S2E15 - Ally Mc'Toth

Welcome to who are you? A Babylon five watch cast hosted by two former strangers. Now friends who have gotten to know each other and will continue to get to know each other while rewatching one of their favorite shows from their childhood Babylon five. I'm sure fair.

And I'm Laura.

And today, Laura, I get to ask you. What do you want?

Well, I, unlike captain Sheridan in our episode, that's coming up today. Want some March. I

You want some merge?

want that sweet, sweet Babel on five March. And.

with the remake.

Yeah. You know, I can't wait for the remake. So I'm really hoping when we go to star Trek, Las Vegas, And. the time you are hearing this, we are on our way.

Yeah.

some sweet, sweet Babylon five March.

I am excited for the trip. For a number of reasons, besides it being my first vacation, since I went to Hawaii last year. And my first time off the didn't involve me being sick or moving. Um, In almost a year. Very excited for it. Uh, for that, I'm very excited to my first star Trek con.

Really.

I've done a number of other conventions I've done. I've done like four or five dragon cons. I've done a lot of locals and may conventions, ACE ends, um, all kinds of stuff, but I haven't done a strictly star Trek convention before.

It has been a long time for me because I went to the track expos in Tulsa, which. If you were around Tulsa back then you kind of know when that era was. And I was small. When I went to those. This'll be my first star Trek convention. Has a grown ass adult, I guess.

Yeah. It's going to be my first convention in a long time with disposable income. So Lord knows what that means.

Disposable income and I'm flying on Southwest. So I get to check a suitcase for free. Uh, So I'm ready.

Beth and I have been planning things. There is a distillery called smoke wagon in Las Vegas. that makes a very nice, highly rated bourbon that you can't buy in Michigan.

Oh, that's

I'll be bringing my hard case luggage. And a bit of bourbon back with me at the very least. but who knows? What else? and try to even think that there would be that, of course, there's going to be Babylon five merge.

surely, right. It can't be that strict of like star Trek only. Merge surely.

I would hope not.

Uh, the other conventions I've been to, you know, that weren't even strictly conventions of had Babylon five stuff. one thing that I would really like to get my hands on, I think. Is kind of the Barbie style dolls. Like we see in this episode with a Mondo.

Did they make, oh, you know, I think I've seen one actually. I think I've seen her around. Yeah. They made these didn't. They.

Yeah. I mean, I would kill for the bear too, but. Just because, it's fun.

There were instructions on use net because that's just a build a bear bear.

I mean, that makes sense. Yeah. Yeah.

there's actually a story behind the bear.

Oh, I can't

Um, Well, when we get to the end of the episode, I'll tell the story about the bear. But this is, um, it's notable here because this is a non JMS episode. is the last non JMS episode until season five.

Dang. That is a lot of work.

So every episode from here until day of the dead and season five, which was written by Neil Gaiman is written by JMS. This was written by Peter David.

Oh, do you like him? like

And there's a story about him and this episode. That I'll tell at the end of the episode. Because it's pertinent to the last scene.

You giving them the teasers, you getting them to stay

Right. Yeah. We've got those new, new analytics after we changed. Pothos so, uh, I now get information, like how long someone actually listens to the podcast.

wow. I'm not sure. I want to know.

Almost everyone is through. It's not a thing. Um, we don't have a sudden drop off. Um, So that's cool.

mission. if I get anything cool while we're there or you get anything cool. We should post it up on the discord. It'd be like, look at our cool new swag.

Yeah. Yeah. When this episode airs, that's the day we both fly out to Vegas. And we're going to meet in person for the first time.

excited.

which will be fun. We'll record that. And, uh, yeah, if we find anything fun. Um, I know I'm bringing, I got a couple of uniforms, star Trek uniforms. I'm bringing.

Oh, cool.

I've been 3d print and stuff the whole week here. Little communicators and badges and pips and stuff.

Yeah. I going to bring my badge, uh, my one uniform that I have probably doesn't fit right now, so I will be wearing that, but I'm going to have a badge on.

There's still probably be some stuff. Because if I found like, So I sent you those Babylon five mugs that I found. I'm glad you like them. I have a Babylon five Stein. And then I picked up a couple action figures all at the last motor city comic con.

