Ep 155 / Savoring the Hunt: Wild Game Cooking with Hank Shaw

Welcome to the Whitetail Advantage podcast with. Your host, Brett Bovin. Thank you for tuning in and enjoy the show. Oh, we're going on. Oh, we're going to. Oh, boy. Double fist those bullets. Oh, man, you know it. Yeah, we're not going to do an intro, but I'll at least say this. It's Tuesday, June 3rd. Episode 155 Put your corn in the slot machine. Thank you to all the men and women in the military.

And let's just pull up a chair to electronic campfire and have an awesome story tonight and learn some wild game cooking with our guest tonight. Hank. Hank, thank you for coming on the show, brother. Thanks for having me on. John Squad, what's going on? I don't like being in your spot, Brett. I don't like the spot. You got to move. I don't like it either, but things were moving around and I can't control it now at this point. I'm sorry. Oh, man, you're. You're going to be running the show.

Apparently. You're up there in the top left. I feel weird now. I. I don't like it one bit. Let's try something else here, man. It's not doing that either. Arguing about placements on your. On a screen that no one can see if they're listening. Well, I mean, it means. It means, you know, a lot because, you know, Brett. Brett might get upset. Brett is upset, clearly. I mean, his face is turning red. No, don't do that camera angle. I hate it. See, that just means I should mute Brett either way.

Hank, again, thank you for coming on the show. Yeah, we do a little banter and we get off the rails once in a while, so I apologize. I'm sure you're already regretting coming on. Already, but not yet. Give me five minutes.

Well, brother, can you give a little background about yourself? Sure. I live in the Twin Cities, and I've been. I've been running a wild food website called Hunter, Angler, gardener, Cook since 2007 and been on most of the TV shows. I won a few cooking awards, few writing awards. I've written six cookbooks. One literally just came out three days ago. And I basically have probably killed, cooked, and eaten damn near everything in North America. Smaller than a moose. Very cool. Really cool.

I am closing in on the mythical small game slam. Oh, nice. What exactly is it? I invented it because nobody's ever done it. It's basically to hunt, kill, and eat everything smaller than a pig in North America. And I think there's my got maybe 20 species still to go. But I've. It's been. It's been kind of a fun journey and definitely good for. For some kitchen stories. Now, what is your. Your most memorable one? Easy. So a guy named Brian Call. He's a guy from Utah. He runs a thing called.

I think it's called Gritty Bowman. And so we're in. And we're on the Mexican border in Arivaca in Arizona. And so this guy shoots a coat of mundi with his bow. And coatimundi basically looks like. I don't know if a lemur and a raccoon had a love child. That's a. That's a coati. And there's. They're legal. You can kill one a year in Arizona. So he sticks one with his bow, and I'm sick as a dog, right? So I get up in the next morning, and I'm like, oh, God, I can't hunt. And he's.

He's skinning this thing in the kitchen of the Airbnb, which is hilarious, but. And I'm like, what are you gonna do? Like, I guess you're caping it out for a mountain or something. He's like, yeah, yeah. And then I'm gonna eat the meat. I'm like, well, what are you gonna do? He's like, oh, I'm just gonna throw it on a grill. I'm like, bro, you're gonna kill us all. So let me just. Just. Just step away from the carcass. Let me take care of it.

And I basically braised it until it was tender and then grilled it over mesquite and then made. Basically made tacos out of it. It was damn good. Wow. Nice. I. I've learned that any meat that's questionable is better as a taco and. Also better when you cook the hell out of it. Oh, absolutely. Where's my question go that I always draw a blank on the name of it, but that silver. That, like, in the venison. Silver skin. Huh? Silver skin, yeah. That silver skin.

Yeah. Yeah. So this is my main question I've been dying to ask you. All right, so people, when they say when they eat venison, they're like, it tastes too gamey or tastes too rough. I was always under the impression that it's always coming down to the cook who cooks up the meat and stuff like that, but in my opinion, it's that silver lining, that silver skin right there that's been left on the meat that could cause that effect. Is that true? Not really.

In Fact, silver skin is a good thing to keep on a back strap when you're gonna freeze it because it provides an extra layer of protection against freezer burn. If it's going to be gamey, if it's going to have an off smell to it, there's a lot of reasons that that could happen and none of them are involved with silver skin. I always leave it on and then I will remove it when I cook it.

So. Because a, it's the protection against freezer burn, but it's also, it comes off way easier on a thawed piece of meat than on a fresh piece of meat. It can be a little persnickety with a fresh piece of meat and it's basically peels off on a thawed piece of meat. If you're looking for something, why something is gamey. Typically if you're shooting bucks and rot, that's a good reason. If the deer didn't get cleaned quickly, that's a reason.

If the, if you got mud on it, if it's, if you gut shot it or as they say in the trade, oh, I shot a little far back. Which means you shot like, like, yeah, that can do it. There's a whole bunch of other reasons. Like if you get a post rut buck, they're so stressed and their, their systems are so worn down from the whole rut period that the quality of meat is just not good. So I mean there's a ton of reasons we could get into them if you want, but it's not the silver skin.

Yeah. I'm curious to see what would really cause that, that true gamey feeling of when people try to eat it. Because I, and I'll say this, my, my dad, my grandpa, he doesn't like medicine. I don't know why, he just does. And we made up this acetype deal and the main meat source protein was, was venison. And we surprised him with it and he said he loved it. He said, oh, I always hated venison because it always tastes too gamey.

And that's your main thing of people, why they don't like venison because it tastes too gamey. That's all meat handling. You know, it's, it's not all meat handling, but it's mostly meat handling. You've got a lot of cases I've seen where it's just, you know, have some food safety, you know, ideas guys. Like I've seen people working on meat when it's like 60 degrees out, 70 degrees and it's just like kind of like getting warm.

I've seen people dunk it in water and then the water gets over 40 degrees and then you've essentially made bacteria soup. I've just seen, I've seen hair all over the meat. Just. There's endless horror stories of what can go wrong if you don't have your act together before you actually shoot the deer. I mean, you should have a plan for what you're going to do with the deer before you shoot the deer.

