S2E17 - College Gods

Hello and welcome to who are you? It's a Babylon five. Watch cast by a couple of strangers who are continuing to get to know each other over one of their favorite shows from their childhood Babylon five I'm Laura.

And I'm Ben I'm back. I wasn't just a one time bit. Apparently.

Yes. So we're doing something different today. Listener, we have been back with us. So this is due to Jae thought he had a COVID infection a month or two ago. And we went to star Trek, Las Vegas, and then he got a real COVID infection. My friends,

The third time he's had COVID.

Yeah, we're so sorry for Jafa. His, his voice was really shot this week. We tried to put it off, but we needed a ringer. So our favorite super fan Ben is back

yay.

So tell us Ben, since you and I are essentially strangers at this moment.

that's pretty true. Yeah.

who are you?

Well I am a. Former podcast host that's Jafa and I used to have a podcast together. That is something we did for over a hundred episodes. He has talked about it. And that is why I was very, very excited when he started to do a new one. And also I am a new Babylon five fan,

A new fan, huh?

Yes, I didn't didn't watch it. As I watched, I saw one episode as a kid, I was very, very young and it was on the TV at my grandmother's house. And she had one of those TVs where she did not have cable. She had one of the big antennas that you had to turn a dial and it would point the

Oh, yes. Yes. Mm-hmm. mm.

and she could. Three channels sometimes. And I was at her house for a weekend and was trying to watch TV. And I saw an episode come on and I was like, why isn't checkoff wearing his star Trek uniform?

Oh, so it was the ER episode.

this is clearly a star Trek. It's in space. There are aliens walking around what is going on. And I was very, very confused. But it was on my, my to-do list as I like got older and learned, you know, oh, it's this different show. And since you guys started the show I started watching as well along with my wife and we have as of a few months ago watched the whole.

oh, wow.

So since you guys started the show, we have binge watched all of Babylon five. I really love it. There's a lot of really, really fun stuff going on. There's some really interesting tones and different stuff going on. It's also interesting seeing a sci-fi show where it's more or less one person's like thing

Sure.

where you, where you don't have the other, you know, shows things where it. Hey, I'm the writer for this episode. And I really want to talk about X it's like, well, that doesn't make a ton of sense. But okay. I guess we'll, we'll do your weird talking about whatever subject you wanna do and we'll shoehorn it down to the character that makes the most sense to

we're looking at you star Trek.

yeah. Well, and I mean, that also happens in, you know battle SAR Galactica, or, you know, other stuff where it's. Why are we doing a weird, organized crime episode? Like, is this really what everybody should be worrying about? Is this really the sort of thing you would send fighter pilots to deal with? but uh, yeah, it was a delight. And then ever since then, I have been on a couple of sojourns to different places to help Jae round out his Babylon five merch collect.

Yeah, that was a really good get, I love it.

Yeah. So that's, that's it. I am a person who loves podcasting really glad to be on the mic again. And as of little over a year ago, a Babylon five convert.

Wonderful. Wonderful. I didn't realize you were a new convert. I thought that you were like us and you'd watched as a child, so

no I I'm, I'm new to it. And it's, it's one of those fun things where, oh, man, I've really got into the show from 25 years ago. Who wants to talk to me about my, all my, my weird theories and you know, why will nobody talk to me about Ja car? Being friends with Jae and then the wonderful who are you community? I now get to talk to people about those things and make jokes and laugh at funny memes.

yeah, you are in the right place. My friend, I'm so glad that we. A home for that community. well, so Ben and I were talking before off mic that it's kind of sad. We don't get Jafa for this episode, cuz this is one of the big ones today we're talking about in the shadow of Zaha doom. This is season two, episode 17 per HBO, max order.

It's right. Getting near the end of season two.

We really are. And I think that we might be approaching our 50th episode. I'm not totally sure, but

In with the interstitials and stuff. It's gotta be close

yeah, we're getting close. So we're getting close to the end of season two and we're getting close to 50th episode, so we'll have to do something special, right. I dunno. We'll see. should do you keep working on him? Okay.

I I'm doing my best.

but we opened this episode. We are with Zach and Garabaldi. And they're discussing the current Narn refugee problem while NANS are just like streaming in behind them from the docking bay.

Yeah, it's wonderful. When you get a, a start with space TSA, not great when it's wounded refugees and also you get this really I think important note from Alan, where he's talking about how we don't have the resources to take care of these people. And that might, you know, that ties into something that happens later in the the episode where earth dome has a bunch of resources for other stuff, but not for war refugees.

Right. Yeah. I've, I've got a note about that too. I, I did catch myself thinking about that. There was another episode where Jair brought up that I guess they were so short on extras that they kind of just had people circling in the back. And I was like, God, I hope they're not doing that in an non refugee scene. Seen

I mean, it, it would work they'd, you know, just have the walls stop right there and just keep going around.

And just limp on the other side, you know, move your bandage real quick. I don't think they did that here, but I couldn't get the image outta my mind. So yeah, they're, they're just feeling swamped under the captain's directives on how to handle these people. We cut to VE

Yes,

Mr. Morgan.

best scene in the episode, one of the best scenes in all of all of Babylon five. I'm so glad I get to be here for it.

Yeah, he, he delivers one of the most iconic lines in this entire series in this very scene, like at the very beginning of this episode. So apparently he sent for ambassador Maari, but Peter ick must have been busy this week cuz he is not in this episode.

Nope. Yeah. This is one of those things where it's just like, hasn't at this point, hasn't LDO proven he can do his job just as well from home. Why does he need to get called in? To have a meeting face to face, like don't they have this communication stuff down. Like, I don't know, maybe this is unrelatable something nobody can, can identify with, but having to go into your, you know, your halls of power when you've proven you can do your job from here.

