Hello, and welcome to Who Are You? is the Babylon Watchcast hosted by two former strangers, now friends, who've gotten to know each other while re watching a favorite show from their childhood, Babylon 5. I'm Ja'far,
Laura:And I'm Laura.
Xhafer:today we're joined by,
Ryan:Ryan,
Xhafer:hey Ryan, how've you been?
Ryan:Oh, fantastic. I'm so excited to be back here to help you on your crusade.
Xhafer:Our Crusade? to finish crusade, this is the last episode for us.
Laura:crusade, I think.
Xhafer:well, I mean, it's finished at the very least. So, uh, you messaged me, Ryan. You had an idea for a little cold open fun. So do you wanna, you wanna throw us the pitch here?
Ryan:I do. So Crusade was a short lived series and, through its run, made direct connections to Babylon 5, having some of the previous characters and cast members and locations. in it, whether big or small, and in the episode today we even had some, whether it was Lockley or the Brochiri ambassador, and I wanted to, know, out of any character from Babylon 5, big or small, major, recurring, or one off, who would you have liked to have joined the crew? of the Excalibur. Who do you think would have been a great match for Crusade?
Xhafer:I've got two answers. I've got a big answer and a little answer.
Laura:Hmm.
Xhafer:the big answer is Jakar.
Laura:Ah.
Xhafer:So I think Jakar could have driven a lot of story because he's back from his Outer Rim expedition at this point. Per Legend of the Rangers. so we've got that kind of thing going on, so he can be like the guy who knows what's going on. Kind of like Galen when we don't have Galen, but not as mystical about it. I think Jakar is going to be a lot more sensitive. To other worlds and other cultures compared to Gideon who kind of just tramples over that shit whenever it's inconvenient for him Repeatedly, so I think that would offer a fun and interesting perspective on the show And also if you get your car on the crew, you've got a chance for some more interaction with Londo Having the two of them together outside of Crusade might take some story work to make happen. If one of them isn't on the crew, you're not going to get Londo, he's the Emperor. And so when they go to a Centauri world, Londo can be there and we can get some more banter with them. And also, get a real interesting perspective on Londo through Jakar at his darkest stage of his life as he ends the series. That's my big
Laura:really neat.
Xhafer:My little answer, my more auxiliary character that I think would be really interesting is Talia. So we are,
Ryan:version of
Xhafer:well that's the thing is we're post Psycor now because the Telepath Wars happened. so, what version of Talia And what's she doing? I see her kind of installed as Matheson. Or, maybe not a military person, but there is a representative of the Bureau of Telepath Investigations, I think they called it.
Laura:Yeah. Something
Xhafer:Um, mostly I think that there is a cool story somewhere in there, and I want to, I want to hear it. I don't know what I'd do with it exactly, but I think it'd be interesting.
Ryan:I'd like her to be gal pals with Doreena. Just some gals being pals maybe be roommates for an episode. You know, let them bond, but not too much. It's the 90s after all.
Laura:Yeah. No, I think they could spar.
Ryan:Oh yeah, yeah. Who has the huskier voice out of the two of them? Let them go. Let them husk their voices.
Laura:also had kind of one big answer. And it does require a little reworking of Babylon 5 and something that I think we all kind of didn't like about Babylon 5 right at the end. Not Byron.
Ryan:Linear. Linear.
Laura:Lanier. Yeah, I would much rather Lanier be doing this than whatever he's doing. He could bring that like sensitivity that again uh, Gideon lacks when interacting with other alien cultures. He's much more curious about how others behave. And really kind about it, and it'd just be so much more interesting than what they did to him at the end of Babylon 5.
Xhafer:that's a good answer.
Ryan:Linear and uh, Max can bond over being perverts. That'd be nice. Um, being creeps? Lovely.
Xhafer:Yeah.
Laura:other idea I'd had was Jakar, but I was thinking about also, you know, he spent that time with Leta out there and Leta's gone now, right? She's,
Xhafer:think she's dead?
Laura:yeah, she died in the telepath war at this point, I think.
Ryan:Yeah, if Patricia Tolman actually uh, bothered to show up in Crusade, she would have died in that flashback episode that they had. She would have been the one that Matheson was talking to. That was the original idea. And Pat Tolman said no. And you'll often note many times there are scripts where Pat Tolman as leader would have appeared to die and she just mysteriously was like, I'm not available for that one, Joe. Uh, Legend of the Rangers, Lost Tales Crusade just happened all three times to be like not available for that Joe. Sorry. Can't can't make it What's I always wants to kill Lita. He always wants to kill Lita off road home gave him that opportunity and he took it
Xhafer:Yeah.
Laura:Yeah. Well, like Jakar could have some like guilt feelings over that or something, you know, dealing with Matheson and with his like telepath stuff. And we could have some actually like deep plots in this show. We've tried a few times and I think we've done a very bad job.
Ryan:Yes, I have one answer It's the only answer and I've thought about it for years and I think it would tie in beautifully with the themes of the show I think the character would gel really well with a lot of the cast members, specifically Galen, and they're a character from Babylon 5 that disappeared without any real circumstance behind it, which is Brother Theo.
Xhafer:Ooh.
Ryan:love Brother Theo to be a member of the crew, because he is someone that was wanting to travel out and meet different cultures and understand their religions. He's respectful, but also he's an arsehole. Like, he's, he's a, he's, you know, he's a snarky guy. He's an older guy. Him and Galen could have some great back and forths because they're very diametrically opposed, and yet they're also so, so similar. And I think this series truly lacks, from my recollection, because it's been a while since I've fully watched it, It lacks any character that actually is religious. All of the characters in Crusade are agnostic at best, or atheist at most, and in this episode we're going to talk about. Pretty much any discussion about culture and religion is met with all the characters rolling their eyes, and I really wish that What we had in Babylon 5 where we had many different factors of belief whether it was Dylan who was respectful Or you had a Vonnevar who was spiritual in her own way, but she wasn't a true believer But she also was or you had Franklin who was a man of science and a man of faith and this series lacks Really any of that like oddly enough Max Eilerson is the closest you get to a religious character with his background But he's not a believer He's not a believer anymore, but he was at some point. And I think Brother Theo would have been a perfect fit, and I would have loved to have seen him grapple with faith being challenged, because in Babylon 5, we never got to see that from him. We never got to see that. He was just, true in his beliefs. Most we got was with Brother Edward, but imagine if he got to see all of these different cultures die and there's not much left of them. I would love to have seen him share some barbs with, with Gideon and with, you know, Max. That would be fun.
Laura:Yeah, And the, the monastery that they had or the, the, I don't, I don't know my religious terms, but the group that was on Babylon five was like there to do, they were science, serious scientists and researchers and all that. And you could have them as like members of the crew or there are support groups somewhere that brother Theo gets communications back on, Oh, maybe we should try blah, blah, blah. Like. Yeah, he could have replaced the apocalypse box.
Xhafer:Eh heh heh.
Ryan:Never, never replace that. It's one of my favorite things of Crusade. It's one of my unironically favorite. I love the, I love the apocalypse box.
Laura:I was so mad it wasn't the apocalypse box that told us about the Lorkans, or at least we weren't told that, but it could have been the box, right?
Xhafer:maybe it was. Maybe everything was the box, Laura.
