Episode 5: All in on add-ons

Adrian  0:26  
Hello, and welcome to Whose Turn Is It Anyway, a podcast all about our board game group and the board games we play. I'm Adrian, your new first player and I'm joined today by two other players, Kerley and JP. As you join us we have just completed set up for today's episode with our board in the middle of the table and components within easy reach. So we are due to start with our main topic today being crowdfunding. But first, how are we all doing today? 

JP  0:48  
Pretty good.

Kerley  0:49  
Yeah, really good. Thanks nice day at work can't complain. 

JP  0:52  
It's weird being on this side of the table. As in not the first player I've been usurped and kicked off

Adrian  0:58  
You have been kicked off. Yeah. 

Kerley  1:00  
A rebellion formed. 

Adrian  1:01  
It was time someone else did your job better for you.

JP  1:04  
Because plenty of opportunities for people to do it better. Which I'm all for. It's all good. It's how we evolve. It's how we get better. So yeah, nice. Good to have you as first player mate.

Adrian  1:12  
Thank you very much. Thank you very much. So you I mean, you've been on holiday haven't you recently

JP  1:17  
I sit here with a kind of glowing tan. I think it's gone less red as the weeks gone on. But yes, I've come back from Vegas, which has been absolutely amazing. So I've been before this is my second trip. And yeah, bit of gambling, bit of sunbathing, lots of walking. Lots of losing money, the usual stuff. 

Adrian  1:37  
Ah Vegas then

JP  1:38  
Vegas standard Vegas things, but now it's always good to get back out there. And I think if Ian was on the podcast, you will want to grill me for about another 50 minutes on the topic, but thank god he's not so we can carry on.

Adrian  1:51  
What about yourself Kerley

Kerley  1:52  
standard week for me. Yeah, works been absolutely fine. Been loving life. Weather's starting to pick up but yeah,

Adrian  2:00  
It's been nice up there. And yeah, 

JP  2:03  
Summer is on its way

Adrian  2:04  
 I know you went on holiday for sun, but We had it alright here as well

JP  2:07  
yeah. Wasn't 35 degrees was it.

Adrian  2:11  
Well that's true, but it was close, I think. 

JP  2:15  
Had a 2 in it

Adrian  2:18  
In which case should go straight into our first time. 

JP  2:20  
Let's do it.

Adrian  2:30  
Well, in which case, we should talk about you and me. And we should talk about all the good things and the bad things that have been when we talk about hex? Well, I'm like 60%, proud and 40% disgusted with myself. 

JP  2:46  
Do you feel dirty

Kerley  2:47  
Reminds me of my brother's bad jokes

JP  2:49  
Well I think we need to back him up though. And say "let's talk about hex"

No, no you do that.

Adrian  2:58  
So Kerley what have you been playing recently?

JP  3:00  
I've had some really good games lately, actually, in the last week or so some things that we haven't played very often. So we had a small games night and we had a game of Ark Nova as well. That was really good fun. Thoroughly enjoyed that. Not the first time played. It played quite a few times. But yeah, it's first time I'm playing with James Davey.

Is that his full name, like he's been naughty. 

Kerley  3:23  
Well, this is it young Davey. Well, it's only because when he did his intro episode, I can't really decide what he actually wanted to be called

JP  3:29  
We call him. Davey. Yeah, even if he doesn't like it. 

Kerley  3:31  
Yeah, Davey then. But anyway, yeah. So I played with Davey, and he's always a good challenge on those types of games. So it was nice to play him. But yeah, beat him anyway. 

JP  3:40  
So I was gonna say who won? Did you win again. 

Kerley  3:43  
Course I did

Adrian  3:44  
you played it quite a bit recently. Over while you're on like, 20 plays 30 plays

JP  3:49  
God? No, no, seriously? Probably doesn't. Yeah, maybe. Yeah, me and Becky played it a fair amount a few times when it first arrived. So yeah, it may be 12-15.

For those that don't know, or haven't heard of Ark Nova, which I'd be surprised because it's usually everyone's talking about it came out. Literally, it kind of came out of nowhere. And then everyone Oh, my God is the new Terraforming Mars. And then, you know, the usual stuff of comparisons. So what is it? 

Kerley  4:19  
So essentially, I mean, there are comparisons to Terraforming Mars, but it doesn't play the same. It's a zoo based kind of mixture between a card engine building game got elements of a worker placement game. Creating your own puzzle on the board as well. It's it throws together some of my favourite elements of a lot of other games. But yeah, it's basically the idea is that you get a deck of one of three things. So it's either animal sponsors, or conservation efforts. And you use these cards, you get cards and you make your own little zoo and how profitable it is. How well you do in conservation as well equals how many essentially the VP points you get brilliant game, loads of different cards, you can pick up loads of variation to be had, and loads of different interesting elements to it. What I would say is they've got a really interesting way of actually ending the game, which is either it's a marmite for a lot of people, it's probably my favourite game at the moment, I say at the moment, but it is a little bit marmite in its victory points. So essentially, what it is, is it's all about that last turn. So it's when you meet in the middle, and everyone gets one more time after that. And it's actually how much of a difference you have between your conservation and I forget your appeal is how many points that you actually get overall. So that final term, you know, for an example, if you get a double final term, it's like disproportionately powerful. 

JP  5:49  
The thing I like about it is the mechanic that I enjoy is the action selection mechanism with the five cards. And they've they've lifted it straight from civilization noodle, because it's exactly the same how it works in that game, where you have the row of five cards, you pick the card, you want to play at the power level it's at and then that shifts to the back of the queue and everything orders back. That in itself, organising which action to play at what power level and chaining those moves together. Very satisfying. When you get it right. Yeah. When you don't, and it's like bollocks. 

Kerley  6:24  
And they make that decision really interesting. Like, especially with like the x's and how you accumulate those Yeah, bleed into other turns. And, you know, it makes it a very interesting puzzle to work out. Nice.

Adrian  6:36  
Okay, moving on to JP, apart from Blackjack, yeah. What else? Have you been playing for the last couple of weeks?

