¶ Understanding Assertiveness vs. Passive-Aggressive Behavior
Welcome to the Wholehearted Podcast , where we believe the life you long for is accessed through the heart . I'm here today . My name is Joel Johnson and I'm with Shannon White .
Now Shannon's going to help me to understand , and help us to understand , what is the difference between passive-aggressive , aggressive-aggressive , assertive , just being passive , being aggressive and then kind of being passive afterwards . All of those things and more . She's going to help us to distill them down to an understandable level .
Hi , Shannon , Thanks for doing this , Thanks for being here today .
Yes , I'm excited about this topic . I think it's so important . In fact , it's the second session I have with all teens and children , because I think it's that important for them to get a foundation for this .
That's . That's wild . Like you teach teenagers this . There are some 60 year olds right Like , who are needing to learn this and beyond , 60 and beyond , and you're helping young people to be able to do that . What do you ? What do you tell a teen or a youngster ?
Yeah , well , I think the 60 year olds came from a generation of you're seen and not heard , which was really detrimental for a lot of people . It was a lot about respect your elders all things that are good , but also with a balance , that we need to allow people to have a voice and say how they really feel . Stand up for themselves right .
We've all had that boss where we have to have that really hard conversation with , or a teacher . So when I work with kids , we have this little worksheet where there's a wimpy little mouse , an angry monster , and a friendly person , and so the wimpy mouse is passive . That's somebody who just lets things pass on by . They're quiet , they don't say how they feel .
They might pout and whine , but they're never going to stand up for themselves . Until they learn , hopefully . Angry monster is aggressive . Those are the bullies in school , the people that are just mean and always going to , you know , respond in anger , maybe be disrespectful to the teacher .
The friendly person is a picture of somebody standing , you know , assertively with their hands on their hips , but also smiling . It's being kind when you're standing up for yourself and we take examples from their real life . I usually do two with friends , like being left out being told a mean comment . Then I take it to a teacher .
What if the teacher lost your homework ? That's a really hard one because you've worked so hard on it . Would you just want to get a zero and not say anything ? You wouldn't want to be disrespectful and say yeah you , teacher , lost my homework , so could you say something like Miss so ?
And so I'm really worried that I you don't have that , because I worked so hard on it . Would you mind double checking ? And I worked with a child just yesterday saying the person who didn't do their homework is not likely going to go to a teacher and say , would you mind double checking , cause I'm concerned you don't have it right .
That's conscientiousness , and so even if the teacher says sorry , I really don't have it , usually hopefully the teacher is going to say you know what , thank you for talking to me , bring it , bring it to my attention .
I'll give you an extra two days to to get it back into me , or something like that , whereas if you just let it go and are passive and get a zero , then the teacher's just going to assume you didn't do it , and that's not good .
Yeah , yeah , no , I think those three visuals are so helpful , especially I'm . I'm a visual person , but like we can respond as a quiet mouse , you know , and be passive .
We can kind of react and fly off the handle and lose our composure is a nice way to say it and then , or we can be that individual with our hands on our hips , with a smile on our hips , with a smile on our face , confidently , assertively moving ahead .
And not only do we want to learn assertiveness , but we run into these three people for the rest of our life . You know , it's just not , it's just not in grade school Sometimes we have to say , you know , to a boss that acts as a monster .
The only way that you're going to , you know , speak and have any kind of influence with someone who loses their composure , flies off the handle , is to be assertive , because if you're passive you're basically agreeing with his potentially skewed or her potentially skewed perspective .
So assertiveness is really like if you want to win in life , it is not to be the monster nor the mouse .
Right and then right , Like it's to be right the bullies or the the mean boss learns . I can get away with that with Joel .
I know he'll never say anything and that's not good either , because then that leads to a reputation where I tell kids , yeah , we're going to go to high school with these same people and they're going to remember in third grade if you were really mean to them , Hopefully they forgive you . But things we do stick with people , so we have to remember .
It does make a difference .
