Episode 14: Games that stand the test of time

Becky  0:25  
Welcome to Whose turn is it anyway, a boardgame podcast where we talk about this great hobby with our gaming group. I'm Becky, the current first player. And the main focus of the episode today is on games that stand the test of time. But before we get into that, let's introduce our players today. We've got Kerley,

Kerley  0:41  
Hello, 

Becky  0:42  
Ian

Ian  0:42  
Hello,

Becky  0:43  
And JP.

JP  0:44  
 How's it going?

Becky  0:45  
 How are we all today?

JP  0:46  
Pretty good. Tired. 

Becky  0:51  
Working hard?

JP  0:56  
 No, I've just celebrated my wife Chell's 40th birthday. Yeah, happy birthday to you my love.

Ian  1:05  
She listens, right? 

JP  1:05  
She does. She has to, its in the contract she makes sure that I'm not slagging her off, or I'm just genuinely behaving

Ian  1:15  
When you say contract. Do you mean your marriage? 

JP  1:17  
Yes. 

Ian  1:18  
She probably doesn't want you to call it a contract now.

JP  1:21  
My human binding contract for life. But no, we had a great weekend. Lots of beer. We we had this really... because we rented this place with a swimming pool. And we had this intense competitive water volleyball tournament. About one in the morning.

Becky  1:43  
I'm sure everyone else who was living around the area was very pleased

JP  1:47  
Yeah, they probably told us to shut up. But it was great fun, and we enjoyed it. So I'm a bit tired, but always ready to talk games.

Becky  1:54  
I'm bit sad, because today is my last day of annual leave. Back to work tomorrow.

JP  2:01  
It's got to be done. Sorry.

Becky  2:12  
Before we get stuck into the main topic of today, let's talk about hex where we round up the latest games we've been playing recently. So who wants to start?

JP  2:20  
I'm gonna talk about a game that Davey very briefly mentioned a couple of episodes ago, and as I briefly mentioned, it was about 20 seconds. So I feel like I need to revisit this game, which is Anno 1800. So this game I have no knowledge of it's a PC game, apparently and Kerley is gonna look and go 'Of course it is'.

Kerley  2:42  
Yes, it is. 

JP  2:43  
But it's a very well regarded PC Resource Management strategic kind of game, I assume, I have no idea. So it's basically set around the 1800's Funnily enough, 

Kerley  2:58  
The idea is, you all have your own islands and you build up your land there as an explorer, and you build it up, and you build industries slowly from stone cutting and making bricks, going all the way up to...

JP  3:12  
Like The Settlers?

Kerley  3:16  
Like you said, the way you described it actually was quite chillingly good. Just say it's just the resource manager. Like,

JP  3:22  
I thought you were joking? So the the boardgame adaptation of it was actually bloody brilliant.

Becky  3:34  
Lots of icons though, isn't there? I was helping to pop all the pieces out, cos Kerley hates popping out games. And I was just flabbergasted by how many different little icons there could be. 

JP  3:45  
I think Davey mentioned it on the other episode, we said, well, you quoted me saying 'I think this game is going to be a bit simple'.

Becky  3:54  
Yeah,

JP  3:55  
I think I kind of standby it in the fact that it's simple, mechanically, which means you can get to it straightaway. It's clicking very fast in terms of what you need to do, where the complexity comes in is the actual map choices and paths that you need to go down. Which is actually what makes it fun. But essentially, you kind of got this middle board right, where you've got all the industry tiles out, like you say the bricks, the pigs, the sausages and the gin and all the other things. There's loads of them 

Becky  4:24  
All the things toy need for a standard life?

JP  4:27  
Yeah. And on them there's like, well, there's a requirement that you need to have, like for pigs, you need to... sorry for sausages, you need to havecoal and pigs industries and therefore you can unlock the sausages which should be good in anyones book, but the whole purpose is that you have this hand of cards and they represent the population of your workers and the different types, and on the cards have your requirements of what you want to get to, so it kind of gives you a path to go towards. And that whole mechanic basically the game ends once you've played all your hand of cards, but throughout the game, you want more workers. So you end up drawing more cards and you have more puzzle. So it kind of enhances the puzzle that you need to work out. And it's brilliant. I just really enjoyed it. Like, just, yeah, surprised me, actually. I just thought, Oh, this is gonna be another dry trading resource worker placementy kind of game. But I just thought that just the hand management that that aspects of it is why I really enjoyed is working out, right if I get that card done, and that gives me this and I can get that thing to do that. And you comboing left, right and centre. It's brilliant.

Becky  5:30  
It was just quite funny from an outsider point of view hearing 'who's got, who's got sausages?' Yeah. And it was just quite funny

JP  5:37  
It's the trading big and this brilliant bit about it. It's like, just waiting for someone to build sausages. If they build the sausages, and I can trade those sausages and use it to get this thing that I really want. But if I have to build thm,  I'm gonna have to invest all three turns to get sausages. And then someone builds it. Everyone goes, Yeah, sausages are available as a whole. Yeah. And obviously that's probably more true for the more kind of complex resources like tractors and steam

Ian  6:05  
I think everyone will be most happy when sausages happen. That sounds thematically correct.

JP  6:10  
It's just great fun. It's just works really well. It's quick as well, quick turns. And when we played it, well. I mean, our first game was under three hours,

Kerley  6:19  
Oh yeah, well under 3 hours. So one of the things that impressed me about the game was the lots of different new ish themes that there were, and the mechanics. So one of which was the fact that, as you said, the end of the game is triggered by you having played all your cards, well, you don't have to draw very many at all, I drew absolutely loads so that I had loads of workers so I could do more, you drew less so the game finished earlier but you had to deal with having less workers to do what you wanted to do. So it was an interesting balance. And then it ended quite early because you went down that particular tactic I think it would have gone on longer otherwise and it was an interesting one. Because even though you finished the game did you end up winning?

JP  7:05  
No I was second

Kerley  7:06  
Exactly. So just because you've managed to finish it and get the extra bonus for finishing and you decide, doesn't mean that you actually win so it's quite interesting

Ian  7:14  
Not that JP's bitter at all. I said that through gritted teeth 'well  did you win? No!!!'.

JP  7:19  
I still got one more point than Kerley, no, but it was right the timing of when do you end that game is critical, it's critical. And we don't know the game well enough to know when is at this stage but yeah, just really good fun. I'd recommend it to anyone who kind of likes games to be honest it's pretty good.

Kerley  7:41  
So game that I've played with JP as well to be fair, so we could say about Anno and Civ be honest, is Civilization the board game, the 2010 version. There are a few different versions now but I'm not saying this is the best one because I haven't given enough time to the other ones but certainly the one that I was recommended and we are loving it so far. Absolutely loving it. I have been through and talked about it briefly before so I won't spend too long on it. However, I haven't talked about it since getting the new expansions which is the main one was Wisdom and Warfare. So it's basically a Civilization game based around, it was released around the same time as Civilization five on the PC. It does have fairly similar elements to Civilization 4, the idea being stuff your civilization back in God, I'm trying to remember what it was, like 2000 BCE and the original game, something like that. You're slowly building up from one town, one little village through time. More cities, bigger civilizations, getting new technology as you go through fights and you know, exploration and everything else is your classic fairly classic 4X game really. Yeah, and just we've, we've played it a few times before, but I would say this one felt like a little bit of a 'okay, we all understand what we're doing now, we all understand the game a little bit better'. It flowed a lot better. And we had the time to actually do it, which previously I think had been an issue because I turned up here for our, not our first game but like our second game, and we had to do a yours for some reason. So I couldn't set it up prior I turned up at about quarter to the hour of when we were meant to be starting, and it took about an hour to set up. It was the biggest pain in ass to set u game that I've come across to be honest, but because I was already pretty much ready to go at seven and it took us about what three and a half, four hours in the end. Yeah. And even then we could have done that a lot quicker. It's just a lot of AP moments, you know, but yeah, just to say we thoroughly enjoyed it. It was really close game back and forth. I got to nuke Davey which made my afternoon, I don't even care that I got, you know, I lost on the last time I got to nuke Davey, so I'm happy. So yeah, it's just really good fun. Looking forward to the next one loads, and I think JP would go along with that.

JP  10:02  
Yeah, yeah 100% I think that last game is the first time the new expansions not only Wisdom and Warfare but Fame and Fortune as well, just all, I don't know, it all kind of clicked because I've not played the expansions enough. We probably not played the base game enough in all fairness. And yeah, it would just it all just kind of came together. And there's a moment that I just loved, which was I tried to play as Ghandi. Basically, it was like they were just like, leave me alone. Let me just do my thing. Peace and Love man.

