S4E3 - Poor Vir, Who's Lennier?

content warning It makes sense but if you're uncomfortable Hello and Who have gotten to know a favorite Babylon. Five. I'm

And I'm Laura.

to talk about

Yeah. Did we ever come up with a name for this bit? I don't know that we did.

I don't think we did. sheet. I've just got it

Yeah, me too. We need a name.

we crowdsourced plot

Mm-hmm.

very happy

I mean, the crowd could suggest another one and that'd be great. Yeah. We're, we're talking about the alignments of the ambassadors today, so we're gonna figure out, like on that scale, the little matrix. Chaotic, neutral, lawful evil, neutral, good. Where do each of our main ambassadors fall? So that's gonna Belen Kar, Lando and Kosh and Kosh Two, or Kosh Point oh as we call him. So, uh,

like even like when

yeah. Yeah, he's, he's definitely unique. So I'm very curious. I, when I sat down to actually do this, I felt like it was kind of hard. I think it felt like it was hard with our command staff too. Um, but I'm curious to see what you think. And then I actually have a little, like a cheat sheet for myself that helped me figure out some of these that were harder for me. Who do you wanna start with?

I will say, except for

Okay. Yeah, I definitely had trouble with that, with at least two of them. Uh, so tell me what your thoughts are.

probably

Okay. Okay. Okay. I could see that cuz I definitely pegged her as lawful Good. And just did not, did not ha think about changes or anything, but I, I see where you're coming from On, on neutral. Good. Why don't you elaborate a little bit?

uh, you know, she does break

Okay. That's true.

does choose to ignore a handful the greater good of the universe really is

Yeah. She's kind of playing by her own internal laws and not necessarily the societal laws around her.

Yes. And why I think that would

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Literally.

Yeah, it's one thing Joe Not, not to bring up any specific examples

Yeah.

the president de facto

Mm.

And that's kind of where I skewed in here Now. Luckily, she's taking it on the good

Yeah. She's not a. Yes. Yes. Yeah. There's a lot of them out there, though. It is even more than just the one you're alluding to. Sure. Yeah. I, I think de Lens's the easiest of all of them to peg, right? Yeah. Okay. So what about, uh, Kar, how do you feel about him?

I

Okay. Can do.

I think

Okay. I definitely pegged JA car, chaotic, neutral.

chaotic,

Okay. Yeah, I, I, Wrote chaotic, neutral for Jaar. And I was thinking about him just, I don't know, I guess up to the point we're at. But he has kind of taken his good turn already, hasn't he? Like, yes. Yes. That was a big, motivator of change. DeLanda was the one I had the hardest time with. So I'm sitting there like thinking about Londo and I was like, is Londo evil? Like, I don't wanna think he's evil, but he's done some pretty evil things.

think Alando

Yeah. Mm-hmm.

No matter how not

Yeah. Yeah. So the, you said true neutral is where he started,

lawful, neutral. I, I, I think

neutral.

lawful what

Yeah.

Not necessarily his personal code of

Okay.

and this is

Right. Yeah,

at the very least, it's accepted

yeah, that's true. So then he goes to lawful evil. Yeah. Uh, and that's where I wound up like, Doing, going in circles in my head like, where is Lando? And I actually like Googled for one of these alignment charts to like, help me. And so this chart that I'm looking at it, the y axis is you go from selfish to selfless on, you know, evil through good, and then the X axis. You're going to from prioritize a structure and tradition to prioritize a change in freedom.

Chiari, and you're

Yeah. Mm-hmm. And I think it's interesting that they brought it in too with the relationship with Londo and Garabaldi and then we get, at this point in the show, Kar like risking his life for Garabaldi. And Garibaldis kind of like an every man in the show, you know, he's the, the every guy, just a, just a everyday Joe doing his security job. And, he's doing the thing that we are doing at the same time as he's, he sours on lawn and, he lifts up with Kar. So, man, it was tough.

