S2E22 - F%#*ing Angels

Hello, and welcome to who are you? A Babylon five watch cast hosted by two former strangers. Now friends who have gotten to know each other and will continue to get to know each other while rewatching a favorite show from the childhood Babylon five. I'm sure fair.

And I'm Laura.

And today, Laura, I get to ask Who are

Well, we joked off pod for a minute before this that I should just answer with my name over and over and over again, but I won't do that to you listeners. You know, it's, it's been kind of a rough week for me. I had a lot going on at work and I just really like to relax when I get home. And so like lately I'm just kind of. Also a TV watcher. I'm just watching a lot of TV and shows and not as many books lately. I know we've talked about, you know, books I was reading before.

Yeah. What have you been watching?

Well, you know, we've been watching the new Star Wars, and, or I don't know if you've picked that one up, have you?

I have watched the first episode.

Okay.

And I've been waiting for time to watch it with Beth. We've had other things higher on our queue list. Then and-or, so we're kind of letting it build up a bit and I think we'll just watch it all. Probably given our current rate and what we're watching, I'm going to guess by Monday, we'll probably start watching it.

Yeah. So Andor dropped like three episodes on the first day

Yes.

and because our son is very like anti Star Wars right now, I think it's just cuz he wants to push back against what Daddy likes, you know,

Ah

he's been a, a bit of a pain if we try to watch it when he's still awake. So we haven't made it through all of the episodes yet, so nobody get any spoilers out there in a Discord, please. But I've been really impressed.

You liking it.

I, I am, I mean, I like Diego Luna but you know, it's kind of nice to see a Star Wars that is not prominently featuring light SAS and Jedi stuff right away.

Well, that was, what was the thing about rogue one? You know, the, the, a SQL to that, I guess. This is a prequel Was it like, oh, it's the first star wars. Brave enough to not have magic.

Yeah, I, I really liked Rogue One. I probably just balled my eyes out at the end of that movie when I saw it in the theater. It's like, so good. I know there's, It can be divisive and some people in the community don't like it, but I liked it a lot.

There's. Star wars as a community is the biggest group of adults broken up about their fee fees, about a kid show. Because star wars is for children. Y'all like, I love star wars. Don't get me wrong. And I've got a ton of a very, I'll talk about how great the last Jedi is for forever. But it is a children's movie. It is children's show. It is not for you. If you do not like it in its current form. It is not for you. That's okay. It doesn't all have to be for you.

No, I think the Star Wars community is hard to, it's hard to talk about Star Wars show without like, embracing the fact that, yeah, it's gotten a little weird and you know, you gotta just enjoy stuff.

Yeah. If you want adult Saifai watch star tracking nerd.

and it's okay to just enjoy Star Trek too.

A hundred Enjoy what you like. I'm not here to yuck. Anyone's Yum's I'm not here to shit in anyone's cereal box.

Yeah. So I, I'm really enjoying that sort of like nontraditional Star Wars. And then we also are watching the Great British Baking Show is back,

Ah,

don't know if you caught that on Netflix, but we're on another season.

I watched the first couple and I haven't been back.

Yeah.

but I do love that

I'm Aduring the group of people that they have this time, The Bakers. And of course I just love Noel Fielding, who is the, one of the comedians,

Yeah, I haven't watched any of his seasons.

Oh really? He's wacky and just wears the best clothes and I love him and of course, you know, Paul Hollywood is always so, he's not mean, but they think he's mean. Like, They, they consider things Paul Hollywood says mean, and I'm just like, God, he's being so nice. You all should feel so grateful. You're not on an American show,

Yeah, our reality TV contestants get thrown into pits of water and stuff. It is, it is a completely different world over here.

If you're in the food show, you have Gordon Ramsey screaming in your face like

Yeah. Or worse. You have Alton brown tying you up with literal bondage gear Wolf, asking you to cook things.

Right. Right. So these, these people are very lucky and it's a very calming show. Like, if you've had a bad week, you know, just get yourself some cookies, make a cup of tea, and watched a great British baking show and just have no stakes for a while. And just get to know, some delightful people.

I believe when you're watching the great British baking show, it's called biscuits and tea. For tax purposes.

Right, Right. So third show, gosh we are watching House of the Dragon. We don't get to it every single Sunday when it's coming out necessarily. It's been very interesting and different than Game of Thrones. It's one of those things, guys, you gotta just enjoy things.

Yeah. Yeah, no, I watched, I saw Matt Smith's sex scene in the first episode, and that was enough to make me never want to watch Dr. Who again.

Right, Right, right. So there was that one, but then, you know, we get a little further, and, you know, we actually had a woman director in that one. And it's definitely treated differently, the sex scenes than just like in Game of Thrones when you'd be in a brothel and just we're, we're all having sex for no reason. Like, like, and there's no reason to necessarily be having this conversation in the brothel, yeah. So, I don't know. I, I, I feel a difference in the vibe.

I have a feeling. It's something I will pick up when the first season is done.

yeah.

At this point.