Yeah. And I mean, there's, there's like zoom there, right?

Right?

you can just, you can just get on the zoom anytime that you need to talk to malar. Why does he have to go? I don't understand. Yeah. So weird. So weird. So Mr. Mor tries to find out what veer wants. And that's when we get the best line of the entire series

I want your head on a pike. I wanna live just long enough to see you die.

Yeah. Which is uncharacteristically aggressive for our man veer.

yeah, it is. It is a very vicious side of fear. That I wonder, like we don't see a ton of VE without lawn.

mm-hmm,

And I wonder if it's outside of the Tari structure that he's used to,

Mm-hmm

suddenly feels a little bit more free to be himself or say like the things he really wants to say,

Yeah,

he is definitely a guy who's been. He has been put upon, he has seen the stuff going on in the last episode. He's just like, he, he even came out and said like, Hey, you can change the path you're on. You know, you can do different stuff. And Lada was like, nah, he's just like, I hate, I hate all of this. And you know what Mor I hate you.

Yeah. I, I read a little bit of research since I didn't have Jafer here to carry me

Yeah, I did not I did not read any old old angel fire websites to prepare for this. I'm sorry. You're not getting that fair content.

No, no, not expected of a guest. You're a guest at our house. You don't have to do all the research But I did read a little bit that JMS said that he really wanted veer to feel like that guy that gets underestimated all the time. And this is his moment where we realized that we've been underestimating him a little bit. it definitely comes across in this scene.

And we get two count 'em two veer waves and it, and it, those always make me happy.

Yeah, I can't wait for more. So he does pick up some information from Mr. Borden. That's for Orlando, presumably, and then veer takes off.

Never learned what's on that crystal, do we,

no, certainly not in this episode. Yeah. presumably we'll figure it out later. Something will come up later. I would hope. Who

Or it could just be, Hey, this is an ongoing thing. The, the Tendra are continuing to connect into each other lawn is becoming more and more ingratiated.

yeah, we, we just gotta touch in with lawn all the time cuz we need him. Yeah. And the next thing Garabaldi delivers some bad news to Sheridan about the refugees. Sheridan agrees that, you know, we can ship the healthiest ones out right away.

Yep.

Let's save med lab for those that are sickest in dying. He refuses to let the dying die in the docking bay. So it's very humane of him. Garibaldi points out that earth stone is going to say that we don't have enough money for this. It's that sort of age old problem. Right. Sheridan doesn't care and he's, he just happens to be, while he's in his office here, flipping through some files from the IOUs on the TV and sorting through his wife's old stuff.

Who pops up. It's Mr. Mor and Sheridan doesn't know Mr. Morden, cuz he wasn't in the pilot.

yeah, Sheridan hasn't encountered Mr. Mor yet. And as far as Sheridan knows, this is a man who should be dead.

Exactly. Yeah, this is just another one of a pic, a group of pictures of dead people, as so far as he know.

Mm-hmm mm-hmm you know, he's incredulous off to theme and then back from theme. He he's asking you know, why didn't the station's computers detect this dead man on board?

And for me, this starts like a whole long line of why did no, like the shadows and Morgan seem to be very together. Like they know their game plan and stuff, and it's just like, Why doesn't he have a fake ID? Why does he have the same haircut? like, why didn't he just report that he was alive? Like he has a whole like cover story. Why didn't he just come back and say, oh man, I got knocked out and I'm back now. Everything's okay. You know, why, why did, why did they do nothing?

Yeah. This is a bit of a pothole for me. And I think it's also a harder one to ride around in today's era. Like in today's era, you'd have to. to involve the shadows in like some fake identity stuff. Right? Like it, it would be a different kind of reveal if you were writing this plot today. I think because we know now that computers can do those kind of checks really fast in the nineties, you could probably talk an audience through this and they

Right. Like the idea of the paperwork got lost,

Yeah. yeah, that was definitely an easier sell in the nineties.

Absolutely.

So Sheridan has got his hackles way up. He orders Garabaldi to find Mr. Morton immediately. So the whole station security is gonna be crawling for this one dead guy. We cut to Talia. We're gonna have Tali in this episode, haven't seen her much in a bit.

Yeah. She's actually involved in two storylines in this one,

Yeah. She gets to be in both kind of the, a and the B sort of she's got a guest in her quarters, which I thought was kind of weird for somebody to show up at your quarters, but I guess it's a station and you don't have a lot of

You would assume she'd have an office somewhere

Yeah. Cuz like her bed is right

telepath feels like they should have like at least a vestibule. The front half of my apartment is my office. The back half is like where I'm getting dressed, but this guy just walks in and she's like putting on her clothes and like puts on her gloves and everything. And it's just like, you should have an office.

they shouldn't have to come meet you by your bed. I don't know. It just felt weird. It felt weird for me. So this guy is from the ministry of peace.

that sounds nice.

Yeah.

there's nothing nefarious.

there's nothing weird about the ministry of peace, right. They joke around the office and call it mini packs. You know, why they around the office and call it mini packs?

no.

It's a reference to George Orwell's 1984.

Oh, okay.

yeah, there was a ministry of peace in there and apparently they are aware of it. And so they make office jokes about it. That's another JMS. Quote that I, I read about. But I don't know if I was a government official and I worked in an office that had a similar sound to, you know, George Orwell's 1984. I'm not sure that would be my office joke.

No,

Oh, well

but this guy McCaffey starts putting on a, a really compelling argument to me, like.

mm-hmm,

just need to get our house in order. So like, if you find peace and then you convince three of your friends to accept peace, and then they can go out and get three of their friends to have peace, like pretty soon, you know, we're rolling in peace here.