Laura:yeah. maybe it was
Xhafer:Nah, Brother Theo, great call. Um, I mean, reaching to that same area with Jakar, that missing spirituality, I think it's interesting that we all call that as the biggest problem with this show. Um,
Ryan:Why is it that, why isn't it there? Because the series is specifically dealing with religious, religious elements throughout it all. And we don't really have anyone who's religious. I mean, Galen, kind of, but even then, not really. Like, why isn't it here? It's so weird that it's, like, none of them are.
Xhafer:Yeah. it's bizarre. It's a big gap. And it's clearly glaring for all of us to come to the same conclusion independently.
Laura:Yeah. I wonder what JMS was going through at this point in his life given up on that
Xhafer:We can just blame TNT. That seems to be the thing to do.
Laura:And he's like no religion none
Xhafer:mm, cut it out. Alright, well, thank you for that prompt, Ryan. That was, that was fun. We should get into our episode here. Uh, We've got Rules of the Game, our final episode of our Crusade coverage.
Laura:have a question Ryan did you pick this episode on your own that you wanted this one, okay I wasn't sure.
Ryan:I, I wanted this one, for a couple of reasons, we'll, we'll pick apart as we go along. There was a couple of others I would have loved to have done, like, The Needs of Earth, I think, is a genuinely great episode, and I listened to your discussion on it, and you guys didn't like it as much as I did, and I would love to debate you about that. Um, but I like this episode a lot too, and it has uh, some, some interesting facets, and some, you know, pros and cons, You know, for Crusade, for me, like, if there's an episode that I can at least chew on a bit, that means something, because there's many, most don't have that. That or any of the Fiona Avery episodes, I would have loved to have discussed as well, but I chose what I chose.
Laura:Yeah. I was curious also, Jaffer, you told me last time this is like tied for one of the lowest rated episodes of Crusade?
Xhafer:When I was looking at, so it was tied not on IMDb, IMDb listed as one of the best episodes of Crusade? actually. But the um, the movie TV scraping service that I use for metadata on my home media server, their rating of it was the worst.
Laura:Really?
Xhafer:and I can't explain that discrepancy. Um, I don't know where these ratings come from except users and why it would be one on one and different on the other. Besides, I'm guessing a low sample size makes it easier to impact. It's hard to say. I mean, that said, they were within a full point out of ten within each other. Cause I think it was a 5 4 on mine and a like 6 4, maybe a 6 6 on IMDB, if memory serves, without having it open in front of me. So it's not like there's a big window here. Generally, Crusade episodes are rated higher where I'm getting my stuff from. They're almost all 7s. So I'm guessing it's small sample size there. Someone really likes the show and just put it all 10s.
Laura:Yeah.
Xhafer:lumped into a Babylon 5 collection and someone just rated it 5 stars and called it good. Yeah.
Ryan:that's who it was
Xhafer:user jms4eva.
Laura:Yeah, no, I did not think this was the worst, so I was very confused.
Xhafer:this was, this is a much better episode than the last one we watched for sure. And I think also, empirically, the one I've taken the most amount of notes on from a number of pages standpoint,
Laura:Wow.
Xhafer:hit four pages of notes on this one. I think I've been averaging two on an episode of Crusade and five for an episode of Babylon 5. So, yeah.
Laura:Yeah. Okay, we better get into it
Xhafer:Yeah. so we open uh, Dr. Chambers and Max walking around Babylon 5 casually dropping. It's been open for a decade now.
Laura:Yeah.
Xhafer:they discuss how some things should be left in the past when they run into Max's ex wife, Cynthia. There's a couple things here that I really like. Um, It's almost like JMS is doing this scene at the audience, to me. it's, like, some things are better left in the past, guys. I know I can't do a Babylon 5 spinoff without going to Babylon 5, but please don't make me do more Babylon 5. Is really the vibe that I get from this.
Ryan:It's also to TNT. Hey, TNT, it's dead. We can move on. Like, I, I like Babylon 5 too, but it's, it's You know, things need to go to bed now. Chasey Scoggins doesn't need to be in the opening credits. It's okay. We can, we can survive. But uh, poor JMS. He won't ever have this. sentiment again while writing in The Babylon 5 universe. No, we must always have V5 from this point on.
Laura:the set is so great. Like the set is just so much more interesting to me than the Excalibur has been so far. Mm
Xhafer:Yeah, it's, I mean, they're very close to the original Babylon 5 hallways. They're better lit. Yeah. was my only note of the difference. The Zocalo looks pretty close when they're walking around. They get on the bridge to share it in speech and stuff. Like, the sets they do a really good job with. There's only a couple that feel kind of weirdly out of place, not Babylon 5 y. but for the most part, everything felt like the station, which I really
Ryan:Oh, yeah. The director for this episode, if I'm remembering correctly, was Jesus Trevino, who was a mainstay on B5, and, you know, he knows how to shoot these sets uh, he knows this environment well, and so it definitely did have like a, oh, we're back home, oh, we're back, we're back to where we want to be, and then there's no Excalibur in this episode, right? We never cut, we're never inside of Excalibur in this episode,
Xhafer:I don't think,
Laura:I think you're
Xhafer:don't remember anything. If it is, it's so quick that it doesn't matter.
Laura:Yeah, we see it outside the station a couple of times, I think, but I don't think we ever go. No, we're in Max's office at the very end,
Ryan:At the very end, okay. I take it back.
Laura:but it's not like the bridge or anything.
Ryan:no.
Xhafer:Enough where you can tell the difference. Which I appreciate. Gideon argues with the Berkiri ambassador, and honestly, like, I'm siding with the Berkiri here? Uh, Gideon's just being an asshole. It's just like, oh, well, we signed these treaties, so we're going to the world. It's not like, This isn't a Berkiri world, you didn't sign a treaty, bro. Like, you have to just talk we're not even saying no. We're saying you just have to talk to these aliens and get the approval from them to go to their world. And he's being super unreasonable about it, in my opinion. Yeah.
Ryan:I I got it. I understood his frustration. Like, that's the thing. It's from a source of, you can trace where he's coming from, but he's he's very angered by the bureaucracy of it all. So, like, he, like, on paper, this world is in the Bakiri's rule, but Gideon doesn't understand, like, commonwealth. And, you know, provinces and stuff, like, what he understands is, like, You guys rule this place, so you can let me in, we are an alliance. These guys are in the alliance, why can't I come in? And it's like, oh, cultural values? Oh god, that again? We've seen Gideon throughout the series. Struggle with people's cultural values getting in the way of the mission. Which is like an interesting recurring trait to have. Especially when you contrast it to, say, Sinclair. Who was all about like, let's embrace all of the people's different cultural stuff. Like, that's the glue that holds us all together. While Gideon sees it, as something that's slowing down the job to save the human race. And the Procury guy just looks him in the eyes and said, Well, humanity will die then. Oh well, bye. Bye bye.
Xhafer:You're not even the first race we've seen wiped out from a plague in the last five years. Like, get over yourself. Mm hmm.
Ryan:And again, great return of that actor who always played the Brachyre ambassador in Babylon 5. He was great to see him again. I popped, I was like, oh this little weasel, great to see him again.
Laura:Yeah, Yeah. Yeah. there's a lot of good, good stuff from the bit part players in this episode, I think.