JP  6:41  
I was gonna say it's definitely been Blackjack. I won't say I've been playing a lot of it. Just I'm not a big gambler, myself. So I'm still a little flutter every now and then. But I managed to get up on the monies. What was it about $133 up, I'll take it. I'll take it. It's better than being down. But no on the gaming front. As you know, I kind of kept myself to myself before the holiday. And I've been playing some solo stuff. So I got Under Falling Skies, which is a game purely solo. And it kind of reminds you of Space Invaders and the way it works. And it's it's a fun game, you can set up in one minute, two minutes tops. And essentially, you kind of imagine the board beings long column, it's got five columns within it. And on the bottom of the board is your base. And there's got different rooms on it that do different things,

Adrian  7:33  
it reminds me of XCOM, that bottom half board is it's those little rectangles that are just waiting for you to sort of dig into them or whatever.

JP  7:41  
Yeah, it kind of feels in that way where you kind of expand into different rooms, you've got rooms that will blast the aliens out of the sky, you've got rooms, they'll do research, you got rooms that will generate power. And then you got ones that'll do robots and other things. But the idea is you got the mothership right at the top. And every round is the motherships going to kind of keep descending just like Space Invaders and it's going to spawn the spaceships that come down the road, but the rub of the game is a you have five dice, and three of them are grey, two of them are white, you roll the dice that begin in round, and you have to assign the dice to the rooms in the columns, the number that you put in generally, generally, the higher the number, the better the yield for the room, you're gonna get more power, it's going to fight more things. But that's also the spaces the ship moves down in that column. So you're trying to kind of time or get the right numbers to move the ships onto certain spaces on this board so that you can blow them up. So a lot of them have like explosion spaces. Some of them have like left chevron arrows or right chevron arrows to move them into different columns. So it becomes this really puzzly game of rolling the dice, I've got to figure out where I want to put my stuff get the chips in the right way and then feel good when they will get blown up. It never really happens that way. But the fun part of it is it ever if you ever use a white dice, you have to reroll the entire dice that you've got in your pool. So sometimes you're rolling like all sixes which never happens but we you might not want because that's just going to make all the chips come down really quick you might want some ones and twos but you think if I've got the the white one there I might be able to change the look and things like that. Yeah, it's just a fun little game and it comes with a campaign mode. Which again is good fun for any kind of pick your scenario which city you want to defend it add some extra rules in play and pick characters that can kind of help you along the way. So I've just done the first scenario out of 8. And yes, I'm not very far I'm not very good at it either. But but it's quite fun you can play for half hour it reminded me what you said Adrian on a previous episode of Railroad Ink, that kind of feeling of busting the game out for half hour, roll some dice puzzling 

Adrian  9:49  
Yeah nice relax, relaxed sort of puzzle solving half hour or whatever

JP  9:53  
it's not massively deep, but it's very satisfying when you you know win the scenario and you go yes I'm clever. I did it

Adrian  10:02  
It's got reat table presence for a little silo play a game. It's that long old board with all these nice little plastic and wooden dice and all that light. It looks great on the table considering potential it's only you that's going to be looking at it. 

JP  10:16  
It's like playing 20 pounds.You know, it's not that much. There's a lot of lot game there considering what you get a lot of replayability but yeah, that crossword puzzle kind of game. Yeah, you just want to do something for half hour, you can bust it out. It's not something I'll probably spend all night doing.

I don't do that with board games. But it reminds me of the way I feel about Slay The Spire. Yeah, I'll get on and half hour on slay the spire on my PC, which actually swears by is one of the few games actually does play like a board game kind of that kind of Yeah. So that's the way I treat that

Yeah, it's the same same principle. So lots of fun. You're not heard of it. Check it out, I'd say especially like solo stuff. That's me, what about you.

Adrian  10:56  
So I got transported back to the 80s. Essentially,

JP  11:00  
Wow, jitterbug, it's a good decade. It's great decade

Adrian  11:06  
Yeah, it's not bad. Didn't see much of it. So yeah, so a friend of mine had the new Hero Quest. Busted that out, I'd never played it before. It felt like an 80s game. It was you've got it's a you know, it's got all the rooms in it. And then you've got GamesMaster at the end behind his little screen, who knows where all the corridors lead and where all the doors are gonna go out and you explore it. And you beat up goblins and trolls or orcs or whatever they were. Yeah, it feels like at that time, it's a nice sort of reminisce to win board games were like that. And it's a great, they've done a great job of making it look quality. All the cards are printed nicely. The models look good, the boards printed well. But mechanically, it's definitely a game from that sort of late 80s, early 90s. Period, but I had a blast. It was just fun. Just rolling dice, and moving around. And then why you in the way because there's no mechanic for people to move through people and you're in the way again, and again. It's just it just feels like all those sort of things that modern games have ironed out. But I had a blast. I really did it. It was it was the first time I'd played that. That was the first time I played Hero Quest. And it was just great to chuck some dice and cast some spells and just see what was in the dungeon and where it wasn't or what's around this corner. Oh, it's two trolls

JP  12:34  
Don't know about you Kerly, did you have it? As a kid? Yeah. Yeah. Say me. I'd had it in the 80s along with Bloodbowl. And there were some of the greatest experiences I had. I think

Kerley  12:45  
I had that and Space Crusade.

JP  12:47  
I had that as well, yeah, that was like the Space Hulk light

I think. Yeah, this was it was  Hero Quest, Space Crusade and Crossbows and Catapults. That was me and my brothers when we were kids. Yeah, it was good. Simple times.

Did you need any other games then? Happy with those very? Has it still got the roll and move on?

Adrian  13:05  
Yeah. Yeah, still roll some dice off the two dice as it was

JP  13:09  
 is it two D6's six. 

Adrian  13:12  
And then you move that distance?

JP  13:15  
Urgh sometimes you moving 2 or moving 12

Adrian  13:18  
Yeah. So it can it can drastically affect your turn and that sort of thing. It feels like old mechanics, and it was great to bust through it and kind of go yeah, these aren't game. This isn't what games look like anymore for probably a good reason. Because it was rubbish when you just wanted to catch up with the rest of the group. And you're wrong for like three times in a row. Hold up, guys I'm coming. I'm coming. 

JP  13:42  
There's no thematic reason why I can't keep up with you. 