Ian  10:34  
Let me guess Kerley was having none of that

JP  10:37  
Oh, he was directly opposite me. So I was like, the furthest away from Kerley. And then I had Jay to my right and Davey kind of ahead of me. 

Ian  10:46  
And was Kerley sort of defending your honour a bit when he nuked Davey, was it kind of you know...

JP  10:51  
No. They were... it was happening. And yeah, that was a moment where Davey's Aztec forces were coming down. And I had like these culture cards, which is what you kind of can play in, prevent nasty things from happening. And I managed to kill one of his kind of units off before we initiate the battle. And it literally came down to a draw. Right, and the defender always breaks the ties and the draw. It's that close because if he had won that, then game over for me. As I managed to kind of hold on and fend him off at a point where I had like crap technologies. My military was pants, and it just enabled me to kind of push the cultural victory which I managed to win my first ever Civ game, which I was well chuffed because I'd never won that in my life. And and I hardly know what I'm doing in it. Let alone winning it. 

Kerley  11:36  
It was a really interesting game because Jay started off really weak. Yeah. Davey, start off really strong as like the big warmongery faction. I kind of fought with him a lot. Then nuked him. Okay, he's gone, basically. And you kind of snuck in and won the victory. So it's kind of like one of those little under dog moments.

JP  11:55  
It came to... you would have won on the next turn.  And I just had to delay you somehow.  Luckily, stopped you. Yeah. Very good.

Kerley  12:05  
Very good fun anyway, yeah.

Becky  12:06  
Did the expansions make such a difference than do they work? Do they change the game dynamics?

Kerley  12:11  
The Fame and Fortune expansion adds, in my opinion, more variety. So you've got different ways of winning, you've got a little bit of balancing on some of it. You're more wonders you've got. God is that the city state introduction? Yeah, so I think that was the city state, more civilizations to choose from. So it's all about variety. However, the big one is Wisdom and Warfare, because that actually, although it did add all of those things, bit more variety, few more civilizations, but it totally revamped the combat. So the combat cards were, and we won't go into too much detail. But essentially, the cards were a little bit of a rock, paper, scissors. So you had just a simple change, I wouldn't have thought made a difference. But every card that you drew had a health value of usually one two or three somewhere around the area. Well, in the original game was just one damage and one health, two damage to health. They're all linear like that. Whereas the new version introduces asymmetrical one. So you have one guy that does one damage, but it's got three health, and another one that does three damage has got one health and another one that's got two of each. So it's very much there's a lot more variation. And it makes a huge difference as to what tactics...

Ian  13:23  
Yeah, cos then you've probably got some kind of units then are more like glass cannons? Yeah,

Kerley  13:27  
Yeah exactly. 

Ian  13:28  
You've got your kind of defenders that you just put out there. 

Kerley  13:30  
And I wouldn't have thought that would made a big difference. But it just does. I can't... I can't put my finger on why but it just does.

Ian  13:36  
That's what a good expansion does, right? It's just not make fundamental sweeping changes, but just tweak things in a way that add some interest or some new dynamics.

Becky  13:46  
I was going to talk about Barenpark. 

JP  13:49  
Bear Tetris. 

Becky  13:50  
Yeah. And it's it's just a small box game of Tetris. Basically, where the shapes you choose have got certain victory points on them. And you're building a Bear Park and Barenpark is German for 'Bear Park', it's really quick to set up like super quick, and really easy to play, easy to learn the rules, Kerley obviously has won every time. Although, you know, a couple of days ago, we did draw, but the tie break was on unused pieces. And of course, he had like a few more unused pieces than I had, which is typical.

Ian  14:19  
Kerley would point out that that wasn't a draw, that's another victory.

Kerley  14:23  
No actually, despite my reputation, I said, Let's just call it a draw, because it really was. 

Becky  14:29  
It's really cute. 

Kerley  14:30  
Then you've got the rulebook out and 'er, lets just have a look, well I do still win'

I'm not actually a big fan of tie breakers.

Becky  14:38  
But it is a really cute game. You were quite reluctant at first to play, weren't you? Because it looks kind of... Well, I think you thought that it was totally purely puzzle based, but actually it's quite a lot more about efficiency. And how quickly do I complete this part versus do I choose the higher point pieces or whatever, but you've been...

Kerley  14:59  
Yeah, So well, it actually strikes similarly to Anno 1800 with you actually JP yeah, in the fact that this one just caught me totally by surprise because I really didn't expect to like it. Because I don't, I'm not a big fan of Sagrada. I'm not huge fan of Azul I'm not a huge fan of anything that's too puzzley. I don't know why I can't put my finger on why but I just, I'm not, I don't have a great time while playing them. And I thought that fit into the same bracket, really doesn't it's totally right up my alley... efficiency. And there isn't, there isn't a puzzle involved really? Beyond kind of Yeah, beyond efficiency and it is just plays really quick. Really good fun. Lots of interaction. quite satisfying game I would, I would say is my favourite really small game. It is really good? We played like three or four times and...

JP  15:54  
Is it quite like the... not going to compare it to Tapestry but is it like the putting the buildings down on the mat in Tapestry where you're trying to fit the pieces around to get stuff?

Kerley  16:04  
Yes, but more forgiving. Yeah. Yeah, more forgiving in the way that you know, there's always a good option is just whether there was a more optimal option, you know? So, but yeah, not dissimilar. I would say not dissimilar.

Becky  16:21  
Yeah, I like it ... well the only thing I can say that is bad about it is the box kind of divider, rubbish. Throw it out. Don't... Don't even bother.

Ian  16:30  
You are quite the connoisseur of box inserts? Standards are high 

Becky  16:34  
I was disappointed with this. So my my preferred method of organising the box, should anybody be interested, is have all the pieces in baggies for a two player game, and add the extra ones in a separate baggie for three player games, and another baggie for a four player game. That way, when it's just the two of you, you can just dump out the ones that are two player. Simple. And it's really easy. Yeah, you could teach a child to play it's all about use this piece to cover that little picture of say a wheelbarrow, which gets you one of a certain kind of shape. If you cover over that little white kind of cement truck, then you get access to other shapes. And if you cover the big orange kind of, I don't know, like JCB kind of cherry picker type truck you get special shapes.

Ian  17:16  
And what do you need to cover up in order to get sausages?

Kerley  17:21  
If you're making sausaged out of bears, youve got an issue

Ian  17:26  
Theamaticaly that could go into some dark territory couldn't it?

Becky  17:28  
So the Four Bears you've got koalas, pandas. I think they're called Gobi Desert bears. But we call them chip bears, because they're kind of walking on yellow rocks, which look in the picture exactly like a portion of like, chips, fries. Fries for Americans. But yeah, the chip bears and what was.... oh polar bears? Of course. Yeah. It's just a cutesy little game. But it's just quick and easy. And this was another one that Adrian suggested I played. And yeah, he wasn't wrong. Really good.

JP  18:00  
How many games have you bought that he suggested you play?

Becky  18:03  
I mean, yeah. Last episode, he did say I was a salesman dream. I don't want to borrow them, I want to own them!

JP  18:11  
Have them in my collection. 

Becky  18:12  
Acquisition! How about you Ian?

Ian  18:17  
So I've managed to maintain my excellent record of having probably the lowest attendance of anyone in the group to any actual game nights. So unfortunately, I missed Kerley's all day birthday gaming.

JP  18:29  
And why was that Ian?

Ian  18:30  
I don't think we need to talk about that. So I met up with a friend for some drinks the day before. And events ensued, and I was unable to attend the next day. I may or may not have fallen asleep on a train and ended up at the end of the line. Very late at night, many hundreds of miles from my home.

Kerley  18:51  
Classic Ian

Ian  18:52  
So yes, I unfortunately didn't make that. So yeah, I actually almost can't remember the last group game that I did make it probably 24 hour board game marathon was the last time I played anything with people in the group from what I can recall. It wasn't that long ago. But what I did want to bring up was I know JP you have played some Netrunner. Which is definitely something in my wheelhouse. And I was curious how that had gone for you because you were on holiday. Right? And you managed to get Rob hooked.

JP  19:24  
Yeah, managed to take a couple of the kind of starter decks from Nisei that they they're kind of released as a pack because as I kind of mentioned, I think a few episodes ago that I kind of re purchase Netrunner because I kind of miss it. 

