Hello, and welcome to who are you? A Babylon five watch cast hosted by two friends who have gotten to know each other and will continue to get to know each other while rewatching a classic show from the childhood Babylon five Fair.
And I'm Laura.
And today, Laura, I get to ask you. Who are you?
Well, Uh, when we talk about who we are. Sometimes I don't really think about. The things I've been in the past, you know, Cause they're not like currently active.
That's fair.
And so I kind of discount that, but lately. A couple of weeks ago, something got me thinking about who I was when I was little Laura, you know, and little Laura became big Laura, so that's valid there too. Two valid people. And little Laura was, you know, every kid has something that they're super into. Right. So. Little Laura was into reptiles. Right. Yeah, I was the reptile kid. Not weird at all.
Now I have to ask initially, just, just off the bat. Um, knowing that we were of, I think I was eight when drastic park came out. It was this, this is heavily influencing this, this, uh, turn in you as a child.
Well, so I was like a dinosaur kid before Jurassic park. And then Jurassic park came out and I was kind of scared of that movie. I was. Aye. I was the kid that got really immersed in the movie. And so those things scared me. And so like, The dinosaur thing I kind of gave up on and switched to reptiles because there weren't any like super scary movies yet about reptiles. There were a lot of B movies. I'm sure. But, but little Laura, wasn't watching those.
But. Little Laura, especially loved turtles. Turtles were her thing.
Did You have a favorite turtle?
Oh, yes.
What was your favorite
I mean sea turtles. As a group would probably be my favorite, the green sea turtle.
Okay.
Leatherback sea turtle. You know, that's the biggest one. I have a lot of those little facts still left in my brain about turtles and reptiles and stuff. And I. Thought just everybody knew. This much stuff about reptiles, but I'm constantly like. Being reminded lately that. Not everybody does.
Yeah. I, I feel like I know very little about reptiles. Um, I know enough to avoid them in the desert. And that's, that's the extent of my knowledge. Oh, it's something that's living in the desert. It's probably not good for me. I'm just going to stay away from it. That's just kinda my general rule of all creatures, all bugs. And I thought I've spent a lot of time in the desert. I've I've done some hiking. Um,
that's probably when you really want to stay away from them in the desert is when you're hiking.
Yeah.
I almost feel a little bit cheated that we spend all that time in New Mexico. And I didn't see a single rattlesnake. my husband told me that when he was a child too, about Owen's age, they moved to Oklahoma. Right. And he was terrified. Did not want to move to Oklahoma because he thought he was going to. See, so many rattlesnakes and get bit by a rattlesnake. Uh, the man has lived 30 years in Oklahoma. Never seen a rattlesnake.
Even though we have about, I think there's six or seven different types here in, in Oklahoma. Yeah. We get like the, the Eastern brands of rattlesnake that are on the Eastern side of the United States. We get the Western ones, we get the Western diamond back and all the, you know, good deserty ones. And then we have a couple of our own.
Oh, nice. Nothing I've ever had to worry about up here in Michigan.. Almost everything that can survive. Our winter is not poisonous. So.
Wow. You don't
really got much of a concern.
do you get
Uh, I've. I there's. Everyone has a story of like their friends, cousins, uncle. College roommate. saw a rattlesnake once, but. No, no one. I actually know. I believe. Uh, and I know someone will listen to this and come forward afterwards. I'm sure. Um, I'll hear a story tomorrow, even before this episode is released. has actually, in-person seen a rattlesnake in the state. My dad encountered one. In the Dakotas once.
Okay. I could see that.
Yeah. He was out there, pheasant hunting. And so we had a shotgun. So when the rattler started making noise, he just shot it just like instinctively, just shot it immediately.
That's crazy.
Yeah. He brought home the rattler.
Well, that's kind of cool. Those are
I think it's. In a box in my garage right now, along with all of his various hunting trophies.
Well, if you're looking for like some cheap entertainment, I say, join the Oklahoma snake identification page. they are like a bunch of snake, reptile nerds. Who have this page for you to, if you're in the. You know, out in the sticks and oh no, there's a snake. You take a picture, you can send it to them. They'll tell you exactly what it is within minutes.
is. this something you do in your free time?
I love to, I love to browse this thing. Because. Uh, there's a lot of people misidentifying and, and like everything is a copperhead to some people it's not You know, And you learn a lot, you learn a lot about snakes and you know, there's a chance that wherever you are, if you're in the United States, that is. That you might have a snake that ranges in our state. And you can learn more about them or see more. About, like what they look like in their various forms.
Because some of these snakes, when they're babies. They look way different. Than the grownups.
Yeah. I mean, they molt. That makes sense. I guess. For, I say, knowing that I know nothing about snakes or reptiles in general, that makes sense. Butterflies and caterpillar. Yeah. It all checks out.
