Episode 6: Niche Number 1's - Round 1

Adrian  0:26  
Hello, and welcome to Whose Turn Is It Anyway a podcast or that our board gaming group and board games. I'm Adrian, your current first player, and I'm joined today by Davey, Rob and JP

JP  0:37  
I'm back again. 

Adrian  0:37  
He is, this episode's main topic will be niche number ones. This is currently our first term but unlike a Splotter game, first turns here don't really matter, so we'll go straight into our second turn

So it's that time where we talk about you and me and we talk about all the good things and the bad things that have been and we talk about hex

JP  1:03  
Rob's look at Rob

Adrian  1:06  
he's absolutely done

Rob  1:10  
I tried to hold it in

JP  1:11  
It got a better reaction from you than Kerley

Rob  1:21  
I could have never have done that in ma million years. That was fantastic.

JP  1:27  
Carry on Adrian

Adrian  1:28  
That's alright. That's okay. So Davey what have you been up to over the last couple of weeks?

Davey  1:33  
So I finally had that tournament. I keep banging on about went 2-1 in the end. Warhammer40k. Yeah, it was right. And then I've played a plethora of games. But the one I'll probably talk about is the was in Las Vegas. Royale. Yeah, pretty much. It's just a fun little party game, we will roll dice this couple of casinos that you can go to they have abilities. But it's mainly just area control. Not much else to it, but quite good fun. Everyone shouting at each other when you you know roll another one or whatever and you don't need it and you take it someone else's spot because it has quite a cool little elimination mechanic with two people roll the same value. It eliminates both of those so other people can cut in. But yeah, good fun.

Adrian  2:17  
So I've not played this is it? Whoever has the most money at the end wins? 

Davey  2:22  
Yes, it's three rounds, or three rounds of rolling until you roll your dice. So there's you start with six dice and one one big dice that counts as a double value. And yeah, you you have you roll into everyone's out of dice and then you earn some money and then you have three rounds of that. 

Adrian  2:40  
Nice.

JP  2:41  
The rubber the game is when you pick your number for which dice for the casino it goes to you have to pick all of the dice that's rolled that number is kind of like you know is a lot of push your luck. Do you want to put five of your dice eight dice onto one casino early to lock it down and get the most money? Or do you want to put little itty bitty single dice on the casinos to spread your luck and lots of swearing.

Davey  3:05  
There's lots of swearing good fun.  I think Stewart got more het up than Scythe. So that was quite fun. Yeah. So yeah, that's what I've been doing rolling dice pretty much.

Adrian  3:17  
Sounds good will have to give it go at some point. Yeah, definitely. Definitely. Yeah. Yeah. Sounds like an option. And Rob, what have you been up to?

Rob  3:26  
I've actually been trying to recover from going to Vegas. We had a fantastic time. So we managed to get Perseverance to the table for us playing that and it was fantastic. Dinosaur work replacement game. Great fun. Really enjoyed it. And we had a good laugh.

Adrian  3:43  
Yeah. Episode One. Yes. See you defending your wall? Yes. from the incoming dinosaurs.

Rob  3:49  
Yeah. It was there was some tactics that kind of screwed everybody over. 

JP  3:53  
Yeah Davey

Rob  3:54  
brilliant.

Adrian  3:56  
What did you do this time

Davey  3:57  
i breached and then it messed JP up and messed me up. 

JP  4:00  
I said you do know in the breach, Davey that you're going to lose followers for sending dinosaurs. I know but you're going to lose two of your camps, I thought you bastard

Davey  4:09  
So I thought I would then control the area

Rob  4:10  
area but the six points that you lost doing that ultimately cost you the game?

Davey  4:15  
Yeah, because it meant I didn't end game scoring. It also scores per camp in there as well. So I was I was my one that I then own. So now I've lost points. Okay, so

Rob  4:27  
I know you were six points off, because it was Kerleys first time playing Yeah, naturally he won. And Davey mutter the immortal line. I'm never playing this again. 

Davey  4:40  
I'm never playing it again, not Episode 1

Rob  4:43  
but it was a great game

Davey  4:44  
It wasn't because because of the outcome, i have mixed feelings about it the first time I played I think

JP  4:50  
something about it. You don't quite enjoy it.

Rob  4:54  
But we played it to player I think my personal opinion the sweet spot for that game was three but I growth because when you're playing to you've got the third dummy player, dummy player which just gets in the way. And 4 players it took a long time to play.

JP  5:10  
I don't know if it did because I think we haven't done in just over two hours and actually for for a Mindclash Game that ain't bad,

Rob  5:18  
felt like a long time between turns because the brain was yeah, and there's so much on the board to look at and do. But I really enjoyed it. I thought it's fantastic. I look forward to doing the second episode at some point. But it was a bit much for my, my tiny little brain to process all in one go. So no, I enjoyed it. And kind of that's what I've been up to.

Davey  5:40  
I'm intrigued about Episode Two. Episode Two looks very different. Yeah, it's different. Yeah. Looks a bit more like Mindclashy.

Adrian  5:49  
Looks busier. Yeah. Looks busier. It'd be interesting to see if it adds a different game with all of those extra

JP  5:55  
I've played it solo but it definitely feels different 

Adrian  6:00  
doesn't count does it

Rob  6:03  
always justify the price. justify the price

Davey  6:10  
He's playing solo since he got what's that game called? Too many? Too many. Too many bones. Yeah, I think that's too many. Yeah.

JP  6:20  
Six, six out of six. Yeah,

Rob  6:25  
he's legally obligated.

Davey  6:27  
Yeah, he's been paid hasn't he

Rob  6:29  
in his marriage contract

Adrian  6:32  
He's getting those premium health ships.

JP  6:36  
On the way coming soon,

Adrian  6:37  
go on JP, what have you been up to?

JP  6:39  
I played loads, absolutely. Loads and loads and loads of stuff. Actually looking for the list going God, what do I pick but I'm gonna pick Game of Thrones. Because and Davey sniggering in the corner. But Game of Thrones is second edition. It's an old game. It's, it's, it's a bit clunky. And the way the rules work, because it's an old game, but I love it. It's fun. It's the fact that you've all got obviously, the houses from you know, the Starks, the Tyrells and Lannisters, etc, etc. And you're kind of putting orders on secretly, and basically, stabbing people in the back. It's a Game of Thrones style. And just a good kind of a good event to get to the table. We get it to the table about once a year. Don't we, I think it tends to,

Davey  7:26  
it's been less but only because of COVID 

JP  7:28  
probably right. But it's kind of one of those things. It's a bit like Twilight Imperium and the fact that it takes a long time to get through. 

Davey  7:35  
It's an event 

JP  7:36  
it's an event.

Adrian  7:37  
Definitely a day.

JP  7:38  
It's a day game. You don't really want to play it at night. We tried once and it was like three in the morning.

Rob  7:43  
Takes a long time to for friendships to heal. Yes, that's probably why it's a year after the initial organising

Davey  7:49  
the choir for the start in true. Doo doo doo.

JP  7:53  
Absolutely all the playlists and everything else in between. But no, it was it was it was great to get it to the table. We played with the Mother of Dragons expansion. So you were Davey you were the Targaryen was your first time? 

Davey  8:07  
Yeah, I was sexy Daenerys from the film no the TV show not the books. Whatever. 12 Yeah, you just want to clarify that Yeah. Okay.

JP  8:18  
And yeah, we had a good old skirmish I pushed I think the game towards the end and overextended my reach and got a kick in my agent who was playing as the Arryns when I was playing. Yeah, so you said you're not having the when I'm going to be your which you did. I went back into my little filthy corner and essentially, dragons came and dragons came in and you lost one of them. Didn't you mate your last one? Yeah,

Davey  8:44  
last one through odds

JP  8:45  
Through all the rules. Yeah. 

Davey  8:48  
Bad luck Yeah 1-144 or something or other

JP  8:57  
1-12

Davey  8:58  
A double 1-12, Yeah,

Adrian  9:02  
there's two fights one got rid of one skulls got rid of one knight yeah. And in one skull was the dragon

Davey  9:08  
that was double scold into fights

JP  9:11  
for the rest of us around...

Davey  9:12  
Some may call it skull fucked

JP  9:17  
You were definitely skull fucked. Yeah, but I really enjoyed it. I never not enjoy that game. I think we actually had to end it a bit early. Because we kind of went to time and people had things to do

Davey  9:29  
went on a lot longer but there was a lot we just couldn't remember and

Adrian  9:32  
it's been a while since most of us yeah played we sort of took a while so it was good fun.

JP  9:39  
The Targys won you win the game did you make so yeah, yeah,

Davey  9:42  
I know. I said I won and I didn't think I enjoyed it. I just the feel bad moment. I didn't enjoy it but I did enjoy the event and everything else is a game I do come back to and I started putting maybe up for a while because I that skull screwed me over before when I fought Kerley

JP  9:58  
I think that's Just you trying to kill Kerley screwed you up

Rob  10:02  
the amount you fight. Yes the amount you fight people in games anybody else pulling that skull because you're trying to kick everybody's arse?