Yeah , so so help us Like . I know a lot of people in my life . Their , uh , responsive choice is not really passive , but it's passive with a little bit of like hidden monster mixed in .
Maybe you can what would you call that ? Yeah , passive aggressiveness is very toxic and you would think of that as somebody who you know is mad or upset , but not saying anything . Right ? Maybe the classic wife of yeah , nobody .
Nobody has ever experienced anyone like that in their life before , I'm sure yeah , um , it's relationship .
And even you know women often want you to just know we're guilty of that . So we'll just say , I'm fine , it's fine . But you know , and you men are likely to say , oh okay , I guess I'm just paranoid and thinking something's wrong . We have to do the work of genuinely what I call showing up and saying look , I am upset , can we talk about it ?
But that's a skill that's learned .
I always say the two things I want parents to focus on the very most is giving their children a voice to be assertive and validating how they feel when they do , and then healthy coping skills , if we have those two things , we're going to be healthy adults , I promise you , because those are things we come into contact every day .
Say those skills one more time , or say those components one more time .
Yeah , being assertive , and I think , even before learning to be assertive , you have to validate your children's emotions , which means I hear you , I see you , it matters to me , right ? So just pointing out , you know , when they're having that tantrum at three years old and their fists are clenched and they're mad , you can point out .
I see that you're so angry and that matters to me . Now we may set a boundary , like we can't hit or we can't throw things , but first we're telling them we see them , right .
Any marital conflict escalates when we feel like our spouse doesn't get it from our perspective , as soon as they can say you know what , when I put myself in your shoes , I get where you're coming from . That matters to me . Let's all of a sudden we deescalate , right ?
So you know and that was a huge part of your story for people who have read your books right , you had multiple times in ministry where you had to choose to be assertive , sometimes at the cost of your job . But remember , healthy people respect healthy boundaries .
So a healthy person isn't going to hear you be assertive in a kind way and be respectful , and they should not get mad . They should say maybe you've given me a lot to think about . Let's talk about this when I've had some time to think about it .
Right , but if they lash out like that angry monster because you have been assertive or created a boundary , then we know we're working for an unhealthy person .
Yeah , and you and you can say , okay , I'm not crazy . There's unhealth on the other side . You know , I think for men I was just processing this while you were sharing that and I think for men we're given kind of two ways , especially in this confusing culture with gender identity and what is a man supposed to be ?
You know , so many times I hear from guys they're like okay , so I'm supposed to be the knight in shining armor , I'm supposed to be tough , I'm supposed to be impenetrable , the rock . But I need to be kind , nice , domesticated , understanding , sensitive , and to be both .
Is it doesn't come , we don't come wired out of the box , as most men don't come wired out of the box navigating both of those well , and I think so . Now what we see is we see a lot of mice and we see a lot of monsters .
So there's kind of these two avenues that a lot of men take and I tell the guys , at least in my circle , you don't want to be nice . And the reason why I'm saying you don't want to be nice is because nice I would associate more with passivity . You don't want to be passive .
And even in the biblical context , the Jewish scriptures , the very first book in the Bible , genesis refers to Adam and he's there . And there's the snake and the forbidden fruit , right Of the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil , and you have Eve , who Eve assertively takes the apple , takes a bite , and it says she passes it to her husband .
He's standing there , he is not in a position , he's definitely not the monster right then and there , but he's not assertively , you know , taking the shovel and cutting the snake's head off .
You know , there there is this or standing up to his wife and saying we shouldn't be doing that yes , and he's kind of along for the ride at that moment .
And so being a nice guy is not the highest level of character that men should aspire to . I think assertiveness is that level where we're able to respond . We're able to not react , not have to get our way by being passive , and a lot of men do . They just are like I know you're angry , you're acting weird , you're passive , aggressive right now .
But I'm not going to dive into this , first of all because emotions are scary to me . As I speak as a man , most of the time we're not emotionally connected ourselves , nor have we been expected to be emotionally connective . We can be angry , and that's about it . You can be angry and mad , and that's about culturally , about what you're supposed to be .
