Terri Cole on Building Boundaries for Better Relationships

my guest on today's Holy Human. Yet, actually, how are my friend Terry Cole? Welcome? Welcome to the Whole Human podcast. Thank you so so much for joining us. I'm so pumped to be here. I'm so excited to have you here. I have to say your book had me in all the fields, your Boundary Boss book, when I knew that you were coming on and I was like, Okay, I

have to dig into this book. I have to say that it was it was a bit intimidating because I feel like my boundaries have pretty much been non existent for my whole life. Do you find that this is a common feeling for people? Do you find that boundaries are intimidating? Yeah? Completely, And if you're raised as a woman. I mean, really think about it. Your situation is five times more complicated because you became highly visible at a

young age. So let's just do this in front of the whole world, fantastic, where normally we're just having no boundaries whatsoever within our families or communities, because most of us were raised and praised. If you were raised as a woman for being a self abandoning, codependent, like we got praise for the more self sacrificing, the more giving, be nice, and this was like the highest virtue humanly possible. For at least where I grew up, it was all

about being nice. So I just learned to say yes when I really wanted to say no because I thought being nice was more important than being honest. Wow, that's it right there. I mean, we've put so much more weight on being the nice especially, like you said, the nice girl, the nice woman, instead of being truthful. And when you say truth, what comes up for me as the juxtaposition of being nice as being mean. Truth is mean.

That's kind of what I've equated. There's no way of telling your truth without the anger and the bitterness and the resentment and things that come behind that, And this is a whole new lesson for me that I'm stepping into in my own life of telling my truth in a clear way without having to have the push of all of these heavy emotions behind it, which is so hard, right,

but think about it this way. Part of why we equate truth with meanness is a you wait too long when you learn that you should suppress how you feel if someone else won't like it. So this is like people pleasing syndrome validation outside of ourselves. Then we wait a super long time, so by the time you can't even contain that truth anymore, you will use a sledge hammer, even when like a pencil eraser would have done the trick. Because we're so piste. We waited too long, and now

we're a volcano. Because the truth about frustration and not being seen and not being heard and not being known is that there's a cumulative effect. So it starts in childhood and then it just goes from relationship to relationship where you're like I, I'm checking boxes, making sure everyone else has what they need. There's no conflict, I'm not rocking the boat. You need to get to a point where you're like and I can no longer do that,

you know, and that starts in childhood. I mean that starts with our parents and the way that we were parented. I know, I've been doing a lot of digging for myself, and I know that I was basically confused manipulation with love. I think a lot of us have God blessed my parents, but that was the way her mom parented her, and

that's the way that I got parented. And so even now I'm starting to realize in all the ways that I manipulate, which is such a hard thing to rub up against because to be honest about I'm not giving out of love. I'm giving out of manipulation in order to get my need met or out of fear. Then you come up against the question of like, well when do I give out of love? Like what is love?

What's something else other than manipulation? Because that's the way we've learned to love, that's the way we learned to get and receive love. And it's a it's a hard one. Well it is. It's like facing the shadow self and being like, Okay, I'm human. I've got the light, and of course I have the darkness because we all do. But I remember in my twenties and early third daies first coming up against like what is my shadow self? And it's super painful because we have a particular way

of perceiving ourselves ego dysk tonic. It's called where our idea of ourselves? When I was, you know, codependently attached to every human being on planet Earth in my life, giving out of not not love, right, giving out of wanting to be needed, and with codependency you're giving because it's fear of rejection. There's all of the things that are there. I really thought I was like mother Teresa. Like honestly, I was like, I'm just a lover like that,

you know. I mean, I'm just I'm just all hard as me until I had to me is in therapist right who helped me see because I was trying to manipulate and fix this situation that one of my siblings was in that was a bad situation and abusive relationship, drugs, no running water like that bad. Yeah, And I was crying to my therapist and being like what am I going to do? I've been I tried this, and I tried that, Like what am I going to do? You know?

And she was like, hello, Well, since it's not your life, watch and cry. I don't I don't know, but it's not on me to do something. But she was like, do you understand what's happening? And I was like no, but please enlighten me because I really don't understand. And she said, you've worked for twenty years in therapy or fifteen years whatever it was at that point to create a pretty harmonious in her life and a pretty harmonious

outer life, you know, relationships, whatever. So what's really happening is that you want to fix your sister's problems because her dumpster fire of a life is getting in the way of your internal peace. Interesting, that is so much less cool than being mother Teresa, but whatever. Yeah, absolutely, it is for your own sanity so that you don't have to feel the paint through them. Basically, yeah, I

totally understand that. You talk about codependency. You talk about high functioning codependency in your book, and I was wondering if you could elaborate on that and what that is, what the signs are so we can all sit here like I'm doing and not our head. Yes that is us, because I feel like we all have a level of this to some degree, yes, especially being raised as women, because we really are the bridgers, the assuagers, the soothers of the world, so we're sort of the producers, like

keeping it going, you know. So first of all, the backstory on why high functioning codependency as opposed to just regular old codependency is that my clients didn't identify I would see codependent behavior, I would mention it, and they would go no, no, No, you're confused. I'm not dependent on squad like everyone is dependent on me. I'm doing everything, I'm making all the dough. No, you're wrong, I'm not

that I'm not involved with an addict. Right. There was this old school idea from Codependent No More that came out in the early eighties. Maybe so I got it because I had a different sort of relationship to codependency too. I found that my clients were highly capable, extremely smart women who were basically running the world, and yet they were doing it at the expense of themselves. So I added high functioning to codependency. Right. Yes, I'm raising my hands.

I'm glad you're explaining this because when I turned thirty, I had hit kind of rock bottom for myself and went into to treatment, and I basically went in for a codependency. I mean codependency and anxiety, depression and all things come along with it. But until your book, I was like, I'm not cod upend, what are you talking about? And then you talking about high functional codependent. I'm like, oh shit, I didn't really completely detached from that need

or that ameshment. I guess in a way, yes, and that behavioral interaction. So for those of you who don't know what codependency is, according to Terry Coal, it is being overly invested in the feeling states, the decisions, the outcomes, and the circumstances of the people in your life. But it's to the detriment of your internal peace, or your

physical or financial well being or spiritual well being. Because as lovers, mothers, bonus moms, all the things that we are, of course, we're invested in the happiness of the people we love. But when you're codependent, you feel responsible. So if you're listening to this and you're like, I don't know, am I, I'm going to ask you right now to check your urgency. When you're best friend gets in touch with you and says, oh my God, I have this

terrible situation, this thing happened. I don't know what to do. If that feels like you immediately jump into action, and it literally feels like your friends problem is yours to fix. You feel that weight and that urgency that is codependency now, because I feel the way in the urgency of the whole world, because I feel like I'm super empathetic and it's just me as an artist, I have that kind

of connection with life. How do you really differentiate between, Oh, I'm an empathetic person and then I'm also codependent because those can feel like very similar things. Well they can, but not really because here's the thing yet, yes, on the feeling thing, right, because in both situations there's a feeling element, But when you're codependent, you're not just feeling like compassion or empathy for your friends situation. You feel

responsible to fix it, and that is totally different. It's one thing to say to your friend, Hey, I'm here for you. How can I best support you? Right now? Are we brainstorming? What what do you need? How can I best support you? Knowing that just like in my sister's situation, it was not mine to fix, right my therapist has said to me in that scenario, what makes you think you know what lessons your sister needs to learn in this life? Right? And I was like, I

don't know. I think can we all agree cannot be in the woods with no running water with some crackhead's abusive? Like can we agree? You would think, But she was like I don't know, Terry, like I can't say that. That's not how she has to learn. And when I stepped back from that relationship, not you know and said, hey, if you ever really want to get out, I'm here. I love you, but I can't have you talking about

abuse all day long. Nine months later she got in touch, She's like, I'm ready to go, moved around to went back to school osber and did it on her own terms. And I was happy to be a part of the solution, but it wasn't my solution. It was her solution for her life. And I actually talked quite a bit in the book than to what you're talking about with highly sensitive people and empaths, because it does impact how we

interact in our relationships. If you identify as someone who is an EmPATH, we don't just feel sympathy for others we feel what's going on like it is going on for us, but the healthy part of our minds has to know it's not, and that we can be supportive and stay lovingly connected to others without thinking that we know better than they do. My pattern, my whole life has been I need to fix your emotional state so

that I can feel safe. I've worked through a lot of this, and like I said, many many years, and now I'm coming to a new level of understanding and working through some things. But Eddie, my husband was in a bad mood about something, and I allowed myself and I had a real experience and embodied experience of not having to go into his bad mood to fix it. I was like, I'll just let him. He's gonna do his own thing whatever. I'm going to have a good day. It doesn't have I don't have to match his mood.

And I felt strange. Number one and number two, I felt good. I was like, oh, because me matching his emotional state doesn't help either of us. It just and then he's out of it, and then I'm still in it. And then I feel resentment because all of a sudden, now I feel like I'm carrying it. For him and then he just he dejects from it, he feels better,

and now I'm carrying it. And so that's basically been like the dance of my whole life and the way that I feel like I've been codependent because I feel like I'm somehow emotionally saving people and then carrying the weight of it, which is a shitty way to live once you especially once you have an embodied experience out of it, You're like, WHOA that that's a heavy heavy weight to carry it is. It's also not great for relationships because it really builds because you know, I'm obviously

a recovering codependent, and it is a discipline. M I feel like it's a lot like stopping drinking right where it isn't just like oh good, I'm glad that's over right. You still have to mindfully because my nature would still be to fix the bad mood, to take on the bad mood too. I'm more about trying to change the bad mood right like where I'm like, what do you

have to be sad about? We have everything? You should be grateful, you know, judging I'm I'm more mean about it when I fall into it, but I really work not to end, to be able to acknowledge, or I'll say to my husband if he's in a bad mood, and of course, fifteen years ago, that would then be my mood, or I'd be fixing. I'm able to say, hey, how can I best support you? Seem like you're bummed. He'll used to say something sarcastic, because he's an artist.

He'd be like, if you could learn to draw. I'm like, okay, well I was being sincere and you're an asshole, so like, just no, exactly, let me take that over here and see you later. Totally, So he doesn't do that anymore. But you know, he'll say, no, it's I'm just in a mood. I'll be like, okay, but like you in being able to walk away and being like I am one person. My husband is a separate human being. It doesn't.

It is such a childhood thing to feel responsible for the whole room, like I'll throw myself under the bus to make it better for others, or to avoid conflict or to not rock the boat, or to make sure everyone else is happy. But of course you see, and all of us get to our peak moment and and

it looks different for me. I was diagnosed with cancer in my early thirties where and I have no doubt that there was some connection to my level of over functioning, overgiving, overdoing, feeling overly responsible for all of the humans on planet Earth right that I wouldn't stop, And so the universe was like, well, tapping her around the shoulder hasn't worked, so maybe throwing her down a flight of stairs will,

which it did, thank God. Yes, all right, on that note, we are going to take a quick break, but we'll be right back. Welcome back, Loves. I am talking with Terry Cole about the fun wake up calls that we get from the universe. I had that experience the other day of being on stage. I did my first show out um in sixteen seventeen months. I haven't had time off like that and not entertaining people for my whole life basically, And I was so triggered walking back into this.

I didn't realize how much my nervous system had actually like calm down until I walked back into it, and I was like, oh, all the unhealthy things about this and and it was And it's interesting because I've had to cater to thousands and thousands of people in front of me and what what I think they're wanting? Like that was kind of the way that I was That's what I was taught to do, and it doesn't feel good anymore. Now It's like what do I have to give? What am I wanting? And then how can they be

a part of that? And this is where it really hit me the other day, being on stage and being in front of people in the way that I can't cater like that anymore. And something that instantly came up for me is I'm done entertaining. I want to connect. And I see that as a through line through about my life, especially with my with my husband, with my friendships. It's like, I'm sick of entertaining. I want to connect wherever both of us are as separate, whole human beings,

Let's connect from there, because otherwise otherwise I do. I feel like I'm entertaining people constantly. But you know, Len, this is like a perfect time and the trajectory of your evolution to bring boundaries in in a real way, because that's what you're talking about, Like I am making a different relationship with my audience is basically what you're saying. I want the connection and not the separation that entertainment can be right, like, you're over there and I'm over

here making the connection. Not to mention, let's just establish quickly for those people who are listening and are like, I don't even know what freedom boundaries are because to do that, but we got into a conversation that just took the road all the way down. Yes, please do

just keep going. Okay. So, according to me in the way that I teach it in the book, is boundaries are you knowing your preferences, your desires, your limits, and your deal breakers and having the ability to communicate those when you so choose, right, you don't have to, you want to. So those are the things, your preferences, your desires, your limits, and your deal breakers. They're the things that actually make you uniquely you and mine make me uniquely me.

And so one of the biggest problems I saw when I, you know, I was in entertainment, you know, as an agent that became a psychotherapist. When I got into the psychotherapy world, besides my own boundary struggles and evolution, I saw that this lack of boundaries, even knowing what they are, lack of talking true as I call it was a frigging epidemic every person who came into my office, no

matter why they were walking through the door. When I really followed the dots back to the pain point, it was there in a pity, you know, to say no when they wanted to say no, or to share their preference about something with someone. Like we were trained to believe that being easy is preferable. Right, you don't have a preference just you know me? I mean, think about all the phrases that people say, right, you know me, I'm easy. It's all good, is it? Though? Like? Why

is having a preference not good? Like I don't get it, you know. So that's where we're going to start with boundaries and with talking true, because ultimately, if you don't share those things preferences, desires, limits, deal breakers with the people in your life, we're giving the people who we love the most corrupted intel or data about who we are.

So how can anyone authentically love us when we're so busy keeping ourselves in a box or trying to be pleasing to everyone else, or do we even know who we are? And I think so many women end up in my office being like I'm fifty and I have no idea who I am because I love done his checkboxes my whole life. That's been an interesting ride for me and I as I was reading your book, I

have yet to make my list of those. And you know what, I've found so much resistance when I've gone to do this in my life, to make my list of desires and needs, and I feel like I'm going to be taking up too much space when i create these lists, and then I think are these really mine? Or am I trying to still please someone within this list? And then you start to be so a meshed with the whole world basically that you don't know what's truly

yours and what's not. But I do think like just my simple thing I want to entertain and I want to connect like that all of a sudden felt like a real truth. I feel like there's body wisdom in this, and like when it feels like you connect so deeply where it feels like for me it runs through my whole body. I know, like that's me yep, But imagine feeling that way all the time because we love that. Yes. Well, well, the more you do this, though, the more you see

that as we honor our boundaries right. Because this is all about our relationship with ourselves. And even though we are raised to look outside of ourselves all the time to make sure everyone else is okay, the truth in life is that our relationship with ourselves right, that sets

the bar for every other relationship that we have. So if we have a low opinion of ourselves, if we work ourselves to death, if we're always last on our own list, so to speak, inevitably we attract people who are takers because we are givers, and then eventually we are resentful. So when you have a better relationship to yourself, take better care of yourself. I don't mean you personally,

I just mean in general. We are letting people know, oh hey, this is an appropriate way drawing boundaries is letting people know this is okay with me, this is not okay with me, right, And it's the most loving thing that you can do, because then the people in

your life actually know who you are. They're not guessing it always, And then we're we end up presenting those people for getting it wrong and then for allowing really this relationship where their needs are being taken care of only and ours are ours are not, And it's painful recently, I've I've had a much better relationship with self. And one of the things that has come up for me so deeply is the amount of resentment that I have

for the entire world. It's like and and to admit that what has been it's literally been over the past week. I'm like, I was in everything and everyone and having to do everything and this I mean, And my my therapist was like, yeah, I'm like, I'm glad you're angry, Like this is what I was trying to get to, Like we're getting somewhere, and I'm like, it doesn't feel like it's horrible, but it's true. When you can see that your needs have been you've been putting yourself last.

You know, I can see now why I resent everything. But that next step, though, like I totally feel that, I totally feel that in this is a phase of healing, and I think that there's a really important phase coming up where we start mourning. Yeah, the way we wished it was we start we need to like honor that that things didn't turn out the way exactly as we've planned,

or that we spent a lot of time. When I realized this about boundaries, I was like, oh, my God, like wasted the last fifteen years of my life, like dancing so fast, walking on eggshells, being exhausted, being resentful. I wish I had known this younger quote unquote, you know, but I needed to write about that journal, about that honor my sadness that I didn't have those skills sooner, so to speak. So with any transformation, in any change,

it's important that we mourn. Sort of like you said, I'm resentful, but but again, most of the time under resentment is something else, right, there is resentment is an easier emotion, but probably it's really a secondary and probably sadness the primary emotion, you know what I mean? Yeah, for sure, I definitely know there's tons of sadness there that I've come up against around not having my needs

met um by many different my parents, by by world. Recently, I just celebrated my year of my very first album, and to have to look back upon that was the has been really the first time I've ever looked back and truly appreciated my younger self and really had a very clear understanding of what I went through and not no longer in denial of of the challenges and the trauma that I've experienced over the last twenty five years, and it's been intense, but it's been it has been

really liberating. And there has been a lot of grief that is coming up as I look back, and I think that that grief, like you're saying, is such an important part. So I feel like I'm not I'm no longer living in the fantasy of thinking that it can still be better, Like I can make that part of my life better. Right, there's a great and Lemo quote where she said, um forgiveness quote unquote is basically giving up hope for a better past. You know what I mean.

I mean that that's I just butchered it. That's not exactly what it says, but the way she says it is quite brilliant, where it's like there's there's something profoundly um liberating can be in the acceptance of what was true, right, what actually happened, you know, And I think that many of us, you know, there's so much of the work that I do with boundaries and psychological health and mental wellness where I talk about going into the basement of

your mind. So right, this is the your unconscious mind where we repress a lot of things. But there's information that's down there, and we're not just bringing up like painful crap for no reason. We're bringing up these things because if we don't honor them, they then inform our

current life. We can't control the psychotherapeutic way the brain works, but we can honor what happened by writing about it, by honoring the kid that you were right, Like I think about different whether it's aged seven, thirteen, seventeen twenty one, all every age, all of us have injuries that happen in life, and when you're taught to like deny them, Like in my family that nobody was ever allowed to be mad. You know, it was like as long as

everything was positive, you could talk about it. So I really learned to be like, if it's bad, just deny it, repress it, you know, sweep it under the rug. But

of course that only works for so long, you know. Yeah, absolutely, Well, it's interesting when I think of boundaries, it's just been a bit intimidating my whole life because I think of boundaries, the only thing I really think of is like a wall between me and the world or a wall between me and other I feel like that's probably pretty common.

How do we begin to have these boundaries that are more pliable, because that really is what we're looking for, right, Like more a way to not only like push everything out, but allow the good stuff to also penetrate. Right, you want healthy boundaries, right, So boundaries come in different forms, right, they come in so poorest boundaries or too malleable, rigid boundaries are too firm as you're describing. And I think that the myth that people have is that rigid boundaries

are what healthy boundaries are, which is not true. So people think that it's like saying no and rejecting and confrontation and being mean and being stingy and being greedy and being selfish. I mean, I could keep going because I've heard so many from people like I'm afraid of this.

I don't want them to think that when it comes to boundaries, and I'm like, listen, all we're talking about is starting with knowing who you are and starting to understand what your preferences, your desires, your limits, and your deal breakers are in life, knowing that you have a right to those things. And the reason I put them in categories is because your preference is not the same as a deal breaker. They are all different levels of

boundaries and different levels of importance. Right a preference. Maybe I want to go to bed early and my husband wants to go to bed late. That's a preference. Maybe we can meet in the middle, maybe we can't, but I'm not going to get divorced over it. You know someone who's in recovery but then relapses, that might be more of a deal breaker. So part of it is understanding that there's no like across the board. This is

healthy boundaries. Each situation is individual, and I think the easiest place to start is to just stop the auto yes, because a lot of us are people pleasers. A lot of us don't even feel like we have the right to take time to think about it. If someone asked something, you're like, right, yep, okay, good, I'm there, And that is sabotaging your ability to have a good boundary or to be honest. So that's the first step that I have people do, which is to just buy time for

the next three to five days. No matter what anyone asks you to do, you cannot give an immediate response. Because we've also trained people in our life, We've trained them to expect us to get back to them immediately. We we don't even feel like we can take a day, many of us. And it depends on what your boundary dysfunction is. Right, Some people are loners. Right did you take I don't think you did. I meant to send you my boundary quiz. It's just called boundary dot com.

So if anyone wants to take it, it's boundary quiz dot com. And this will give you the arc type that your most and it's only thirteen questions. It's super quick to do. But you know it. You know what the answers are when you're like, oh yeah, totally me, totally me. Because when you get the arch type, you can either be like, let's say, the chameleon, push over the peacekeeper, or like the ice queen or the loner. I feel like, depending on the situation, I could be

one of all of those. You know, It's true, were usually more than one, right, right, but we almost always have one predominant because a chameleon, which is someone who kind of just goes along to get along with like what other people are doing, is a bit different than a peacekeeper who is actively putting out fires that are not they didn't start and are not theirs, but they want to make sure so you'll see there there is a distinction, and I think that understanding that is a

really helpful place to start. But if you're someone who feels like you have the disease to please other people, or that you know you have this people pleasing syndrome, and if you feel like you're codependent, meaning you know, think about what is codependency. It's an overt or covert bid to control the outcomes of other people. Right. We don't want our friend to get into that terrible relationship, or we don't want our partner to make that big

mistake we think they're going to make. And yet, when you're not codependent and you have healthy boundaries, you know that those things are the people you love. That there's to decide. It doesn't mean you can't brainstorm with or talk about it with them. But we're not auto advice giving all the time, constantly making suggestions and doing more than we need to, because all of that stuff is codependency. So I say, let's just start by stopping the auto

yes buying time, which can be super easy. You just say, oh my god, thank you so much for thinking of me. Can I let you know by Friday. Yeah. And if they go, no, I need to know sooner. You're like, well, if you need to know now, what to know because I don't make instant decisions. And but if you can wait till Thursday, that's like, you know, we can negotiate for what it is we want to do. That sounds like me deciding on whether or not I want to do a show, like I'll I'll get an offer, and

they're like, they need to know today. I'm like, well, I guess it's a now totally because you're like, so, you know what better I have to say. I've gotten I've gotten much better with my boundaries. But I mean, I think your book really did point out so many places, which is great. I mean that's I'm open to seeing all the places in which I've I've yet to grow in these areas, and I think this is probably the last place for me because I feel so I've learned

so well how to be a people. Please are like, I've gotten it down. I've gotten it down on such a large scale. Being down with this downtime during COVID, like it's actually given me a lot of us a reset point. And I'm feeling like I don't have to jump back into like all of these yeses, and it's there. There is an internal like spaciousness that comes along with

that that feels so good. As I'm thinking about because I really am going to go take that quiz that I'm I'm gonna do my list of preferences and desires and deal breakers. But how do you determine what the differences between a preference and a desire. A preference is something that is not that serious. I prefer coffee over tea. God, I prefer a shower over time. I have a preference. You know, you go out to your deciding to go out to dinner. You know, I think I feel like

having this eat. That's a preference. That's how your partners like, oh no, please, I'm to have such a hanker for this other kind of food. You could be like, okay, we'll have that other kind of food maybe, you know. So preference is less serious. I find it with desires, they're they're bigger things. You may have a desire to live somewhere else. You may have a desire to change careers. You may have a desire to sort of renegotiate what's

going on within your marriage or your friendships. So desires are a little bit more important, I think. And then we move into the limits, which are the things you're like, no, I do not this is this is a limit for me. I don't want to do that. But then a deal breaker is something that is a total non negotia, right, absolutely, all right, we are going to take a quick breather, but we'll be right back with more wisdom from Terry Cole.

Welcome back, loves. We are discussing how boundaries can actually make or break healthy relationships. As we begin to set these boundaries is and we began to train the other is in our life to treat us in a different way. Obviously, that change and that shift is going to cause a lot of ripples. What do you find people come up against the most one are the most the biggest challenges in their relationships. And as we start to shift these dynamics, what are some of the ways in which we can

possibly make these shifts a little bit smoother. Yes, Well, here's the thing. Yes, when you're changing the dance, right, every relationship is like a dance, So your partner is going to notice that you're changing something. Usually so The first thing is to be prepared that people are going to notice and that they will feel threatened by you changing. So that's okay. Like, if you're a people pleaser, you've got to get that it's okay for someone to not

like what you're doing in this moment. For someone to not like that you've decided you're no longer going to be doing the grown kids laundry at home or whatever the thing is, people will be up in arms like, oh my god, what do you mean you always did it this way? Okay, well I'm changing that. What I see the most is once we realize we need to change something, there is such a desire to make a big announcement about it, to like get a megaphone and

be like, bitches, everything is going to change. I feel like that right there with you in my life right now, so please help me out with this. So we don't want to do that, Like the megaphone telling everyone there's a new boundary share in town is not that helpful because that is the codependent part that feels anxious, and we just want to discharge some of that anxiety by being like, I want to let you know it's all changing. What really works, though, is to change things slowly, one

next right action at a time. So we start with our preferences. If you're someone who wouldn't normally share your preferences, we do it. If here's someone who always shares your preferences, because your boundaries are more rigid and you're bossing the hell out of everyone and everything has got to be your way. Instead of asserting your preferences more, I'm going to ask you to step back a little bit because

that is a fear driven response as well. Never sharing them and over sharing them two sides of the same coin. The coin is disordered boundaries. But we're doing it one situation at a time. You can show the people in your life that you can stay lovingly connected to them

and still stand in your strength and your boundary. So I would say to someone, whether it was my mother who was upset about something or whoever, I see that you're upset that I'm no longer going to host Christmas in my whatever whatever the thing is, And I love you and I'm sad that you're upset, and yet this is what I need to do for myself. So Vic and I are going away during Christmas. So I am

glad that you know. I expect you to respect the boundary, but I also understand so we can celebrate the week before, let's celebrate the week after whatever, so I don't have to be mad. Part of it is we cannot be so thin skinned and reactionary that the moment we get pushed back back in the day when you were a total code of bender, or when I was, I could immediately be that chameleon that moved into changing my message to make sure that they were not upset about what

I was doing. Right Like, the moment I got pushed back, I'd be like, no, no, you misunderstood me. I would like to be like what I said was what I meant was. So we're not doing that because we can't be that thin skinned. It's going to take time to

change these dances. So here's the thing. It's okay to be uncomfortable when you start to draw new boundaries, when you start to speak up or talk true, I like to say in a different way, there's a part of you that's gonna want to take that boundary back so bad, Like you're gonna so much want to call them back and be like forget it. It's fun. I can work on New Years whatever or whatever. The thing is right, We're not doing that. So I have a rule in

the book. We have a forty eight hour rule where you're gonna be okay, You're just gonna up your self care even though you feel guilty, you feel bad, do you think you're a rotten human being? All of that is an amplified response to changing. It is the child within you that is totally afraid they're going to be in trouble. You're not in trouble, and I promise you, after forty eight hours, you do will not want to

take that boundary back. Absolutely. I just had this whole experience with my mother and setting a boundary with her, and I had such grief after it. I cried for like twenty four hours, and I was like, I'm there was a piece at me that was like, I'm the most awful person. This is my mother. How could I

do us to her? How could I hurt her? And then, like you're saying about forty hours later, I was like, Okay, I just went through that whole process and I feel really good and now I feel like I'm standing on my own two feet a little more as an adult woman. It really does take. Forty eight hours is a great tool.

It is a great tool. It gives some space. And like you're saying, if after forty eight hours we feel the need to go back on that, I think then there's something that we should be reevaluating that in our boundary in the first place. So yeah, for hours. I

gotta tell you. At a time, women in my courses, people who get in touch with me who have been reading the book, they're like, it's amazing, And what kind of blows people's minds, Like I'm thinking, like, what is the feedback that I get the most when people start

this process is how readily others except their boundaries. We always start with lower priority people because it would be hard to start with the mother's right because they're that's hard, or even the partners, that's hard because these are primary v I P s in our life. So we start with lower priority people, like whoever, whoever it is, whether

it's your colorist or your mail carrier or whoever. If you have a preferencey video of something you'd like to say, if your lunch comes and it's not what you're breaking, order to send it back, do the things out in the world that you wouldn't normally be doing, because that starts to set you up to be like okay, And the feedback is that people are surprisingly cool right with the boundaries that, of course the person setting them was positive that there was going to be a big brawl,

the world was going to stop spinning on its access, they were going to spontaneously light into flames, and that did not happen. So that's amazing, And then you get more confident. Like you said, forty eight hours later, you felt better. We can still say it bums me out. I wish, I wish my mom didn't feel that way, and yet this is still the right thing for me to do for me and that has to be our top priority. And we've been so trained to think that

that's being selfish, and the reality is you do. Really, if we want something valuable to give to the people in our life who we love, we can't give it from an empty bucket. We can't give it by checking boxes and being bitter, because that's what that is. The end result of disordered boundaries is being angry with other people. Instead of focusing on our inability to say no, we

focus on Betty's entitlement or Bob's behavior. When you know that you can say no, that you're not doing what doesn't work for you in your life, and that you can do this lovingly and with kindness and with ease and with grace. I mean eventually, like in the beginning it might be messy, but you'll get there, you know what I mean. Yeah, absolutely, it's basically the projection. Instead of dealing with, like you're saying, your inability to say no and how uncomfortable it is for you, you project

that anger and frustration out onto the rest of the world. Yes, I understand that very well. That is correct. Yeah, it's this is I love this conversation because I feel like there's such power and strengthen it. It's interesting even you were saying how we've learned that selfishness is bad. I look at your even the title of your book boundary Boss.

I was giggling to myself this morning because I was thinking in the past, for me, that would have been like boundary bitch, Like you know what I mean, Like, that's what the what I think of when I say, when you put boundaries and boss into one, you know, one little couple there, it's I think of, Oh, she's a bit like that's how we've been trained, and it's so beautiful to be able to and I think such a gift to the self, and also like you're saying to everyone around you, to be able to come into

a play where you can lovingly give direction and the way to love me. Yes, it's really what it is. It's that something it is. And why do we make the people in our life guests because they always freaking get it wrong, and not because they're idiots, because they're not us right right, and they're not mind readers. No, So it's so much even if you just when I used to counsel couples, which I absolutely hated, but when I did do it, just improve I could to myself.

It was so stressful to me personally anyway. I would say to the husbands and this is like heteronormative, that's who the who the clientele was. So the husbands would complain they they wanted, you know, more sex. The women would complain they wanted more help and they didn't want their husbands fixing them, and they just were like, can this person ever just listen to me without like making

a suggestion I'm not going to take. So it really boiled it down to teaching the husbands to say, hey, babe, how can I best support you? Would be great. How about just asking her? And then I would say to the wives, and then it's your job to share, how is that person best supporting you? Make me a cup of tea, sit down and talk to me. Wonderful around Like, I don't know. There's lots of ways that you could

write and support the person. And I said to the husbands, you know, you think that you want more physical intimacy, But I'm telling you, if you looked at the act of thinking about your wife when you're not with her doing the things that you know she wants you to do around the house without her asking you eleven times, think of that as for a play, because that's how

it's going to impact her. The more she has to harangue you, the less thought about she feels by you during the day, not when you're looking to get laid, like when you're actually just you know, out in your life. That's that, Oh my god, so simple, that's so true. Like Okay, I think I can do that. Just take out the damn garbage without her asking, and she might want to do you would be all right love, and on that inspiring note, We're going to pause very quick break,

but we'll be right back. Hello friends. Terry was just breaking down how different reactions and our day to day lives can set us on the path clearer boundaries. I want to shift just a little bit to what you call boundary destroyers. When I got to this piece of the book, I was like, WHOA, I have a few of these in my life and a few of them that aren't going anywhere, and so can you describe what a boundary destroyer is? First off, sure, I did a whole chapter on this because it is very common. So

these are people who are emotional predators. There are ootional manipulators. It could be intentional, it could be unintentional. It could be these cluster b personality disorders like narcissistic personality disorder, by polar histrionic, oppositional. There's a whole bunch that go

into one sort of group. So what I wanted the reader to understand is that everything that I teach you up unto that point does not apply two boundary destroyers, because the rules don't apply to boundary destroyers because they are incapable. These personalities that I'm talking about incapable of really taking in another person. They don't have that. You know, if you think about narcissistic personality disorder, we talk about there's an in um, their incapable of having real empathy

for others. It's like scary, sad, but it's true. So but allowed of people with these personality disorders and with these these challenges can really seem like they can pretend like they can do this, and yet everything is a manipulation to their end, whatever it is that they want. And so it's very important to how I break down the chapter is sharing with the reader what are the sort of the biggest tools that boundary destroyers used to

destroy our boundaries. So you have gas lighting, right, which you know has become kind of popularized, where it's somebody basically denying your reality, trying to really trying to make you doubt your own sanity. There is love bombing, where it's like just pouring on the compliments. And you know, anyone who's been in a relationship with a narcissist knows

what this is. It's too good to be true because you're the most amazing thing and sex is unbelievable, and they want to fly to Paris for dinner, and they can't wait to take you to a wedding, Like and they asked you to go to wedding and it's not for like two years. You're like, oh my god, we're totally getting like druss me if it seems too good to be true. With love bombing, it's there's also an accelerated timeline, like you met in like in three weeks,

they're like, we're moving in together. You're like, oh my god, Okay, well this is moving kind of fast. And someone was like, but how do I know if that person I met and it happened really fast, how do I know that that was, you know, love bombing? I was like, Hi, if it's five years later and the person is still good to you and you're still things are amazing, it wasn't love bombing. It was just a relationship that moved fast.

Love bombing and this cycle of abuse, it goes from you're the most amazing thing to some kind of situation where now you fall out of favor with the narcissist. Then they discard you. There they're rejecting you. You're you're working over time to get back in their good graces, and then the cycle happens all over again. It can happen weekly, it can happen every four years, but it's painful.

The whole thing is painful. So you want to be aware of psychologically, what are the tricks acting that they're concerned about you, right, So if you say something that they don't like, you're pointing out their crappy behavior and something. They'll be like, but I'm really worried about you. You're you're really off the rails right now. I don't know, are you okay? Oh yes, oh am I okay, yeah. You just don't want me to talk about the thing I'm talking about. So now you're gonna put me on

the defensive. But here's the thing. If you read this chapter and you get really well versed in these tricks of the trade from these master manipulators, you will not fall. You won't be such a victim to them in your life because this isn't just about romantic relationships. This is friendships, this is work relationships, this is people on your team, this is you know what I mean? Because the cracked pot finds the correct lid, which is why we want

to heal these childhood wounds. Whatever they may be, so that because a lot of times we're not only acting these things out or playing them out in our romantic lives. Obviously we have relationships with lots of people where this can be acted out. But there's lots of things that you can do to not allow these types of personalities to manipulate you. Stepping back, yes, drawing boundaries, but we

do it differently with boundary destroyers. It's more about removing their access to our most tender heart, which is challenging. It can be very, very challenging. And I've noticed that I know all of these things. But then when I'm like, oh, I'll open the door and things, will you think that people have changed because they their covert ways of making you think that they have changed is they're so good

at it. I've stepped back before from some people and been like yours, that's amazing, Like I'm i am you should win an Oscar for that performance. Like there's something in me that's still going back and opening that door and opening that boundary just enough to be hurt again. And this chapter was so eye opening because I see so much of this, but I've never had words for it. So for you to be able to put it into words and to really like be able to see exactly

what's going on was so so helpful. I highly recommend people get your book because I it's really been super super helpful. I love all of the bonus information that you have for people on this book. For people to really get clear and in touch with themselves, I think is so important, Like this is foundational for us to live happy, healthy lives. Yes, it is and self determined.

So thank you so much for your kind words, and I'm hoping that this is I just want to reach as many people as possible who are suffering in a way that they could learn these skills and you your joy will be exponentially higher and your suffering will be exponentially lower. You know, Yeah, what if there was one take way that you want people to walk away with from this at the beginning of their boundary boss journey.

What's the beginning? I know they can go take your boundary quiz, but is there anything else that where people should begin. Well, here's the thing. The way that begin with the book. Go to Boundary boss book dot com. Begin with the book because I literally start at the very beginning and I walk you through every single step

of the way. I also have a course where I actually, in real life walk people through and that starts and I think it's starting in the third week in September this year, where it's live right, so people can get their actual questions answered. And there's a whole group element that's amazing. But part of it is no that you can do this. You got this, and I got you like I know you, I was you. There's nothing to be ashamed of. You shouldn't know this already. Think about

it like learning a foreign language. You don't feel guilty or bad or ashamed of yourself if you weren't just suddenly fluent in another language. That's being fluent in boundaries. It is a language. And I give you a whole chapter on just scripts, which is right. I'm so going to be using them, by the way, Yes, please please do I love it. But you can do it, is

all I'm saying. You can do it, yes, And thank you for mentioning that shame piece, because I know there's so much shame around this for so many of us. So I'd love that if you you wouldn't be ashamed learning foreign language. So that's what we're doing. Just simple, correct, let's do it together. Yes, I always ask my guests that I have one about five songs in their life. I call him the Holy five that you're either into right now or that you've just loved your entire life,

and why so bring it out? All right? Here we go. First of all, I wrote ten, but I'm always going to tell you five because I was like, I can't. And when I realized, can I just say what happened for me? When I did this yesterday? I was like, hi year old, Like literally, I went into my I tunes, I was like the top most listened to. I was like, Wow, they've been the same for like twenty years. That just made you love them so much? I do, all right, So Marvin Gaye and Tammy Terrell, you're all I need

to get by. Oh yeah, Areatha Franklin natural one the day I'm mad? So you are the key to Lappy piece of Black, Barbara Streisan or Luther v androws how it's not a Home. I love that it's There's not but blue, but I love both those versions. And Barbara's goes into one less bell to answer, so good. Um, Okay, Then we have Joan Osborne's cover of Dolly Pardons. Do I ever cross your mind? What I've never heard that? That's so cool? And do you live this feelings and

love we shared when you are with me? Do you, Darling? I just wonder, do I cross your mind? It's a compilation of all other artists covering Dolly's stuff on the album is called Just Because I'm a Woman, Uh huh, and there's so many I also love Code of Many Colors on there, and Shanayan does an amazing version of that from but What It's so although we had no money here, what trenches? That could be my Code of

Many Colors? Mamma, thank you, thank you so fun. I so appreciate you caring about your mental health and all the good that you're doing in the world helping people find mental health wellness. Thank you. I have um. I really did thoroughly enjoy your book and I'm going to be diving in more so. Thank you for thank you for bringing this to the world. I think we all are in desperate need of it right on. Thanks my love,

have a good day to be continued. Yes, I'll talk to you soon and that ends this boundary building episode. I'm holy human. Thank you all so much for spending your time with me as always, and please post your thoughts wherever you're listening. I'd love to see if this land is the view. Also, if you feel this conversation could benefit a friend, please feel free to share this with them too. Until next time. On our next Holy Human,

I'll be joined by my friend Kyle Cease. He is a man who left comedy to bring more happiness and peace into the world, and I am so glad that he did because you will not want to miss his wonderful way of merging laughter and spirituality. Such a fantastic guy, and I'm so glad that we have met through the podcast. He's become a friend of mine. So until then, I wish you all love, take care of each other, love yourself,

love everyone around you, and I'll see you soon. Holy Human with Me Leanne Rhymes is a production of I Heart Radio