So being a basically a third generation Italian butcher, we learned growing up as kids to get the glands out of the meat. There's six and a deer. That's, that's total. A lot of people make the mistake when they separate the meat. They either cut through the gland and that tarsal gland. Yeah, that's a good point. Yeah. The glands that you got, two in the rumps, two in the front shoulders, two up in the higher neck.

And what happens is it people will take that meat, they cut through that gland, the gland secretes. And you know, let's be honest, your, your, your rumps, all your roasts and everything, you're coming out of the back, you know, out of your rear hindquarters, and it contaminates the meat. And, you know, not tooting my own horn, but when I make venison, people think it's beef. They, they can't believe it doesn't have any gamey taste. But it's just like you said, Hank, it's all in the preparation.

It's how you handle it from the time it hits the ground that's, you know, gutting and then, you know, getting it hung up and, you know, keeping the temperatures right for that deer. A lot of people think they can dry age deer in their garage. That's incorrect because you need a constant, you know, temperature that's set in a dry condition. Apple coolers are good for that, and regular refrigerated systems are good for that.

But to sit there and say, yeah, I dry aged that meat in my garage and the temperatures went from, you know, 20s at night and into the mid, you know, 40s and maybe even the 50s and early season. Geez, you know, it's, it's a scary thing. And I mean, you can get away. With that for 48 hours, but.

Yeah, I know, I know, but it's so freaking risky, man, when, you know, you sit there and you think about what people are and you know, I go to game dinners and I'm like, oh, Lord, please protect me, because I don't know how they Handle it and what they're making, but hopefully they cooked it good enough. So. But yeah, just a, just a little interesting thing we learned as kids, you know, not to, not to cut those glands. Get those glands out of the meat.

You can cook a whole hind leg of a deer though, and you'll be fine because then when you get into it, you just remove that gland when you, when you kind of get to it. It's breaking the gland when it's raw. Exactly. Yep. Yeah. No, you're fine with it as long as you don't disturb it. Like, you know, if you make it secrete, then it's, then it's a problem. The tarsals are the worst. Oh yeah, big time.

What would you say is your favorite venison recipe? I mean, I wrote an entire book on cooking venison. There's like 150 recipes in it. So it's like which is your favorite child. And just like most parents, your favorite child kind of changes depending on how the child's are acting. My favorite recipe kind of depends on the season and really what we're doing. Like, I can tell you though that I prefer recipes from the front of the deer rather than the back of the deer.

So I would much rather play with shanks shoulders neck. Deer tongue is pretty good. Deer heart is really good. The thing about backstraps and hind leg roast is they're fine, but they bore me. You know, I'm a professional cook. So it's like, okay, here, here's another venison backstrap. Great, here you go. And I made a nice sauce for it. Everyone's gonna enjoy it. I'm bored to tears. Where you can make something really interesting and special out of the front of the deer.

Because of all that connective tissue which you use to your advantage by cooking it really slow and low and, and, and covered like a braise or you can smoke it. And so one of the things I do a lot with the front end of a deer or a moose or, or a caribou or whatever is to smoke it for a couple, two, three hours as a first step to get a little bit of extra flavor on it and then braise it. So what you have that with that two step is you get it. It's super tender.

It makes the best barbacoa you've ever eaten in their life. And that's. Those are the things that excite me when I'm cooking deer meat. So I would never think to cook up the tongue. Oh yeah, deer tongue. Well, I mean, Elk tongues and bison tongues and moose tongues are better because they're bigger. But you can go to a deer camp, right? And like, hey, man, you guys want your tongues? And everyone looks at you like you have three heads. I'm like, don't worry about it. I got it.

And then they're awesome. They're just as good as a. As a beef tongue. They're just smaller, that's all. So now how to pick one of them up? Well, first, you got to get it out of the deer. And if you're familiar with the Columbia necktie, it's that. So you literally take it from underneath the chin, and you kind of yank it down underneath, and then you remove it. There's a couple. Two bones that attach it at the base, and you can either yank real hard if you want, or you can just cut around it.

You get those two bones out, and then you braise. You always braise the tongue because it has a skin on it. And this is just like a beef tongue. It's smaller. So obviously you wash it, but then you would. You would cook it just, like, in salt water. And it's ready when you take, like, a paring knife or, you know, any skinny, just sharp, thin knife. Like, I use my flexible blade boning knife to do this because it's thin and sharp. If you stick the tongue and the blade goes right in, it's ready.

So you take it out, and then as soon as it's cool enough to touch it should still be hot, then you can absolutely just peel that skin right off, and it will stick maybe in one or two places. But if you do it right and you cook it long enough, that skin comes right off, and then underneath it is just meat. So I don't ever serve tongues that look like tongues because that's weird and gross. And it's like the food that tastes. It's just. It's the food that tastes you back.

But you chop it, you dice it, you shred it, and then I usually always finish it on. On a comal or a flat top or grill it and then chop it, and it's again back to tacos. It makes a baller taco. Oh, I bet. I got into or I got onto a kit of venison heart tacos last season. Oh, there you go. Oh, man, they were amazing. It's a perfect cut for a taco because you're cutting it small. Oh, absolutely. My wife just made us enchiladas with venison or my deer I shot last year, and it's Delicious.

I love when she cooks the enchiladas, and I love when she'll cook the. She has this stuffed shells recipe, and she used to do beef, and then she got with me, and then she uses venison, and she'll probably cook up like 40 at a time. Oh, like Italian. Italian chef shells. Yeah, like the. The. Yeah, the stuffed shells. And then she'll just throw meat in it, and she'll use this. I can't remember the name of what it's called.

And she'll lump it all together, and it's just this meat little ball type deal and wrapped in a salami shell. And. Oh, man, I can eat 20 of those in one sitting. And they're delicious. I love when she cooks them. They sound good. Yeah. I want to get her. I asked her like, hey, because I know John's been working on this cookbook, and I was like, hey, hey, Charity, can I. Can I add those recipes for those two? And she goes, no, they're mine. You ain't getting. So I'll squeeze it out.

So. Hey. Oh, go ahead, bro. I'm sorry. Oh, no, you're good. Go ahead. I got two questions lined up. Yeah, I got one for him, too. Real quick. I just wanted to see while we're on that subject, because he was talking about how he makes the tongue. I was just wondering, do you have any special marinades? Like, what's your go to marinade like when you're. I know it's going to vary with the cuts of meat, but give me one of your typical go to marinades for venison.

