only got those two actions, but they have to be different ones. And the order in which you activate the ships is important. You know, the order in which you do the two actions becomes critical. And it becomes a much more challenging game as you sounds like you've discovered, because you've only got those two actions for each ship each term with a Box of Flicks 1, which I think is in a way, one of the hardest, the harder expansions. The ships in that are phenomenal. But you don't understand why they're phenomenal until you've played a heck of a lot. And then they kind of make more sense. That's it? Yeah, yeah. And I'd like to say that was intentional, but it really wasn't.

Ian  13:46  
No, definitely. I think you're right, like the fact that someone can almost learn the game just by watching it. That's a huge testament to how well designed the mechanics are. We've already talked quite a bit about the in depth and fluidly but I kind of wanted to ask, what was the the genesis of that idea originally? Where did the idea for the game come from? And how was that sort of early stage of development? How did it go from, I think flicking wooden bits of fruit around in the early days. Tell us a bit about that.

Paul Wilcox  14:14  
Well, I'm one of our regular get togethers with Jack and I'd stayed up quite late playing flicking up the Western themes dexterity game, which I was so bad at it was unbelievable. But we really liked it. But then the next day, we went for a walk in a national trust property with our families. And to avoid our childcare responsibilities. We kind of engrossed in a conversation. And I said, Oh, wouldn't it be really cool if someone made like a science fiction dexterity game, where you flick spaceships round and flick dice off them as weapons? And Jack was like, Yeah, someone should do that. And then, you know, we had a very what three hour conversation in which we fleshed out how that would work, what it would look like what the mechanics would be, what it would feel like what we'd want it to feel like. And that was great. And then what? A few months later Jack had produced a prototype using I think it was like Early Learning Centre food items. So we have I think my tomato being a fighter we three

Jackson Pope  15:24  
we had a load of I think actually it was, I think it was IKEA, like, kids toy food. And so it was like five mil MDF. And there was like slices of bread and slices or ham and slices of cheese and burgers and buns. And so you could you could play food with this, like five mil printed MDF. And I thought, well, I don't have any chips, but probably enough to try it out. And my sister in law and her husband were visiting and I said, Matt, can you try going out with me? He said, Yeah, right. So I grabbed a couple of sheets of paper, hastily scribbled some dashboards on them with pencils, grabbed a dice, and I try a dye and need something flat that you can flick, they go tomato pepper, a couple of slices of bread. So the ridiculous thing was even with that, it was good fun. It was like Yeah, there's definitely something here. I spoke to after that spoke to a fairly local company who did laser cutting, and found somebody who could laser cut acrylic, they did me a couple of off cuts. My first attempt at them was like way, way too small, they were tiny little things, it's like never going to be able to hit that. But then it turned out one of my friends who was running a like a playtesting group in Newcastle with me. He just started at university and had access to a laser cutter in the lab he was in so he offered to do some laser cutting for me. So I bought some acrylic, he cut some chips for me. And off we went. And I mean, I've in my game publishing career, which now I think spanned six games, not all of which I've designed, it was the one that came together the fastest. It was just, yeah, there's something there. Book just need to tweak that a bit. change that. And within probably six or nine months, we have a working game and it hasn't changed a huge amount. Certainly from then, probably even from that first idea who

Paul Wilcox  17:25  
I would say it's it's completely recognisable from that initial conversation, the game has ended up being exactly how we described it, and how we and it plays how we wanted the game to play, we designed the game we wanted to play. And that's why

Ian  17:40  
I think it just is testament to it isn't is the fact that if it was that much fun to play, and it caught that quickly, when you had tomatoes and bread and cheese, then it's only going to get better when there's a bit of theme wrapped around it properly. Well,

Davey  17:54  
the core, the core concept is there, you know, and that's a it's a solid one, what was the decision to self published though, because that must have been a hard thing to go forward with and actually do like, there must be quite a few pitfalls that you will come across.

Jackson Pope  18:09  
So publishing ourselves, but not necessarily manufacturing ourselves. So I already as I mentioned earlier, I was already running your ISP games at that point as a self publishing thing with Zombology. So I was keen to do it through that. The tricky thing with manufacturing is because we've got like, I mean, even in the base game, there's three different types of capital ships, there's two different types of wings that those capital ships can launch during the game. So there's like, think when you include the different shapes in involved in the fighter wings, the followings and those, it's something like nine different shapes that you need to make. If you laser cut those, you set it up once and you say cut me some of those and you can cut one copy of those or 10,000 copies of those and it just takes time. Whereas if you want to go to professional manufacturing, you need nine different moulds with injection moulding, the mould is very, very expensive. And then the injection moulded parts are usually very, very cheap. So there's a point at which it makes sense and it when we priced it up, it was going to be something like two and a half 1000 copies. And with my first company which, which we didn't quite fold, but I ended up losing some money. I had been in a position where I had, I think over 1000 games in a warehouse just around the corner from my house. And I was paying 10 pounds a week plus fat to to warehouse those and I was just watching the cash I had in the company dwindle because sales were below the warehousing fees and I did not want to end up in that situation yet. So we looked into it and we worked out that if we did it ourselves as long as we got the laser cutter and that's what our first Kickstarter was forced to buy the laser That's because we didn't own a laser cutter, we worked out that we could do a print run of 200 copies. And just about make it affordable. As it turns out, that first print run was 400 copies 250, which I think was sold through the first Kickstarter. The second Kickstarter, reprinted that and added the first expansion, the third, added another expansion, the fourth, reprinted those three and added a fourth expansion. Come, we're going to again found in two weeks time for the fifth expansion. Yeah, so yeah,

Ian  20:36  
Paul's garage is just filling up. Overflowing or

Jackson Pope  20:39  
Paul's entire house is filling up.

