WCI #468: Financial Mistakes High-Income Professionals Should Avoid with Amanda Harrell

SoFi also offers the ability to lower your payments to just$100 a month while you're still in residency. And if you're already out of residency, SoFi's got you covered there too. For more information, go to SoFi.com slash whitecoat investment. SoFi student loans originated by SoFi Bank NA member FDIC. Additional terms and conditions apply. NMLS 696-891. All right, we've got a fun interview, a fun episode for you today. We're going to get into the weeds a little bit.

We're gonna do some nuance today. We're gonna talk about things like direct indexing and maxing out retirement accounts and all kinds of fun topics like that. We're going to talk about uh uh you know whether or not you should bother doing a backdoor Roth IRA. But before we get into that and we get our guests on the line, I wanted to let you know about a few things. First of all, our financial educator award. Okay. If there's someone that's been teaching

you know, their peers, their colleagues, their trainees about finance. We want to recognize them. Please nominate them for the Financial Educator Award at Whitecote Investor dot com slash educator. This Saturday is the last day to nominate them. And uh if if you have the winning nomination, you win too. You know, they can get a thousand bucks and the recognition. You can get a WCI online course. So we'll bribe you to to make a nice recommendation for somebody, a nice nomination.

You know, and uh we'll even ha if you're interested in being a financial educator, we're gonna give you some resources. I put together some slides, update them every year or two um that you can use and you can modify as needed for your own presentation. You can find those also. Whitecoat Investor dot com slash educator. You have until April 25th to nominate somebody for this year, and uh and I hope you do.

Okay, our um quote of the day today comes from Thomas Stanley, right? Of Stanley and Danko Fame, the millionaire next door, right? Uh who said, Wealth is what you accumulate, not what you spend. So important to understand the difference between income and wealth. It's important what you're doing every day. That's why we thank you for it. It it is wonderful work that you do. We want you to do well.

while you're doing good. And that's the whole point of helping you become financially educated, helping you become financially literate, helping you worry less about your money so you can concentrate on what really matters in your life, your practice, your patience. your family, your own wellness. Let's help you quit worrying about money so you can you spend your time on those.

Okay, uh like I said, our guest today is uh has got a few pet peeves. So let's get her on the line. I want to talk about her pet peeves and uh and let's get into some nuance about some of the things we talk about here uh on WCI all the time.

My guest today on the White Coat Investor Podcast is Amanda Harrell. Amanda is the senior wealth management at FPL Capital Management, who also does IQ 401K. Amanda, welcome to the podcast.

at the second one. But uh at the first one I got to spend a dinner uh with the folks at FPL Capital Management, which is always a pleasure, and I'll tell you why. Um Whitecoat Investor has been here for 15 years. It'll be fifteen years in May. And guess who our first advertiser was? It was FPL Capital Management. And so we're grateful for that relationship. You know, they were there at a table in the tiny little hall outside the first WCI con.

Park City, you know, they've been along for the long ride. And uh they help a lot of white coat investors with their four oh one Ks. This IQ four oh one K is this, you know, high touch but but low cost. service for those of you putting a four one K in at your practice. And in fact when we changed over from an individual four one K when we changed all our, you know, independent contractors to employees and we needed a real Arissa four one K.

we contacted all the people on our list and guess which bid came in the best. It was, you know, IQ four one K. So they do R four one K. If you've heard about the best four one K in the world, the WCI four one K These are the folks that run it. So, Amanda, thanks for all your help with uh with my own 401k. You helped me do my bay mega backdoor Roth every year, and I appreciate it very much.

But we had a discussion. Amanda's like, There are so many pet peeves that I want to come on your podcast and talk about so that I can point to this podcast episode when I talk to white coat investors and uh and they only believe what you say. So So we're gonna hit a whole bunch of those topics today. It's gonna be great.

And then they overlook, you know, other aspects. The the pros of doing it.

So, you know, with the 401k, you have your traditional fixed income exposure and then your equity exposure and that's it. not everyone has a four oh one K plan like you guys do where you have the flexibility to purchase anything that's available on Fidelity's platform. I and I think that too it's even more relevant today. And I'm gonna I guess knock on your listeners for a second, but you do have a very like bogalhead

type of of audience. And even Vanguard is predicting long term capital market assumptions for equities. I think it's like four to six percent. So I think it makes, you know, private markets more relevant today.