It is a hoot. I love to follow it. And. You know, turtles were my thing, but I feel like I'm learning more about snakes and, and. Fi being less scared of them. Like when I was a kid. And I. Uh, worked for the. State parks department. I was a volunteer. And they had some snakes, so we could hold. And show them to people. A speckled king snake and an Eastern hognose snake. I was pretty chill with snakes, but as I got older, I don't know what happened to me.
I got kind of like, really scared of snakes. So I'm trying to like exposure therapy myself, back into a little bit of reptile nerd. So get less scared.
I don't know if I'm afraid of snakes. There's like, There's two types of fear, right? This is a conversation. I've had a number of times that this is a, I guess, a theory that, My friend, Chris, from draft the universe. And I have posited before which is, there's two types of fear. There's the fear of cowardice and the fear of respect.
Hmm. Okay.
and the fear I have of snakes. And most things that can be poisonous is definitely the fear of respect.
Right.
It's you know, like my table saw. Um, you know what I'm doing woodworking I'm afraid of my table saw it's terrifying. It's a giant blade. Yeah, it's, it's a show, very sharp metal things spinning very, very fast. And if something goes wrong with it, if I'm lucky, I'll lose a finger. Like, that's not even close to the worst thing that could happen using a table saw.
You know, So, you know, so it's like that, that kind of respect the fear of respect, you know, like I am aware that you are dangerous and so I will pay you the respect that you're due for it. As opposed to the fear of cowardice where it's just like snakes. Nope. I don't touch snakes, you know, it's like, you know, it's, there's, it's different.
Yeah, I think that it's very instinctual that. when you're a child, you don't fear as many things. And then I developed like this instinctual and it's like, well, maybe if I know more about it, Then I won't feel as afraid. I can still feel that respect. I can still. keep a healthy space of distance between me and any wild snake that I see. But I won't be like heart-pounding freaking out because there's a snake.
Yeah. I mean, it's all about having that knowledge. You know that knowledge of that snake or that knowledge of another's culture, much like this episode of Babylon five.
knew. you could do it.
Ah, oh, it's got to get there. Anyways. so we've got season two episode 12, acts of sacrifice. which is a very apt title because both the, a storyline and the B storyline do involve a act of sacrifice.
Hmm, I hate this. I hate this double meaning. I mean, I think I hate it in the same way that Jeff fare. I hated. grow pose in some ways.
Yeah, that's fair.
All right. So we open up on a non Centauri skirmish. cruisers trying to get some civilian ships out of the area, but it's not going well.
Yeah, the heavy cruiser totally takes the hit for the school bus.
Yeah. It
Has it flies through the warp gate.
Yeah. So this is the first of several acts of sacrifice we're going to get in this episode. We, we have a nice transition out of this. You know, the, the command ship, deciding to place themselves in the line of fire and get exploded. to Dzhokhar and he's playing this video. Four. The Babylon five command staff.
Yeah, he's outraged over the unprovoked attack on a civilian target. Sheridan says he'll talk to earth gov about it. Dzhokhar's convinced if earth intervenes, the rest of the galaxy will follow.
Yeah. Apparently Londa was also invited to this talk and he decided not to come and sent a statement saying, you know, the, the thing that you would always say in this situation,
Yeah, they totally had weapons of mass destruction.
Yeah. The civilians were a shield for military targets. Sheridan seems to believe what Dzhokhar's saying. And does promise to assist. I like the quote that he gives us here about the first casualty of war is the truth.
Yeah.
That's true.
Sure is.
so I get to, uh, apologize to you. Jafar several episodes back. There was a species that was mentioned in. share it and talking about the species that he had seen, and he tells us this glorious, like. you know, they were. Beautiful. And the ship was amazing and it was just like his first contact experience. We saw nothing of them. I, I said that we were going to see them later. Cause I did, I Googled the name of that race, which is escaping me at this moment.
And when I Googled the name of that race. These guys came up. And so I assumed they were the same race. but we're not going to get that race this year. It had mentioned. Several episodes back late later. Uh, we just get these guys.
Well, BU. Um, we get the Lumosity. They're coming to the station. they're technologically advanced, but they don't interact with any of the other species really. And so it's very important for earth to establish diplomatic relations with them. given the current state of the galaxy and all of the unknown pressures of everything. We need these guys in our back pocket. We need to make more friends.
Yeah. He delegates dealing with the Lumosity to Ivanova. And I laughed because he tells her to get them to sign on to the Alliance by any means necessary.
Yeah, whatever you have to do, that is not ominous at all. Not like this ominous episode title. we come, we go to theme and when we get back, Dylan in Jakarta or going over the same footage, uh, Shakara was going over with the command staff. Dylan brings up a valid point here. the Nard have made clear that they too desire war. It's, it's not that they don't want this war that they're losing so badly.
Right.
Right.
She throws some of Dzhokhar's words back in his face saying you want. You said you would destroy them. Yeah.