If you're like, feeds are not trying to spoil you on it, there is no reason to necessarily have to watch

And they aren't. No my social media is, I've got a couple of friends who are on some shit posting groups and I see like comments they're making, where someone complains about something and they tell them to shut the fuck up. And it's great. But that's, that's all I I'm getting right now. but the show that we've been watching like intensely is for all mankind.

I have heard that. I need to watch it.

Oh, it's so fucking good.

I guess Oklahoma shows up in a prominent way at some point, and I need to see it like it's mentioned or something I've, I've heard.

So I won't say anything. I'm in the middle of season three right now. It is in very interesting format. I would say that it's, it's heavily. Serialized, but it's also very like seasoned cap Stoney.

Okay.

It's very interesting and how it does things I won't and it is alternate history. It's from Ron Moore. Who gave us Battlestar Galactica re reboot who gave us a bunch of deep space, nine. Um, All kinds of stuff. And he changes one event. In 1963. And just keeps going from this point. And so the show starts a couple of years after that. And the first scene is like the Russians It's the moon landing, right. But it's two weeks early in. It's the Russians.

so yeah, that's a few things. It's just, it's nice to be able to immerse myself in someone else's story.

I understand. I tend to go through cycles where I will be like, I'll play video games. Like that's what I do in my time off, like my free time for entertainment, I'll play video games and I'll do that like very intensely for like two months. I'll just be like nose down, playing destiny for three or four hours a day, every day. And then I'll come out of that and I'll read and I'll read like five or six novels.

Yeah,

Maybe twice a year, depending.

I feel like that's what I'm doing is I'm in a phase and I'm just in this, a little more passive entertainment phase and you know, it'll pass and there'll be something else. So,

so that's the TV that we're watching now, but what TV were we watching back in 95, Laura, I think we have an episode of Babylon five to review.

I think we do, and I think I put a li I'm not as passive when I watch this show, I wanna promise that to you,

Yeah. We've got season two. Episode 22, the fall of night. It's the season two finale. We know our Babylon finales get crazy. We know they happen at the end of the year. Also This episode was nominated for a Nebula award.

Very nice.

There was an episode earlier in the season that coming a shadows that was nominated and won. And I talked a bunch about this episode was also nominated. But they turned down the nomination. So not to as split the vote.

Oh,

that you get offered when you have like two episodes from a series, get nominated, they would reach out to you and be like, Hey do you want both? Or do you want 12 monkeys to get in? And JMS was like 12 monkeys Give it the numb.

Yeah, that's very magnanimous

When we put it like that, it is, but he did win because the vote wasn't split. So.

Yeah, that helps too, doesn't it? and coming of shadows was a really good episode.

good episode. I only opened on Kiefer. Just to remind us, this is existence. playing some space paint ball. And Sheridan is talking about some Suntory tactics here. He's training the team. In case they need to fight some centaury, which, oh, I wonder if that's foreshadowing.

I love that he mentions the gravity, that some alien races can take a higher G force and that they need to be aware of that when they're planning their attack or you know, planning their response. I'm not gonna say attack because you know, in theory we're just defending ourselves, right?

Yeah. I mean, we're the good guys, so yes, that's what culturally we have to do. That's what America has always done. Just defended ourselves in foreign countries. A hundred percent. And I'm proud to bring. Yeah. Also he notes that some cultures might not care about blacking out. Like, they'll just culturally. I'm cool with trusting the autopilot. Doing this crazy flip thing. If it means I get to shoot you in 30 seconds, when I wake up.

Yeah. I mean, I, I love that that sci-fi touch is not something that I would've noticed when I was a small person watching this. But since, since I've read The Expanse, like I've, I've understand more, a little bit of like the different effects Gravity has when you have more of it, especially, So they're, they're doing these space maneuvers and they get a, Sheridan gets a call from Avan. With an emergency in C and z.

After this, we cut over to linear and veer. Doing what appears to be a daily commiseration.

Yeah. This is super cute. They basically just worry, dump each other every day

Yeah.

about whatever they're worried about that their ambassadors are doing. And I'm, I was thinking about this. Have we seen these two together very much in this show up until this point?

I don't believe so, but I love

Yeah. I mean, if we've seen them together, I think it's been in the company of their ambassadors. But I like that they have each other to lean on and they, they do their dump and then they are like, Okay, same time tomorrow. Cool. So Ivon meets Sheridan in the locker room as he's complaining about the performance of the, I think it's Zada Squad and Delta Squad that are out there. But he had a whole bunch of the, the fighters out there. He wants the squads to train more and harder.

Uh, we cut over to Sheridan's office. And we find that that important thing that pulled him away from the fighter training is that the centaury have attacked both the drowsy and the POC Murrah.

Yeah, they're very calm when they're talking to Sheridan about this.

To calm.

Yeah.

But, I mean, it also might be expected in this, in a number of ways at this point.

I, I don't think we've seen any big emotion from APAC Mira at all. We know the draws can get a little animated. But yeah, they're, they're very calm for people who are concerned about being invaded.

After theme Sheridan in London meet Londa was dismissive that they are just stabilizing the region, establishing a presence. You know, the, the huge.

Sheridan is very personal in his address to lawn. he uses a lot of views, Accusingly Speaking almost as though he's speaking Toland and not about you, the Sinta government or you the Sinta race.