Davey  10:12  
No, I was I was I was very diplomatic. I didn't fight a I didn't only fought you. I think that was it pretty much

JP  10:19  
you you played it well, actually, you were trying to persuade other players to come and do this and which is exactly what you need to do as Targaryens you need to try and cause chaos amongst the other players to stop them ganging up on you. But the one thing I will say before we kind of wrap up is I actually want to kind of play the game again, and leave Targaryens out for a few times and just concentrate on just the Westeros board

Adrian  10:44  
Inter-house rivalry Yeah. Because other than that escalation part

JP  10:48  
yeah, I finally realised that the mother of dragons with Targaryens ins is essentially just like a different game mode. 

Davey  10:53  
It's like a mini game and in its own strengths in the fact that you have to try and deal with that one player with the dragons whilst watching your back while watching your back. 

Adrian  11:01  
Yeah. And this was it, I was on my way to head over to Essos. Yeah, do as you do, just go and kicks and Targi arse and then basically, Chris walked over with his Starks, while I was sort of our head over there, I'll just take a bit of your land. So as a pull a u-turn in a boat, and go and teach him a lesson. That that's then when the Targs were able to increase

Davey  11:25  
You can't do that if Targs are on the board whereas I think it's more balanced game to play without that

JP  11:33  
I think, I just miss the, we don't have to watch you back from the whole Targaryens and the other houses and I just want to concentrate the game on Westeros and actually just have the standard game of Game of Thrones, which is you still gotta watch your back. But you I think we probably would have done more alliances or mini alliances between people to help kick other people and then backstab people. Anyway, probably talk about Game of Thrones forever. Enjoyed it. Brilliant, fun. See you next year, probably just because it takes forever to get to the table. But what about you, mate?

Adrian  12:02  
So we played Great Wall, we did finally got the kickstarter to the table. Yeah. Everyone else seemed to have fun. I think I'll put it that way. 

Davey  12:12  
You didn't. You didn't enjoy that much did you

Adrian  12:14  
I didn't. I really didn't click with that game. The mechanics look fantastic. And I think I remembered a lot of the early Kickstarter stuff when I was sort of thinking about how the game would play out. And then with this final version, it's more linear than I was expecting. When you look at all the generals and a lot of the advisors, they are all working towards hitting what's on the other side of the wall. It's almost opposite to perseverance, which is about what's behind the wall. Yeah, all your victory points come from hitting the other side of the wall, which I suppose makes sense thematically. But I was hoping for something along the lines of well building, you know, apart from just giving you a 15 victory points, you can build an engine around building those walls around building those little fortifications

Davey  12:58  
having different avenues of victory. Yeah, nice. Yeah, I do understand that. 

Adrian  13:02  
And so it's like, first game tactics are a bit a bit wobbly. Totally hands up on that one. I was, as I've mentioned in previous podcasts, I was totally worried about teaching the game and making sure everyone got it. And I was kind of watching what everyone else didn't

JP  13:15  
You did a teach though. By the way. It was a good teach. Thanks. Yeah, Even Davey was quiet for most of it was good.

Adrian  13:23  
Yeah, the teacher wasn't too bad. Found a lovely on BoardGameGeek found a lovely cheat sheet that I printed off and laminate and gave to everyone. And I think that certainly helped the teaching and being able to look it up. But I just wasn't as enthralled with the game as I thought I'll absolutely give it another go.

Davey  13:40  
I really enjoyed it, I really enjoyed it. 

Adrian  13:41  
Yeah, you could see everyone else around the tables really enjoying themselves. I was struggling to read the board. I think I had an expectation in my head that was higher than what the board game was delivering.

Davey  13:51  
Yeah. Sometimes the high expectation thing when you come to something can sometimes like destroy your own enjoy of it

JP  13:59  
or going about we talked about kickstarter hype from the previous episode. So it might have been a culmination of that, because you've gone through the whole campaign of getting excited about this seeing all the changes, potentially. And now finally get your hands on it. Yeah,

Davey  14:14  
well, maybe that's why they leave it three years to get your games at the height can die down and you'll enjoy it.

Adrian  14:19  
When it's on a shelf for six months. Basically, after I got the Kickstarter, it was four to six months, I think that the sat on the shelf and I've read the rulebook, and I've watched some videos and have sort of gone back through the Kickstarter pages and again, built up that hype a little bit. And there just wasn't the there was a great mix of mechanics really enjoyed the mechanisms that are in there. But the way it culminated in the way it will fit together just left me a little bit disappointed.

Davey  14:47  
Oh, do you feel like it's going to be not a one and done but maybe like four or five and then probably done because you've probably worked out a strategy of what's going to kind of win the game because it does seem like there is only one avenue of victory okay yeah Tambo had a had tactics cards

Adrian  15:05  
which is what I had as well and I thought well because we're going after tactics cards I'll find another way for victory and I think it's quite clear having looked at it again and see how other people have played it that is if your guy does tactics cards you have to go tactics cards and if I'm competing with tempo I absolutely have to do the tactics cards there's no oh well I've got a weird mix of general and advisor I'll go down a different route no you've got to go down whatever mix you can pull up those first locks you into that thing? Yeah, which isn't the worst thing in the world action but yeah, I didn't know it left me wanting by then I got frustrated with it halfway through and on the way home pulled all the game out looks at all the generals look to all the advisors was really sort of pouring through it just left me feeling a bit like no this isn't what I thought it was gonna be 

JP  15:50  
Were you holding like a flame like I'm gonna I'm gonna torch you

Adrian  15:56  
yeah, no, not quite.

Davey  15:59  
We do have some good music though for it we enjoyed the

Adrian  16:02  
we played The Hu with six or six versions different guest artists performing on it did you want The Hu with Evanescence. You can have that did you want the Hu with whoever else it was

JP  16:16  
You got to love Amazon Music they go I don't even

Rob  16:20  
I didn't know that was a thing that is amazing.

Adrian  16:22  
The Hu are like a Mongolian like metal metal heavy metal. It's all like throat singing and all that it's great but not when you've got the same song just on repeat 9 times

Davey  16:36  
Adrians not enjoying the game just listening to... anger levels rising

JP  16:41  
if anyone doesn't know what we're talking about, check out TikTok out because of the we use the clip of the song on the Great Wall video. So just have a listen to that you'll hear the throatiness. So check it out.

Adrian  16:52  
Well, I think that's a good summary of what we've been playing for the last couple of weeks. So let's move on to turn three

today's turn three, our main event will be niche number ones. We've probably all watched some top 10s to gain an understanding what people are really enjoying. This is kind of like that, but less helpful. We'll be talking about very niche circumstances and what our number one game is in that niche circumstance. So for our first number one, Davy do you want to tell me about your favourite game that everybody else hates.

Davey  17:32  
So I've got a couple but I'm going to probably run Pipeline as the one that everyone else seems to hate and I seem to love just Yes pretty much like manipulating stock markets and I guess felt like everyone else their work was you know, for me I was quite enjoyed it it seemed to click and the other one Food Chain Magnate but I don't know if everyone else hates it yet. Mine's not made up yet. Yeah. But I feel like they're teetering towards hating it

Adrian  17:59  
as a heating and plumbing person did you just say that it probably felt like more like work I thought 

Davey  18:08  
for them people are working behind a computer probably dealing with stats and figures a lot more than me whereas mines are physical, the actual the actual pipes instead. So yeah, that was kind of manipulating the oil stocks and doing everything else behind the background. So yeah, I do I do get the irony though.

JP  18:26  
Who's next, whos next

Adrian  18:27  
Rob, off you go.

JP  18:29  
A game that I love that everybody else hated was Dice Throne. I thought it was streetfighter with dice. I loved it. I thought it was great. We played five players, which was a bit of an awkward number. And I had a fantastic time.

I think we had multiple games going on, doesn't do five players.

Davey  18:46  
I think so far. Two or three to two. Yeah,

Rob  18:50  
yeah. So, but I loved it. I thought it was fantastic. Completely random, which I think is probably why the strategy guys hated it. Because you couldn't plan two or three moves ahead. You rolled your dice. You had to deal with it there and then and that was it. But I absolutely loved it. That way I have a lot of fun playing it even if everyone else didn't.

Davey  19:09  
Yeah, a lot of dice was thrown that night. Yeah.

Rob  19:12  
Luckily nothing else was

Davey  19:14  
Yeah. JP nearly swinging punches.

Rob  19:19  
I think there's one Hurley's reaction to it. It was fantastic but I think me and Ian really enjoyed it. And everybody else seemed to hate it.

Adrian  19:26  
Do you think it was just the lack of strategy that other people didn't like or

Rob  19:30  
I think so I mean you guys play a lot heavy games a lot of heavily

JP  19:35  
that's not why I didn't like it

Davey  19:37  
No, why didn't like it over.