If you're offering a crappy four one K, you can be sued for it. Yep. And you can, you know, this is the way you get your four one K changed is you subtly mention to, you know, HR or whoever's in charge of it that, you know, you got some liability here offering such a crappy four one K and maybe

They will change it. But that's one reason you could you you might want to be in an IRA. Especially if we're talking about, you know, you're rolling over a two million dollar four hundred one K into an IRA and you're like, oh, I don't want to do that because I want to be able to put seven thousand dollars into a backdoor Roth every day. Well the backdoor Roth is chump chain.

essentially to work out the same, you know, tax benefits over time. But if you take it a step further and say that like my husband's four oh one K, it's with Voya. They don't allow in planned Roth conversions. So let's say the market's down twenty percent. I want to do a Ross conversion for him. I can't. If you rolled it over to the rollover IRA, you can do the Roth conversion whenever you want. And markets down twenty, forty percent. I mean, it just makes sense.

also the rule of fifty five instead of fifty nine and a half, right? I if you separated from the employer, you can get to uh four one K assets without that ten percent penalty.

starting at age fifty five, not fifty nine and a half. So that's a good reason to leave money in a four one day. And then of course you can keep doing, you know, a backdoor Roth IRA process each year if you don't have any money in a traditional IRA. But I agree with you, especially if we're talking about millions of dollars

You know, it it's it's a pretty small benefit you're getting for being able to do your backdoor Roth IRA every year. And it's not like you can't still save that money for retirement. Just gotta save it in in a taxable account. And if you want more Roth money, you can still do Roth conversions of that IRA. So the points well taken. What else do we got to say about that topic? Anything else?

we were trying to introduce private markets and he's not unlike uh many other people, like where all of their assets are in a four oh one K or in retirement. Maybe they have a small, smaller taxable account. And we were saying, you're approaching retirement, you really need to start introducing these other asset classes. Well, all he had was bonds and equities, his entire accounts down. We wanted him to have access to the private markets.

some of those, you know, diversifiers. I think private real estate index was up eight percent, private credit index was up six percent in twenty twenty two when everything else was down.

in it. And o obviously that means he's wrong sometimes because there's a lot in personal finance that is nuanced. But there's also value to getting rid of nuance. Right. And just having very these are the baby steps. You follow these, you'll be fine, you know. There's some value to not having the nuance either, right? Because if all we ever did on this podcast was get into the weeds, we spent all our time in the weeds, people would think, oh

All this, you know, detail matters a lot. We really gotta know about this. Or worse, this is too complicated for me. I'm not gonna do And so I think we have to be a little bit careful to recognize that yes, there's nuance and oftentimes nuance matters. But we gotta be careful not to get into too much nuance, or it just ends up, you know, spoiling the pie. Okay, let's move on to your next pet peeve.

Uh, he's like, I think we can make the case much better. So part of it's expense. A lot of people out there doing direct indexing are just charging you a lot for it. If you're hiring an advisor and paying'em one percent a year to help you do direct indexing And that's the only reason you're hiring them. You may may not not be getting that that sort of value out of But there's more to it than just the expense. Tell us what other problems we have with it.

just from everyday equity market volatility. So I think right now statistics is once every two years the market's dipping ten percent and then maybe four to five years a twenty percent dip. So you're naturally gonna have those benefits. Like if you're continuously adding money. So I think that's my biggest issue is there is no benefit and there's definitely no long-term benefit. And then I think that you're also signing up for underperformance.

