S2E13 - Cryptic Kosh Conversation

hello, and welcome to who are you? A Babylon five watch cast hosted by two friends who have gotten to know each other while rewatching a show from the childhood Babylon five I'm

And I'm Laura.

And today we're going to play a card game. We did this a couple of weeks ago. I don't remember if we came up with a name for this. I don't think we did.

I don't either.

If we did, please remind us what it was listeners. If you do remember, if we didn't. Then come up with suggestions and we'll pick the one we like.

Yeah, feel free to name our card bit.

Name the card bet. It is the worst contest since the find the rest of the nail on the big Mac contest.

Yeah. Okay. So remind us of the rules.

So we have a bunch of Babylon, five collectible card game cards. We've opened a number of packs in addition to the packs that we've already opened. Since last time to mix up the carpool a little bit. And we have four piles of cards. We have a, actor. So this could be a character, a fleet, a group, something that arrives on the station or is on ,the station. That is involved in a thing. We have the thing that they are involved with, which is the problem. And we have the solution to that problem.

Well, everything we make has gotta be babble on five. Right. But.

Yeah,

let's see.

We did a really good episode last time. That was very pleased with it. So,

Let's see if we get lucky again.

Yep. All right, Laura, take us on our eight plot.

Okay. So I'm the eighth story this time. And. I have. For our main character or a character that's starting the story. I have ref Fen. 10. It was a gray council, religious cast member.

Ah,

And. Ooh. gets himself into a situation. Involving racial hatred. That is my, my second card. So let's see. Racial hatred should involve the humans. Right? I mean that's, that's, uh, The men Baris kind of antagonist there. So.

Yeah. And I've given up the ghost from the war. Still upset about the, um, the murder of Ducati.

Yeah. And he's religious cast. So maybe he's got a pole beef about the soul's thing. He knows about the salt's originally cast knows that the men Bari souls are being reborn in humans. And maybe the solution to this problem is the humans having our souls, as we just eliminate all humans. Right.

Yeah, then the souls have to come back to the MBARI.

Yeah. So he's, he's starting this. Racial hatred, Colt. There's my idea. Okay. And the solution to this problem. You know, it involves Babylon five because some attacks of this cult start happening on Babylon five. So his, his racially motivated religious Colt is. Taking down humans on Babylon five and we have to involve the human. Special ops. So we get a special ops team together. involving Garibaldi of course. also Sheridan, because he's got to be involved for some reason, you

Yeah, for sure. No, he's yeah. He's he's gun tote and he's running in there.

Yeah. And he's teamed up with Dylan because he's, he's crushing on Dylan at this point. Right. And so he's teaming up and they're going to solve this thing together. The twist at the end. Is that, There are several men Bari that are killed in a dramatic and sort of public way. In this process of our resolving our story, and that creates further. Isolationism. Among them in Bari.

All right. Well, that's a strong, a plot.

You think so. All

I think that's a good episode. All right. So our B plot is going to involve a commercial telepaths.

Oh, okay.

Right. specifically a bunch of telepaths are mysteriously, just like they're on their way to the station. And they're shipped gets blown up. And we know as the audience that it is a shadow ship that blows them up.

Okay.

now how they resolve this, uh, they're worried about any possible survivors out there, right? So they send a bunch of ships, but it's pretty far out. But Sheridan, in between everything else, pull some strings and get some emergency military aid.

Okay.

And gets, some earth Alliance ships, you know, maybe it's the Agamemnon, maybe it's one of his buddies or something that are out that way. To go and find the survivors. On the ship. But it ends. In prophecy, one of the telepaths has a vision of the future and shadow attacks.

Okay. Hey. I'm going to RET con a little bit of my story and say that, there's signs of shadow influence on risk, then.

Okay.

well.

There we go.

Okay. So what do you think then?

This is a strong episode. I like this episode. I'd watch this episode.

Do you give it a four or you give it a five? How do you feel.

I really like the concept of the Mim Bari. Sorry, responding to the loss of their souls with like, well, we have to just genocide, the humans. 'cause that seems like something like you find out this is happening. Right. And then you've come to terms that, and then you've got time to process it and think about it. It's like, well, we've noticed we've had a less great souls for. A thousand years or something, whatever it is. Right. And it's like, well, let's just go. Take them back.