Rob  19:38  
So why didn't you like it

Davey  19:40  
think it was too many players. I think a one v one game. It would be really fun. But for anything more than that rather than like a duelgame is good. It didn't they haven't they've done a jewel version of it as well. No,

JP  19:53  
I think he's just 2 players

Davey  19:57  
But yeah, 2 player games i'd enjoy it

Rob  20:01  
but I like the lighter game. Like you like size and Twilight Imperium. There is no way I could stay focused for that length. And there's too many ways to win. Like what you were saying I quite like the fact that certain games have just one straight now I know what I'm doing is know where ongoing. I know what I'm trying to do. And I for me too much choice that was probably the biggest problem I had with Perseverance was that there was just too many options. And I it took me you guys hit hit the ground running. And you know, Kerley had nearly double my points. Because I it took me so long to actually get going. But once I did, it was fine. But I think for me too many choices is a bad thing. Yeah. I quite like a narrow thing. And I think that's why I enjoyed that. I just enjoyed the game and I enjoyed the interaction between around the table. And for me a lot of the times it isn't the game we're playing. It's the it's the interaction. That's why I love Game of Thrones. I don't enjoy the game. 

Adrian  20:01  
You just like stabbing people in the back. 

Rob  20:10  
Yeah, but I enjoy though watching those interactions with everybody else. And it makes the event it's not a good game. But the players around the table make it a wonderful experience. So for me, Dice Throne

JP  21:22  
Yeah, I don't like it.  Not enough in it

Adrian  21:25  
Do you like that? No one else likes change.

JP  21:27  
Or you know what the answer is Cloudspires. Now we talked about this on a few episodes ago. I think I meand Davey, in fairness to you mate. We're the only ones in our entire group that like it. Yeah. So much so I've had to find new people to try and extend the...

Davey  21:45  
Finally get the fabled three to four player

JP  21:47  
Yeah. Yeah. Do you like heavy complex games?

Rob  21:52  
As I stated a few minutes ago, it's probably not for me, but it's a bit of

Adrian  22:00  
One Direction, you're not going to have any choices to make. Go.

JP  22:03  
I'll happily give it a go

Davey  22:04  
it's quite fightery. It was like little fights that happen. 

JP  22:08  
We'll see.  But yeah, I'm not gonna go on about it. Because I've, we've listened to Episode previous can't remember.  We've talked about it. But yeah, that's my favourite game that everyone hates,

Adrian  22:18  
Brill and mine is Axis and Allies. I totally get why people don't like it. I think there's a lot of reasons why people don't like it's World War Two thing that's not for everyone. It's a six to 12 hour game. That's not for everyone

JP  22:30  
Robs out

Rob  22:32  
can see but my eyes just went really wide

Adrian  22:35  
player elimination in a 12 hour game. So that's not for everyone out. Oh, yeah. If you If the Germans run over the Russians, they're gone. 

Rob  22:43  
Jesus

Adrian  22:43  
smashed into next year. 

Rob  22:44  
So they making teas for the next eight hours. Or they go home?

Davey  22:49  
Yeah, home. Yeah. Well, how many players iIs it?

Adrian  22:52  
Six or seven? It never played? It depends. It depends also. So there's two versions there's, there's loads of versions. But there's two main differences. You can play like a smaller version of it, where you get Americans British. Italians maybe don't get Italians, you get German, Japanese and Russians. And then you can have the eastern and the western map that that you combined together into a bigger one. And then that I think that does come with Italians and some extras. I think it's a fantastic game. It's got that little bit of economy, and lots of strategizing and tactics. And it's a real nice mix. If you're understanding that three hours into this game, you might have to walk home. I think it's one of the better games of that type, which is genuinely ruthless. Some of like the TI's and stuff like that can be a bit toothless occasionally. X and allies for me has a punch just before the has real bite to it. It's an older game.

Davey  23:49  
Do you get to push little pieces around the stick.

JP  23:52  
Like a German commander,

Adrian  23:53  
I'm sure you could, I backed the War Room on Kickstarter. She's basically Axis & Allies kind of version two and that there is an Upgrade Pack for sticks.

Davey  24:01  
Is there a name for these little sticks as well? No, is it

JP  24:06  
what my unit pusher in my unit?

Adrian  24:09  
Can we not call it that whatever we

JP  24:13  
just realised that connotations of what I've just said. But I'm keeping it in.

Davey  24:19  
It's in a box of his whip upstairs.

Rob  24:22  
That is officially what it's going to be regardless of what else you've come up with.

Adrian  24:28  
We have also polled our group as to what their choices were for this and I think the one that stood out for me was Kerleys. He said Game of Thrones, at least he know that knows that Davey hates it. So, but I think again, it's

Davey  24:44  
one teetering on the edge of it. Yeah, 

Adrian  24:45  
we've talked about it before as well as there are some old school mechanics in there. There's some backstabbing, I think there's plenty not too like if you're not into it. 

Davey  24:54  
It's just the randomness that I don't I

JP  24:58  
It's the Tides of Battle cards that Davey hates Yeah. Which is like randomises the battles slightly.

Adrian  25:05  
Our next niche number one favourite games under 20 pound Rob, tell me about yours

Rob  25:10  
for me. It's a game that sounds ridiculous. But we played it a lot on the train. We played it with our kids on holiday. It's Love Letter. Yeah, I think it's it's such a simple, brilliant. It's got enough strategy in there to keep it interesting, but it's accessible enough that my wife our seven, eight year old children, were playing it on holiday we were playing in a bar course we were on holiday. But you know, it was in like our wives loved it. And my wife doesn't really enjoy board gaming

Davey  25:50  
It's only because it's the only love letter she's got from you.

JP  25:55  
When I said I was gonna get her a love letter I think she had something else. Something else. But for me, it's a brilliant party game you can teach it in two minutes and I think it cost about 11 quid I think if you're if you're travelling with your family just get it it's fantastic 

Adrian  26:12  
is it tiny as you say comes in a bag most of the copies do. And interestingly enough, both Ian and Kerley mentioned Love Letter that I was going to share.

Rob  26:21  
We played it on the train when we went to the expo in

JP  26:25  
Tabletop Gaming live was 

Rob  26:26  
in inner Alexandra Palace, sat on train for two hours. You bought Love Letter and before we know it, we were in London and we had such a laugh and there were people watching us play it trying to figure out what the hell we were doing. And we just had so much fun playing it and it's fantastic. 

Don't get the other versions though. No, no get the

JP  26:45  
don't get the Infinity Gauntlet one, it is shit

Adrian  26:50  
I think I think traditional love letters, probably the best of the bunch for me. Yeah,

JP  26:54  
can't go wrong with it. 

Adrian  26:55  
And it's probably probably enough. We don't have to explain too much more than just by watch a two minute learn video and be done with it. Going and JP, what's yours?

JP  27:04  
Mine's mine. I had a game. I think Davey's gonna talk about it. But then I recently acquired Super Skill Pinball Ramp It Up. And, man, I am all over it. I'm addicted to this Roll & Write Games.

Davey  27:19  
Why do you keep making little weird dinging sounds and stuff? hitting all the bumpers? Yeah.

JP  27:23  
Absolutely love it. It's a stupid, like concept for a gaming thing. Yeah. Pinball is obviously about reflexes and fast pace and all that stuff. And I'm playing a board game version of this thing. But essentially, you got two dice, you roll and you pick one and you're moving the ball to the targets across this table. And it's just really fun. I've got it sat next to my work computer. So every now and then, like our lunch is coming up, bust out of a game for 30 minutes score highest they possibly can and put it away. I love it. I love it.

Davey  28:01  
So it's rather than anyone remember the windows like XP pinball thing? They load up onto that? Yeah.

JP  28:07  
A lot of nostalgia obviously, like for tables, and I'm only playing the the the initial one, the easy one. But yeah, the kind of increasing complexity with yours. Yeah. And you get the best bit about it. Like, I'm really excited. Yeah. The best bit about is when you go multi ball, 

Davey  28:25  
MULT-BALL

JP  28:25  
multi ball and then you get a second ball on there and all hell breaks loose and then your score double up. And

Davey  28:33  
I mean, those does it come with just in truth, it's just to just to dye your share

JP  28:37  
the dice is in multiplayer, which to be honest, I bought him also multiple, multiple and multiple, then you just share the same two dice. And everyone picks one of the values, crossing little targets off scoring points. Brilliant.

Adrian  28:48  
Well, mine is cheaper than 18 pound. Mine's about the 11 pound mark. Oh, God Bandido. I don't know if you've played this or not. It's a that comes with a deck of cards that are just basically underground routes, little L shaped little T shapes. And then some of them have got like a little hand with a torch on and you're trying to close off, they're just dead ends, you're trying to close off all the routes for bandido escaping. So you each have a hand of three cards, you each player card. It sounds really simple. But there is like knowing that there's three left bends in the deck, knowing that there's three right bends in the deck, like means that there is a level of strategy of trying to line up certain, right that routes going down that way and that routes coming around the corner, we get the right sort of T junction we can turn those two routes into one and we're further along. And so it's yeah, it's a really simple little game. It will take up most of your living room table most times because it is their life's sprawling Is it? Yeah, they're they're sort of long, thin cards. So it does kind of can go in any direction on your living room table but it takes 10-15 minutes to play. I think I've played it more than any other game in my collection because If you're going to put dinner in quick game of Bandido, or, you know, don't know what to pick game wise, have a game of Bandido while you talk about which game you're going to play next is really simple, really quick. So that's mine under 20 pound.