Yeah, we're all

sinister or underhanded going on. This. Isn't going to financially bankrupt. Anyone

I, this is funny because of my notes. I also compared his pitch to a timeshare

I absolutely. When, when that bit came up, I was just like, this feels like everybody's walking away with a timeshare

Yep. You know, he's, he's got a very calculated harmlessness to him, this guest actor. So this is Alex Hyde white, and I was reading about him. He was born in Ludon, but lived in California and that's, you know, where he got in the movie business and stuff. So he has that very like soft Britishness,

Yes. He had the accent, but it's starting to go away, but it's not completely gone yet.

Yeah, he's not British villain for us. He's harmless British man, who might be a villain

Yes. He's not a, it's not the accent of somebody. Who's a inexplicably playing a Roman. Like because our, our, our Romans always have British accents.

right, right. Also our, our Nazi allegory often have British accents.

That's well, that's true. And the, if the arm band fits

Yeah. Speaking of arm bands,

Yes.

So he tells Talia that her superiors back home have identified her as a candidate for this program that he wants to discuss and launch. And so she's gonna go to that timeshare meeting. Well, she agrees I have some questions about that, but we'll save it for the, that scene when we get there. So in med lab, the computer is committing some horrific HIPAA violations by reading all the patient stats allowed for everyone in the lab to hear. And also Franklin's been hitting the meth pretty hard.

yes, but the, the thing that happens here, one Franklin is our only person in med lab right now. I.

he

There were a bunch of knocked out NORNS I saw but I did not see any other medical personnel,

oh man. I did. I didn't notice. So I'd have to scrub

who comes in, but our commander RVA and we see a, like, passed out on his arm. Franklin. And what does Avan do? She wakes him up to yell at him for not sleeping and I'm just like, your boy was. He was doing the thing

you could give him a minute. Come

yeah. Just give him 15.

Yeah, but she's, she's got a big issue with where he's sleeping, I think. And that he needs to go home and do that. She orders him to take some time off, get some sleep maybe don't hit the meth so hard.

Yeah. And I believe you guys mentioned, this is the first time he references using stems.

I think it is the first time he references using them himself. Like. I, I think maybe there's been a reference in the past to him saying he had used them, but I think this is our first active Babylon five in season, definitely using stems.

Yep.

And we've heard of other doctors using them and, and abusing them. You know, we've heard of doctors losing their careers in earlier episodes, season one,

But he, you know, talks about how they're totally safe, which makes me think he has a little syringe in his desk that says, don't talk to me until I've had my stems. Just like people have their coffee cups. Now

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Not weird at all. So he goes to get some sleep

you have six hours of sleep and then a meal.

and a, a breakfast that she will meet him at. She's holding him to that. And then we've got some, either like random checkpoints on the station or maybe Mr. Morgan's trying to leave. I couldn't tell if this was

I believe it was, I believe it was him trying to leave.

Yeah. So

and I don't know, maybe if you had a, a different cohost, they could talk to you about quote unquote random TSA screening checks. I, I I'm sure Jafa is kicking himself for not being here on this episode because, uh, I don't know if he's told you about this. He somehow always gets randomly screened

You know, I just have no idea how that's happening.

yeah.

oh man. Yeah. Definite random selection here. And it's Zach, it happens to be Zach doing it. Mor tries to like Jedi mind trick his way out of this. He's

Well, then he just tries to bum rush past him. And it's just like, my dude, you are, your whole thing is keeping the lowest of low profiles. You're, you know, you should have a, you know, you should be saying like, how do you know who I am? You know, never bring up your manager. Like he is his whole thing is like fly completely under the radar. And then he tries to just barge past Alan.

Yeah, bad move.

And then Alan is immediately backed up by like seven people. PPGs out and it's just like, well, there's your budget overruns right there. Did you have this at every single exit point? Uh, Just are there, you know, 50 other security agents just sitting there hiding around the corner, just like, well, maybe he'll show up at airlock three.

Yeah, we just, we just covered the station with our security personnel and their guns, all getting overtime, obviously.

Oh, absolutely.

Yeah, cuz we're, we're that kind of station now so they take him off to an interrogation room and Sheridan is just,

Yep.

He gives a picture of his wife over to Morden.

Yeah, clearly the actresses headshot, you know,

yeah, definitely. Morton doesn't appear to recognize her at all. Very strange.

well, but they also said it's like 130 something people on the ship.

Okay.

Do you know, EV like everybody in your office well enough that if somebody angrily handed you a picture a few years later, you would be able to recognize them,

Yeah, I guess you have a solid point there cuz we have a, I at a small financial institution of about 80 people and there are some people who I don't think I've seen in their face before.

right. Or just, Hey, this person, like you were on, you know, the, in the choir with three years ago, or you. This person you took a college class with. Yeah. And it's just like, I don't know.

yeah,

like I was, I was a little bit on Morden's side for some of this stuff.

I don't know, I was thinking of it as like you're all on a small ship together. Surely you've all seen each other's faces, but I don't, I don't know for sure. So Morgan's got this like immediate amnesia cover story. Like he memorized this thing, right?

And it's a pretty good one. But it's also the kind of one that it's like, you could have sent this off to like some backwater base and been like, Hey, I'm actually alive, got found by this transport here. Not actually dead. Can you reactivate my ID card?

Yeah.

And then no one would have thought to look for you.

Yeah, so he, he says that he was possibly outside the ship because he was found in an Eva suit. Picked up by this passing transport D but didn't remember anything. And like, he gives some crap about it, took him months to remember his own name and whatever.