I actually don't use marinades very often because they. They really only touch the surface of the meat. Salt will get all the way to the center, but. But all the other stuff really sits in the surface, and it can. It's not a terrible idea, but it's not a. A lot of people have cur. Like, oh, it's my marinade. It's all my marinade. Well, it is and it isn't.

You're going to get a little bit of flavor residual on it from after cooking the meat, because it's just going to be in all the nooks and crannies of that piece of meat. But really what you want to do is take that marinade and boil it, whatever it is. And so it's. It's, you know, it's food safe, and then use it as a sauce after you finish cooking the deer. I would say the one that I use a lot is olive oil and soy Sauce and puree. Green or red chili.

It's a, it's a mixture I learned in Baja Mexico that they use with arachera or skirt steak. Okay. And. And it's really, it's a simple. It's just sort of like a Baja carne asada you marinate. And it's just. I don't really do a lot of complicated stuff. I do complicated sauces, but I don't do complicated marinades. Gotcha. No, that's a good point. That's. That's cool. I'll have to try that. That sounds pretty amazing right there.

Yeah, I'm just trying to remember what I have in my freezer right now. I didn't pull that out for tomorrow. There you go.

My first question is, I might have missed it in your intro, but you being a professional chef, where exactly have you all worked at? So I. My career track is kind of weird. I started as a line cook and a sous chef in Wisconsin when I went to University of Wisconsin, and then I worked in New York and I worked in Virginia, and I basically just bounced around professional kitchens. I was never an executive chef. I never had my own restaurant. And then I became a newspaper reporter for a long time.

And when the newspaper business, you know, basically shit the bed in the early 2000s, I shifted back into the kitchen. And I've basically been doing kinds of pop ups ever since. And it's been a really cool, A really cool experience because you get to learn a lot of different cuisines, you get to work with a lot of different people, a lot of different kitchens, and you don't really have that day in and day out, drudgery of, here's the menu. We got to cook that menu every single time.

And it can get. I mean, having done it, it can be, it's. It's rewarding because, you know, you really get to know whatever it is that is on the menu. But it also bores you to tears after a while. What would you say was your favorite place that you worked in, one place that you learned the most from? I learned the most from a place called the Blue Marlin in Madison, Wisconsin. I started there as the fish prep guy because I'd been a commercial fisherman in college.

And so I prepped all the fish for the better part of a year. And then, you know, as it. If anybody out there listening has been in the restaurant industry, you know that people just don't show up sometimes. And it's a little bit like in football. It's like, next man up. And so I went from fish prep guide to cooking saute, and I. I got a chance to do all of the stations at that restaurant, and it's one of the foundations of the. Of my ability to cook fish and seafood.

I mean, I ended up writing a whole book about it, and I learned a ton there. So I have a question about cooking seafood, then. What is your go to. Or do you even eat the walleye cheeks? Sure, of course. I mean, yeah. I mean, any fish that has cheeks big enough is worth taking the cheeks out. Oh, absolutely. So I completely agree. And I think walleye cheek is, like, probably one of the best cuts of fish I've ever had. All cheeks are good.

And I mean, but walleye cheeks for cod cheeks is what I grew up with. Cod cheeks are great. Probably the best cheeks are halibut because they're big and meaty. They're also, like, 20 times the size of a walleye cheek. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I literally have done a service where everyone gets one halibut cheek, and I. I did, like, a saffron tomato sauce underneath it, and it was. It was pretty damn good. But walleye cheeks, I just like to flour them and fry them, like.

And I like to fry fish in actual, like, Mexican lard. And what I mean by that is the. The. The lard that's not shelf stable. The stuff that's. Yeah. Like, fresh lard. And that's my favorite frying medium. Okay, Very nice. It's weird. Michael's back on the show. I swear, he hated us. Nobody came back on to just. I can answer that question. And. And I personally have never made anything with possum, but I've eaten possum. I was dynamus. Oh, we finally found somebody. We finally found somebody.

Mike. Mike, we found some. Holy. Hank, I'm sorry. I didn't mean to call you up, but we've done. Yeah, yeah. We've got at least on 40 shows with him asking, have you tried possum? And you're the first one finally. Yeah. So possum. So it's down in. In the deep South. And it was an old black lady who made a possum pie with sweet potatoes. There it is. And it was really good, actually. The meat was porkish. It was. It was a light in color. It was kind of stringy because yet she cooked it.

Well, there's an expression like, because, you know, possums will eat anything, right? So a lot of people who eat possums, they'll cap. They'll catch them. And what this lady says, you Got to feed the nasty out of them. So she fed this possum like kitchen scraps for like a week and then. And then murdered this poor thing. Yes. You know, I mean, if you feed a possum for a week, it's your friend. And. And he. He made a bad choice because she killed him and.

And cooked him in a pot and served him with sweet potatoes, and it was pretty good. Wow. It's going to be someone from down south. Yeah, yeah, yeah, we said that. We said that. Yep. I. Wow. You have to cook them out. Let me ask you. I mean, I'll put it this way. I won't go out of my way to kill and eat a possum. Like, you know, it was. It was fine, but it was fine. It tastes like porcupine is. Porcupine is much better. I am a big fan of porcupine. That is for sure.

Yeah. A couple different times. I also don't love killing porcupines because to me, they're like. They're slow and they're kind of chill, and they don't. They're just more like hay, you know, and if I really needed to eat, yeah, Hell, yeah, I'm killing one. But, you know, there's other stuff that eat in the forest that's besides Mr. Porcupine. Yeah. So I typically like this time of year especially, I draw it into the woods where I'm at and get mushrooms.

Like, I have so many oysters and hen of the woods and chicken of the woods already. Any good recipes for those? Well, I don't think you have hen of the woods. You probably have chicken in the woods. Oh, we have both, actually, where we're at. Yeah, you shouldn't have hen of the woods in the spring. They're a fall mushroom. Oh, okay. Yeah. Chicken of the woods. Yeah. So that's the orange one that grows in, like, a shelf. Yeah, that's chicken of the woods.

Yeah. Those are just starting to come out. Those I like. And those are really good. I mean, they call them chicken of the woods because you get. They're not that different from chicken breast. I mean. No, I've done them on the drill just like a chicken breast, and they turn out amazing. I like them. Don't dry them because they basically become wood. Yeah, I found that out the first time. Yeah. So don't dry them.