Paul Wilcox  20:42  
I wish it was just garbage. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. But it is the decision was, I guess born of necessity, because we realise that any alternative manufacturing method, ie injection moulding, it was just at a scale we didn't feel comfortable trying to hit. And when Jack brought me on board, because we've been friends for you know, at that point, 14 years, we had long discussions about, well, how are we going to do this. And we came up with three ground rules, which are, as long as it doesn't, the business doesn't damage our friendship, as long as we're not having to invest a tonne of our own money. And thirdly, and perhaps most importantly, that we're both enjoying what we're doing, then it's worth doing. And we do every couple of months. Just check. We're still on boarded all those three points.

Davey  21:34  
Yeah, it's quite good value to uphold. Really. That's gonna keep you your company morale high.

Paul Wilcox  21:42  
Yeah. But I mean, the other side of manufacturing ourselves is, you know, I think because we've probably demonstrated the pride and satisfaction we take in making it. That's, that's kind of paramount for me now, I think. And that if we were having it made for us, we may lose that control. And I don't know how that would work for us. I don't know if that would still be fun. I don't know.

Jackson Pope  22:09  
Paul has previously described us both as control enthusiasts. Clearly a euphemism.

Ian  22:16  
Yeah. I was trying to think of the the nice way to make that comment, because I can relate, I think I would feel exactly the same. If it was, you know, it's my baby. If it was my versification Yeah, of course, you're gonna

Davey  22:29  
lose the agency, sometimes it could kill the passion or, you know, kill you what you originally wanted for the game, which you definitely want.

Paul Wilcox  22:39  
Yeah. And it's interesting, I think, because we're very aware that the game has accrued quite a following. Yeah, a small modest one, but quite a loyal one. And it's been an interesting journey. But I mean, I know some people are a bit frustrated that we've never kind of fleshed out the lore of FlickFleet if you like, kind of the backstory. And we've, we've quite consciously not done that, because we don't want to kind of bound the imagination of the players, or, you know, possibly stray a bit too close to intellectual property and property and get sued by Disney or something. I think, you know, with boxer flicks to where we actually invited fans to, you know, come up with ideas and things they'd like to play with. I think if we'd had said, you know, if we'd gone a bit kind of this is the universe, this is how everything works. We may not have had some of the ideas that they did come up with that were amazing, and things we'd never have thought of. So I think keeping it loose has actually been quite good. So in that instance, we're not control enthusiasts

Davey  23:41  
was a big round ship you had to make wasn't there, the number was at number 13, or 16. 

Jackson Pope  23:47  
Option 13

Davey  23:48  
Option 13. Yeah,

Paul Wilcox  23:51  
that started as a joke because the the campaign blew up, it was much more successful than well than we wanted it to be, to be honest. But we kept having to add stretch goals. And on the Kickstarter page, when Jack was filling in the announcements, getting our backers to vote on the next stretch goal, they'd be like, option one, option two, option three, and you'd overwrite the option one with I don't know, uprising cruiser or option to pirate gunboats. But for some reason, Jack left option 13 and just forgot, didn't realise it was there. So when we posted the poll, one of the options appear to be this mystery option. 13. So of course, that's about nothing. So of course, loads of people went for that one. And it became a bit of a joke. So I came up with kind of, well, I guess it's a bit Deathstar adjacent. Yeah, but the deluxe version had etching on two sides, which we're never ever ever doing. Again. It was insanely complicated to manufacture. But that took some time. It did really did. And it's just it's a lot Have acrylic as well with that. But obviously, we had to create rules for that and a dashboard and make it work. Which was really good fun actually. Yeah. Mid campaign. Yeah. But it is quite a cool looking thing. Yeah, so that was kind of our fan service really that one?

Davey  25:21  
And why not? Have you come across many pitfalls or any hurdles and problems you've come across? Yeah. Oh, God. Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

Paul Wilcox  25:29  
Yeah. Right. The main ones for me are storage. Like I said, when we started, we had grey and red acrylic. So I had two big stacks of that each sheet is roughly a three sized, we now have like significantly more than two different types of acrylics, they all need to be stored. When the first print run, we took leave of our senses for a while and we hand made all the boxes, which Jack spent, I think you got it down to about 22 minutes a box to make. Yeah, but that was, yeah, but that was a lot of work. So for the second time round, yeah, it 22 minutes each. So by the time we got around to the next campaign, it was like, actually, let's get these made. But the as with all these things, there's an economy of scale, and there's a tipping point at which it's worth doing. And to make the boxes affordable. that tipping point, the minimum is 400 copies. So we order boxes in multiples of 400. Which is fine until the lorry turns up at your front door. Yeah, yeah. With you know, like 1600 boxes. Cool. Yeah, that you then need to persuade your wife will fit in our house discreetly, somewhere honest.