Davey  28:48  
Well, mines have a similar ilk, which is Saboteur, which is another one where you put cards down and kind of create a path. But there's usually three outcomes at the bottom, you don't know what they are, unless you play a map. It can be played with quite a few players. And there's, it's a standard thing like Avalon everything else where you've got a traitor in the midst. And that person is decided at all. And they've got to try and stop everyone else from getting to the gold and everyone else trying to go to try and get to the gold and you're just playing cards and you can break other people's tools so they can stop playing cards and other people can fix them. So it's got quite a nice little bit of politics on it as well. For quite a simple game it can it can get quite heated and just it's just good fun. Really. It's really good.

Rob  31:02  
That potentially was going to be my first choice. Yeah, but we played we've played Love Letter more, we played saboteur on holiday. Yeah, with kids wives, and they absolutely love it

JP  31:12  
It never fails, like it's a game I always wheel out to anybody and it always lands. It's brilliant. Like I've never had a bad experience. But

Davey  31:19  
no, I brought it to our little game started and we all played it there.

JP  31:24  
Oh yeah. The other night with it. Yeah. Yeah. With kind of new non gamers that you

Davey  31:30  
said Yeah. And it just it just goes down really? Well.

Adrian  31:34  
It sounds like an interesting one that kids will play if there's a bit of politicking in it is that yeah, well, those two sound like they're gonna mesh is a nightmare and have argument.

Rob  31:45  
There's a small there's a chance that somebody is a Saboteur. Guaranteed. So the fact that they're trying to figure out if somebody is evil, my daughter loved being evil. She loved it. And like she genuinely like as soon as we outed her as a Saboteur. She was so smug. Like again the game is literally route planning. Yeah, it's you know, it's 10 minutes, but it's the enjoyment of everyone getting involved with it that really makes the game special which is brilliant, because it

Davey  32:19  
doesn't have to be over the top politicking it's just some some some being like Oh, you're the saboteur and like you just play your roads normally I know I'm leaving it to the right direction and then did and that's all I've got. Yeah, that's

Rob  32:31  
Also there's a first player to get the gold scores more points. So you want that you're trying to time it on your turn where you do it so potentially you might take somebody round a longer way so that you can get it on your turn which makes you look guilty. Yeah, so everyone starts accusing everyone of being a saboteur if it's not obvious who the saboteur is, and looks at these games take 10 minutes that's so much fun in 10 minutes

Davey  32:58  
and it's a set space as well you know, yeah, because it's x amount of cardsand x amount of width so you know, the space you'd be playing you don't have it's never like it doesn't reach out too far either. So

Adrian  33:11  
it does it does sound like we've recommended the cooperative and the noncooperative version very similar games

Davey  33:16  
Sound is very similar. Yeah.

Adrian  33:19  
Nice. And next niche number one is favourite game that needs upgrading you JP tell us all about it.

JP  33:27  
Keep it quick Keep It Simple my Terraforming Mars if only if only to mention the bloody player boards where you put your cubes and if you knock that bad boy you keeps going everywhere so I did

Davey  33:40  
the first edition looked like a knockoff yeah well

JP  33:43  
that stock photos for you for those cars Yeah. Like all love

Adrian  33:48  
is the same ones that they print now with it I haven't changed that stock photo 

Davey  33:52  
No Yeah, but I say first edition is the as the upgrades because I'm using Kickstarter one as well 

Adrian  34:00  
Still has the same art on it. 

Davey  34:01  
Yeah true

JP  34:02  
the only thing that's changed or has been pimped up is now they've got dual layered player boards thank christ that's a lot better and they've obviously released 3d tiles and all that

Davey  34:11  
That's on Kickstarter still there isn't it?

Adrian  34:13  
No you can buy it you can buy the retail big box which come with all the plastic

Davey  34:18  
but only as a big box not with the game not you can't do it as

JP  34:22  
I got the small box which has just the tiles and and not everything else. Okay, but that was through the Kickstarter but I don't know anyway, but I think Terraforming Mars fantastic game. Brilliant game one of my favourites up there. But component quality is shite.

Davey  34:38  
I very nearly didn't play it. i You remember when you put the post up saying Come play this game and I looked at it and when I look so that looks awful. I was wondering I'd said it's dogshit but basically it looks so bad. 

Rob  34:52  
Good job you didn't 

Davey  34:57  
you can edit that bit out but, but I came and I played and I'm glad I did because it's one of my favourite games.

Adrian  35:05  
But there's that your choice as well. And

Davey  35:08  
yeah, pretty much this is the game that you have to upgrade really because it's now everyone in the group has I couldn't imagine playing it as we originally did.

JP  35:18  
Yeah, why would you go back to just yeah, let's get the old mats out everyone and put the cubes on let them slide around off their own accord Yeah,

Adrian  35:24  
I do genuinely think that Terraforming Mars led to the dual layer player board movement where suddenly they included it in lots of games because they realised how rough it was not your board with that many counters on your progress. And suddenly, every game was you can have a dual layer player board.

Davey  35:39  
We had all our experience with Eclipse before with a single board

JP  35:43  
First edition 

Davey  35:44  
first edition Yes, hanging slightly off the table because it just fits on the table. And first and first person went bang knock their cubes everywhere as I tried to work out what they had then someone else. They're not theirs. And it was just absolutely bedlam. So dual layer player boards do it

Adrian  36:01  
thing to thing by yours. I'm gonna go with Quacks I think. So Quacks of Quedlinburg. It's a bag drafting game. So all of these little cardboard pieces go into a bag, you're gonna put your fingers all over it. If you play it multiple times, those little cardboard pieces are going to basically fall apart wear down. I think it's fair to say that most people either buy third party pieces to replace the cardboard, or will buy the little like custom 3d printed, like I have, I've got little custom 3d printed protectors that go around it in the in the colours that match or they'll get coin capsules or something like that. Capsule seems to be a really popular option to mean that that game actually will last a couple of years rather than the 10 minutes if you didn't upgrade and get some bits and I was looking

Davey  36:49  
at some of the plastic like moulded the actual token ones that they do they do this look lovely. Yeah, it was like 90 quid for

Adrian  37:00  
yeah, by the time you pay tax into our country. Yeah, absolutely. It's quite expensive. So I've got my little 3d printer or 3d printed little custom protectors for them took ages doing those one at a time. But yeah, I think it was necessary and it's a great game. So it's well worth spending that little bit of money in if you if after a couple of plays, you've enjoyed it. I think you're not going to change your mind on

Davey  37:21  
it. Once people get their sweaty hands on it because they're like, Oh, we're gonna pull this out. We're gonna pull this token like beads of sweat dripping off them into the bag, you know?

JP  37:29  
There Wotsit fingers? Yeah. 

Adrian  37:32  
Lovely. 

JP  37:33  
If you are in America Cheeto's. Yeah. 

Adrian  37:37  
Go on then Rob, what's yours?

Rob  37:38  
For me? The the two that I kind of had in mind. I've recently been upgraded. So Descent second edition with all the tokens on the board has been cleared up by the app. Right. Okay, so it's nowhere near as fiddly or anything like that anymore. That app handles everything beautifully. And the other game I thought it needed upgrading was Battlestar Galactica, which of course, they've just re skinned as Unfathomable. And and yeah, they've done a fantastic job with it. So for me, I I kind of play games that you guys have, I don't own an awful lot of games. 

Adrian  38:17  
So they've all been pre upgraded already. 

Rob  38:19  
Exactly because you guys love a Kickstarter, and I always play the game 

JP  38:24  
Witcher. 

Rob  38:25  
Yeah, but I haven't got it yet. So it doesn't count. Like, you guys are very experienced gamers, and you instantly know, worth buying a dual layer mat for this particular reason, whereas I just get to come and play them. Yeah, so for me, the upgraded part, you know, has already been done. In the majority of cases

Adrian  38:48  
from our group we had Ian mentioned Wingspan, which I'm surprised that Becky didn't mention Wingspan seeing as though she's just spent quite a bit of money on upgrades. 

JP  38:56  
That's an interesting choice because that game is quite beautifully produced out the box

Adrian  39:02  
Well, the bit that I bought to upgrade my wingspan was the scoreboard they do like a licence to nice scoreboard because the scoreboard is like a little bit of really thin cardboard and just doesn't seem to match the rest of the quality. Yeah, so I bought a little scoreboard which was pretty much my only upgrade for that game that I found. But again, little cardboard pieces of the all the food is cardboard, isn't it if you want to upgrade that to plastic Yeah, wood nice wooden sort of character character versions of it I totally understand. I think that's a pretty good pretty good choice for that number

Davey  39:37  
Start using real birds next as well in

JP  39:39  
real worms. Yeah why not

Adrian  39:43  
Our next number one is the favourite game that you've lost your shit over.