One good way to preserve them is to cook them and just real simple with salt and olive oil or butter or something, and then cook them as if you're going to eat them that night. And Then let it cool and vacuum seal that. And that's a great way to preserve it. Yep. That's what I've done before. And then I've also made like a. Almost like a poured or a pulled pork with them. Oh, that's cool. And that was really good. And then I made a. We had the lobster claw mushrooms. I found those.

Oh, yeah, those are fun. And oh, my gosh, those are amazing. I made like a. A lobster claw. Poor boy sandwich. And man, those. You can try. Oh, can you? You can. You could. Lobsters dry better than chickens. And then lobsters are great pickled. Really? You gotta cook them. You know, you can't just, like, put them in there raw, but you got to cook them and then. And then you can pickle them. And they'll keep. They'll keep all year in the fridge. Now, what about.

Have you ever tried anything with Old man of the Woods? I've eaten Old man in the Woods a couple times, and they're not my favorite. So those are the three edible mushrooms. Quasi edible. Yeah. Yeah. And they're really easy to identify, so that's why I started with those. And I tried them and I. I was like, oh, mushrooms with eggs. You can't screw it up. So I made scrambled eggs and I put Old man in the woods. And you know how it is. It turns those eggs completely black.

Yeah. And, oh, my God, I couldn't get over the visual effect of it because, you know, you eat with your eyes first. Murder eggs. I couldn't do it. Like emo eggs. Exactly. Yeah. I. I had questions too, and then I just got blindsided by. I got. I got one for him if he. If he's interested. I feel so comfort and ease right now. I don't know why. Oh, that's all right. So, Hank, I. I wanted to ask you.

What do you think is the most underrated game meat? Underrated? Probably javelina. Javelin is probably the first. That's the first thing that popped into my head. Wow. Okay. Because it's. It's a weird. I mean, it's a New World pig. So, I mean, I guarantee you there's 17 people out there like it's a rodent and like it's not a rodent. It's not a rodent. No, it's not. And nor is it really that close biologically. Biologically to old world pigs, except they'd be. Although they look alike, they.

But they co. Evolved. Javelinas evolved in this hemisphere. And one thing that I think is really super cool about them is they're vegetarian, so they will never carry trichinite parasites. So in theory, I've never done it, but in theory you could eat, I mean, javelina sushi. I'm not gonna. But it's a hell of a lot safer than doing that with pork. But I think what happens is they have a really nasty scent gland at the base of their back, like kind of like a tramp stamp.

And if while you're skinning, if, while you're skinning that javelina and you. And you rupture it, God help you because it's a, it's like an oily thing. And, and what happens is the males kind of, they dig it, right? So like they, they, they're stinky on the outside, but that's all they, that's that oils on their fur. So people get all bent out of shape because, like, oh, they stink, they're not edible, blah, blah, blah.

Well, wear a pair of gloves when you skin the animal because it's going to get on your fingers and it's going to get on your knife and it's going to get on everything. Skin the animal like you'd skin anything else. Something special. Just don't nick that part. It's in the skin, so you wouldn't even see it unless you dick around on the skin there. Take it off, take those gloves off, wash your knife and proceed as normal. And you will notice any smell.

Okay. And that's what, really, what gets people crosswise with that animal. But it's delicious. It's one of my favorite ones. Nice. I actually had no idea what this thing was until you said it. And it looks just like a pig that you'd see here in, like, Texas. It's a micro pig. Basically. It's like a little razorback meat hunter. And he cooks it inside of its own stomach. Oh, yeah, that was. Yeah, that was horrible. Yeah, that's. That. I'm not sure about that, but. Right.

Yeah. He also ate a coyote and that was. Yeah, no, thank you. The most heavily parasitized animal in North America. Yes. Number one. Carries a rabies and distemper. I don't have a marinade for that. No, I do. It's called a, it's called a.200 4200ft per second. My question is, hey, you said you love cooking the things that affirm the animal. Is that something that you were always into or is that something that kind of developed over time?

It developed because like everybody else, you know, when you start out, the back strap is king. Well, really probably Tenderloin is king. And then backstrap, and then your hind leg roasts are all like, those are the money cuts. And. But once you get that nailed. And you know, I cook a lot of deer, a lot of venison. I cook a lot of animals, and it's. You get kind of bored with it. And then you're trying to get different flavors, you're trying to get different textures.

And so the fact that there's really no fat. Well, there's no intramuscular fat in these animals. It's all on the outside. And then the problem with deer fat and all cervid fat. So deer, elk, moose, and caribou, those fats don't necessarily taste bad, but they're very high in a very, very, very long chain fatty acid called stearic acid. So stearic acid is the same long chain fatty acid that chocolate has. So when you eat chocolate, it coats your mouth, and everyone's like, oh, it's delicious.

But when you eat deer fat, that cools even a little. If it's piping hot, it's delicious. But if that deer fat cools even a little, it coats your mouth in the exact same way, and it's not so pleasant. So everybody's like. They'll say it tastes bad, but. But it's not the taste so much as the mouth feel, which is a little. I mean, it's a technical difference. But if you were to crisp up pieces of deer fat and they were hot and crispy, they will taste good. It doesn't work. On the same page.

Deer fat, like those little muscular, little white deer fat when we're skinning them out. I mean. You mean the fat that coats the outside of the carcass is what I'm talking about. Okay. Yes. Yeah, yeah. Okay. The talent. We're on the same page. Yeah. The tallow. Yeah. Yeah. All right. So am I doing something wrong when I cook that? Because it always leaves, like, a really waxy, like, flavored, like, literally what I. Just talked about for three minutes. Oh, no, I. I understand.

I mean, that's what I was saying. But yeah, it just like, if I cook the ribs, it's always in there and stuff. Yeah. Because they're not hot enough. The way. The only way you get around it and is if you've got a hind leg roast with some of the fat on the outside. Yep. Just. Just don't even let the. Even if you let it rest, you're going to get that waxy. It's just gotta be hot, hot, hot. And And I don't, I'll be honest, I don't eat a ton of deer fat.