Yeah. Lando is kind of fed up though about this whole thing. Sheridan's just like, show me on a map. Where it ends. Like, can you show me on a map? Where it's going to end and Alondo just gets pissed. And That's the end Uh, he threatened Sheridan and leaves. We cut to Garibaldi, noting that Londo has changed dramatically. He's a little empathetic saying Rolando is riding a wild horse. He holds on tighter because he can't risk falling off.

Yeah. This is a very sharp contrast to how we saw him deal with Jaar in the last episode. You know, he doesn't even feel like he can talk tolando about this. He doesn't know who Orlando is. even though they were such good friends in season one.

After this a earth force, VIP arrives, Frederick Lance from the ministry of peace.

Mm-hmm.

JMS notes that this character is based on Neville Chamberlain. The British prime minister from 1937 to 1940, who had a policy of Nazi appeasement.

Yeah. It's not so

That worked out real well. No, he, he actually quotes him directly at one point in the

Yes, I remember that. I, I did highlight that in my memory. So, Mr. Lance, and he has a, a lacky with him of some sort. Someone else in the Ministry of Peace.

Yes, Mr. Wells, who should look a little

Mm-hmm. ,or at least

We've seen him before. Yeah, this is no rune. Without all the loaf.

He's got all the makeup buff. Very

Um, we do get. I was shocked at how much he looked like Kyle McLaughlin.

Yeah

we do get a, a fighter pilot. In the staging Uh, someone mentions a shadow ship and tells Kiefer.

Yeah. Someone's seen a ghost in Hyperspace. Someone has seen the ghost besides Keer.

Yep. And then uh, Mr. Lance and Mr. Wells arrive. And they uh, pay some lip service to being fascist bureaucrats. I tuned this scene out to be perfectly honest. I just was not interested in anything they had to

Yeah. I was just staring at the arm band on Mr. Wells. He's very clearly from the night watch.

Yes. Kiefer gets a drink and some shit from another pilot. Until he gets them to talking about the shadow ship sighting.

Yeah.

And the other, pilot's just like, don't go chasing waterfalls. Like this is a bad idea. Yo. Why would you want to see this thing again? It's been in my dreams.

He can tell from Keifer's description that he obviously saw it, like he knows exactly what this is, but he does not understand why Keer would possibly want to go see it again. He doesn't understand that, like need to prove that he's right.

Cut over to Ivanova and Lance who are talking about meetings with the ambassadors. And he says, he's trying to build a legacy for his children's children. And then the jump point opens on the far side of the planet. And a non heavy cruiser arrives and request sanctuary. They run a deep space scouting mission and managed to survive the main Suntory attack. They are probably the last non cruiser left.

So all, all of that fleet that we had, we have one left and it's currently hiding behind Epsilon three trying to repair its engines. And I think they're almost out of supplies.

Yeah. They're like diverting power away from the med bay to heal people. And to, to be able to keep their engines running. It's a whole thing. It is not good for them. They are in dire straights. Not rune comes to talk to Ivanova about her career after this.

Yeah. He's very complimentary.

Yeah. Oh, her record is

Yeah, he lays it on thick and she's you know, Up for command maybe in the next five years. But hey, if you help out night watch, maybe we could make that happen sooner. It's

Yeah. And she's just like, fuck

Yeah,

like, look, I'm not interested in personal gain at the expense of the trust of others. Just outright. She is not bashful. No. She tells him exactly what she thinks and he's just slow like it. Well, that's your opinion of Nightwatch then you clearly don't understand Nightwatch but that's okay. The offer remains on the table. It's all like, oh no, she clearly understands your bullshit.

she's like, I have, I've read World War II history and I know what's up here.

I have seen this documentary and I am not interested. She shows him the automated door. What a power move. Just open the door. Like, obviously I don't have this in my smart home, but I would, would a hundred percent use it to sass people if I

Yeah.

Sheridan calls up checar and tells them about the cruiser. About Mr. Lance's presence and purpose on the station. Checar has hoped for the first time in a long time.

But it already feels awkward, doesn't it?

Oh bet.

the fact that they did not ask to talk to any of the narn that are left should have been a big hint.

And how he is treated when he encounters. Mithril Mr. Lance later.

Yeah.

Really just. Tells you what's going on.

Mm-hmm.

But we'll get to that first. Zach goes to the rally and gets told he's not suspicious enough. He needs to be a better narc

Yeah. Everyone has turned in their list of, you know, five possible suspects or whatever, except for him and he's shamed for it.

Yeah, you didn't hear him say something possibly seditious. It's not like he's complaining about taxes. And I'm from America. So that seems very normal to

Right. Right.

Yeah, he gets publicly shamed into being a shittier person.

Yeah. He's, he's really peer pressured here. Right. This is very after school special vibes of, you know, we're all narcing on our neighbors and we are all piling on this one shopkeeper in particular, I think. And they force him to comply.

Meanwhile, Kiefer. Gets a data crystal with some exhaust readings from the crab ship. He's told the, seeking his own death.

Mm. not foreshadowing at all.

Nope.