I don't know about Frex performance but I I mean I've looked at Parametric. They're one of the biggest in the industry, their US large cap core, which is basically indexing the S P, under underperformed 3% over one, three, five, seven, ten year numbers. So you're signing up for underperformance. No one goes into direct indexing saying like, ah, they're gonna provide excess market return or I'm here for the overperform the it that doesn't exist.

you know, you hope they it perform in line with the markets and get some tax lost harvesting benefits, but why pay for someone when you could do it yourself?

from tax losses, you don't need that many. And you can get all the tax losses you need just by tax loss harvesting every year or two and the market's depth ten or twenty percent. Tax loss harvest your last few lots that you bought. That's going to give you a lifetime of three thousand dollars per year. Okay, so other uses for losses. Well, if you end up not liking your portfolio, right? You can change your portfolio without a tax cost for it. There's some benefit to that.

other uses, you know, i in retirement, right? If people need to sell some shares to to fund their retirement, um they generally sell stuff that they've owned for at least a year with the highest basis. And if you combine that with some tax losses that you've been carrying forward, you can get a lot of spending money out of not that many tax losses.

And maybe if you had more because you'd done direct indexing, maybe, you know, that process could last longer. But whether you need it to last longer or not is very individual. It turns out s like six out of seven retirees aren't spending as much as they could anyway. They're just mostly spending their income. They're not realizing any capital gains anyway.

And so they don't need more tax losses. They're not even going to use the tax losses they can get just from tax loss harvesting at the fund level. Other things you could use tax loss harvest for if you move, right? And you've got a really expensive house. The problem with the stupid personal home exemption is it was never indexed to inflation. It's still two hundred and fifty thousand dollars single, five hundred thousand dollars

married. It it's been that for as long as I can remember. Uh since it was put in place, I think. It hasn't been indexed to inflation and certainly the value of white coat investor houses has gone up dramatically. If we sold now, well maybe not with all the money we put into a renovation. But, you know, if we hadn't done that we'd have a substantial, you know, above the five hundred thousand dollar exemption.

capital gain and it would allow us to move or downsize without having to pay taxes on that. So that'd be a benefit. But I think the main benefit is people that are entrepreneurs like me. I've got this business whose basis is basically zero. Right. So if I ever sold WCI, the entire value of it would be taxable at twenty three point eight percent federally plus four point five percent or whatever it is in Utah state.

And so any tax losses I can come up with would offset that gain. And so I go, Well, more, you know,'cause'cause they do argue and I think the argument's valid that you can get more losses from direct indexing than you're likely to get from just tax loss harvesting at the fund level. And somebody like me, maybe those losses would be worth it. But it is going to cost me at least nine basis points.

And if we wa as we get to the second part about potential underperformance, it might cost me a whole lot more than that. Um but the point is most people aren't like me. They don't own a WCI. You know, how much use do you really have for more losses? This is a discussion I have when people come to me and ask me about direct indexing and I'm like, well, how much value do you have to more losses?

And if they just get really vague that we think it'd be a good thing, I basically tell them don't do it because, you know, you you probably won't have that many gains to deal with.

whole life insurance. It's a lifelong decision. If you want to do direct indexing, not only are you paying somebody to do that the rest of your life, but you're probably doing direct indexing with that taxable account. the rest of your life. And even then your errors are gonna have to clean up that those five hundred stocks or whatever.

You know. And so you're not stuck with two fifty, you're really stuck with twenty four. And that's much more manageable. So that was part of the argument. The other argument was, well, you can use all those losses. To offset the gains. You know, you know.

uh uh for. But I I think it's maybe there's some people out there that don't understand why the losses are all so front loaded. So let's explain that a little bit better. Why do you get, you know, whatever it is, eighty or ninety percent of your losses in the first three years after making an investment?

When you tax loss harvest, that's what's being tax lost harvest, whether you're doing it at the fund level or whether you're doing it at the individual security level. You know, part of this problem why direct indexing exists at all is the stupid investment company act of nineteen forty. Right? Where basically the funds can't pass the losses through to you.

'Cause if they could, the funds could do the tax loss harvesting for you and you could get these losses passed to you. The worst part about it is they have to pass the gains to you and they can't pass the losses to you. Now they can use their losses to offset their gains. But it's really kind of you feel hosed when you have a a fund, especially, you know, you have some relatively high turnover actively managed fund in a taxable account.

And nothing happened during the year. You got your eight percent return or whatever. And all of a sudden the fund gives you a twenty-four percent capital gains distribution. at the end of the year and you're like, What what is this? You know, I'm only up eight percent, now I gotta pay taxes and all these capital gains. So part of it is just the nature of how mutual funds are designed.

