S3E4 - New Meat Suit

Hello, and welcome to who are you? We're a Babybel on five watch cast by a couple of strangers. Now, friends who are getting to know each other over one of their favorite shows from their childhood Babylon five. I'm Laura.

And I'm sure

And today we have something different.

Yeah, we're gonna do some fewer male.

It's mail bag time.

Some of these letters came in before the season to recap. And some of it is people who have found our podcast and are catching up. So most of these are actually about old episodes of ours.

Okay.

But going back to season one,

Okay.

It's most of the stuff I have. So we'll go ahead and get into Uh, we have a letter from John. About our episode believers, our episode, aren't believers that in the episode of Babylon five believers,

I'm dying to know.

John says, thanks for a perspective on the episode. I'd never heard before. Expanding on the interpretation that it's good odds. The parents were right. We know that souls exist in the Babylon five universe. Thanks to soul hunter. We know souls can be contained and escape from a container as a vapor like

Mm-hmm.

When Franklin cuts the child, we see vapor escape along with a similar sound of the one. When he Dylan frees the souls. Even if you don't accept that interpretation. We can assume that Franklin doesn't know everything about the on teen. It could be part of the neurological apparatus that creates consciousness, involves the platter. And that kid is now a zombie. Let's see, loved the that's some colonizer shit from Joe fair, enjoying the show a lot, John.

Yeah, that takes me back.

yeah. A hundred percent. Franklin did not know everything about the on team. That was the main problem is that he refused to do the research. He would've known before he even brought it up. If he had just. Read the fucking file.

Yeah, that's.

of just being an arrogant jackass.

I think that's Franklin's main. flaw in. These early episodes of his right. That he feels like he knows everything. It's his problem these aliens? It's his problem with his dad as he feels morally superior to his dad a little It's his Problem with ladies sometimes like,

Yeah.

Yeah, I think

And honestly it's his addiction is also very much stemmed from that. It's not a problem because I would know if it was a problem. It's my job to know it's when it's a problem and diagnose it and others. So I obviously will know when it's a problem. And it's not a problem because I say so.

Yeah, that is a good point. And that brings it up to current episodes.

Yeah, it's a thorough line for his character. Throughout the show really? It really is for a long time. I think. After the without too much spoilers after the addiction storyline. Comes to a

Yeah, we're gonna have some humble pie introduced. I think.

Yeah, for sure.

Yeah.

All right. Well, thanks for your letter, John.

Mm-hmm.

We've got a, another little quick one here from Patrick. Patrick asks. So if someone, just any random person, not necessarily me, but someone wanted to represent the hosts of the show with a fictional character in meme format for no particular reason. Who would you prefer to be stand-ins for the house? Laura I'm thinking perhaps Kermit for Laura. And Imperial Komisar fridge fare. But that's just because I was looking at those sorts of names.

Uh, yeah. I was like, there's a couple of Kermit, right. There's also like dark Kermit where. Yeah. it's got the hood on. I do like Kermit sipping tea. That's that would be very flattering. I would feel very honored to be that Kermit.

Yeah. Imperial commissar I know is 40 K and I know that I play 40 K but I'm not familiar with the meme, but I'm probably just old.

uh,

So I will defer to the judgment of our audience and the meme making community in our discord. I tr I trust you to uh, use appropriate memes.

I would have to Google that Imperial com. Sorry, I don't recognize that off the top of my head. It's probably one of

the image.

when

Like I have the image in my head. I just don't know what the like joke with that particular meme is.

Yeah. Interesting. Interesting. I, I would be most honored by whatever our meme community came up with. I think that's adorable.

Is it. It's deeply concerned. Commissar

You wanna pop that over to me? Can you send that to me in discord?

Yeah, I sure can.

Oh, okay.

That's that's, that's kind of close. He's got the big bushy eyebrows. His nose is of a similar profile. Mine's got a little.

I've seen you do this with your hands when we are talking about serious stuff.

That's I do do the thing I to do that thing. That's fair. That is a mannerism of

I'll have to post like a Kermit and this on our Facebook, so people know what we're talking about. Make myself a note to do that for this episode.

All right. Well, there, we've got the official word go for it.

Yeah. Do your best or, or worst. Patrick. We look forward to it. Okay. So I also had a question from uh, symbolic Godzilla in our discord. This is a very lighthearted question. I need you to think seriously about it for a second. Jare

Okay.

Symbolic Godzilla asks. Now that as of season two review, you are both over a level 50 podcast hosts with a year of continuous podcast adventures and a power level, over 10,000. What do you cross class into?

I, well, I think it's safe to say I cross class into podcasting.

Yeah. Okay.

I think I am a chaotic good three, five pallet in a freedom personally. That is, that is the vibe that I try to maintain in my life.

Yeah.

the pallet in of freedom is a Paladin of an ideal. Compared to a. Re deity of some variety.

Okay.

And so the pellet and of freedom has dedicated themselves to exactly that freedom. Which is something I feel. Very strongly about I don't think that's a surprise for anyone. Who's heard me go on one of my political rants. I feel like that's all pretty well aligned.