Xhafer:We go to our terrible, terrible theme for the last time. Thank fuck. I'm so glad I don't have to listen to this anymore. Uh, Eh,
Ryan:I've, I've softened on Evan Chen's music quite a lot. I think from Cold, Cold Arms is the most outrageous his music ever was. And in Crusade it's like, He took a Xanax, and it was like really low in comparison, and that's what I hate about the opening theme, is when people say Evan Chen's music is aggressive, or over the top, or intrusive, I think Cold Arms is where that really comes in, but you listen to the opening credits of this, this show, and it's so sleepy. It's just so non existent and
Xhafer:That's my
Ryan:I actually enjoy Evan Chen's music in this episode, but the opening credits music, I'm just like, what's, what's the mood? What am I supposed to get from this? At least with Cold Arms, I'm like, Yeah, there's rhythmic drumming. I got something to, like, react to. The opening credits You're not reacting other than to, you know, the voiceover, which is doing all the legwork.
Laura:yeah, it's a lot of work to and I don't think it can carry above the sleepiness like Gary Cole's doing his best But hmm.
Ryan:Gary Cole and, um, Woodward. Peter Woodward. But none of them are all alone in the night. 205, 000 tons of spinning metal all alone in the night. Oh, Michael O'Hare, we miss your voiceover, sir. When you told us it was a dangerous place, I believed you. But in this one, it's like, I'm Matthew Gideon. You sure are, Gary.
Xhafer:heh. After Thiem luckily has hashed out some of this for Gideon, they agree to have dinner since all of their other plans kind of have to wait now. Cynthia needs money for Max. Presumably a lot of money? I don't know the exchange rate on 2267 credits to USD, but it seems like, it seems like a lot of money to me. By the way, everyone's kind of balking when they say the amount.
Laura:Yeah, this isn't a hundred thousand pesos We're looking for like this is something
Ryan:Credits has always been a weird thing to pin down how much it is. Like, 50 credits a week was treated as, like, an extravagance of, like, Oh, they're paying you 50 extra credits to be a Nazi? Oh, that's, that, wow! But then, also Sheridan. They want me to pay 30 extra credits for my, for my quarters? Screw the establishment, that's too much! We don't know how much credits have ever been. We've never understood. Like, I think in season one, Jakar had to pay like 50, 000 credits to Londo within 24 hours and he was like, I can't get that kind of money. Oh my god, that's a lot of money. So it's always been whatever. I'm sure JMS has said on a forum somewhere, but like within this within all of the series, we've never known if credits, how much a credit is to our real world
Xhafer:I mean, it works like hyperspace. It's dictated by the needs of the plot much more than any actual mathematical standard.
Laura:right and with this we drive at home that a hundred thousand credits is a lot because Cynthia took out A 50, 000 credit loan from this loan shark, and it was a hundred percent interest in six months. So it's given us like, you know, this, this atrocious user as interest. And also we kind of have time. Okay. She's, she's had six months if she owes the hundred thousand. So she got this loan because her business went belly up because of the plague. So we've got a kind of a point in time reference. It's been at least six months since earth got plagued.
Ryan:I loved that. I loved her going into all of the reasonings for why her livelihood has been impacted, and the top down scale of how the plague impacts someone like her, and now imagine how that is going around for so many other people, because that's always been one of my biggest critiques of Crusade is We really don't have a frame of reference for how impactful this plague is because we are on the outside of it and none of the characters really have, other than Sarah Chambers, like anyone back home that they're really struggling and worrying about. And so I like this, this like, typical Babylon 5 JMS hyper specific detailing of like, oh, this is how. A person would get impacted by the plague even though they're not on earth And that's, that's interesting, like, this is the stuff I love about JMS's writing.
Xhafer:For sure.
Laura:I think crusade is also going to suffer a little bit now from being watched in the now times by us, because we've now seen all of the economic effects of a worldwide plague.
Xhafer:Yeah.
Laura:And uh, we all have a very vivid picture of it. And this was actually a really good, it's like, yeah, that's exactly how that works. That's like why the United States did a bunch of, you know, paid payroll protection loans and stuff
Xhafer:Yeah.
Laura:It all makes sense.
Xhafer:Yeah, very uh, very prophetic again. Good job, I guess, JMS.
Laura:Yeah.
Xhafer:A little too prophetic most of the time. Max agrees to pay the principal out of principle, but not the interest. I'm so proud of that. Gideon is still indignant about not respecting other worlds sovereignty. Rich coming from an American, I know. Backdoor talk on the second date. Seems a bit forward though, Gideon. Didn't appreciate the tone he took there.
Laura:I'm also really disappointed that their date is not in fresh air. Anybody else?
Xhafer:They couldn't get that set. It was hallways or fresh air, Laura. Take your pick. Right.
Laura:I'm
Ryan:have been a maitre d trying to offer them a coffee with a little something special in it, if you know what I mean. You know, a little, a little something uh, the special coffee for sir. I, look, Lockley has never once in a day in her life gone into a fancy restaurant. that woman's never eaten at a fancy restaurant in her fucking life. You're kidding yourself if she's ever gone to fresh air. She's eating in the mess hall, she's grabbing, she's grabbing the whole jar of sugar and taking it with her. She's, she's not allowed to do that out of the fresh air. They're like, Yeah, yeah, yeah, you're a captain and all, but you can't just walk into the kitchen and take all of our pancakes. And she, she can, in the mess hall, because who's gonna, who's gonna stop her? Corwin?
Xhafer:No, if Lockley, as a character, were transplanted to Earth modern day, she would live inside a Denny's.
Ryan:Yeah, no, I, I actually liked their banter back and forth in this scene. I didn't mind the forwardness because, um, from what I recall from their previous interactions, they've, they've been forward. As, as a dynamic. They've been very, you know, proactive in that way, like, never eat anything bigger than your head, you know, the burger thing from one of the previous episodes that he talked to her about, and I, I like their, I like their dynamic. They're both, like, we'll talk about it. more as the episode goes on, but they're both, like, ultra professional freaks. Who, who understand one another.
Xhafer:Yeah.
Laura:I just want better for my girl Lockley. He's so mansplaining in here and I'm just like, girl,
Ryan:She has an insane, she has an insane line later that I can't wait to discuss.
Laura:But hey, speaking of sets that we got back Eilerson goes to look for the Lone Shark goon in the Dark Star.
Xhafer:Babylon 5's premiere goth industrial club. Great to see that back. Glad they kept the signs. I wonder whose basement those were in for three years.
Laura:Joe's.
Ryan:Douglas Netters. Um, I like the music in this scene. I thought Evan Chen did a really good like, sleazy, strip joint kind of dancey, erotic feel here. I actually liked it. I thought it matched the mood very well.
Laura:Yeah, I actually didn't notice it, which means it wasn't intrusive, so he must have done well.
Xhafer:Max is here to talk to the debtor to clear Cynthia's debt, but it doesn't go according to his plan. He's hoping he can just throw 50, 000 at this guy and get him to fuck off, and that is not what happens. There's lots of
Ryan:Please, please, please name the debtor. Come on, do you
Xhafer:I did not write his name down. Elfmula.
Ryan:loves gangsters with the weirdest names ever, you know, Trace, you remember Trace the gangster from season 5? Or, you know, what was it uh, uh, jinx? No, no, um, Deuce, you remember Deuce? Played by William Sanderson? Like, these gangsters always have these freaky names. Oh, and Rolf Mueller, watch out everyone, it's Rolf Mueller.
Laura:Yes. So intimidated.