Okay, let's turn to your other point. Your other point was about uh at least potential underperformance. And and I quizzed, you know, the CEO of Freck about this and I'm like, Well, you know, i if you're if you're not following the index exactly, which you can't be if you're tax less harvesting all these securities, you know, you're gonna have some uh tracking error.

His argument was that you were as likely to have positive tracking error as negative. You're arguing that you think performance is gonna lag long term, you know, the majority of the time, most of the time. Uh explain why you believe that.

direct indexing strategy where in twenty twenty the after tax return was still lower than the S P. So what does that say? You would have been better off just owning SPY even if you didn't have a single lot to tax loss harvest, not even a dividend reinvestment, you would have been better owning that than doing the direct indexing strategy with however many positions. I I I just I don't see it. And uh the after tax return uh it's very misleading.

and you run that out over decades, because remember this is a lifelong commitment to direct indexing, you run that out over decades, you may have enough underperformance on this multimillion dollar portfolio to eliminate all the benefit from those tax losses that you harvested.

you know, in the first few years when you move money into this sort of a portfolio. So uh you gotta be real careful about underperformance. Underperformance could eliminate all the benefit of those losses, especially if you're one of those people that doesn't get a lot of benefit from those losses. Okay, we beat that have we beat that horse to death. You got anything else to say about direct indexing?

you can put in alerts. So you can put in an alert for like, you know, SPY. Send me an email or a text when it drops 10% from me high, 20% from me high. And then you use that. you know, entry point or or that period in time to go and do your tax loss harvesting, it keep it as simple as that. You don't need to be a day trader, you know, trying to harvest these losses and I think at the end you'll be better than if you did direct indexing.

I guess maybe that one the news wouldn't have been wouldn't have been blaring about it. You know, if you pay a little bit of attention. I I am not looking at my portfolio more often than every The other thing is people start thinking about this frenetic kind of tax loss harvesting. They come up with like six tax loss harvesting partners for one asset class. And I'm like, What are you doing?

You're missing the point here, right? They tax lost harvest and three days later, they go to another fund and seven days later they go to another fund and they're like, Uh uh I I need another fund. I've been through six and it hasn't even been thirty days yet. And I'm like, You're missing the whole point. I never tax lost harvest more frequently than every two months.

But I don't even look for two more months because additional losses aren't that valuable to me, number one. So you don't have to get every dollar of losses that are out there. And if you wait at least two months then you never run into the sixty day dividend rule, you never convert dividends accidentally from qualified to unqualified, and you're certainly never going to run afoul of the thirty-day wash sale rule. So I I think it's

You don't have to be frenetic about tax loss harvesting. Now what percentage of the losses that I might get if I was direct indexing am I getting just by doing that occasionally at the fund level? I don't know. But even if it's only fifty or sixty percent. It's probably it's probably enough. Like I said, I've been carrying losses forward for a long time already and I haven't used them. So barring a sale of WCI, I'm gonna carry these tax losses to my grave and they're gonna disappear.

Let's talk about something I ran into the other day. And this is a little bit related. I mean you guys help WCIers with their 401ks. And a lot of people are like, oh, your 401k sounds awesome. I want one like yours. And they don't realize that in order to get increased four one K contributions, in order for practice owners to be able to put seventy two thousand dollars in their four one K, that often means pain penalties. for their non highly compensated employees.

to our employees. So talk a little bit about that. When people come to you guys, they want, you know, a 401k and they've got three front office staff in their dental clinic or whatever. Um but they want to put$72,000 into their 401k. What what insight do you give

If I do a 3% safe harbor, if I do a 6% profit sharing, if I do this, they'll run the calculations. This is how many dollars you're going to need to contribute. but here's the tax benefit. So they will break down the exact tax benefit you will receive as the employer. And it's gonna be based off of your contributions to the plan and then, you know, the the business, you know, tax deduction standpoint.

I think that seeing the numbers written out on paper is more palatable than to just say, hey, you're gonna have to give thousands of dollars to your employees. So that that I would say is step one. Then I think when you're you're gonna look at

doing like the defined benefit plan, those sorts of things. Those are going to be more commitments. But with the profit sharing, your safe harbor match, it's not a commitment. Each year you can go to the TPA and say, hey, I want to max out. Hey, I want to see the max. Can we bring it down fifty thousand? It's not something that's set in stone like, you know, the defined benefit plan or the cash balance plan.