But the men I speak to , I'm always encouraging them to push into their courage , push into their nobility , their noble heart , which is not a mouse . It is definitely having the hard conversation , but doing it in a way that exudes kindness . And kindness and meekness is not weakness , Meekness is strength .
Under control is having a sword in your sheath , but knowing when you know you need to pull it out and use it in the metaphor , or knowing when you just need to put your hand on it a little bit and say you know if , if we need to get a little assertive here , I'm open to do that little assertive here , I'm open to do that .
And usually that most of the time solves problems just being assertive and showing that you're not going to be passive , You're not going to be afraid , You're not going to fly off the handle and get the reaction maybe they're even looking for .
But when you're able to assertively begin to push into that conversation courageously , it usually ends the disturbance right there . Niceness usually ends up with you being the loser , you not having healthy boundaries , acquiescing when it's inappropriate , instead of that assertive position . What are your thoughts on that ? I know you speak to a lot of men , Shannon .
Yeah , I think we have to define nice . That could be a little confusing because we are taught one of the fruits of the Spirit is kindness . But yeah , I think it gets tricky if it's being approached in a passive way .
¶ Navigating Anger and Communication Patterns
Actually , our sermon on Sunday was exactly about that , this anger that we saw in Jesus , where we know the Bible says in your anger don't sin . So anger isn't the sin . Jesus went into the temple and got very angry when they were using it as a marketplace right and turned over tables .
But he wasn't sinning because he was doing so for a righteous purpose , whereas Peter got very angry and , you know , slash someone's ear off and just like no , no , that's aggressive , we were not going to do that . So yeah , I think it's very important to know there's four main emotions under anger . That spell gift .
It's a gift to know where that's coming from . We call that tending to your heart , yeah , dig into this yeah . Yeah , so guilt , inferiority , fear and trauma . Trauma is defined as a hurt or a wound . So whenever you feel angry and I've done it many times- personally .
Yeah , Say that acronym one more time . Yeah For gift the gift exercise . G is guilt . Say that acronym one more time . Yeah for gift the gift .
Exercise G is guilt , yep , guilt . So we speed and we get pulled over and we're mad at the police officer . We're really feeling guilt , right ? Inferiority being treated less than we deserve often produces anger . Fear can create anger , and then trauma a hurt or a wound .
I had one person one time say I think the only thing that was missing in that acronym is hurt . Until we define trauma as a hurt or a wound , yeah , okay , okay .
So we've got guilt , we've got inferiority , we've got fear and trauma and the T is the trauma or the hurt .
So when someone you know triggers you or steps on or is creating a situation that you have had trauma in the past and it looks different place , different time , but it looks a lot like it's heading in that direction You're going to see a certain group of people . They're going to respond in anger .
Right , and anger is always a secondary emotion , meaning even for a split second . We feel something before that . So what ? we need to do in our anger is pull back and say , okay , what is it that I really felt ? And a lot of times it's two , three or even all four of those emotions at once .
And it is good to know our own story well enough to say , okay , when do I remember feeling that , especially if it's trauma ? And then , okay , that wasn't the police officer's fault . I chose to speak cause I'm in a hurry . I need to you know , be gracious , or just know where that anger is coming from . That's huge .
That's huge Cause I have , um , a lot of my guy friends . We have this discussion and it's like my wife , you know , was telling me don't be so angry .
You kind of talk to the kids in a way , and sometimes that gets confusing , because assertiveness sometimes is treated as anger , like when a man is trying to raise let's just give it a hypothetical you're trying to raise your son up to be a man , right , you're initiating your son .
And there are just sometimes when you're like hey , son , I have asked you 10 times not to throw your socks in the middle of the living room and leave your shoes hanging out , whatever , and you're trying to teach responsibility .