Oh, yeah. Okay.

Cause I've actually, they're all set up in my office now. So. Londo Avir. A Dylann and a Sheridan. And I do have the Sinclair aircraft up on my wall as well. Which was a Christmas present from number one, fan Ben. Thank you. But yeah, let's get into this episode.

Yeah, let's do it. This is a fun one.

Season two episode 15. They're all honor lies. We open on Ivanova and Sheridan. Discussing how the Senate is as we were discussing opening a gift shop to help pay for the station. Ivanova has a clutch line here. Babylon five, our last best hope for a quick buck.

Love it.

It's immediately followed by a, we're not some deep space franchise. The station is about something. Shots fired.

I think so. Yeah. criticized, shared it in the past for some of his, assigning the shitty assignments to Ivana, but, but I like for this one. It's, you know, he's assigning the critical thinker. this project to make sure that it's handled sensitively. So I was like, you know what? I'm okay with this one, I'll allow it.

Yeah. got plans anyways. He wants to go hang out with ambassador Kush and watch half baked. So.

Yeah, he just those cryptic cash conversation. So he's going back for more.

Yup. on his way down to his dealer, his cell gets swiped. Uh, he chases after the punk who stole it. Uh, runs into the wrong men Bari who asked him to shoot him. And so he does. but some narc, just barely sees the shooting to theme.

Yeah.

come back and, Garibaldi is cops splaining to Dylan that he looked real suspicious. And sometimes you just shoot someone who's unarmed.

Yeah. Um,

Oh, fucking yikes.

yikes. Yes. Yes, because Sheridan's like trying to explain himself. Garibaldi is being a little too sympathetic to share it in. And Dylan has some, you know, very real righteous anger, because we don't know much at this point. You know, Dylan of course. Has every right to conduct her own investigation. I think.

Yeah. Even the last time she totally was within those rights. She chose not to.

Well, she's learned right. live,

Fool me once Mr. Karen Baldy.

So yeah, she's going to conduct her own investigation. And then we cut to vere. And he's in Bondos quarters and he gets a very ominous TV call.

Yeah. Oh, no B plot progression to be had in this phone call. Just something with vere. That's all we get.

Yeah, but we know we're going to get beer, so it's going to be, know, There's some fun to that pot.

Gary, baldies talking to him and Bari who refuses to assist linear drops in to speak to them as well. In fact Garibaldi notes that when near is seemingly step ahead of him. Maybe maybe they should put linear in charge of station security.

Yeah.

He'd be very thorough. I think he actually probably do a better job to be perfectly honest.

not only would he be very thorough, but I would hazard that he would also be more respectful. I'm willing to put money on that. But, you know, Sheridan kind of wonders here. If this could be. Linear and Dillon trying to orchestrate a coverup. Garibaldi is very charitable toward linear. And doesn't believe he would do something like that.

But at the same time, He is buying into Garibaldis theory, positing that the person who stole the link him running into the Memorial warrior are linked. No pun intended. Uh, Sheridan does love a conspiracy.

Well, I mean this whole thing, I was like, I don't know. there was any question in anyone's mind at this point in the episode that these things. I could be not linked. Like they're obviously linked. It was obviously a setup You know, they, they arrive in med lab. They talk about this autopsy that's happening. Franklin tells them that there's nothing to prove it either way. You know, it. I can't prove that he attacked you, but I also can't approve that. You just shot him for no reason.

Yeah.

And then Kara Baldy. At this point finally asks how'd you get the PPG. for some reason they haven't talked about that. It

Hm.

Hanging out, conveniently on the floor.

Oh, there was just a hand gun right next to me.

Oh, and I just saw it and I thought, oh yeah, sure.

I mean, they might have assumed up until this point that it was his PPG. He might've even assumed that. doesn't typically carry while on duty, but.

Yeah.

It wouldn't be completely uncharacteristic for him too.

Yeah. I mean, he is a military man.

Yeah.

rights within the rights of military men, I suppose. but why no one talked about where it came from until we're here at the autopsy. It displays my mind.