Something went wrong with the IOUs waxed based faster than light. Uh

So, you know, Sheridan's like, well, why didn't you tell her essentially you were live and he. You know, says he tried to tell her central and they must have lost it. And I do like this cool trick that he does during this argument where he like pushes the table into Morton to keep him from getting up

Yeah,

it's like, wow. Okay. But she, we see a very dark side of Sheridan in this whole episode.

we do. But the, the one thing that really gets to me is Morden drops the you haven't Accused me of a crime. You can't hold me. And I'm like using a dead guy's ID is a crime. Even if you are the dead guy, like there are there, this isn't a, we have no law to fit your crime. This is, we've got a bunch of laws. Like these are like, is all identity theft stuff. Like if this guy's dead and you're using his. You gotta prove you are him.

Yeah.

like, there's gotta be at least seven laws that they could, like, they're not huge laws. It's not like murder, but you could be holding him on conspiracy of to commit identity theft or something.

Yeah. Okay. So that sort of like destroys the whole problem for most of this episode, doesn't it? whoops. Yeah. You can't, you can't quite write this episode in general. I think the same way anymore.

Mean, it it's very compelling. I was just sitting there and I was just like, no, there's gotta, like, at this point in time, there's gotta be laws for like you show up at a space station using a dead guy's ID.

But Sheridan's going the route of he's gonna use Morden's dead status as a reason that he can hold him without charges. And definitely he's not even bothering, you know, putting together his legal premise. And you know, Morden makes a couple of vague threats, but we move off to a scene with Dr. Franklin and Ivanova instead.

Yes. They're at breakfast now. Presumably six hours.

Yeah. Franklin's still feeling pretty modeling, which is a thing that I think doctors have a right to do in this situation.

Yep.

He's been haunted by his dead patients. They're both lamenting the Nan and entire war situation. And then they get in a good old fashioned religious discussion.

Yeah, this gets a little concerning for me, because if I find out. My doctor thinks he sees the eyes of God. Every time he looks into the eyes of a dying person, I'm going to say, Hey, maybe get me a new doctor. I, I don't want, I don't want Franklin searching for a religious experience in my passing.

Yeah, I would really like you to be focused right now.

Like he doesn't seem like, Hey, I, I maybe let a few go so I could see God a little bit more, but you know, maybe I'm not taking my chances.

Yeah. He's he tells us about this foundationalism idea, which I, I can summarize it and I'm not sure I'm doing it correctly, but it it's basically, you'll never truly define or see God, because there's an infinite number of points in between yourself and God.

Yes.

And the closest Franklin gets. Is seeing the reflection of God when someone is dying and he's seen it a lot lately and he's getting unnerved, he's getting upset by that.

And this actually a thing he brings up in this, this uh, scene I've really loved because it kind of segues into the bit from season one, where they line up all of the different religious practitioners.

yes. Yes. Yes.

And so we know a lot of our current religious practices survive into the hypothetical Babylon five future. We know Judaism still exists, but I like the idea that there are new religious ideologies and fundamentals out there that were formed because Hey, there's aliens everywhere now.

Yeah. Now we have to grapple with that.

Well, and then, We have to also grapple with what do you know, what do they believe versus, what I now have access to like, does everybody know that weird kid in college? Who's like, nah, I follow follow cent religion. I've got idols all over my place and I'm getting smashed

the Sentara gods do seem like college gods

yeah.

Definitely. Yeah. I like the idea that you know, that whatever it is in our brains that we look for, religion keeps evolving once we get into space. Yeah.

Yeah. So it's not the OG star Trek. Oh, there's none of this. It's, there's just access to more of it. And everybody's searched for greater meaning in the uh, in the universe.

So in the interrogation room, Sheridan, you know given a more crap about the amnesia

The cover

Yeah.

And he uses the uh, the age old tactic of just keep asking questions and don't let him answer because how can you catch somebody in alive? You just keep asking questions over and over and over again.

Yeah. You've never caught anybody in a alive by just letting them talk.

Yeah.

just let them talk and talk and talk until they talk themselves into a circle. But what do we know? We didn't go to Aldi's homeschool security

No, we did not.

but we also are getting the timeshare pitch at the same time. And now it comes with arm bands. Now I know that there are perfectly legitimate organizations who wear arm bands. I think it's a red cross thing.

Yes.

Military police sometimes do it but aren't arm bands just unsettling.

Well, I, I will say the, the LAR group Jafar and I were in had arm bands, but that was because. Everybody was just like, no, we don't wanna like color code or anything. We all have our own, you know, fantasy clothes. And I'm just like, can we at least put on like a forearm band that has our unit logo on it?

yeah,

did not catch up.

perfectly legitimate uses of arm bands, but in this uh, setting

this clearly has a connotation.

Yeah. Yeah. So his pitch again, he's got his little, you know, if you just get three friends to accept peace and they get three friends to accept

Look, do you want to have peace all the time or do you just need peace? You know, three weekends out of the year? You know, that way you don't have to pay for peace year round,

Yeah. And you know, we've got to have that peace ourselves before we can have peace with others. So they pitch this and of course they lead it with, you know, you're gonna get an extra 50 credits per week

Hey, that's why they can't pay for medical care for the NAS.

yeah. So we're gonna launch this night watch program. We're gonna pay you all a little extra. And I, I admit that the economics of Babbel on five are not my strong suit and I'm not totally sure. Like how does 50 credits translate for us in our minds? Right.

Did they already have? The, we already had the episode where 25 credits a month was enough to make. Shared and sleep in his office. Right.

oh yeah, it was, it was an extra 25 or 30 credits for the,

And that was a

rent.