I think outwardly chaotic

Yeah. Yeah.

it's tough to say because chaotic.

Mm-hmm. Right.

but they also are entirely

Yeah, it, it's a whole bunch of rules we don't understand, but they're following their rules. Yeah. So I kind of pegged. I don't know. I kind of pegged the original Kosh maybe as true, neutral, just kind of

I think

You think he's good?

I think he Cares

Uh, yeah.

aliens in general, like he does, he actually cares

Yeah. Okay. I could pay him as neutral. Good. Especially, I'm reading my chart and it says, uh, for neutral good. Whether I break or follow the rules is inconsequential. What matters most is being selfless in protecting the wellbeing of others, because Kosh definitely broke the rules to, uh, help Sheridan. At one point and then, you know, left a piece of himself with Sheridan to like save him, so,

And given reaction

Yeah. I agree. I agree. Okay, so I, I'm gonna go with neutral. Good. I'm changing my opinion of Kosh original Kosh. about Kosh Point Oh.

It's hard to say.

Yeah, the the purple suit and the red eye are definitely supposed to make us think he's evil, right?

Yeah, Yeah, for We're supposed to

Yeah.

like his actions

Mm-hmm.

and not

Yeah.

I mean, being a

Yeah.

does that make you evil? I'd say if of the in acting percent yes.

Mm-hmm.

But again operating on an entirely way anyone comprehend,

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

also FRA

Mm-hmm.

I, I put him as because I don't And to act, not necessarily but definitely

Right. Yeah. Yeah.

that kind of

Mm-hmm.

That makes me It's definitely a form of selfishness given galactic, gathering

Yeah, I, I've got him as lawful neutral, just under that assumption that he is operating under the rules and laws of VO on society that we don't understand. Um, but yeah, neutral. I was like, I don't know. I don't, he's, he's definitely coded as evil, but hard to say. I think we figured those guys out. Mm-hmm. Spoilers for the end.

summoning. Are you ready for a fact

I always love a fact that's gonna blow my mind.

the gathering actually all cast

Wow. We got them all together for this one. Huh? Didn't have any scheduled conflicts. Wow. Neat. I mean, it's a, it's a big cast.

Yeah, I did not check this at all, but I read it on mid-winter and if it's on Lurkers guide, it's fact cuz someone

would've complained already. Yeah,

would've Um, actually that I, I trust

yeah, yeah.

we have Swaths this checks Andreas would

Yeah. Yeah. Makes sense. When you're watching this episode, you're watching on Voodoo, right? Okay. So I noticed on, we're watching on Apple, or we bought it on, you know, through iTunes or whatever. the audio at the beginning of this episode, the audio and a little bit of the video was terrible. Did you have that same feeling? Okay. I don't know what's going on over at Apple,

Everyone

maybe. Yeah, that's one of those, uh, really popular shows I have not picked up, so

I haven't I haven't you wanna watch afterwards, it is

So I probably need that one right now. Okay.

Yeah. especially if you got Apple already paying for

Okay. Noted.

We open up she doesn't need a translator She's got

I also wrote Duo Lingo in my notes. Yeah. Yeah, she does. Okay. Up until a point.

Yeah, they listen and just like, well, I'll tag along just in case. And Ivanova, I think is learning Imari to not have Marcus tag along. That's like the vibe just like, no, don't, don't And it's No, you?

that's definitely it. She did not want to have to have Mar lean on Marcus at all, and uh, she's been trying not to. Hmm. I gotta do a little bit more duo lingo, I guess. Not quite there. I thought it was funny in this scene at the end, Dylan tells Marcus that anyone who laughs has to answer to her. I have a hard time picturing the mbar laughing about this.

Well, I think knowing five

Hmm.

on its way if you uh, they talk about different apparently

Okay. Okay.

they probably

Okay.

the language might actually accidents, especially you think about what she's doing, she's probably saying rather

Okay.