Ian  19:39  
It was you who got me into it. I've got you to blame for my boxes and boxes of Netunner that I have

JP  19:47  
You have and I just missed... I've missed it for a long time. But then I kind of just thought No let's let's give this a little go and have a little small collection to kind of play and not go too mad on it.

Ian  19:58  
It's a really good time to be doing that. Because like you say, the system gateway and yeah, some startup that Nisei are releasing at the moment. It's a really, really good time. There's kind of a lot of older cards being rotated out so people don't have to worry about oh, can I get hold of all this old fantasy flight era stuff? Like you can just buy the new stuff now and it's readily available. And yeah, the, I think I'm gonna, I'm gonna get this wrong, but I think system gateway, which is the one that effectively you get sort of duelling decks, yes, kind of you buy it, and it's to pre make, it can just play. And then obviously, you can buy the filler to start building and doing more, but

JP  20:36  
That's exactly what I've done. So you get the starter decks, which is pretty much what me and Rob played, we didn't really get into the deck building side of it. But give it time. But ya know, it was just really good fun to play again, just getting back to the old old school games. And he had a little proud moment of basically trapping me and winning by just doing enough net damage from it, I got murdered. And I think that was his crowning glory moment. And actually, that was my favourite game because it got competitive at that point. But now I got the system gateway and system update, 2021 packs, which brings a lot of the older cards that I remember. 

Ian  21:17  
Reprints of like classic cards, you've still got your hedge funds, and yeah, you know, short Gamble's and stuff, but with new artwork and design and stuff

JP  21:26  
I'm really impressed with what they've done. Yeah,

Ian  21:29  
I know that there was a YouTube video that Shut up and sit down did recently, which turned a lot of people back onto it. And, you know, one of the only criticisms they had was around some of the earlier artwork from Nisei, which is a fair criticism, you know, the very start, everything was being fan sourced, there was no budget to pay for art, really. And so they had to make do with what they could get. And a lot of it was just generated internally, you know, there was... they're using deep dream and stuff like that to produce kind of cyberpunk type art. But what I would say is that the newest stuff, I mean, it's it's up to the level that Fantasy Flight was, I mean, in fact, literally, because there are at least half a dozen of the actual artists who are involved in producing art for the original Fantasy Flight game who have produced art for Nisei cards as well. So if anyone was worried about being put off by that, and thinking, oh, you know, if it looks and feels a bit naff, then maybe it won't enjoy it. Like, I don't know what you think JP. But I think the artwork that's on the new stuff is phenomenal.

JP  22:29  
I played it and didn't think, Oh, my God, this looks shonky. I kind of played and went 'Ohhhh, Netrunner!'.

Ian  22:37  
The other thing, right, the base game is just such a good game. You know, I mean, apart from people who love Magic, you'll probably be hard pressed to find people who can suggest a better card game. It really is up there.

Becky  22:52  
So I guess, with that mentioned, the main topic, I guess.

So we've called it Games that stand the test of time, which is not quite the same as 'what's your top five games or something?' It's, I think, what games do you come back to time after time? I guess it is quite a sort of nebulous description, but that's what I think it is. I guess before we go any further, I think we probably have to give honourable mentions to the likes of Scrabble, Cluedo, risk, even monopoly, as those games have been around since like the 1930s 40s, and 50s. But we're not here to talk about them, are we? So before we jump into a big list, what do we think makes games that call you back?

JP  23:40  
I've been thinking about this all day, actually. Because I know, I thought you might ask this kind of thing. So what what makes a game that you come back to is, well, obviously, it's got to be fun. I mean, if it wasn't fun, you're never going to come back to it. But for me, it's variety, and longevity. So it's being able to play the same game, have a completely different experience with it each time totally. And therefore, you know, every time we're going to play you're still exploring something new or something you're not seen before, some combination, or an engine that you've not built and, and been able to kind of push different buttons and employ different levers. For me that's what I enjoy, or that's what makes games that make me want to come back

Ian  24:26  
It's interesting that you say it's about the experience being different each time and like, there's certain games that create those moments that they... like we've all had those experiences. And it's the thing I think that keeps people coming back to board gaming as a hobby is like, it's those moments that you talk about time and time and time again, whether it's, you know, getting the rules wrong and something weird happening or you know, someone just having an incredible comeback from an unwinnable situation or anything in between, like, it's those moments that you kind of, they create memories and you're like, oh, I want to play that game again, because we have that awesome experience. And then we can have a different awesome experience this time.

Becky  25:02  
Yeah, I think like you were saying JP, like the asymmetry of it, how you can change a certain thing like pick a different faction or whatever the game mechanic is, that then means that you get just a totally different kind of game, still based on the same world or in the same thing. I think that that variation, I agree is what definitely keeps something fresh no matter how many times you play it.

Kerley  25:27  
Yeah, I think one of the interesting things is with that question, I don't disagree with anything you've said, completely agree. 

JP  25:33  
Good.

Kerley  25:35  
That's why I said it, normally you speak rubbish! But no, no, what I think it links into variation actually. But for me, what makes a good game stand the test of time is probably interaction, which sounds weird. But for me, that creates a lot of variety, because it totally depends on who you're playing with. And like someone's mood and all this kind of stuff. Like the more interaction the game has, the more I think it will stand the test of time. Whereas if you end up too much in your own little box, it can feel very samey unless the game leans into a huge amount of variety, like you were talking about. But certain games get away with it. But you know, for me interaction, like that's why BSG will always be one of my favourites, not because the game mechanics are amazing, although I love it. But it's to do with the interaction.

Ian  26:26  
Actually, that's interesting, because that, because I was thinking the same that there's lots of games that I can think of that, in my mind stand the test of time, but don't have huge amounts of variety in terms of the actual gameplay, but it's the interaction that adds variety. So even something like a dexterity game like crokinole, wait who had the sweepstake for how long it would take me to mention crokinole.

Kerley  26:49  
It's gone beyond what I thought

JP  26:50  
Suprised it was this long,

Ian  26:52  
But crokinole is a great example where the the gameplay and the patterns of play are very static, you know, especially as players become better, that it's quite standard the way a game of crokinole develops, however, the personal interaction that you have with your opponent and the conversations that happen around it, I think like you say clearly that that interaction is what makes that game stand the test of time, if you had to play I mean, I've tried playing crokinole on my own, like with a lazy Susan and like trying to practice it doesn't it doesn't hold the same appeal. I can't sit there for three hours and play crokinole on my own. I mean, I'm not saying that I  haven't. It's not as an enjoyable experience as if you've got an opponent across the table or a group of people that can all get involved with. That's why doubles works so well. It's just the ultimate social game.

Becky  27:37  
Yeah. And I think going into that it's, it's to do with why we play games, isn't it? I guess for some people, they only play because they want to, you know, get maximum points, solve the puzzle, the quickest, do whatever. And I guess they're playing an internal game, they're doing their thing. So maybe for them, all those things aren't relevant. But I think probably all of us, we actually enjoy spending time with each other. We enjoy kind of having the banter across the table, we actually want the interaction. And that's why we play the games, not just because, of course, there's a bit of it's quite nice to beat your last score, or it's nice to not come last again, although I wouldn't know about that.

Sometimes I do come along, and then you get to come second to last 

But it is, the whole point for me is the fun aspect. Like you mentioned earlier JP. And if it doesn't have that, it's never going to last any you know,

Ian  28:30  
And I think as well, that whole kind of like recreational versus competitive, because that's kind of how I'm interpreting what you're saying is that kind of when you move into that more competitive space, and clearly you'll know with things like magic, you know, playing those games, competitively, a real competitive level is just a totally different game than with your friends. And different people are going to get different things out of it. But I do think one can lead to the other. And again, Netrunner I think is a good example where the way it grips you at the start with just the the quality of the mechanics and the theme and how it all hangs together the stories that does carry through into competitive quite quite well. And you still have all that fun, even when you're playing at high level, although it's still a balance, obviously. And yeah, there are people who wouldn't want to play competitively because it's playing the best decks trying to win, you know, kind of at the expense of all else. But yeah, it can be a mix, I think is what I'm trying to say you can you can sort of get both sometimes. 

JP  29:25  
It just facilitators aren't they, I think games generally are facilitators, some do a hell of a lot better than others. But yeah, I kind of get what you said Ian, with the moments. And I instantly just think of the Civ game that we played. Because it had those moments. We have the nuclear explosion of Davey. We had me fending him off a critical point in the game and it just creates those moments. That's what makes it memorable.