It's gonna cost it's gonna cost you something, right? And uh and it may and it may or may not be worth it to you depending on how much your employees value those contributions. So Okay. You have mentioned before one stop shop.

And a problem you have with one sho stop shops and I I think your main beef is they end up yes, you can go to one place and get everything done, whether that's taxes and financial planning and asset management and estate planning and asset protection and everything. But I think your argument is that if you go to a one stop shop, rather than getting the best of each of these categories, you end up with mediocre in three or four of them.

I see the argument about I'm super busy, it makes my life easier, but I think you're you're giving up something in return. And I think like let's say you're working with an advisor, they're not a one-stop shop is just to see with like, hey, who do you recommend um as a CPA? There may be a CPA firm or a few CPA firms that can work seamlessly with your advisor.

that'll make your life just as easy, but you're still getting the best. You're getting the best wealth manager. You're getting the best CPA, the best estate attorney. So I I think there's ways to get it done without, you know, getting mediocre services.

They can't do my taxes too? Or at least give me tax advice? I I understand the frustration people have. Uh and they're like, Really? Uh you know, how much do I really have to pay for this?'Cause I only make You know, two or three or four hundred thousand dollars and now I gotta spend forty thousand dollars on advice and service.

You know, in in oftentimes they can save people more in taxes than the cost of their fees. So I get it, but it's the attraction of a one stop shop, I understand. I because, you know, uh this is the way we think. We're like, well You know, why why shouldn't I be able to get that? I'm spending thousands of dollars a year. I should be able to get that. But I I guess in a lot of respects, you're not gonna get, you know, your your pulmonary advice from your family practice doctor.

There there are people that that's their job is to run your family office, even if they're uh even if they're also running another family's family office as well or something.

Okay, let's look at another one I've been thinking about. That is this drive to always max out retirement accounts. Right. So you're doing it wrong if you're not maxing out your retirement account. Now, uh in general, saving more money is generally a good thing. Uh you're generally, you know, your money's gonna grow faster inside retirement accounts. You're also gonna get some asset

protection there. I'm a big fan of using retirement accounts. I'm a big fan of saving. Most people, including most doctors, aren't saving enough money, so encouraging them to max out retirement accounts is generally a good thing. When is it the wrong advice?

Now versus the retirement account, it's been taxed already. You're gonna invest it in a in a taxable account. You buy SPY, when you withdraw the funds, it's gonna be taxed as long term capital gain. I don't see what is the huge benefit of a retirement account in that scenario.

Sometimes they have better use for their money, right? And they're like, Oh, I have to max it out. I've got a I I've got a four oh three B and I got a four fifty seven B and I have a four oh one A and we gotta do our backdoor Roth IRAs and you add it all up and it's thirty-five percent of their income.

Right, is going into retirement accounts. You know, I've got a pretty good situation in my partnership. I could put in as much as a hundred and twenty thousand dollars into A defined benefit plan and seventy two thousand dollars, I guess eighty now, because I'm older, eighty thousand dollars into um you know the the four one K profit sharing plan.

So that's a hundred and you know, whatever that is, one hundred and ninety, hundred and two hundred thousand dollars I could put in retirement accounts. I didn't make two hundred thousand dollars clinically in the last couple of years. And so uh obviously you're not gonna put everything in there. You gotta live on something. And I I think when people do this, uh they make a couple of mistakes. I think the the first one is that they just save too much.

Right. Where whereas they'd probably be happier if they actually spent more money. So I think that that's the first issue with always max out retirement accounts. Yes, it's generally a good thing, but here you are at sixty seven you still got a side gig and you're, you know, putting money into a solo four hundred one K. You're at the stage of life when your net worth maybe oughta be decreasing. You oughta be spending more.

then you're making it you ought to be, you know, giving it away, that sort of thing, this whole die with zero philosophy, and you're still

saving like crazy. The other thing is you might have a better use for your money in some other type of account. You know, maybe that taxable account would work out better for you due to its flexibility. Right. Maybe there's a better chance this money's gonna go to charity. Um and uh

You know, maybe it's y should be in a five twenty nine or it should be an HSA. I'd be going towards some other use for money rather than five twenty nine accounts. The classic example is this partner I was talking to the other day. where where he's been doing a great job saving for a long time. And he's like, we'd really I think be happier if we were in a bigger, better house.