So it probably would actually knowing how comedy

Yeah. We just don't see them laugh much. We don't, I guess, toss out puns all the time on this show. I had a hard time picturing it. I was like, They're a little too Vulcan for that, right? They're gonna be respectful, but okay. Maybe over on Centara Prime, Lando and Veer encountered Kar being, humiliated in the throne room. Oh, I hope they don't have these hats.

Uh, I mean, the missing

Mm-hmm.

still did not, is not good. Did not feel

Yeah. Yeah. Big props to the costumer who put together this jesters hat. It, has a nice level of sinister to it with the little spiky things on it. Yeah. Yeah.

after

I said the same thing. I was like, man, he's, he's not even, you know, if you wanna use a one of those stupid incel terms, he's not even like friend zoned, he's not in a zone, he's not even acknowledged. She lists off everybody else.

can't go

Yeah,

daily and just like everyone I hold dear is she lists like Garabaldi. We've never seen them have a conversation,

yeah, yeah.

Lanier, fuck that guy.

I guess for that matter, She doesn't have any positive associations with Franklin either then, cuz Franklin's definitely on the station. Mm-hmm.

Marcus yeah, this conversation

I mean, like everything out of Marcus's mouth is a little flirtatious. But he's put, he lays it on extra thick with Iva. Truly, yes. Mm-hmm. He has an agenda. I'm not, I'm not against it. I love the big flirt energy. Go for it. My dude, uh, in the war room, Zach tells Dalen that they've found a lead on where Garibaldi might be, but also Kar is missing, so I can do one thing, but not the other thing. And Dalen sends him after Aldi. Yeah. Yeah. We're just gonna have to hope Kar is okay by himself.

cut

Yeah. In the Garden of Betrayal,

and I just gotta pain technicians. your job but workers' rights.

Yeah.

Yeah. yeah,

Yeah.

man, I wish your job didn't exist, but I'm glad you guys at least got together and your job's

Make sure that you get, you know, those benefits for that mental health coverage you're probably gonna need, yeah. And of course, work related injuries. I mean, yeah, it's very serious.

I don't know if you've got the episode but at nine minutes and 45 he like throws a bloody towel to his aid and lands on his face right past. the way his eyes roll reality.

It's like, I can't believe I'm here. This is my job. Uh, I was very impressed with Cartage ability to keep that white coat, white outfit un bloodied when his hands are so bloody. And you know what that is? That's the customer going, I can't make another one of these. Y'all can't ruin it. Keep it on the hands.

going to die. Zack and running

yeah,

What's happening it's

yeah. I mean, it's not an Earth Station anymore.

the Rangers, so I guess she's like technically a

Yeah.

ki not even really a visiting general, like it's just,

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Would we just give control of our military force on an island to a visiting? I don't, I don't know. Uh, it's, it's

it's allies. military force that protects Babylon five. So is she really a visiting general? just the general?

Yeah, I don't know. It's all very, very murky.

Anyway, she goes to

Lee's also. Like very abused here. And this is the first, well, I think we've seen signs of it, but this is like her first confirmation that the new VLAN ambassador is an abusive jerk. Uh, he's made her get rid of all of her things. I feel like that's a classic abuser tactic, right? She's only allowed to have a bed and only because she needs to sleep or she will die if she doesn't sleep. So he needs her alive. She can have the bed, but yeah,

Zach is the ship

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Soran wrapped to a table as we find out. How big is this pod too? Like usually when you see pod life, life pods depicted in sci-fi, they're like little tiny things. This one is big enough for a table that you can soran wrap a whole guy to. Very strange. Zach, you can. Yeah, and you could tell Zach feels it is off. This whole thing is off. Do they find Garabaldi this way? Saran wrapped to the table, yeah.

him next.

True. Yeah. We do see his eyes flash open as he's on the table as a computer voice speaks to him, so, Hmm.