Yeah. we cut to the Zocalo where the gift shop has opened. And drunk veer runs into Talia who makes a joke that doesn't make sense yet, and then runs off.

I love that we get her for just a second. In this episode.

Remember that Talia exists, please, please. Don't forget. Talia. She's going to be very important

It's going to matter. Yeah.

Yeah.

makes the station feel like more like a place if we don't just have. Are people that are in the episode. In the episode, like she's, she's around, we know her, she bumps into veer for this, you know, bit. And then.

Yeah. That's it for the episode, I'd argue. That's the kind of stuff that makes Babylon five Babylon five.

For sure.

Delaney. The linear believed they had found the witness he is religious cast. And the same clan is linear. He then says some racist, xenophobic shit.

Yeah, he's got a

For Deland.

bad

REFCO these two episodes for Dylan.

Yeah, she's really getting it from. Her people and other people and. she, you know, she's not minbar anymore, but she's not human either. The witness refuses to answer questions to anyone but linear. But even then it doesn't seem. Genuine does it. Yeah.

Ashton is all you want the truth? You can't handle the truth to commercial. And we get a stinger to commercial.

I saw that we've got the commercial break thing lift in.

I remember these from earring on TV, but I don't think I've seen one on HBO max before.

Yeah, this is the first one I've noticed. Aaron said this happens sometimes that they just, they were cutting these things, they didn't cut it right. Or. You know, I don't mind it.

Yeah. No, no. It was a fun, little bit of nostalgia for me because I remember watching this show. And although these things before the commercial breaks, And if we have any listeners young enough to not remember TV before streaming. don't tell me I'm happy. You're not knowing I don't want you to email me about it. I don't want to know.

Just definitely for us. It's we're getting a nice little nostalgia hit. Just give it to us. Let

Nope. Yeah. After this, we go to Sheridan's office. And we get the a Def first was actually. D. First. Which is a surrender. Um, Sharon's just like, you're a liar, man. Bari. call you a liar. And everyone's just like, whoa, you got to fight them to the deaths now. Um, so we just won't, we won't say that you said that.

Yeah, we've got this big deal on You do not lie. But I don't know. I feel like anybody who tells you, they don't lie. Is already doing that. So.

Mm, well, we talk about last episode, anyone who insists, they're the only one telling you the truth. Same logic applies.

Sheridan tries to back up and. Make this more palatable by saying that he is in error. And he wants to speak to this guy in person, Garibaldi actually is very right. That this is a bad idea.

Yeah.

Yeah, apparently. Garibaldi. could be right. Sometimes a stopped clock is right. Twice a day. Right.

Yeah. Avant, if it goes down to the gift shop and we see some action figures. we have one of the low Balian's in the background wearing two hats. on each lobe.

Yeah.

was something that's spotted in the background. That was a lot of fun. Um, where you get a very convincing mask being taken off by a human.

Uh, huh.

and then a very convincing human mask. Take it off by a dressy.

This is great.

This is so good.

I assume there's some editing involved to make these look as cool as they do. Or as

Oh, yeah, because there was no makeup like that was full stage makeup, not a mask. the human took that mask off and same goes, that was like the dude without any low phone. And then they put the drowsy makeup on him and that was all a cut. It was so good.

It's perfect. Like it,

there's a fun little thing here too. Um, there is a big model of Babylon five. the middle of the store. After this episode, it's painted bronze. put in Sheridan's office where it belongs. Uh, like just every captain ever has a bronze cut version of their ship in their office. This is how he gets his, it's a prop that they made for this episode. after this, that's where it lives.

That's great. Ah, I

And then we get a familiar face at space TSA.

A familiar face.

Yeah, this is Katelyn Julie Brown. the actress who played in the Toth and season one.

I'm embarrassed that I didn't catch this.

Well, she wears a lot of mates. It's a lot of prosthetics and stuff.

I feel like voice, I should have caught it. Right. But,

Yeah.

I wanted to tell you too, that for these two episodes, I was very, just like a burst in the story and the, the. The fun of it, though. of it are fun. Exactly. But you know what I mean, very immersed in the story. I didn't actually Google the guest stars all on either one or the next one. So if you've got stuff, share it.