Xhafer:after this, the Larkins meet with Lachlene Gideon and a real preachy. We get the gist. Basically, their xenophobic religion makes it a no go for the Excalibur to roll up on the planet.
Laura:I love these guys. They are so extra. Everything they say is just this great, take on the line. And every time they say something about the Most Holy, they like, vogue a little bit. I love it.
Xhafer:It's a lot of fun. These two, these two fuckin weirdos. I love these
Laura:Yeah. So
Ryan:You noted down, you noted down who one of them was played by?
Laura:I did not. You're gonna tell me
Xhafer:I've
Ryan:Tim Choate, a. k. a.
Xhafer:Oh, you
Ryan:was the aide, was the attache, was the, like, little slimy one that was like, Why are we doing this? It's like, Because this is what we do! So that was Tim Choate, coming back to Babylon 5 in ano oh, the universe in another role. Isn't that
Xhafer:fun. Now that you say that, I remember his name in the credits, in the beginning, and going, Oh, Tim Schoat! Yay! And then completely forgetting he's in this 30 seconds later.
Ryan:hmm.
Laura:That just explains why I love them so much.
Ryan:Yeah, I found their whole concept interesting though. I found it like an interesting thing and it's a recurring thing in Crusade that we keep every now and then bumping into these isolationists xenophobic races that are all about looking after themselves and how that ties back into the moral quandary of Excalibur's mission and like the balancing act that Gideon has to ride in which we've seen him many many times over have to Wonder if he is becoming the things that he's encountering, like, Oh, I'm looking out for the, you know, the needs of Earth. I'm looking out for us, and I'm willing to break any rules to do so and yet I will balk at societies that are myself to the extreme in a lot of ways. And these ones are using religious stuff, but they are also, like, People who went to an alien planet that wasn't theirs. found all of this technology and civilization that has long gone and been dead, just like how the Excalibur is going to go through and grave rob, and decided that this is, this is us. We are worthy of this. We deserve this. And I think it's like an interesting kind of heightening of what the entire premise is dealing with, with, with Crusade. Because the thing about Crusade is, yeah, we're watching people try and solve a plague, but also how much. of it is them just grave robbing. Or, you know, barging into cultures and just taking what they need and running off. And that's, that's like one of the brilliant things about this series that JMS did have his finger on the pulse on, but I just wish we had more of it for the time being. But I, I like how it's used here, and I have a fun fact. So, JMS loves this idea about this race coming in and advancing themselves via the stolen technology, because that was going to be the reveal. Of what the bad guys were in Legend of the Rangers. The, the, what were they? The Hand, or whatever. And if that series went to air, that was gonna be the big twist was they're not actually an ancient alien race. They're just some assholes who found ancient technology and pretended that they're ancient and alien. And he likes that idea. He likes this Scooby Doo idea. Mm
Laura:Yeah.
Xhafer:Rip the mask off. Yeah no, I, I do really like these aliens. I like the culture. I like the setup. Um, I don't like the twist with them at the end. We'll, we'll get to that when we get there, but I think that was a big letdown. Um, all right. So after this Cynthia's cat gets grabbed under
Laura:Yeah. Poor Mr. Kitty.
Xhafer:Mr. Kitten is something a sociopath would name their cat.
Laura:I'm pretty sure, based on the dedication at the end, that JMS named his cat Mr. Kitty.
Xhafer:Yeah, it's a, that's an absurd name for a cat. Mr. Kitten.
Ryan:Got a whole chapter in his autobiography, that cat, I'm pretty
Xhafer:I need to read it still, but
Ryan:We don't have time, well, we'll talk about it as we go on, but, the whole history of JMS and that cat is actually one of the most heartfelt parts of his autobiography, and tragic, so, oh boy.
Xhafer:Ugh,
Laura:Oh. man. I, I hope that the picture at the end of Mr. Kitty was really Mr. Kitty, right?
Ryan:I'm pretty sure it was, yeah.
Laura:Yeah. What a great cat.
Xhafer:Lockley tells Gideon that Sheridan is getting involved here to help with the Lorkans, but it's going to take a little bit of time, so the Excalibur is going to be at port for a few days. Gideon tries to get Lockley out to dinner, but it turns into an argument about being amongst the common folk.
Laura:This is where I was pretty mad. This was the mansplaining, like, oh, this is how you should be, let's go do this thing, and then she does, like, hand him his ass
Xhafer:Yeah, well I think the
Laura:fuck off, stop telling me how and who to be, you fuckin idiot.
Xhafer:the only reason she allows this to happen is because she knows she's gonna hand him his ass immediately.
Laura:Yeah.
Xhafer:I think Lockley would have shut this down very quickly otherwise. But like, third space has happened at this point, right?
Ryan:yeah, and River of Souls and stuff, like, yeah, we've had all
Xhafer:So, so we've had hollow brothel Lockley. On the station at this point.
Laura:Mm.
Xhafer:it's just like, wouldn't that alone negate I mean, Gideon wouldn't know about that, but I feel like that alone negates his point. Let alone it actually not being true, and luckily just being correct and the best.
Ryan:But that's why it works for us as an audience if we are followers of Babylon 5. We know Lockley we know that she would be recognised, that she is someone who goes out of her way to mingle with the populace of Babylon 5. She's very hands on. I actually did like the back and forth. Conversation though about how they're both people of military power and yet they think oh no We're just you know, we're just you know, normal people we can just you know, people will recognize it won't be it'll be fine You know in this whole discussion about like do you understand the common folk? You're out there in your spaceship flying around and then he's like, well do you understand the common folk because you're in this isolated bubble where you get to see the the quote unquote best of the best of these alien representatives as you talk to their ambassadors, but I actually go to their planets and I see the dark underbellies, I see the societal problems and I like at the end of this episode, we kind of get the like a middle ground of like how both of them experience the best. and worst parts of other societies, but still don't really understand them.
Xhafer:Mm hmm.
Laura:Ultimately, they're going down to, like, down below, right? That's what it looked like we were trying to do. Gonna do some plainclothes stuff while the Lorkhans keep following them with their spy cam, because apparently security has not gotten any better, thanks a lot, Zack
Xhafer:Yeah. They need to protect their sanctity from colonialism, so they're gonna kill these fucks. Like, like, that will stop anything, but here we are. Chambers goes to Cynthia to hang out and get some dirt on Max, which is fun. As Max preps his Nerf brand disc launcher. Lockly runs Gideon to her usual Sandow spot for an easy hundred credits. Just making Gideon look so dumb.
Laura:Yeah. She's, she's got that need for the Arby's again, anyway, you know?
Xhafer:we go back to that drossy roast beef vendor.
Laura:Uh
Ryan:Yeah, we actually get to see it, we actually get to see it, like where she goes and again, beautiful payoff to What we have talked about many times over, especially on the discord, of just this weird running Joke, that Lockley eats the most fucking disgusting, absurd food ever, like in her first episode, she's all, I'm business, I'm professional, I'm better than Ivanova, I'm here to run the station, I'm a normal person, cut to her, in the first episode, cut to her eating spicy ribs while chugging milk and doing paperwork out in the open, that's like in the first episode. To then eventually the show's like, Oh, you love eating big, sloppy alien burgers. And she's like, Yeah. I do, baby. I love eating big, sloppy alien burgers. I'm, I'm a, I'm a person of the people. I love just eating garbage. I, I wish she had her, her crazy straw in this one too, where she had like a big Coke or whatever. I love that they get Tracy Scoggins, who's, you know, really, like, attractive and she was a bodybuilder and all of this stuff, like, she was real fit, workness, you know, fitness exercise freak. And her character is like, she will just pour tons of sugar on everything. She's just gonna eat the most foul looking things in the show and we'll rarely comment on it. Like, if you go back to season five of B5, Pretty much most episodes with her will have some weird detail of her eating something just bizarre. And I love it. And I love that Crusade embraced it. They're like, no, we love this about Lockley, that she's all business, but she's a, she's a weird person.