Ivan and Lance talked to the Nonaligned worlds but Jaar as they're leaving, Jaar is trying to get his audience with Lance, even though he wasn't invited. And Lance gives him a big brush off

Yeah. He handles this in a way that HR would be proud of.

It is very corporate HR, isn't it?

Yeah. He doesn't say anything and leaves immediately.

Yeah, let me get my lawyer,

Lance comes to see Sheraton in CNC to tell us what's going on The earth Centauri non-aggression pact. Uh, He then quotes Neville, Chamberlain to commercial. Not foreshadowing at all.

yeah.

We come back to Ivanova and Sheridan talking in his office, they feel the non-aggression pact is a bad idea. Notes. It's almost a new year and gives them a holiday present. A piece of shrapnel from the Blackstar. Uh, Which is going to be really hard to explain to Dylan next time she's in his quarters.

Yeah, for real. And also just like, what a weird thing to get somebody. Here's this shrapnel. You know what might have been a dark time in your life when you killed a lot of people

I mean, she says, it's to remind him that the impossible is only that until someone proves it otherwise, Because this is something he's done by being able to destroy him in Bari

Okay. Okay. Does she say how she got this because,

does. Um, She goes on for a little bit that apparently a handful of pieces of it were held by earth gov and earth force. And she found like one that was like stored somewhere that no one cared about. requested

weren't all classified, You know

Yeah. Well, I mean, if you look at it, it's like a little metal bobbin. Like it's like a couple inches of metal welded. It looks like it's a joint of a wall or something like It doesn't look like it's a particularly important piece

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, I just thought it was funny. I was like, Man, that's, that's a thing that we're gonna do in the future as humans, isn't it? Like when we get in space battles and somebody is gonna go out there and chop up the remnants of the ships and sell them to people?

There is a game about

Yeah. I believe

hardship, space breaker. Is a game that is capitalist dystopia. You like are a starving person who can't afford anything and you take a job that's super dangerous. Dismantling spaceships in orbit that are like being decommissioned and you like pull all the salvage. That's important out. You throw all the metal in the metal thing, you throw all the plastic in the plastic thing and you make money and occasionally the ships blow up on you.

Oh man.

And then you get charged for when you die and you start the game, like a billion dollars in debt.

boy. Capitalist dystopia, huh? That,

It's a really good game. It is. I would not describe the experience as fun for most of But it is really enjoyable. And I like it. I like tearing apart ships because it's like, Ooh, I'm getting in the minutia of like tearing apart this ship. This is fun. Oh, there's the engine. Let me be really careful as I lower it. Oh, I exploded.

So if you don't get enough capitalist dystopia in your daily life, listener, just go ahead and join Affair over there,

Come to think of it. That's the game that I only played in the current presidential administration. And much like cyberpunk 20, 77. I couldn't attend the last. Just emotionally, I couldn't handle

Yeah, I can see that. I've watched Aaron play cyber punk 2077 and I get it Anyway.

Lando calls. He's mad as hell that they're sheltering a cruiser. Sheridan tries to warn the NAR that a Centauri cruiser arrives just fucking immediately. He gets on the horn is all like, Hey, this in Torino. Oh shit. They're here already.

Yeah. This stupid night watch, it's their fault.

Yes, this is where someone tells the minister what's going on. Someone from CNC is a snitch, and we know what happens to snitches.

Hmm.

they they tell the superiors things that get them in trouble.

Snitches or bitches?

Yeah. I'm a pacifist. For, for as much. Combat as I've enjoyed fake combat, as I've enjoyed in my life, a real combat is not

You're not out there cutting up snitches,

I do not want to hurt a person ever. It sounds

Yeah. I wish that lawn do felt that way cuz. Then, well, I guess the show would be a little bit more boring, wouldn't it? But

If everyone just got along the entire time. The Babylon project. Our success.

Honestly, after the last few years we've had Jae, I would watch that show and I would, I would put on a cup of tea and I would get me some cookies, and I would just watch people get along and I would love it. Oh boy.

I actually, I can't even say shit because I watch a YouTube series. It's literally that. Aye. I have a YouTube series. That's about rebuilding a boat from 19 29, 19 10. And it's literally just an hour of people woodworking and replacing things on this boat every two weeks for the last five years.

yeah, that sounds great. Aaron watches one. That's a series about a guy who bought a uh, ghost town, I think it's in California or Nevada or something. You know, it used to be a, a silver mining place and he's just like fixing up the ghost town and that's his YouTube channel. and I, I, similar vibe, I think.

A hundred percent similar vibe. You should send me that link. I'll send him the one I have.

Will do

Anyways, a fighter scrambled to protect an escort cruiser away from the

Yeah. You really almost think here that they're gonna be able to do it right. You're like, we, Cuz we had that Menari ship that showed up and was threatening to fire on the station and then it never did. And you think, Okay, we've seen this sort of situation before and we've gotten through it, it's gonna be okay until it's not

It's not really. Okay. Lando calls again and shared and tells them how it is. They're going to use deadly force it. If they fire on anything like I'm going to protect this fucking station. Fuck off, hangs up the phone, drops the mic. The cruiser is protected while it's during this Lance is mad as hell and tries to make it all about

Yeah. This is where we should keep these people off of fucking C and C. Right.