Weta tries to

Yeah.

haven't done

The um, like. Sexual abuse vibes in the scene are very strong as, uh, it opens up with Yeah. And it opens up with him, you know, she carries Kosh around right. And he goes back into his counter suit and she tells him, you hurt me as you came out. And it's like, oh man, that's

Yeah,

pretty vivid right there. Yeah,

Yeah, I, I needed

Yeah,

so

it's icky. Yeah. And it's, it's just enough that if you're not thinking about it, you might pass over it. But, uh, it's unpleasant to think about this, especially if you think of e Eli's relationships with the kashas as relationships like. Because she like is carrying their self, their spirit, something around in her body. Yeah. And she's had kind of this religious experience going to the VO space and being turned into their little, their little tool, I guess. I don't know how to say it.

pride, get it going around preaching the sacrifices

Yeah.

he puts up a previous

I felt the same way. I was like, this is interesting that he's holding onto this, but I guess maybe like it's this last thing and we've gotta see him give up his last thing. Mm-hmm. Yeah. He's like, just let me have this one piece.

there might be a, bit of

Mm-hmm.

captured

Mm-hmm. Yeah,

I, I, I,

in a very triggering situation.

he says

Yeah, this conversation got extremely personal. I just can't believe it. I just can't. I mean, maybe depending on what age he was when he went to the Rangers, perhaps. I don't think

gotta imagine

specifically.

I mean,

May. Maybe it's that maybe he went to the Rangers really young, but I was like, look at his face. Just look at him.

I mean, I feel like I have accidentally like

Mm-hmm.

I feel like that's happened to me, and I feel like it would've happened to him

I mean, yeah, look at him. I don't know. I just, that was, that was a bit of a leap for me. I was like, I need a more of a timeline of how old he is when he went to school. Like, gotta make me believe it. Jay Mihael. Sru Zinsky. I don't.

doing his own only joined

Right. And it's like, okay, well when, how old was your brother? How old were you? Like,

how long is

yeah, it seems like it's gotta be a while if you have to learn menari and then to be a badass martial arts fighter and zen.

kind of and war starts to pick up,

Yeah. And you're a ranger. And you're a ranger. And you are a ranger. Anyways, they encounter a strange pocket in hyperspace and it's only detectable because of the ship's rolon technology that has been incorporated into it. And surprise. It's a big pocket full of ORs.

massive capital

Yeah. And I think they tell us there's more than one, but we see one in our cgi.

and I don't remember if it's this episode or

I think it's the next Yeah. Yeah, yeah,

yeah, we come back to He says he doesn't. I'm not saying he's but he has a How much

yeah. Right. Is this just sort of happening in his subconscious, or is he actually remembering it when he is having these like nightmares and then. Flashes in his, uh, waking hours. Um

By the way, there's some unknown ship heading straight for Babel on five. You might wanna

Yeah. He's like, we saw it on some sensors. I

Craziest

Yeah. Yeah. Daly doesn't seem to make much of this. Like, we don't get really a reaction from her. Uh, but you know, we got big fridge to fry. We're trying to put together a fleet. We got one little ship coming. What, how bad could it be?

Yeah. fleet is gathering here, so maybe, maybe you're not as

Yeah. Yeah. Maybe this one's just like, oh, I heard there was a fleet. I'm going to be a fleet.

right? Yeah,

Mm-hmm. Yeah, The, the Beki ambassador says too, that, you know, like I, I wanted to stay out of it. They wouldn't tell me anything. But these, uh, other races that. Don't want to go get killed are also going to be protesting you soon. I don't know when I don't know what's going on, they wouldn't tell me. But you might wanna look, you might wanna, I think he, he wants her to stop them and she's like, no, I'm not going to stop them. Free speech. Um, but I will go also exercise my own free speech.