Adrian  13:44  
Yes. why the elfcouldn't keep up with the dwarf for no apparent reason. It was Yeah. So there was those moments like that. And now there's moments where again, you know, you're rolling dice to hit and there's no real modifiers I get to roll three dice or one dice. That's about as good as it gets. You do get different chances of hitting things. But you also get just as many chances of rolling a load of ones or not onesthe goal the skulls versus the shields and all that kind of stuff. So yeah, it was good. I had a good time is very much of its age. And I think it's it's nice to reminisce like you guys. I had Space Hulk, Blood Bowl. And it's I didn't do Hero Quest. But it definitely sort of reminded me of that. That age of board gaming and yeah, great fun, great reprint. They've done a great job on production of that. Yeah, brilliant, okay.

So we move on to our second turn, which is the main event where we will be talking about crowdfunding culture. I think most people listening to this will know what crowdfunding is, but for those who don't, we'll just quickly go over sort of a bit of a history and what crowdfunding is all about. It's mostly website. Some businesses who offer a way for you to back an idea by saying I will pay X amount and in return, if that idea comes to fruition, you will get this that on the other obviously, in this instance, we talk about board games, but there's plenty out there. This is normally to help. This was originally designed to help small businesses that couldn't put up the capital in the first place to get an idea to fruition. Because, you know, if they didn't hit the Kickstarter goal, or you know, the crowdfunding goal, then the product wouldn't land, they wouldn't get the money, it was kind of a safe system, if they did hit the gold, they would get the money. And the expectation would be that you would get a product at the end of it. I think it's fair to say now that that's not the case anymore. It's become a bit of an elaborate pre order system with some fantastic marketing, that you can essentially market something that may not have been seen before. But they've got the most of these companies already have the capital, they're like, you look at some of the board games that are on Kickstarter and gaming found some of the board gaming companies 

JP  16:03  
CMON

Adrian  16:04  
Yeah, those kinds of ones, they already have more than enough capital to put this product out there. What they're doing is they're gaining hype through it. I think that's a fair enough explanation and a bit of history around crowd funding. Anything you guys wanted to add to that.

JP  16:17  
Yeah, I mean, I, I do agree with all the points that you made, especially around hype as well. I do think that a lot of the reason that companies do it slash reason why it's so popular is just a simple phrase, fear of missing out. And I do think there is a real fine line that sometimes is danced over, where companies are exploiting people's fear of missing out. And I think that's what Kickstarters strengths and weaknesses. Yeah, at the same time,

Adrian  16:43  
I would absolutel agree, absolutely. I would say there are still plenty of companies out there, right? I'm on I think it's the Board Game Lab. It's called the board game designers lab on Facebook. And there's plenty of you can tell little indie designers doing everything themselves desperately trying to get all their bits and pieces together who are going on Kickstarter, and launching products that they absolutely would not be able to do without crowdfunding. I think for the most part, the big ones that you hear a lot about are by companies who are have already got plenty of skin in the game in this instance, and they've got the capital already sat there, that they could then invest in that game and produce that game. It's just all these other bonuses. So does anyone want to kick in about their experiences? Or what like how often they're backing like,

JP  17:29  
I've never done it before? What is Kickstarter?

Yeah, well, I think I could probably rattle off about half a dozen of your Kickstarter without even thinking about it

Adrian  17:37  
anything that contains neoprene and poker chips.

JP  17:42  
But no. Yeah, I don't think my biggest problem with Kickstarter is not the big companies that can fund their own. Actually, interestingly enough, it's more the companies that provide about 18 add ons for about $20 A piece extra or pounds or euros or wherever it works out to and you end up like, oh, well, I need everything that they've got. And it comes to about 300 pounds for a flippin board game

and it's like FOMO thing. 

Kerley  18:06  
Yeah, exactly. Right. So for an example I backed FrostHaven which is due to come soon. Right?

JP  18:12  
But they have been saying that though for a long time. Ya know? 

Kerley  18:15  
It's been they've had that two year anniversary to be fair, so it can't be much longer surely. But the thing is with that one what I liked about it there isn't 1,000,001 expansions the price is the price is the price and I can deal with that. I don't care if they got enough money to make it as long as I don't feel they're trying to take advantage off me. I can cope with that I can cope with the evolution of Kickstarter in that direction. It was hey people will argue with me but I don't like the whole like Bloodborne I mean I've done it don't get me wrong anyone out there who's done it before and they've ordered X amount of flipping expansions that they probably never open. I've done it. I've been there Bloodborne I had four expansions. I think the famous one I didn't do it but I remember at the time Dark Souls was around God eight expansions or something ridiculous or special characters. And you know, it was one of those that people just caught up in the hype and ended up probably just spending a hell of a lot more than they actually needed to but you know,

Adrian  19:13  
generally do you feel your experiences are good, or kickstart or bad indifferent? Like how are you feeling about what you've backed? Personally,

JP  19:21  
I feel like I've had more trouble with non board game Kickstarters than I have with board game Kickstarters I do tend to find that most board game Kickstarters

Sorry, just going back to your charging cable

yes that bloody charging cable

I think it was literally a two month Kickstarter where it was going to be delivered in two months over a year later for a flipping charging cable for my phone. By the way,

let's just explain this to the listeners right so this charging cables got like little magnets on it so you can call it round right so it keeps all tidy. That's that was the selling point of this job. 

Kerley  19:58  
Absolutely. 

JP  19:59  
A year

Kerley  20:00  
a year for a charging cable

Adrian  20:03  
Takes a long time to get those magnets, I'm sure. Yeah, that's

JP  20:05  
It was just, you know, I haven't done Kickstarter very much. And I assumed that if there was only a month or two away from for actual delivery, that they must have a robust way of actually getting that to you. But ya know, they're what they didn't have any plan at all. I'm just Yeah, made a total pigs ear of it, basically. So yeah, I've had a pretty good time with board game Kickstarters. I can't say I'm quite a patient person. Yeah, I order them and then just go, it turns up when it turns up

Adrian  20:34  
I think if you're into kickstarting stuff, you have to have patience. I've, I think I've had three Kickstarters, delivered on time, out of 20 to 30. And one of those was a friend's Kickstarter, where he was trying to create a miniature war game. And they literally hand delivered it to my door because they live just around the corner. And I think that's possibly the reason why I got it on time. That to be fair, they did post pretty much everything I think on the dates they said they were delivered by so there are ones out there that do deliver on time. But I think it's fair to say that if you're into Kickstarters, you've got to be prepared to watch that. arrival date slipped a little bit. Yeah, four or five, six times. Yeah,

JP  21:17  
that's the thing for me is you get the the buzz of the campaign. And you look at it all especially like for me, you know, it's Chip Theory Games, put one out there or Mindclash Games, put one out there. I'm like, I'm like the tractor beam straight in What's this all about? I'll have a look. And I get really excited. And I get all this pleasure is that pledge and he kind of gets sucked into the void of it. And, and then you go through the motions of the two weeks, or whatever it is, and like you say, then you got to wait. And then you kind of clambering on to those communications that you get oh, update what's going on? Oh, excellent. There's some meeples that I've not seen before amazing. And then another month, but at some point, you're you're kind of hype dissipates a little bit naturally. Because you're, you're really excited and then you've got to wait a year and a half

Adrian  22:09  
year or whatever it is, and then just up to about two weeks before the hype comes back.