Davey  26:47  
Did you tell her beforehand though? Yeah. Did you say there's a big lorry coming up and we're storing this much acrylic?

Paul Wilcox  26:53  
I did. I don't I don't think she quite I don't think either of us quite grasped what it'd be like and certainly with the last one when the acrylic lorry turned up with a pallet mover and dumped pallets of acrylic on the drive. And when the pallet mover withdrew the pallet actually collapsed under the weight of the acrylic. And then it's like yeah, we've got to carry all this in the house and put it somewhere. Yeah, that was not that was not my best day, but 100 kilogrammes was was a lot of acrylic. Yeah, yeah. And then there's the usual issues of it's it's kind of like that having the the work life balance. I think when you're working in your own garage on a project you're passionate about is easy to let that slip a little bit. Yeah, you know, and suddenly my daughter's 18 When I'm sure she was 4 last time I looked at kind of not quite that

Ian  27:44  
Sounds like maybe your wife will remind you of that when the when right

Paul Wilcox  27:48  
yeah, I choosing it's on her that one but reminding yourself to take breaks is important. And then the big one was I guess I got a little bit complacent with a laser cutter and I destroyed it. You know, I caught fire and luckily, you know, there's a bit of smoke damage to the garage but other than that I managed to extinguish it before it caught anything else. But you know, that was

Davey  28:14  
wasn't a fit of rage then was it was

Paul Wilcox  28:16  
no, no sadly not I'd like it's just a mistake, I did what I'd always done and then just didn't do one of the last processes which has removed the thing I've cooked from the bed as I switch it off. So it didn't do that and then didn't see that obviously the laser would set fire to something in the bed of the laser cutter and then leaving the cut acrylic sheet on acted as fuel basically. So it was only when smoke started pouring out of the extraction hose that I realised something's not right.

Davey  28:45  
quite lucky it didn't go any any worse than really.

Paul Wilcox  28:48  
Yeah, I think yes, that yeah, I wake up in a cold sweat worrying about that. But as a result, I've adjusted my protocols and you know, and it cost us what 4000 pounds and I guess in total about six months production so it was about what four months to get a new one. And then we had a few issues with the installation and running of it to start with so it slowed us down a bit. Pretty good. So that will never happen again. I hope

Ian  29:12  
Laser cutters don't set them on fire. Yes, it's a top top tip for anyone. Yes. Into laser cuts. Yeah,

Paul Wilcox  29:19  
it's very common to do though it's very easy to do. And it's usually because you do get complacent or you cut the material you're not used to cutting so someone was telling me they they've they've actually destroyed three through fire. And one is if you just cut normal wood. If there's like a little pocket of SAP and the laser hits it it can explode part of me is now really wanting to try that

Davey  29:47  
you just have to go outside 

Jackson Pope  29:48  
with itYou see what i'm working with here gents

Ian  29:54  
Paul keep pushing for getting the second laser cutters. Experiment

Davey  30:00  
Yeah. Yeah.

Ian  30:04  
So with with all of those various challenges and fires, amongst other things that you've had along the way, if you could change one thing about how the development and journey to release of FlickFleet went, what would be the one thing that you would change? Or are you 100%? Happy and have no regrets whatsoever?

Jackson Pope  30:23  
I think personally, if you were to ask me, it would probably be. So when we started the company, we had almost no money in the company, we have a tiny mailing list. The only product we've made up until then was Zombology which at that point, it may be sold at copies or something. And we went to Kickstarter hoping to raise 10,000 pounds, but we think it was Yeah, yeah. And in hindsight, that was utterly crazy. And I can't believe we pulled it off. Because we didn't literally had no marketing budget, we didn't spend didn't run any ads didn't do anything. We sent an email to my mailing list and then crossed our fingers and have the most uncomfortable month imaginable. We had a 12,000 pound target. And we achieved that with not in seven minutes, not in four hours, but with four hours to spare, have a 30 day campaign. So you can imagine how excruciating that month was, so stressful

Davey  31:26  
shaking,

Jackson Pope  31:29  
really unpleasent, and so thankfully, the second, third, fourth campaigns have all been much more successful than that. And each one has done better than the last one. And because we were successful the first time, we were able to spend a little bit of money on a marketing budget. And then the second one, we spent a bit more in the third one, we spent a bit more. Plus, of course, our mailing list has grown each time and the number of fans of the game has grown each time. So it has become easier. But yeah, that first campaign was just deeply, deeply unpleasant. So yeah, we I think we funded, we were 101% funded come the end, the target was 12,000 pounds, we raised 12,127 pounds. And then 2% of people's cards would decline. And so we actually ended up with 99% funded. So yeah, it was a it was enough. Yes, we get in a little bit

Davey  32:27  
it got you off the ground.