And sometimes that discipline needs to happen quickly and not just always met after a certain amount of time , of course , or a certain amount of times of asking where it doesn't happen , where you need to be assertive and maybe even they need to feel your strength for a moment of like hey , this isn't appropriate behavior , this isn't the culture of our home and we
all have to pitch in , you know to , to . It's not fair to put it all on mom or all on dad or whatever . And so , my guy friends , their anger almost becomes a point of shame for them , because they feel like I am angry about this . I am angry when you backtalk your mom this way and that's not going to happen .
But if you rewind that just a little bit and you dig into that a little bit , my guess is inferiority . He didn't respect me , right .
Yeah .
And fear what fill in the gap . What if ? What if he is like this his whole life ? What if he doesn't respect his wife because I didn't teach him how to pick things ? Up , so we have to be aware of that Now again . Boundaries with children are awesome .
When we've asked them 10 times , we are human and we are going to get frustrated , but I like the idea of a parent trying to always remain the calmest person in the room .
Yeah , yeah , no , no . This is . This is so good , shannon , because I'm always talking to my friend . Our language with with one of my dear friends is did you react or did you respond ? And anger . Did you respond and anger , I think , is a good gift because it oftentimes moves us into action when we would want to stay passive .
I think , though , connecting what you're telling us today to say , okay , let me just self-diagnose . Is this coming from guilt ? Is this coming from inferiority ? Is this anger coming from fear ? Is this anger from inferiority ? Is this anger coming from fear ? Is this anger coming from trauma ?
And this is a situation that I've been in before that has been incredibly hurtful , and I'm going to react out of that . If we can diagnose our anger and say , wow , okay , I'm feeling inferior in this moment , just like you kind of broke it down for us . Or man , I'm feeling afraid for my son , that he is going .
This is going to trickle onto his family , affect my grandkids , you know , in the future and I , there are some things we can deal with now to be a blessing to him in his future , or to her and her future uh , if it's a daughter , and but it will it is such a powerful tool to be able to not react .
If you're saying , okay , I'm afraid of this , I understand that the anger is coming from that . Joel , don't like , don't just react here . Like , know where this is coming from . Now I can respond and we actually . Our anger becomes a gift when it's responded to an action and an assertiveness as well . Okay , you're blowing my mind , shannon , right now .
Well , I'll be transparent and this is one on the daily these days with my nine-year-old girl . I always say everyone warned me about teenagers . No one warned me about seven , eight , nine-year-old girls . They are spicy and sassy and , like we said , probably world leaders , hopefully not felons , but man , it is hard .
And so what I'm dealing with with my daughter is the sass and the tone Every day . It's not what you say , it's how you say it . And when I feel my own heart rate increasing and , you know , blood pressure rising , I do often say okay , what are you most fearful of ? I'm fearful of her not being respectful to adults .
I'm fearful of her being mean to her friends and losing friends . You know it's not okay to talk to people like that . So I do want to hold the boundary , which I've gotten better at saying please try again . And she knows I'm going to say try again until it's more respectful .
But man , oh man , it takes every day those deep breaths to say , and I talked to parents who are a little ahead of me in their journey with teenagers and I'm like is this normal ? What am I doing wrong ? And everyone says keep the faith and keep holding the boundary . Time after time after time , she's going to understand .
But right now she's in that developmental stage of I do have a voice and I do have feelings and I'm learning how to regulate those . But man , it's hard .
Yeah , yeah , maybe , I think maybe let's go through the passive , aggressive , passive aggressive kind of define those . And then I want to give you a hypothetical for every husband who's out there who maybe runs into a passive aggressive moment with their wife and maybe how to engage in that .
Because if you're like me in the beginning , I'm like , well , I don't know what's going on here and you know I need some help to figure that out here and you know I , I , I need some help to figure that out . So will you just take us through the passive , aggressive , aggressive , all of the different things and help us define it one more time ?
So the mouse .
So passive is a wimpy mouse and I say , think of they , let it pass on by . They don't say anything , they don't speak up . They are the people who the bullies look for , because they like mice right . Right , right . And what I say is are you going to say , hey , don't do that , that bothers me .