Xhafer:I know we love Lise, but we also love Lockley.
Laura:Yeah.
Xhafer:percent. Yep, for sure. What a queen. She just fucking destroys Gideon in this scene, and I'm here for every fucking second of it.
Laura:Me too. I do enjoy that.
Xhafer:Max hires some drossy while Lockley takes Gideon to her private place. Is it just me, or is this where the assassin was hiding in the pilot?
Laura:Mm.
Xhafer:got the, like, weird blind thing that we saw in that weird hallway when he was trying to kill Sinclair. We've got the, like, pedestal thing. Like, I think this is, I don't know if it's meant to be this exact spot, but it feels a lot like that scene in the pilot to me.
Laura:what a nice symmetry.
Ryan:They had industrial fans, so they brought those back. This is my favorite scene in the episode. I really like this scene. I'm a big fan of when JMS writes romantic scenes, I guess. scenes. I think he has a, a real understanding of mature adult relationships, warts and all, wrinkles and all, just little eccentricities. I, I think when he stops and takes a moment to let just characters, reflect on things and be quiet because this episode is a lot of running around a lot of quips a lot of jokes a lot of action a lot of This and this scene will get interrupted by a bunch of bullshit um I like when it's just them sitting there quietly getting to know each other and she's eating a burger and you get This whole sentiment about how they're people who just have to come up with excuses to do stuff because they can't be alone in their thoughts. And I like that it beautifully captures why Gideon and Lockley would work as a couple and also not. And I like her whole sentiment of just, that they get to be co conspirators for a little while and Let's just enjoy this moment. These are the things I wish Crusade had more of, which is just characters stopping the plot and just having these moments of connection.
Xhafer:Like, everything is terrible. Like, the human race is on the verge of extinction, like, Earth is effectively going to be a wasteland, everything is in the fucking shitter. And the fact that no one stops to talk about what that means to them in 13 episodes, it's, you're right, it's this kind of stopping moment that we need a lot more of in this show.
Laura:Yeah. I mean, this is traumatic. Even if you are not a human on earth, this is trauma. It is insane that Excalibur does not have like a ship's counselor. Like why do we not have a Deanna Troy talking to people every now and again about what, what this thing is,
Ryan:Yeah, and again, I'm, I'm, you know, this is, part of the thing I'll talk about too, but I'm pro Lockley and Gideon as a relationship. If this series kept going, I don't know how they would have worked Lockley in. But it's actually, I think, one of the best dynamics of the show. I like them together. I like their bickering. I like their brashness. I like that they're both control freaks, but they manage to get through to one another. I think both actors carry the scenes together. I think they have chemistry, but in the most, you know, weird of ways. But I don't know, realistically, how you would have that continue on. in any function other than, like, it's hard enough how they do it in, in this 13 episodes, where it's like, oh, Lockley's Starfury just happens to be lost in space in this moment, like, that was absurd, but I was happy to see them, but Yeah. like, this episode, like, I'm watching and I'm going, Crusade doesn't have any romance, and I actually like that in Babylon 5, I like the romance in B5, as I said, I think it's some of JMS's best writing, Crusade doesn't have the time for it for the most part, and weirdly enough, Lockley, who is tied to being the ruler of Babylon 5, is the vehicle to allow that to happen, but it's like, inherently, how can you have her in the show? How can you have these two in the show?
Xhafer:have to do limited episodes. Here's my pitch. You do a couple limited episodes. You have one where Lockley gets leave and Gideon doesn't, so she's just on the Excalibur for her time off. And is stuck in an Excalibur adventure. And then you have the same. You have Gideon get, like, a week off. And then we'll see Matheson running the ship doing stuff. And we'll cut over to Gideon on Babylon 5 for, like, an assassination on an ambassador plot. Cause Lockley's not off. And it's just a normal episode of Babylon 5 with Gideon. And then we have one where we do a like, Captain's Holiday kind of thing from TNG where they're both on vacation and they go to some vacation planet but they get caught in some other adventure and some bullshit happens. I think that's the only way, and you could do One of each of those in a season, and it would probably not feel particularly forced or a little more organic. But I agree, like, just finding your Starfury in the middle of space is absolutely mind bogglingly insane. The coincidence, like,
Laura:Yeah.
Ryan:Like, that's The tragedy of Crusade, is, what good things there are, are struggling to get out. And or, because of the format, or the network meddling, You can't bring them to fruition. You just can't bring them to fruition. Like, I think this relationship is one of the strongest things of the series, but because of the format, and because of all of these extraneous circumstances, How can you make it happen realistically within the series without having to drastically change things in which us B5 fans would agree with? Like. I don't believe Lockley would quit working at Babylon 5 just to be with him. Never. And I don't believe he would stop doing the mission to be with her. Like, it's one of those things where it's like, and throughout this episode we're gonna have like, little moments where it's like, Oh, that's interesting. You don't get time. There's just not time, and there's just no way that a lot of this could have got to bloom even without the network interference.
Xhafer:like, Pegasus ing and adding a second ship that Lockley is in command of. And then they're just doing, they're going to the same places for some reason, which is also not what would happen. You'd, you'd divvy up and do the things. Like, it's just, there's just no way to make it work. Logistically.
Laura:You could only get away with like sending her. Because Sheridan's like, oh, well, Lockley has dealt with these people before, so let's send her out there, too. You can only do that, like, once or twice.
Ryan:was hard enough to believe that they would let her be the person running security at Mars conference thing, like, what, not Zack? Like, you know, that's insane, but You have to get her in there, you have to get her But here's the thing, we can talk about all this, but here's how the scene goes. They have a nice moment of connection, and then I smell ozone! Oh no, an attack! And now we jump around! And now there's people with red jewels on their head because I've watched Logan's run. And now we're gonna b b blast laser beams, and it's like What nice moment you have is interrupted by a bunch of just garbage. Just plain, jane, boring, 90's schlock action garbage.
Laura:Mm hmm. Yeah. I did like the rhinestone hand, though. That made me laugh really hard.
Xhafer:I call them infinity gems, in my notes.
Laura:yeah. Okay, yeah.
Xhafer:Cynthia tells Chambers about the real Max, but they are interrupted by Crime Guy, who makes a real rapey comment about how to pay off the other 50k.
Laura:Yeah.
Xhafer:had to pause and just get up for a minute and just be all like, That wasn't cool. That was, that was too much TNT. Ugh.
Laura:TNT loves to allude to something. Yeah.
Ryan:I'll Give the, uh, give the actor credit who plays this thug. I, I thought he did a good job playing like, apathetic gangster man. Like, you could, like, he just had this certain aura of just like, I've, you know I'm a professional criminal, right? Like, you can't intimidate me. What are you? You're some fucking yuppie and you're gonna come in here and tell me oh, I've got principles. Oh fuck Get out of here, you know, and he and he sells this actor sells the goofiness of he kidnapped this woman's cats That's so stupid. But yet when we actually spend time with this guy and even in this scene There's genuine moments of just like, he really doesn't care and it's, it's unsettled, unsettling. And again, it's not the greatest performance ever, but I think he brings something to a very nothing role.