She really heavily implies here that if they intervene on behalf of the non. And by weakening the centaury military. They would be complicit in the genocide of the centaury, the Nardo Blakely to commit a few years after.
Yeah, she says If we help you now, this entire you're just going to need more help in a few years. So. I mean, I. I take her point. I understand it.
she tells Chicago, her people are tired of war. Chikara insist that diplomacy is not an option. And we cut to Zach Allen breaking up a bar fight, before it gets started between some centaurian Nara. And it's a real quick cut, but it is important for later.
you know, I'm wondering about the episode order. If this episode aired. When it did. I know we talk about episode order a lot, but she said that thing about her people are tired of war. Uh, it didn't in the previous episode, we just put a fourth. Warrior cast person on the
Oh, yeah, her people are not tired of war. Her people are ready for war right now. Dylann is tired of war on their behalf.
I wonder, you know, if, if this was in a different spot, it would, that statement would make the most sense. cause she doesn't yet know that. The gray council itself is like preparing for war.
Well, the episode order has matched the episode order in my Seasoned guide books that I have. And those were published during the fifth season of Babylon five. So. I got to imagine whatever episode order we're in right now. It is not as wonky as season one was.
Okay.
And then we cut away from that to the Lottie. Arriving at the station and we get to meet our two guest stars of this episode.
yeah.
We get Ian Abercrombie. Is the ambassador. he is the first of three Alfred's we get in Babylon five.
Oh, really?
Yeah. none of the super famous ones, but almost all of the animated ones have roles.
Oh, how fun.
And, this is the first. And it is a he's Alford in the birds of prey. Live action show.
Oh,
And then we get, Paul Williams is talk. Which is crazy to me because I had no idea under that loaf. And then I, his voice sounded familiar to me. And I'm just all, like, I know that voice, but who is that? And it's Paul Williams. of course being the Oscar and Emmy award winning singer songwriter. Uh, he's worked with Sinatra. He wrote a bunch of the music for a star is born. The original was Streisand, a three dog night. Uh, he worked. A ton on random access memories with daft punk.
Like he is all over the place.
He has an excellent air in this whole episode, just the way he speaks. And, and he is a great narrator voice.
Yeah. Talk, talk, talk.
Uh,
Yeah. Yeah. And let his character name is his function. I don't know if that was like a JMS joke. like dag ear. Okay. With the little windows, wives, or if it's like, actually just so simple. That it's just how their culture handles things. Like everyone in that position is named talk because they talk.
Fantastic.
Anyways talk speaks for the ambassador. So he doesn't have to lower himself by speaking to a lesser species. And if he determines that humanity is worth their time, then he'll actually talk to them.
It is just horrific that no one warned Ivanova about this. I mean, somebody had to know, right. Somebody already knew that this is how we handle. Other species we've talked to them in some way. But Ivana. Hannah is very graceful sheets. She takes this as well as one can.
After this, we cut to Londo who just hates the fame. He's just sick of being famous already.
He's got a, a C here, fan sucking up to him and his quarters. Looking for political favors. He wants Londo to. Well, he offers Londo some contraband, including the Shaquan. Kwan ETH plant. Aye. I thought that was a nice touch. to get Llanos good word and the right years, And he says he'll make some discreet inquiries, but he also has a headache.
let's get out of here. I'm tired of everyone's sucking up to me.
Sure. Go ahead. Londo.
He's really Lamenting all the power that he's built in gathered for himself. Just he weight.
we cut to a brawl in the hallway. We've got Those Centauri that were instigating a bar fight back in the casino. hurling insults at Narins are now trying to beat them with lead pipes. Zach shows up again to break it Up. but one of the NARKN picks up a pipe. And lunges for the remaining Centauri. Zack tries to warn him to put it down. But he refuses and Zack fires. Killing the unnamed Dennard.
Yep. I mean, this was. This unfortunately has been something that is timely in American culture for long enough, where this was timely back. When this episode aired. You would have been talking about Rodney king back then instead of. Uh, like George Floyd now. But. Uh, man, it just. Uh, I just, I, this was really difficult for me. And. Yeah.
I don't know how to talk about it because. You know, there's that clear? Like he's still aggressing when he's been told not to. Um, but he also, he brought a pipe to a gunfight. Like. Uh, it's not.
He does. She does charge him like. Like actually, he does actually charge him. He does actually make an aggressive action instead of just being there.
Yeah.
Which is unfortunately what we've seen all too often.
So in Sheridan's office. Dzhokhar and shared an argue about this incident. Sheridan wants to help. But. Uh, NAR and refusing to comply with our earth force personnel has made it hard. Jared and reiterate, you know, this is neutral territory. If you can't control yourselves here, you're going to have to leave. Because you compromise the neutrality of this place, this space.
It's true. The neutrality is what makes Babylon five Babylon five.
Right.
Otherwise it'd be another earth force station.
Right. If you're jeopardizing that neutrality, then it stops being what it is. And so you will have to go.