Or if you had happened to be like listening to us before we started recording this episode? Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. You know, it's, it's a, freedom's a big deal. That's why I like things like universal healthcare because. The freedom to. The ability to pursue the use and enjoyment of your freedom. Is just as important as having

Yeah. That's the life, Liberty and pursuit of happiness, right.

For sure.

Well, I think. For me, podcasting was a bit of a cross class, right. This was the new adventure. But. I'm really thinking about this for my next year. Like there were, at that time of the year. I don't know. I don't remember what day this comes out, but that we're all thinking about new year's resolutions and stuff. So I am definitely thinking about my next thing.

Yeah. This episode I think is going to come In December.

Okay. Yeah. So it's very timely.

quick. Let's see. Yeah. This episode comes out December 7th.

Yeah. So everybody's probably thinking about their next thing too.

Yeah.

I don't, I don't know what I'm gonna do yet. I I like your um, alignment that you gave yourself as chaotic. Good. I, gosh, I'm probably stuck at lawful good. I just can't help myself.

Lawful good is an important alignment. I just think the laws are stupid.

I aspire to chaos, but I am not able to do it. It's just against who I am my nature, I guess. But. Yeah, I don't, I don't know what I'm gonna cross class into next, but I'm definitely gonna be thinking about it and it's gonna be on my little like mental post-it board. What's your cross class? What are you doing? So, thanks for giving me something to Think about.

It's. I mean, it's a good way of thinking about it. Addressing it that way as to like things that I'm looking forward to doing or things that I want to be Yeah. I mean, I've got, I've got a December to do list. I I spent four hours today. Setting up my wood shop in my garage. I haven't had my wood shop since I moved. I've had a couple of tools out here and there, but I, it has not been organized or set up or well

Yeah.

so I installed a ton of drop lighting in my garage today in the wood shop area. And I cleaned up about half the garage, got all tools on tables and stuff. And. Got my nails and screws, all organized for future. Use that kind of

Mm-hmm.

So probably probably some more woodworking. I got a couple. Cutting boards. I want to make, I've seen some cool designs. I need to go buy some scrap wood.

Yeah. That'll be fun.

All right. Well, we have one more letter. This letter comes from Matt. Lauren fair. So you folks are the only ones who I know, who appreciate the joke. I didn't quite explain the context. Well enough to my wife, who hasn't seen the show. But during an outing, she had asked me to put her sunglasses in one of my several pockets because she didn't bring her purse. She said that men's clothing has enough pockets to constitute a purse.

I'm always down to hear a joke. listeners, if you wanna email your, your jokes and your memes too, If you're not in the discord. Do it.

Yeah. Shoot us an email with those jokes and memes. Also a moment of outrage for the lack of pockets on women's clothing. I don't understand. I don't understand. I don't even like, even with the, some of the pockets I've seen on women's clothing. Is just a joke like, oh, you got a pocket you can Three nickels in there and it's all like what about a cell phone?

Yeah,

Where is the utility? Like it drives me insane.

Well, and think about like you, you dudes that have your purse within your pants and jacket. You can distribute that weight of whatever you're carrying pretty evenly over your body. A purse, unless you're doing a cross body purse is hanging from one shoulder, messing up your posture in your alignment. It's horrible.

It's terrible and completely unfair to And. It literally drives me bonkers. Like if I were to. Be a more skilled. Seems to Taylor Seamster, whatever the

Sure.

term there is. And also not have to worry about like having a day job.

Yeah.

I feel like out of spite, I would spend my time designing functional utilitarian women's clothing.

I would love that. I would love that. Although I, you know, I have seen some dudes who have some pretty gnarly, thick wallets that they keep in their pants and y'all are also throwing off your alignment. Every time you sit down, my friends. So be careful if your wallet's super thick, maybe move that baby to the front pocket. When you sit down, just look it out for you guys.

I don't understand the use of back pockets for anything besides receipts and trash.

Yeah.

If I would not be willing to put it on a chair and then sit on it. It is not going in my back pocket. I don't understand the logic.

there are many people who I know are doing it the other way. It's so weird. So weird. All right, well that's great. Mail bag time. Are you ready to get into an

We have. An episode ahead of us. And I, I mean, I don't mean that in the, obviously in the clearly rhetorical sense. Yes. We have an episode ahead of us, but this episode ahead of us.

Mm-hmm.

Hmm. I'm ready to talk about this episode. We've got season three, episode four. Passing through jus enemy.

Yeah.

Hey, Laura, real quick off the top. Did you catch your directed this episode?

I didn't cuz I'm a loser. Tell me.

Adam Nimoy.

Oh, my gosh, really.

Yeah.

Oh, wow. Well, that seems to be an indicator of quality here. very

JMS when talking about this episode. Before it's released describes it, his, his take on doing an episode of the Twilight zone. Also this episode almost didn't happen.

Oh, really what happened to it?

So back in season two was the original plan to do this episode. Where it was going to be some of the monks coming to the station before. The big group of monks that arrive in season three to kind of like establish that they were going to be showing up later.