Laura:Yeah. Yeah. And in the previous episode, I had told Ja'far that I thought the most unbelievable part of the description of this episode was that Max Eilerson had found someone to marry him. She explains herself that Max was like the really smart, but mouthy kid, and So I guess we've all known each other since we were children. Cause even the goon is like talking like he knew Eilerson when they were younger, or at least he knows all about his childhood apparently.
Ryan:He can just read him. He can read who Max is just because he's so obvious. Um, Her description of Max is just uh, JMS.
Laura:I kind of
Ryan:just JMS. It's how he describes himself and his life. It's just JMS. It's just Max is the JMS stand in for the series. Max and Galen are the two J voices of JMS in this show. And I think that's so peculiar. Um, I'm a Max fan, by the way, shock of shocks. I'm, I'm pro Max. I'm, I'm, I'm HBO Max, you know, I like Max as a character and we'll talk about it as we get more Max material, but I, I like this description of him of just like, he was a prodigy, he was academically wise, but he had, he had no social understanding. He had no friends. He was always someone. proving themselves and in competition and so. His trajectory of being a corporate yuppie makes, makes complete sense. Makes complete sense, like, this is someone who was almost bred to be this way, and the fact that she lost this relationship because he became a good company man, I, I felt that was a really good sentiment, and, Again, not to keep psychoanalyzing JMS, but, y'know, Him and his wife's relationship, especially during this time in life, is interesting. It's very interesting.
Laura:Well, I'll spoil something for you for an episode you haven't gotten to listen to yet, Ryan, but I kicked Max Eilerson out of the reboot. I do not like Max Eilerson.
Ryan:Don't worry, he'll be the star of the reboot.
Laura:Mm. I just. I, you know, I've dealt with this man kind of, you know, in, in different points of life and I don't got time for that. I don't. And I think that her deal was, you know, she probably thought I can fix him and, you know, you can't honey, don't waste your time. You got enough life to live on your own. So.
Ryan:No, only a magical technomage, or a thief alien, or a guy who speaks to a mysterious box can fix this guy.
Laura:Uh Huh.
Xhafer:So,
Laura:apocalypse box could fix anything.
Xhafer:chambers uh, punches. This guy he runs out Gideon and Lockley are on the run. After Ardettir gets punched by Chambers, he gets dropped by the Drazi. And the Larkins get sneak attacked by Gideon after Lockley distracts them. Gideon uses a big pipe to subdue the Larkins. Larkins. Yeah, yeah, Larkins. Like the uh, like the guy from uh, H. John Benjamin. Yeah,
Ryan:it bothers me. It does bother me that these people are willing to kill Lockley. The justification that the script comes up with for why they will want to kill Lockley is like, it's piss, it's poor. It's, it's super poor. It's so weak and I, I, I know I'm a Lockley fan and I, I love Tracy Scoggin's performance and I think this is a case in which because she's such a good actress. It makes the script even worse, because when she turns around and looks at these two bizarre aliens, and, like, has a moment of connection with them, and like, I believed it so much that it made me retroactively go back to the story and make it even more damning, of like, no way would these aliens Fucking kill this woman. There's no way. There's no way in my mind with what we're given and Tracey Scoggins when she's, you know Luring them to the trap. She's so convincing. She is the commanding officer of Babylon 5. She's the diplomat She's the one that's probably met with these people day to day to day to day I just can't believe that they would do this The script is just having to bend over backwards to find reasons for them to be The traditional alien bad guys who run around and shoot lasers because we've got to kill Gideon. Oh, and Lockley's there too. So, oh, you know, two birds, one stone. It just, I'm sorry, JMS. It just does not work
Xhafer:it doesn't work so much, it makes me disbelieve it. Like, I don't think that they were actually selling technology and that this was all cover. They were just trying to save their own asses. I think that their religious zealotry and fear of the other got so much that they were willing to kill both of them to prevent anyone from disrupting the sanctity of their world. And that their premier, whoever shows up at the end, I don't remember if we get a title for him to explain away what these guys were doing. Because we learned they're like, the pope of the religion. You know, they say that these guys are like, they're religious leaders that were, you know, the most uncorruptible, were corrupted. And I think really, it's just, they got ahead of themselves, and they bought into their own bullshit, and their own zealotry, and just ran with it. And he makes this excuse to save face. Not because it's actually true.
Ryan:Mmm. Interesting read. And again, If only the episode spent time on what it promised at the beginning. What it promised at the beginning could have been an equivalent of so many great B5 stories. I thought of Believers at the beginning of this episode, in which you have a culture that's so staunch in their religious opinion, and our characters have different views, and they have to lock horns on that, but instead it just becomes They are guys who are going to kill you with a weapon. And that's inherently less interesting, because at the end of this all, what do we gain? What do we gain theologically? What do we gain on an intellectual level? Nothing. We get nothing. Oh, there's some stuff we can talk about at the end in that spin story about like, you know, Oh, you humans are so despicable that we actually want you there. Like that's something but that's also like so minimal. It's so minimal.
Xhafer:After this, we get a shot of the Excalibur Park next to the station. I love this shot. This is such a good shot. It's just, this is the first time I felt like the Excalibur might actually have miles of basketball courts inside of it. Um, it really, really does a lot to show us the actual size of this thing.
Laura:I think this is the first episode that there wasn't some bad CGI that really took me out of
Xhafer:yeah.
Laura:This is actually really good.
Xhafer:Yeah, this scene looked really good. Max and the Debtor discuss what a bitch Max is but the Nerf ring Around his neck, with the thing from Battle Royale, so we get a little, if he comes within ten feet of me, he'll have a hard time getting a head in life.
Laura:Eh, heh, heh,
Xhafer:blow off his head. Yeah. No, nothing, right? Okay, fine. Stonewall me. I see how it is. Heh heh heh,
Ryan:no, I'm sorry. I'm sorry, buddy. I just couldn't join you on that ride.
Xhafer:making a joke straight from Austin Powers is not enough for you. I see how it is.
Ryan:Yeah, baby. Yeah,
Xhafer:He agrees to leave Max and Cynthia alone. But you know who's not alone in this next scene?
Laura:Oh, oh, no!
Ryan:came in and saved everything we need. Evan Chen, he understood the assignment. Transcribed You say his music is inappropriate, this is 100 percent appropriate because I love Lockley and Gideon Shaw, but boy oh, boy, you can feel TNT's grubby little fingers all over this scene. And Evan Chen's like, Yeah, this is just porn. You know what this is.
Xhafer:jazz porn
Ryan:God bless Evan.
Xhafer:the music in this is absurd. They agreed to conserve her real water shower and they get undressed in the shower? It's, it's like, okay guys, um, you know what, I'm done questioning things. And then we get the least subtle shot in TV history. As a vaguely penile rocket enters the station, as the porn music continues to play. I was just laughing my ass off at this. This is just, it's so absurd.
Laura:I was so distracted by the sexy saxophone. I missed the rocket and coming into
Xhafer:this. I had to pause this, I was laughing so much. Grab Beth, show her what had happened. It's so good.