Yeah. And so if 25 credits a month is enough to make somebody be like, but the, the, the outrage of this, like it wasn't a, I can't afford this thing. It was a, I shouldn't be asked to pay this sort of. But double that a week, it seems like a significant amount

Yeah. It, it is not insignificant. It is definitely. A nice little cherry on the top, but you know, we lead with that. We lead with here's all the extra money you're gonna get. And Zach does actually push back a little and he is like, I can't believe I would be paid 50 credits just to wear your arm band

Yes.

And you know, it becomes clear that Tali is there because she has the ability to detect thoughts.

Right

And I thought a telling line in McAfee's pitch is that they're not interested in actions as much as attitudes.

right,

We don't care what you do. We care what you're thinking.

exactly. We're not worried about. Catching criminals that's for the police. This is for, Hey, do you know somebody who might be having subversive thoughts?

Very very 1984. I sinister I think. So I have a question and you don't have to have an answer but you know, we, we brought Talia into this and he specifically mentioned that Talia's superiors recommended her.

Right,

So do you think That is because por is, is in with the night when just knowing what you know right now, not knowing what you know, from watching the whole series is por in it in bed with night watch, or are they recommending her because they're wanting her to spy on night. Watch.

I would assume if CCO was not down with the night watch, they would not be talking to night watch. They would be doing stuff to undermine night. Watch,

Yeah.

like at this point we've already got a pretty good idea. That CCO was involved in the death of president Santiago and is, you know, pulling the levers up at the very, very tippy top. So in, in my guesstimations from where we're at now, would not be a new ministry of peace without everybody being in on it.

yeah, including Cy.

Exactly. And also like if you're going to make a uh, an organization that it's big thing is, Hey, tow the company line. If you are able to tie that with also some of our members or Sycor that's really going to be something that pushes the average person to be like, I'm not making any waves. I don't know if that person wearing that arm band can read my mind or.

Yeah.

so I think they compliment each other very nicely.

And the great thing about this show that you and I both know, because we've seen. At least in my case, much of it. I don't know if I've seen all of it actually, but much of it before is we don't just introduce something like this and then not hear from it again, like night watch is coming back. it's gonna be a thing and they, they make that pretty clear at the end of this episode, I think. So we've got thought police and also they might be your neighbors. Cool.

I did appreciate the juxtaposition. Having this quasi sinister meeting where it's, Hey, we just want to, find people who might be, dangerous to the public safety and then, you know, reeducate them and bring them around. And then it cuts right to our other storyline where Sheridan is holding somebody without. charging them with a crime

Yeah.

and interrogating them for 10 hours.

Yeah, that's a, that's a good point. I I didn't quite notice that. The other thing that I was thinking about about this scene was. we hear this all the time, even today, right. That like, well, why are we helping in this case? You know? Right. And the, the zeitgeist right now, why are we helping Ukraine when we have our own problems here at home? And, and this night watch is gonna prey on that. Like we've we already know earth stone is gonna try to prey on that.

right. Nobody's spending the time to think about, Hey, we've we've literally seen streams of refugees. We've seen a med lab full of the dead end dying. We know enough how this has been going on that Franklin's quasi traumatized. You know, this isn't like, man, it's been a bad day. This is man. It's been a bad couple of weeks. At the very least

Yeah. Months, even at this point. Yeah, so it's a weird juxtapositioning that this, this episode is, is trying to make us think of all these things at once. And I really appreciate that about the writing. So yeah, we, we go back to the scene where Aldi is, you know, ready to like, hang it up

Right. He's just like, dude, we're we're done. Which I don't know. When Garabaldi decides to be by the book and when he doesn't seems to be, as the plot requires and he doesn't even kind of be like, Hey, as soon as I step outside this door, I'll play it fast and loose. But when I am in this office by the book and it's like, that seems real arbitrary. And my dude

Yeah. That. That does that doesn't flatter you the way you think it does.

no

you know, even, but he say, even my homeschool security training tells me this isn't okay. Like, I can't do this here for one thing. There are cameras up there.

yeah. Did I print out the certificate myself? Yes, I did. But it means something to me.

yeah. So, and Begar tries to compromise. He says, you know, he'll let him go. I'll just tell him until we find something to charge him with, you

I will harass this man until he does a crime.

Yeah. Which that's just not good enough for Sheridan. I guess, even though I thought that was a, decent compromise from their perspectives.

Well, it's also one of those things that, you know, once again makes you wonder how many cameras are on Babylon five.

Yes.

he's just sitting there with his feet up watching the interrogation. We're not getting like a scene of him, like scrubbing through all of Morton's time doing like, well, he is met with these people. He knows these things like.

He just talked to vere a little bit ago, like he's

So it's just one of those things where it's like, what, what police work are you doing outside of berating? This man inside of an office for 10, 10 hours there, Sheridan?

Yeah. Do you think they let him go to the bathroom? I would hope so.

I, I have to imagine at some

10 hours is a long time. So yeah, Garibaldi ultimately gives Sheridan the ultimatum, you know, the one that never works like you do this, or I go and winds up having to

We get the, the gun and the badge on the table.

Yep. Yep. So rough, rough moment. There. Back from a, I presume a commercial break, Sheridan, Scott, Zach, and he's going to turn over the prisoner to him and also gives him some instructions soon. Just, you know, maybe find Talia. just see

Hey, maybe we'll do an illegal brain scan.

Yeah. You know, no big deal.

Hey, it's not a crime to, to scan a dead guy's brain.