JP  22:14  
That's the thing I think sometimes you I think you mature in your thinking or you're playing other stuff and you kind of forget about it, you know, and then sometimes the games come and go and why can I back that? 

Adrian  22:28  
Oh really 

JP  22:29  
sometimes

Adrian  22:30  
Had a few of them have you

JP  22:31  
I've got someone on the horizon where I'm what I've back that now back, you know, thinking feeling how I feel? Probably not I don't know, it's a strange one. I'll probably be excited when it turns up but ups don't feel like as excited which you won't do where you because you're not in that peak of hype. 

Adrian  22:50  
Yes, you kind of mentioned that it creates that FOMO there or where everything's going on you feel as part of you feel like part of a group of people that are all excited for it and then you get six months 12 months, two years of just waiting and not not knowing if it's gonna get delayed further and seeing occasional updates some you might be really happy with some you may not be happy with. And you just kind of have to then have that very gentle ride almost where you don't get too bothered about it before it then delivers and hope that you like it. When it arrives

JP  23:23  
you kind of need to forget about it. I think yes. My I mean, I'm not saying like we shouldn't get communications you should absolutely get them because if you practice as many as I have over lockdown, you forget what the hell you've backed and when it's supposed to be right.

So that was the key with lock down. It was like that, that that buzz for me was used as a bit of a you know, little endorphin kick when you ordered something and then I've 

Look what you can play when you get out of lockdown

Kerley  23:45  
I've got about eight things on order that we're all ordered during lockdown. So me too.

Adrian  23:49  
I behave during lockdown. I think I was the opposite to that. I think I backed one kick started during lockdown. 

Kerley  23:56  
Without exaggerating I think I probably would say I did seven in lockdown

JP  24:02  
Yeah, probably about the same for me.

Yeah, a lot of them have delivered already. To be honest. Yeah.

Adrian  24:07  
I mean, that's safe. What's the lockdown was just over a year ago, essentially from depending on which lockdown you're talking about.

JP  24:14  
Definitely. 2020. Yeah. So

Adrian  24:17  
again, 18 months? Yeah, probably. It's fair It's safe to say that they've at least arrived in that time. I mean, personally, I've had, I think I've become much more cautious because I was working out out of 20 odd board game and war gaming related. Kickstarters, I think I've got four left in my possession, I am not the best at picking them. I can safely say that. And yeah, that the hype happens in the moment. Some of them have had a fair bit of playing, but very rarely have they been become my favourite thing. And therefore they kind of get shipped on because I think that's fair to say it's one of the risks you have with backing something is you genuinely don't know what the product looks like, unless it's a reprint, or something like that you are backing this idea. And this idea evolves and changes sometimes,

JP  25:08  
maybe not to the way you like, 

Adrian  25:09  
yeah, maybe not. So a great wall is one of the ones that hopefully we're gonna get to the table soon. And that went through a massive evolution from where it was day one of the Kickstarter to being delivered. And I don't know if it's for good or bad, but it's definitely not the game I backed originally. It has the very basic fundamentals, but you can tell that they've reworked it quite a bit in that time. And so that is part of the risk isn't it is that you are just backing an idea. Now idea can evolve, it can change could not arrive at all.

JP  25:44  
Yeah, that's also a possibility. I've seen some right horror stories,

I must say, like the Kickstarter in general has really woken me up to the importance of game designers and publishers. But I do my research a lot more. When I'm looking to back a Kickstarter project and a way more like for you talking about I would never have looked like a publisher. Previously, I've just had a look. Did I know the theme of it? Did it look interesting? And I'd have gone for it if I fancied it. Whereas now I'll actually look at okay, who designed it? Because I'm just thinking about? No, it's a bit of a segue, but I remember Wingspan of really reluctant to play it because the theme just did not interest me at all. The artwork didn't look massively interesting to me. And I was just like, No, and then I turned up here played it once. And I was like, This is amazing. Love that game. And so really woke me up to the importance of game design. So yeah, so I look at the game designers now what they've done previously, have they had previous Kickstarters. What are the ratings of those previous starters on BGG? Maybe see what the overall turnout was on it? You know? So yeah, doing a lot more because what you tend to find with BGG, with Kickstarter is this is part of what you're saying with hype, is that the scores either get dumped or they get hyped up to the max, you

Adrian  26:54  
can be 12 months before delivery, and it can be one star or 10 stars. And it's really hard to know, I think you're right, I think I remember a couple of years back a friend of mine got as a Christmas present, I believe AVP. Aliens vs. Predators by Produs Games, I think it was that delivered in parts because they completely over promised what they were going to do similar to Dark Souls, they totally over promised. And then he had to deliver bit by bit. And sometimes the retail game was out there for 12-18 months. 

JP  27:25  
That's annoying

Adrian  27:25  
the people were getting their game that they'd Kickstarter, they'd put their money in to make this idea happen. And the company had run out of money. So they were having to sell retail games, to then make a profit secure to fund the rest of the Kickstarter. And my friend was walking up to the Produs, I'm sure it's Produs or something like that. They were walking up to that booth and just saying, I've got like 100 pounds worth of Kickstarter credit, because that's how they handled it. I will have 100 pounds worth of stuff, whatever I can have now, so that they knew they were getting that. And I just think that's if that was your first taste of Kickstarter, would you ever back again, like and luckily, I think it's fair to say that that doesn't happen too much. But you talked about Dark Souls, I'm very much aware that SFG Steamforge Games, lost a lot of reps that they'd built up through the release of Guildball and how that kickstart had been handled. Via they lost a lot of it because of the way they handled Dark Souls. And so I think a lot of people do remember those bad Kickstarters and it can affect future ones. But I think for the most part is you do generally get it. As we sort of said it's delayed, isn't it? Yeah, nearly always. I mean, Awaken Realms you talked about Nemesis before just talked about the Great Wall. Whether it was Dawn Fall Downfall, I owned it, I sold it, wherever it was called DawnFall Downfall the edge.