Ryan:I was laughing at the uh, the Jessica Rabbit like silhouette that they had for Lockley in the shower. I was like, oh boy, this is, this is, this is a lot. And hey, Babylon 5 was horny. As well. Like, we can't just blame TNT for this either. Like, this could have been in Babylon 5 as well. Like, we had so many moments of weird sex stuff. You know, pleasure threshold, the list, frictionless sheets, you know, all from all from that was like that was all from the first episode, too. Um, so this isn't, like, truly out of pocket, but also there's just something about it where You just know that this is a desperate last gasp of Crusade, because they're, You, it's like, the whole entire episode is just, Fine, here's Babylon 5, here's Tracey Scoggins, Here's sex, you know, here's, pfft, I don't know, an action scene with uh, Chambers, I guess, you know, She can kick someone, sure, you know, she's a tall lady, she's six foot, She's six foot tall, so let her do a kick. She was in Mortal Kombat Annihilation, let her do some fights.
Laura:She looked great. Yeah. Yeah,
Ryan:Yeah. like, but this episode, like, as much as I like it, you can tell there's like a level of like, okay, this, you want stupid, here you go.
Laura:I guess I went stupid cuz I loved all of it except the sex
Xhafer:Cynthia and Max say goodbye. Another Larkin explains that it wasn't the religious zealotry but greed that caused them to attack the captains. They were stealing and selling tech. We've talked about this. They will allow the Excalibur to come to test their faith against the humans extreme corruption. I do think that's a fun and interesting idea, and I hope it would have had payoff later in the series if they got to keep going. But I doubt it.
Laura:I thought it was pretty funny. I know that like the whole, Oh, those guys were actually the really corrupt ones and they've been so corrupted. Now we need to test everybody else's faith. I know it's just kind of like a whitewash over like this plot is actually not very good. But I thought it was pretty funny, especially because he also vogues about the most holy. So love it
Xhafer:after this Lockley and Gideon talk about their fuckin but they remain married to their work, so while it was fun, it's not gonna work long term. And Gideon's fine with keeping it casual, he's on the same page. And so they go grab dinner.
Laura:Yeah. They're going back to Arby's. Yeah.
Ryan:And maybe some, maybe something else, too, you never
Xhafer:time for dessert. yeah, hint hint wink wink nudge nudge say no more. yeah,
Ryan:phrase from number one. Hey, where's number one? She should have been in this episode, too. Where, where are my friends? Where's Dr. Hobbes? Maybe she has an opinion on the virus. Um, yeah. Again, I liked how this conversation was handled. After all of the absurdity of that sex scene, I like that there was a moment of just, Hey, come here, come here Gideon. I just want to lay down the ground rules of just like, I'm not in for a relationship right now. And the absurdity of her being like, I, you know, I don't usually move this fast. Coming from the woman who married Sheridan. Uh, Yeah, sure Lockley, you really are the one who kind of just runs into relationships without thinking about it first. Yeah, that's definitely not you. That's so not you. That was one of the most like, I don't know if JMS is like being a little bit funny there, or if he genuinely thinks that's Lockley. I took it as funny, I took it as like, This is the woman who, like, thought, didn't think for a second, and then married an idiot, and then was like, oh god, I married an
Xhafer:too, right? They talk about how it was like a swirlwind where they got married instantly. Yeah, Yeah. After this, we cut over to the Excalibur. Max gets a picture of Mr. Kitty from Cynthia. What are the logistics here? Was this a fax? Was this an actual photo that came from FedEx? It's like How the fuck does this arrive to, to Max? I've got logistics
Laura:he gets like mail. It's, it's like there's a person whose job on the Excalibur is to go hand out all the paper mail that they somehow get.
Xhafer:And that's it.
Laura:Great. Fantastic.
Ryan:Don't forget, don't forget the credits is dedicated to the cat, and that it's, you know, real cat, and that is, you know, off chasing, was it star mice or whatever, and it's very sweet. Like, the end of the episode is very nice, and, you know, I'll just say it. This is JMS also finding a way to write a whole episode about how much he loved his cats. And We've talked so much over all of our podcasts about the weird ways JMS uses his series to just vent about whatever or like get things off his chest like Oh, max We'll talk about salt now or whatever it is, you know, and and it's like, okay But this is actually one of the ones I'm like, look I get it If I was in charge of a show and I was running it for like seven years or however long I'd be like, okay I would also want to write an episode about how much I love my dog, say, or like, how much he loves his cat, like, I, you know what, this is one of those endings where I'm just like, JMS. I see you as a person. Like, I see you as a real living, breathing person. You're a dork, you're just like us, you couldn't resist, and I don't blame you.
Laura:Mm hmm. Yeah. I wonder if he chose in the, in his order, you know, we've talked about there's no good order for Crusade to, end crusade in his order on this for Mr. Kitty. That's real nice. I don't think the music that they put over the credits to memorialize Mr. Kitty is very good, but that's fine. Yeah, Max says at the end when he's talking to Cynthia, you know, she, she apologizes for always calling him for help. And he says that in his, in his entire life, he's only loved three things, his work, the cat, and her. And I think, again, this is much, much self insert from a certain writer. Yes.
Ryan:Of course, from Peter David.
Xhafer:Well, that's that. We did it. Our Crusade to Finish Crusade is finished. Thanks for joining us for this last one, Ryan. We don't have an episode of Crusade next week. The next two weeks, we're gonna do Crusade script readings. We're gonna read the Bester episode, and then we're gonna read the season finale. after that, we're gonna do Book Club for the Centauri Trilogy, Lost Tales, and then we're gonna do a entirety of Babylon 5 universe. Retrospective episode. We're gonna take a couple weeks off and then we'll be back with Battlestar Galactica 2004.
Ryan:But what about hypernauts?
Xhafer:You know, I knew you were gonna ask No glue for us. Sorry. The glue will not be loose. Maybe. Maybe if we ever get on that Patreon and set all that up, but until then,
Laura:That's that bonus content that Ryan could pay for.
Xhafer:speaking of which, Ryan, I know you got a Patreon. Tell everyone where they can find Yum. Yum. And you
Ryan:Well, Thank you so much for the, the seamless, seamless transition. Well, I host a podcast with my wife, Rachel, who has never watched an episode of Crusade. We didn't cover Crusade because I just don't like it very much. Um, maybe one day. I have, I have a lot of, opinions on it, but it was a case of just like, ah, I, I, I've done enough B5 for now, but no, we have covered a lot of science fiction television, we have done Star Trek Discovery, we have done all, you know, all the episodes of Babylon 5 and the movies, we've gone through Space Above and. Beyond, which did have an episode all about them receiving physical letters and mail, so. There's a series that actually deals with the idea of if you're in space and how do you get letters. So there's a series that deals with that, and we are going through the expanse. For the first time, we are watching it as newcomers and we are, you know, a good chunk through and we have a Patreon in which people can support the podcast, get episodes early and access to a whole slew of other bonus materials. We give our thoughts on just things we've been, you know, Participating in, watching, engaging, reading, whatever it is, and we have a discord where we talk to people and just have a, have a jolly old time, and yeah! So, we are on all of the internet, basically. YumYumPod or YumYumPodcast, you will find us, yes, even on the dark web.
Xhafer:How do you find things on the dark web?
Ryan:Well, Max Sileson has a, has a data crystal.
Laura:It's behind the alien porn, right?
Ryan:Yeah, yeah, behind it, in it, Yeah.