I just don't think it's as disgusting as everybody thinks it is. So for example, if I'm gonna make a deer sausage, I let's say I'm gonna use three pounds of regular deer meat. I'm probably gonna use a pound and a half or a pound and 3/4 of pork fat. And then the rest I'm gonna make up with a little bit of deer fat, like a half a pound maybe.

So what that does is it's not enough to give you the waxy mouth, but it is enough to A, use it so you're not throwing it out and B, it makes your deer sausage taste like a deer sausage and not like a pork sausage. So if you pro, if you processed your deer correctly, then that's a good thing. But if your deer is stinky, then yeah, don't use it.

One of my questions here is what, what was it about the heart that me kind of talking earlier that it's kind of a little bit more challenging for you to cook? Is there anything outside of that though that made like, wow, the heart. It's really, really like cooking this compared to just the boring backstrap that everybody does.

I love cooking the, all the innards, all the offal. I've cooked most of it. And hearts. The only challenging thing about a heart is processing it. So some people cut it into these weird crosswise rings that I think are bizarre looking. And I don't. It's not something I want to eat. Calamari. Yeah, exactly. I basically trim all that hard fat off the top edge of the heart and throw that out because that's the hardest, most saturated fat on the whole animal.

And then I basically use the, the ventricles and the, and the chambers and I open them up kind of like a book. I have instructions for it in my cookbook and you get essentially cutlets. And then what I do with that is if I'm going to do a stir fry, I'll just cut those small. But if I, I've made like schnitzel out of it where you pound it. And this is the single best place to use that jacquard that they, everyone wants to sell you.

That's that like spring loaded blade thingy that you go and it like, it basically tenderizes meat by with all these blades. The best use of it is that is on heart because you can then sear it really hot and fast. You want it kind of Rare, actually, and definitely no more than medium. And it's delicious. The only other thing you can do with a heart is really, really, really cook the crap out of it, like three or four hours.

So it's, it's a little bit like calamari, where it's got to be cooked hot, fast, or forever. Yeah, I, the way I would do mine is thin or cut it really thin, season it, and then just almost like in a w. Because once I, once I pull it out, eat it. That's a great idea. Yep. I take it, I soak it in milk. After I kill it, bring it home, I throw it in a thing of milk, and I let it sit in that. It's preferably like buttermilk. Let it sit open up the ventricles the same way.

Like you said, I'll slice it pretty thin and then I'll cook it, but I do it with olive oil, garlic, peppers, onions, and I kind of make it like a stir fry. And it is a little, sometimes it's a little tough, but it's, it's doable because it's thin, and that comes out great. I, I, I never used to eat it, usually because it's in about four or five pieces, but I, you know, but I learned, you know, to shoot a little far back for the lungs.

So it's like, you know, it, it's, I actually look forward to it now. I really enjoy it. Yeah. I think the thing that I like that nobody else really likes until they try it when I cook it are the, the kidneys. And you talk about buttermilk, and the milk and buttermilk are, are integral to that. So, so kidneys, the English don't soak them at all, which I think is weird. But so once you, I do a double soak on, on, you know, any large game animal, kidneys.

So you'll, you basically take them out, take the fat off. There's a little thin membrane around each one that you have to peel off, but you can just do that with your fingers and then slice them in half lengthwise. So, I mean, they look like a kidney bean. So you slice it in a half, like, so it still looks like a kidney bean. It's just half a kidney bean. And then there's going to be some white, gristly stuff in there. I will usually take that out with either a paring knife or with shears.

And then that first night, it gets a soak in brine. So just a very simple brine, like a quarter cup of salt plus a quart of water, and then that pulls a lot of smell and a lot of blood out. And then the next night, I rinse that off, and then I'll do that in either milk or buttermilk. And then after that, you can cook it in any recipe that you want. Like, I do a steak and kidney pie with venison. I do British deviled kidneys. There's.

There's a bunch of really good recipes that if I serve them to you, you're like, this is really good. What is this? I'm like, it's deer kidneys. And it's because of that soak that. That removes all that, you know, essentially piss smell. Oh, you have a video course on your website. I didn't see that. I do. I've been looking at your website now since I asked you to come on the show, and I didn't see it. What the. Can you talk about this real quick? I'm looking on it and it looks like Benison 101.

And it looks. It is. Yeah. I did that with there. I don't think this company exists anymore, but it's. I did this video course with them some years ago, and it was fun. It was fun. It was very high quality. And they basically wanted a, you know, a Venison 101. And there's a lot of butchering in it. There's a lot of very basic cooking skills in it. And I think it's still valid. It's still there. Like, it's. I haven't heard from him in years, so hard to say. But it was. It was fun to do.

And. And when you watch it, it looks. It's pro. It's. It's the real deal. Wow. Yeah. Geez, I can't believe I missed that thing. You might have answered this question, but like I said, I've been trying to scour through your website here. Is there an animal that you would say that is the most challenging to you to cook? I mean, there's some that I don't want to cook again, like muskrat. I have no. I have no interest in cooking more muskrats, you know, and I can.

If I never cook another sea duck again, I. I'll be okay. Like, I know how. I mean, I could cook sea ducks and make them taste good. I can do it, but it's just like. Like, you've got to get every iota of fat off the sea duck. Otherwise it stinks like low tide in a hot day. And, you know, when I used to live in Northern California in Sacramento, which is a great duck hunting region. And then we would hunt ducks in San Francisco Bay. And that was all kinds of fun.

But that was cool because then you use the rest of the carcasses, Dungeness crab bait, and it's kind of amazing, but I don't need it. I don't really need to do that on the regular. Yeah, spoonies. You know, spoonies aren't my favorite duck. Buffal heads aren't very good. I'm trying to think of stuff like, I mean, there's. There are challenging things. So to flip the question, there are challenging things that I like to cook. Yeah. Like sharp tail grouse would be a good example of that.

Spruce grouse would be a good example of that. You know, some of these stronger flavor dark meat birds are. They're strong and they have a big flavor. And you have to kind of work with it. If you try to, to erase it, you never going to do it and you're going to be sad. You just have to like, like sage grouse. If you eat a sage, grouse will taste like sage. Well, duh. That's what it eats. That sucks. Basically all this thing eats, right? So. So, yeah, so like. Yeah, it's going to say sagey.