Okay, set the set the tone. Sure.

Yeah, it's going to be like an early season, two episode. But after the quality of mercy EHRs

Mm-hmm.

in season one, someone on use net was all like, wait, this is how they get rid of criminals. Wouldn't it be crazy if there was like someone on the station who was a mind wipe criminal and just had no idea. And then like a Taliban brought out those memories or something and made them go crazy. What a crazy episode of Babylon five that would be in JMS is sitting here like mother fucker.

That would be good. God Damnit

Well, he had already planned it.

Oh, Oh, okay.

That's he had already, like, this was already part of the planned episode arc.

Uh, So he's saying you guessed my shit. You blew up my spot.

So he postpones the episode. Over the course of the next year. Starts talking to this person who had suggested this plot on use net flies out, meets with them in person, apparently gets them to sign paperwork. Like a nondisclosure or whatever, in an affidavit of some variety. That's of the lines of, I won't Sue John Michael Lynskey or Babylon five and all this shit for doing the episode that I in public suggested that they do beforehand.

Uh, This explains a lot about Jay Michael's Twitter. By the way. Because he's

this thing signed. Yeah.

yeah.

And he, he gets this thing signed. Brings it on home. The paperwork clears the lawyers and the episode gets the okay for season three.

That's a lot of work. That explains why he is so adamant on his Twitter. That do not suggest anything to me. He he will block people who suggest things,

Oh, yeah.

And I get it now.

Yep. That's why.

He's had, he's obviously had an experience. Well, I'm glad that it did get made. Even if it took all that work.

Yeah. I mean, I think it was worth it. And I think he would agree. Because he's only said good things about how this episode came

Yeah. Yeah, I hope that. that used Net fan, Appreciated. What came of that idea, even if it wasn't. His originally.

Yeah, well, I mean, It ideas can exist in multiple places.

For sure. So we open on a chess match. Between captain Sheridan and brother Theo. And we have Ava and a brother we haven't met yet. Watching. Yeah, brother Edward We know this actor very well. Don't we, if we've been watching our star treks.

This is Brad dura. Who is. Very famously typecast. I feel like as a serial killer in the

that's a very creepy person, at least. Right.

Yeah. So I didn't find much about him guest starring on the youth net. But in the season guide. There was a ton of stuff from multiple of the series regulars who were just like bread. Turf is a master of his craft. Whenever you're acting with him, it elevates you. It's like when you're playing in a jazz band and there are musicians around you who are so skilled that they elevate the entire group. That is what it is like acting with bread, dearth.

Uh, that's very nice, very complimentary. I have to say, I think. You know of the few things I've seen Brad din, I'm not gonna Say that I've seen a lot of his work cuz I probably haven't, but this is probably like the nicest role. When you think about it. Yeah. The character in the past. We find out, did some horrific things. But this person doesn't seem to be the same person.

Well, he's not.

yeah, so this is actually a very. Nice role. And you feel a lot of empathy for this character? I think most people do anyway. But anyway, so. Sheridan's. Big dogging Theo. He says that he's got him trapped. But Theo is very confident and speaks on his faith. And whoops, checkmate. Yeah. Sheridan was a too busy being. Confident about his moves and not paying attention to the actual board. And. As they're wrapping this up, Yvanova gets a message that ambassador Kosh is coming back. He's been out.

Yeah. When we see the ship dock Kosh walks out from behind Ivanova.

Yeah. .He's apparently just chilling in the bay.

he's he was, he wasn't on the ship. They just didn't know he wasn't on the station. Apparently. The ship was gone. They thought he was on it. He wasn't.

Yeah.

But outlooks Lita who is returned to Babylon five.

Yeah, she's back.

Liter recalls her journey to the Varroa on Homeworld. And kind of explains her role as cautious aids slash diplomatic attached.

Yeah. She basically just camped outside to war lawn space until they had to pick her up.

Yeah, we hear a harrowing story about how terrible they treated her. Um, that is not

They let her sit out in this pod for days. I think she says five days, In a life pod that they, they basically left her there. with her air running out. She's sending signals like actual ship signals telepathic signals. And finally, they, they picked her up and She's not allowed to talk about what she saw on the war on home world.

After this, we see brother Edward negotiating, some work for the monks and they black rose falls out of his bag.

Mm-hmm. ,Nothing sinister about a black rose ever.

Nope. Completely normal flour. Garibaldi is watching the news as Dylan comes in and we see the results of a murder trial. Someone is sentenced to death of personality. What a crazy random happenstance that we have this note in this episode at this time. Just in time for delenda ask. Hey, what is that depth of personality?

Yeah.

I wonder if this'll be important later. Can you explain this to me? Garibaldi?

Yeah. Gar Baldi is very. I I can't tell if he, I think he thinks

shouted a cab at the TV.

Yeah, he's he doesn't think this is enough justice. It's the implication. Right? He thinks that. Killing the person's mind. Isn't enough. We've got to kill their body too. I guess, maybe. He wants the electric chair back. Doesn't he? Didn't he say that something about the electric chair specifically, which I believe at, at this time in history, we'd already figured out that that was kind of inhumane.