We've got some MetaLab where Franklins morals get questioned by the libertarian ADI. And they're like, bro. It's survival of the fittest and just let them die. Like have you been read Atlas shrugged Idiocracy was a warning to be acted on, not satire, like what's wrong with you?
It's so, so horrifying to come. Cause I remember this episode from when I was a kid and I remember it being cringy. Like I I've cringed at this episode all my life and I continue to do so. Uh, but also the limb ADI are super into eugenics.
Uh, so fun fact JMS I'd use net said that these two characters were specifically inspired by Bob Dolan, nuke, Anchorage.
Oh, my God. Oh, how, how flattering for Bob Jola? Newt Gingrich.
Yup.
Oh man. So yeah. The doctor gets his, you know, his special brand of righteously, angry about all this.
A hundred percent.
Oh, Ivanova tries to scoot them along. and the, uh, Lumata condescendingly told the doctor that his strange ideas will pass with time. Just like. You'll get more conservative as you get older. I've heard that one. Have you heard that one?
Oh, have I heard that one?
Oh boy.
we cut to Londo at the casino who has been waiting for Garibaldi to show up. because he really just wants a friend.
Yeah, this is
but Garibaldi is, he's not interested. He's like, I don't even know who you are anymore. Alondo like, You're trying to buy my friendship now. Like, what is this? Get fuck off Londo. Like who are you? I don't even know anymore. who are you Lando?
It does tell me that something very nice about Garibaldi though. He's clearly that friend who, when they loan you money. Just considers it a gift because he didn't expect to get this money back from Londo. Like I think that's a very healthy way to look at loaning money to friends. You know, if you get it back. Great. And if you don't, you made him a gift. So, that's very healthy. Congratulations, Garibaldi.
Yeah, don't loan. Anyone money, you wouldn't give money
Right. And don't loan money you don't have. So he's clearly not put himself at any sort of risk of not eating by loaning this money to Garibaldi. It was, you know, Freely given because he had it to freely give. but everybody's afraid of Londo now.
Yeah, well, I mean, rightfully so he is kind of mysteriously destroying entire quadrants of space.
Yeah. And he can tell all these, you know, Groupies. And hangers on are not real friends. And he's sad and it is. Sad in a way.
He just wants a friend who isn't there. Just for their own self-interest.
But this is definitely a situation he created by his own actions and
A hundred percent.
have. had a little bit of forethought to foresee, but. You know, Garibaldi does cave. He promises to stop by later. And every time they cut to this bar tender. The it's just so, so sad because you can tell, she knows the truth. You can tell she seen this kind of interaction. Hundreds thousands of times.
Yeah.
It's very sad. Oh, you know, most of the people she's having this interaction with aren't like genocidal monsters. They might be some other kind of presumably. You would think you would have hear that about, you know, in universe at some point, but.
All all types on Babylon five. we cut to Dzhokhar telling us people on the station to stay in line. But if they really want to fight, they can go join the military. It's like. Yeah. If you want to go kill some Centauri, go kill some Centauri. Just go to Homeworld. Sign up for the military. You'll get your chance. Don't act all big and strong. When you can jump somebody behind the fucking bar.
He used to stop being an armchair freedom fighter. And I do find like armchair experts on things, particularly frustrating myself. So I totally get it Jakarta.
Immediately after Dzhokhar walks away, they can listen
Yeah, they just pull him out of the hallway and stab him as they kill message.
just like, oh yeah. What's your car stab.
And not only that, but they're going to kill all Centauri on the station and six hours is what they've decided. very
Mike Everett, everyone go take a nap in six hours. We're killing all of us in Tori.
Like, what do you think is going to happen? After you've killed all the Centauri on the station at six hours late. I don't know. Nope. They're not. It's the little lizard brain, right? The little amygdala. Or whatever you would call it in a Nard. Firing and doing the wrong things.
Yup. So in MetaLab they confirm, but not completely that the centaury was killed by an ARN. Garibaldi wants to tell Londo, but Sheridan tells him he can't. And this is what actually, I feel prevents Garibaldi from joining Londo.
Yeah.
They don't explicitly say it, but I think Garibaldi is like, you got to tell Londo and he's all like, you can't tell Londo, that's an order. It's just going to make things worse. This is why he stands Londo up
Yeah, I think that's. It's a very good. Good. Read of it. And I think Sheridan's completely. Reasonable though right here.
Yeah, he's got a point. A hundred percent. It's just going to escalate more violence.
And you can, you can hide behind bureaucracy if you need to. Like, we couldn't sign off on anything until we had something conclusive on the autopsy. Like I totally get why he's doing it.
After this, the Lumata crash of, on of his quarters on a
Oh, my God. Oh, my God.