Ian  29:50  
Like T.I is a great example of that as well, isn't it? Because of how much everyone invests into a game with Twilight Imperium. There's always stories like, it's like you've lived You know, a decade of Space War by the time you come out the other end of it.

Becky  30:04  
I mean, one of the things that springs to mind for me is, the rules need to be quite straightforward. So you're not having to keep oh, wait a minute, let's check the rulebook. Oh, wait a minute, does that do this? I'm not sure. So I'm not saying it has to be an easy game. But it has to make sense. It has to have...You have

Ian  30:19  
You have to be able to internalise the rules correctly. Yeah, they can... they can still be complex. But you have to feel like once you've had that first or second play, that everyone gets it. Yeah. And it's not, you know, having to constantly remind me how that was, although, I don't know, maybe Twilight Imperium is an example where that does still have to happen. But that might just be me. Because I always forget the rules.

Kerley  30:38  
I'm going to put a counterpoint to this one and say that I don't think that's quite right. But oh, not in the way that you think, purely and simply because of the fact that if you look at the rules for Terraforming Mars, they're mental. Now there's loads of them, absolutely loads, but what you've played it so much,

Becky  30:55  
I don't think I've ever even picked the rulebook up. I guess I don't need to, because I'm playing with very experienced players, however,

Kerley  31:01  
But you get the point, because you've played it so much. And you love it so much, that it's so stuck, and everything else, you know. So I think there is an element to what you're saying for sure. But I think if you like your game enough, complication doesn't always matter. How often you get to play as well, you know?

JP  31:18  
Yeah, that's the key thing

Ian  31:20  
You can certainly overcome that. Yeah, that by just replaying, but also, I suppose it's whether those rules are intuitive. I mean, from my memories of playing Terraforming Mars, yeah, I've also never really delved into the rulebook. I've just played with you folks. And people have told me what I need to do. It's always felt quite intuitive. Like, the way it works is the way you kind of expect it to work. So maybe it's not necessarily about complexity, per se. Sure, how easy it is to take on board.

Becky  31:48  
I think, for me, quick turns is really important. Yeah, not necessarily that it doesn't take long to do my thing, but that there's minimal downtime, because I just lose interest, quite frankly. And that's not to say, I've got a short attention span, I don't think, but if something, you know, that someone else is doing takes 20 minutes, and I haven't done anything at all. It doesn't matter how good the game is, you then start getting people looking on their phones or doing something else. And that just kind of pulls you out of the game, doesn't it? So either people need to be all doing things at the same time, or things need to be fairly rapid. And and it needs to come back to you or at least you need to be having to think about something

Ian  32:32  
It comes back to interaction that Kerley was saying. So even if yeah, each person's turn, quote, unquote, takes 10 or 15 minutes, if during that turn, they're having to, you know, trade resources with other players or negotiate something. Everyone's engaged. We've all had those games. Yeah, where like you say, someone's in a complicated spot, or they've got a bit of AP or whatever. And I'm guilty of it as much as anyone. I can slow a game down like no one's business. But that's yeah, that's when you find a game that kind of doesn't lean towards that, that keeps... sort of steers you away from that happening that I think that has a better chance of standing the test of time

Kerley  33:10  
It's the downfall of some very good games. Yeah, you either have to have quick turns, or you have to have well, you said an investment in other people's turns, like Twilight Imperium. Great. Because I know that some of you haven't played that, I think Becky you've never played it. But yeah, you get to... when someone else plays something, you can spend money, a little tokens to do the smaller version of that, and you're waiting for them to do that. So you have an investment in other peoples turns

Becky  33:38  
You're invested to keep your attention, on the game

JP  33:41  
You need to... like, if someone's doing something and moving into a space, then you're going, why are you doing that? What's your next... So you're constantly just evaluating the board state,

Ian  33:51  
Because you can't just figure out I mean, it's, there's gonna be some cases in T.I. where like, there is only one thing you want to do that turn. So it really doesn't matter what the play is, before you do, but most of the time, it is going to matter. Like they're going to change the state of the game. So it's almost like, it's like imagine chess, but instead of just having to wait for your opponents play their turn, you have to wait for six opponents to play a turn before you can play it. And it's just impossible to you know, fathom all of the different permutations. 

JP  34:17  
I think consistency of the group as well is a factor into the games that stand the test of time. What I mean by that kind of going  to your rules kind of point, is you can have a great game, but if you can't keep a consistent group to come play that, that might tarnish it becoming a game that stands the test of time you know, even though in its own right, it probably would be obviously it's gonna differ from group to group right? Because everyone loves different things and that's cool. But you know, I take Terraforming Mars as the example where there's how many people in the group know that game like really well? Quite a lot right, and probably most of us have played it, so you quite easily put that game up and loads of people jump on and you don't have to worry about anything. Just get on with it. Yeah. Yeah, get on with the job.

Ian  35:08  
That's probably in balanced with what we were talking about around being easy to internalise the rules. Yeah, because if your group of players is inconsistent, then you really do need a game where it's easy to internalise the ropes, because if there's a new player joining every time, you don't want to do a whole teach every time when three quarters of the table have played it in one time. So yeah, Terraforming Mars is probably a really good example of that, where you could you could bring in a new player every game, and it wouldn't feel like a burden to experience players,

JP  35:36  
And it has a way of doing it for new players, because you get your beginner corp. And you get, like the little leg up. And we were all playing, like not hard mode, but normal, they're still competative

Becky  35:46  
So yeah, I think that that pulls into my last point, which is it needs to be easy to fall back into if you haven't played it in a long time. You know, if there's only say, five of you, and you play every Friday, that's fine, because you know that you're going to play the same few games. When you've got a group as large and as sort of diverse in our favourite games or the kind of stuff we like as ours, then it just become a bit more of a point. So if you haven't played for a long time, can you still remember the rules? And that is partly because we, and I think I definitely speak for myself. And I think JP, I think you're... I don't say guilty, I think, allured by this, is the the Cult of the New. So yeah, we play our old types lots, but we do get pulled Oh, oh, what's this new thing that I've seen

Ian  36:34  
JP doesn't let the new replace the old, he just does both

JP  36:38  
Find time for both. Yeah, that's the answer.

Kerley  36:41  
So yeah, definitely the other way round. I like my old, kind of the old armchair and the old slippers, you know. Something new?!? I'm automatically suspicious.

JP  36:51  
You're like, Kerley, I've got something new, and he's like.....'Gahhhh'

Kerley  36:53  
But then play this new thing. I love it. And I'm like, oh this new thing is great. I know it always is.

Becky  36:59  
So what else are our actual personal games that we think stand the test of time? A few of them have come up, I think already. So for me, I'm just gonna throw Terraforming Mars out there. And I am absolutely determined to get better at this game. So I've downloaded it on Steam. I'm trying to get better at my game start which I know is where my a lot of my problems kind of come from, like not just the corp. I pick, and you know, the card selection I have. So I'm, I'm going to get better at this. It's gonna happen. And yeah, for all the reasons we've mentioned before: the variety. Everything I like about games, Terraforming Mars has for me.

Kerley  37:34  
For anyone who says that's too recent a game, by the way, it is six years old, for starters. So it's not as new as people might think. But also, JP made a good point earlier on, before we even started and said, We're going to be playing that in 10 years time. Yeah. 100%. And I totally agree,

Ian  37:52  
As well as stuff that has stood the test of time, if we're looking at things that we think will stand the test of time. Yeah. And I think that's valid, right? It's, and also six years is a long time in board game That's, that's not a new game

Becky  38:05  
It's not 'Uno', it's not Yhatzee. But then you can't compare it to those things like that, because it's just on another level of... another level of awesome. I like Uno, and I laike Yhatzee but it's, that's a quick 10 minute kind of thing. Isn't it? Terraforming Mars is a different beast

JP  38:20  
I think for us, we've got what I call pre GG and post GG, right. So that's 2017. So it's before the Gaming Group was established. And after the Gaming Group was established. So anything before, like, oh, it's like the past. And yeah, all this back catalogue of games and cool stuff that we've not even tapped into yet. 