Yeah. But he's gotta meet with veer first and in Sheridan's office, VE is saying, you know, we've gotta let, you've gotta let this guy go. He's ours. I think veer does a really good job here of not giving his hand away about Mor we know he hates Mor

Yeah. It, it's a really, really interesting. Juxtaposition with the first veer scene, because you have to imagine veer would love nothing more than to see you know, get Aldi, throw this guy out of an airlock. But he's tied to his, you know, diplomatic commission here. I do what Orlando tells me lawn says, get this guy outta jail. I get this guy outta jail.

Yeah, Steven first just does a great job in the

Oh, fantastic.

he's, he's got very, you know, poised at first when he says this, and then as Sheridan gets angry or you see him start falling into his ness a little bit. But he doesn't give anything away.

I do have a question for you. Do you think this is the first time veer has had to get somebody out of prison for Orlando?

Oh, gosh, it can't be right.

Right. so I do wonder is VE a little bit like, okay, at least this is something I know how to do.

yeah, like he's like really, I have to do it for this guy. The one that I hate so much, but he's, he's done it before. Right. if nothing else, it was a, a drinking buddy or a casino buddy or.

Yeah. Something happened, like we know he's been involved in like, Bar bras and cheating at cards something's happened.

yeah. yeah, I think you're right. I think this is not his, he he's got a script he can fall back on. He knows how to do this. Yeah.

And this is where my, my one plot hole from the beginning comes back a little bit because Sheridan's able to drop the, Hey, we haven't charged him with a crime. So diplomatic community doesn't apply. So but then again, I, I had to think back to, you know, going to other sci-fi, even if you didn't do anything wrong in Trek, if your ship blows up, there's an automatic court marshal. Like I was just back to it again, like there should be things that like you're holding Morden for a ship blew up.

yeah. Good point. Like he cuz he does make the point. He could have his wife's murderer in custody.

right.

And that's a very solid point. Like if he's the only person who survived a ship that blew up and nobody knows what was happening when it blew up.

There needs to be an investigation

Right. Right. So, yeah, there seems like there should be a mechanism for that. Like

even if Morton's totally innocent, there should be a, okay. We need to backtrack to the guys who found you so we can find some evidence. To maybe find out what happens. Like he's, he's obstructing even that now of course we know because it didn't actually happen, but

Yeah. Yeah. So he gets VE out of there by saying this is protective custody

right.

which is just, okay. it's it's like Talia said, it's the letter of the law to defeat the spirit of the law.

exactly.

He's just that all over the place. We run into Ivan in the hallway. She's got the same concerns. We're just hearing 'em all over again. And Sheridan just keeps, keeps moving forward.

Yep.

But back in the security office, tall is refusing to do that. Unauthorized brains can

and then Sheridan gets real underhanded here.

oh, this is just the biggest Dick move. Of all time, right.

because he knows she's gonna be picking stuff up just blatantly. So he makes it so that they cross each other in the hallway and Talia immediately starts screaming.

Yeah. She's hit with something bad, some real bad vibes. Terrible pain. She sees some wavy things that we know, cuz we've seen the shadows. We see these wavy shadows next to Morton and she just like collapses into Zach's arms and has to get taken to med bay.

really, really bad, which also makes me wonder, like does more than like avoid telepaths,

I mean, that's the implication, right? Like he's, he's got to,

which would make like, Later in, we get different episodes that are a day with this character. And I, it makes me sad. We never got like a day with Morden. Like what does he do in a day on on Babylon five?

I would love all those scenes of him just sitting in a room by himself with two shadows next to him.

you know, he's just sitting there, staring out into the middle distance, waiting for somebody to come in and be like, aha, I've been expecting you.

I, I think, I think if you do that episode, you get a couple of characters you're doing at once. And every scene of Morton is just him, like sitting somewhere and staring I think that'd be great. okay. So in med lab, Talia gets checked out. She tries to like, describe this experience. All we can get is really it's horrible. She doesn't know what she saw. She doesn't know what his deal is. But you know, Sheridan comes in and tries to apologize and gets a good slap in the face.

And he earned it but he even like admits like, yeah, I deserve that.

Mm-hmm oh yeah. He knew he was being an asshole. So. He's got some PLE in to do some apologizing, real apologizing to Talia, not this like half ass thing he attempted. And I read that apparently they only did two two shots of the scene, like of the slap because she did it very hard. they didn't wanna response. Lightener

All right. I, well, I appreciate that. They went for it. Cuz I don't know. I've I've had to slap people on stage before and it's the kind of thing. Okay. If you do it once, like I'm not super worried about having hurt you, but like, you don't wanna practice it. we're not gonna like, you know, run the scene a couple of times.

Yeah. Any sort of like physical contact fighting on stage is difficult for me.

Yeah.

I don't, I don't like to do it to people. So Sheridan just takes us all as like confirmation that he's right. He's on the right track. And he should just keep pushing Franklin actually steps in for a second and says, you know, you can't fix everything. You, maybe You, should back off a little. But it's not Franklin that convinces.

Nope. It is Len and KSH hiding in the hallway.

Yeah, they're hanging out in the hallway and they are insistent that he released Morden and he's just incredulous. He can't, he can't believe these people would get involved.

Right.

And why,

Yeah. Dylan, why are you not on my side? And KSH why do you care? You know, cuz for KSH to take an interest in something means, you know, is out of the ordinary.

Yes. Yeah. Kosha is famously hands off with everyone on this station.

So why does he care about this one random dude being in a holding cell

Yeah. So we get to find out why. So Dylan explains that there, there was a war with these shadows and the, it sounds like the first war was 10,000 years ago.

or there was, there was one, 10,000 years

Yeah. But you know, the Mumbar and other first ones allied together to defeat the shadows. I'm not sure if that was the one, 10,000 years ago, if That was 1000 years ago.

years ago. Yep.

And now we've only got one first, one race left.

Yep. The Volans and, but they're not letting everyone know that they're first ones.