Well, he always talked about spacing. All of the lurkers in down below. So Not exactly a beacon of compassion.

No. No, he's very black and white. Isn't he? And, he makes comments about. He wants an eye for an eye. And he wants the Harabi justice. Isn't that? Where that came. They teach us in history anyway, that it came from the code of

Robbie's code.

Yeah. Whether or not it actually came from there. I'm not gonna espouse on that, but I remember that's what I was taught. It's not necessarily right. And comments that you would leave all of society, toothless and blind then? Huh?

Yeah, that's some Gandhi.

Yeah. He misses the point entirely though. He, uh, says, but only the bad people ignoring the fact that we're all bad people sometimes.

Yeah. Dr. Franklin uh, is doing the work up on Lita and notes that she is now in perfect health, even better than she was before she

Mm-hmm. .Not suspicious at all.

As a Durham gets back to his quarters to find death walks among you on the wall. Which is not the boondock saints poster. He had put up in his dorm room before he had left.

I, I wonder what kind of artwork these monks would get to have in their cells, right. Shouldn't they have like some icons or. some something religious industry. I don't know. He doesn't, he doesn't get anything though,

I did find it interesting that he has his own room.

yeah. Isn't that

these monks are like famously very poor and constantly looking for work to pay for their rooms. I figured they'd be bunking up.

And I think that's a thing in monastic life often is that, you know, you're sharing spaces constantly. And. Yeah, but maybe you get your own cells, I guess they call 'em, But.

Yeah.

Well, okay. But he's got a sinister message on his wall and he is very upset. He brings Garabaldi back going straight to Garabaldi, not wanting to freak anyone else out. But the message is gone it's just disappeared. It's sort of like Sheridan's monster that he attacked. It just disappeared back in season two. So Garabaldi is a a nice dude and promises to look into it. cuz he's dealt with these kind of people before. And they get him somewhere else to go in the meantime.

Londo runs into Lita and basically does his best Dzhokhar impression from the pilot minus the sex.

Right. This is a big flip flop, Isn't it.

Yeah. Well, it's here to show us how much lead has changed. Is what I feel, what this real, the scene is really there for, because it is very similar to that. Like, Hey, I'm going to push you around for something that I want because your just some random telepath and I'm an important ambassador. And I'm going to be shitty about it. I'm going to be real shitty about it. And in the pilot, Lido was like upset, but not, I will burn you to the fucking ground, which is how she tells Alondo.

Yeah. She's had enough, especially when he trots out his well, I couldn't report you to Cycore threat. That he knows that they want her back. And She's not having any of it. She's gonna give him nightmares. You know what you would think that lawn would've learned some lesson from the techno age episode? on this. About

Oh, I know hasn't learned any lessons recently. That's kind of his emo at the moment.

Yeah, that's lawn's whole deal. Isn't it?

Dylan meets with brother Edward to interview them about religion. Lanier explains that the mean Bari believed that the soul is the puppet. One makes with the shadow in the flashlight at the slumber party.

Yeah. it's just a reflection of something else.

Yeah.

So I guess a reflection of the divine. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah, we were all part of the universe broken apart, trying to understand itself.

Mm-hmm.

Which is cool. That sounds, that sounds fun. That sounds like you want to give everyone

Yeah. sounds very Carl Sagan.

Scott Adams wrote a book about that in the early nineties, actually.

Really?

Yeah about Religion. Uh, uh, We're all just part of God's consciousness broken apart, and we're God trying to understand. Himself. And the whole thing. Yeah.

Yeah. I don't know if that reconciles with, with uh, Scott Adams

Scott album's history. Yeah. Scott Adams, I don't, this was, this would have been in like the late nineties, maybe early 2000. The book is called God's debris. I remember reading it when I was young. And thought Delbert was funny, but that was before my brain was fully developed. So. He can't really hold it against me.

I think maybe Dilbert was funny back then maybe. On occasion.

nineties. Yeah. Quite possibly.

I don't know about now.

That definitely not recently any Dilbert I've seen in the last long time was not funny, but it's done now anyways, so. Dylan asks Edward about Christianity and ask for the moment that is the emotional core. Of the belief.

Good question. Many people have many different answers to this, but his, I

Yeah. Yeah, he talks about Christ than the night before crucifixion. And having the courage to stay and knowing what was waiting and making the active choice.

Not to reject the cup. Yeah. Yeah. And he makes it personal because he tells her that he's not sure. That if he would've been that person. Which, you know, Christ was supposed to be. Deity, if you, depending on which. Christian track you follow he's like part of the three or, know, It's all theology. It's all hard for me to understand. But he's taken it to a personal lesson and and he wonders if he could have been that kind of person, if he was put in that sort of situation.

So on his way out of their quarters, brother, Edward ass about Valan and Dulla near becomes a 11 year old, who is just to ask about his favorite video game.

Yes.