Ian  38:40  
That's really true. Because yeah, so many of the games that we have played and do play is because people in the group have bought them, because they're new. And yeah, well, this is the new thing. Cult of the New like you were saying, Becky, and yeah, that's very different to all these games that were around before we started playing in an organised group. They're new to us. But you know, like Terraforming Mars was new to us when we first played it, but it wasn't New, it was a couple years old, at least

Becky  39:07  
Obviously Crokinole, Ian, being the founder of crokinole UK. I mean,

JP  39:11  
That's why I laughed when I read your notes

Becky  39:13  
Been here since what? Well, I read 1860 But you said earlier...

Ian  39:17  
No I think I think we Googled and confirmed it was yeah sometime in the 1800s Anyway up in Canada, so definitely an old game, not up there with like chess, or backgammon or something

JP  39:27  
Mancala

Ian  39:29  
But for but certain has survived for hundreds of years. But to be fair until probably, what, three/ four years ago whenever Shut up and Sit Down did their Crokinole video largely unknown outside of not just outside of Canada, but outside of Ontario probably. You know, you talk to a random person in Toronto, don't know what Crokinole is. But beyond that, no one had heard of it, and it's had a real resurgence. And so whether that counts as standing the test of time or more, being a sort of sleeper game that just kind of hibernated for a few 100 years with some diehard fans. But yeah, it's gathering momentum now and you know, people are running events all over, obviously we had the UK championships at the Games Expo and a guy called Terry Brown has just run the Grand Prix of Crokinole up in Scotland which went really well. So yeah, there's more of an appetite for organised Crokinole which is fine by me.

JP  40:24  
'Oh no, I'm going to have to play more Crokinole!'

Ian  40:26  
What a shame? I'll have to travel to crokinole every weekend Oh, damn!

Becky  40:33  
Anyone else got any game they want to throw out there to be included?

Kerley  40:36  
I've go a few, I mean if we're talking old games that was , what did you call it pre GG? Lord of the Rings Risk was my absolute favourite back in the day.

Ian  40:49  
I remember when you were moving out of one of your houses, we found like several copies of Lord of the Rings Risk under your stairs.

Kerley  40:55  
Still got them mate!

Ian  40:56  
It was like, Oh, you've got Lord of the Rings risk, and then I picked it up. It's like you've got another Lord of the Rings risk underneath.

Kerley  41:03  
It was intentionally bought as well just in case some of the pieces broke and it went out of publication or something

Becky  41:09  
Yeah, that's dedication that is, having a backup copy of your favourite game.

Kerley  41:12  
I mean, to be fair, I haven't played it in years, but at the time, I was obsessed with it. You know, it was just mixing what I consider to be an alpha game with one of my favourite franchises. Yeah, it's just like it's a win win for me. And you know, I know it's mechanically maybe a little bit basic and... but I just I just absolutely love it. Just absolutely love it, it fits exactly into my meta if you like. So yeah, love Lord of the Rings risk. More modern game. I'm gonna give a shout out to Game of Thrones actually,

JP  41:44  
That's on my list. 

Kerley  41:45  
Oh, sorry, mate. 

JP  41:45  
That's fine. We can have the same game. Yeah,

Kerley  41:48  
so I absolutely love Game of Thrones. It would be one that I would buy if JP didn't already own it. Yeah, I just think yeah, there's some, there's some mechanical issues with it. But for me, it just makes a

JP  41:59  
Stabby issues. Yeah. 

Kerley  42:01  
So to me, it just, I don't know, there's something about it that that the whole hidden movement factor factor of it. The whole backstabbingness, the interaction that it creates moments doesn't it does. Yeah. There's something about it that I just love. And it's been around for quite a long time. Now. I think it was when the Game of Thrones was first on TV, right

JP  42:24  
Second edition was 2011.

Kerley  42:26  
Yeah, so I mean, certainly well, before we were mega into the hobby.

Ian  42:33  
In terms of other pre GG/ post GG. That was, as we've talked about, before, the game that launched the group

Kerley  42:39  
Well I was about to say, it's a it's a shout out because it was when you invited me along for the first time.

Ian  42:45  
Yes, yeah, that was it was

JP  42:46  
yeah, and we still play it. Not often, but it comes up in the rotation

Ian  42:52  
And it's never unwelcome is it, every time it comes up? It's yeah, it fills up. Everyone wants to play it because it was just a great game

JP  42:58  
Can we just not play on a weeknight, because we want to go to sleep.

Becky  43:05  
I was talking to a patient at work. And I said, Oh, what would you normally be doing if you weren't here with us? Oh, well, I'd be preparing for our game night. Oh, right. What kind of stuff do you play? thinking, well, I don't know cards or yeah, she played Game of Thrones. So we had a good little little chit chat there which was great.

JP  43:21  
Did you invite her to the group?

Becky  43:22  
No I didn't no, thought that might be crossing the work sort of social life-balance or whatever, soliciting her for our game group is probably not going to go down well.

JP  43:34  
Can I have my operation first?

Twilight Imperium is there for me, we'll always play that even and probably the latest edition because as soon as fifth edition comes out at some point in the next 10 years. No doubt we'll get that. We'll always play it and it's yeah, it fits in the same bracket as Game of Thrones to me. It's that epic event type game creating lots of moments and tiredness afterwards. Generally like Yeah, we talked about TM not Terraforming Mars. But for me. Personally. I really love Lorenzo il Magnifico as a game, and because I can play that with my family, I can play that with my friends and it just gives me something, so for me that's the game I'll always come back to as well. And then the obvious Too Many Bones. There're many reason why I mentioned that, it's because it's made out of neoprene and it will stand the test of time.

Kerley  44:34  
Or you're just trying to get Too Many Bones in every episode

JP  44:39  
Right and the worms would have eaten me and my game will still be as pristine and

Ian  44:46  
Presumably your ancestors will be playing it right? Passed down as a family heirloom. Trove Chest

JP  44:53  
Probably would have rotted because that is like MDF wood. But there's stuff inside

Ian  44:58  
I'm sure you're gonna get a metal one. Soon enough, right? Something customed off Etsy,

JP  45:03  
Something lead lined, just in case you have atomic war. But no, I have to mention it. But yeah, there's loads,

Becky  45:13  
I think another one for me Lords Of Waterdeep. I know it's really what some people might consider quite basic. But it's, it's quick to play. It's, it's fun. It's easy to understand.

Ian  45:29  
I don't think it is. I mean, you're right it's obviously at the less crunchy end of the scale. But I mean, especially when you add the what's the expansion called, that adds all the extra stuff. 

Kerley  45:40  
Scoundrels of Skullport

It's got enough going on I think, that what I mean, what do you think,because you're, you're more of a crunchy gamer than me. I mean, you still like Waterdeep

I mean, I love Waterdeep. I mean, I know some people in the group don't think it may be has enough variety. 

JP  46:00  
Hello!

Kerley  46:00  
And yeah, I mean, I know JP doesn't hate it. I think it's not, definitely not one that he would volunteer to play, I don't think. But yeah, I really enjoy it. I think there's definitely a place for it plays a lot quicker, plays quite fast. You can teach it to newbies. For me, it's a great gateway game to our group. I know there are better, potentially gateway games. But if you're trying to get into our group, not trying to get in like it's some secret club

JP  46:27  
Have you got your golden ticket?

Kerley  46:29  
But you know, I mean, if you're just starting out in games, and we want to see if maybe you'd be interested in playing all types of games, and that would be a great one to see if like Oh, does that one click for you?

Ian  46:37  
That's a really good point that yeah, the games that lasts, it's going to depend on what you and your group play. Like there must be other groups out there who are you know, hardcore into dungeon crawlers? Yeah. And for them Waterdeep wouldn't be a game that stands the test of time, because it's not representative of what they play. But yeah, you're right. Waterdeep has a lot of elements that you'll then find elsewhere in other games that we all like.

Kerley  47:02  
But there's enough variety there for me like it's got a little bit of engine building, little bit of worker placement. You've got the whole corruption mechanic, which makes it for me. So there's, there's a lot in there for me, and I will say certainly last a test of time for me. And I know Becky loves it, you love it. Rob loves it. At the end of the day, it's just a little bit of a lighter game. So anyone who's towards the lighter end of the worker placement is gonna love Lords of Waterdeep and we'll probably play it for the foreseeable future. Yeah,

JP  47:30  
100%. I would never not play it. Like I'm not to the point where Oh, no, no, you wouldn't suggest it. You push for it. I have the luxury where I can be choosy. Now. Be honest, right? If we were playing four games a month. And then that was one of the games, then I'd play it. But we played like 40,

Becky  47:48  
If tic-tac-toe was one of the games you'd still join in! Wingspan is a similar one, sort of in the level of Lords of Waterdeep. It's, you know, it's not worker placement. But it's fairly easy

JP  48:03  
Egg placement. 