Yeah, I think this could be a F a. Babylon five, five episode, like.

Yeah.

You do it in the right way. We get the right actors. It's good.

All right. I'm here for it.

Yeah. Good job.

Just like I am here for today's episode. Season two episode 13. Hunter prey.

so we opened on this episode, we've got one of these great openings that I like a lot where we zoom in from outer space. Onto CNC. great attempt at CGI here. Gary baldies is looking for Sheridan and Ivanova, we've got tense music in the background that. You know, something important is happening and he seems shocked to find out that they've gone to bay 13.

Yeah. bay 13 of course, quarantined. as we find out why? Because CATIA ship is there.

Yeah, cautious ship is there and it's creepy.

Yup. They discuss how little they know about it.

Sheridan gets to close any triggers. The ring doorbell camera slash targeting laser. Now available on amazon.com.

You know, I might. It doesn't sound too bad. Targeting camera man. Yes. You just like flip it on red dots. I think it's someone to back up off your porch.

Yeah, it would, wouldn't it.

Um, only in America. they talk a bit about, what's going on shirt and backs off the gun thing goes away. Ivanova reveals the reason for the core team besides just that. the gun thing popping out of the ship. Is also, considered dangerous because the workers were also having dreams where the ship was speaking to them.

Creepy.

Yup.

That's our second reference to John's and dreams. I think.

Yeah, there's a lot of that in this episode. Well, yeah. And the previous.

Yeah, Sheridan saw him in his dreams.

Garibaldi catches up and as they leave Kosh reveals, he was there watching them the whole time.

Yeah. And his ship says something to him. that we're, we are not to know. But. he's talking to his ship. In Sheridan's office, Garibaldi briefs, everybody that the president's personal physician has gone missing, and he's a trader.

Yep. Dr. Jacobs, and they think he's already on

Yeah.

Orders are shoot to kill despite his status as a civilian.

Yeah, this is very suspicious. to share it. And especially we come back from theme. And we get Cal Hudson.

Yeah, agent Derek Cranston. This is Bernie Casey. He's Cal Hudson on DS. He is also the teacher in bill and Ted's excellent adventure.

Oh, really?

Which is the first have to bill and Ted's excellent adventure actors in this episode.

I caught the other one. I didn't catch this one. I got too excited about Cal Hudson and getting to play the drop again.

yeah.

yeah. so his explanation for authorizing extreme force is that. Jacob's has misused his security clearance. He's gotten data on a bunch of black ops. State secrets. And these could ruin relationships with half the non-aligned worlds. Which he says it just, you know, very blahzay, very it's a. glossed over really quickly, but that's sort of horrifying. Isn't it?

I mean, I feel like this is the kind of stuff that you generally accept governments to do, but you don't want anyone to know, like it's watching the sausage get made. You know, like. I would expect. our government to have a plan for most countries deciding to attack us whether or not there's any realistic. Expectation of that happening.

Yeah, but it's still one of those things you don't want to think about and your brain probably actively avoids thinking about it.

sure. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You don't want, you know, the news to hit and he's like, oh, United States plan to counter invade Russia. And you're just like, oh, that's terrible. Why do we have that? But of course we have that.

Yeah. Somebody's got to. Sheridan agrees to cooperate. He orders Ivanova to search all the outgoing ships, slow down departures and despite mechanical problems. We've you've never done this in your work. Have you

Site mechanical problems to buy time. If I did, I wouldn't be admitting it on podcast.

I've I've certainly never done this. Um, So Cranston leaves, but Garibaldi is feeling super sess about this whole thing.

Yeah. They, they, they know they're not being told everything.

Yeah. But, you know, you got to go along to get along until you have more information, right.

Yeah. Garibaldi, knows where to go to get more information that he goes and speaks to Dr. Franklin. Who of course reveals that he studied under Dr. Jacobs at Harvard for two years. And he vouches for his character. Before being reminded that last time he did that, it went really well for everyone on the station.

Yeah. I, I really wonder also if Jacobs is the one that taught him to take patients back to his quarters. Requisition that spare caught, you know,

hope not.

I had a good laugh, but I really do like it when shows refer to other things that have happened in the show. you know, Garibaldi brings up the plot of infection. and I don't know if this is just cause he, we kind of grew up in that time where shows didn't memory.