The next one is nothing special. I thought it was Michael Ironside for a minute, but it wasn't.

No. But we get Katelyn, Julie Brown back.

Yeah, we get Caitlin Julie Brown. like I said, she's Natasha and season one and she does. Cameo is Natasha and season five. and she's shared, and this lawyer who ends the conversation in the room, Just immediately, she just shuts it down.

She is so powerful. She is screaming power lawyer. I love it.

Yeah. Dylan and linear cast out on Ashton's claim. cut back to Sheridan's office and I think the HD remaster like missed the scene. Uh, it just went to complete potato quality for me and everything was off. It looks gross. It was really bad. The render, anyways, Nath lock tells the captain earth gov is going to charge him for murder. doesn't think the charges will stick, but it is likely to cost him his command to commercial.

Um, so do we think that part of this earth dome strategy comes from how they feel about, and now for our word.

Quite possibly.

Yeah. Uh, like, uh, he stepped on some toes with some things. He said they're in his interview. And they're like, nah, it's fine. don't want him there anyway, like this is a good time. This is a good time to get rid of him. Right. Like, I don't think the conspiracy goes far enough that somehow earth was trying to frame him because obviously we, we find out other stuff about that, but I think earth is like, yes, now's the time.

Ivanova tries to share him up or reminding him. that, if he cares about not being a murderer, then he's probably still not a complete shit bag.

I thought it was great

Yeah. I mean, the fact that you care about whether or not you're a murderer is important. Which? Yeah. I mean, I, it is, I mean, by how our legal system works, know, it's accidental manslaughter and murder with intent. You know, there's separate things. So.

That's true. So Kosh picks now to show up and insist on going for a walk. You know, Sheridan rightly tries to say he's got a lot on his mind right now, but. that's precisely the time for a CAUTI lesson.

Yeah. I have been this guy before I have showed up at a friend's door. When I knew they had an absolute shitty day and they didn't want to leave the house and then dragged them out of the house.

Did you drag them out of the house for some light? Chanting.

No. Well, And it depends on the friend. what counts is slight chanting, I suppose. Um, possibly.

Cool. Cool.

Garibaldi. to follow a Shaun to see if he finds out anything. And then Yoda takes Luke down to the cave to confront. I mean, cos takes Sheridan down below. To show him one moment of perfect beauty.

I

This is definitely Amash, right? Like he's like what's in there, you know? And cause you may as well say only what you take with you. Like. It's fun and I appreciate it.

The aesthetics are also similar with everything being all kind of brown and. De GOBA ish.

Yeah.

always loved this scene. Thought it was really cool. that I'm older and I've been, you know, more educated on music and sound and stuff. The second they started singing. I was like, oh, that, sound could not be made in that tiny space. Like, it's

Well, they're aliens, maybe.

Who

Um, it is a Christmas hymn.

Is it okay. I was like, I should have sent this to my old, uh, music history teacher and see if she knew exactly what the was.

Yeah. no, it's, it's just a bit about Jesus. you know, being born and then coming again and all that stuff. not really my area of expertise to talk about, but, uh, JMS talked about it a bit. in the use net notes. So to my understanding, it's a Christmas hymn. It's at the very least a Christian religious him directly referencing Jesus

That's hilarious because if it is Christmas, because you know, I I've. Done a lot of choral singing in my days. and I wanted to just give everybody a couple of pieces that I've sung in that made me kind of feel like this. Like, like to be feeling in the scene. Um, and one is from Rachmaninoff's vespers. Number six. which is a Christmas Eve service. It's a Christmas Eve and then Morton Lorensen's oh, natto. Not to Luke's. you should definitely. Get an a. You know, Nice dark room.

You should post link to those in the discord. you get on the plane.

I wouldn't be surprised if it's hard to spell Bogart or D T. Because it is Russian.

Yeah. I. B. And I've done. So.

Yup. I'll give you a couple of links.

All right. Cool. Uh, we cut to veer who is two drinks, deep drowning, his problems and booze. Lando begins to chastise him when he realizes wait two Trinks.