Jackson Pope  32:29  
Yeah. Yeah. brought us over the line. But yeah, it was horrible. 

Ian  32:33  
How about for you Paul

Paul Wilcox  32:34  
good. Yeah, that's that's a really interesting question. I've been sat listening to Jack thinking, well, if I'm honest, we wouldn't do that longer campaign. Again, if we'd known what the the mental turmoil and anguish, just having it run for that long would would cause we wouldn't do that. And we certainly haven't done it again, and won't ever do that again. Two weeks is fine. So that's one thing. I agree with Jack on that one. I do wonder in retrospect, knowing what we know. Now, if we wouldn't ever have the handmade the boxes. I think it was by necessity at the time, but it was such a huge drain. On the physical time that we had. I actually think we maybe wouldn't kind of wish we hadn't done that. Yeah, there's little things I think we we had to reject the ramming rules, because they were overpowered. And that always felt like a little bit, just a wish we'd got that right, right from the start. But it worked for us at the time, but then we didn't realise people kind of game the rules in the way they did. Rather than we'd always intended to be a thematically absolute last ditch manoeuvre. Yeah,

Davey  33:46  
people always try min max, though, don't they? So they try and try and bend the rules or try and get as most out of it as possible.

Ian  33:53  
I mean, I'm pretty sure you rammed me at least three times last. Yeah.

Davey  33:59  
Yeah, yeah. It was really good fun that one actually, it was really good. Yeah, enjoyed it. Yeah.

Paul Wilcox  34:09  
But the version of the ramming rules that's coming in Xeno Wars is the definitive retroactive rules, which is how I think they should always have been if we'd thought about it differently originally. That's, that's kind of been my, I think my my three things. I'd like to say there's something about the shipping process, but I can't think what I would actually change it just is what it is, but it's my least favourite part of the whole process.

Davey  34:34  
This hard for everything at the moment with shipping, isn't it? This is the kind of UK scale.

Paul Wilcox  34:41  
Yeah, but it's so time consuming and I don't know it feels so you know, some of the packages we send off you just kind of hoping they get where you've sent them to.

Jackson Pope  34:53  
Just have to accept that there's going to be a percentage of them that either come back or just disappear. Yeah, you've got a recent, sir.

Ian  35:03  
But I can imagine that especially given all of the care and attention that you've put into every single element of every single component in every bag in those boxes, to then have one go astray, or even to come back to you, not having reached where you willing to go. I can I can imagine that every everyone probably hurts a little bit. It doesn't.

Paul Wilcox  35:22  
Yes, it does. And we have to pay the shipping again. Often. Yeah. And often when they come back, you've no idea of why they didn't get there. And trying to find out is often a very long winded, laborious, and constantly fruitless process, which is fine.

Ian  35:40  
send another one and have that come back.

Jackson Pope  35:43  
Especially Brexit, because the shipping rules have you got to have your paperwork absolutely perfect. Or it just comes back. And it's like, well, in what way? Is this not perfectly? You will never get an answer to that question. In

Davey  35:58  
a big company, who should know this are having problems with stuff getting stopped at the borders? So it's, you know, it's one of those, unfortunately, so with your box are, what was the inspiration behind it? And obviously, someone else someone else does the boxer or do you help with that track as well.

Jackson Pope  36:17  
So I do almost all the graphic design, but the boxer is done by a friend of a friend. Okay. So when I'm the guy who is one of the guys who is the best man at my wedding used to work because so does actually work in computer games. But for a while, he worked in a computer games company in Sheffield, with another guy who was one of the artists there. So he was a computer games artist.

Davey  36:43  
It's got a very computer game feels kind of like retro. Yeah, like kind of 80s aesthetic.

Jackson Pope  36:49  
So I'm not sure how he ended because he ended up doing the box off the second game I did, which was it's alive back in 2007. He did two different boxes for that. He did the box art for Carpe Astra which was the third game I published. He did the box up for somebody else for a game called Ice Flow which was a different publisher. But the sort of the slightly cartoony style of his art, I thought would be a really good fit for FlickFleet. And it's now sort of it's very much the it is the FlickFleet aesthetic is just riches art is

Davey  37:27  
fits in very well. I like the level the finger flicking the other day to the ship as well, as a nice little touch. Yeah,

Jackson Pope  37:34  
it made me I mean, I think I told him what the game was like in I gave him the five minute it's a game where you flick spaceships around and flick dice from the top of spaceships that other spaceships and he came up with three sketches. And that was our favourite and genius was great.

Paul Wilcox  37:55  
And it's been nice to to involve him more as well. So with with Xeno wars, we actually asked him if he could come up with sketches of what the alien species would actually look like. And then kind of his ideas for what the ships could look like. And that then fed into our two dimensional design process. And it was it was really cool having another kind of artistic brain on board to kind of you know, think it through and, again, bring different ideas to the table. That was really cool. Did he end up doing the Yeah. Did he end up doing the border for the hive dashboards? Yeah, because they look different, don't they? Yeah, that's really cool. Yeah, not there's anything wrong with your graphic design, Jack, but it was nice to have

Jackson Pope  38:37  
a lot wrong. So a lot of things we do ourselves, obviously, pulled us all the manufacturing, I do the graphic design, I also do the books, social media and marketing, and all that kind of stuff. And it's not because I'm good at it, or, I mean, Paul is actually really good at the manufacturing. But in my case, it's because we haven't got the money to pay someone else to do we hire an accountant to check where we haven't royally screwed things up before submitting them to HMRC. But other than that we do everything ourselves just to save money

Davey  39:12  
without having that external source there. Would you would you like to bring someone else in? Or are you happy? Just the two of you.