Yeah. Yeah, there was no guarantee that you had seen an episode because everything was built for syndication.

Yeah. And so they, they didn't necessarily. Do that self referential thing very often. because. It just didn't work for their medium, but

People have no memory, they will not remember anything. And you can't expect them to, so you don't.

Yeah.

They've made the leap to watching a genre show about a space station in diplomacy. So that must be enough.

Yeah.

we, we do get to meet Dr. Jacobs right after this. And it's Tony Steedman. who was, of course. so crates and bill and Ted. He's looking for an identity card he's in the marketplace and a merchant turns him down because he wants it too bad. And so he has to leave and then out of the shadows comes Richard fucking mole. Richard mole is probably the most that guy of that guys.

Yeah.

I know him mostly from night court where he was bull he's the bailiff in night court. But he is in hundreds, he's all over the place. Like just, just everything from jingle, all the way to, but I'm a cheerleader, he's just in everything. He actually almost had the role of gold to cot. I found out too reading about him, which is something I had no idea.

Oh, my gosh, that would have changed gold. Ducat. But a lot.

Yeah, I mean, mark Alamo is. Uh, How do I want to put this politely? Uh, a fucking creep. I don't know about him personally. I know absolutely nothing about his personal life. Uh, but the character is played like that. And I don't know that. Uh, I feel like, uh, Richard mole would probably play him a bit more as a strong arm kind of military guy instead of a deceptive kind of creepy dude. And we got, would've

Yeah.

different character.

Yeah, mark Alamo was certainly unique and perfect. So. in the hallway, we see Sheridan. It's starting to get on an elevator, but he sees costs creeping around in the hallways.

Yeah, he's straight up. Paul's a Garibaldi here.

Yeah. he goes to try to make some small talk where he subtly calls cash out for being secretive. And then when cosh. questions, why he would want to get to know him better. Sheraton calls him out for being on his dream and this. Is it streamed ship Stripe.

St. I believe.

Yeah, sure. Let's go with that. This whole little exchange was really hard to make notes on because it was so. Kind of cryptic.

CAUTI.

It's hard to make notes about Kosh.

Yeah, I just wrote down. He said he listened to the song.

Yeah.

Which I assume was the chain. Because the chain is so good guys.

So yeah, I guess Sheridan's thoughts became a song is kind of what he was getting at.

We cut over to agent Cranston, who's briefing officer Kentucky, and the rest of the security force. About how they're going to use Dr. Jacob's COVID vaccine chip to find him on the station.

Uh, yeah, so he's he got the COVID vaccine ship. They're using special scanners to find that. Garibaldi brief Sheridan on Cranston's whole thing. But as they're walking, Sheridan spots, a ribbon tied to a corner in a hallway. Which seems very analog for. This particular century. Uh, he makes it an excuse to ditch. Garibaldi heads to the cargo area. Where Sarah, who we identified from the credits. And your card that you

the trading card. Yeah.

Uh, huh. It was apparently waiting for him. So her signal is too. Tie a ribbon to some shit in the hallway.

I hope someone sees it in time. How long do you think she was waiting there?

That's a good freaking question. Isn't

Like 10 minutes, hour.

She's just like, She's just like, in a cargo bay, just chilling. Okay. here's the other thing about the scene that I don't quite get. She tells him that he's in great danger and we go to commercial break. And there's no danger to share it in, in this episode at all.

Yeah. like the. He is fine the entire time we've seen Sheridan in great danger. And it usually involves being kidnapped by aliens. you know, take it up, taking something, a star fury out there to fight some shit that he shouldn't be. He is fine here.

Yeah, she's just ratcheting up the tension to commercial,

He could have been walking around this entire episode in his pajamas. And it would have felt weird, but not like, why are you wearing pajamas to this? Like you should be wearing armor.

Right.

we get the lowdown on what's going on. Jacobs is not a trader, but rather can prove that Clark lied about being sick to get off earth force one. Before president Santiago was killed when it blew up. Tshirt is instructed to get a sworn statement from Jacobs and to get him off the station alive, Sheraton tells Garibaldi who then informs Franklin. We cut to Dr. Jacobs. Who's recording a personal log before going on the run again. And he is almost out of Starbucks and things are about to get rough.

I got a question for you is your fare.

Yeah.