JP  28:45  
I think you mean Downfall the one with the cogs. No, no, no. Nothing like No, no, it's not the same.

Adrian  28:52  
All of those games that awaken realms is produced, even This War of Mine, which I've quite enjoyed before I got rid of it is they all arrived late. Yeah, by a significant amount of time and not insignificant amount of time, 

JP  29:06  
at least six months, 

Adrian  29:07  
you kind of have to get used to it. And it if you look at anyone backing Awaken Realms, the first thing they'll tell you is that do delivery date is probably six months to a year out. And so people are now going to go into Awaken Realms gaming founds, because that's how they are now that's that's, that's their platform, they go into those knowing that they're going to expect the large delay. So I think a couple of bits and pieces that we sort of have talked about off the podcast before that I think it's probably worth going through as positives is that creation of a community that Kickstarter allows we talked about how a game can change quite significantly sometimes, and I've seen it a few times. It can change because of feedback in a positive way that they've received. Why have you not added this part? Why does this mechanic not do this? They'll get repeated feedback. on it. And it allows them to perfect the game. And ultimately it means that we're not waiting for a second or third reprint for them to get all these things right through selling a board game, having it played for three, six months and then deciding, oh, now we'll reprint they're getting it before they get to print the product. And I think, for consumers for board games, I think that's a really positive thing. I think it allows a much better

JP  30:24  
do you think not not to kind of spin this into a negative? Because I know you're going through positives, and I'm just gonna keep it there. But do you think that could also be a bad thing? Sometimes when people think they know what they want? And actually, do they? Because they're not game designers?

Adrian  30:40  
No, I have I have seen and we'll come on to it probably a bit later, as well, I have seen where and again, that 1000 expansions were a nice simple, this is a four player two to four player game has turned into with a five and six player expansion and a solo mode and a cooperative mode and a semi cooperative and a campaign mode. And you're like, Where's all this come from? It started off as a nice four player, then someone's asked for coops you've done that. And then someone's asked all five and six players. And they've done that. And you think is this now the product that I backed on day one? Because it doesn't feel like it anymore? To me,

JP  31:17  
this is a difference, isn't it if I have potentially a publisher, or whoever's kind of managing that Kickstarter, or crowdfund is kind of being a bit of a sellout, because they're going, Ah, someone's asked for Co Op all now how many people would buy a co-op if we added an extra box on that? The Yeah, loads of money throw it in.  It's not for the good of the game, not just for purely a profit thing, which let's face it, it's a product supposed to make profit. That's the whole purpose of it. But actually, what you're suggesting on the positive to bring it back, again, is to kind of tweak the game, the idea, the premise the project itself, and actually trying to make it better and elevate it through the feedback or people maybe have tested it on Tabletop Simulator simulator, live live kind of feedback. 

Kerley  32:03  
Yeah, I do think that Kickstarter is essentially struggle is not just about whether you create all the additional add ons for loads of extra money and things like that. It's also about the marketing managers and everyone else trying to ride a hype wave without turning it into some sort of mob going after their blood regarding things that are missing that other people think should be part of it. So I think it's a matter of maybe the third thing that I think FrostHaven is Isaac Childres, yeah Childres he's come out. And he's always really frank with his communication, like, we've decided to do this, or we've decided against that, and just been really honest with people about the direction of where it's going. And I think that's a really important start part of a good Kickstarter. And that is where it's important to be able to challenge going to your point of, you know, you don't always know what you want, is what it comes down to. So you know, it's an important part of a designer's job to actually say, we don't think it's going to work in the way that you got.

JP  33:05  
This isn't my vision.

Adrian  33:07  
Yeah, it's important to put that line in the sand and go, no, okay, we were listening to you up to this point. However, that's not going to work with and I think, as you say, a good marketing manager will do that. And I think we've kind of skirted around a point here as well, I think can make or break a Kickstarter, which is stretch goals. Yeah. So once you've hit your total, normally, for a lot of Kickstarters, what will then do is, oh, if we get another 20,000, we'll add in this character, or this upgrade. Some of them are definitely prebaked. I think a lot these days are now pre baked in is that they already know they're going to launch all this stuff, they already know they're going to well over, like over hit their benchmark in 10 minutes within 10 minutes, but then they've mapped out where they're going to be by the end of it, because there's a lot of tools out there now to do that. And it's like, oh, we're gonna make the linen box finish. We do that on all your other games. Why would you not have that built into this one? It's because you want to put a stretch goal to gain height. And I think there are some good ones that have done that, that where you've seen genuinely good stretch goals. I think for me, the ones that stick in my head is where the stretch goals have gone too far. And my one of my personal ones is Batman, Gotham City Chronicles.

Kerley  34:20  
Yeah, this is it. I don't feel it's quite been as bad but maybe that's because I've been going for games that tend that way. Yeah. But yeah, I do think that my biggest problem, I hey those to be honest. I don't even want to go into money. But you spent a lot of money on Too Many Bones. Right? Yeah. Yeah. through Kickstarter / Gamefound

JP  34:39  
Gets brought up every episode

Kerley  34:38  
Yeah too right as well. But for an example me You know, I don't mind it's me. I spend 300 pound on Terraforming Mars. Because I bought the big box all the expansions or loads of extra metal cubes, 3d printed little ships. You know, all of this stuff. But I knew what I was getting. I played the game. I love the game. I want them to spend on a bit of playing a bit of extras. Right? So that is a totally different experience to buying a game that you have never played, but potentially not seeing reviewed. Yeah, and you're spending 600 pounds on it. Now my question is alright you can like the IP. But that's a big difference between like in the board game,

Adrian  35:16  
when I back to the Great Wall, I deliberately went for meeples rather than figures because it half the cost. And I knew then that if like half the cost, and it meant it was an OK game, I didn't feel as bad as if they are beautiful miniatures, they're absolutely lovely. I've seen them in person kind of started to rethink that decision. But for the most part, I think I have done the right thing by going with meeples But it doubled the price of the game to have all these tasty looking miniatures in the box. And again, I think my spending habits have changed slightly because of that sort of weariness of the fact that I have got rid of most Kickstarters that have come in because they haven't ended up hitting my top 50 list. And I've only got so much shelf space. So if it's not going to hit the top 50, it's going to take up two Kallax cubes, or whatever it is with all these miniatures. It's not worth it for me. And so that's kind of not soured. But it certainly made me more wise to what I decide to kick start and how far I go into that Kickstarter.