He's very excited to talk about failing. And notes. We get the line the men Bari, not born of minbar.

Mm-hmm. ,That's gonna be important.

It is important. I found an interesting use net note here. About what the prevailing theory Availon was at this time, or at the very least a common Was that veiling was a viral on.

Oh, I mean, I could see that being

the season two finale. Yeah. We see, we see him as a angel thing.

Yeah. And she never put a name on that? Right. Like the others said, we saw Dral, and Jaar saw Nan by name.

I don't remember,

don't, I don't think she put a name on it. I don't think she said I saw vain or I saw.

Yeah. Oh, she definitely didn't say I saw Valan. But you know, the seed that Sorry, not born of memoir in cosh.

Mm-hmm.

is interesting and that is something that I had never considered.

Yeah. Me

was just something. That I'd never thought about before, but that's in very interesting thought. And I thought it was cool and it made me think about it a bit. So I figured I'd throw it out here. No spoilers.

that line. Just. Went over my head when I was a kid. Like, you know how adults, adults say weird things sometimes. Then you just kind of. Definitely for me, it went there and it wasn't until later in the series that I got it.

Yeah, and I mean, I only watched Babylon five on TNT. So when they picked it up and they moved it over and it was on like every day. So I was shotgun in this show as a kid, I was, it was as close as you could get to binge watching pre streaming is like one or two episodes a day, every day, leading up to the premier of season five. And I was making that. Almost every day. I did actually find out on my most recent watch through two years ago now.

On

In the last yeah. And in the 2020s.

That's crazy. Yeah, So brother Edward leaves, delin and linear and heads back to brown sector where the monks live. And he bumps into a sonari Kind of shoulders into him accidentally.

The make a real point of showing us the sky.

They do like, it's one of those moments that in a show you're like this isn't just a. This is important. And immediately afterwards, he starts to hear like sounds of scuffle. Someone very upset. And he sees the message. Again, he sees that death walks among you message. Appearing to be written in blood on just like a, a hallway. then he starts to see things.

Yeah, we get a very new, large kind of dream sequence.

Mm-hmm.

Almost.

And he's got a a dead woman That he turns over. He like stumbles into this body and she's got that black rose in her mouth.

We see him holding a knife, a pruning, a black rose. As well. Edward and Theo talk. And then when Theo leaves Edward ass bang for some search results and Bing's all like, I don't know, Microsoft owns me. It's going to take you four hours.

Yeah. I laughed at this part. I was like, this is a pretty quick Google, but okay.

Right. Like I could Google this very quickly, but that's fine for hours. It is.

we'll wait. Brother Theo comes to. To check on him. And you can tell brother Theo. Has some suspicions. here. He's he. It seems to me that he didn't know. And I was surprised that he didn't know. To me, it would make more sense for them to. Be told. But, you know, who knows? But he feels like. This person could be one of these dead personalities.

Yeah, he's just, he's not sure. And they say they run background checks when you apply for the job, but they don't actually run the background checks. They just want you to be able to agree to one.

Yeah. Yeah. This, This monastery is, you know, not uh, super secret location.

It's a nonprofit. They don't have the funds to just run background checks on every applicant.

Yeah. I get it.

Garibaldi finds Edward and tells him that the blood wasn't And he goes, why would a guilty conscious show up on a lab report?

That's a good line.

It is.

He mentions that he dropped his bag. in the hallway and it had it had the recordings in it. That he was making with Dylan and Lan, and So he needs that back. And Garabaldi says, you know, he'll, he'll try to get it back.

Meanwhile, Bing finally gets back to brother Edward and it's like, yo, you're a serial killer.

Mm. Yeah, this seems like a big flaw in the program. Doesn't it?

Like it would know who was asking.

Yeah. Yeah. It seems like. that The monks or at least, you know, like brother Theo should have been informed. So he could. Kind of guide brother Edward away from Google. Or something It it's a big connected world out there and all of these dead personalities could. Very easily. Find out who they were. Right.

You would think? Yeah, it's weird.

Yeah. So he was, he was Charles Dexter apparently. And that was The black rose was his calling card. We were told he's a serial killer. Do we, they tell us how many. Victims he had or types of victims. I don't

Uh, a bunch and I think he only killed women. Is the implication of align later in the episode.

It's very parallel with our Jack the ripper story.

Yes. Yes. I'm actually, Beth walked in and watched a little bit of this episode was like, oh, is he Jack the ripper? Is this that episode?

I mean, good guess

Yeah.

It's interesting. The parallels in that. Because of what the Vons did with Jack the ripper versus what we as humans did with Charles Dexter.

Yeah.

Interesting. so garabaldi and Sheridan. Have also found out That brother Edward is Charles Dexter. The whole story about how he gets there is kind of strange. It's not like he was placed by an agency. It sounds like.

Yeah. shortly after his mind wipe, he was put in like a halfway house thing or something. It was just kind of like transitioned to having a new personality. It sounded like. And then that place burned down. And he was presumed dead and somehow made it out and ended up at this monastery. And for me, This is the thing that doesn't make sense.

this is one part that doesn't work to me.