Jackson Pope  39:19  
I think for FlickFleet for the making of FlickFleet. I think we're very happy with the two of us. Yeah. I think we're ready to do another game. I'd be tempted if we have the money to get a professional graphic designer or artist involved a bit more. It would be very nice if we had someone who had half an idea what they were doing, doing the marketing and stuff

Davey  39:43  
You've done pretty well, though.

Jackson Pope  39:45  
I've done all right, but it's been flailing around in the dark, largely. So any success I think is more by luck than judgement. So yeah, I mean, I think those things are things that I do out of necessity and I don't think I'm good at them but I I think I've scraped by.

Davey  40:03  
I feel like you've been too hard on yourself. And you've done, you've done really well. 

Jackson Pope  40:07  
 it is worth mentioned, as I mentioned, we're not gonna get half a million dollars

Paul Wilcox  40:14  
it is one of the challenges is that, you know, you end up wearing a lot of different hats. And we have to support each other in the wearing of those hats as well. So, you know, I jack looks at spreadsheets, and he enjoys that my look at them and something dies inside me. But I have to understand how they work to support Jack make and being part of the decision making process that goes into the business side of it. But it can feel quite lonely at times. I mean, one of the things we've tried to do through like Twitter and social media is linking with people who maybe have more experience and possibly skills than us. And try to just, you know, politely ask questions and check. We're doing this right. And I mean, the hard and fast one was we need an accountant, we cannot screw that side of it up, we will get in trouble if we do. Yeah, so obviously Jack Jack could sorted that out before I came on board. But but it is sometimes it's hard to know what to ask, you don't know what you don't know until you discover you don't know it.

Jackson Pope  41:17  
I was just gonna say we're quite lucky with FlickFleet that we've got such an engaged fan base, because we can do things like go to the flick flick group on Facebook and say, here's some ideas we've got for the dashboards with new ships, what do you think, and we'll get good ideas come back off that things to improve. I often do things like, here's a few sketches we got from the artists for the box. In fact, for I think we're both for the box of flex campaign. We let people vote on which of which of the options they wanted. As the artist, we said to the artists, it's got these crazy things in it, fill your boots, and you came back with three cool sketches. And then that went out as a vote in that during the Kickstarter campaign for the backers to help us choose the box that they thought would be most attractive, rather than just me or Paul picking one. Yes.

Davey  42:10  
That's quite a video game concept, though. That's kind of how their design process goes with a lot of early access games and stuff like that. So that's obviously probably from your previous experience has kind of leaked over a little

Jackson Pope  42:23  
traditionally I am trained as a software engineer so that there's a lot of feedback loops in that. So it's all about incremental development make you make small changes and get feedback from your customers on Yeah, they think so I guess some of that bled into the way that we run Eurydice Games.

Davey  42:39  
But if that's nice or interactive, though, it's a good way of doing it. But also leads on to one of my other questions, which is, what advice would you have to someone who's just has a ball game idea wants to get out there and self publish themselves?

Jackson Pope  42:56  
That's an interesting question. Because I suppose I have done a bit of proper self publishing, where you go to a factory and say, maybe 1000 copies of this, or 1200 copies of this or whatever. But the vast majority of our experience is making it ourselves. And if you're going to do that, you got to be absolutely sure you know what you're getting yourself into those first 400 copies of flick lead to poor 14 minutes to laser cut, and the 40 minutes to cut out the dashboards, make the boxes and back them all up. And so it was a big old chunk of work. And I was doing that in my spare time around a young family and a full time job. And Paul was doing around a part time job he and his family. So if that's the route you want to go down, you've got to be fully aware of what you're letting yourself in for the vast majority of people who decide to self publish their board games will go to Kickstarter to raise the funds. And if you're successful that awesome, you're clearly better than we were at our first attempt to that because we did but only just but then they'll go to a factory in China probably and say maybe 1000 release? We don't I don't have any recent experience in that. So I mean, that would be what most people would do, and I'm not the right person to ask. The only thing I will say is, you want to be careful of how many copies you get, because the more copies you get, obviously, the cost per copy comes down by a lot, but the cost, the total cost goes up. But then you've got that number of copies, and if you've sold 90% of them, and you can probably sell the last 10% through shops and things but if you sold 20% of them, you've now got 800 or three and a half 1000 copies that you've got to pay to warehouse and you've got to try and sell through shops and distributors, which is very, very tough. I did it with the first company. But there's like that was pre Kickstarter, and there's like 1000s More games per year now than there were back They're trying to get into retail and distribution is going to be way, way harder than it was back then.