So go with that. Go with like rosemary and juniper and regular sage and. And sort of southwestern flavors and you. And you'll be all right. But if you, if you try to make it like a chicken, you're really going to be sad. Now, have you ever came across anything that you thought was going to be horrible but that turned out a lot better than you thought? Are you just going to skip over flavors of the forest's comment, you dickhead?

Oh, we're going to go on to a huge topic of that, but okay. All right. Something I thought was going to be gross. It was actually really good. Well, deer kidneys will be one. I just basically did it as a, as a, as a dare, and it turned out to be really good. Nothing. Let's see. I was surprised how good jackrabbits were. You know what, how do those compare to, like, cottontails? They're 100% different. So jackrabbits are lean, dark meat rabbit.

And so blacktail, whitetail, and antelope jacks are all closer in the kitchen to deer than they are to cocktails because they're big and red meat, but there's no objectionable flavor at all to them. You know, beaver's pretty similar, too. Yeah. Cue any number of beaver jokes. I was getting there. Well, I mean. Well, never Met one I didn't like. Right. Oh, I have. Well, then you just haven't. You just haven't eaten enough beaver. No, no, I've had plenty. I just picked the right ones, I guess.

I guess. But I mean, because we all. Well, mine is Brett. He is not a cook, but Squatch and I and Dave, the other guy that's on here sometimes. We all teamed up with this company, Flavors of the Forest. And they make a raw garlic dust. Yeah. And started off with just the raw darlic dust, and then they went spicy, and now they have so many different flavors. I think my favorite one is the lion's mane mushroom one. Mine's spicy. I like the spicy pepper. I love that one. Oh, that one's good too.

Yeah, but the. The lion's mane mushroom. Garlic on my eggs every morning. Dude, you can't beat it. Cool. My second favorite, horseradish. Oh, that's pretty tasty, too. But I know Nelson. He's the main chef over there at Flavors of the Force. I know he wants to really send you out some. Some of your. Of his seasonings, if you want. Yeah, I'll take a look at them. Absolutely. Awesome. They're. Wow. It's a rough crowd, right?

Man, Brett, you know why he didn't like putting raw garlic dust on his freaking Eggo waffle. That's the only damn thing. Oh, God. Unless you're doing chicken and waffles, that might be good. But, you know, he thinks. He thinks Italian cooks is like Chef Boyardee. And he sprinkles a little garlic powder on it. He's like, oh, this is great, you know? Nice. Yeah. Look at him. Hey, hey, hey. They're up in Oregon.

We have a bond that is just on a different wavelength, that no matter what can't be broken because they're Oregon fans up there. I'm an Oregon fan, and it's all love between us, too. You're just a fan of the trannies and the liberals up there. It is. You know, you're all my. Don't with it. Your transition is coming. Don't get all Ben. Don't worry. You'll be all right. It's supposed to be a politically correct show. Okay. Yeah. Everything we do is freeze dried. Yep. Freeze dried garlic dust.

One question here before we kind of start wrapping up for the night. Hank is. Obviously, there's the big debate out there now with.

I don't know if you want to consider a debate, but you have people that are anti hunters and anti meat, whatever you want to call it. And vegan. What is the vegan. What is the actual health benefits from organic venison wild game meat compared to buying meat from the store? Well, I mean, I think there's a lot of, there's a lot of ways to go about it. I think, number one, it's gonna be lower in fat. Number two, what fat that they have is very high in omega 3 fatty acids, which are healthy.

I think another piece to it is you're actually going out and taking charge of what you feed yourself and your family. And that's important because Lord knows there have been an endless series of scares and adulterated meat and E. Coli and that whole stuff.

And so when you're dealing with, when you're doing it yourself, where, when you're taking charge of the meat that you feed your friends and your family and that sort of thing, there's a health benefit just in that, let alone that goes way beyond calories and way beyond percentage of fat or whatever. And, and that's a huge piece to it. But, you know, venison is higher in protein than beef is ounce per ounce. I mean, we can, we can go through those kinds of things all day long.

I think when it comes to ducks and geese, the fat in ducks and geese is one of the most healthy animal fats in the world. If you render out, you know, mallard or Canada goose or any wild duck fat, which I used to do on the regular when I lived in California, it is so unsaturated, it is liquid in a warm room, and it's actually better for you than butter. So there's a ton of different examples of just clean. It's just clean eating really is probably the best way to put it.

And that's all the rage these days, where it's minimally processed. Because even if you make your own sausage, you're making your own sausage, so you know what's exactly in it. And, and like, if you want to put lips and assholes in your sausage, go for it. I mean, I would suggest you grind a little bit finer, but. But go for it, you know, but. But most people aren't gonna. And it's just a. I think the empowerment question is really a better way to go about it than straight up nutrition.

But the nutrition thing is there. It's just, it's. It's leaner, it's denser in calories, it's denser in protein. It's a, it's a more fulfilling and filling meat, ounce for ounce. Yeah, I'm still on mute. I remember when I was in the police academy and we had to do a food log or food journal and we had to keep track of everything that we'd ate that we'd eat. And one day we had a health eating class. I can't remember exactly what we called.

Anyways, our drill sergeant was very important on eating healthy foods, eating more vegetables and eating clean meat. Stuff like that one photo that always, it sticks out to me like a Thor sore thumb. He put up the, a picture of a cow and it was very small, little red meat and a bunch of fat around it. And then he took like a rabbit I think, and it was just pure meat. He said, which one do you want to put into your body?

The slow, sluggish, fat cow or do you want the clean cut, fast moving, healthy rabbit in your body? It's like, wow. To put those two together like that side by side really puts in your brain of eating wild game like that is 10 times healthier than going to the store and buying steak. I mean, I'm wrong, I'll still eat a steak once in a while, stuff like that. But to eat as much fast as I can and eat lean, fast moving animals in my opinion is the healthier way to go.

I think in the modern American diet. You are correct. However, one of the reasons why there is a lot of hate on things like jackrabbits, it comes from the, from the Depression and the pioneer days when people in the Great Plains got what was called rabbit sickness and it was basically their only source of protein. And so they ate so much of these lean, fast moving animals that don't have any fat on them that what it does is this lack of fat over time inhibits your ability to metabolize protein.