Yeah, but it's kind of obvious, right?

You think so,

they're the ones that are like mysterious technology and don't explain anything about themselves. And it's like, if there's gonna be a first one race, it's them.

right? like, they're not, they're not, it's not, Hey, we're super chummy and everybody's best friends. And then it's like, wait, you are actually 5 million years old, you know, it's oh, who who's the, the. Person drawing the most attention in this room. Is it the guy in the encounter suit? Who's looming over everybody saying cryptic stuff.

yeah, it was, it was pretty obvious. So. We get a nice fun, little black and white flashback.

We get a flashback to Jenga tower.

we've been calling it the cones of Shire

Yes.

but Jenga tower's good too. It's like, it's like, you know, how 3d chess and star Trek changed? Like maybe Jenga is all about the triangles in 2250. So she, she asked a question at the end of that last episode of season. But we don't know what the question was. We know what the answer was and the answer was yes. Now we find out the question.

What is. Have the shadows returned. Sorry. I was doing it in jeopardy

jeopardy style. I love it. have the shadows returned.

yes.

And the answer was, yes. So KSH has confirmed that the shadows have returned. And then KSH like, does this thing where he like projects an image maybe into Sheridan's mind? I think that's how we're supposed to take it.

An image or like his own memories,

Mm-hmm

like, but he suddenly gets to experience it.

Yeah. He gets to experience the IOUs. And what the IOUs did. And for some reason, delin is able to narrate this image. So maybe she's seeing the same thing at the same time. I don't

Well, and also it makes me wonder how did KSH get these images?

Yeah.

what his thoughts of the situation are? Or is it some sort of, they were actually able to like spy on Zha doom, psychically,

Those are questions I had too, but I don't have good answers for them.

Yeah.

so, you know, maybe he's just conjecturing and he's projecting this image, but it's the IOUs. They went to look up the remains of a dead civilization and sure. To knew that part, you know I don't know why we hadn't connected before this, that the IRAs was at Zaha Dom, like surely he had the flight.

Yeah. and Ja,

those

yelling about this planet for a year.

and Ja car's been yelling about this planet for a year. So like,

you think shared and be like, wait a minute. The place my wife died

right it's like some of the plot doesn't line up, like you can't, I don't know. Maybe they were keeping their flight plan a secret, but I don't,

it's situation of translation errors, where they all called the planet different stuff, but you feel like they'd have that somehow worked out. You know, it's Kars running around worrying you warning everybody. Don't go to Constantinople and Sheridan's just like, man, my wife Doden is stand and know, they, he's not able to square the circle there

Yeah. I would think that if you just put, put your hands on a map real quick, you can get rid of that.

This place, This place, right here. Nobody go here. It's real bad.

Yeah, but apparently, you know, that that's where they were. We didn't know it until now that the IOUs was at Zhao, but it was, and they either woke up the shadows there, or I just accidentally stumbled on some shadows there who was doing stuff. I think that the story is that they woke them up, that it was humans arrival,

that made them be.

yeah. Sheridan's overwhelmed. Dylan confirms that, anybody who was on this ship, John, that wouldn't serve would've been killed.

right. And he is like,

you

prisoners, like maybe they keep prisoners and they're like, no, dude.

he's trying to keep the dream alive. But what you have in there in that cell, that is a man who chose to serve

Yeah

so you've gotta let him go because he's not alone. And you know, if you tip our hand too early, we're not gonna be ready to fight.

right.

And then she compares John's situation now to Ja cars earlier in the season. Like you can get revenge right now or

Yeah.

can actually do something for the good of others. You gotta choose between yourself

Yeah. Getting, getting that revenge right now could mean we all die.

yeah. And. Boy, this just gets real dark. If you keep thinking about how Jaar has been warning us about Zha do for a year now,

Exactly.

And Dylan, and KSH have both known about that, about his warnings, about Zhao, and basically they've chosen to let the Narn suffer and die

Yeah. Do we think that they know that the shadows are why this entire are winning the war?

I mean, they've gotta have a hint about it. Right. They've gotta have a suspicion, even if it, even if there's plausible deniability right now.

Why are these two races that should be having a more evenly matched war? Why, why is it going? So one sided.

Yeah. Especially, well, I don't know if they know about the link between Morden and lawn, do they, we don't have a clear,

I

have a clear scene that connects that delin and KSH would know that Sheridan knows that.

So I presume they would find that in short order,

Yeah, it's gotta be coming right. Ugh, but boy, we, now we know that they've chosen to like sacrifice the iron prob probably chosen to sacrifice the Narn. And Sheridan gives his little analogy about this too. You know, he gives everybody a history lesson, especially I love this, this uh, cannon that Zach doesn't know history.

Right.

it's, it's very good. It makes Zach very um, Oh, you know, he's gotta have this down to earth projection very every man and

What I mean at the same time, how much would your average person know about. a war 250 years ago or 300 years ago,

Oh gosh. It'd be more.

2259 to 1940.

Yeah. Okay.

Yeah. So how many, how much does somebody know about, you know, the seven years war or whatever?

Like beyond the surface too, like,

he's talking about specifics.

you know, and this, this, uh, analogy gives us very good.

Oh, it's a great analogy. I.

He tells us the story about how the British broke or the at least the allies broke the Germans and NMA code in world war II. And they have intercepted a message that, you know, the city of Coventry was going to be bombed and they had the choice of, do we give away that we've broken this code by evacuating the city of comment or do we do nothing

And let the city get bond.

Yeah, keep intercepting messages, maybe save other lives through that. But you know, these lives are gone and uh, it's a real decision from Winston Churchill and Sheridan clearly feels like Churchill in this moment. if he lets Mor go, people are going to die. If he doesn't, then he tips the whole war into the now.