Uh, it's so cringy. Uh, they're just rude as hell. start just. And pushing around under stuff, they steal a piece of her
Yes. Part of her pajamas. We know that's her pajamas. Because if we haven't seen it yet, we will see it later. That that's what she wears to sleep. And, you know, they they're there because ostensibly, they want to see something real on the station. They think that she's curating their experience, that she's trying to set things up to show off the best parts of Babylon five and the best parts of humanity. And they want to see all the real nitty gritty. Which apparently involves her panty Gerard.
Uh,
Uh, the Narcan's. Yeah. Uh, just. The. Anyways, the Narcan's by some swords from the mall gift shop vendor.
Please and knives. Yeah.
Yeah.
At the mall gift
Yeah. Did you have one of those that the mall gift shop that sells
Is that in Spencer's that feels like Spencer's right.
I don't. I mean, it was always like some unnamed place.
Yeah. Like a local. Establishment. Definitely.
Yeah, and it was just gift shop and it was always just like rugs and swords. And random in chotchkies, you know?
That's gone out of fashion. Hasn't it.
Sure has. Actually, uh, I watched a tick tock earlier. I should say I was sent a Tik TOK earlier because that's the actual truth of it. That is with someone looking at a bunch of tchotchkes. Key shelves in a, uh, In a like Goodwill and they're just like in 30 years, this is going to be all Funko pops.
Nice. back. Okay. I actually had three scrub points in this episode. Now that I'm looking at it. So we cut back to Sheridan's office. And we have, him talking to an earth force representative on the TV. About the Narcan situation.
Yeah, general Richard Cunningham.
Yeah. About 25 0 8. On the HBO max scrubber. why is this man sitting front of so many fans? He's just sitting in front of a wall of fans. You guys, you got to look at it. It's very funny. I don't know where he
This was actually called out by JMS. Someone had used that, notice this, when the episode aired, it was all like, what is going on? Why is he in front of a bunch of fans? And JMS is like, honestly, I have no idea. I was editing the day that they filmed this and I just saw the footage afterwards and was furious. Um, But we always appreciate more fans here at Babylon
Nice.
He went for the pun.
I laughed really hard. It's one of those things, if you're just watching it surface level and you're just, you're just like, oh, it's a guy on the, on the TV. What? Okay. But if you're looking behind him, It's like at least nine to 12 fans. It's very funny. But anyway. Mr fan decides, that earth force can't give any official help.
Yeah.
not, we're staying out of this.
Sheridan takes the note and reaches out to Dylan.
Meanwhile, Natasha is alerting Dzhokhar to the mass murder plot. Dzhokhar decides he's got to take care of this himself. Natasha insists on coming with, she's not going to let him go down there by himself.
Yep. we, we moved to the libertarian naughty, admiring the lack of an economic net and welfare that the station provides.
there's so much lack of an economic safety net that at 26 0 6. This is my scrub point. Number two.
The roast and the
The roasting lizards. Over like a barrel.
Is this what prompted a year? Who are you earlier? I wanted to ask then, but I figured we'd hit it
Oh, my God. It's just subconscious. Really? My brain just putting together things like thinking about lizards and. Reptiles. We did see a lot of lizards in New Mexico. Yeah.
Ah, yeah, that checks.
man. So yeah, we're roasting lizards.
We get a whole speech here about how humans have the strength to segment off their inferior instead of just mercy, killing them. And that they can use them as a workforce without the a means for growth or challenge. And that they're just going to Institute this back home. It's all like a class system. Oh, we never thought about this.
And avant. Felt. Comfortable referring to these people with the derogatory. You know, lurker designation. So like clearly she's internalized. Some of this is totally fine herself.
She's just appalled though. Like at this description of the economic situation, which is a hundred percent accurate.
It's an accurate description for sure. Uh, she has the good sense to be embarrassed about it, but they love it.
Yeah, so much so that the ambassador speaks without talk. You know, A a diplomatic backbone for Alliance must be formed on a cultural similarity. Not a tactical advantage. And this is ours. I was just like, oh God.
really fucking dark. I never caught that as a child, but that is really fucking dark.
Yeah.
We're our similarities of culture that we, you know, We practice eugenics and you guys kind of are too. You just don't know it.
Yeah, you're just embarrassed about it. Y it's genius. You guys are great at this. Much more efficient than what we're doing.
Yeah. So they decided to, Go off and discuss what terms they're willing to offer in this Alliance. Hooray.
Dzhokhar, goes and beats up that NARKN.
they, they you're rallying for the lynching and Dzhokhar Berson. To assert his authority. Jakarta and the NARKN leader of this little group challenge, one another to a fight. Uh, it looks very crouching tiger, hidden ARN. We got our. Arms out. Uh, And the final scrub point happens in this. Scene where? Uh, at 29, 26, we have some great fight choreography, obviously. and. Well, the Narin leader, just like leapfrog. Frog's right over to Dzhokhar's back before getting his ass handed to him.
Yeah, just this arm just broken in one swing. And it's terrifying.