Right. You mean an old white guy busted in and tried to make it all about him. Huh.

into somewhere that he really shouldn't be, that he doesn't belong.

definitely doesn't belong.

Yeah.

Not his space to

huh?

Huh. The Suntory, fire on the NARKN and Ending a standoff that holds for a moment. B five loses a pylon, which is something we've seen in the opening scene for forever.

Finally we get to see why when it happens.

The non escape and Babylon five destroys this entire

Yeah.

There's a little bit about JMS talking about how space combat works in the Babylon five universe from the use net and that is fighters, engaged fighters and capital ships, engaged capital ships.

Okay.

And the reason it works that way. And you'll notice the Suntory did not launch fighters. Is exactly this because the fighters were able to focus on the cruiser and take out its weapons, leaving it defenseless for Babylon five to destroy.

Okay.

So the fighters, because they're up close are able to get in and target key systems. Disabling them allowing Babylon five to fully destroyed destable and then inadvertently destroyed because they didn't try to destroy the cruiser eight explodes after the fighting is done. But that's why the combat works that way is because if you don't have fighters, To protect your. Vulnerable systems on the big ships, the big ships

Okay. Okay. So theoretically you could engage your fighters with a, a big ship and say the big ship doesn't have fighters, and you could use them to disable those systems and not have to destroy it. But yeah, that's not what

I mean when it's actively firing on you and you've got a quarter of a million lives. I wrapped in 30 million tons of steel.

Yeah. I mean, that's a, that's a

All alone in the night. Yeah.

Yeah. So Zeta Squadron made it through the jump gate with the Nan ship. So crucially, they are in hyperspace right now,

That will be important later. But we cut to his office were shared in asserts to Lance and Wells, and he did nothing wrong. And he's right. He quotes regulations. He's got the receipts. He's all, like there was a distress call from a species we're not at war with. I'm obligated to answer it. And

General

Suntory attacked the station. Yup. They tack the station. I'm obligated to defend it. I did tell me what I did wrong. You can't. And then. Well, is this even like, yeah, the joint chiefs are with you on this one. You, you did everything you were supposed to, according to the rules.

But.

But you shouldn't have been offering Sanctuary to that non cruiser. That was the line.

Yeah.

Uh, if you had said something before we could have told the Suntory and they could have come and just taking it and taking it back to the non-home world and nothing bad would have happened.

they all would've been fine, right? I mean,

humans would have been fine.

hmm, indeed.

I don't know how many people died on that pile on. They don't talk about it.

nobody's in the

I'm going to guess. I'm going to guess. No one. We don't really know what purpose those serve to be perfectly honest.

Yeah.

We've never seen a ship dock on them or anything. I imagine a capital ship with Docker. No. Even when we see the capital ships, like when the earth cruiser shows up the Agamemnon and stuff, the deep space cruiser, they're all side by side, they don't

Yeah. They come over on transport or something.

Yeah. Yeah. They take shuttles over in between. So I don't know what those pylons are for. They might not serve much of a purpose.

full

Besides looking cool. Yeah. I mean, that might be, it might just be drone storage. dead drone storage now.

It's all gone.

Yep. Anyways Sheridan reminds them that how politically inconvenient it is. It's not against the rules. And the only cost of this in the end is going to be shared and pride. He's going to be forced to apologize formally. At the Zen garden, because it's a nice convenient area that is nonpolitical in front of a bunch of ambassadors. And this whole issue will be dropped this and You are willing to drop it. And the name of peace from our new non-aggression pact.

If you just say you're sorry.

Just say, you're sorry. Zeta squad continues to escort the non cruiser away from Babylon five and hyperspace. When Kiefer gets a signal that matches the shadow ship.

Yeah.

off to investigate.

He went alone.

Well, he is an

You never do that. Has he never seen a horror film?

Shit. Sharon and gets in his dress uniform and almost practices and apology. Before heading off to the Zen

I love this cuz I would absolutely monologue this same apology in, you know, certain circumstances.

Oh, yeah. And I have, I have sat in the mirror in the bathroom going. I'm sorry, you're a fucking idiot.

Yeah.

Yup.

I, I hate it when people do the non apology in, you know a public or like in, in an interpersonal situation. They're like, I'm sorry you feel that way. And it's like, Honey, that's not an

Well, that that is not an apology. I'm sorry. I made you feel that way.

Uhhuh, Yeah, that takes some ownership of it, but I'm sorry you feel that way. Puts ownership back on the aggrieved party.

Exactly. It is not, that is not an apology you have to, if you do not take ownership of anything, it is not an apology. This has been kindergarten 1 0 1, your ferret, Laura.

But in this case, I am absolutely on shared side with it. He doesn't need to apologize.

I agree and he knows it's a sham. And I think he's just working it out of

Oh, yeah. yeah. yeah. He's just getting it out in front of the mirror so he doesn't do it in the garden.

Yeah. Which I also understand, you know, sometimes you just have to sit in your car and

Mm-hmm. .Mm-hmm.