So you actually get malnourished by eating all, just any. You see it on the TV show alone. That's a great example of it. So if the, if they're up there and they're snaring snowshoe hares but they can't get those fatty lake trout, they're in trouble. So let, I think in the modern American diet we get enough fat as it is just by, you know, daily life of, I don't know, Krispy Kreme or whatever the hell we're eating and that when it comes time to cook a piece of meat, hell yeah, venison.

But I just wanted to say that like if you are really anal and retentive about not eating any fat that can actually be damaging to your body. Yeah, he, that's what he said. Like you still need some fat in your body, because that's. Your body naturally needs it. However, just don't consume it in large lump sums at one time, because then you kind of get slow and sluggish. And then doing more research into this, I started eating more.

What are they called, like, macronutrients and micronutrients and anything. A lot more like greens with my meat itself, because then it. Because I hurt my knee in the police academy. And still to this day. But eating those greens along with the. The meat itself reduced inflammation in my joints. And it. The overall health, it gave to me just in the physical feeling of it, mentally over everything, I just felt.

With everything put together, I just felt 10 times healthier, 10 times happier with what I was putting into my diet. Oh, yeah. I mean, you can feel it just with. I mean, just to digress a little bit, like, I'm drinking a beer right now. But if you. I think all of us listening to this know that we don't feel our best when we're pounding beers. While we're pounding beers, it's great. But the next morning, not so great. And. And it's just. It's one of those things where once. I think.

I think a lot of hunters are increasingly becoming more in touch with how you feel. Like, especially people who are hunting backcountry. And like, I mean, I've been on some hunts where, you know, it's not five miles from the truck, it's 35 miles from the truck on foot. And, you know, you. You gotta. You gotta get in shape for that. And so there's a lot more people who are kind of paying attention to that. And it's been. It's been really kind of interesting to watch.

Squatch, Johnny, did you guys have any final questions for Hank? No, I think I'm good. I think I need to order his cookbooks, that's for sure. Yeah, I'm gonna do that here. Yeah, that'd be great. Because apparently I can't cook. So I'm gonna. We all know that I'm gonna cook something up amazing. And I'm gonna say, yeah, Hank showed me how to cook. Dude, I challenge you to that. We want to see that, right? We want to see. This year, I want you to be making this food.

Trust me, in Indiana, I'll be cooking something delicious. And I'm gonna put a little tippy cow right there for a nice something to drink it down with. Well, you almost had me wanting to go there. Now I don't know, right? We know, right? It's a tippy cow, though I've not. Been drinking a lot because it's been a lot of sugary and that's what it caused me, be turned into a fat. So cut that out. So, no, I'll say this because everyone knows, at least they've been should know.

Start of March, I was into this health kick and it's still going. I, I weighed 225 pounds and I was. My drill sergeant would look at me and he goes, man, you're a fat. Get back in safe, you shit. And now I'm down to 208. I cut tippy cow out. I, I'll still drink a beer or two here and there on the weekends and just been running a lot, eating a little bit better and working out as much. And yeah, down to 208 and I feel a lot better what I was doing. Oh, you're still ugly. But oh yeah, ugly as.

I mean, genetics are genetics, you know. We'll send you a brown paper bag that butter face. Wow. Hank, I got a couple rapid fire questions I want to shoot your way though. Okay. All right, the answer is B. Be nice. Nice. Besides, like hunting and cooking, is there anything, any other hobbies or interests that you have? I mean, I garden a lot and I, I'm, I'm a forager, so I'm out in the woods all the time. So there's a lot of, like a lot of my life is revolves around acquiring food somehow.

And whether it's hunting or fishing or foraging, I think that, God, what would the other. I don't know, man. Like, I'm, I'm. This is what I do. It's, it's what I think I love about it is that there's so many facets of all three of those things. Plus cooking, of course. You know, there's always something new to learn.

And especially because I only moved to Minnesota in 2023, the learning, the brand new environment, the brand new, you know, all the different plants and the different ways of hunting. It's been really exciting. So I guess the answer to that is, you know, learning new cool stuff. Is there a wild game animal you want to try eating that you haven't tried yet? I've killed most of them. I just didn't know if there's something out there. Like, man, I really want to. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Big horn, Big horn sheep. Big horn. Okay. Yeah. I'm not in the right tax bracket, but hopefully somebody will give me some. Let me see, where's the next question? Last one here. What do you think we as fellow hunters could or should do to help improve the hunting community as a whole? I think the answer is to feed them, feed them food. Like the best way to make. You're never going to turn, turn an anti hunter because their minds are already set up.

But the most people in, in this country are neither anti hunters or hunters, they're non hunters, which is, there's a difference. And so if you can feed them something that tastes good that you hunted and they like, oh, this is really good. And they can see that one of the major reasons, if not the major reasons why we do what we do is to, is to give ourselves and our friends and our family good, clean, healthy, delicious food. The approval rating for hunting skyrockets to like 80%.

And it's, it's so I think cooking skills are for game and fish too. You know, I mean, everyone's had bad fried fish and it's just sort of sad. And cooking skills will show off. It doesn't have to be fancy, but I mean, good, solid bedrock cooking skills will show off the game that we bring home and spend so much time to, to get.

I mean the classic case is like you see these TV shows of, you know, Billy Joe, Jim Bob, who has been sitting in a deer stand and he shoots this giant, you know, 180, 180 class deer. He's like, oh man, look at the G twos on this guy. And, and it just looks like he just sat there for like one morning and blasted, you know, Mr. Big Rack. Right. But what you don't know is that guy probably sat in the stand 30 days to get that deer.

And so I think, I think the, another thing that, that hunters can do is, is kind of expensive. Explain the joy we feel when we finally get that thing done. Because it's quite often the result of sometimes years of either training or practice or just putting in time. And if you just see like the jubilant face of a guy, it's usually a guy sitting over a deer. Like that image doesn't translate unless you know the backstory.

And so that a lot of people who are ambivalent about hunting see that and like, why are you like so happy this thing died? And it's not what we, that's not what it is at all. But it can look like that. So being a little careful with that hero shot is another good tip to, you know, make non hunters sympathetic to what we do. That's a perfect answer. Oh, absolutely. That's like a top two answer that We've had on the show. I'm not just doing that just to pat your dick or anything like that.