Ian  45:06  
And Paul's only got so much room in his house that he can let you. Yeah, there's a limit to how much he can warehouse for you

Jackson Pope  45:13  
just have a tent up in the back garden I think we should be okay.

Paul Wilcox  45:19  
That's what happens if Xeno Wars issuccessful. Yeah.

Jackson Pope  45:23  
Your daughter's about to go to uni. So that's, that's an extra route. Okay.

Paul Wilcox  45:26  
Yeah, she has made it explicitly clear. I am not allowed to use her room in any capacity. I know. But just going back to your question, I think, I think you need to really, really do your homework and check it is absolutely the way you want to do it. And I would encourage anyone in that situation to talk to people, much like Jack and I, to see like, what are my options? What actually does it involve? And am I happy doing all those elements? Or do I need help from other people are the bits I don't know how to do or I just don't want to do? And you've got to do your homework on that front. Because there's an having said that however well prepared you are things will come up. You haven't foreseen. I think in the last couple years, kind of the shipping crisis, no one could have foreseen that. But if you're sat with, and no 2000 copies of a game in your home, with no way of shipping them anywhere, because you, you know, you didn't get your sums, right on that point, you've made a big mistake.

Jackson Pope  46:29  
And even if you didn't get your settings, right, but the underlying situation has dramatically changed. So I was hearing at people last year, who had been quoted $1,500, for a shipping container from China to America. They'd run their Kickstarter, they charged the customers for shipping and then gone to the factory made the game. And then they actually tried to ship the containers. And it's Oh, no, it's $15,000 of container because the shipping prices, it's like, all of my numbers up until now were baked in on 1500. And it's gone up 10 times. Now we'll do

Davey  47:04  
it's quite volatile market at the moment. Yeah,

Jackson Pope  47:07  
I mean, in some ways, the way we went has been good, because it protected us from all that kind of stuff. Because we get most of the stuff in the UK, a little bit comes over from Germany. But yeah, I mean, even as Paul says, even if you're you are getting the made for pin China or whatever, if you're self publishing, you're the sales person, you're the marketing person or business administration person, you're the accountant, you're the manufacturing consultant, you're the art director, you've got to do all those jobs, or pay someone to do them for you. The route we've chosen is unusual and a bit crazy. But it does allow us to fit in the gap between the sort of I mean, if you go to China, and that you're almost certainly looking at a minimum order of 1000 copies, might be able to get away with maybe 500, if you're lucky. But we can make a print run of 200 or 400. Because we make them ourselves and we can be fairly confident that we're going to sell all of those two or 400. Because the Kickstarter sells 250 or 300 of them. And then we've got ways to get rid of the last few.

Paul Wilcox  48:15  
And another interesting issue, I think is that you've you've got to be careful that what you want to do is what you end up doing. And I'm aware there's been quite a few people who really their passion is game design and creation, who end up then getting stuck with feeling like the manufacturing or the publishing becomes a full time job and their passion for the making and creating kind of get squeezed out. I mean, that is something we definitely have time. So yeah,

Davey  48:45  
sounds like you've also had to learn a lot of new skills in through that process as well. So

Jackson Pope  48:51  
absolutely, yeah

Paul Wilcox  48:52  
I mean, I had never even see, but I didn't know laser cutters existed to discover it, I'm going to need to learn how to use one. So that was that was a bit daunting. But you know, I've managed it, old dog new tricks and all that. But

Ian  49:08  
I think it comes across that you're both you're both extremely modest about what you've been able to do so far, which is admirable but know clearly, you've both acquired or leveraged existing skills to a huge extent to make this project happen. And like I said before, the end product just speaks for itself. It's of such high quality for something that has been self manufactured and self self published is just pretty incredible. So I'm sure that everyone who's listening who's played the game would agree and for those of you that haven't, why not get a copy now? Their bedroom, you know, make some room so his daughter can come back on the holidays.

Davey  49:46  
And there's you've obviously got your game found launch soon as well. Yeah,

Jackson Pope  49:51  
that's right. Yeah. So Xeno Wars, which is the standalone expansion, so you can play that as a two player game or you can combine it with FlickFleet for up to four player games. And that introduces two new alien species, the Hive who are organic, and will spit parasites at you that take care of your ships from the inside, deeply, deeply unpleasant, I'll warn you about that. And the Storm who are fast and very powerful, but also a little bit fragile, so you got to be quite careful with them. You got to nip in do some damage and run away again, that's coming to Gamefound on the 4th July, because Independence Day the aliens are coming. Makes perfect sense. So

Paul Wilcox  50:29  
we're just did the original FlickFleet game will be available within that campaign as well. So if anyone's missed out on that, they don't have to feel that missed out on the three four player iteration.