JP  36:15  
I think it's like a circle for me is you know, the beginning of this circle when you've not done it before. And you kind of go in and go, Oh, this is really exciting and never ever gone through Kickstarter, get all this new cool stuff, and, and then you kind of, you know, gets a bit addictive and you keep doing it more and more and more. And I think now what's kind of taught me and it wasn't even a Kickstarter game was Dune Imperium, right. And Dune Imperium, the base game just comes with cubes comes with wooden meeple components. And it's fine. Like it actually is fine. And now the since then we've done a deluxe upgrades all minis and all that stuff. I'm just not interested in nothing at all. I've changed. I feel like I've grown up for lack of matured, and even to the point where I've backed ISS Vanguard, which is another way and Awaken Realms, kind of story based game. Lot like Mass Effect, basically how it plays. They had the usual you can buy the minis and 

Adrian  37:11  
And the upgraded dice

JP  37:12  
Yeah, added another 150, 160 quid on top. And now I'm good thanks, that shoulders go with the base and try out. Like you said, if it's not my thing, it's less of a less of a risk.

Adrian  37:26  
Less on it in the first place. So it's it's okay to then had less of an experience with

JP  37:31  
It's an Awaken Realms I'm sure someone would have it if I didn't like it. 

Adrian  37:34  
I think as well, we've kind of mentioned there a couple of times about shipping and that kind of stuff. And I think it's fair to say that in England we're in. We've had a probably a rougher time of kickstart in the last couple of years, obviously, both EU and British taxes changed in regards to Kickstarters. So we now get taxed on it. Whereas before there seemed to be I'm not an expert, but certainly companies whether they should or shouldn't have been doing tax, we're definitely getting around it. And so we weren't necessarily paying tax. No. And then on top of that, we've had shipping, which has gone up globally. But also, trying to get it into England has also gone up in price from mainland Europe. And so when I saw the Marvel Zombies, I was kind of surprised. And kind of not at the same time because it's like, Oh, his 240 pound of tax and shipping and I kind of went yeah, sounds about right. It's a lot, but it sounds about right. And now when I'm backing a game, I've just late backed Primal The Awakening, which again is kind of probably a bit against my better sensibilities because it's, you know, for a base plus a couple of expansions was getting to about 200 euros, and I'm going to pay shipping on top of that, at some point in the future. I could be paying 300 pound for this game potentially. And you just kind of go adds 50% On to the cost and it makes what was before potentially like a no brainer. If you like the look of the game you were probably getting it cheaper, or same plot price as retail. Now sometimes the games get here, they hit retail. Yeah, they may not have a couple of extra miniatures or a couple of extra cards promo cards. You can get them cheaper in a board game store than you can from the Kickstarter themselves. I've noticed a few and I've noticed a few comments on socials of yet it was five pound cheaper. I didn't get the promo cards but it's five pound cheaper to wait for it

Kerley  39:35  
I think. No, you're absolutely right. 100% what it would say is as I think it's people and I don't know whether it's just me, but when I was backing Kickstarter it wasn't really a massive concern of mine. Because you were never really massively shocked by anything. You might have a quick look at the shipping but that would be about it. But now whenever I back Kickstarter first thing I do is have a look what the shipping is gonna be like have a look. It does include VAT. and all that kind of stuff. VAT friendly? Yeah, exactly. Because you could be looking at well, like you said, I mean, I haven't seen 50%. But I've seen getting on that way, you know, paying 30 40% more. Yeah, you know, because well, VAT is 20%. There's there's that straightaway. And then, depending on what type of game it is, so if you are looking at, you know, base game plus about 18 expansions, you can guarantee the shipping is going to be well over 100. So, yeah, absolutely makes me research it a lot more than they used to put it that way.

Adrian  40:27  
Yeah, I think that's I think it sounds like we're heading in the right direction, the same direction, which is to say we're still backing Kickstarters. Right? 

JP  40:35  
We're a hell of a lot more choosier

Adrian  40:36  
 Yeah, just choose your a bit more picky actually doing a bit more research about the company's shipping taxes, what's involved with it, who's got behind it? Watching reviews and stuff like that when we do back, but I think it is fair to say we're still looking at Kickstarter and Gamefound websites on a fairly regular basis. Very regular stuff for me, unfortunately, to see what's coming out there. 

So Well, I think that's a pretty succinct summation of how we feel about crowdfunding culture, what we've done and what we're going to do. If you think we're right, if you think we're wrong, if you think we've missed something, we've definitely missed something. Please add comments onto our Facebook or Instagram. Can you comment on Instagram? Yes. Okay, cool. Brilliant. 

JP  41:22  
We're the cool kids right

Adrian  41:24  
I don't do Instagram.

JP  41:26  
You can in TikTok as well. Yes. What is this video bollocks?

Adrian  41:31  
Yeah, please leave us a comment and just just let us know what you were thinking that we missed or got wrong or right.

JP  41:37  
Yeah, we love engagement, don't we? We just want to get engagement. So if anyone comments, we get little buzzing. Ah, someone's listened. Which is always good. So yeah,

Adrian  41:46  
it's like unlocking a stretch goal on Kickstarter. Cheesy tie in right.

Now on to our turn three, where we'll be answering listeners question. Today, we've had Rhiannon who wrote in and asked, Do you think solo modes should be included as standard in the base game? 

JP  42:14  
No.

Adrian  42:20  
Go and JP expand a little bit more on your one syllable.