Davey  39:47  
We started with you're looking at me so I guess I'll start

JP  39:49  
It's all of them isn't it Davey

Rob  39:51  
it's not a real it's not an enjoyable game if you lose your shit over at least part of it

Adrian  39:56  
Yeah, it makes it a better experience for everyone else

Davey  39:59  
I enjoy it afterwards. So once I've had time to reflect and laugh about my own my own actions, but yeah, so we'll go back there's a lot of mentions of Game of Thrones this episode isn't. But Game of Thrones, I will usually lose my shit over. I've, I've shouted about me that's these cards again. Soon as these cards come out, I seem to the skulls the skulls gravitate towards me and I fucking hate them.

JP  40:29  
Just for everyone's benefit these schools are these cards is what you draw when you attack and defend right and then they add like a positive kind of combat power to your your strength. And sometimes they have skulls on them, which means the opposition loses opponent regardless of the outcome of the combat. And it's usually Davey's favourite cards that he likes to draw, or get drawn against against him

Davey  40:52  
So I've worked out everything I can, right so I'm going to win this even if he plays his highest card. I've won this and my year is taken that area. Happy days. Go in. Oh, so I've just lost the unit. Oh, great. So that means I'm now weaker for this next attack. Oh, that means I've pulled another skull. Oh, the whole plan is falling apart. Great. And then

JP  41:11  
a Game of Thrones.

Davey  41:14  
Yeah, it's gonna make God laugh. Tell him your plans. And then probably I've got one other which is so and another one is New Angeles, which is cool. Politics game pretty much where you play as a corporation and setting the Netrunner universe of 

JP  41:31  
Android

Davey  41:32  
Yes, exactly And yeah, it was a lots of people voting to take power and dominance. And I think I got a little bit too pushy or boisterous. No one has voted for me. And I got really annoyed by it.

JP  41:48  
It's a negotiation game. Yeah. And you come heavy with your negotiations, and no one wanted to negotiate. So yeah, it's I call it the argument simulator. Yeah, because that games essentially what it is, but it's good fun. Oh, brilliant. It's a fun game.

Davey  42:05  
I really enjoyed it. 

Adrian  42:06  
But nice. Yeah, Rob

Rob  42:09  
Well, for me, there's quite an infamous incident has already been mentioned on the podcast several times, which was Captain Sonar, but much like the fishing trip from Gavin and Stacey, that will remain a mystery for the time being. For me, it wasn't even a moment where I got angry. So it wasn't like a table flipping moment. It was when we were playing Dead of Winter.

JP  42:32  
Yeah, and I just remembered this...

Rob  42:33  
Tambo played the ultimate, ultimate round where he promised to do stuff. If anybody hasn't played Dead of Winter. It's a five person up to five people bit like walking dead where you've got a camp and you've got a community of that camp. So not only have you got to fend off zombie attacks, you've also got to work together to get food and supplies and weapons 

Davey  42:55  
and clean the camp 

Rob  42:56  
and clean the camp now. So we assume that there is a chance a 25% chance that somebody is working against the everyone. So there is a traitor element to it and we've played this game for probably an hour and a half. Everything was going well there was no element

Davey  43:15  
We were bossing it

Rob  43:15  
there was no sign of a traitor for an hour and a half and Tambo was the last person and he promised to clean the camp. And he just literally smiled at everyone and went off and did his own thing and won the game he played an absolute blinder

Adrian  43:32  
I was going to say it sounds like you're mad that someone else has really done it. 

Rob  43:35  
Honestly, it wasn't I wasn't even angry. I was sad. And he played it so well. And that is a gaming moment that will last that will remain.

Davey  43:49  
He was have the last turnwasn't like he was up in the camp guys when 

JP  43:54  
I got this

Rob  43:57  
Honestly he was so good that? Honestly, I don't think I'm over it now. And this happened about four years ago, four

JP  44:05  
4 years ago. 

Adrian  44:05  
Yeah, very nice. JP 

JP  44:08  
X Wing.  My story of X Wing is I went to UK games Expo that a little demo of X Wing. You know what I got some time to kill with my brother played a little game for this is fantastic. And we had a great time we had two Tie Fighters and an X Wing, just pulling them out and shooting each other. All that kind of stuff. Obviously sound effects were included. So I bought a copy at the expo and probably picked up some additional ships took it home and then we started having some games and then more people are kind of buying it and go yeah, let's get it. And then I don't know. After about three or four, maybe five, six plays. I just realised that I'm absolutely shit at the game. And I can't pilot an X Wing save their life and I just ran into asteroids all the time because I don't know maybe I'm just not spatially aware. No, because if anyone hasn't played it, you have these templates or these little mini ruler things to determine like, wherever you're going like a small bank left turn or a sharp left turn or right turn or barrel rolls and all that kind of stuff. And, and yeah, I just found I'm just not good at this. And I just, I've never fallen in love and fallen out of love with the game in so fast. And I just wanted to burn it. I just thought I can't do this anymore. Like, I hate this game.

Adrian  45:27  
I always enjoy the people fly ships into their own ships, which means if I remember they can't fire Yeah, I just know watching the rage on their face in that game when they've realised they've got the wrong turning circles or they've

JP  45:39  
Or the initiative order is wrong

Adrian  45:42  
I can understand it. I really enjoyed that game.

Davey  45:45  
JP, the dyspraxic pilot.

JP  45:48  
I kind of know this game. I'm done. And I sold it to Ian and I'm out all by yourself mate

Adrian  45:57  
Carcassonne probably sounds the least likely 

JP  46:01  
rage over Carcassone

Adrian  46:02  
Yeah, absolutely. So how your stack of tiles are built up maybe a bit of a complicated see how all I need is that one corner piece, there's six or seven of them. And now I'm playing against one, maybe two other people. So odds are in my favour. And I watch over the next three or four turns everyone pull out the one piece I want to win the game. There was one game where I genuinely we got near the end, there's maybe 20 tiles in this stack. So for those that don't know very quick explanation of Carcassonne is you pull a tile, it has like a city a bit of a field and a road or some combination a bit, maybe a church on it, you place it down so that the city like edge lines up with the other city has to match up doesn't it has to match up. So if you can't pull the right piece quite often you lose out on big points for either fields or cities or something like that. And yeah, there's a couple of times where I've been all lined up to get massive points out of a city with a cathedral in the middle of it. And again, I don't know the stacks perfectly, but I know roughly how many of that are in there. So I'm liking my odds note and one game where I sat to be fair in my own living room with my own copy of the game on a neoprene mat. And I watched just two of us, I watched him every single turn pull the one that I wanted off the top of the stack. And I was just getting straight bit of road straight bit of road. It's just worth nothing really straight bit of road. Great. And there's about 20 left, and I just pulled the corner of this neoprene mat off the table. I was like no, you're not having the win on that. ever actually flipped the table in my living room my copy of the game. We both laughed at it. But yeah, I was absolutely having none of it. I was like, No, this is absolutely crap. There's no way this should happen that like you shouldn't have been able to do that at all. From our group. I was quite interested in this one. Rihannon said Gloomhaven. Yeah, I can see that spent two hours setting up and after two turns died and I was ready to chuck it across the living room.

Was that the first scenario by any chance, I'm guessing so because it's notoriously...If you're new to the game, that first scenario is a bitch

Davey  48:11  
I can imagine by fire,

Adrian  48:13  
I'd be interested to know like if Jaws of the Lion changed that perspective, because you've got the book nice and easy to set up and all that kind of stuff

Davey  48:20  
Also was a lot easier the first scenario it started in very easy because I I played it with a group who I was like, oh, Frosthaven is coming out. I think you guys will enjoy this. A warm and real nice guy actually sent me over over the Christmas of COVID Jaws of the Lion for free. Nice. Yeah. So once we've completed towards the line because I've said on the last quest I was also going to hand it on 

JP  48:44  
Pay it foreward

Davey  48:45  
yeah, I'll put that up in the group eventually, but yeah, and it kind of ease them into the game really nicely actually Jaws of the Lion you can see why it was there to try and ease people into a

JP  48:56  
more accessible version of the game. Yes. Okay, cool.

Adrian  49:00  
So let's move on to our next one which is favourite games to play at 2 players that also plays up to 5

JP  49:07  
this was tricky this was tricky this was

Davey  49:09  
so niche I don't think I had one but all of mine with four players which are invited to

Adrian  49:16  
this is what I thought because a lot of the games that I play it two players play up to four but I was quite a hard pressed and I thought it'd be interesting see what we can come up with it because I genuinely think of a lot of these these niche sort of number ones. This one might actually have a use right if you ready to play at two players, but occasionally get some mates around. You want to play five players. Yeah. I had a few thoughts on this one but JP

JP  49:37  
Yeah, for me. I have after crawling through my collection list on Board Game Geek for about 20 minutes just going which one? Which one am I going to pick and I've settled on a Lorenzo il Magnifico which is another bauge euro game set in Florence. See during the Italian Renaissance, I know you're all excited I can tell Rob's fell asleep. But I think for me, the game plays up to five. The caveat is with the expansion.  Not out the base

Adrian  50:07  
I did look at quite a few of those. Do I include it

JP  50:11  
it counts, 

Adrian  50:11  
I didn't count it. So your is null and void. 