Jackson Pope  50:40  
Yeah, so you'll be able to get Xeno Wars, the base game, expansion one which adds scenery, asteroids, objective tokens, a civilian fleet for your mine layers plus minds, cloaking ships, all kinds of other cool things. Plus, yeah, there's a limited supply of the two boxes of flicks, box of flicks 1 and 2 that will be available during that campaign as well. So yeah, that's the big boxes. Yeah. That those are all the same boxes. So that's for identically sized, small, but very full boxes, in some cases, very, very full boxes. But yeah, we we are hoping to add a big box. So we're speaking to some Hungarians about laser cutting boxes for us. But that will probably be an add on that needs to be unlocked, because we need to make a certain number of them to be financially viable. So I think the plan is that once we reach a certain financial certain packet total, then at that point, you'll unlock, practice and add on as well. And you'll be able to hold all your boxes in a big laser cut books.

Ian  51:47  
What could be better? Yeah, exactly. But so lots of exciting different mechanics there and new stuff coming to Xeno Wars as well. For each of you. What would you say? Is your your favourite element or mechanic or favourite standout part of FlickFleet for you personally? What's the bit that you just love?

Jackson Pope  52:05  
I'll let Paul go first? Because I know what he's gonna say.

Paul Wilcox  52:08  
Yeah, well, you might not actually I've been giving this some thought on my drive home today. I actually have two the Hyperspace Kraken tentacle, which is this. Yeah, that's my, that's my absolute favourite. That's a fan created concept that when we read, it was like, This is ridiculous. This is insane. And then it was like, but it might work. And then obviously, we mocked it up and play tested it and was like, this is just phenomenal. And we would just never have thought of this

Davey  52:41  
talk talk me through this tentacle. How does how does it work?

Paul Wilcox  52:44  
Okay, you have six little circular lumbar discs that you spread around somewhere in the play area, usually around the middle, roughly the circumference of a dinner plate. And at the start of each round, you roll the D six, and you put a purple activation cube on whichever one you rolled the dice for. At the end of the round. These are little rifts in the fabric of space and your actions in the play area of disturbed the hyperspace crack and asleep through the tears. But the one that's got the activation cube on it activates when all the ships have have their terms. The tentacle comes and the bottom of it is a circle that slots over the number disc. And it's probably what four inches long, I think just about when you rotate it 360 degrees and basically anything it touches, it does an immense amount of damage to because it's a giant space tentacle.

Jackson Pope  53:36  
Also also shoot at ref tokens. And if you do that activates a second ref token. If there's an enemy ship that's wandered a bit too close to to a risk taking you might want to shoot that rather than the ship itself.

Ian  53:51  
This sounds a lot like the mind strategy.

Davey  53:54  
Trying to shoot the mind yes, successful Funny.

Paul Wilcox  53:58  
Funny you should mention that but my my other favourite is actually the mines. But for very personal reasons that we it was an idea that I think I had suggested it when we were actually getting nearer to manufacturing FlickFleet to start with like, Wouldn't it be cool if, but we we spent ages trying to come up with rules that kind of made sense thematically for how they would work. And when we were getting very close to expansion one being ready to go to Kickstarter. We're like, right, Jack came to my house like right, we've got to nail this down. We've got to find a way to make this work. It's so cool. We've got to have them we'd even designed how they'd look before we designed how they'd work which is backwards for us. And then we we just we said well what if like we launched them like bomber and fighter wings you know you touch they come onto the play touching the ship that you flick them to launch them and like saying it now it's so obvious that that was the solution but it honestly took us about eight months to get there. But but we played it and it was just like this He's amazing. I just looked at Jack and said, this is more than a game. It's a system that we just, we just burst out laughing. But that's one of my favourite moments of working with Jack, it was just that it encapsulated why we do what we do. And the way we do it. So every time I play with the minds, I have that sense of this isn't a game. It's a system. Fantastic. And I actually really like the Mind Blast template piece as well, because it's just such a hefty piece of acrylic. I love it. Yeah, it's fantastic. Yeah,

Davey  55:33  
it works as well.

Paul Wilcox  55:35  
And actually, the other cool thing about that was originally, the the bit in the middle that you put over the mind was actually cut out. And then so you could slot Yeah, but my wife pointed out, but that's stupid, because obviously it's going to tilt and be uneven. And it's just like, you just need the picture in the middle and anything sits on everything's the same thickness. And it was like yeah, oh, yeah. Yeah, she's right.

Davey  55:59  
Because then it just sits on top of everything nicely.

Ian  56:02  
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. With the mind template we did. And the beauty as well as the fact that when you shoot a mine, you will naturally move it a little bit as well. So you can never be quite sure what you're gonna blow up.