It's so funny. He's trying so hard to be paternal after that. He's like, this, this poor boy.

Yeah. Uh, veer goes off on how Londo is and has been. And now that his job, isn't a joke he's been recalled to be replaced. Londa, since he's going to handle it, distracted by some Suntory women looking at his doll.

Uh, this is the Barbie I want y'all I want this one.

Dylan discovers something about the murdered men Bari. As Londo tracks down Sheridan and Ivanova to complain about his actionless figure.

Aye. I think it's very funny that. It's all about the penis again.

Yeah. It's an important part of their culture. The penis

keeps coming up. He's he's He's not mad about. You know, Being merchandised or.

No, no. Make your money. I get it.

Yeah, no, he's mad that the N the anatomy is not correct.

Yeah, this doesn't have any to stipulates. And that's a problem for Alondo. It implies he himself is without them. Which is very embarrassing.

Yeah, we can't have that.

but after all this. Uh, his entrance into the plot. Does Harold in important callback? About Mim Bari being able to lie sometimes.

Yes. And guess what his penis was in that episode, too. But yeah. Why, why did, why does he know this? Well, uh, linear had to cover for him once, right?

Yeah, but linear lied to maintain the honor of his clan. Which is the one time you can lie. As an embargo. we cut to the Zen garden Sheridan and Dylan talk. Sheridan notes of Sean is being taken away to the med Bari home world. Thus a trial, but also completely destroying Sheridan's credibility.

Yeah, gonna have to leave the station

Yeah.

forever be wondering. he really kill that guy? And that will be disruptive.

Yeah. He compares how helpless he feels now to when his fighter was once a drift. Just hanging out in space, unable to do anything.

Yeah.

Dylan feels alone too. But Sheridan kind of dresses her down a bit. About this. You know about the big truths and the small truths and how the small truths need to be there, to support the big ones.

Yeah, you can't have large ideals without smaller ideals. I actually was just a. Reading, one of the Terry Pratchett Discworld books. And he says something similar, like. If you'll do it for a good reason. You'll do it for a bad reason.

Yeah.

So. very, very salient point here. Sheridan. Linear confronts a Sean and tells him that his ship is supposed to leave within the hour because linear is going to announce that he was complicit. In the death of Lavelle. He's going to bear the responsibility of the acts of his clan.

Yeah, he honors shames a Shaun into acting. he goes through the whole scheme surprise Garibaldis Sheridan, Dillon, and Allie. I'll come out of linear's bedroom.

It's like they just spill out of a closet or something. It's a very

It's a literal clown car in there.

Because, you know, these quarters aren't that big.

No.

were in linear. Squirters right.

Yeah.

suite.

in his bedroom is probably like a mat on the floor.

Yeah.

Well, actually we know what Mubarak beds look like. They're mostly vertical, so it's probably a very small room.

So, yeah, we, they got ya. They got him. So Sheridan's lawyer asked Dylan memoir government is going to contest this evidence or, you know, like object to some sort of public confession or something. But Sheridan. Pulls the Sheridan is like, oh, but do we really need that? And he's got big brain plans. doesn't want to harm linear.

Yeah.

seems to care about Dylan and her people. so Sheridan says that he'll cut a deal that if Sean will just issue a statement about what he really saw. You know, not implicating either of them. a crime. Sheridan's going to turn over the evidence and allow things to continue a status quo.

after this. Uh, veer is hung over. Uh, so hung over. Can't count past 14. Like he pauses and counts in his head and it's just like, when he stops, that's the number he says. It's so good.

I just love. Steven first and

Yeah.

of year.

Lando is a complete asshole here. It's just like, we'll pack up.

He's jerking him around for fun.

Yeah.

he says that. You know, pack up your shit And pack up my shit. Cause if you're leaving, I'm leaving. in reality. If you're just not going to have to go home because he just bunch of glowing reports to everyone. Says that he won't allow to leave. He would leave to. And, you know, I get there, there's an uncle that veer especially wanted to make proud. And

Yeah.

him a nice. Report and phone call veer are so appreciative right up until the moment that Londo tells him he's invited his entire family to the station. For a month.

For a month.

That's that's the Londo. We know.