JP  50:14  
No, no, not at all. But I think as a two player, which I play with Chell, or used to, and when I actually got the game a few years back, it tightens the board up, like completely, but it still gives you the same feeling still gives you the same kind of game, the push and pull element of the kind of worker placement spots that you get. And again, it's all engine building, although buying the cards create new engine, so yeah, I think for me, I mean, it's, it's a game I'll always play Lorenzo. I love it. And I'd rather play it more than two players, but I'm happy to play it at two players it's not like a it's not a game at two players. Three is still the same game but I quite like more players because I'm a sociable animal. There we go.

Adrian  50:56  
Yes, I had a sort of similar thought process in some instances of did I go with a game that I enjoyed at two and a five or did I go for one that I enjoyed most at two but did scale up to five? Yeah, so I had to one was with an expansion which was Hogwarts battle the Harry Potter game yeah, that with expansion can play five played it for probably wouldn't want to play a five but so I think it's a great game. I think my actual choice is going to be Century Gollum Century Spice Road. Yeah. plays it two plays at five. I think it plays equally, maybe not equally well, but I think it plays very similarly at two and all the way up to five. It's a very simple hand building game of just upgrading gems to buy pricey golems or the best golems you can buy one with the most victory points worth of golems wins at the end. I think it's a nice simple game. And it goes along because it's turn based quite often if you start and expand the player count turns in like quite often it can get quite lengthy in between turns but I felt like Century Golem or Spice Road whichever version you want to go with adds enough has enough speed that whether you want to players or five players, it's just as good a game and because you're building your own engine, we It doesn't matter how many players you're playing with. You're just trying to build your own engine.

JP  52:14  
Yeah, we've covered that in episode three as kind of games to get you started kind of thing. So yeah, do check that out if you wanna hear loads more about Adrian talking about Spice Road or Golem edition

Adrian  52:25  
flashback 

Davey  52:27  
mine than would probably be haven't done in though so the problem whats Viticulture like at two players ever played it two players. 

JP  52:33  
Yeah. 

Davey  52:34  
Does it work? Well, 

Adrian  52:35  
it's good at two players

JP  52:36  
It's got variable worker placement spots per player count

Davey  52:40  
yeah, so I think that would work well and that's quite good five player as well. 

JP  52:46  
Up to six

Adrian  52:46  
I haven't played beyond three players. Yeah, interesting.

Davey  52:50  
Well, I actually enjoyed when we played five player it wasn't we didn't take too long. Because your actions quite you know, there's not a lot you're doing anyway. And it creates more of a a hostile environment but creates more tension between 

Rob  53:06  
You bring that with you. 

JP  53:09  
Touche Rob, touche

Davey  53:11  
When I'm making wine, I'm there swirling my wine, smiling, laughing manically

JP  53:17  
you know, you're making cheese puns and going why did we not play with the Formaggio expansion

Adrian  53:23  
It wasn't showing lots of people around is one wine bottle cellar.

Davey  53:29  
Yeah. So viticulture.

JP  53:32  
Good shout to be fair

Adrian  53:33  
Oh, yeah, I hadn't thought of that. That's an amazing shout

JP  53:36  
I probably should have preferred that one. Anyway, well done.

Davey  53:41  
So, sincerely. 

Rob  53:43  
For me, most of the games that I own slash play or four player, Co Op games just kind of 

JP  53:49  
That's not the category Rob

Rob  53:50  
Well, I know. But the one game that I do own that's five player that I enjoy at five and I enjoy it too, is Lords of Waterdeep

JP  53:59  
fair. 

Adrian  54:00  
Nice shout

Rob  54:00  
I play that with my daughter, which is fantastic. And with the expansion, you can play it five player, which, again is fantastic. It's one of my favourite games of all time really simple premise worker placement game. The entire universe isn't sit in the D&D universe, but has nothing to do. 

JP  54:20  
I mean, it might as well be set anywhere. 

Rob  54:22  
You could make that game in any sort of world with enough characters, basically. But I introduced it to a group of friends. They loved it. My wife loved it when we played. My kids love it. We've played it three or four times. Yeah. As a big group. Yeah. And again, loved it. So for me, Lords of Waterdeep

Adrian  54:49  
think it's a great choice. Yeah. So from the group, Becky chose Terraforming Mars, two to five players. It does play two players. It does play five players

JP  54:58  
Yeah good choice

Davey  55:00  
 Yeah.

JP  55:01  
Good shout.

Davey  55:03  
I think they realised that when they bought the card game version of it as well, the 

JP  55:07  
The Ares Expendition

Davey  55:07  
Ares edition yeah,

Adrian  55:11  
I mean, I prefer it over the base one, but it only pays for so nice. 

And finally, our favourite game that we are going to get rid of. So I again had a few choices, I've got a little bit of a sales pile at the moment building up, I think I'm gonna go with Stronghold, Stronghold's, a two player one on one game where one side plays orcs and trolls invading a castle. And the other side is the humans trying to defend it. The second edition is much nicer quality than the first one, I've got the second edition, there is no rolling of dice there is no it's purely deterministic. And going through the BGG list, I can see people are having exactly the same problem, which is one side seems to win a lot more than the other. But when you look through the forums, it's always different sides. So

JP  56:05  
It means it's probably quite I think it's probably well balanced.

Adrian  56:09  
But just people have a certain mindset on it or approach it the same way. I've played both sides. I've never seen the defenders lose.

JP  56:17  
But the thing is, if it's very, if it's all deterministic and outcome based, then it's probably down to the skill level of the players.

Adrian  56:25  
I've played against same person quite a lot. We've swapped sides a few times there is a little bit of okay, well this time I get to play the next time I get to play these this

Davey  56:33  
This is where house meta probably sets in an exam lead towards a certain strategy, and then you've both think that's the best one. And it's when your down that avenue

Adrian  56:43  
Changes the way you think about it Yeah, so I just don't see myself. I think I loved playing the game. I love discovering what it had in it.

Davey  56:49  
I have actually played this a long time ago, I played the first edition a long, long time ago. I did enjoy it when I played it. But yeah,

Adrian  56:56  
I just don't see it changing. Because we've got we've tried to change up the way we play the game because it does look like it must be balanced because all these players going oh Hoards terrible or Defenders are terrible, or whatever it is. And there's such an even split, it seems of people saying one side's terrible or the other side's terrible basically, were overpowered. I just can't see myself putting it back on the table and seeing a different result to what I've already seen

Davey  57:20  
Yeah, that's fair enough. So I'm probably gonna get rid of Oceans. I kept saying I want to get to table more but now and now I've played it a lot more. I played it with my cousins. And it is really good. It's just from a card game. I want more I think because I'm too used to a TCG side of things. So trade card, trading card games, so such as Magic, Flesh and Blood you know digit mon that kind of side of things that then when I'm playing these oceans it doesn't scratch the itch. Yeah. So what I'm from what I'm wanting from it, so I think I will get rid of it. Just doesn't quite cut it.

Adrian  58:04  
I think I really enjoy that game. And I think it's toothy enough for you that like ignoring the pun, because it's got sharks in it, toothy fish, I think it's got enough of that mean this too and thinking this I would affect you to love that game.

Davey  58:23  
I might as I said it is on the potential I probably will play a couple more times and play it with some different people as well. And we'll go from there because my cousins are board gamers but they're not like heavy board gamers so I might get a different table. Yeah,

Rob  58:39  
I don't own an awful lot of games because well why would I you buy them

JP  58:44  
but you're just smart Aren't you just the clever one here

Rob  58:47  
I'm cleverer than I look. 

Davey  58:48  
He doesn't like any of us actually, like just hangs around to play our games.

Rob  58:52  
For me, it's again that it was my first ever It's what got me hooked on board gaming and the only problem is you need to base copies for it. You sold your copy JP so I can only play the game two player.

JP  59:07  
What is it

Rob  59:08  
Arkham Horror the Card Game, I love it.

Davey  59:11  
I love that game

Rob  59:12  
artwork is fantastic. The replayability factor is incredible. But we did the original campaign we did the Dunwich Horror 

JP  59:22  
Path to Carcosa

Rob  59:23  
And we did the path to Carcosa am I going to play that again to player probably not and it's one of those games where my friends actually just bought it a boy in lockdown so I'm gonna say to him look if you want the expansions and you can have all the expansions all the cards because I'm not going to play it again. And not like I say I love the game it got me hooked on. It's been testing the different chapter elements so it was more of an RPG really hooked me in because it was a video game in card format than anything else. But again, when not going to play it again. And to get four players. The reason it works so well is because at the time that gave the game group hadn't really got going. So it kind of it to play out for when we had the set, four people played it and we played every chapter, but the availability to get it to the table was much higher because there was less games going on. Whereas now, I mean, 

JP  1:00:21  
it's just compete it was competing for space and calendars, isn't it? 