Yep. The thing that gets me though, is like, at this point he shouldn't have as many reservations as he seems to because he knows what the story is like. Yeah. He knows more than is a bad guy, but he knows he's not responsible for anything that happened to his wife.

Yeah.

all of those fears are assu. It's not like he, you know, sold them off or blew up the ship or something. It's Hey, they went to a, you know a galactic bad neighborhood and, you know, were either subjugated or killed. I found a guy who subjugated,

mm-hmm

know everything. I need to know. Morgan can't, tell me anything about the IOUs that I don't know.

Yeah.

it feels like it's a, you know, I also, but I also know it's a very emotional, like everybody who's on this thing is supposed to be dead you know, moment for him. So it might not be as easy to just be like, well, yeah. Then let him go.

well, and he, he's probably taking a lot more of like personal responsibility into it, as you know, He, he didn't do the right thing and just die. He chose to be a subject. And like, we have a little bit more sophisticated understanding of power sometimes in this day and age. And that like, doing the right thing, the right thing, which is to die is not necessarily like an. And choice you can make when you're faced with overwhelming power. So I, I don't know.

he's, he's not a fan of collaborators. Even if it's, Hey, who's this, or getting murdered on an alien planet. Now the fact that Morden seems to enjoy it. No. Okay. Maybe Morden's a piece, piece of junk

Yeah. Yeah, but we don't know how much of the real Morden is still in there to be honest. Like, is, is this just who he was? And he was a real

Well, I mean, in the IOUs photo, he had that same creepy, dead eyed stare. So

I think it's very possible, but this is just who he is.

They were like, okay, who helps? who wants to help us subjugate the galaxy? He was like, yes, this is my dream.

Here for it.

the shadows are like, dude, you're a little underhanded. Even for us.

dial it back. You're a little much. So he does need a little bit more to let this go though. And he, he hears some weird stuff from the cell and makes Zach start scanning it on different wavelength. And Sheridan gets to see the shadows next to Mor. Very briefly, Zach is his back has turned. He saw nothing. And that's it. he knows they're there. He's ready to ready to accept it and let Mor go.

Absolutely. He's like, okay, we're done here. It's been confirmed for me.

I can. It's all real now. I, it's not theoretical. I've seen it. Morton stares at the camera. Nice and creepy.

Straight out of uh, psycho. I, I don't know if, if he looks like Norman Bates on purpose, but I, I really get strong Norman Bates staring right down the barrel of a camera vibes from Morton.

yeah. Ed Wasser is so good at this, right.

Oh, he's fantastic.

He's just great. This show would not be the same without him. And then we get Sheridan going to GU Baldi and giving him back his gun and his badge and apologizing for being wrong. GU Baldy accepts it better than I would've thought.

Yeah, you accept it real quick.

Yeah. Sheridan promises and won't happen again. And that seems to be enough for Garabaldi. I mean, considering how reluctant he was to accept Sheridan at the beginning of all this, he almost would've expected a little more resistance to this, but oh, and then as Sheridan's leaving Zach shows up and

He's got a night watch arm band. Yep.

Yeah, he's doing the arm band and he tells Garib all these like, Hey, they're offering me a little extra money to just do what I do. So, yeah, Zach is he's the every man, like who would turn that down?

you know, if it was just, Hey, walk around and if you see something weird, tell somebody. I think a lot of people would take that deal.

yeah, for, especially for extra money,

well, and if like, if I'm gonna like, make some sort of guess like for an extra $200 a week, you know, what would you, you know, how far would you go?

Yep. So that's, that's a big moral question that we gotta wonder about

yep.

and then we go see KSH to round out the episode. He tell Sheridan tells him I released him and now I wanna learn how to beat these shadows at Zaja. Do.

And we get the big, important line. If you go to Zha, you will die.

Yeah, but Sheridan doesn't care

Nope.

and Ks says, okay, I'll teach you end of episode, so Ben, I have to ask you another important question. We've posed each other, a few important questions and it's been wonderful.

Mm-hmm

How do you feel about this episode on a scale from Babylons one to Babylons? Five

I really, really like this episode, like I did have some issues with it. Like there are some things that feel like a little bit of plot ho. But I also don't know the earth dome legal code. Maybe they've only got like seven laws and that's why Gar Balty is able to be security chief. So I found like parts of it really compelling. I found the juxtaposition of, okay. We've spent 17 episodes with Sheridan, so we know he's a good guy. So we're able to excuse some of his.

Okay. Yeah. I, I don't think I can quite get to Babylon for, because of the plot holes, but it's gosh, it's such an important like plot driver, you know, for the overall story. I would, I probably land in 3.5. Just because of the, the plot. Holy nature. Of some of this

Yeah, but you get the great VE scene and then you get You know, Gosh actually explaining something.

Yeah. We get some good CGI with the IOUs. Like it's pretty good quality. I don't know. I guess you could talk me into four.

I mean, I I,

Yeah, it's above average for sure. I think we can both agree on that for sure. okay. Well hopefully on our next episode, Jafa will be back

I hope.

Yeah, not that it's not been great having you on. Thank you so much, Ben, for sitting in and talking Bab on five with me, it's been a.

It was my.

And also thank you to Jeremy Siegel. For our theme music, you can find more of him at Jeremy Siegel, 40 two.bandcamp.com and also thank you to angry deck time machine on Instagram for our podcast art, and thank you to everybody else for listening and being here with us today. If you wanna join conversations on our discord, you can email us at who are you, B five gmail.com. And we will get you a link to our discord, or you can just send us your thoughts there. That's fine too.