Yeah. I'm sure this is also a gag. but. Whereas, I don't remember if your family actually shows up at any point.

I mean, it would be fantastic, wouldn't it? But I think I would remember if that

Yeah.

I know we're going to get some other veer, personal life stuff, but I don't think we're getting this moment.

Sheridan catches up with Ivanova. And we see bearable on five, a Teddy bear. Now, this is the story. This, this episode, like I said earlier, was written by Peter David.

Yes.

Peter David knows that JMS apparently hates stuffed animals. Or something like a deranged sociopath like that. Um, And so Peter bought this for JMS as a gag before the episode was written.

Nice.

It's just stay like ha ha. I did an episode about merchandising on and I got you the bear as a joke before I turned in the episode, right.

Uh, huh.

JMS notes. This is the only time he went in and changed a script without talking to the author.

And he, did he add this part? Is that

He added this whole end. whole end is all JMS. Um, so.

very cute. And I think that th that Peter David probably loved it. So.

Yeah, well, that's why the initials on the bearer JS, by the way, it wasn't John Sheridan. Is. It was a, you know, initials. So Susan's keys. So he wrote the scene and put it in the episode without telling. And Peter David found out when it aired. That, uh, when they found out the, who the bear was supposed to be. Uh, he had it spaced.

I thought it was cute. And see, this is one of those things that you remember about the show you remember shared in space. The bear. It's an iconic B. Five moment. You know, it's something that's very memorable. I also think it's very funny that we get Warren kefir as the pilot that discovers this

Oh, yeah, I got to have something. He hasn't been in an episode in a while.

30 seconds of Talia. 30 seconds of Warren kefir. You

Yeah. them in there.

it's cute. would love a bear.

Yeah. This whole episode is great. In fact, I think on a scale of Babylon's one to five, I'm going to go ahead and throw this at a four.

I think I do too well. Yeah.

Maybe four and a half, even. It's a great episode.

I'm going to keep it at four. I'm not going to go that high. I love the merge. Subplot. I think it's cute. And I think it's extra cute that it is written by Peter David. Since Peter David wrote so much star Trek stuff. That you know, obviously that franchise is very heavily merchandised.

Yes.

And so, you know, it feels a little like from his experience. with the franchise and watching the merchandise happen around that franchise. So I think it's a nice little. Wink at how, know, in, uh, in America, especially in, in our Saifai fandoms, we have this tendency to merge everything. There were some parts of the main plot that I was like, Come on. Things things shouldn't be happening to this order. Like we, we should have talked about the gun sooner.

well, it's already turned off its point. It's worthless. You know,

he was obviously an accessory to this crime. Like he was, he was in on it. He was in on doing. Framing

effectively. Yeah. Yeah.

I think. That we should probably follow up on that Garibaldi. there's.

detective. Classes. You caught the bad guy you saved the day. You know what I mean? What's clean up.

Right, right, right, right. We don't have to be super thick. Maybe they're going to send linear after that guy. I don't know. So that doesn't push it into the 4.5. Decimal territory for me, but I, I do like the show and it pushes forward a lot of stuff. And.

Yeah, it's fun. I like everything about this episode. I'm here for it.

Yeah.

next episode, we've got season two episode 16 knives. Sheridan is plagued by bizarre visions. The ambitious Londo encounters and ethical dilemma with an old friend.

I remembered since it's number two. I did not remember sentence number one.

Yeah. Yeah, the APL out on this episode. Well, it's actually the B plot of this episode is the Sheridan. Stuff and even, uh, Well, we'll talk about it next week. Uh, but I've already done the research on this one. And JMS had some feelings about it.

Oh, I can't wait to hear it. All right. Well, that's in store for us next week, everybody. Thank you for being here with us this week. We want to thank Jeremy Siegel for our theme music, you can find more of him at Jeremy Siegel. 40 two.bandcamp.com.

Thank you to angry dock time machine, for our wonderful podcast art.

We hope you'll join us over in our discord or send us an email. If you have some thoughts you'd like to share.

Who are you? At gmail.com. Uh, we'd love for you to join us on the discord. And we'll see you next week.