Anyways. Kiefer finds the shadow ship and starts to record it as the ambassadors gather. We see Dzhokhar in the bushes.

my God. Ja. Car's just like hiding behind a fern. And

I need this, Jeff, I'm sure it exists. I need it. I need it for teams chat. I'm going to start using it instead of Homer Simpson receding into the bushes. It's great.

He's not, not subtle by friend. And I love how, because we haven't filled this scene up with a bunch of extras either. So we see like lawn standing over here and jaar hiding in the bush. And I'm like, there's no way that lawn doesn't know he's there. like this is a

Right.

We could have used a few more extras to like make it beefier and make it

Feel packed. It's a really small set. Like this set feels crowded when it's more than dilemma. Plus one. Anytime. We've had three people in this set. It's been all like, oh, it's a little tight in the Zen

Yeah. And we have a lot of the ambassadors here. You know, we have Kosh, we have lawn.

Some drowsy some pocket Murrah. There's all kinds of ambassadors

I wonder how they feel right now.

Probably not great, but they probably don't know what's about to happen.

Yeah. Yeah. They don't, they don't know also that, you know, Sheridan doesn't wanna do this apology either. Like that

It's true. I'm sure they will only delivers

Yeah.

But.

Yeah. But, but they, they kind of are probably on unstable ground here. They know that they've been attacked. They know that the Centara cruiser's been shot down, but they don't know.

talked to someone from earth gov like, you know, like the. The earth is about to get involved in. Sharon's about to make a statement, might be their

They might be really excited right now. Like hopeful,

Yeah,

not,

centaury just attacked an earth station. Like really, like they might be thinking Earth's about to declare war on the Suntory. That is not out of the realm of

Yeah. Oh man. To be inside their minds in the scene.

Right. I mean, why do you think your car's there? If Dzhokhar knew that Sheridan was there to just apologize for attacking a centaury cruiser, you think you would bother showing up.

mm

He'd be in his room, smashing something.

Yeah. Good point.

to throw someone to.

Yeah. But at least, you know, he gets to tell Yvonne though, like, I support what he did. but yeah.

We get a couple of cuts in here between the Zen garden, Keitha and Sheridan. So we go back to Keitha and he gets straight up to sit a

Yeah.

Like this ship does not, we don't see like thing. The laser beam cut his ship in half. We get him. And if you freeze frame it, you can see him actually melt.

Yeah. It's straight up like screaming flesh off bones, like,

Yeah. JMS was a little too happy with how this visual effects turned out. When reading over his notes. Oh, he was quite proud to put out that he disintegrated this dude.

Do you think he had a beef with the actor

We had a beef with the character. The character was forced upon him by the studio.

Oh, they wanted a

He didn't want Keitha in the plot at all. They want. Yeah. They wanted a handsome young man who was a fighter pilot.

That was a kind of a nineties thing, wasn't it? We were coming off Top Gun. We had a thing

Yeah. Mark Hamill was just wing

Yeah. Okay.

Or was about to be wing commander was that Freddy prince Jr. In that movie too. Number in that right. I don't know. I haven't seen when commander Ben just gasped. Anyways. Sheridan boards, a tram he's on there with a bunch of other one stop later, everyone else gets off the tram and there's a centaury bomb waiting for We know it's a centaury bomb because like all of their weapons, it has their fucking hair on it. For some reason.

And this dude is, this dude who planted this bomb is not subtle. He like mean and mugs Sheridan, like glaring, which I mean, I guess Sheridan probably just chalked it up too. Well, I did just destroy their ship. But yeah, he's not subtle with his looks.

Not at all. He overrides the emergency door and jumps out.

Yeah.

Now he is in the center

Mm-hmm.

The five's artificial gravity is caused by the spinning of the station. So he's not quite in zero G. He is slowly drifting. But it is not like one-to-one with how you would expect gravity to work. So there's time. I would say The time of drama, like it is, it is particularly enough time to be very dramatic.

The ground is spinning up at him. Right.

Yeah.

So that's

Well, even avant have a notes. That's what will kill It's not the fall that will kill him because the gravity is so weak here. It is the speed that Babylon five is spinning at that he is not, that is what will cause his

It will just rush up to meet him. Like literally

It's like getting hit by a car going 60 miles per hour.

Mm-hmm.

Aveva calls for jet packs. We don't get to see them. It's a damn shame, but I really wanted the beef five jet

Yeah. Like even if these people were just like suiting up and getting close or, you know

I want to know what these jet packs look like. Are they rocket boots? Like, what are we got? Is it just straight up from Russia with love? Like, I want to see this jet pack. But we don't. Dylan goes to Kosh and tells them that they must act. And Kosh gets out of their suit flies to catch the falling Sheridan.

Yeah, the big cost reveal.

angels.

Uhhuh,

All right. Let's let's talk about this.

Go for

There's there's a ton to unpack in this single scene.

There is,

So. Kosh flies out of their suit. And Dylan is all like, oh, that is AMM Bari angel. Right? The drowsy, see a drowsy creature of light, you know? Everyone sees what is culturally appropriate for

Jaar sees an an angelic narn figure. Yes.

yeah, whatever. You know, Londo sees nothing. We find out Lando looks up and it doesn't cut to anything because he doesn't see anything. Everyone's like, whoa. And he looks up, he's like, yeah, Sheridan's falling. This is fucking weird.