Because if everyone thought. Even like if the official records were all, like this person was placed into witness protection and then burned down and died. Right.

Mm-hmm.

What are all the families doing? Hunting this guy?

Right, right. Uh, is the implication that the families burned the halfways house down, that they figured out where he was and they burned it down and

I did not think of that.

But how did they, how did they find out he's still alive? I don't know that part.

Yeah, maybe they did it from a distance and watched them escape or something. I

Yeah, and then kept pursuing him. It is a weird logical leap. I liked my, like my initial understanding of this episode was that he had been placed with the monks by the agency. or, you know, whatever agency does this and that, that's how he got traced eventually and found. And. I, I don't know. I guess I like the, the idea of the agency. Going out there and finding.

No, that totally made sense to me. This is the thing that ruined that's the only bad thing I have to say about this episode to say something that was in my rating.

I I liked the way I remembered it a little bit better than the way it actually was. Moving

Anyways Edward locks himself up, basically. And Theo finds him, but can't physically reach him. And he's struggling with reconciling his past and his present. How can he repent for what he doesn't know he did? How can this be more humane than the death penalty?

It's a very good question.

Yeah. I mean, this shows making a serial killer, be a very sympathetic character.

Mm-hmm.

Which is weird.

It's a weird place to be because, you know, we, we know that he did these horrible things, but he didn't know.

Yeah.

he thought that he

he's a different person. He's quite literally a different person. It's a real ship of Theseus you know, like if you've completely erased someone's personality and their memories and given them an entire new life. You know, they are a different person.

Yeah.

He is a very different person because his old self. Wouldn't have felt remorse.

Right. So they basically wiped out whatever it was in that personality that didn't feel remorse and gave it a conscience and gave it remorse. And. it's, It's the same physical form, right? I mean, he's still all the same atoms organs and blood vessels. But he is not the same person.

Yeah.

And the the people that are pursuing him, they really want justice on his body. Not seeing that. Justice was already done with that mind like that mind is gone. That mind is no longer in the world.

But they don't care. Justice. Wasn't complete. Uh, Before that we do get a little bit about Garibaldi running in and finding Edwards bag. And some of the stuff he overheard was piped in through the PA.

Yeah, it wasn't in his head.

Yeah. Someone is actively doing this to him. Which is what we find out in the next scene, as the families of his victims are surrounding Has hooded figures.

Mm-hmm.

And uh, he knows what's waiting for him at this point. And he waits.

Mm-hmm. He waits in his own garden.

Yup.

Okay. So one of the things they figured out when they found the bag was that. Something is being done to torture him. And they know that the only thing that can break a mind wipe is a telepath. Right? I think brother Edward had mentioned he bumped into a sonari. So immediately they're like, oh, Sonari, telepath. And they start looking for this person. They find a sonari. telepath. He's kind of an asshole.

He's more than kind of an asshole.

Yeah. I didn't know that other racist telepaths just walked around. on the station.

It depends on their society's rules for their telepaths. We've seen Telepaths too.

Have we seen him just on the station yet.

Yeah, I think so. Yeah, there's a little bit about them where they're just called to service and. The Len, I think when, and that episode with the runaway telepath, I thought DLN reduced her to a memory telepath. And that episode.

know. I don't remember the,

I don't know, maybe. Maybe it should just talked about them enough, my

I know, I know we talked about them in that episode, probably we talked about Mbar and I think we talked about sonari a little bit. I found that interesting. That other racist telepaths are just walking around. On the station just fine. But human telepaths have to be in syco and they have to be monitored and they're in danger if They're running away like.

Yeah.

there's some some big, double standard thing going on.

Yeah, well, I mean, that's, that's, Sycor.

Yeah. Yeah.

But we know why St. Hers like that from our book club.

We do, if you didn't listen to book club, go listen to book club. But yeah, I, I think. That it's interesting that they don't bring up in this conversation with the telepath. That you know, they, they talk about breaking a mind. Wipe as illegal. you Know, Earth and Sonari are to be. buddies right now, And you kind of violated a big earth law. I think that's a problem, right?

I would think so. Uh, But. This guy just does not care because they won't be able to pin them on it. Because Uh, who their, what are they going to get them in? Bari? Telepath is and tardy Telepath. Isn't going to fuck with me. They've been borrowing are going to fuck with me and your human telepaths. Can't fuck with me. So. Eat shit, Sheridan. And then they're like, okay, well, we're going to throw a bag over your head.

Yeah. We happen to have the one telepath in the sector who is not beholden to Cycore and uh,

And she violates him.

She does.

She just gets in there, gets what he wants and he passes out from it.

Mm-hmm. At first, you know, is he dead, but she tells us he's not dead. He's just unconscious. He's gonna be fine.