Becky  48:05  
And a commonality between Lords of Waterdeep and wingspan, you can get the really, really nice little meeples that that we've got. So you know... 

Ian  48:14  
Those eggs do look delicious, how you haven't eaten them all is beyond me.

Becky  48:20  
I've just got a quick shout out to something I think, will definitely be played in 10 years. It's very, very new. But I think Just One should be up there. 

Ian  48:28  
It's a great party game isn't it?

Becky  48:29  
A great party game.

JP  48:30  
You can play with your Nan, can't you?

Becky  48:32  
Yeah, you could play with absolutely any level of person as long as they could, if not hold a pen. Someone could hold the pen for them, you know, anybody can play that, doesn't matter if you can spell.

Ian  48:44  
For anyone who doesn't know it's a game with a rotating basis of who's trying to guess a certain word. And all the other players are trying to give clues to that word. But there's rules around what you can and can't do. But it's that kind of hidden answer mechanic isn't just clever. It's simple.

Becky  49:02  
Yeah. And it's easy. You could play it for five minutes. You could play it for five hours, fine. Maybe you wouldn't want to do that. But you know, as long as you've got a pen that works and a little whiteboard,

Kerley  49:12  
My only question around Just One being in the 'stands the test of time', do you think the party, game meta moves more swiftly than most others? Because I probably do. And I'm not saying that one might be the standout, or one that stands around like I don't know Charades or something that they're still around in 30 years, but I do wonder whether the party game meta's a bit quicker. 

JP  49:31  
It's a good point. 

Kerley  49:32  
There's always a new thing. Yeah,

Becky  49:34  
I think it's very kind of Zeitgeisty, what's fun at the minute, but I think that one, just, let's all guess a word. I mean, it harks back to games, like you just said, of Charades doesn't it? It's similar

Ian  49:45  
And it's basically a small evolution of what I've known as the Rizla game, you know, where you have a person's name and you you stick it on a cigarette paper on your forehead, and then you have to talk to people and try and figure out who you are. So very similar questions. Yeah, it's It's a very classic mechanic, isn't it? So just feel I agree with Becky that it does feel like it'll last but you're not wrong clearly the example that party games there's always something new coming on

JP  50:11  
The example that's popped in my head, as you said that Kerley was Avalon. Yeah. And Avalon we played the crap out of, played the crap out of it to the point where I thought we'd never gonna not play this. And then we stopped playing it. And we still play but not...

Ian  50:26  
Comes out from time to time. But does it feel like it stood the test of time? No, we probably did burn out on it.

JP  50:31  
I, we played it at your birthday. It was fun. But it wasn't like it was, it might have been the group because there's a lot of new players there. But yeah, that's me.

Ian  50:41  
That's a game that's highly driven by the personalities and people playing it right. So you get a very different game, depending on what mood people are in. And who's there. And

JP  50:50  
I'm less excited to play it.

Ian  50:51  
Yeah. Yeah,

Becky  50:53  
we got anything else that we're desperate to talk about games that stand the test of time, or do we feel like we've given it?

Ian  50:59  
That's most of the things? I mean, we briefly touched on Netrunner earlier. I don't think there's huge amounts more to say. But I do think when it comes to card games, that's one that... but you've only got to see the fact that even when the publishers stopped producing it, it still continues. The community wanted. 

JP  51:14  
I thought it was dead. And then the fact that I re-bought it, well that shows you, doesn't it? Yeah, actually I don't want it to die. It's literally the, you know, the fans have kept that alive.

Ian  51:25  
And it isn't even just on the strength of the community of people who play it. It's the strength of the game, you know, yeah the Shut up and Sit Down video is a big boost. But there are plenty of people who knew Fantasy Flight Netrunner, Android Netrunner, who are now being reminded that that's a game that still exists, and they're like, oh, yeah, that was really good. I should play that again. So it's kind of, it's stood the test of time, kind of for individuals as well. You kind of ignored it for five years or something. 

JP  51:53  
That's what I've kind of put me off was the fact that it was going to, well, it was dead. And then, but it's still here. And it's like, oh, maybe I shouldn't have jumped out

Becky  52:03  
You've got the resurrection. And now you're there with it again. 

JP  52:06  
We're back in this thing.

Becky  52:10  
That about rounds it up I think.

So now it's time for questions. And seeing as we have Kerley and JP with us today, the question I've pulled out of the list is about crowdfunding. Specifically aimed at you guys. So our own member Rhiannon asks, Do you routinely support crowdfunded projects? If not, why? And what do you consider when pledging for a crowdfunded project? 

JP  52:46  
We did a whole episode on this one.

Kerley  52:48  
Yeah.

Becky  52:48  
So you guys are loving it.

Kerley  52:50  
We've done a little bit on it. I gotta be honest. I've pretty much stopped

JP  52:55  
I've waned off a bit

Kerley  52:56  
Yeah, I'm now at the point where I will only do a crowdfunding project for something that I already know in advance is going to be awesome. So for an example, and this isn't a good example, because it's JP's baby, is what if Mindclash brought out a new game? If he wasn't, I'd be all over it. 

JP  53:13  
He knows I'm gonna get it!

Kerley  53:14  
There are exceptions to that, like, you know, Heroes of Might and Magic, the new one I've spoken about before, that's coming out in November. I'll definitely be pledging that but only because I've been obsessed with that computer game for God knows how long

Becky  53:26  
And you did play it at the Expo.

Kerley  53:28  
I did play it at the Expo, definitely got potential, got some really good stuff. The designer was there, talking to him. He's really passionate about it. So yeah, it's just, I'm sold. So I'm going to be getting that. But for the most part, I don't do it on a whim anymore. Is kind of the point. Yeah, it's just for me, and I think this is kind of the popular opinion... for me it has, the price point has gotten so high, not only...but it's just like the base game, all the expansions... But if you add all of that in, you go I can just about justify it. And now you've still got to think about VAT,  P&P the, you know, the global shipping prices, paying your energy bills, it's now getting to the point where it's almost unviable. So, yeah, I think we might even see a change in the actual way that they go about them.

Becky  54:18  
I was gonna say, do you think like things like Kickstarter, and those kinds of things have kind of had their chips? Do you think they've seen the best times?

Kerley  54:26  
I think when you take into account the fact that in the UK, I think it's gonna go downhil. I think it's worse in the UK than in other places. Like if you're in the EU or the US, does it really matter about the global shipping crisis quite so much? Well not quite so much because you have... what's it? a European distribution hub, you know, so it makes it... but they'd have to have a UK specific distribution hub to do it. You know, it's...

Ian  54:51  
Do you think, over the pandemic, there was a big boost for the likes of Kickstarter because people weren't going out. Basically, they were bored. 

JP  55:01  
Was for me

Ian  55:02  
They weren't spending money on going out or going on holiday or whatever. So people had a bit more disposable income. And now we're in a very opposite situation, obviously, everything's getting more expensive, both Kickstarters and just cost of living as well. And it feels like yeah, maybe that was a wave that the sites were never going to be able to fully ride out anyway, it was always going to be a bubble eventually. Yeah, maybe that's what's happening now.

JP  55:24  
I agree. I think what you said, it pretty much the hits the nail on the head for me, like if it's Chip Theory Games, if it's Mindclash games, I will check it out. No worries. And I'm now having to tell myself, I don't need to own every fricking title of these publishers. I don't need to do it. But...

Becky  55:45  
Yes you do!

Ian  55:46  
You still sound like you're trying to convince yourself

JP  55:48  
A little bit, a little bit. But I know like Chip Theory is a good example, actually, like, I know that if I don't get it then, that's the cheapest it will ever be. I know that for a fact, that's the way they do it. They don't do this, 'Oh we'll do it for this price. And then we'll do it for retail' and you go hang on a minute. I could have got that for the same. 

Ian  56:07  
Because they want to incentivize people to get in. 

JP  56:09  
I know it will be. That's, that's why they do it. And they're very open and transparent about it. And I quite like that. It's like if you want it now, it's going to be the cheapest you'll ever get it. Well, you don't have to get it now, you can get it later, but you will pay, and I know you JP, that you're gonna want this at some point, you might as well pay less now. Pay more later. So there are certain publishers like those two for me that I will always check out. But what I found interesting, and I know you're gonna probably touch on this Becky later, is that Mindclash havereleased a new line of games that they are not going to crowdfund, and they're going straight to preorder/webstore. And I find that brilliant, because I hope actually that now they do that, and avoid the whole crowdfunding thing. Like Stonemaier do

Becky  56:53  
I think that Mindclash have obviously heard of me. And they know like, well, if we, if we make it a bit easier, and we just put some really, you know, lovely wishy washy artwork on it. Becky'll buy it!