JP  42:24  
I think solo games or solo modes, they? Well, they need to be good, which is pretty obvious statement to make, right. But I think the solo gaming and multiplayer gaming are quite different experiences. Like, for example Kerley you don't do solo gaming, you don't get anything out of it. Whereas I do a bit of both for the bit solo, as I talked about earlier with Under Falling Skies, which is a purely solo game, which is kind of why I like it, because it's designed for that. So the reason why I kind of jumped and say no, is unless it's well thought out. And replicate either replicates the multiplayer experience in a way that doesn't have all the massive overhead. Now some of the solo modes can have, then the you know, I'm all for it. But if it's a bolt on, like we said earlier, this oh we're just adding it in because we're trying to appeal to the solo players out there, then don't bother. Honestly, don't bother. It's not gonna make me buy it. Personally,

Adrian  43:24  
I mean, you've mentioned about having the same feel as the multiplayer game. But I think maybe I've been wrong. But when you've talked about Cloudspire before you've said that has a very different feeling solo to how it does multiplayer it does it How does that feel? 

JP  43:39  
Yeah, it doesn't always have to be a different all the same. And I think there can be good solo modes that the both right so the Cloudspire is a great example. You're playing a puzzle, you're not playing an opponent, essentially, you're trying to crack through the puzzle. So when you do it, you feel clever. And it's all good. Same on Under Falling Skies. That's the same kind of principle. The one solo mode that it really do like, is an acronym a new one that they released with the Fractures of Time. It's a cracking solo mode. Yeah, actually feels like you're playing an opponent and the way it works. Very, very clever. Not too bad on the overhead. My only problem is it doesn't get to the table a lot. No, because it's it's an Anachrony, it's not like it's a quick game. I can just whip out I've got a separate bloody thing up loads of bits to it. I've got to be in the mood. 

Adrian  44:27  
And I think I think that's it isn't it is. I'm not much of a solo gamer. If your solo mode is going to detract from the main game, I'm going to say please keep it out of the box. What I will say is if you are a big solo game, and you like multiplayer, that adds a lot of value to one game. Having said that, yet similar to you. I've looked at Marvel champions. I've played solo because it adds no extra rules to it. Yeah, there's a bit of setup, but I've played that solo a few times, and I've played

JP  44:57  
Do you solo one character do you solo two-handed

Adrian  45:00  
No no one character, so I understand why people do two handed. But ultimately, that's just one person playing two players. That's not a solo mode to me, I know that some companies will try and sell you different on that. But to me, like, yeah, you're gonna play one handed, it's you're gonna play one character and you're going to have a go at the boss it still adds no rules.

JP  45:20  
I think I prefer it when a game is different solo always designed purely for solo. So actually, one of the Kickstarters that's coming that I'm actually really excited for is Hoplomachus Victorum, which is purely solo game, don't get me wrong, there's the multiplayer remastered, probably gotten that as well. But the Victorum is purely solo in the way that it works. And I can see myself playing that. Because it's interesting the way it works mechanically or gladiators going around the world fighting all that kind of stuff. So I think the thing that interests me more now, having kind of played a lot of these big box games that have solo modes or complex automato's In there. I think I was thinking, do I play them? I'd rather play them more generally. So I think that's kind of where I'm landing with it.

Kerley  46:09  
I think I won't say too much on solo gaming because you're quite right. My biggest problem with a mess is the setup time really is what it comes down to interest level. Never interested enough to go through that setup time. And I do like my big games. So there's usually a big setup time. Yeah. So if I've got to do that, just for my own satisfaction, not play with someone not interested. I use computer gaming for that itch, 

JP  46:33  
which makes sense. 

Kerley  46:34  
And then, you know, the flipside to the point that you're making, I think I can probably sum up from what I can hear of what you guys are saying is just purely and simply, if a game has a bolt on solo mode, that makes sense. Do it. Yeah, but I do believe they're trying to sometimes fit, you know, 

Adrian  46:53  
everything into one box. 

Kerley  46:54  
Exactly. So if it leads that way, brilliant, like, off the top of my head, I can well imagine that Too Many Bones plays really well, single player, right? As well as it does two, three and four. Yes, exactly. 

JP  47:08  
I'm gonna say that. 

Kerley  47:09  
But that's the type of game that I can well imagine bleeds into it really, really well. But do not try and fit in a square peg round hole. Basically, the other thing is as well, when I say bought computer games, I don't only mean computer games, I also mean board games that are on the computer. So for an example, I play a lot of Terraforming Mars on my own against AI, 

Adrian  47:28  
Yeah me too

Kerley  47:28  
Yeah, yeah, I'd say Dominion like that. I've played a few games. I've played Lords of Waterdeep with the expansions I played against the AI, you know. So that's that I much prefer that style of solo play. 

JP  47:41  
That's because of the setup zero. Isn't it

Kerley  47:43  
Exactly 100%

Adrian  47:44  
Also, there's no automata because the computer does all that math. Yeah, it either creates an a, an AI, or it replicates that automata that you get in the board game. one for one. Yeah. And yeah, I do agree that quite often if there's an app for it, and so low might have a look at it if I've enjoyed the multiplayer.

JP  48:02  
Yeah, definitely. There we go.

Adrian  48:04  
I think we've answered that one, then. Thank you very much. If anyone out there has got any more questions for us or any more topics they think they'd like us to cover, please feel free to ask. And we shall add it to the list. 

JP  48:15  
Get those questions.

Adrian  48:23  
So in our penultimate turn, we'd like to talk about what we're going to be doing in the near future gaming and non gaming related. Going and JP I can see you brimming with excitement.

JP  48:34  
I'm very excited. I mean, in the last episode, I mentioned Champions of Midgard which we still haven't played yet. But that's coming up Friday. But actually, I completely forgot that was in the list is Game of Thrones. So we're going back to the start. So Game of Thrones is pretty much the game like got the group going, as we talked about many times. And I think we probably get get into the table once or twice a year. 

Kerley  48:56  
One I would say, 

JP  48:57  
probably say one. I always enjoy it. It's usually a long old, bloody game. Which is why we only play at the weekends. Yeah. But yeah, it's just, it's just fun can just be a bit of a knob and in the game, and it's allowed, you know, it's encouraged.

Kerley  49:18  
I love it. I absolutely love it. One of my favourites I would say probably top 10 But there's some obvious flaws. Oh, yeah. 

JP  49:25  
It's an old game though isn't it

Kerley  49:26  
yeah, exactly. But I just love it. There's something about the way you will flip them a year old time and the feel of it. Love Game of Thrones anyway, that just is one of my favourites. I'm really looking forward to that too. 