Lando

Oh yeah, I remember that.

vere looks

Yeah. Veer sweet baby. Fear. He's not built for this.

lash setting we're

Yeah. He, uh, he realizes that he's no good to anybody dead, especially not the entire Narn home world.

it has command

Yeah. Which freaks everybody out.

As it

all the security. Yes, it definitely should.

Wouldn't those be like Sheridan's command codes? Like

Yeah.

wouldn't it be like, the captain's codes. that

We're not all sharing a code, right. Like

please,

that. We've ta we talk about password security a lot on this show.

For being a non-IT podcast, he manages

Yeah. I feel like it's bad, bad password security if we all have the same command code.

like peekaboo and it just lets him dock. It's like, oh, scare of bald these's

Yeah. It should have been clear at this point. Who's it coming, but

mean, I get

Oh yes. And they're definitely hype in the drama here because we get like cuts between this escalating protest and the crowd getting aggressive toward Dylan and linear. And then like the dramatic reveal of who's coming off the spaceship. It's played very well.

do manage to tell everyone the secret plan

The draws haven't been exactly coded as a intelligent, like super intelligent race. Right.

mean, can you imagine 2nd, bitching about D-Day about to happen.

Yeah, especially if you have the internet at that time, which we didn't,

Yeah. Right.

but yeah, that'd be a problem.

is gathering around space clearly see

Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

getting everyone riled up to join

I just wanna point out that on the third episode, he arose from the dead. The Jesus parallels are strong, my friends.

I actually have a whole conversation

Yeah, there's an another one that's a good spot to put it, so I, I'm sure we're on the same vibe, so, okay.

together and the shadows are dicks.

Yeah. Surprise. It's all bad. This whole time. Garabaldi cannot stop side eyeing Lorian. He is not cool with this guy. And I do feel a little bit like we probably should have interrogated Sheridan's return a little bit more everybody

I

we do Yeah.

it ties into

Yeah. I just was like, We know that Anna Sheridan came back from Zha Doom altered. We know that Morden has been on and off Zha doom and is theoretically altered, like why do we immediately trust Sheridan and Garibaldi doesn't?

yeah, I have to imagine that Sheridan

Yeah, I would've liked to see that addressed.

a little lip service paid to

I think that's in the next episode. Yeah. So they do kind of like, eh,

feels like

Yeah, they blend seamless. Yeah.

and

Mm-hmm.

Lanier again,

I know, right? And he's the one who got them outta there. Yeah. Nobody listens to poor linear. Nobody cares about Lanier.

is actually a death fucking Everyone's gonna die to credits.

Yeah. What a, what a uplifting note to end this episode on. I think it's real good. Uh, I would give it, I think I'm gonna give a four cuz I like it a lot, but I, I feel like we've still got room to grow.

Yeah. I, sat this one at

Okay. Yeah.

it feels better than a three, but not

Okay.

But I don't have any

I'm, uh, I'm always down for car. Taja being crazy. He's crazy and he's really amping it up in this episode. It gets even better in the next episode, I really enjoy the, like, dramatic cuts that we get and even the silly Jesus metaphor, it all, uh, it all hits real good for me. So this is a four episode for me,

again in a next week. episode falling

Mm. That's a lot.

It's a lot you know, when I read this, Sheridan has a surprise for That's one way I got things to say about that and you know, who else will have Our guest week, Ben's

Yay. I'm so excited.

I'm super excited. Ben and I will launching our new podcast the day be talking about that But before

Great.

I've got

Do tell

Everyone else on Jeremy Siegel, friend The Friend has been accepted, so let me say even more so than normal. Thank you Jeremy for our lovely You can find more of two.bandcamp.com, and also May album just dropped.

it did. Mm-hmm. I saw it dropped. last night. Fantastic. Also, thank you to Angry Duck Time Machine on Instagram for our podcast artwork. Yes. And thank you so much, because I know it was hard this week. Yeah. And thank you to Yeah.

everyone.

Yeah, I was gonna say thank you for listening.

appreciate it. their

All right. Bye.