Before these last couple of years. Did you think that it would be bonkers for an investigation into a clear coup attempt? Against a democratic government to take so long.

Oh, no. If anything, this might be more efficient. We're not even six months out at this point.

Yeah,

I. don't want to spend too much time studying this timeframe because it's going to get real depressing real quick.

Right.

Oh, no. Anyways, we cut to Gareth all these quarters and Franklin takes the chance to gloat. But he's batting 500 on personal references here. So maybe he needs to calm it down a bit. Garibaldi throws on a hat. Which I'm sure my dad actually owned a copy of. he calls it to disguise. Another classic homeschool security trick.

Yeah. I think he's right to say that people notice the uniform, not the face and that he will have a bit more. Anonymity down there and down below without his uniform on people will just look right over him. But I think he is wrong to say that that Devon Fidor is an excellent disguise.

Yeah, a hundred percent.

So in a, another hallway, Jacob's is accosted by the. Very tall and creepy man. We saw.

Max we find out his name is later in the episode.

We actually got a name for him where we don't get one for Sarah. He's got him pegged. He knows this person in the nice suit. Doesn't belong here. He quickly puts it together that he's running away from something and they start going through his clothes. They find the data crystal, and then they find his presidential pocketwatch.

Hm.

Which you probably shouldn't have carried on you if you were trying to hide, but It's fine.

Yup. Agent Cranston is conducting the search and is convinced they have narrowed down the area to where Dr. Jacobs is to down below. But Sheridan makes mention of a heavily OLED filled area with machinery called downtown. Cranston jumps on this is all like, oh, you're a genius. And it's all poor it's weld on. Ivana was like, they're going to have to cut through how many doors did he's just like 47. It's just like, oh, Oh, this is going to take a while.

I love that she calls him out too on the downtown name. She's like really?

I mean, it worked.

I agree though, could have been more inventive. At Corban calls right at the end of the scene. Until Sheridan that ambassador Kosch would like to speak to him.

Yeah, this is a big deal because this has never happened. Ever cautious never said he actually wanted to talk to someone before.

Yeah. Exciting.

After this, Garibaldi and Franklin are in down below and they eat some Nutri-Grain bars and wax poetic about the promise of the future and never living up to what everyone thought it would be. Much like neutral gain bars.

I thought this was really insightful. I was like, wow. He wrote. A description of how millennials feel about everything. Before we were even grown up. Like neat. So Franklin after the finishes is Nutri-Grain bars spots, the. Vendor from earlier. And now he's trying to hock that presidential watch. He's trying to sell it. Uh, it's funny that he was so smart earlier that he didn't step in the big pile of shit. That was Jacob's whole mess. But he got really dumb, really fast.

Uh, watch from the president.

right. right.

I can sell that. Garibaldi just harasses the shit out of him. Until he gets the information that he wants.

Yup. Good thing. You're not in uniform, I guess.

Uh, Meanwhile, max calls Cranston and secure is a 10 K finder's fee For turning over the doctor. Sheridan goes to cautious quarters and they have atypical cryptic cosh conversation. Although he does get a real nice, never asked that when he's all like, what do you want?

Yeah,

But he does say it three times before cautious, like, Hey.

That's offensive.

Right.

Uh, he tells Sheridan, he's going to teach him about himself. Until he's ready to fight legends. So I don't. Yeah. it's very, very cautious. And down below Garibaldi and Franklin have found the kidnappers hide out. well, they're liberating. Jacob's gear bald. He gets himself stabbed because of course. And, Jacob's tells Franklin that max has the data crystal. So Garibaldi decides he's going to have to stay and get that crystal because

Yeah.

copy these files. We've got a big problem.

Yeah, Dr. Franklin forgets the general harm part of the Hippocratic oath here real quick and just start swinging FIS. He just jumps into this fight. Garibaldi gets stabbed and he's all like got some fighting.

It's those, uh, instincts.

So they decided they're going to split up the party and track down the data crystal and also get Dr. Jacobs out of there.

Yeah. So Garibaldi waits. He's got the flunky tied up. Max comes back. Garibaldi gives us a really fun, dramatic monologue while he's also target, practicing.

Yeah.

max gives up real quick.

He's just like. He's so casual about fucking lethal force here. Just like this guy. We don't even know if he's armed. Right? Like he does not like he pulled a gun on Garibaldi and he's just shooting around him. It is horrifying.