And the bully is just going to say , oh , I'm sorry , walk away ? Probably not , but time after time after time , they're going to know you're not going to put up with it and that you're going to get help if needed . So you're being assertive but aggressive
¶ Navigating Emotional Reactions and Relationships
. Is that angry monster which I kind of , in our discussion I'm thinking about ? Maybe I don't want to use angry because I don't want to associate anger necessarily with aggression all the time . Anger is again that light on the dashboard that says what else is going on .
But we do use angry monster because kids can get that and it's just someone who lashes out in a mean way . You know again those four common emotions that are under anger . The teacher lost their homework . They may respond with , you know , lashing out being disrespectful versus hey , could you double check ? I really spent a lot of time on that assignment .
Yeah .
And then assertiveness is standing up for yourself in a kind way , so telling the truth , speaking the truth and love . So if someone says , you know , I don't like your shirt today , you could say please don't say that , or we talk about an I statement . I feel really sad when you say those things . Could you please not do that Right ?
And so , and I always say , remember that it's so empowering to be able to say how you feel , even if the response is not what you want it to be . You still walk away feeling proud of yourself that you stood up for yourself and that you've planted a seed . You're not going to put up with that .
And then passive , aggressive is we know that someone is mad or angry or sad , but they're not talking about it . We feel that tension right .
As an empath , I can walk in the room and know that there's been something awkward that just happened or there's tension , and so I think what you're saying with men and yeah , yeah , I think I think with men and I don't want to make it a stereotype , because it goes both ways .
You know it , women deploy this , men deploy this as well Just depends on their coping strategy and personality . But but I do know a lot of the guys out there . We've talked about this and it and it would be a helpful tool in that context , but it goes both ways .
Right , right . So the the , I think , stereotypical situation is the husband says what's wrong ? You seem angry or sad or something's wrong , and the wife says I'm fine , right and I think nothing's wrong . We do that because we want to feel known and heard , we want you to just know , which again isn't good on our part .
And then men like you said well , I don't know what to do with that . So I , I either trust my intuition and know something's wrong , but she's not willing to talk about it , or I just leave it alone . And the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse which Gottman , in his marital research , talks about .
One of them is stonewalling , which is being passive , just putting up a wall . As I think about it , criticism and contempt are actually aggression , right .
And then the other one is so we have criticism , contempt , and so the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse are what John Gottman has figured out are the main reactions to what leads to divorce or toxic relationships .
Hmm .
So criticism , contempt , stonewalling and gosh . I can't think of the fourth one right now .
Man , those three are enough to end it .
And usually we're guilty of two if we're honest with ourselves . And honestly it's usually women being critical , nagging , contemptuous , and then men kind of shutting down and stonewalling . So you know , we need to be aware of those and how those show up in our marriages .
Well , I think , shannon , that gift that you gave to us , no pun intended , but the G I , f , t acronym for anger , I know for me and my community of men and guys that are in my life that is that I have never heard before , but is the key , an answer , to be able to identify with that anger and to know where it's coming from and then to be able to
respond , because generally when you're angry , aggression , stonewalling , passive , just putting up a wall , not talking , and defensiveness , which is passive , aggressive usually , or just aggression .
So they really do all fit into those . Men are guilty of the stonewalling and defensiveness where women usually go more with criticism and contempt , and man , we can see that even in the first sin , with Eve kind of taking charge and again not trusting God , almost in a critical way , and then Adam just falling passive .
I mean it's been in our DNA for a long time .
Yeah , surely I mean it's been in our DNA for a long time ? Yeah , surely , and you were sharing with me earlier , before this podcast , about a way that we can reset and also be less reactive and more responsive , simply learning to breathe and it does something in your brain that helps shift and gets you grounded and centered quickly .
Do you just want to share briefly about that before we end the podcast today ?
Yeah , so we know that God gave us the survival mechanism of fight or flight when we were hunters and gatherers and would see a big bear in the woods on a daily basis . So what happens is our lid is flipped . If this were our amygdala and this were our brain ? So more blood and oxygen are going to that area so that we respond .