JP  49:38  
Yeah, I think we've got four people plan to come. So actually, I think we'll probably just stick with a Westeros map, which I'll probably make you happier Kerley to be fair, because it will be a bit like the old school games might still use the vassal houses in because they're always good fun. But we'll see. So yeah, well, hopefully we'll get that to the table. I'm saying hopefully because who knows. so I think if it drops under three people, we won't be playing it.

Adrian  50:02  
I've played it. The first game I ever had was three player and it didn't quite hitright. And I played again for player and I could see and I haven't played it 

JP  50:09  
Prefer five or six if i'm being honest

Adrian  50:10  
Yeah, it's been quite a few years since I've played it. I'm really looking forward to it. I've been playing a lot of Song of Ice and Fire, which is the tabletop miniature game. And man, it's got my Game of Thrones, sort of my love back again, from the since the TV show, sort of, 

JP  50:26  
it just feels like an event. It's got that kind of Twilight Imperium vibe to it, where you're gonna turn up. It's a bit of an eventy day thing. And it doesn't matter if it takes four or five, six hours, whatever.  Just get on with it

Kerley  50:38  
we got four, four confirmed and one maybe so I feel like if we are struggling, we could probably poke a few people. Right places and we'll get

JP  50:47  
Or slit their throats 

Adrian  50:48  
it's one way to do it. Yeah, I'm wearing chainmail. That's

JP  50:52  
That's me. That's why I'm excited for

Kerley  50:54  
Yeah, fair enough. I am also excited for that. But we've got well, let me think we got the UKGE coming up. So yeah, so that and that's going to be in a very short amount of time really looking forward to going up for my first time going to go two years ago. But COVID happened. Obviously all the tickets were booked and everything else and the year before. I bought tickets, but then something

JP  51:17  
happened but your friend came and visited from Korea. That was exactly you had to choose between your friend who was visiting. Or us. Yeah, and we lost out.,

Adrian  51:26  
You could do both. Can you just wandering around the exhibition? For a few times? 

JP  51:31  
Jetlagged to hell

Kerley  51:32  
I mean, it'd be fair, you'd be well up for it. He doesn't really know board games, but it was just the first time meeting his wife, I think, 

Adrian  51:38  
yeah, it's totally understandable. 

Kerley  51:41  
Yeah, so it was a big guy to me. But you're right, that was exactly what it was. So I'm really looking forward to that. Gonna go for only for two days, but all of Friday, pretty much all a Saturday. I think my wife Becky has been on the show is taking part in the Crokinole Championship in that. So she's looking forward to that one. I need to go and have a look at the events and see whether I'm gonna sign up to anything. I don't know if I will. But maybe if there's something Terraforming Mars or something like that, that's what I signed up to last time. 

JP  52:07  
There's usually a Knightmare Live event really like Knightmare. There's always a kind of comedic version of that going on. I'm not seen it. I always think I'm gonna go and watch it, but I never do.

Kerley  52:19  
But yeah, games wise. I've got too much in that. Although I want to speak to these guys about planning in a particular game that I think would be a favourite of Adrian's that he hasn't played I don't think

Adrian  52:29  
Do tease

Kerley  52:29  
Icaion, me and JP absolutely loves. It seems like the type of game that I reckon you'd really like. 

Adrian  52:36  
I'll always give it a go.

Kerley  52:38  
This was one of my successful Kickstarters. But yeah, have you ever had a Mysthea, it's a it's a nice puzzlely kind of Euro II type game with a roleplay elements. And it's really cool. It's really, really the same with a very unique theme about like, essentially looting a moving Titan 

JP  53:00  
Big golem thing

Kerley  53:02  
that you'll you'll I think it is right up your alley. And it's extremely high rated, highly rated, so I'm gonna get that in soon and I'll know JP will be up for it. So that's basically it. We've got I think I've got a Mansions of Madness coming up. And, you know, a few other bits of Perseverance as well.

JP  53:20  
Yeah. Nice. What about you Adrian,

Adrian  53:22  
I think in just a couple of days time, I've mentioned it already a couple of times is the Great Wall. Yeah, I have had the Kickstarter sat on the shelf for a long time. And I'll be honest with you, I was scared of the teach it a lot of interlocking pieces where you clearly have to explain one piece, leave it out there to kind of go, I'm telling you about this, because it's gonna relate to this, which is gonna relate to this, which is gonna relate to this. And then if you come back around to that first bit, I taught you that's how it relates to that. And I just was not looking forward to it whatsoever. The rulebook has had a fair bit of criticism, because it's not quite... it's an Awakens Realms rule book, but then never the greatest. So it's coming to a fair bit of criticism. I've watched a couple of YouTube videos now where they do teach, and I think I've understood the game enough, whether or not it's a teach it so we're gonna get it to the table later this week. And I'm really looking forward to it I've really wanted to play it just just scared me. I think there are some games that you just get, and they genuinely scare you a little bit to kind of get them out for the first time and everything that comes with it. And that was just one of those for me, but super excited to be playing that

JP  54:33  
I'm just intrigued to see how an Awakened Realms game kind of works as a Euro game, because I've never played one of those as a euro. And only one thing I gotta say, yeah, that everything else is really thematic and just a different vibe all together. So I'm just I'm intrigued by it. I've heard about it. I've seen it before. Yeah, I'm definitely willing to give it a go. 

Adrian  54:55  
When you put perseverance out I was like, I have I now got a game that's going to topple The Great Wall because the first episode has that you have elephants that you are defending it. And there's all of this people work a placement behind it, it did look a lot like it. I think having played the the episode one of perseverance and having watched enough of the Great Wall to understand it, I think there's gonna be enough difference in there for us to see whether or not ones come out on top, like, you know, or if they're dissimilar enough to have them both as options, but now I'm really excited for that.

JP  55:29  
Okay, exciting times. Lots, as always, lots of stuff to look forward to. Right.

Adrian  55:33  
Yeah, good times. And with that, our final turn is wrapping up and victory points are about to be scored. Thanks, everyone for listening. If you've enjoyed the show, please like, subscribe and leave us a review on your favourite podcast player. If you want to get in touch with the show we now have several methods of doing so. Either email us at players@whoseturn.co.uk Check us out on Facebook at Whose Turn Is It Anyway Podcast or the Instagram page @whoseturnpodcast or Finally if you're not an old man like me TikTok @whoseturnisitanyway, we'll be back in two weeks with another episode. So until then, whose turn is it anyway?

Transcribed by https://otter.ai