Ian  57:06  
They'll get Adrian to recommend it to you. Yeah. And then it's a done deal.

Becky  57:09  
They probably sent him an email. Yeah, I mean, yeah, I'll come on to it in a bit. But yeah, I think I think the crowdfunding thing for people like me, I'm just way too impatient for Kickstarters. There is no way I could sit there and wait that long and, and I love like an extra little bonus content, special cards, you know, swanky pieces that no one else can like, that's like, that's right up my street. But I know I am not good enough with waiting because I drive myself mad checking it every day, every whatever, waiting for these updates, and just getting... and I almost get myself over the point of not wanting to play because I've built it up so much. And it's never going to, you know, meet my expectations.

Kerley  57:48  
But that's where Kickstarter has changed, I guess from what it was originally intended, was fact of: if you didn't back it, Becky, it would never come out. Whereas now it would have come out anyway, it's whether they get the funding beforehand, and they get people to buy into the add ons. And it's become a totally different beast. And now there are still some that wouldn't get made. But I think it's becoming less and less like that. And that for me isn't good.

Ian  58:12  
I think that's a pattern across all crowdfunding, not even just board gaming crowdfunding. It used to be that you would back things speculatively, it's a case of right, I want this thing to exist. So I'll put some money up now, with no guarantee that I will ever actually get the product in the hope that if I do get the product, I'll a have got it for a lot less than retail. Yeah, and B, got it before everyone else. And that just isn't the case anymore. Like so you've got things like, you know, Frosthaven that it's like, well, yeah, I think it's gonna hit it backing target! I think that that game probably will happen, kind of thing, it's just, it's a different beast. I mean, they did what, like 12 million quid on the first day or something.

Kerley  58:52  
It wasn't quite that much. But yeah, it was record breaking.

Ian  58:55  
Yes, for sure. So yeah, I guess just crowdfunding in general has changed. And again, maybe that's slightly pandemic related, again, because of the, you know, people's different financial position, then compared to now, people maybe were more willing to take a punt on something. But yeah, from what I see on Kickstarter, when I occasionally have a look, it's mostly looks like publishers who could absolutely just take the game to retail themselves. It's not a case of 'we need the funding to make the game happen'. It's a case of 'we think we can get more people to go for the game this way by incentivizing them with you know, extra stuff, and build hype and then still get the retail sales anyway'. So it's just a different business model. Now, I think

JP  59:37  
It is, but I personally think that if we can get back to how it was then, and not use it as this glorified, PR marketing pre ordering system.

Ian  59:51  
It'd be nice to see 20 or or very new publishers and developers. Someone taking a chance. You know, absolutely. Then instead of it being like, oh, yeah, I'll put up £300 quid for a pledge on this next massive game with billions of miniatures and be like, No, there's this interesting game idea that I've never seen anything like this, I'd love to see that get made. And if I don't back it for 50 quid, it might not get made

JP  1:00:18  
One of the most perfect examples is Eurydices games with FlickFleet. And these chaps who are basically manufacturing and not only publishing but building manufacturing the whole game out of a garage. And storing it in houses. 

Ian  1:00:34  
Their whole production pipeline is just fascinating to me. And yeah, if you haven't checked it out already, the previous episode where me and David chatted to them, and also the YouTube videos on their website, just amazing. They walk you through the whole process start to finish of like designing, producing, distributing, like all the manufacture, it's, it's wild, like, and that's what you want to see, you want to see people like that who are taking a chance, you know, get rewarded for it. Something no one else has done.

JP  1:01:04  
And they're using the platform because they need to know which acrylic to buy. Yeah, so that they can crank out the copies...like, because without it, it wouldn't have happened

Ian  1:01:13  
They havent got  massive cash reserves, or assets that as a business they can use to bankroll that, if they build, print, make 1000 copies, and they only sell 200 of them, they're gonna have lost a lot of money. They're not going to be able to survive that way. So yeah, it's it's great for publishers like that, I think. And I agree, I'd like to see more of that. And less, you know, eight figure backing, preorder system. 

Kerley  1:01:38  
But then funnily enough, you know, to put a counter argument to that, I think me and you who are the biggest crowd funders here probably have both said, we're probably going to dial it down and only go and stuff that we know, which let's face it Mindclash could publish our own games, you know, who's the other one that you like? Chip Theory games could publish our own games. And they choose not to, they choose to go on Kickstarter for that reason. And you've said, basically, you're gonna buy everything they have. And this is exactly the same for me. So I don't think I'm particularly inclined to go for those Eurydice games. 

Ian  1:02:11  
And that's probably why it's developed that way. 

Kerley  1:02:13  
Exactly. And I think the whole platform has kind of gone a different way with it. And I just kind of, I don't know, maybe if the other the bigger publishers weren't doing that anymore, and it was just smaller ones, I might be more inclined to give something a go. I don't know. 

JP  1:02:27  
Stonemaier, right. There's a big, big name, big publisher. They used to use it. Now they don't, they stopped. And the way that they generate hype or interest in the game, I just prefer it because they tease it, they can say it's coming. And then you know, you're not going to wait two years. It's literally coming in two months. Yeah. So you know, you're that kind of hype and you get the game and say 'It's here, great!'. And you're playing it and you're talking about it. But obviously, for them to do that they're gonna have to make an educated guess on how many prints or copies to print. And do they do 50,000, do they do 150,000. And they're in a position now that they can make that risk, and make that bet, and have more suppose statistical data to work out whether they would sell it

Kerley  1:03:15  
I suppose the thing is for Stonemaier, they're kind of, I wouldn't say an exception, but they've got relatively few games that are almost all incredibly popular. So everything they buy, it isn't a massive risk to them, basically. Because I imagine a lot of the reason even the bigger publishers do go to Kickstarter, and I understand it, is risk management.

Ian  1:03:36  
Yeah, what if you put a dud out there? I mean, the board gaming space is very saturated. So there are a lot of misses. And even big publishers have misses don't they? And yeah, do you want that miss to cost you £100,000? Or do you want it to cost you 2 million? And that's the perhaps the difference between going crowdfunding or going retail? Yeah.

Kerley  1:03:58  
Interesting question. I would say. 

JP  1:03:59  
Yeah it is. Yeah, it's not an easy one to answer, we're all hooked, well me and Kerley are

Becky  1:04:11  
Almost at the end with our penultimate turn, what have we all got in the pipeline? What are we looking forward to gaming or non gaming? JP I'm throwing it to you. 

JP  1:04:19  
Oh, I just recently purchased Inis which is spelt Inis. Which is a 'dudes on a map' game, basically. And it's about six years old. Celtic theme, very kind of Irish artwork looking cards. 

Becky  1:04:37  
Nordic kind of Viking-y

JP  1:04:39  
lt's very pretty. If you like that kind of thing. What kind of attracted me to it, and I've heard about this game for years, and heard people talk about this game. And it comes from Matagot, I think who did Cyclades and Kemet. Which are also similar style games, but it's always one that's been kind of highly rated. And I don't know, I just kind of fancied it. And what attracted me to kind of getting it was the fact that it is on the medium-y, woundn't say light, but it's on the medium end. It's not something that's hugely complicated, it plays relatively quickly. And the action cards that you have, like 17 in the game, and you draft them, between you. So it's kind of like, the action cards allow you to move your dudes, which are like your clans that you have on the board, allow you to explore more tiles, allows you to kind of have clashes with people and all sorts of different things. And the fact that you have to draft them with the other players, to determine what you can do, is interesting, because it's like, I really need to go there. And I need to get that thing. And also the way the drafting mechanics work, which is not kind of the same as like your Terraforming Mars, or the drafting games, it's like, where you've got your four cards, you pick one, pass the next load to the next player. And then you put that one that you've picked back in the hand of the three that you just received, and then you pick two of them. So you don't have to keep the one that you picked. You're curating, crafting your hand based on the flow of cards 

Kerley  1:06:07  
And might change partway through sort of thing? 