I wouldn't be surprised if this max is the kind of criminal that knows not to carry a weapon on him, because that's going to make whatever he's doing. An automatic felony. And so he just does it.

He's got a knife. He's got a little knife. We see a couple of times, but you're probably right. It's probably different with a gun. Yeah, it's a small knife. So.

That's a pretty small blade.

Yeah. Just Garibaldi in this scene. Like if Garibaldi was a 20-something in 2008, he would still be dressing as the joker for Halloween. It's the vibe that I get.

Yup. Oh, I, I dated someone who dresses the joker for Halloween.

But like once or like a bunch. Because there was that one Halloween where literally everyone was the joker. And like not, not a great character. a hundred percent to try to emulate. but you know, you do it once. Okay. Yeah. It's, you know, how did I get these scars or whatever, right. Like we want to see a magic trick, like, yeah. Okay. That was in a fun, important movie for you, I guess. One year you get a pass, but multiple years.

Yeah. For him, it's like a kind of a serious cost play thing. And there are lots of reasons that relationship didn't work out.

Uh, and it's Cranston is pissed about, getting the run around and share it. And, it's just like, oh, okay, well, the doctor needs me by and talks everything over with Jacobs. They get the crystal, the password and they have a plan to get Dr. Jacobs off of the station., before these scanners kick in, because they found out that they could just use the station scanners.

As we've done, I think at least twice before.

Yeah.

Although to be fair. The last time they did it shared in a Garibaldi kept messing stuff up because they were having boomer problems.

It's true.

So, Sheridan's got a plan. We cut straight to Ivanova offering the internal scanners to Cranston. They've gotten it ready. In the background, Corwin is telling us that ambassador cautious, ready to leave.

This part doesn't make sense to me. So, okay. Well, let's run through it real quick. And then I'm gonna tell you my gripe. So they go through this whole thing. They scan the station. He's not on the station. Right? Then cautious ship leaves. Right. And they're like, we'll scan the ship and it's all like one life form. Non-human cause it's the ship as we find out. Right. It's a living thing. And it's like, okay.

Oh, yeah, Ivanova said at the very beginning, we've tried scanning it.

Yeah.

haven't learned anything. Okay. Yeah,

Why does his ship have to leave the station? And go jump away with Dr. Jacobs. Then he could just hang out in the bay. And be there. This, the they've already passed the scan. And the ship

huh.

until after.

And we know that if you approach the ship. It targets you with its laser with its ring doorbell. So

one's getting in there.

in that ship. Yeah,

just leave it in the bay. It doesn't need to leave. I mean, it's nice to get a little bit of drama. And you could have the thing you could still do the scan and bay 13. It's all like, well, it's just ambassador costs your ship. You know, like it's the one thing we can't scan inside. And then they're just like, we'll scan it. You could still do the thing. I don't. I don't know, it's just like, it's already done. Like you've already scanned the station.

Yeah, no I'm with you.

Checkoffs non operable scanner tells us that this isn't a plot problem. Yeah, Cranston's past, he can't do anything about it. Sheridan rubs his nose and shit to commercial.

Yeah. And then we come back to the command staff, all entering bay 13 after cautious ship has returned. The whole patterns are moving, which is a cool effect. I do like it every time we see that. And, Sheridan confirms the, to the ship is organic and the live. That's why it's registered a non-human life form, the ship reaches out and deposits a small package. The covering deteriorates and we see Jacobs in his little fetal position coma.

Yup. Sheridan meets again with his resistant agent contact. And delivers the data crystal and they arrange for Jacobs to be taken off to a safe space.

Two things here. One she's very high on the melodrama. And. she tells him directly that he scored a major victory for the good guys, which might be the most suspicious thing you could possibly say right there.

Right.

If you have to tell me you're the good guys. I'm not so sure anymore. And seen.

Yep. That's the episode.

So now I am dying to know Jah fare.

Yeah.

do you feel about this episode?

Kinda mad about this episode to be perfectly honest. Like it wasn't a bad episode, but it wasn't a good episode. The stuff with cautious ship was kind of cool. Um, and there's yeah. And. I mean, as far as like long-term stuff like knowing what cautious actually saying. Knowing what, uh, you know, there's a little bit in there about what they look like under the encounter suits. And it's all like, you're not ready for that. And knowing that they're not ready for that.