You know , um , quickly , right Our breathing speeds up our heart rate speeds up . Um , and we , we are thinking , okay , let's say , someone fainted right in front of us . Okay , what do we do ? What do we do ? We call 911 . Our breathing speeds up . Well , what we want to do to get back online .
And also like blood is pushed to the muscles so you can react . And you can , you know , move , run , fight , whatever you're about to do .
Which is where freeze comes in . The blood flow doesn't go to those other organs because it's all rushing to the brain , god and his awesome creation , so that it gets enough blood and oxygen for you to think in fast crisis mode . But yeah , no wonder we freeze . There's not as much blood flow going to heart , lungs , all those things .
So the way to calm yourself down is those deep breaths in through your nose , yeah , in through your nose , out through your mouth for about four minutes will reset man is what that scientists have found gets you completely back to equilibrium status and part of that is because of your cerebral cortex or your it .
The rational part of your brain is now filling back up with blood as oxygenated blood , because you're taking those breaths .
Yes , because that's your rational , logical brain , important for all parents to know . That is not done developing till 25 . That's the part that holds . How is this decision right now ?
going to affect the future Right . My brain is like exploding , especially for married couples . Um , if , if , we could incorporate into our marriages , especially in the beginning . Hey , I need a breather , Like literally I need to take , can I just ? I am angry right now and I don't even know why . I don't know which of the gift acronym it's coming from .
Let me just take four minutes and have a breather and let's continue this conversation . That could change the way that we , you know , have our hard conversations .
Right Now , where that gets hard is , there's usually a fighter fighters , mary flighters , right . So the flighter wants to get away the fire's like no , we're going to figure this out right now .
So what I always tell the flighter to do is you have to be willing to initiate the conversation when you're in a better place , when you've thought through it sooner rather than later , right , don't ? let the sun go down on your anger so softly , briefly and soon is really good to remember for marital conflict .
But the soon part is , yeah , I'm not going to say in a week we need to talk about this , but let me gather my thoughts , let me tend to my heart . Which of those four , if I was angry , was triggered ? Even a step further , what does it remind me of ? And if I can share that , that's what emotional intimacy , when emotional intimacy is created in marriage .
So , yeah , tending to our hearts is key for so many things that we are going to come across .
Wow , wow and emotional intimacy is kind of the glue for longevity of marriage and enjoyment and satisfaction of marriage .
Wow , that is huge Well we have to know our own story well enough to do that . I've heard intimacy be , you know , separated , as into me , I see . So we have to know what is it ?
that's amazing ?
yeah , yeah , that so I do this fear cycle into me . I see , yeah , that is incredible feeling . That feeling , and I promise you it's going to be premarital , it's going to be in childhood , it's going to be in a teen year .
Very rarely is it going to be created by your spouse , but because our spouse is our closest person , they bump in to what dad or mom or coach created a coach created , and so we need to say , hey , that when you speak to me that aggressively , it reminds me of when dad would yell at me .
You're not responsible for that , but I just need you to know that . That's what it reminds me of , and then you again validate wow , that's important to me and it matters . And I will do my very best to try to not make you feel that way .
That is freaking incredible , Shannon . I have gotten so many things out of just our conversation today . It's been incredible , amazing . Please , you guys , if you want to head to show notes or see any of the other resources that we have there , please head to Joel Johnson slash wholehearted .
We'll have all of that for you this is probably been my , my worksheet for the uh wimpy mouse angry monster , friendly person , real easy just to walk your kids through . If this happens , let's talk about three ways you could respond and the best way to respond .
Yeah , that's incredible . So in the show notes you can download that for free . Free therapy , free help , and not only that , but you can help your children , you can help your spouse , you can help your friends and grow through this . Thank you , Shannon , for all that information . I'm really really grateful .
We have this conversation today and I'm sure everybody out there listening right now is grateful as well . Well , remember , you access the life you long for through your heart , and all of these tools will help you to be internally healthy , mentally healthy , emotional healthy , heart healthy , and until next time .