We've seen so many, telepaths talk about the deep scan and the hurt and the suffering that it causes. We have so much lip service paid to that and to see her just running. And violate the centaury telepaths mind like that. It is very concerning. Like I'm worried about Leda. Right

She has no qualms about committing an assault. You know, I when um, Talia, we kind of used her to accomplish something in this sort of manner against her will. Right. In an episode, back in season two. We uh, put her in the same hallway as somebody in order to get some information. And Talia was very upset. About being used that way. Lida does not mind being used in this way at all. She's. Very uh, businesslike about doing this violence.

Yeah. Oh, sure. I gotcha.

Yeah, Let me turn the screws.

It is not okay.

Yeah. Yeah. And she doesn't know brother Theo. She doesn't have any relationship with him. She's just doing a favor for her buddies. So we find out that they've taken him to brown 42.

Yeah.

Or he is in brown 42. And.

Security rushes down. And we find him suspended his arms In Babylon five second best sex dungeon. Let's play slick clean. It's got lots of equipment. Like this is a big improvement over with Jack. The ripper was hiding. Hmm.

I think this was supposed to be a church. because like when, when he was waiting there, he was like kneeling at a little altar. And I think there was like some church. Stuff around it. Maybe,

This is a different

it in. Oh, okay. He's in a

because that room was kind of like brownish. This room is a little bit cleaner and. Not as drab. This room is like a little bit brighter colored. I

Okay. So they took him somewhere else to do the murder. Well, okay.

And this strung him up. He is, he is holding his Eli. He is done up to be like he has been crucified.

Yeah, it is

And

imagery. Isn't it?

yeah, it's not on accident.

Yeah, they they did this on purpose. He's been beaten to death. I I presume you know, his face is bloodied, probably internal bleeding. He's still alive enough to recognize brother Theo, After they get him down. It seems like, and I, I don't actually, I'm not actually Catholic, so I don't actually know the last rights, but it almost seems like he kind of asks for the last rights without, without,

totally last rights.

Yeah, this is a very last rights moment. If this, these aren't the exact, like last rights. And brother Theo. Sees him off with dignity.

Yeah, we get the last rates to commercial.

Yeah. Yeah. And he at least gets to tell brother Theo that now he knows he, he would've had the courage. to stay in, get SOE and not. Leave and. that's that's nice. He at least gets that Fulfillment.

imagine? Because we don't get this in the streaming era. That Babylon five stinger right after this happens.

Big emotional moment. Quiet Babble on five.

And then, you know, a Folgers commercial or something like it's, it's crazy to me that this is the commercial break.

How we used to watch TV is very interesting to think about isn't it. Cause I certainly don't watch it like that anymore. I don't watch anything on a network. So instead we get to watch YouTube and they interrupt us in the middle of a sentence. It's fine. But we come back from commercial. And I guess Lea has been out and about again and now she's back. because Ava, is welcoming her back. and

she's gone for two weeks. There's a little bit of a time jump.

Okay. Yes, we do have a little, little tiny time jump.

Yeah, we get some exposition from Ivanova that the trial of the murder of Edward. Has already occurred and finished.

Very fast, two weeks.

Yeah.

Two weeks. Can you imagine a trial in two weeks?

Well, he just admitted his guilt and they've just moved on.

Yeah. I think even when people admit guilt these days, it's not that fast.

won't let you for stuff.

Yeah. Yeah.

Even smaller stuff like a. I won't name any names here, but I had a friend get a DUI.

Yeah.

and the friend was like, I don't know how this is going to work. They're probably going to take my license away immediately. I figure. Cause I got a DUI. So can you drive me to the courthouse and like, hang out and take me home in case I'm not able to drive myself home. And I'm like, logistically, I don't think that's going to happen, but emotionally I will be there for

Sure. Yeah. Yeah.

And you know, judge called them up and he pled guilty and the judge refused to accept his guilty plea.

Fascinating.

Just outright was like, this is your first offense, this thing, this thing, this thing, get yourself a lawyer for this. And we'll see, I'll see you again in two months.

okay. Yeah. I mean, I feel like there's legitimate. Justice-y reasons that judges would delay things like that. So I to, I totally get It

Uh, the judge explained it a bit, the minimum sentence and stuff on a guilty plea is Apparently. And so if he pled not guilty and did other things he would have to, like, it was a whole thing. This was a long time ago to admittedly. But I remember the judge listing off like this ridiculous, like it was like a $20,000 fine or something. And it's just like, well, that's his take home in a year right now? You

Yeah.

we're college kids.

Uhhuh.

So.

Yeah. Yeah. I think that for me, the two week timeframe that they Quote here. Kind of. Reinforces for me, what a. um, I guess it's some of the, some of the like darkness and fascism of the, the earth government. because, you know, when, when the wheels of justice turn too quickly. uh,

You're not wrong.

Yeah. There's. opportunities for great, great injustice there. So the fact that it's been two weeks, the trial is over and we find out that his killer was also sentenced to a death, of personality. That has also already been carried out. That's really fast. It's really fast.

Yes. In the scene after this were introduced to brother Malcolm. A new recruit to the order.

Big moment for Sheridan here. As he confronts who brother Malcolm, is. brother Theo. Gives him a little pontification. First he gives uh, Sheridan the glass. Uh, It looks like a glass of origami thing almost. Little Crane.

glass crane thing.