There is something that I was wondering is going to, if it's going to get referenced later, that Kosch says. I think it's in the first conversation. Sheridan asks him if that's ever happened before. I think he's referencing, you know, showing up in my dream. Like hearing the song. And he says, Kosh says once. And I was like, I don't remember.

Oh,

out what he's

It's I think it's with the Len. I think it's with Dylan and the Chrysalis.

Okay.

the, The implication, but I'm not a hundred percent on that.

Okay.

also in things I didn't clock, but I read on the line, apparently some of the language Kosh uses is. Very specifically pulled from the,, short story. Childhood's end.

Oh, really?

Which if you were familiar with. Um, is a spoiler for what? The more lens look like.

Okay.

Um, I don't know.

That's an Arthur C. Clark,

Yeah, so, uh, childhood's end. Is a, this is going to be super spoiler town. So just fast forward, like. To maybe a minute right now. Listener maybe minute and a half. Uh, I'll try to get through it really quick. I'll just do the plot twist. So child's end. Ellen show up on earth. Make it a utopia elevate everyone, but refuse to let their pre. Like what their physical appearance be seen is right. They're like, you're not ready. You know, all this stuff, right.

That's like, that's one of the classics.

dance, solid, solid a adaption. All right,

Okay. But.

now. Listener.

What was the other thought that you said, interrupted you with a thought.

Yeah, the rural and stuff is kind of cool. Um, It's just like. Kind of a blog episode.

There's so many little holes in it for me.

Yeah.

Like. Like you pointed out with cost or ship, like it didn't actually need to leave. We don't get the whole, any of the conversation were shared and goes to caution, says, Hey, I need you to do this for me. Like. That would have been an interesting, or could have been an interesting conversation to see. Like. We've had just a couple of cryptic conversations with him. How are you going to convince him that you. I need to hide this

on your ship.

From my government. Um, I've been told to find him, but I need you to hide him. Uh, there's. A lot of explanation there that goes just glossed over. And then just a little writing things like, like the you're in great danger when he's not in great danger at all. It was just like, we got to ratchet up the tension with something, you know, so I don't think it's my favorite.

You know what I didn't check that I normally do. Who wrote this episode?

Oh, yeah, that's very good question.

Oh,

it on the last one

it's a JMS. Okay. Yeah. I think we're in, I think we got one or two left in the season that aren't. But I don't think there are many.

Yeah. So, I don't know. I feel like it was. Not any better than average.

Yeah. Um, um, it's a solid three out of five for me. Just. And it's only because the, uh, stuff with the Varroa and ship was really cool.

I do. I do like the stuff we learned about the borderlines. It was very memorable for me, even though Jacobs himself, wasn't quite as memorable. all the stuff we learned about the ship and the fact that we had somebody on it. It's something I remembered. So it's kind of on the low side of three for me, but it's, it's an average episode. Of Babylon five.

All right.

But what is our next episode of Babylon five, going to beach affair.

Well, the next episode on, HBO, max. Is season two, episode 14 and now for a word. The reporter arrives on Babylon five is a battle erupts and crew members and ambassadors give revealing interviews. I do make that distinction because this is actually different than the air order. Um, The air order had their honor lies as the next episode. Uh, but we get in now for a word. In this area. so what we'll be doing. The HBO max order.

I remember this being a very unique. And fun premise for an episode at least. I don't actually remember much of the plot.

Yeah, I like, I remember this episode happening, but I don't really. As far as what happens in it. I don't think I could tell you offhand. So I'm looking forward to watching it again.

Me too. Well, thank you to Jeremy Siegel. At Jeremy Siegel, 40 two.bandcamp.com for our theme music.

Thank you too angry duck time machine for our podcast art. And

thank you, you guys for listening? Oh,

appreciate it. No. Yeah, go ahead. Shoot us an email. Who are you before? At gmail.com, uh, hit us up on our discord.

Yeah.

It's a fun community there. You should join it. If you want.

You know,

Yeah. Yeah. You know, I'm not going to be the podcast that says here in begs you to join our discord. If you want to, we'd be happy to have you.

Yeah, exactly.

Hm.

Well, will see you next week, internet.