And so he's like, I think I'm gonna cut my I think I'm gonna cut how much I put in the profit sharing plan this year. And he felt guilty about it. And he felt bad about it. He felt like he had to justify the decision to me. We're just chatting in between patients, right? So I think people get into this, you know, I have to max out my retirement accounts. I have to do everything I can and and really you gotta you gotta come back to your goals every time and go, What is your goal?

uh you hope that your pl that plan allows you to push off the the taxable disbursement until after retirement. Sometimes they don't. Sometimes they force you to take it within ninety days of of your termination. And then it's very rare that I I have a physician client who truly believes that the hospital system that they work for is in uh great shape in that it will be around for the next forty years or twenty years. Uh that's really rare.

So yeah, in that in those examples we try to push client. I think you'd be better off saving than the taxable, but they want to get as much of a tax deduction as they as they can.

Um, you know, we you had something come up on the WCI forum talking about trying to get a a a step up and basis in your irrevocable trust by naming the generation before you your parents. as one of the beneficiaries of this trust, right? It's just this massive optimization. And I started running the numbers on I'm like, wow, that could be a lot of income taxes I could save

somebody a generation or two from me, you know, uh, because this you lose the step up and basis in in the irrevocable uh trust account. And I'm like, I I don't know that I want to go have this discussion, you know, with my wife's ninety three year old grand Adding him as a beneficiary of our trust. You know what I'm saying? I mean, it's just the optimizing can sometimes get a little bit crazy. How should people find a balance between being an optimizer and being a satisfier?

We should do some tax gain harvesting, right? We should update your basis and all in all these funds and then, you know, when you eventually sell'em you'll save all this money in uh in capital gains taxes. Well It's true, I did the numbers right, and uh we only you know realized as many gains as she would get in the 0% long-term capital gains bracket. We owed no additional money in federal taxes for updating her base. You know who we owed money to?

But that's assuming number one that those taxes would have had to be paid eventually, whereas she might go to another state that has a zero percent income tax rate and never had to pay those state taxes on those gains. Uh she might also, you know, realize those gains, you know, within the next few years before she really is into the 15% bracket. And so maybe I'm updating basis that doesn't matter anyway, and she'd never get that benefit from it.

So it's kind of classic, you know, uh questionable overoptimizing just to to get this benefit. I'm like, Oh, this would be great, we'll save you, you know, seven thousand dollars or something in future long-term capital gains taxes and instead it cost a thousand dollars in state taxes and and maybe we'll never actually save that seven thousand dollars in long-term capital gains.

for example, SSO, it's two times the market. Now when you're when it's going down, you're getting two times down. When it's going up, you're getting like one and a half percent because of of the decay in those leverage funds. But it's a plan to Capitalized on the market dip. So now they're they're sort of excited. Oh, the market's dip. You know, they saw here's a perfect example. Uh Mark.

market started dip. I think it was ten percent. April dip to twenty percent and by July first we're closing out. You know, we're back at the multi the market all time high. So it was a quick you know, little turn. So the market was down what, five percent this week or something like that. And they're excited, like, Oh my goodness, are we gonna get to deploy or two times

the market strategy. Um so it it just changes the mindset. And I think that if more investors would embrace something like that, then they wouldn't be scared about, you know, market's all time high, we're gonna get a correction soon.

from behavioral aspects. So so I like that part of it. But a as far as um you know, capitalizing on a market dip. Well, i if you're in the accumulation years and you're periodically investing, you invest something every month, you're kind of capitalizing on dips anyway, right? You get excited, oh, a chance to buy

you know, more shares for the same amount of money. That's exciting, you know, and maybe that helps you to to stay the course and not be afraid of dips. Or some people go, Well, i if it dips I'll I can get some tax loss harvesting and that helps me to stay the course. But um I guess I worry with a strategy like the one you're describing because the market timing aspect of it is hard.