Rob  1:00:24  
Exactly. So realistically, but realistically, I'm never gonna play that again. I'm not going to buy the expansions for it because I'm not going to play it again. So for me that would be the one game

Davey  1:00:36  
I can see you running Descent now as well. That's probably taking your time up over there and

Rob  1:00:41  
I've got Imperial Assault coming Yeah. And eventually when when they saw the issues out in Shanghai, the Witcher is going to be coming. So realistically, am I ever gonna get it to the table again for more than one game?

Adrian  1:00:54  
I mean, it competes quite nicely with Marvel Champions as well I'm guessing which 

Rob  1:00:58  
which we're playing as well

Adrian  1:00:59  
which turn yet there's definitely be

Davey  1:01:01  
Marvel champions is a lot less like story. Yeah, there isn't a one hit easier but

Adrian  1:01:09  
the way the group dynamic is now those one shots are probably better than Yeah, campaign to play through

Rob  1:01:14  
 and that's the thing so so yeah. Reluctantly selling

Adrian  1:01:19  
Go on JP

JP  1:01:19  
Yeah. favourite game. I'm getting it up. Flotilla. I think I think you enjoy Flotilla. He's got a little sad face. I actually really enjoy it. I think it's a great game. And I suppose I'm still I'm on the fence. Even though right now as we speak, there is a post up of that. The game is sitting on with value attached to it. So we'll see obviously, we the UK games Expo around the corner. It's always a good time to offload your games. But the game is set in if you think Waterworld, okay, it's not got Kevin Costner in it. So don't worry

Rob  1:01:52  
I'm out

Davey  1:01:52  
Booooo

JP  1:01:54  
I wish he was in it Yeah. It's got a really unique mechanic that I've not seen. And that's not the Concordia hand management, because obviously it's completely ripped off from that game. But it's the fact that you can decide at any point during the game to kind of flip your role from like, was it Sinkside to skyside? ciders? 

Davey  1:02:13  
Thats it

JP  1:02:14  
And it changes the kind of the game mechanics all around. And you don't have to do this you can decide right at the beginning to do it. You can decide like the end or middle or not even bother. And and then you kind of have this push pull mechanic between the two different sides as one of you kind of sit on the middle Island, doing stuff and the other one's got your ships out delving for resources and stuff. It's I think it's just really unique and quite fun. But I think every time I want to get to the table, it doesn't fill up. It's not everyone's cup of tea, I don't think so. It's just not, it's not good enough in people's minds to compete with to keep competing with other games,

Adrian  1:02:49  
not felt whenever you've put the thing up and they say, Well, I've got two, three different evenings I need to be doing stuff, it's always Flotilla can probably take a pass. Not even played, played it, it's just that looking at it, having a thought of erm maybe not.

Davey  1:03:03  
There's a cool mechanical. If everyone stays Sinkside, then you start running resources get too cheap and you can't afford to do things and then say then quickly someone goes Skyside and starts buying all the resources by achieves all the prices back up. And it's gotten to that nice little mechanic and when you flip over, you will get different abilities again, so 

JP  1:03:22  
it's very clever. We'll see if I don't end up selling it. Because no one wants to buy it. But yeah, I think there are other things I would rather play and that's a bit like your oceans it's kind of like there's just so many other competing games that once they're at the table and you can't play them all can you

Rob  1:03:41  
I'm realistically I can probably get one maybe two game nights in a week if I if I'm lucky. Yeah, it's just the opportunity to play is more the hardest. Yeah, 

JP  1:03:53  
There we go

Adrian  1:03:54  
I think I thought I haven't had for a little while but it was an interesting one Rhiannon on this answer turned around said my character isn't full yet so I'm not getting rid of anything. I vaguely remember that feeling a few years ago

JP  1:04:06  
But I remember that when I have my two by four Kallax when you had it wasn't full and I'll forget wowI've got a lot of games and this fall in like you know I need to calm down and he's getting a bit you know overboard

Rob  1:04:17  
what she hasn't said as she just upgraded to like the massive...

JP  1:04:20  
50 by 50

Rob  1:04:24  
yeah, get out the front door.

Davey  1:04:28  
At a stretch I do actually have two, I can move all my girlfriends stuff off of it and then put some games on it. Yeah.  Remember edit that out JP.

JP  1:04:43  
Sure. Sure. We will do

Davey  1:04:47  
She won't listen anyway.

Adrian  1:04:54  
And that brings us to the end of our niche number ones. Moving on next to our listeners questions.

So turn 4 our listener question, the question is what makes a great Co Op game? pause for thought? Yeah, yeah

Rob  1:05:15  
I've got this, an element of backstabbing. The dead of winter, the saboteur where you you have to work together, but you don't wholly trust each other 

JP  1:05:26  
That's semi co-op, though, isn't that yes,

Davey  1:05:28  
Not fully co-op it

JP  1:05:30  
is the question fully Co Op,

Adrian  1:05:31  
No it just says what makes a great co-op

Davey  1:05:34  
So for you, you like having the element of 

Rob  1:05:38  
we're in this together, but are we? 

Davey  1:05:39  
Yeah, you someone could be. Yeah, that's

Rob  1:05:43  
yeah, that really enhances. I love to send and I love I prefer Co Op games. But that element that somebody might not be just keeps it. Yeah, it makes it a little bit more edgy, a bit more exciting, but I've fully co-opup games I absolutely love. That's my thing. Yeah. But but for me, that that little twist just kind of enhances it.

Davey  1:06:11  
For for me. It's yeah, so having your own your own agency rather than having someone lead the game, which if someone's because if someone's worked out the puzzle, then you might as well not be there. 

Adrian  1:06:22  
I agree, I certainly feel like there needs to be like a hidden information element where only you know certain bits to one of my favourites is pandemic and that has no hidden information. And you're right, someone can and I have in the past and try my best not to Alpha game, just quarterback the whole game, right? Well, okay, well, why don't you go over there? Why didn't you do this? Have you thought about this move instead, and they can run the game or a good portion of it, having some information that's hidden away, that's not easy to see whether it is an objective or a piece of information or something like that, that they're not required to share or shouldn't be sharing. You think that improves the co-op by making sure that it can't be quarterbacked to and a lot of coops now have removed or have added something which means you can't quarterback it? 

Davey  1:07:06  
Yeah. Because this because it literally makes you feel either useless. Or it's just you you're wasting your own time because it's someone else's. Someone else's planet, isn't it?

JP  1:07:16  
That's exactly what I was gonna say, Davey, it's feeling like you can contribute to the puzzle. Yeah, and have that honestly, it doesn't always have to be even but feel like you, you know, help figure it out. And you did something. So yeah, it's that. That's that's an important thing. Because main co ops otherwise, what's the point 

Davey  1:07:33  
having your own powers and ability you can bring forward and then that's you having to solve it on your terms. Your choice when you're using it? And, you know, it's probably why RPGs and dungeon crawlers work so well is because you do have your own class taken through Yeah, yeah. Yeah. 

Adrian  1:07:50  
Someone can say can you go over and twat that goblin for please. But ultimately is kind of your decision. At the end of the day. I think that's a lot. A lot copes. I see, the best thing to remember is, someone can suggest something to you. And you can just say, no, I'm gonna go over and take on that instead, one of the questions I had kind of off of this question is a good Co Op easy to achieve or hard to achieve. I like a co op that's hard to solve. That's hard to beat. One of my favourites that I can very rarely get people to play his Ghost Stories. Because it is really tough game with lots of bits going on. You have to kind of learn maybe a bit too many rules, but it is really tough. I know people that will refuse to play it because of how tough it is. And I can understand that mood I can understand that feeling. But does that make it a better co-op? Because it's tougher to beat or does it make it a better cope when it's easy to beat?

JP  1:08:40  
Depends what you're trying to get out of it? 

Davey  1:08:41  
And yeah, I guess if you're in a lighter mood and you're probably you're probably pay Pandemic is but easy and you're more likely to achieve your goals. Whereas you know, if you want to sit down and have a nice think Robinson Crusoe to the table and play a bit of that 

JP  1:08:54  
And die

Davey  1:08:55  
played that quite a few times that one is a real big brain burner that one you can end up out for gaming as well but because it's so much of a puzzle having someone else there if it's harder alpha gaming because less proud of it. They're prevalent because you need more people to solve that puzzle.

Adrian  1:09:15  
The puzzle could have multiple ways to solve it. Yeah. And there could be multiple things going on that yeah, there could be with the easier puzzles having like Oh, well that's the way to solve it is quite often the point where you get caught back

Rob  1:09:29  
Yeah, but also suddenly like Mansions where the game is difficult regardless of how many players Yeah, like you know the amount of times we've lost Mansions of Madness Co Op, obviously with the and still had a great time and that's because the twist in the story. So the game is obviously the same. It's the story that's changing and making it more difficult and if you if you don't work together, it's incredibly difficult. Yeah. So regardless of whether somebody's you know, you will have your input as to what But ultimately, it's your decision. 