Jackson Pope  56:17  
There's been a few situations like that. So in Box of Flicks 2, there were the both the ECM template and the the phase ship. So that's some. So the ECM per ship can launch a field that protects other ships. And the phase ship basically teleport. And in both cases, we were trying to think about all these like complex rules for how that might work. And it's like, you know what, what we need to do in this situation is flick something. And so the ECM template became you flick a little token, like you do remind and where it stops, the shield appears. And the teleport thing became your flick a little token, wherever it stops, you can move to if you want. So it's just like, yeah, keep it simple. In Doubt, flick something. So yeah, my ask that question. I've spent that whole time trying to think what my answer to that question is. And I think I would probably say two things. Number one, sort of harks back to the very beginning of FlickFleet So there's a number of scenarios in the base game, one with a big planet, one with an asteroid field before asteroids existed as something we sold. And in both of those cases, there was a very much a sort of homebrew, let's just use something from the house feel to it. So we ended up with a bowl or a plate as the plan is to put a bowl or a plate facedown on the table last year planning if you crash into it, you die. And I really liked that. And we've even found the perfect bowl in IKEA for like Sixclear where it's like, I don't know, it's like 15 centimetres or 20 centimetres in diameter, and it's made of bamboo in such a way it looks like this is like almost a perfect hemisphere. And it's made of bamboo. It looks like it's a gas giant because it's got alternating bands that could be clouds around Jupiter. And the mind is sorry, the asteroids we just upang coins for. So I really like that, that sort of let's just grab something and use it in the game. aesthetic. But then that leads into the second thing, which is the asteroid that is really cool. Especially the wedge asteroid, which when you hit it shatters and becomes like the worst possible thing to try and move around because it's now a little bit's an asteroid that all over the show. So yeah, asteroids and using random things around the house for flip feet for me.

Ian  58:53  
Sounds like there's definitely some like crossover marketing opportunities. There should be little little FlickFleet shelf edges in IKEA next to the ball. It's all compatible with literally

Jackson Pope  59:04  
that's my next stealth trip to IKEA. Go round, just placing FlickFleet sneaky posters. They're all the things that I think would work in gaming. So reading of course all of their five mil thick MDF food. I see. Tomato peppers.

Davey  59:22  
Being one of your expansion packs. Yeah.

Jackson Pope  59:25  
You gotta watch out for that bread coming up the light. I mean, it's gonna wreak havoc, especially with the tomatoes.

Paul Wilcox  59:32  
Launch the lettuce

Jackson Pope  59:38  
There you go. That's Box of Flicks 3 sorted

Ian  59:42  
The fantasy expansion. Yeah, the food expansion. And then finally, we had a question from a listener as well. Rich wanted to know what your favourite board games are outside of FlickFleet. In my mind to even consider other board games these days.

Paul Wilcox  1:00:00  
My all time favourite remains Carcassone. It's a classic, it's, it's probably the more abstract end of what I enjoy. But it was the first game that kind of sucked me back into board gaming. And I just loved the simplicity of it. And that you can, you know, you can play in a very mean way or a very relaxed chill way. I just really liked I mean, I think there were way too many expansions. But you know, catapult Yeah, that late show? No, that was awful.

Davey  1:00:35  
I have not played with the catapult one. So

Jackson Pope  1:00:37  
you're a better man for it.

Paul Wilcox  1:00:41  
But it's a game I would never say no to.

Davey  1:00:43  
Yes. Yeah, I was talking about caucus on the other day and how I haven't had time to get into the table recently. But it's a it's kind of a staple game of mine as well.

Jackson Pope  1:00:52  
So funnily enough, I always used to say Carcassonne onto that question. And, and it probably is in my top all time games, but if I'm honest, I very rarely choose to play Carcassonne on anymore. I still think it's an awesome game. Still got it. I love it. I've introduced my kids to it a bit. Probably my top three, but it's probably no longer my all time favourite, I would say probably Race The Galaxy. And maybe 7 Wonders as well. Since especially since when the last almost 10 years having kids games at the shorter end of the spectrum have become much more appealing to

Davey  1:01:35  
7 Wonders do you play with the expansions or just the core.

Jackson Pope  1:01:39  
This is gonna sound ridiculous from a man who is just about to put the fourth expansion for his game on game, but i'm not really a fan of expansions. I do own Leaders and the extra extra player boards like that extra was the other ones. That's the one for 7 Wonders but I never played with them for Race. I own I actually own alien artefacts and The Gathering Storm and the second one Rebel Imperium or something like that. And I tend to play with the cards from those to give us a bigger deck to choose from and that wider range of scar works but I don't play with the actual rules from the expansions that makes sense like the the the

Davey  1:02:30  
rules variability in the game without too much complexity, or conflict. So

Jackson Pope  1:02:35  
I tend to find that, personally, my personal feeling is that expansions tend to tend to take a very nice game that I find really clean and satisfying and overcomplicated. So I don't mind things that add to I don't mind a wider range of things, but not necessarily a more complicated game off the back of it which expansions usually tend to.

Davey  1:03:00  
Okay, well that's that's great. Thank you very much for joining us. Yeah, it's been a pleasure to have you on and we look forward to flicking some new alien races around and or infecting the galaxy with

Jackson Pope  1:03:17  
it's just horrible. It's quite literally go right through you.

Davey  1:03:25  
Well, it's been a pleasure. Thank you very much. Thank you and with that, our final turn is wrapping up and victory points about to be scored. Thanks everyone for listening. If you've enjoyed the show, please like subscribe and review on your podcast player of choice. If you want to get in contact with the show on our socials you can email us on players@whoseturn.co.uk, check us out on our Facebook page Whose Turn Is It Anyway podcast or Instagram page @whoseturnpodcast and TikTok @whoseturnisitanyway, we'll be back again with another episode. So until then.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai