Mastin Kipp on Healing Trauma and Living Your Purpose

me for this Holy Human. Yea happy okay mass, and thank you so much for coming on the Holy Human podcast. I've been following your work over Instagram is how I discovered you, Um, yes, several months ago, and I just found out that you were actually a manager in the music industry, which I had no idea about because I know you as a functional life coach. So how I'm always amazed and really, you know, blown away by someone

who has such a radical shift in their journey like that. Um, can you share a little bit of your story and what caused you to start to look for greater purpose in your life? Absolutely? And before you just wanted to say thank you so much for having me and for reaching out. It's a really honored to be here. Yeah, So I moved to the to Los Angeles to had a very specific goal. I wanted to work at a company called The Firm, and then I wanted to be

um Uh, which we can talk about I did. And then I wanted to run fred Durs's record label, Flawless Records a Gavin, which I ended up doing. I did both of those things. I had met fred Uh in like N six on the Warp tour in Lawrence, Kansas, many moons ago. I was a very young child at that time. I got a fourteen fifteen, sixteen years old, and he was friends with a buddy of mine who sold toys and would always bring fred Durst toys at

different concerts, and we were always kind of backstage. And so my high school experience like backstage with corn and Limp Biscuit and no one would believe me again and

stuff like that. And when I got to l A, I was very serious about it and I found it ended up working there, and you know, I mean, what's coming out now in terms of just the general vibe of the Hollywood right in terms of how traumatizing it is and the culture of it, how toxic it is I felt that when my first days on the job, I saw where my bosses come in literally a hammer and slam a BlackBerry in like a that's so long ago.

It was a BlackBerry in a case because it wasn't working, and I was just like, I guess this is normal. I'll do what I can um And eventually it was first one and the last one out. Cook did drugs all that stuff. But I was so in awe. Like we put together the MT the tribute for nine eleven, like we helped produce that, and I was like, oh my god, Like I was this is Kim Kansas. Now I'm helping with something like this, And as you know, it's just that the connection that's there is just so amazing.

But then it's contrasted by all this toxicity on the back end. And at the end of the day, a long story short, I just kind of decided and this is not president, party, President, president, company excluded, but the artists that we were working with were so inconsistent that it was also scary to think about, Oh my god, like if they overdose or whatever, then my career is

not gonna do some well. So it's just I was just so much toxicity that I decided, like I had to get out and I started loving personal development, not because I wanted to teach it, because I really needed it, you know, to like get clean, get sober. I wanted to feel as good off the drugs as I did on the drugs, because I felt good on them when

I first started doing them. And I think I started doing this work because I started posting quotes on my Space that's a long talme, yeah, and people responded to it. And honestly, le and I came making and screaming into this career because in my head I wanted to be like who Scooter Braun is today or something like that. That's where I wanted to become. But nothing worked out when I did the music business for after a while,

but I think this path opened up. And then when I started working with people, I was like, well, I'll help them. And you know, when you're a manager, you don't have like limiting beliefs come up about should we booked this tour right? Like it's just like we couldn't done, and we talked away Morris or whoever, and we make it happen. So when I was working with clients and they would say they're gonna do something, they didn't do something.

It was very confusing for me, and eventually, after asking why enough, I realized that most people have been through very hurtful things that informed why they weren't doing things. And I explained a lot of artists that had worked with and I was like, Oh, there's this hateful thing that people are going through. And I was like, why is nobody talking about this? It seems kind of interesting, and they kind of evolved from there. That's very brief

synopsis the process. This music industry is so fucked up.

It really is. I've been in it since I was so we talk about trauma like I mean, I think I'm actually finally as a recent really being honest about some of the trauma that I've been through in the industry because I think to have I mean, I've been in it for twenty five years basically, and to to survive this industry, there's a certain amount of denial that comes with it, and I feel it so deeply in my body when I think about it, because I I know how much denial I've had to, how much I've

had to deny my own reality in order to just survive it. And so it's it's fascinating. I think that's why I was so drawn to your work. I've done so much, I've done so many things in the last eight years of so many different modalities of healing and working on myself. And that's really how this whole podcast

came about. Um that I but when it comes to trauma and specifically trauma informed, first off, I don't Sometimes I don't even know if people know what we're talking about, when when, and or if they're even if we even, like I said, are willing to admit you know that we have been through it, and you know you take what you call a trauma informed approach to healing. For someone who might not be familiar with your work, can

you explain what that is? And yeah, yeah, And I feel like talking about trauma is like talking about cancer or something really scary, and so like, before I even define it, I just want to say that when you do your trauma work, like that's what helps you achieve the goals to you know, not stop and start and stop and start and procrastinate, but actually to finish things, to be happier, to whatever you're doing to change your life. Like it's like miracle growth for that modality right when

you start to do the trauma work. So like there's a lot of benefit to doing the trauma work and the somatic work. And trauma is not like just the capital t trauma that we think of We think of abuse or neglect, or we think of you know, wartime trauma and stuff like that. Shock trauma thinks that result like really like egregious obvious physical injury, right, that's what we think of, like blunt force trauma and stuff like that.

All those things are trauma. But what we're really focused on when we talk about like emotional trauma is the invisible trauma that doesn't bleed, right. It's it's a nero, it's a neurochemical imbalance. Their pathways in the body that don't link up when they should. Parts of our psyche gets fragmented that you don't see on X rays or m r I s or you know, a CT scans

and stuff like that. Trauma informed means that you're aware of what trauma is, and that you're aware of the impact and the systems that produce the trauma, and then you do your best. This comes from sansa um. You do your best to you know, integrate those understandings into your company values, into how you do things, into your day to day life. It does not mean that you're qualified to work with someone who has trauma necessarily because

trauma informed and trauma trained are very different. But basically just means you understand that, like, yeah, there's a unique type of trauma for I don't know, black people, and then there's even a different type of trauma for mixed race people. And there's a different type of trauma for you know, women, and there's a different type of trauma for the l g B t q A plus community, the BIPOP community me. And you're able to say, yeah, that's there, right, and like we're not doing that as

a culture right now. We're still in sort of that trauma denial, but it's becoming more and more obvious. Um that obviously there's there's trauma there, um, but being being understand that that's what it is. And then let's define trauma. So you can get a million different definitions. Um. I think most of them are really bad, actually, especially the one from the d s M five, which is where

all the diagnosis come from. So it talks about something so shocking and all this stuff, and that's not really what trauma is. It can be. But I define trauma as I call myself an n m D, which is not a medical doctor. Okay um, But I define trauma as any experience. It's kind of verbose, but it's any

experience of threat, disconnection, isolation, or immobilization. So threat disconnection, isolation, or mobilation, immobilization that leads to the long term disregulation or non optimal functioning of or emotions your brain, your body, your health, or your spirit. They got it. So basically life, your life, and that that's the whole point, right is it? Like it's way more invasive than we realize, and it's

way more impactful than we realize. And if you're not in a pretty much a joyful state, feeling you're living on purpose, then there's probably a trauma response there, probably, And we just have to have a more nuanced definition and conversation about what that trauma is and then how did you get it and where it comes from and how does that inform by what you're doing now makes complete sense based on your history, right, which can be As you talk about that, I'm like, oh, that's it

can almost overtake me it can be incredibly overwhelming because when you start going on that rabbit hole, it's like, oh, well, yeah, that was traumatizing, and so is that, and then so is that, and you know, it can be very overwhelming to to even begin that conversation with ourselves. Oh yeah, and and that's why for us, like in our programs, like the first thing we teach people is we don't

go to the trauma. The first thing we teach people is like how to regulate their nervous system and like basically to normalize emotion, because I think the biggest problem we have in the world today when it comes to mental health, personal growth, spiritual development is fear of emotion and that that the clinical term for that is affect, which is just emotion affect phobia. Right, So we have

an emotional phobia. And what we want to do is we want to understand, like there's gonna be these different responses in your nervous system. Here's how they are, here's how to go there, but then here's how to go there and then come back. Because a lot of people feel like if they go to depression or they go to anxiety, if they go to panic attack or overwhelmed

that they'll be stuck there forever. That was one of my biggest, biggest concerns when I started to touch upon all of my pain, was that, oh, if I go there, I won't come back. Yeah, it does feel that way. I mean the body you do have that experience. It can be so it can flood do you so deeply you're like, wait, I'm not coming back from this. That's right.

And the reason why you feel that way is because the most likely there was a time in your history where probably when you were younger, that's how you did feel all the time, right, And so it's a very valid concern to have. But if you normalize emotion and you help people understand the map of their nervous system, and poly Bagel theory has helped us tremendously with that. To me, poly Bagel theory is to mental emotional health, what like the theory of relativity was the physics, Like

it just changes the game completely. Can you tell us what that is? Exactly? Basically, it's the science of safety and connection. It's a neuroscience. And I don't want to get too too deep into it because I can go there. But basically, basically, in Ninete Langley wrote the book on the autonomic nervous System that was picked up where Darwin left off. Okay, so Babe Ruth won his first world series. Like it was a long time ago. We just wrapped up were one. You know, there's like it was, you know,

do we just come out of the last pandemic? So there was it was a long time ago. The rain twenties were about to start, and so Langley wrote the book the Autogompic Nervous System, and he focused on pathways from the brain down to the body. The technical term for those are efferent pathways from the brain to body. He kind of saw afferent pathways body to rain, but

you can't highlight them right. So basically because of that, that's kind of the seminal piece on nervous system that has like been this like kind of go to reference manual for everybody since, which is why across the board and spirituality, personal development, and mental health it's called mental health right, mental health right that those are all sort of Langley after effects from and basically what Langley said was is it's all about the brain and there's an

on off switch between sympathetic and parasympathetic, which is the part of you that is calm is parasympathetic, and the part of you that is stressed is sympathetic UM. And that's basically that one can't be on when the other one is on UM. And poor just Dr Stephen Porsche's comes around goes, actually, let's look at these bodied brain pathways. And what he discovered is that there's not two parts of the nervous system like Langley proposed, actually three parts

of the nervous system. And uh, basically you can think like a stoplight, red, yellow and green, right, UM, And it evolved as we evolved over the millions of years. So we have a reptilian part, we have UM, a very mamalion part, but then we have this very unique human part. And depending on how much challenge we have,

we go to green, yellow, or red. So if we have too much challenge, right and we can't handle something, we go straight to red, which is like it's like a turtle with its shell and its head in its shell. That's called the dorsal Bagel system, where you kind of immobilized,

you're you're you're mobilized, you can't move. If there's tough challenge, but manageable challenge, and we go to yellow or sympathetic, which is fight or flight, which we've heard of, right, And then when there's like a manageable amount of challenge, wearing green and green is called the ventral vagel system, which is basically like you really good heart rate veriability as you're feeling really calm, and really organize your executive function like the good neo cortex, Like the smart part

of our brain is like in charge. We have good breathing, we have pro social behavior. And what's interesting is that the red and the green parts are parasympathetic, but they have different purposes. What we now know is that the green part helps us be pro social, to heal, to you know, being have transpersonal or spiritual experiences that feel good, feel on purpose, right, and the red part is more

of a hiding or immobilization thing. And what poor just also helps usunderstand is that you can bring green to yellow and green to red so that it's not just on or off. You can have blended states as well, right, which is like the goal because you think about what's what is play? When you're playing, right, you have sympathetic, You're you're moving, You're kind of have that like adrenaline going right, but you feel safe, right, which is super

than anxiety, which is just sympathetic without that green ventral part. Right. So it's it's it's it's it's anxiety without safety. And then I live there often. Oh yeah, we Yeah, that's very coming to me too, you know, just because I talked about does have master so interesting to play piece? Because yeah, I was just talking to my therapist the other day and we're actually talking about how much I don't I don't play enough. I don't think we all

play enough. And I think, like you mentioned a really key pieces, you actually have to feel safe in order to be able to to connect with play. That's right. Yes, no one's like playing while they're like feeling dangerous. Right. If you think about like a roller coaster, that's about as close as you're gonna get, or skydiving, which I will never do unless I had to. I just can't a good plan for I just I just can't get there.

I just can't get there. But but but the point is is that like that's the closest we can get to playing with danger, right, because there's that safety there. Um and then dorsal or red right red when you mix red and green together where you have safety with im mobilization. That's called spooning, hugging, meditation, sleeping, right, love, make or if you're a woman and you're pregnant, you have to be immobilized at periods of time because it's

like it slows you down. Obviously you're making good life, um so. But when you have read by itself, that's when you get dissociations, to have siddle ideation, all that type of stuff. So the goal is to bring our green parts are ventral parts. Are you call it your higher self, your heart rate variability, your ventral vehicle system, your soul, whatever you wanna call it, to the other parts. And the problem is they don't know about each other.

They feel like separate parts. And then within red, yellow and green, we have different parts of our personality that fracture off. So like everybody has multiple personalities, and the thing is they don't know about each other. Right, if you really want to go for a goal, but then you're doubting it, those are polarized parts of your personality, and so we want to really start to introduce them to each other. And that's what integration is all about,

which is you don't really heal trauma. You integrate it um. But yeah, I don't think I'm I think I'm babbling a little bit here. No you're not. Actually, this is probably one of the clearest explanations of the nervous system and the way I didn't. I guess I'm doing it without understanding of bringing the green to these different parts and like you said, introducing them. But no, that was honestly, that was so clear. That was like, no, yeah, no,

it seemed it was very approachable. Because it can be so complicated. It can't It can sound really complicated. So when someone uncomplicates it for you, you're like, yes, I can, I can digest that. That feels good. Good. I always worry about being too complex, So I'm happy to hear that, and you will be happy to know that. After a super quick break, we'll be back with bore masking kids.

Welcome back, my friends. We were just discussing all the different ways our nervous system impacts so many areas of our bodies. You know, the body is so interesting because I know for my self, I've spent, like I said, a lot of time and denial, a lot of time

ejecting from my body being in my head. But first off, why has it taken us so damn long to like awakened to the fact that the body is a part of this, Because, like I said, I've done so much work in the last eight years, and it's I'm just now starting to get that feeling thing that happens, like the sensations and you know, the somatic piece of it is so key and it's so uncomfortable. Oh, it's so I'm sure it can be. I'm sure can be. Yeah, And I think that's the part I'm gonna answer your question.

But I'm gonna say something first. That's why when people start doing trauma work, if they don't understand how their nervous system works, and they don't know they can go to red and come back or go to yellow and come back right, they get stuck there because that's that's the trauma response. And she's public about this so I can say this, which is a real honor. So recently

I had the privilege of working with Jessica Man. She was on the stand for three days three days in the Harvey Weine scene trial and it's her testimony that is the reason why he's behind bars. And she she She is a force of light. She is a badass. She is such an incredible human being. Um. And what's amazing is that before working with me again she's been public about this, is that you know, she worked with a therapist and ended up not going so well and

it wasn't it wasn't her fault. It was not her fault. The therapist had such a stigma around handling trauma that it was like so scary for the therapist, right, that disregulated the client, right, And so like for me, working with trauma and the regressing people is just like pouring water, Like I can do it, like really good at it, and we normalize it. And that's the point is that I think even the industries have this emotional phobia. I'm like,

oh god, you're outside the window of tolerance. It's like like for me, like if if a client's like, oh my god, I want to kill myself, right, I'm gonna be like, thank you, welcome to the party. Let's talk about why you would do that. Let's let's talk about it. Why would you do that? Why would that make sense? Right? Um?

And it normalizes things. And actually when someone says something like that, most people freak out, which then pushes that part back into their psyche says you're not welcome here, when really, when someone says something like that, it's because they're looking for help, right, that's what they want, right, And so we just want to really normalize whatever the heck. I don't know if I can say that, whatever the thing, yeah, whatever whatever the fox, something someone says, we want to

normalize what they're saying. Remember one time when a client one of our retreats who was having a psychosis because we did a trauma regression and he thought he was Jesus for a moment and he came up to me. He goes, Maston, I am Jesus Christ, right, And most people might be like, this guy is freaking out. I just went like, oh my god, we have been waiting for you to return. How are you? Where have you been right? And he's like, no, no, Maston, it's me,

it's me. And it broke the psychosis, right because I went right into agreement and we coundered down and took care of him and got medical treatment. He was fine, right, But like most people don't treat it that where they're just having a psychotic break. We need to, like you know, and yes, you have to take care of it. We have people in our our retreats that can take care of things like that happens very rarely. Even if it does,

we're gonna handle because it's just an emotion. It's always it's just emotion, right, So I think the reason why it's taken so long it's actually interestingly in because if you look at evolution, right, evolution and how species of evolved human beings at least evolutionarily not necessary behavior, but certainly by anatomy, are the most advanced creatures on the planet. I think dolphins are probably the most advanced creatures on the planet, but we we have a really great, powerful anatomy.

And if you look at like the lowest level reptile and fish and stuff like, all the way up to us. Now, an emotion has not only been preserved as uh species have gotten more complex, it's multiplied, meaning there are more receptors the higher up you get the evolutionary ladder for emotion.

There's more opiate receptors, there's more dopamine receptors, there's more endocannabinitary receptors, right, which means nature thinks emotion is really valuable, right, um, Like there's something in that, right, So it's really interesting that like nature has basically said, guys, emotions really important, and then they cart comes around like I think therefore I am right. It's like, thanks man, I appreciate that, right, um.

And And it's taken a long time for a lot of reasons, mostly because we've come out of survival mode as a human race. A lot of humans are still in survival mode, but we're getting better at it. And I look at what's happening today, both in the context of the social movements that are happening that need to happen, but also the personal awakenings that are happening. It's actually a privilege to have these happening right now because if you even think, like years ago, like we weren't in

a place where these things could happen. There was no internet, there was not enough there wasn't enough abundance, there wasn't enough connection. And like basically what we're saying is these old traumatic patterns are no longer useful for revolution, right, the patterns of racism, misogyny, patriarchy, colonialism, um, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. Like these things are no longer necessary, but before they

were the power structures that ran the world. So you're seeing what we're seeing an evolutionary leap um into but nature has already given us which is prioritizing emotion. But we haven't quite caught but that yet because of things like money, power and prestige and stuff like that. But it's we're breaking through. And this generation, the generation X and Z, they're gonna be amazing. I can't imagine what their kids are gonna be like in terms of this

type of stuff. Right, Um, But it's taken so long. Because it's taken so long, I don't know how to say it. And also it's because we didn't know. Like all the research that everyone's quoting now is like new, it's brand new. It's like maximum years old. It takes twenty years for research to get into the mainstream. So that's all new, and the and the social milieu or

environment is ready for it too. And so so the body, I mean, really here we are, like you said, talking about so much about the mind, but the body is

where we have to ultimately begin. Is that what you would say, there's really no way to improve mental brain health without improving body health first, right, yeah, and that's also I mean, I guess if you it's also physical, and you know where we can start to see the most and feel the most improvement before we can't like just dive into our brains and be like oh yeah that that neuropathways all of a sudden linking, like we

actually can start to see things in the physical realm. Yeah, and well, and I felt my clients that brain becomes body. It's all one thing. It's not like they're separate, right, it's one system. But but brain becomes body, and um, you know, I sometimes get pushed back for people who don't have the latest research, which is okay, um, but but yeah, I mean, like the simplest that, the simplest analogy is simple, simple, simple, right, is like try to

have a positive thought when you're hungover. Mm hmm. It's not gonna happen, right, it's not gonna happen. Right. If I came in at like five o'clock in the morning, was all right, yeah, let's go, we're gonna go for hyro and for a walk. We're gonna make the day great.

And like you're hungover or you did that to me, both of us are probably like fuck you, right, But if the night before you had a nice easy dinner with digestive enzymes and alkalinity, and you're hydrated, and you've got nice seven eight hours of sleep, and you went to bed early and you slept well in the right temperature, and then you probably up before five if that was the case, and you'd have a great mental state because

your body is in a good state. Right. That's the simplest analogy I can I can bring to like why the body is so important, and trauma lives in our fascia, immune system, endocrine system, and nervous system. It lives everywhere, right, and the vegas nerve goes everywhere. Um, it literally goes

pretty much the whole like torso up. And so sometimes when people have all these chronic health issues, they think they are these multisymptomatic issues, but just one symptom, which is like downregulated vegel tone that shows up in different parts of the body because the vegas nerve attaches everywhere. So yeah, you want to focus somatically in the body.

And the world's best functional medicine doctors, you know, they're gonna do your lipid profile, They're gonna look at your inflammation, see reactive protein, they might get to e g. Your brain scan. Those are all great, but the most cutting edge functional functional medicine doctors know that with every chronic health issue that is a correlated, if not cause, chronic

emotional issue as well. Um, and they're paired together. And what happens is it's not that like your emotions gave you cancer or whatever and demetriosis like whatever the thing is. But when you have a disregulated emotional body, your immune system gets disregulated, your endocrine nervous symsis regulated, and chronic illness will show up in areas where you are most susceptible. Got it, does that make sense? So it's not like it's your fault, but it's like the cancer will find

the area where your immune system is the weakest. Okay, we're gonna metaticize here, right, and there's like a reason why it's there. Right. So I'm not saying it's just about you do the emotional work and you cure cancer. But if you're not doing the emotional work on your cancer journey or any chronic health journey, it's not a complete it's not a complete treatment plan either. So it's it's very profound and the same thing is true for

mental health disorders. Good down the list, right, that's so interesting. Yeah, well, since we're talking about trauma, what are if people are out there going, oh, I don't think I have that much trauma in my life. You know, what are some of the symptoms that show up? I always This is

a great question. Um, okay, So anxiety, depression, overthinking, procrastination, not being able to complete goals, relationship not going to like being like well maintained relationships, not knowing how to ask for help, um, always giving too much help, being a non reciprocal relationships where you're either giving or taking more than the other person. Um. That's just a few things. And obviously if you have a diagnosis and that there's like basically three or four diagnosis in the d s

M that are meant that are medical. The rest are basically different ways. The nervous system gets disregulated because of emotional trauma. Um. And uh, if you have any diagnosis basically from the d s M, there's probably trauma there too. Um. So yeah, basically all that stuff, yea, all of it when it comes to generational trauma. Um, how does that

work in our overall Trump trauma blueprint. Well, um, yeah, so the fancy term is called epigenetics, which is basically like how our genes turned on and off based on our environment. Right, And that makes sense because like we adapt to our environment to survive, right, And the thing about the genetics is that we know it's very clear.

Like if you look at like there's some studies on Holocaust survivors, their studies on the Civil War, um, families that had like someone died, and there's so many different studies. I can send your links afterwards if you want, and like like things like methylation pathways change based on what

trauma the family had beforehand. Right, So like how you methylate, which is like a very important process in the body that can really mess you up or really set you straight with all kinds of different things, um like gets turned on or offered or upregular, down regular based on your family's history. Right, And think about this, right, this is when I forget this out. It was like so trippy. So you your mother had you, but the egg was

made in her mother. Yes, so I was actually carried yeah, right, so it's like whoa, that's like whatever, So that's mind blowing. There's all kinds of data to suggest that when a baby is in the womb. There's a whole field of psychology called Perry natal psychology, which is like basically in

the womb, right, Perry natal psychology. And what it's amazing, right, Um, And what we know is that, you know, information is passed through the child, through the mother, through the blood and through the hormones of whatever she's experiencing the child's experiencing, which makes sense because it's preparing the child for the

environment they're gonna be born into, right. Um. And so all these things leave imprints over time, and they become these patterns that just get passed down over time both um, both in the family system but also societally. Right, because generational trauma looks like racism too, Like why are we racist in America? We're racist because America was founded upon a principle that we cannot have economic prosperity without black

people being one down to white people. That's why we're racist, right, And like we're messing with that, which needs to be messed with, that power dynamic right now. But that just gets passed down because it has so much momentum culturally. And then what happens is in America. It's so sad. Even more than your genetic code, your zip code determines

your health outcomes. And there are studies have been released that show the people who only live a few miles apart, depending on the affluence in those communities, have like thirty forty year life expectancy differences based on zip code. Right, that's right, and that just becomes institutionalized, right, and then it becomes normalized, and then enough time passes and people think this is how it's always been. Yeah, that's my favorite. No,

this is just how it is. You know. That's I know for my own self, I'll have trauma responses or you know, UM nervous system just regulation to things that I know I haven't had that experience, like, but though I know it's somewhere in my family and that you know that, I feel like I carry a lot of that UM and there has been I think that was a really big aha moment for me to go, oh, so I don't have it doesn't have to be my own personal experience to still have that. Oh yeah, where way,

where did you learn that? Did you just figure that out or did you learn that somewhere? I just I think I kind of just been up. I mean, I've read a lot about it, but I before that I was open. I just kind of it was an aha moment of like, oh wait, I don't have to Yeah I don't. These aren't my experiences, but why am I? So why does this freak me out so much? Because

I've never had this experience before. So yeah, I think I'm just super sensitive to ship So I yeah, I just you know, I've I've I've always been very open and aware two things. But and I think that can sometimes. Yeah, it's very it's just very uncomfortable. Oh well, yeah, it's sure can be. And you know, well, what's interesting about that is there's a modality you probably know about it. If not, I'll be happy to tell you about it,

but you probably know. It's called internal family systems. Dr Richard Schwartz created it, and like, I wish I want to be a Richard Swarts when I grow up. That dude is just like so awesome. He's so awesome. I don't know a lot about it, but I do know of it, and it is bad that guy, Like I want to I just I want to be like a version of him when I grow up because he's just he's just such a wise person. But anyway, it's a

long story. I'm not gonna go into what what i f S is, but it basically helps you understand like the multiple parts of your of your of your personality and how they get in the way and how they collaborate, how they can start to work together or not. It's a very valuable modality. But the cool thing about Schwartz is that they do like studies and they document their

clients because he knows I do all that stuff. And in i f S, like if you have a part come up, like if you have like anxiety come up or depression come up, you like literally can take your hand, like go there and like talk to it and you can say, like is this mine or someone else's right? And the part will tell you if it's yours or

someone else's right. That sounds weird and woo woo, but it's actually based on a lot of efficacy and celinical data doesn't come to surface yet what you're talking about as a documented phenomenon in the clinical and settings. It's amazing which we go of course, we go straight to the mind or like, oh, I'm totally making this shut up. But you're not well you are you are you are, but but for a good reason, for a good reason, Like it's it's it's unconscious, Like what the what is

creativity you're making? Shut up? That's what make shut up? What is channel you're making? Shut up? Well, this is the stuff that's coming up, that's in there, right, So yeah, make it up, but don't discount the fact that you made it up because it's there for a reason, right, Like that's about trusting your intuition, your body, your semantics. But I think what you mean is I'm just kind

of inventing it. Like it it just kind of came out of nowhere, right, And like the body doesn't work right, the nervous system will always present something that's there for you to work through and it's valid. Um. And like for me, I don't think I've ever said this publicly. So this is the first time. Um, I ran into some major problems in twenty in my body that would have happened whether or not COVID happened. So lets speak

clear about that. I couldn't walk for six months because my feet were so especially my left side, my left ankle. It was just so much pain. And I won't get into the story because the very long story. But bottom line is I was all this somatic work and I had this major fossil release and a flood of emotion came back, like thousands of memories. Literally, all these memories came back of abandonment, and um, it was really intense and it was all from the same pattern over and

over and over again. Right, and then I held my foot. I talked to my foot, and I said, if I were you, I would not want to move forward either, if we're gonna be a banded like that. Right. What was interesting is like a month or two later, I was like deep into physics and deep into my family history. And my family history is I'm gonna do put so I'm going to the du Pont company. But they make like kevlar and nylon and all this type of stuff. I felt really called to connect with like other members

of my family. And I found some family members online who are my age and one of them and because the think about to do Pont family, I've always noticed like we made gunpowder for the French Indian War, for the Civil War, thank mostly was for the North, thank God. Right, But what my family member told me was DuPont made? This is so heavy. DuPont made the plutonium used in

Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Right, And I've always felt this like connection to the Manhattan Project and like not a good way, and like I felt like this my whole life, this like I'm making up for something. I felt this my whole life like. And then when I was like I put it all together, I go, oh my god. I talked to my foot again and I put the other like my foot didn't want one more DuPont fucking up the world literally like it was like it was like

no more, no more. And here I am working, Like why is this white guy six five working on trauma? Like holy cow? Like I feel like I'm on the I'm on the oppressor side, right, And of course, you know, I'm happy World War two turned out the way that they did. But that's not the point. When millions of people died, you know, as a result of rect result of my family and our influences. Um. But when I made peace of that, all these things started to unfold

in really beautiful ways. Right, that's not mine. I didn't I didn't make the nuclear bomb. I didn't make gunpowder. But that's so in my cells in my DNA, like my grandfather on my great grandfather on back then five back to the founder of DuPont. We're all scientist businessmen, right, which is really trippy to think about. But yeah, so it shows up on all sides, the oppressed and the oppressors, right because I feel like my family was a big part of the of the not so good side of

the oppression of things, right right. Um, so yeah, it's there. And but once I, once I got in touch with that and cleared it was like really good. Um, and I work with it every day now. So yeah, generational trauma is no joke for sure, No, that is it's yeah. To me, that stuff is fascinating. And I love that you're talking about, um normalizing you know, everything, basically bringing

things to the forefront. I was in a therapy session the other day and I was the hate came to the forefront, like really, and and it's you know, I grew up in as a Southern Baptist that was like you were a good girl, you know, like you you have to love everything, and I'm all about I'm all about the love. But hate is something that I especially when it comes to hating the love object, the parents, or whatever it may be that you know birthed us

into this world. It's just something you don't touch. And for me, just being able to speak it, just being able to bring it to the forefront was so powerful to start allowing that to dissolve, like you're saying, like to finding those pieces that are that are so hidden in the back of our psyche, like because we are one way or the other, we're told that that was not appropriate, you know that that we don't touch those feelings. Um,

I think it's so important and I'd like it. You know, you're just talking about this with your foot and I think for me, you know, having that experience the other day of just being able to to honor what their true feeling that was there, um, started to to open up things. And I think, you know, I think people uh either you're talking about you know, I'm really kind of normalizing our emotional landscape. I think that is so so important. It's important, and what you're describing, by the

way is so profound. So what's starting to open up? And like what did you realize? Just so curious, I mean I know that you're asking the questions. Yeah, no, please feel free. First off, it took me about ten minutes Steven go there, like to be able to say, oh, yeah, this is truly hate recognizing also like, why what that is keeping me from because you know, for me, I think love in my past, very early on, was experienced

as pain. Yeah yeah, and so yeah, so um that that other charge um has kept me from from that pain based kept me from loving because that's so painful, that's right. Why And you know I have a cross on my arm just so we're clear, it says be love, I won't. You can see it, okay, which to me is like the basic message of actual Christianity. Um. But what you're what you're describing is so so Christian. And what I mean by that is and I can sern

myself a Christian mystic, so, which is super clear. But if you look at like especially the Old Testament messages like love me, fear me, and that's called an attachment theory, disorganized attachment where the source of my love is also the source of danger. That's a mixed message. How can I love and feel dangerous at the same time? Right? And Christianity is full of disorganized attachment, um, except except

for Jesus. Right, when Jesus comes in and you actually read the red letters, the actual red letters right, not when Paul said later who never met Jesus, right, but like actual red letters right in the original airmake that they're written in right. The beatitude is in a surmount amount. If you get that, like, you're good. Like Jesus was an attachment expert. He talks about having heart love in your heart. That's called secure attachment. That's called a regulator

nervous system. When Jesus says we're two or three are gathered there, I am in their myths. That's called corregulation, which Polybigo theory says is mandatory for our survival. Right, like all that ever said anything about gay, black, white knight. You never said nothing about none of that stuff. Right, And the problem is, I mean, got on how far down in the rabbit hole and I go. But if you, if you do the research. There's a book called the

Gnostic Gospels by Harvard researcher Lane Pigles. What she uncovers is that Jesus intended to pass down the church to Mary Magdalen, and Peter got jealous and basically made that uh not happen, and right there with Peter is the beginning of the patriarchy of the church right there um.

And the other problem with Christianity is that there was no plan for how to spread the Gospel, so all the disciples disagreed about how to do it from the beginning, which is why there's so many sects of Christianity right. So um, for me, when you talk about like you know, like love and hate and all those things going together, that's like, that's that's a very spot on sort of like fundamentalist christian which I grew up with as well.

Bringing But when you really look at like the core message of Jesus, which is love, right and like let the first without sins basically cast a stone, right, Um, what you're saying, like, you have to be honest with yourself, and there's a reason why, and I would I would probably say the word hate, would probably you know, I would probably put language around that that might be like

really really significant and justified anger. Justified anger. And the reason why people are angry is because there's a need that wasn't met and that was made invisible. And because that need was made invisible, you don't feel seen or heard but I have to love somebody like that doesn't That's not how this works, right, That's not how this works. That's that's a total um as, a total disordinized response.

Come here, go away? Was dangerous is safe. And what you're coming into is like actual Christianity, which is called love. That's all it is. It's just love. It's very simple, right, It's actually all about love. Um, love your neighbor. But here's the problem with Christianity. Love your neighbor as yourself. If you don't love yourself, you're gonna suck at loving your neighbor. Right, Yeah, I mean I don't even know do we even know what love is if we don't

love ourselves first? And which part of yourself? You have so many parts? Well, that's that's the thing. Let's you know, let's love the one who hates. Let's love the one who you know. But I always I get that as a concept, and I think that it is it is the ultimate concept of loving all of these parts of us. But like sometimes I wonder we go back down to the body. It's like what does that feel like? Like really, what does that feel like? And we're going to dive

into that pretty deep question. Right after this a very quick break Hello Loves. We are with Mask and Kip and we're discussing what it means to truly love all the different complicated parts that make us our holy human selves. It feels like Catharsis where you just not cry sometimes. It feels like like sometimes you have body shakes and stuff like that. Looking back on things when I as a manager, like and now understanding, like I work with

a lot of performers and stuff like that. You know, it's very interesting how performers work because it's almost that they have like this, like you know, multi like three or four or five different emotional states that become these personalities of their performance personality, right, and they say, okay, these three, four, five or six are okay, but these

seventeen are not? Right? Yes, complete right? Um? And because that won't sell the tickets, That won't you know, go, that won't be the hit song, that won't whatever, you know the press. I mean, we would work the Dixie Chicks in two thousand four and they talked about George Bush and like what was on their heart and boom right, like oh my god, so like that part obviously wasn't welcome in the environment for their career right at that time,

now that their trendsetters now. But like the whole point though, is that like performers get the message that like these specific parts of your personality are acceptable, and this stuff will like sunk everything up, not just for you, but for the team, for the management of the agency, for label,

for the publisher, like all that type of stuff. Right, what happens is the core of magic experiences that you're not being seen, heard, or known for like all your parts, not just the parts that are shining or or cute or beautiful or whatever. And the core the goal is to get to know those parts and made them welcome with yourself. And when you talk about I mean performance, like we're all performing basically in some way. It's not

just you know, mine is extremely magnified. And I think that's why I started this podcast, That's why I've I've started to use my voice in different ways because really, and by the way, like what happens to me before I come on a podcast is terrifying. I have terror, like yes, yeah, and I've never had stage fight, And since this pandemic, since being at home, I have started to have this experience when before I start singing. When

I opened my mouth, it usually goes away. But like it's it's so interesting that the I think why it's happening for me on stage is because I'm becoming more human, Like I'm I'm inviting I'm inviting all of myself to the party, and honestly, it's so uncomfortable, like because you know, like you're saying, there's there's a there's the mask that

we've you know, presented to the world. And the more we start to take that off, um, you know, it's it becomes very vulnerable to like I said, minds magnified. It's not just like I'm being vulnerable with um, you know, a few of my friends and my family. It's like I'm being more vulnerable with the world and therefore there you know, what can come back at me is uh

is can be painful, big time time. And so I think when we talk about performance, it's not just you know, it's not just the it's not just performers like myself, it's everybody is performing at a certain level. Absolutely well. Yeah, everyone learns very early on, like Okay, what parts of my personality are going to work here and what parts aren't right, um, and and and then the exile the parts that don't work, and part of trauma work is

bringing those parts in the fold. And what's really interesting is, you know, I think personally the best art because there's like that emotional richness and vulnerability, and that's what the best art is is basically honest to therapy. That's basically what it is. Yes, And I don't know about you, but the people I worked with in the past, you know, usually the song that they really needed to write or to or to get on tape, I said, not tools whatever, it is the one of the most scared to do,

oh for sure, for sure. Oh god, yeah. I mean I remember one of my first songs that I wrote, the song called Borrowed, which my husband and I were going through an affair publicly and the whole deal. And I remember like that was the first time I was just so honest. It was it was I remember people telling me that's the most polarizing song, and I'm like, yeah, how do you think it felt inside? But it was a where where I honestly I felt for the first

time I was being truly honest as a performer. And I I think that since then, that's been my journey. And you know, you talk a lot about purpose, which I think is so interesting because I think I've stopped myself from living my own purpose for so long. Like even just with this podcast, it's like I would have never touched this, and it took me so long to do it because I was I was totally afraid of that vulnerability. Yeah, you know, for as much as I used my voice, it's this is a new way of

using my voice. You know, I grew up. I was told not to have opinions, and it's like, no one will buy your record if they don't like your opinion. And it's like, this is breaking through some like serious trauma for myself. But I I, you know, when we are such a big deal and I just think it's so cool you're breaking through like this industry trauma, this family trauma, this like Patrichal trauma, and you're using your voice. That is awesome. And I just don't want I want

you to. I don't want to rush by that because that's just such a big deal. You thank you, thank you. It's so uncomfortable and every time I get step up here, you know, to do this, it's painful, but I also know like I forgot who it is basically saying like choose your hard you know, and it's like this is you have a choice ultimately at the end of the day.

And like I would, the pain of not growing ultimately got to uncomfortable for me, Like it that would that hurt more than being uncomfortable and doing the thing that was uncomfortable, you know. But I'm growing in that process. So wait, so have you? I'm so curious have you taken this new found part of your voice and honesty? Like are you writing? Are you doing music from that

place now like during quarantine stuff like that? And what's that? Like? Oh, it's a it's amazing and there's a real calling I think for me and very specifically what I put out into the world, like from a deeper loving place, a very conscious place of what I'm putting in the world and the music I was I'm in the studio right now actually recording a record, and so the music where it's coming from. I mean, I just sat back and listened to something the other day and I just started bawling.

I got cry all the time because it just it's so purposeful, you know, And and what whether whoever, whoever's ears, it ends up in you know, great, but when you're when you're living from you know, that purpose, which I, by the way, have to remind myself of daily because of nervous system disregulation, and it's like all of a sudden you can freeze and be like, I can't do this anymore. Totally, yeah, totally that purpose piece, Like I think my interestingly enough, I you know, I was born

with a gift. I always thought that my my voice was my purpose. And my husband and I were talking about this the other night and he's like, that's just a tool. I was like, that's so true. I confused for so long, I confused my tool with my purpose, and my purpose really started to blossom. I think in the last maybe two or three years was I able to finally start to go, oh, I I can I feel comfortable ish enough to start scaring the ship out

of myself. Basically, so good, Basically that is amazing, you know, it's so incredible. I just I love I just love what you're saying, because you know, I guess, as you know, when I was doing a lot of management and then now I work with like you know, I work with a long a wide variety of people. But when I work with people who are very successful externally, um, there's there's not always, but a lot of times there's a

lot of disregulation. And I always find so fascinating for you know, people who are listening to this, they're like, oh my god, Leanne Rhymes, what are you talking about? Like you're living your purpose just now, like what we're doing before. I can't imagine what's next. But I just love that that's because it's for you, is what sounds like.

It's really about you and what you want. It's not about the external pressures and the external expectations, which there are so many of when you're an artist, and especially that I think the worst thing sometimes that can happen to ours they become successful, because has then it's like funk, Now I had to recreate that, I do what I did again again. There's like all the stress and pressure and sales and all type of stuff. Um, and it's amazing.

But I think the best artists are the ones who are willing to fail and who reinvent themselves all the time. But I come to the honesty, and it's so hard to get there, So I'm just kind of blown away. You only really felt personal last couple of years. I just I mean, I'm just kind of mind blown by that. But it also needs a lot of sense. Yeah, and I'm excited to hear like what's next in terms of what you've what comes from this place too. It's going to be so I'm so curious now. Thank you. Well,

it's so interesting. I've relate to you so much because you know, like you said, you went from the industry into being a functional coach. I so appreciate growth, and I know where I've come out of. I know where I'm at, and I know I have so much more that I'd like to to grow into. But I know where I've come out of, and I find that this work is so important and not just not just for someone like me, but for everybody like who wants to who wants to no joy in their life. That's right.

I find your work really really helpful. So thank you. Thank you for sharing your wisdom here. Of course, Oh my god, i feel like I've met like a long lost friend. I know, I love it. Since you were in the music industry, we do have to know. I'm sure you have some great music that you're into, so my holy five, What are your top five songs? And why? Well, these are my top five songs right now because trying to do when when I was asked my top five songs of all time, I was like, that's impossible. I

just can't do that to the other songs. I just I just it's so impossible, you know. But so these are my top five songs right now. Okay, So a friend of mine just told shared this song with me a couple days ago, and it's by Andy Grammer called wish You pain Um, and it's an amazing song about At first you listened to it and it sounds like

why do you want me to have pain? But it's actually like about breaking through all the pain and the way that he's core, you know, the way he sort of orchestrates it, and the tone and the key that it's in, all the type of stuff and I love this song. It's about growing through the hard stuff, which is really cool that suit string. But wish you, wish you it's hard saying wish you. So Kesha made the list twice. Actually, she's a new song called Chasing Thunder

out right now. I think it's just such a fun kind of like spring Summer song that I'm loving right now, Slacked, Bonder, Got the Gips, Blood always just in, Thunder, always say Dun, always say somethun always says dune, always say some due, always say something. Love it. And then if you haven't seen it, her song Shadow, Okay, cool, but did you see the Ted Talk version of it? Are the ones probably never gotten off? So good to Shine out of my side, out of my boots, guys, out of my good,

so good, to your darkness, out of my dead. But then Shadow, it's kind of like her like triumphant, like almost like dust off your shoulder, like I'm done with this ship, like I'm gonna live in my truth, and I just want I just love that song, Okay. And then um, oh, yeah, so there's another. There's a group of artists called Beautiful Chorus. I'm not sure. Yeah, so I love Beautiful Chorus, And I've actually been listening to their song breathing In, which is actually a very short song.

You know it creat it great? Yeah, yeah, you sound sound great singing. And then um, there's another song and I think it's I don't know if it's a new song or it's a remix of an old song. But my friend's Tevi Oky just dropped a song um with Kiara and Rob com Is called used to Be and it got me in all the fields. Don't care, You're gonna now they got me in all the field. Government's about trying to see that your real self. Um, but you're kind of hidden in this kind of darkness. It's

just it's just such a good song. I love that. I love that some of these songs. I love the artists I find that we are Sometimes once something gets put into the creative world, I feel like we all kind of like get fed from it in a way, like all of a sudden you'll start sing people right, some learns things and you're like, oh, we're all feeding off of this kind of conscious consciousness at this moment in time and creating it, you know. So yeah, that's

so fascinating. Love it. Yeah. And then my next favorite song is whatever you released next, because I can't wait to listen to it. Seriously, I can't. I'm so curious now excited about it. Thank you you go check out I. I've released a song not long ago called throw My Arms around the World, UM, which is the first kind of song off the new record yeah, I can check that out. Exciting. Well, that is so so exciting to hear. And that's awesome, And thank you for having me. This

has been such a joy. Thank you so much. It's so nice to meet you. Thank you so much. Hi, And that wraps up this episode of Holy Human. Thank you all so much for spending your time with me as always, and I want to hear from you too, so feel free to share your comments and your thoughts with me in the comments section wherever you're listening. And if you think this episode might help someone else that you know, please pass it along. I'll see you next time.

On the next episode of Holy Human, you'll meet the incredibly inspirational force of nature known as Jeffrey Marsh. They'll join me to share their unique yet universal perspective on gender, unconditional love, acceptance, and so much more. And you, guys, I cannot tell you how much I love them. They are insanely incredible. I can't wait to share this episode with you. Holy Human with Me Leanne Rhymes is a

production of I Heart Radio. You'll find Holy Human with Leanne Rhymes on the I Heart app Apple podcast or wherever you get the podcast that matter Most to you,