Adrian  1:10:01  
Yeah, just trying to sort of summarise my thoughts a little bit in the fact that I think you've kind of hit the nail on the head is really what makes a great Co Op is that you all invested. If you're all invested in that outcome, win, lose, draw whatever it is. If everyone around the table is on the edge of their seat, standing up, whatever it is desperate for that dice roll or that choice to go the right way, then you've got a good cop on your hands. And that's not a specific mechanic or a single thing. And we're all we all invested. Are we all feeling the pinch on this game? The environment is going

Davey  1:10:33  
away, right game for the group.

Rob  1:10:36  
Absolutely. 

JP  1:10:37  
Cool.

Adrian  1:10:37  
So I think we've I think we've summarised that nicely so thank you very much, Rick, for asking that question. If you have any. If anyone else out there has questions, we've got a bit of a list now actual listeners asking questions, which we're going through but we'll add it to the list and we make sure we get around to yours at some point. 

Davey  1:10:52  
Thank you very much. 

JP  1:10:53  
Thanks, guys. Thanks Rick. 

Adrian  1:10:54  
Thank you Rick.

And turn five our penultimate turn what are we all looking forward to either gaming or non gaming vicious random corner for us? I think I know the answer to a few people's 

Davey  1:11:11  
UKGE, UKGE

JP  1:11:14  
which is probably been and gone when this is released Yes. So yeah, we loved it. It was brilliant.

Davey  1:11:19  
Yeah. See us there 

JP  1:11:21  
so we've already been

Adrian  1:11:25  
It's that podcast magic timey whimey thing?

JP  1:11:29  
Anachrony has come into play and we all gone but a time travel we don't know what's going on.

Adrian  1:11:33  
So is there any stands or anything you guys most of you on the Crokinole tournament? I think 

JP  1:11:37  
yes Crokinole tournament on Saturday

Davey  1:11:39  
Yeah, yeah, I want to play Wonderland Wars to see what it's like because it looks a little bit like Quacks fo Quedlinberg mixed with some area control so it looked quite intriguing yeah a little bit of a little bit attacking defence and pulling stuff out of bags.  Why not

Rob  1:11:58  
nice I'm it's my first ever game Expo. I'm going in completely blind that I have no relevant the I have no idea what's going to be there I'm just gonna go and enjoy the experience

JP  1:12:08  
Here is my wing, sittiunder it Yeah. God help you

Rob  1:12:13  
Yeah, it'll be fine to be honest. I'm just looking forward to it

Adrian  1:12:16  
No going down dark alleys

Davey  1:12:18  
couple of Stein's deep you'll be you'll be loving it

Rob  1:12:20  
exactly. I think I'm gonna come back a lot less financially, physically, mentally

JP  1:12:27  
You'll be tired mate

Rob  1:12:28  
Yeah, but just looking forward to it and to be honest getting away for you guys. I think we the we you know we all get on genuinely it's not we're a group of friends that play board games as in you know, we don't all come together just to play a game so so yeah getting away having having some fun going in completely blind I think the last thing 

JP  1:12:49  
I'm tearing up here mate

Rob  1:12:50  
but I've been to what was the one we went to Alexandra Palace.

JP  1:12:56  
What...Tabletop Gaming live

Rob  1:12:57  
gaming live and had a wonderful experience or games that I didn't even know where they're all you might never see again. Exactly. I ended up buying Escape the Castle. Yes, first game we got in there early there wasn't that many people in there they were lads come and sit down and play this nice. I love it. Thank you wonderful

JP  1:13:17  
Easiest sale that he had

Rob  1:13:20  
I'm not a complicated creature in any shape or form so 

JP  1:13:24  
god you're going to be spending loads

Rob  1:13:25  
Yeah, but I just enjoyed the experience and and yeah, and there's just a lot of cool people to you know to be in the ring with so yeah, it's really looking forward to

JP  1:13:35  
mine mine isn't Expo related. Controversial controversial. I'm actually

Davey  1:13:41  
Did you just moo

JP  1:13:42  
I don't know, i'm playing Agricola. I am very excited because I'm going over to Gaming Rules HQ again tomorrow. And I'm going to be playing Septima which is the new Mindclash Games that's not even been released yet. 

Davey  1:14:02  
Oh, nice is that the sci fi one 

JP  1:14:04  
no the witch one? 

Davey  1:14:05  
Oh, the witch ones 

JP  1:14:06  
The witch is one where you different covens of witches and it's cool. Yeah, do stuff. I don't know anything about the game, so I can't tell you anything. I'm just excited to play this one because it's Mindclash. Hey, I'm a fanboy. And yeah, so it's just quite nice to actually play a game before I may back it on the Kickstarter? Yeah.

Davey  1:14:24  
Nice it always helps doesn't it? 

JP  1:14:26  
Yeah. So I'm really looking forward to to give that a whirl. Yeah, that's kind of mine.

Davey  1:14:32  
Really nice.

Adrian  1:14:33  
Are you flexing you're turning up on a YouTube channel

JP  1:14:38  
may do may do.

Davey  1:14:40  
Are you being filmed are you

JP  1:14:41  
Yeah. will be recorded. And it will be released I think when the Kickstarter goes live okay. So usually the the

Davey  1:14:47  
video will play through thing on the bottom of the page

JP  1:14:51  
play through potentially might be on there. We will see I'm looking 

Davey  1:14:57  
Your hands will be at least 

JP  1:14:59  
Yeah. Yeah, if you see my fingers coming and picking up a piece, I mean, if you see some x,

Davey  1:15:05  
there my hands those are 

JP  1:15:07  
you'll see some expert play, not. 

Davey  1:15:11  
Cheeky thumbs up. So who knows you?

JP  1:15:14  
I'll be wearing a hoodie. 

Yeah, but all I'm saying is sometimes they're just the table top down

Not if I climb on the table ha ha

Rob  1:15:19  
That was the last time JP was invited around

JP  1:15:31  
That was the last time I was invited around Paul Grogans house, but yeah, that is me.

Adrian  1:15:33  
I've not got a lot planned in gaming wise, I picked up a cheap copy of Dune Imperium from the dent and dinged section. We'd like a bit of that. So that'll be getting to the table. Hopefully tomorrow. And then racket

Davey  1:15:43  
good game. I'm tempted to get a copy of it as well, to be honest,

Adrian  1:15:47  
it was It wasn't because JP's got it. So I wasn't intending to buy it. But when I saw a nice cheap dinged copy. I love that I think so

JP  1:15:55  
it's so quick to get to the table and get games in.

Rob  1:15:58  
It's even quicker to fill up. I haven't even played it yet. Because every time an event goes out, it's instantly Well,

JP  1:16:04  
you just got a request, Rob,

Davey  1:16:06  
and it looks easier to set up and Ross ruins of our neck. So I just want to

Adrian  1:16:11  
play that sample.

Davey  1:16:12  
It's really good. It's really good.

Adrian  1:16:14  
The other the other one that I'm hoping to get to the table in the next couple of weeks is to finish off at least the first campaign of Imperial Assault. So I know Rob you have just bought it all

Rob  1:16:24  
I am getting it for my birthday is the other thing, which is Sunday. 

JP  1:16:29  
So happy birthday. 

Rob  1:16:31  
So yeah, um, let me know how it goes. Because this

JP  1:16:34  
podcast episode is devoted to Rob's birthday.

Rob  1:16:37  
Thank you. 

Adrian  1:16:39  
So I played the first half of it with the intro on the app. And I thought that went really well. It's not normally I thought I was quite burnt out on these kinds of Dungeon dwelling dungeon bashing sort of games. But actually this was pretty nice. I enjoyed what I played of it it's not my normal type of game, but I enjoyed it enough that I was we sat and played nearly six seven hours of it straight and I'd probably sit down and play another sort of similar six hour session of it and just smashed through the rest of the campaign

Rob  1:17:08  
if ever you want to play as the DM as suc villain then we should

Adrian  1:17:14  
probably 

Rob  1:17:15  
Yeah seems like a lot of good fun. Yeah, so

Adrian  1:17:18  
that's definitely on my radar to play

JP  1:17:19  
Enjoy. 

Adrian  1:17:21  
Yeah, looking forward to it. And with that our final turn is wrapping up and victory points are about to be scored Daveys probably won

Rob  1:17:28  
Kerleys won, he's not even here

Adrian  1:17:31  
thanks everyone for listening. If you've enjoyed the show, please like subscribe and review on your podcast player of choice if you want to get in touch with the show on our socials. You can first of all you can email us at players@whoseturn.co.uk You could check out our Facebook page @whoseturnisitanywaypodcast. You could go to our Instagram page @whoseturnpodcast and TikTok @whoseturnisitanyway and someone who isn't me will probably get in touch if you contact us through that method. 

JP  1:17:59  
Me or Davey

Adrian  1:18:01  
we'll be back in two weeks time with another episode. So until then, whose turn is it anyway?

Transcribed by https://otter.ai