Uh Huh. Yeah.

So. Fucking angels. I've got some notes from JMS. I can do them now. Or if you want to say your piece on this bit beforehand, go for

The only piece I have on this bit is I do have a question.

Yeah.

Do you feel like it could possibly be open ended at this point? On what if Lawn saw something but he didn't want to admit that he saw something or,

In terms of the narrative. Yes. In terms of JMS, speaking about it afterwards, he's quite definitive. Londo actually could not see

And I remember it being definitive. I feel like at some point, maybe, maybe later in the third or fourth season or something, it comes back and he like sincerely admit, Not seeing anything, but the way he says it at the end of this episode, part of me was like, hmm. The way he said it, it seemed almost like it could have been him just denying he saw something. So I, I almost like to think of it that way, like leaving that a little more opened ended for longer.

If you did not listen to the spoilers section, Of the guest episode that we did with gray 17. Yum. Yum. Babylon five for the first time. I'm missing at least one or two of the podcasts that joined us. That, that episode that we talked about, the league of not online podcasts. Which I love that Uh, I brought up something there in relation to this scene specifically about hopes for the reboot, which is to flip it onto the, and I hope the four lines are devils. I I'll put that in here now.

Yeah.

JMS has notes for use net. So. Apparently these aliens are very similar to the aliens in the abyss. I haven't seen the abyss since I was like 10 and I don't remember what the aliens looked like. Um, This is apparently a common criticism of the four line visual effect.

Hm

notes. It is not intentional, but Steve Berg. Who did the Varo on effects also did the alien effects in the

hmm.

So.

it's a, it's a signature style.

Yeah. He also notes that humans have different beliefs would see. This wouldn't necessarily see a Christian angel.

Okay.

They would see something appropriately, an appropriate variant of some variety for their belief system. We only see Sheridan's view of Kosh. Right. All of the views of Kosh are the exact person that we see making the comment, their view of cash,

that makes you wonder if Ivanova saw something slightly different being of the Jewish faith. Yeah.

She probably did. And we don't see that. Probably because it might've been needlessly confusing. And it also kind of contradicts what Dylan says in a moment. In a, in a scene or two down the line where she's all like, according to their type.

Mm-hmm.

But it is strictly your belief. This is an active thing, cautious doing.

Mm-hmm.

Is the other thing is when Kosh reveals. Themself. To a single person, it is like a reflex. But to have a different persona and vision to so many other people. Is very straining on cosh.

Oh,

Which is why Kosh gets back, goes back in the encounter suit and then pieces, and then hides out in their ship for the remainder of the time that we have the season. Like there's no cash anywhere. It's also very clearly stated that only Dylan and Sheridan. Are aware that that was Kosh.

Ah, so everyone else didn't see the encounter suit come up? They didn't

They were yeah. Delana and Kosh. We're in like maze, right?

yeah.

So they were hidden from view of everyone. So you, no one else saw CAUTI leave the encounter Kat Sheridan, and then come back down. They just saw the angel in the sky catching Sheridan after the explosion.

I wonder, you know, we, we had a previous episode, a few episodes back where Le showed back up and she went to see CO and she asked to see Cosh and he allowed, or you know, they, I don't, I use he just by default. Cuz I think the show does that a lot too. But,

The show, the show uses he It's pretty clear from everything about them, that the are non-gendered. I've been trying to make a point. I think that is something that would change in the modern

absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. So they did show themselves to lead and I wonder what she saw. I don't, I would like to know, I would like to know

I think Lita sees the true four Alon. To be perfectly honest.

not the Angel projection. And maybe that's part of her experience as a telepath that she would get that. The telepath can see through the mind and the

Yeah.

right? So,

Would know that it was a projection. Yeah. That. That's my thought there was nothing. In this episode, at least confirming what Lita did or didn't see that I could find. Any of the notes and stuff I was reading. Um, I do have one more thing. Which I think is very interesting. This is probably the most interesting bit to come out of the use net notes.

Okay.

Obviously we've confirmed that 401ks have been visiting earth. We knew that they were on earth in the 18 hundreds last

Yeah. Stealing serial killers and rapists and stuff. Cool.

yeah. You know, great job. Good guys. Anyways JMS notes kind of like. He kind of just drops this very subtly. I But he's all like, well, it'd be a lot easier for them to exploit the belief of angels than to create it.

Hmm.

Logistically. Which I think is super interesting. Because there, if that is the case, if that's the rural NMO is to find a creature of light and then exploit it as they're the four lines, right. Or whatever, you know, when they're influencing a society. Why do all these societies still have angels then?

Mm-hmm.

That, that that to me is super fucking culturally interesting from an anthropology standpoint. Because when you say, okay, well, all these cultures have angels because the Varo on showed up and made angels in their culture. That makes sense. That's why something, and people's so far in so different where they couldn't possibly influence each other. Through the vastness of space. Would have thorough threats in their cultural background, in their religious iconography. Right.

Right.

They don't have, they don't have angels apparently.