Xhafer:All right, well, thanks so much for joining us, Ryan. Always a pleasure. Always appreciate your insight and the amount of research that you do that I don't have to.
Ryan:No, no problem. So you give this episode a 10, out of 10,
Xhafer:to,
Laura:Oh yeah, we didn't
Xhafer:rated this episode. We, oh, we almost, can you imagine dropping the ball on the last one?
Laura:I can though, yeah.
Ryan:were just too busy thinking about how Gary Cole has never had a different haircut in his entire career.
Laura:It's true, he's still got the same haircut now. Like, if you Google him.
Xhafer:Okay, well that's gonna live rent free in my brain for a long time. I would give this three out of four main guns firing. I, I did enjoy this episode, this was a lot of fun. I think it, it, the uh, the blunder here is the, I don't think it goes far enough. I think just with one line, here or there, we could have made this episode a little bit better. With just a little bit more explanation for why the aliens are doing what they're doing. Or maybe being a little bit more harsh. And bringing the criticism of Gideon to what they're doing in line, making it just a little bit clearer that's what's going on here. And this probably would have been even higher for me, but as it stands, 3 out of 4 main guns firing.
Laura:Yeah, I'm going to go ahead and give it four because I had a much, much, much better time than the last two episodes we watched, and I could not stop laughing after the episode was over about Lockley and her roast beef sandwich. I just, I had a great time. You know, I, I thought the aliens were over the top with everything they did. It was very funny. So this is, this is what I needed after the last two episodes where I was just very bored the whole time.
Xhafer:Mhmm.
Ryan:Mmm. It depends what you want out of Crusade, isn't it? Because I think you and I want different things out of the series. Like, the last two episodes you covered, were they the Fiona Avery written episodes? Were they, like, the Well of Forever and, and uh, the other ones you wrote with Doreena's people? Um, I like those episodes a lot. Um, Crusades Compromised. no matter what angle you come at it. And so every episode, I have to rate it on like, this weird system of like, do I rate it within the framework of the series, or as an episode on its own? And it's always tough, because as an episode on its own, this is sloppy. It's messy. It's all over the place. It doesn't really have much to say. It completely whiffs a lot of the great intellectual and thought provoking material you could have, and just wastes it on just Bad guys run around with jewels in their hand. I would never recommend this episode to anyone. But in the framework of Crusade, it's goofy and fine, and it's got great character stuff. I love the character stuff. And we didn't talk about it too much within the episode, but I actually liked Max's story. I actually liked humanizing Max and giving him a little bit more, because in my version of Crusade, ones where we had more episodes like the Needs of Earth or the Fiona Avery episodes, where there's a little bit more of a Cynicism, but also melancholy and a little bit of hope there too. Max is the character Crusade would have. I like the idea of Max, I like the performance of Max, as like this heartless corporate stooge who, through the course of the adventures, will offer a counterpoint that many people would offer. Like, one of the things is, why is this ship always taking detours?
Xhafer:Mhmm.
Ryan:Don't you have to focus on the mission and Max is the character that vocalizes that but to a degree that is like Narcissistic and mean but also here's a heart underneath it all and he evolves and changes and like in the course of a series He could have been you know The one of the big characters of like look how much he evolved and changed and I thought this episode did a good job With that where he was sweet, but still a prick like it didn't compromise like, you know sometimes when you see Oh, this guy's a prick, but in this episode, it's a very special episode where we make sure you know he's a good guy because he has a cat. Um, he's still a prick at the same time. so I like the balance. So I give this one a three out of four as well. I think it just, it misses it. I just wish Crusade was more brooding and dark and I wish it was more, like, episodes like the Fiona Avery ones where the characters are like, you know, I'm a gambling man, and I talk to an evil box, and I Or I'm a techno mage who, underneath all of my bravado, I'm lovelorned, and you know, I, I just, you know, I, I, and all of that, and instead you get episodes where it's like, Dr. Chambers, who should be the most important character in the series, by the way,
Xhafer:Mhmm.
Ryan:Um, she's here too! To kick!
Laura:Yeah.
Ryan:To kick! Final trivia fact to end on, I don't know if you've talked about this, but the actress who played Sarah Chambers is really tall. She's like, she's six foot, or six foot one, and that was a problem for the production. Because I don't know if you're aware, but in a lot of productions they don't like women being taller than the men.
Laura:Yeah. I've heard that's a thing.
Ryan:so if you go, back, if you go back and watch Crusade, enjoy how they had to find ways of hiding her height. so that's why so often she's sitting down, or in the back of the set, or crouching, or on the tv screen, or by herself. And it makes her character feel like she's not in the world, she just exists inserted. Isn't that strange? I've never seen a production have to do that before, but Crusade, like with every other weird thing it has, it's a unique snowflake.
Laura:See, Ja'far and I having met in person and had our partners with us, Ja'far knows how much taller I am than my husband.
Ryan:I've seen photos, I've seen photos, and I'm like, are you really tall or is he really short? Um, so if,
Laura:it's a little of both.
Ryan:this show,
Laura:He's not really short. He's very average, but I am very tall.
Xhafer:Yup.
Ryan:You'd be ha you'd have to sit. Sorry, you'd have to crouch. You'd have to be on the TV screen.
Laura:But that's, this is a real thing for me, Ryan. Like I feel a subconscious thing from the world that I need to be smaller. And I hate that. And I hate that they did this to beautiful Marjean Holden. That is so
Xhafer:It's fucked. Just say it's fucked. We're an explicit podcast. Hahahaha
Ryan:It's fucked.
Laura:There's the title.
Xhafer:it. All right. Well, with all that said, we've just got a couple other things. Thanks, Jeremy, for our lovely theme music. You can find more of Jeremy's work at jeremyseagle42. bandcamp. com, and on streaming services as Nuclear Jaguar.
Laura:and thanks to Angry Duck Time Machine on Instagram for our podcast artwork.
Xhafer:Thanks, Aaron, for editing this podcast, and thank you in anticipation for editing the script readings, which is going to be a fucking nightmare.
Laura:We'll, we'll keep it tight, man. We'll keep it tight. I believe in
Xhafer:Can we? We'll find out!
Laura:And thanks, listener, for being here with us. If you want to reach out and share any thoughts on Crusade, I know you've got them uh, you can send an email to whoareyoub5 at gmail. com or join us in our Discord. It's a great, lovely group of people. And Ryan is
Xhafer:yeah, we'd love to hear what Babylon 5 as a whole series means to you for our series recap, so shoot us an email or a discord message with that, and we'll read that when we do that in a month and a half or so.
Ryan:Yeah, and feel free to argue which is worse. Crusade, Legend of the Rangers, or The Lost Tales? There's only one correct answer, and it's mine. Which is The Lost
Xhafer:I I haven't seen Lost Tales in a long time, and I honestly think I'm going to agree with you. I haven't done my rewatch for this yet, but I do believe I'm gonna think it's the worst thing. I was talking about this the other day, it feels like it's just green screen sometimes.
Laura:I remember profound disappointment when it came out in college. That's the only thing I remember about it. I remember Sheridan's in it at one point. And profound disappointment.
Xhafer:Sheridan and Galen.
Laura:Yeah. Apparently I don't remember the Galen part at all.
Ryan:And the Locke and Lockley, and Lockley's there too.
Laura:Cool.
Xhafer:Alright. Well, we'll see you next week, Internet.
Laura:Bye.