Dzhokhar yells at them to go home. if peace on the station is going to help win the war at home, then they are going to have to just do it.
Yup.
The NARKN leader, stabs, Jakarta, and the back. before Dzhokhar is able to deck him. but Natasha helps your car out without, you know, calling for medical assistance. He wants to walk away strong. It was only a little poisoned. That's what he tells us.
A little poison.
How do you know. You've only been a little poisoned. Oh, well,
The fact that you can feel that your points and it all means that you're probably more than a little poison.
Right.
Anyways, after this Sheridan, Dillon discuss using Franklins underground railroad to get medical supplies and food to the NARKN and to get civilians out, not in an official capacity. They note that they can't do a lot, but they can do something.
Yeah, we've got excess food around here. If you've got some MRA transports who will take it. You know, then together we can do something it's not. You know, it's not nothing and we can get a few people out. Dylan points out, you know, this is very risky. But, uh, Sheridan believes this is a matter of conscience, not convenience, so good on him.
We cut back to the Lumosity who want to finalize the Alliance, the traditional way. Fucking. And Ivanova fix a phone call To Corrine.
yeah.
get herself the hell out of there.
She does the time honored tradition that we ladies are all known to. Do we phone a friend?
Um, yup. Uh, I, I do have a bit of commentary on this right now.
it.
I'm not saying that this is good or correct in either regard. Just to get it out there off the top. I'm not trying to suggest this is a good way to do anything. Especially the cavalier way of which it is brought about because he just starts on rubbing. In Sheraton's office.
office. That's
But for a moment of introspection. On our own human culture. How different is this from Royals getting married off to secure alliances in medieval
Oh, yeah, no, that that's definitely like a. historical basis for it. Right.
Or arranged marriages throughout most of history. Like it's, it's really almost a more civilized version of that to be perfectly honest. Because it's not a lifetime commitment.
like we're just going to do this thing really quick instead of you. And I now have to. Try to rule together or. Ma make our Alliance work. yeah, I mean, it's similar. What this episode strikes me. Of is that, that nineties trend that happened in a lot of star tracks, at least. And well, it happened in other shows too. I Seinfeld this one that comes up to my mind is like, Ah, let's have an episode about the sex mishap, you know, the silly, sexy situation ha.
Uh, I'm so glad that I don't feel like Babylon five has as many of these as some other shows. Um, but I do hate this episode for that. To just spoil. So a little bit. She runs off from her awkward situation. Insecurity, Natasha. Has offered up the non leader who killed this entire tree. She's. giving him as a peace offering Sheraton and Garibaldi, except that. Also Kara Baldy does a great Londo impression.
Yeah. Yeah. It's definitely a Lando impression that passes.
It's perfect. I love it.
Ivanova talks to Franklin, the stations, leading authority on inappropriate sexual advances.
Oh, This This frustrates me because you know, she's got
Cause he suggests the paper
Yeah. she's got a serious problem and he makes an insensitive joke. then he goes, well, Well, I could, I could make you get sick. So he is like trying to help, like after that, he just had to get his terrible joke out first.
Yeah. This. This miserable discourse does give her an idea. However,
big brain.
Dzhokhar is dealing with injury. And gets himself way too excited for the news. He's about to get. He keeps his a discontent. And disappointment together for a moment. As he gets the news that they're going to help in an unofficial capacity. And that if he tells anyone that he was able to secure help from other races, then they're going to lose that help. So he can't even use, it has like a way to back up his leadership was just clearly being questioned right now. So it's just like, it's.
It saves lives, but at his sacrifice, Of being able to leverage it or do anything. Or like, it is just, he gets this level of help. If he pushes for any more, he's going to lose it. If he tells anyone about it, he's going to lose it. But he needs it even though it's not what he wanted.
Yeah, this is a very.
what they really needed to be perfectly
It's not what they really needed is what the only what they can get. It's very important help, but there are other layers that would have been important that he's being denied.
Yeah. And Dre is just acts the hell out of this laugh, cry. he walks into the hallway, um, there's actually a quote from him. In the season guidebook. Where he's all like, This is key is a very evil man for putting his actors through scenes like this.
Yeah.
This was his quote. I'm just like, whoa.
And it's very heavy. He gets the hardest character in that way. I think. Well, you know, you can make arguments in any direction, but. At this moment, it's definitely the hardest character. But speaking of characters with hard jobs in her quarters. Ivanova Trixie ambassador into thinking that they have had sex. And this is the worst scene of all Babylon five, and I will be taking no questions. Thank you very much.
Oh, we, we got to talk about her hair in its
you've.
out nineties
You can talk about it. It's fine. But I still hate it. I love her hair though.
Yeah, her hair is glorious in this scene. It's just like, uh, it's just, it's ridiculous.
they let her have fun. Hair is good.
she does a ridiculous song and dance after tricking the Lumada. Body into having sex human style. Uh, it's faked an orgasm and tells him he was great.