I could see Exploiting that though. And if I was a advanced species like the Volans, you know, you know, great old emperor, what's his face shows up and in a beam of light and, you know, they could do it

Yeah.

for sure.

Yeah, but they didn't clearly.

yeah, yeah,

Otherwise Londo would have seen, you know, the first emperor. It's just like, how does that happen?

you know, it would've been wild though if Lawn saw Emperor Turin, the one

Oh, I got turn back.

if,

Oh, Oh, that would have been so fucking wild. Oh,

man, it's a reboot idea for you.

Right JMS take that. Treat us and let us know you're taking it just for our personal satisfaction. Not so gage.

We don't, claim any rights to this idea. We

Yeah.

anybody You could.

Yeah. Yeah. I don't want you to worry about getting sued, but just, just know, just know that's not just floated in the ether. Let's brain here, even though you probably will never listen to this fucking podcast. That's fine.

fine. Yeah.

I hope you're busy making the reboot and not listening to this podcast.

Same.

So DLN visit Sheridan to talk about what

Mm-hmm.

The shadows will see the forelock. Alon, they know this, what this is. They see this as the world once entering the fray. But so long as they feel hidden, like the shadows aren't revealed. They won't emerge. Oh, do you hear that, Laura? Do you that beeping?

Huh

Do you hear that There's a ISN news report at this very moment. Um, apparently hot shot pilot, worst character before season five, accidentally provokes intergalactic war earlier than anyone wanted.

Oh no. Talk about going out in a blaze like, whoop boo boo. Just reveal the space. Ghost

Right.

Mm.

Zuora has not pleased. Before all that, though, we get a bit of setup. Over a minor key theme on strings how fucked everything

Mm-hmm. Yeah. We get the announcement of the non-aggression treaty. And while we're, you know, getting all this, how fucked are we going into this New year exposition? We watch Zach as he watches that shopkeeper that he threw under the bus, get arrested by the Ministry of Peace and there's a very threatening put on that door. Pending allegations of sedition, I think it said. Yeah.

does.

Pending allegations of sedition on

Just what you like to

a storefront. Not ominous at all.

No, nothing to see here. Totally normal move along.

Yeah. So let's see, we're wrapping up our second year on Babble on five. Not a lot better than that first one.

Well, I mean, we say that the mission has failed.

Yeah.

Babylon five is no longer. The last, best hope for peace. Instead this next year, this next season, it will turn to the last best For victory.

Yep. We're gonna get that new theme. So

That's sweet, sweet new theme, season three. Can't wait, but we do have a little bit before then. Next week, we've got our season two recap

Mm-hmm.

Where are we talking about that and input that hopefully y'all sent us before you're listening to this, because if you're listening to this now and you're deciding to send us some season to recap, It's too late. We were recording an episode in two days and this isn't coming out for another week and a half, so, oh, well Um, You can send us some thoughts and we'll get to them. When we do our next mailbag segment, a couple of weeks into season three.

Your thoughts are always welcome in the Discord.

We always, we appreciate everything. We love talking B five with everyone in our community of fans. We really appreciate all of you. After the season to recap, we're going to have book club where Laura and I will be talking about dark agenesis. The birth of the Sycor written by uh, J Gregory

Mm-hmm.

I'm looking at it on my bookshelf right now, unread in my to read pile, I have a little to read It's sitting on right

Yeah. These are, these are quick reads though. They're, they move just like an episode, if I remember correctly, so.

We'll have that. And then we're going to have two weeks off as is our season ending treat to ourselves. then we'll be back with season three.

Yeah. I can't wait. Such, such good material coming for us in season three.

Season three. Is a really strong season. I'm really looking forward to season three, I don't think it's a stretch to say it's probably some of the best Babylon five.

Yeah.

Especially given season four. Is kind of crunch time because they didn't think they were going to get seasoned five. And then season five is, well, it's not crusade.

Yeah. Season four. I remember it just being a little awkward because we crunched some stuff up, but I remember them being there being some gems in season four too. So

Oh, for sure. And there's, there's a lot of bangers in season four. There's a lot of great speeches in season four. There's a lot of great moments in season four and I'm looking forward to it. But we'll get there in, you know 30 weeks from now. We'll be talking about season four,

Yeah.

32 weeks from now. We'll be talking about season But for now. We'd love to thank Jeremy Siegel. For our lovely theme music, you can find more of Jeremy Siegel's work at Jeremy Siegel. 40 two.bandcamp.com.

and thank you to Angry Duck Time machine on Instagram for our lovely podcast artwork.

And we mentioned the discord. The show show up there, hang out, chill. Be a fan of Babylon five with us. Cause we'll just geek out about B five all the time. Hang out in our meme ward section talk spoilers. We're here for it.

If you need that Discord link, you can get it at the email

Yes. Who are you? be5@gmail.com. Shoot us an email. We'll get you that discord link. You can also find it on our Facebook group. I will occasionally post it to the Twitter. When I remember that we have a Twitter.

Yeah.

has been more lately because it's been very active. With the uh, the league of non-aligned podcasts, which has been great to see, we love our Podcast fam. Links to all of that is in our other podcast folder in our discord as well.

Yeah. Okay.

you next week, internet.

Bye.