Right? If you're introducing leverage as the market goes down, well, let's say the market goes down twenty percent. And you're like, Okay, market dipped, let's uh, you know, let's leverage up a little bit, whether you're using a leveraged ETF or whether you're borrowing against your house or against your portfolio or whatever. Well, what happens now when the market drops another thirty percent? Right? It turns out this is two thousand eight instead of twenty twenty two.

You know, now you've leveraged your second drop. Well, what's that gonna do not only to your portfolio, but to your behavior and your ability to stay the course?

invested very aggressively. And um so it's interesting, so much of uh of investing is behavioral, right? And and recognizing that your enemy is the person you're looking at in the mirror every morning. And uh and doing all you can to to recognize who your real opponent is when it comes to investing can can sometimes be a good thing.

Okay, Amanda, I think our time is up. I think we've we've hit your pet peeves. You can refer clients now to uh to this podcast. This is number four sixty-eight. And I think we we got into nuance today and whether that's good or bad, um, you know, for someone who this is their first WCI podcast, they're not all like this, I promise.

But for those of you who've been looking for something new and maybe a deep dive into some topics, I hope we did that for you today. Thank you so much for being willing to come on, Amanda. If you're interested in in talking more to Amanda, you can go to FPL Capital Management. She'll talk to you all day. They can help you with your four own K. They do asset management. Uh they've been sponsoring us for fifteen years. Thank you for that sponsorship and thanks for being on the podcast today.

Have this great episode. Let's talk about these topics because it is good to point out nuance where nuance exists. I don't want to confuse people with nuance. I don't want to make them feel like this stuff's too hard for you by making it too complicated and too nuanced. But uh i the truth is there is nuance in life. And and if you go Dave Ramsey style, no nuance, all debt bad, you know, all investing should be done this way. Uh gross stock m mutual funds is the only way to invest.

you know, i well, you lose something. You lose something when you don't acknowledge the nuance. So we'd like to acknowledge the nuance here, even if we try to keep things as simple as we can. and recognize that ninety percent of the stuff out there when it comes to personal finance and investing can just be totally ignored.

And you can still be financially successful without doing anything we've talked about in this episode today. Um, I think if you can can understand the big picture, then the nuance becomes a lot more fun to talk about, dabble in a little bit, et cetera. As I mentioned at the beginning of the podcast, SoFi could help medical residents like you save thousands of dollars with exclusive rates and flexible terms for refinancing your student loans.

Visit sofi.com slash white code investor to see all the promotions and offers they've got waiting for you. One more time that's sofi.com slash white code investor. SoFi student loans are originated by SoFi Bank and a member of FDIC. Additional terms and conditions apply. NMLS 696-891. All right, don't forget about that Financial Educator Award. You go to whitecoatinvestor.com slash educator.

to get the slides to help you give presentations, to nominate somebody that's done a great job that you know of, and uh potentially to win yourself a free WCI online course for the best nomination. Thanks for those of you leaving five-star reviews. Thank you for telling friends about the podcast and the resources of the White Coat Investor. Not only does it help us to build our business and to reach other people with this important message, but more importantly, you're helping your friends.

Okay, we won't let you down. We're gonna give them good advice just like we gave you good advice. Uh, we're gonna connect them with the good guys in the financial services industry just like we connected you with the good guys and gals in the financial services industry. We want to deserve your trust. If there's ever a time we don't deserve your trust, please send us an email.

Right. Obviously we like negative feedback, negative criticism privately, just like you do. But send us an email, editor at whitecoatinvestor.com, let us know how we let you down. And let's see if we can't fix it so it doesn't happen to somebody else.

In the meantime, give us five-star reviews. It helps spread the word. Okay. A recent one came in. This one came in from QBrill. Said informative and entertaining. Great advice for physicians from a physician. Follow your doctor's advice and listen to this show. It is informative and entertaining. Five stars. Short and sweet. I love it. Thank you so much. Keep your head up and your shoulders back. You've got this. We're here to help. We'll see you next time on the White Coat Investor Podcast.