Yeah. Yeah. That that Edward had been working on and we had seen Sheridan admiring it earlier in the episode. Theo gives that to him and then. After talking about forgiveness brings in brother Malcolm and Sheridan has to eat his words.

Yeah.

has to, Has to. Realize that he's gotta walk the talk that he was talking.

Forgiveness is difficult.

yep. And a great moment for brother Theo. to, if you think about it. That. He realized. This was the right thing to do for brother, Edward. To knowingly take this person in and make their life better. Even after all they had done. So last button on the episode.

Yeah. Meta grows gills. She can go hang with Kevin Costner.

I was like, look at her gills, look at the gills. Cuz that's something I really remembered from the character.

I, I will always go for the Waterworld joke.

I enjoy that movie in a way,

Uh, I enjoy that movie as well. I will say so in college, This is a Storytime. In college, it was my best friend's birthday. And he wanted to go tubing for his birthday. And we had set up this whole thing and we were going to go tubing for his birthday. And it rained really bad that day. Like we were all ready to go. We had a bunch of people getting at my place, you know, cause we were living together with their inner tubes and everything, and then it starts to downpour and thunder storm.

yeah.

storm. That's a bad idea. So instead I ran to the liquor store at like 11:00 AM. Bought a keg. Brought it back. We've all inflated. Our inner tubes removed all of the furniture from our living room. And we watched Waterworld in our swim trunks, sitting in tubes in the living room.

Yeah, that's fun. I like that. It's the only way to watch water world now.

Yep.

Yeah. So the other thing that's. About that scene, not just that she has gills. And I had to remind my husband that, you know, Kos is in that. Area that is the different atmosphere area. That's why the gills are significant. I don't think we've been in there for just a little bit. So Every, all the humans have had to wear like the, gas mask thing. And that's why K has an environmental encounter suit. Like. He's got a different atmosphere, theoretically.

Yeah.

new meat suit.

The.

interesting,

Yep. Interesting development. Well, what'd you think of this episode?

Oh, you know, our little tiny quibble with the plot aside for me, this is a be on five outta five

100%, five out of five.

Yeah.

It's so good. it does all of the right things for a Babylon five episode. It brings old plot points and stuff you had forgot from place setting from seasons ago. It makes you question your, your morals or ethics in a way. It makes a serial killer, a sympathetic character somehow. It will makes you question. Is this person even still a serial killer? Like what is the line? What is the boundary? What is the ship of Theseus of the mind? Like it is so good. Uh, This, this episode.

Yeah.

A plus acting.

I think there's some, some moments in the middle where you're kind of wondering. Is, is he breaking? Is this you know, is he becoming a serial killer? Like. You know, you, You kind of wonder before we find out that someone is doing this to him, you wonder if he's just like the, the old personality's just busting through. And he's gonna go do murders again or something. There's a little bit of mystery to it that I like. On top of the things to think about with ethics and morality and.

Yeah.

about it. So I. I'm Glad that we hit a Babylon five Outta five within the first four episodes of season

And next week we'll be talking about season three, episode five. Voices of authority. There's a new, powerful ally in the fight against the shadows. Sheridan's recent actions or question on earth. And some shocking information about Earth's president Clark. Is revealed.

Interesting.

That

I,

for an episode.

And it's not things that I specifically remember like, oh yes, this is that episode. You know, I'm just

Yeah.

I don't know.

Yeah, it's kind of ambiguous. But I know. With some of the stuff that is coming in the next five to six episodes. Some stuff comes kind of quick. Compared to where I remembered it before. And I will say it doesn't feel like the plot. Condensation has started here. That's a season four thing that we'll be talking about a ton. Because if you were unaware of listener, they didn't think it was going to make it to season five.

Yeah, it gets a little crammed. And About halfway through season four. You're like what?

You feel like it's halfway through season four, but it's episode like seven or eight.

Oh, my gosh, I

Yeah.

halfway point. So even

It felt like that I was shocked.

Mm-hmm.

some stuff happens in season four, but that's neither here nor there. And that's definitely not for next week. But what's for next And this week and every other week is thinking Jeremy Siegel. Thank you, Jeremy, for our lovely theme music, you can find more of Jeremy's At Jeremy Siegel, 40 two.bandcamp.com.

And thank you to angry duck time machine on Instagram for our podcast artwork.

Shoot us an email who are you? At gmail.com. Obviously we just did mailbag. So it'll be awhile before our next But shoot us an email and we'd be happy to read your letter on the air. And also join our discord community. It's fun.

Yeah, we're just always happy to hear from you. However you wanna do it. We'll even check our Facebook. If, if that's uh, Your jam.

I, we we've gotten like three messages on our Facebook ever. And I have answered all of them.

But I'm delighted every time I see it.

Yeah. I mean, we have a

don't

If that still exists, when this airs.

We'll see if

We'll see.

hasn't burned to the ground.

Maybe it

Twitter won't. Twitter itself. might, yeah.

All right. Well, we'll see you next week, internet.

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