Uh, Uh,
he asked what now, and this is, this is hilarious. This quote is hilarious. Like what now? He's like old style. You rollover and fall asleep. New style. We go out for pizza. Never speak again. That's hilarious. I don't. The rest of the scene. Feel free to be upset about. I understand being upset about it. A hundred percent. Um, But that quote is hilarious. I don't, I don't care. I will say if this gets rebooted for HBO max though, like if they redo this.
This turns into like a dominatrix thing, right?
Um, good.
it. Like you take this in a weirder, well, not a weirder direction, but maybe a more serious, but also not what he had expected direction.
Oh,
there are some definite human sex stuff that we've probably not at all what he was expecting. That you could totally bring into it. Like some really weird fetish thing that she's just doing to make him think human sex is disgusting.
She could just tie him up and leave him.
right.
Yeah, no. I could, I could totally see that. Yeah. That's definitely the HBO version though. Right? Not the CW.
Yeah, just flog them for three hours. Good times.
shades of Babylon five.
So. Um, so I know we made that 50 shades joke last episode. I'm going to go ahead and officially throw out there that. There's no way we can do this. Because there are two other Babylon five podcasts that recently got started. One is only on like their second or third episode right now. And it's the gray 17 podcast. And then there's also the gray sector podcast. I have not listened to either of these podcasts, just full disclosure. I recently learned of their existence.
I've not had any time because I'm still doing my kitchen. Renno. so I've not listened to either of these. but I think it's, there's.
obviously, this idea is
I they've, they've got gray in their title. So, you know, 50 shades of gray sector or gray, 50 shades, whatever you want to do, like.
Go with
Just. We're just going to let you have that. That's a freebie from us to you. It's a gift we give you Really? It is yours.
Yup.
it.
So we get past all that horribleness that I definitely did not leave the room for.
And then Londo, uh, doesn't make the murder a whole thing.
Yeah. I mean, he's actually super cool. He's there in Sheridan's office. Like begging Londo police. Be cool, man.
Yeah.
cool.
And he's like, the sky was a shit. I told him he was going to fuck up and he did. So, uh, we're going to deport the snark. We're gonna seize all of his belongings and auction them. And the money is going to go to the centaury military. Because the irony is justice enough.
Yeah. just a is. Relatively lenient and very amiable when he leaves. Sheridan catches Ivanova and the officer's club. With a gift from the ambassador, it's probably a sex toy.
It's something. Yeah, I don't, I don't know what that would be. I thought it was a little hat, but you're right. A sex toy makes way more sense.
it though.
I don't. I don't, I'm not gonna that's. That Amy, I don't know what that thing's for.
Uh, Wanda is back alone in the casino near closing time. And Garibaldi shows up and an awful 90 shirt, which is every time Garibaldi or Sheridan were any male on the show, whereas not their uniform. Yeah, just so awful. He thinks Londo for being cool. and Londo says, Hey, if it makes your life easier, then I'm happy. And that's actually a very sweet thing for a genocidal person to say,
Yeah.
Uh, so the Bart, I don't know if you caught this, but the bartender sits down a definitely, probably not chemically inoffensive drink. Which is probably Wanda's. You think so?
hundred percent. That's a Shirley
No. You look at, look at Garibaldi. His face is he's deciding whether or not to drink this drink.
No, he smiles. He knows. He knows that as a chemically inoffensive Drake. Hundred percent. That's a Shirley temple. Like you look at it, it's the right color. It's just that diluted grenadine red. It's got the cherry in it, the whole deal it's served exactly. Like how you'd serve a Shirley temple. I looked at that drink with my bartending days in mind and I was like, oh, he got a Shirley temple. That's cute. I think he's humored that a Shirley temple was ordered for him instead of a water.
Is what I think it is to be perfectly honest. That's how I read that scene.
Oh, I read it as he's like, he spends a long time looking at this drink. Like he's deciding if he's going to drink it or not. And then
I think he's deciding if he's going to keep company with Londo more than the drink.
Okay. So you think Londo did give him a chemically inoffensive drink?
Yes.
it differently. Huh?
I am convinced. A hundred percent, that that is a non alcoholic beverage. Londa would not. Risk. Losing his literal only friend. Over subspecialist in the, he knows that has been such a problem too.
Yeah. Okay. So his, his, like, Look on his face is him deciding whether or not he could be friends with this person who is probably a genocidal maniac. Not about an alcoholic drink. Okay. Uh, yes, I'll buy into that. I thought it was, it was alcoholic and he was about to slip down his. off the wagon path.
Nope. No, I'm I, that was a hundred percent of Shirley temple. Like I thought about, I saw that and it was all like, I'm gonna make myself one. Like. Thinking about it. that's fine though. I mean it, I guess it could be either way. but I don't think we get like a Garibaldi alcoholic relapse for a while.
Yeah.