I mean, that comes later. That's. But that costs extra. There we go. There we go. That's what I'm talking about. I mean, I need the two fisted. I mean. And Squatch sit on your hand. I need the stranger. Oh, look, I love this guy. Hand them big hands. Hey. Oh, nice. Hank. Thank you so much. I know you're a busy guy. I know you're getting a book tour coming up here soon. I want to say thank you so much from myself and everyone from the team here on the show.

We really appreciate it means a lot to us. Real quick, thanks for having me on. I. I'm a real. I'm sad my camera didn't work. Yeah, it's okay. I'm sure it would have brushed the camera anyways. That's probably why. Just kidding. Real quick, let me ask this question first. When does your book start? Book tour start? So it starts in the middle of June, so just a couple weeks away. And I'm going to be trying to get to all over the country by Christmas. So I've got about 35 events planned right now.

And I'm going to try. And I can't get to all 50 states, but I'm going to try and get to as many as I can and. But you know, you can get the book on Amazon.

It's called Borderlands Recipes and Stories from the Rio Grande of the Pacific. And it is the culmination of over 20 years of travel on both sides of the border. And it's not 100% hunting and fishing, but it's. I gotta be me, right? So it's for every beef taco, there are things with venison and wild fish. And it's just a cool, cool book. And it's gonna be super fun to promote because it's gonna have a little something for everybody in it. You have any stops in Michigan by chance? Not yet.

I'm looking for a venue. So if you got an idea, I would love to go to Michigan because I have so many readers there and I love that state. I just. I don't have a venue right now and I'm looking for one. So if you guys got ideas, I'll. I'll see. Like Kalamazoo or Portage would probably be the best place. Traverse City. Traverse City, Grand Rapids, even Lance Lansing. But yes, but Grand Rapids have had a really good event before.

I. I've not yet gone to Traverse City, but everybody Else may need to go. And then. And then Lansing. I've had a number of good events. You haven't been to Traverse City yet? Where? Traverse City. I have not. I have not been there yet. I need to. I would go there. I. I would love for you to come here to Kalamazoo. Cause it's like right down the road from me. But if. If I find out that you're up in Traverse City, I'm going to take a vacation up there to Traverse City. It is beautiful up there.

It's just amazing. Amazing place up there. I almost move my whole family up there because it's just so beautiful up there. I fished near there, so I know the region. Yeah. Well, Hank, thank you so much, man. Where can people find you and reach out to you and follow along your journey and order your book? Sure. The Instagram is probably where I'm most active, so I am part of Hunt Gathercook on Instagram and I have a Facebook group called Hunt Gathercook. You can find me there.

My website is huntgathercook.com and that's the easiest way to find that. I also run an essay website where I do actual writing. Writing, you know, not just recipes called to the Bone, and that's on Substack. So those are really good ways to follow where I go. I think if you're interested in the book, you. You can get at Borderlands and all my other books on Amazon, that's probably the easiest way. You can also buy them directly from my website, which is Hunter Inglegardner Cook.

And that's about it. You know, I mean, I'm. I'm pretty easy to find. Like you can. I literally have a Wikipedia page, so it's. Right on. So, yeah, I'm pretty. I can't hide real well. So, you know, if you want to find me, you'll find me. But I would say Instagram or, or my, my website are the two best places to go. So which book in particular would you say would I look at solely for venison? Oh, Buck Buck Moose, of course. Buck Buck Moose.

Yeah. It's an entire book dedicated to all things big game. So it's, it's. It's primarily venison, but there it is. Yeah, it, it. Here's a. Here's a. You know, spoiler alert. Any venison recipe is going to work with antelope or moose or caribou or even bison. It's just a matter of size. And there are only sort of minor differences between one or the other. So Buck, muff, moose. If you're a deer hunter, that's the book you need to start with. And by the way, Squatch.

Yeah. You see that dish on the COVID It looks damn near the way you cook deerheart, isn't it? Yeah, it's deer heart. Yeah, it's damn near the same recipe. It's pretty wild. That's awesome, man. Yeah, that's a deer. I put. I liked it so much I put it on the COVID Sweet. That's deer heart. Yeah, man. Yeah. Oh, that's badass. And that's kind of like a secret. Everybody thinks it's backstrapped. I thought it was. Yep. That's. I'm gonna have to save the. Save the heart from my deer this year.

I'm gonna cook that up. Just shoot a boring deer and head shoot it. Yeah. Well, actually I didn't had shoot my deer this year. It was a scored 150. So I'm like, yeah, I'm not gonna blow that skull up. Yeah, we're gonna save it. But the year before I shot three boring deer and so they. They were all headshot. Cool. Nice. Squatch. How can people reach out to you and find you, man? You guys all know 8pm Sundays and Tuesdays on the Whitetail Advantage.

You can also catch me on boondocks hunting Garden State outdoorsman Mike Nitray and Frank Mystique and all the rest of the bunch out there. Instagram outdoors. More in the squatch and my YouTube channel outdoors. And more with the squash. Thank you, guys. Johnny, take us out. Yeah, you can usually find me on Instagram at Nitro Outdoors. And that's really about it. And it's Grinder. His grinder. Yeah. Nice grooming. Actually.

Advantage like flavors of the forest said, it always turns out to be a little gay on this show some way. I mean, it's that month, isn't it? Yeah. And it's true. There you go. There's my month. So though, accept it. Yeah. Have a great rest of your night. I'm going to do the outro because I just want to myself anyways. Have a great rest. All right. Have a good one, guys. See you. Take it easy. Oh, man.

Well, everyone, that's going to conclude another episode of the Whitetail Ban podcast. I want to say thank you to everyone that's tuned in for tonight's show. If this show made you laugh, made you think, gave you a new perspective, please hit that like and subscribe button. If you listen to this on the audio version, please give us that 5 star rating. Also give us your feedback. We always wanted to find ways we can prove on the show.

The audio versions of our podcast gets released every Monday and Wednesday at 5am Eastern Time. If you want to be a guest on our live show or you want anyone from Whitetail Advantage to be a guest on your next show, to our website whitetail advantage.com and submit requests through there. Also, last but not least, put your quarter in the slot machine and we'll see everyone next time. Thank you for tuning in to another episode of the Whitetail Advantage Podcast.

We hope you enjoyed the show and we will see you next time.