JP  1:06:09  
Yeah, you know, and then obviously, is gonna be a bit of hate-drafting. I know I don't want to give Kerley that attack card, because I know exactly what is going to do with it. Do I keep that and yeah, all that kind of stuff. And it sounds, it sounds like I don't know, it's quite an interesting way of doing it, and then obviously, you got these little lands and you get extra cards for having majority in that land as well. And you've got, theres other things that you can do, but I just thought it looked quite interesting. Keen to give that try, so I just thought I'd pick it up, and got that in a couple of weeks. Yeah. How about you?

Kerley  1:06:41  
I'm gonna cheat a little bit, I'm gonna give an honourable mention but I'll probably discuss it near the time, to Northgard has finally arrived and is in the, I don't know what you want to call it, 'the Grinder'. It's ready to go in the Grinder. We've got that in the Loaded Dice event queue. I forget when it is. But it's about three weeks away. So I'm looking forward to that one. My latest Kickstarter, that I don't back anymore. But the one I'm actually going to mention is someone else's game, shock horror. JP's. He owns all my favourite games. Carnegie, we've got.

JP  1:07:17  
Tomorrow 

Kerley  1:07:18  
Yes. Is it tomorrow? 

JP  1:07:19  
Tomorrow 

Kerley  1:07:21  
Okay, it's tomorrow. Fair enough. So I'm gonna be here tomorrow, and I'm really looking forward to that, 

JP  1:07:26  
Four player as well. 

Kerley  1:07:28  
Yeah, so Yeah, Me snd JP... it was a total surprise to me. Similar to Anno for you, I suppose. And Barenpark earlier on we were talking about it. I almost didn't come in the end because I think someone cancelled last minute and it was like it... we almost went out the window. But you know what? The mechanics look reasonably fun. The theming looked a little bit. I don't know what you call it bland? I surprised me. Yeah. And then I turned up and if I love this game, there's so much to it. So many good decisions. And yeah, it just really. Yeah. Really spoke to my efficiency kind of you know, and we played two games, didn't we? Yeah, both really good. Fun. Yeah. So I'm looking forward to that. We play two player two games in a row. We're gonna play a four player. So yeah, I think that's gonna be a real interesting one. But yeah, we'll talk about that one maybe ina little bit more depth after we've played it.

JP  1:08:18  
Yeah. 100% Yeah, I think the cool thing about it is it's like 20 turns in the game. And it you get to pick any of the core of them. Yeah, so five of them, in terms of what you're doing, and you're the players are going 'well, Im gonna do this' and you got 'B@$t@rd'. Because they know that you've not set yourself up for a construction action or HR action or whatever. Again, sounds very businesslike. So the theme is not going to be everyone's cup of tea, but mechanically is fun. It's fast. Dunno, it's just satisfying having your little meeples moving around in the departments and doing stuff, it's great. Love it.

Kerley  1:08:55  
So looking forward to that.

Ian  1:08:58  
For me, I need to get my name on some lists. I know I need to actually play some games, or I'm going to lose my podcast spot if I don't play some more games, but no, like we were saying earlier I think getting a Netrunner night in, certainly the three of us are interested, I think Rob would probably join us to make it four maybe, so we'll definitely get that in the diary. And beyond that I just want to play Ark Nova so I need to, I need to look for when that next is going to hit the table because...

Becky  1:09:25  
Well, put it on there on the requested list 

JP  1:09:27  
Yeah that's it. I've had a little 'I should play that again' soon

Ian  1:09:31  
I still haven't played it so, I've only heard good things

Becky  1:09:34  
Well, we've got a four-player set right up then with us. So let's do it!

Ian  1:09:38  
What you guys doing after this? And then outside of board gaming there's a few movies coming out soon that look quite good. There's that 'Don't worry darling'. I don't know if anyones seen the trailer, Florence Pugh and Harry Styles. Yeah, looks interesting, the kind of mysterious setup where these people are living in this sort of constructed community that it appears to be in the 1950s. But there's implications that maybe not it... all is not as it seems, 

JP  1:10:06  
Is it like Stepford Wives, kind of?

Ian  1:10:08  
Yeah, a little bit, a little bit. The trailers are quite mysterious. So it could, it could be a dud, but it looks quite interesting. So I look forward to that. And then I've got mini golf coming up, and stuff like that all my other hobbies. Yeah.

Becky  1:10:23  
You've life that isn't board gaming? You're not fitting in Ian!

Ian  1:10:26  
I know. This is the problem. And this is why I'm, you know, I'm concerned that I'm going to lose my spot is, I need to dedicate a bit more time to the old board gaming.

Becky  1:10:32  
So I'm going to talk about Astra. So we mentioned it a little bit earlier. So it is the nearest to a Kickstarter that I'll ever get, because I've actually pre-ordered it from a large online retailer, which isn't usually my preference. I would have rather bought it from like, you know, Mindclash themselves and got the extra promo cards and shiny things. But it went from around £28 pounds, if you bought it from the online retailer to about £40 pounds from Mindclash, for all the reasons we've just said, it's mostly postage and packaging. I think, you know, if that was the only option, you'd just do it, but I'm afraid the big online retailer got my money instead. So yeah, Astra is... it's like the latest Mindclash game, which I mentioned. And it is my first foray into their stuff. It is on the lighter end. You know, as we were discussing, it's not... they're very, very crunchy. Normally,

JP  1:11:21  
They've basically done a separate line called a Mindclash Play. 

Becky  1:11:25  
That's a bit infantalising, I'm not sure I'm a massive fan of that. However, you know.

Ian  1:11:32  
Here's the games if you can't understand our Big Boy games,

JP  1:11:36  
ABC. My first my game

Becky  1:11:40  
My first Mindclash

Ian  1:11:40  
However, for people like me and Becky, that is also exactly what we want. We'll just have to accept being patronised. Because it's true.

Kerley  1:11:49  
They're not wrong. But still, you didn't need to say it!

Becky  1:11:53  
It's about collecting stars and being astronomers and building constellations. The artwork, like I said before, looks absolutely beautiful. And as we all know, that is one of my huge, you know, I have to tick that off on a game otherwise, I'm just not gonna want to play. I did try and research the artist and see if they've done anything else board game wise or anything. But I couldn't see anything she's called Csilla Fekete or something. And it looks fairly like non aggressive, you sort of collaborate with other people, where you're discovering the constellations, whoever, like, completes, that particular constellation gets that ability, but everyone that has added to it gets the boons from the bottom of the card. So there's a little bit of kind of Co Op, but not strictly cooperative. So it is getting released at Essen Spiel this October, so hopefully won't have too long to wait. So yeah, I'm sure we'll let you all know what we think about it as soon as it gets here and we get it to the table. I hope Yeah. I hope it won't be too long. Because it looks good

JP  1:12:50  
It does look good

Ian  1:12:52  
If it's got pretty pictures and nice components, Becky's sold. 

Becky  1:12:55  
Well the components are the Stardust, which is like a plastic... looks like a plastic...

JP  1:13:01  
It's the same as the Trickerion stone, in Trickerion. It's the same as the thing in Cerebria, I forget what it's called... 'willpower'. And in Septima that's the same as the little red gems. It's the same.

Becky  1:13:13  
Did they have too much leftover and they decided...

JP  1:13:16  
They've got the mould

Becky  1:13:21  
What does... What is stardust meant to look like, I mean, so you know, they've decided and that's it.

Kerley  1:13:26  
Clare Danes, if you remember the film, I wouldn't mind

Becky  1:13:30  
I don't think she'll fit in the box

Kerley  1:13:31  
I love that film, and I quite like Claire Danes as well....

Becky  1:13:33  
On that note...

Ian  1:13:36  
Oh, that took a turn!

Becky  1:13:41  
So on that note, we have reached the end of the podcast, so it's time to pack up all our meeples unless of course, it's JP's game, we're only he is allowed to put things back in the box. 

JP  1:13:49  
Damn right!

Becky  1:13:50  
No touching. Thanks to my fellow gamers at the table tonight. And thanks to all of you for listening at home or wherever you happen to be. If you've enjoyed the show, please like subscribe and review on your podcast player of choice and tell everyone you know to download it and send us your questions. We always want those and we can answer them on a future episode. You can contact us by sending an email us at players@whoseturn.co.uk , or go to our Facebook page at Whose Turn Is It Anyway Podcast. We've got our instagram page @whoseturnpodcast , and our Tiktok for you silly videos @whoseturnisitanyway. We'll be back again in another two weeks with another episode. But until then, whose turn is it?

Transcribed by https://otter.ai