I think that's a plot point in a later season, but.
Yeah. It's I know
I don't comes around for a bit.
when.
Yeah. Anyways. Uh, in something that will probably not agree on at all. Laura. On a scale of Babylon, one to five. How'd you feel about this episode?
I hate the B plot. hate it so much. I didn't like sitting through this B plot when I was a child. And I didn't really understand what was going on there at the end. Like, cause you don't know what sex is really like. but I could feel that it was uncomfortable. And it's only gotten worse with age. For me.
Yeah, I mean, personally, feeling uncomfortable with that scene. Hundred percent.
It's just hard to see. kind of experience. That I've had that, that I know so many other women have had. You know, I know singers who've been literally chased around the piano by a composer or a pianist. played for laughs. It's really hard.
that's fair. A hundred percent. And my read of it is a little different. I see a situation of someone who is put into something uncomfortable like that. And takes ownership of it and turns it back on that person.
I hate the onus being put on us for that.
A hundred percent.
I hate that that was something that I saw as a young girl. That. Hey, you're going to have to think your way out of this box. There's no one to help you. I hate that.
Yeah. No, no, it should not be her job to do it. You know, You're correct. And everything that you've said, you know, we do put in unfair responsibility as a society on women to avoid a sexual assault. That is a very real problem that we have as a culture.
I just feel like the message. Contributed to that. And whether or not he intended it. It's like, well, I got this strong character and she's going to think her way out of it. And it's like, That's not always how it works.
Yeah.
You can be a strong ass person and still not have this experience. This episode is, is below average, Babylon five for me. And it's not anything to do with a plot. You know, I think that's very hard stuff. That we're grappling with, with these NARKN and Centauri. Tara. And I think that Andrea says brilliant. In his acting throughout the whole thing. Uh, the ending of the Lumosity pot kills it for me.
Yeah.
It makes me super uncomfortable. something that. Aye. Want to see, played for laughs in my media. Um,
fair.
And to me that just bumps it below the average. So I would have to give this one, a two out of five. Babylon's.
A hundred percent. I, I feel like. The Lumata stuff was a lot. for sure. Just all of it in general. it is a very cutting criticism of some of the worst aspects of our culture. Uh, which is very difficult to see through and on your face in a way that is very unappetizing on purpose.
Yeah.
And so like how I felt about growth posts. It, it did a good job of making me feel bad at times, for sure. especially with, uh, the message about how we treat our poor or our undesirables. but there's a lot of really good character work for both Alondo and Dzhokhar in this episode. That I do really appreciate. And so I'm going to give it a three out of five for that.
Yeah, it really. Gets that sort of hue. It's weird to say humanization, but a humanization back to Londo. As we see him just speak kind of sad. And pathetic. Dick. he's done horrible monstrous things in the last few episodes, and that's all very fresh. And yet he's just kind of a sad person.
And he needs to be here. So that he can respond how he responds in a couple of episodes. To the heavy stuff that's on its way right now for him. Uh, no pun intended.
looking forward. It seems like there. is a lot of heavy stuff coming up. Can you tell us about the next episode?
Yeah, we've got season two episode 13, hunter prey. In earth, special agent searches the station for a supposedly military criminal, but Sheridan knows better. I'm guessing some more conspiracy theory stuff from him. Uh, cosh, except Sheridan's invitation to share information about their respective cultures.
Yeah. So we get to know more about Kosh, maybe. Question mark. I'm excited.
Yeah. Yeah. I don't remember this episode at all offhand. But. see. Maybe I do, there might be a bit with cash that I'm remembering, but I think that's later.
Yeah, there was a bit that with caution that I was hoping was in this episode, I have gone ahead and watched it. Uh, it was not there yet. So.
Okay.
If we're thinking of the same bit, we both have to wait.
I bet we are. All right. Thank you to Jeremy Siegel. For our lovely theme music, you can find more of his music at Jeremy Siegel. 40 two.bandcamp.com.
And thank you to angry dot time machine for our podcast artwork.
thank you to everyone who has emailed us. And if you'd like to email us, go ahead and shoot us an email at who are you? Be five. At gmail.com and then you can also join our discord where our community is active and making lots of memes.
Yeah.
So many memes.
It's you know, when it's going to be a meme dump when the first one comes through, there's never just one guys.
No, it's.
always more.
That's the best part. Like, I, I almost never catch it while it's happening, but getting to scroll back and see the giant stream of them that has happened. It's always a source of joy in my day.
Indeed. And thank you to you guys for listening. We really appreciate you listening. If you. You feel. So inclined, maybe go rate this on a pod catcher. I don't know if we have any ratings out there anywhere, so
We we've got a handful of five stars on apple podcasts but
Oh, that's cute.
a review
Oh, okay.
Hmm No one has anything to say about it That just like it Honestly there's this worst publicity So it
places to be than that. So,
All right See you next week internet
Bye.